Give Warden's more spec points...

Much like paladins, wardens have to many lines to spec.

Giving wardens the ability to at least spec in a weapon line would be nice. Currently they can only do that at the cost of spec'ing in one of the two lines that the current meta requires, regrowth or nurture. Right now there is little to no diversity in how you can spec your warden.

It's time to change that.

Wed 4 Mar 2020 5:44 PM by Forlornhope

The only thing that would actually fix warden's and give them another viable spec is shield, and that's never going to happen. Sure there are a few token melee wardens out there, but you're correct it's never going to be strong enough to be the meta. They really just do not do enough damage even with higher weapon spec, plus the low tier of the weapon skill they're never going to be able to actively compete or even penetrate the defenses of other classes they're likely to meet.

Wed 4 Mar 2020 7:57 PM by imweasel

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Mar 2020 5:44 PM
The only thing that would actually fix warden's and give them another viable spec is shield, and that's never going to happen. Sure there are a few token melee wardens out there, but you're correct it's never going to be strong enough to be the meta. They really just do not do enough damage even with higher weapon spec, plus the low tier of the weapon skill they're never going to be able to actively compete or even penetrate the defenses of other classes they're likely to meet.

I agree with your assessment. However, gaining shield spec means nothing if a warden does not get more spec points..

Fixing wardens starts there. I would be fine with 2xspec points and a bump in damage tables, or 1.5spec with pallys and friars damage tables...

Wed 4 Mar 2020 9:04 PM by teiloh

The Warden class is fine.

Wed 4 Mar 2020 10:27 PM by The Skies Asunder

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Mar 2020 9:04 PM
The Warden class is fine.

They may be "fine" in a sense, but they are also dreadfully boring. I know it's a whataboutism, but seeing Paladin, and Friar get some decent changes makes being a Warden more depressing, and it would already be depressing without those things.

Wed 4 Mar 2020 11:15 PM by Forlornhope

imweasel wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Mar 2020 7:57 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Mar 2020 5:44 PM
The only thing that would actually fix warden's and give them another viable spec is shield, and that's never going to happen. Sure there are a few token melee wardens out there, but you're correct it's never going to be strong enough to be the meta. They really just do not do enough damage even with higher weapon spec, plus the low tier of the weapon skill they're never going to be able to actively compete or even penetrate the defenses of other classes they're likely to meet.

I agree with your assessment. However, gaining shield spec means nothing if a warden does not get more spec points..

Fixing wardens starts there. I would be fine with 2xspec points and a bump in damage tables, or 1.5spec with pallys and friars damage tables...

I mean, there's a problem with that though. You kind of need to pick what you want to do, drop your reg and spec into blade or be a peel/heel spec. You can't really expect to be able to get 42+ reg 40+ buff and comp 50 blade, that's not really reasonable. The reason it's the way it is now is more about the low damage table they're on, there's no point in specing them another way because the melee's trash.

Thu 5 Mar 2020 12:06 AM by

gruenesschaf

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Mar 2020 10:27 PM
They may be "fine" in a sense, but they are also dreadfully boring. I know it's a whataboutism, but seeing Paladin, and Friar get some decent changes makes being a Warden more depressing, and it would already be depressing without those things.

The difference is that a warden as it stands is in a pretty nice spot and in hibernia it's easily possible if not outright desirable to include one in a group, that was not (and for the most part even after the buffs still isn't) the case for paladin / friar.

Thu 5 Mar 2020 12:58 AM by gotwqqd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Mar 2020 12:06 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Mar 2020 10:27 PM
They may be "fine" in a sense, but they are also dreadfully boring. I know it's a whataboutism, but seeing Paladin, and Friar get some decent changes makes being a Warden more depressing, and it would already be depressing without those things.

The difference is that a warden as it stands is in a pretty nice spot and in hibernia it's easily possible if not outright desirable to include one in a group, that was not (and for the most part even after the buffs still isn't) the case for paladin / friar.

But it’s still the most uninspired, boring class in the game.

Thu 5 Mar 2020 1:05 AM by The Skies Asunder

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Mar 2020 12:06 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Mar 2020 10:27 PM
They may be "fine" in a sense, but they are also dreadfully boring. I know it's a whataboutism, but seeing Paladin, and Friar get some decent changes makes being a Warden more depressing, and it would already be depressing without those things.

The difference is that a warden as it stands is in a pretty nice spot and in hibernia it's easily possible if not outright desirable to include one in a group, that was not (and for the most part even after the buffs still isn't) the case for paladin / friar.

That is a totally fair assessment. The problem is that people loved Warden on live, once they got what basically amounts to an entire new class worth of abilities added, and their role became that of a sort of jack of all trades. In the current form the class is very one dimensional, and that dimension is unfun.

Thu 5 Mar 2020 1:49 AM by Riac

soooo.... the class is good but unfun? perhaps you should play a different class then?
they cant balance a class based on something as subjective as "fun".
is this another shortee post?

Thu 5 Mar 2020 2:20 AM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Mar 2020 1:49 AM
soooo.... the class is good but unfun? perhaps you should play a different class then?
they cant balance a class based on something as subjective as "fun".
is this another shortee post?

Good...as in needed for group play
But it’s an underwhelming bore

Thu 5 Mar 2020 2:48 AM by The Skies Asunder

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Mar 2020 1:49 AM
soooo.... the class is good but unfun? perhaps you should play a different class then?
they cant balance a class based on something as subjective as "fun".
is this another shortee post?

Nah, I am not specifically advocating for anything with Warden anymore. I have just accepted that they will always be incredibly boring on this server. Which is quite sad since it was my favorite class for quite a lot of my time playing DAoC. The devs don't believe it needs adjusted, because it fits into groups okay, and balancing just on fun alone isn't as easy, since as you said, it is subjective. Though I never hear anyone advocating for how much fun their Warden is.

Thu 5 Mar 2020 4:28 AM by easytoremember

You could give warden infinite spec points and they'd still be trash

Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:09 PM by tyrantanic

Bumping to add some suggestions.

- Add cure Nearsight at 20 and 40 Regrowth.
- Add shield spec.

Both would allow for more group compositions from my perspective. I don't want to advocate for Wardens to get the same treatment as Friars (Greater Heals, group HoT, more spec points) but I think their role in the group could be enhanced. Allowing for cure NS removes the necessity (at least in a caster setup) for two Druids. Adding shield spec would allow for Wardens to be an effective peeler in a group regardless of the setup.

Two prospective specs come to mind with the current spec points:
- 45 Nurture, 42 Shield, 20 Regrowth, 10 Blades (peel spec)
- 45 Nurture, 23 Shield, 41 Regrowth, 10 Blades (support spec)

While more spec points would be nice I don't think it's necessary. Providing cure NS and spec shield would go a long way and force Wardens to give something up to have either or both.

Thu 2 Apr 2020 9:54 PM by Xeladrich

tyrantanic wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Apr 2020 6:09 PM
Bumping to add some suggestions.

- Add cure Nearsight at 20 and 40 Regrowth.
- Add shield spec.

Both would allow for more group compositions from my perspective. I don't want to advocate for Wardens to get the same treatment as Friars (Greater Heals, group HoT, more spec points) but I think their role in the group could be enhanced. Allowing for cure NS removes the necessity (at least in a caster setup) for two Druids. Adding shield spec would allow for Wardens to be an effective peeler in a group regardless of the setup.

Two prospective specs come to mind with the current spec points:
- 45 Nurture, 42 Shield, 20 Regrowth, 10 Blades (peel spec)
- 45 Nurture, 23 Shield, 41 Regrowth, 10 Blades (support spec)

While more spec points would be nice I don't think it's necessary. Providing cure NS and spec shield would go a long way and force Wardens to give something up to have either or both.

*

And now warden is more like resist/buff bot with Aotg/twf RAs

Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:23 PM by Isavyr

You guys don't recognize the value in a warden as is. It's in a good place. It doesn't need to have shield spec. If it did, it'd become a necessity in all groups.

I don't like the idea of adding cure nearsight either because of the role it serves. It would probably be too easy for Hib to remove nearsights.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 2:24 AM by gotwqqd

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:23 PM
You guys don't recognize the value in a warden as is. It's in a good place. It doesn't need to have shield spec. If it did, it'd become a necessity in all groups.

I don't like the idea of adding cure nearsight either because of the role it serves. It would probably be too easy for Hib to remove nearsights.

It’s not about it’s viability
It’s about being boring as hell

Fri 3 Apr 2020 4:10 AM by Neso

what do you find so boring about them?
some could say clerics are in a worse 'fun' spot compared to other heals

Fri 3 Apr 2020 4:23 AM by joshisanonymous

Neso wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 4:10 AM
what do you find so boring about them?
some could say clerics are in a worse 'fun' spot compared to other heals

It's shocking to me how many people want to play clerics here because that's certainly my opinion of them. Druids and healers look way more fun as primary healers. But that's neither here nor there as far as balance goes.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 6:30 AM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 2:24 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:23 PM
You guys don't recognize the value in a warden as is. It's in a good place. It doesn't need to have shield spec. If it did, it'd become a necessity in all groups.

I don't like the idea of adding cure nearsight either because of the role it serves. It would probably be too easy for Hib to remove nearsights.

It’s not about it’s viability
It’s about being boring as hell

balancing around fun or how not boring a class is, is such a terrible idea. i cant believe ppl suggest things like this. balancing around subjective metrics is ridiculous. dont play a warden if you dont like it.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 7:04 PM by tyrantanic

Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 6:30 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 2:24 AM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Apr 2020 10:23 PM
You guys don't recognize the value in a warden as is. It's in a good place. It doesn't need to have shield spec. If it did, it'd become a necessity in all groups.

I don't like the idea of adding cure nearsight either because of the role it serves. It would probably be too easy for Hib to remove nearsights.

It’s not about it’s viability
It’s about being boring as hell

balancing around fun or how not boring a class is, is such a terrible idea. i cant believe ppl suggest things like this. balancing around subjective metrics is ridiculous. dont play a warden if you dont like it.

I agree that no class should be balanced around being "fun". My suggestions were aimed to open up group configurations on Hib. The same argument(s) could be made for Mid setups as well regarding cure NS for Shamans. I understand that the line needs to be drawn somewhere for cross realm abilities but I think allowing for more variety in groups is a good thing. I personally hate having to double up on classes to form a solid group. Mid still has this problem on Live which is really a design flaw of the Healer class, imo. Nonetheless, I think balance on this server is pretty good overall.

Fri 3 Apr 2020 11:43 PM by Riac

tyrantanic wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 7:04 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 6:30 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Apr 2020 2:24 AM
It’s not about it’s viability
It’s about being boring as hell

balancing around fun or how not boring a class is, is such a terrible idea. i cant believe ppl suggest things like this. balancing around subjective metrics is ridiculous. dont play a warden if you dont like it.

I agree that no class should be balanced around being "fun". My suggestions were aimed to open up group configurations on Hib. The same argument(s) could be made for Mid setups as well regarding cure NS for Shamans. I understand that the line needs to be drawn somewhere for cross realm abilities but I think allowing for more variety in groups is a good thing. I personally hate having to double up on classes to form a solid group. Mid still has this problem on Live which is really a design flaw of the Healer class, imo. Nonetheless, I think balance on this server is pretty good overall.

so youre wanting to replace a druid, who has bof and di as well as other important RAs, with a warden because he can cure NS? ok, good luck to your group.