Minstrel pets should be buffed.

Level 21 BD caster pets, unbuffed, no resist debuff - by comparison

https://pastebin.com/92Vg8eL1
999 damage in 1:09s = 14.5 DPS

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewto ... age#p55070
Ellyll sage damage: 1037 damage in 40 seconds = 25.925 DPS

Here is live, vs a 661 AF target with Croc ring (Sage is unbuffed)
[07:57:11] 9 damage was converted to endurance and power!
[07:57:11] The Ellyll sage hits you for 174 damage.
[07:57:14] 10 damage was converted to endurance and power!
[07:57:14] The Ellyll sage hits you for 195 damage.
[07:57:18] 9 damage was converted to endurance and power!
[07:57:18] The Ellyll sage hits you for 171 damage.
[07:57:23] 9 damage was converted to endurance and power!
[07:57:23] The Ellyll sage hits you for 174 damage.
[07:57:27] 9 damage was converted to endurance and power!
[07:57:27] The Ellyll sage hits you for 171 damage.

= 932 / 16s =58.22 DPS. Even on live, a level 53 pet does about the same damage as a max level forest heart or Enchanter Pet on Phoenix, without debuffs. I don't have exact numbers, but afaik forest hearts nuke for 120-150 every 2.8ish seconds, and enchanter pets 150-180 every 2.8ish seconds as well (no debuffs)

Conclusion: complaints about Minstrel pet DPS are completely unjustified. Any nerfs done based on such conjecture should be re-evaluated, IMO.

---- Additional data
https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/b7f3cd34-9c7c-4e50-8efc-e5ef1e3a06e7
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12029&start=320#p95968

For further investigation, need precise numbers on other pets' DPS

Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:41 PM by Enyore

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:39 PM
Conclusion: complaints about Minstrel pet DPS are completely unjustified. Any nerfs done based on such conjecture should be re-evaluated, IMO.

Fine, but lets make it so that casting charm spell cost 5% endo as it did in 1.65.

Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:45 PM by teiloh

Enyore wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:41 PM
Fine, but lets make it so that casting charm spell cost 5% endo as it did in 1.65.

Minstrel charm never cost endurance in 1.65. But this is a reminder that every single other chant, which did, essentially got a huge Endo buff. Which helps explain why Skalds have outnumbered Minstrels on Phoenix since day 1.

Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:36 PM by The Skies Asunder

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:45 PM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:41 PM
Fine, but lets make it so that casting charm spell cost 5% endo as it did in 1.65.

Minstrel charm never cost endurance in 1.65. But this is a reminder that every single other chant, which did, essentially got a huge Endo buff. Which helps explain why Skalds have outnumbered Minstrels on Phoenix since day 1.

Well, Skald is also easy mode either way. Where as Minstrel is at least somewhat more complicated. I disagree that their pets need a buff though, Live is a bad comparison for most things.

Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:37 PM by Enyore

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:45 PM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:41 PM
Fine, but lets make it so that casting charm spell cost 5% endo as it did in 1.65.

Minstrel charm never cost endurance in 1.65. But this is a reminder that every single other chant, which did, essentially got a huge Endo buff. Which helps explain why Skalds have outnumbered Minstrels on Phoenix since day 1.

When the chant refresh itself it did not cost endo, but when you start it it did - so spamming the charm spell was at a big endo cost.... It was the same on Uthgaard.

Sat 8 Feb 2020 9:27 PM by teiloh

Enyore wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:37 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:45 PM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 7:41 PM
Fine, but lets make it so that casting charm spell cost 5% endo as it did in 1.65.

Minstrel charm never cost endurance in 1.65. But this is a reminder that every single other chant, which did, essentially got a huge Endo buff. Which helps explain why Skalds have outnumbered Minstrels on Phoenix since day 1.

When the chant refresh itself it did not cost endo, but when you start it it did - so spamming the charm spell was at a big endo cost.... It was the same on Uthgaard.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but iirc It cost end to cast it initially, charming a pet that you had already charmed did not cost endurance.

Sat 8 Feb 2020 9:28 PM by teiloh

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:36 PM
Well, Skald is also easy mode either way. Where as Minstrel is at least somewhat more complicated. I disagree that their pets need a buff though, Live is a bad comparison for most things.

I only use live to get damage stats, since the pets on live are largely the same as they were at the 1.65 patch level. This is how most Minstrel pets were performing on 1.65 which is the stated reference point of Phoenix.

Sat 8 Feb 2020 10:40 PM by Riac

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 9:28 PM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:36 PM
Well, Skald is also easy mode either way. Where as Minstrel is at least somewhat more complicated. I disagree that their pets need a buff though, Live is a bad comparison for most things.

I only use live to get damage stats, since the pets on live are largely the same as they were at the 1.65 patch level. This is how most Minstrel pets were performing on 1.65 which is the stated reference point of Phoenix.

this is just crazy. also, the whole 1.65 is a bench mark is out the window. there all sorts of fucked up things that arent 1.65 such as weapon styles.

Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:59 AM by Loki

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 8:36 PM
Well, Skald is also easy mode either way. Where as Minstrel is at least somewhat more complicated.

I agree with skalds being ez mode, but the other side of the coin is they are also limited. Whereas a minstrel's pet can prompt a different play style compared to the next.

Anyway, I wanna see gruenes' answer to this thread, he is literally the reason this thread started. Agreeing with a buffoon that mobs don't behave like on live and have been toned down, as if that isn't a normal consequence of a classic based custom shard.

Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:05 AM by joshisanonymous

The evidence that you actually do have here suggests that using 3 level 21 BD caster pets that will die if someone sneezes on them yields half the damage that an OJ minstrel pet that can't be CC'd and definitely takes more than a sneeze to kill does. I don't see how that means minstrel pets should be buffed, especially with the confluence of minstrels who are not running with OJ ellyl sages but instead red or purple barguests that are quite difficult to kill and, again, cannot be CC'd because of the mechanics of the minstrel's charm. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure minstrels need help in this area.

Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:44 AM by teiloh

Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 8 Feb 2020 10:40 PM
this is just crazy. also, the whole 1.65 is a bench mark is out the window. there all sorts of fucked up things that arent 1.65 such as weapon styles.

Well, we'll have to get clarification from the design team here because this is what we hear all the time. The rule applies until it doesn't, after public and private discussions. But the reference point is still meaningful for the majority of pet capabilities. It is what almost every single other pet is balanced around (Chanter, SM, Cab). Even a week ago SM pets were reverted to live-like, simply based on this core design principle.

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:05 AM
The evidence that you actually do have here suggests that using 3 level 21 BD caster pets that will die if someone sneezes on them yields half the damage that an OJ minstrel pet that can't be CC'd and definitely takes more than a sneeze to kill does. I don't see how that means minstrel pets should be buffed, especially with the confluence of minstrels who are not running with OJ ellyl sages but instead red or purple barguests that are quite difficult to kill and, again, cannot be CC'd because of the mechanics of the minstrel's charm. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure minstrels need help in this area.

I'm being extremely generous to BD pets here. We all know they're not that fragile, and singling out each BD caster pet to kill takes aeons.

I did not buff them.

I used a very weak spec.

I did not debuff for them.

I did not count the commander's damage.

I ignored the fact that they snare/lifetap.

In fact, ellyll sages are and always have been extremely fragile and weak in melee. There are literally 0 pets Minstrels can charm anywhere that can do even half the DPS of a properly specced and played Dark BD's pets can do. Shall I demonstrate?

Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:28 AM by MrWolf

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:44 AM
There are literally 0 pets Minstrels can charm anywhere that can do even half the DPS of a properly specced and played Dark BD's pets can do. Shall I demonstrate?

Dark BD pets mezzed DPS = 0.0
And BD cannot unmezz them.

End of discussion.

Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:15 AM by Forlornhope

You're right! Let's allow their purple pets to stealth as well... Sarcasm aside, until you can actually cc their red and purple pets gtfo with this nonsense thread lol.

Sun 9 Feb 2020 12:47 PM by teiloh

MrWolf wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:28 AM
Dark BD pets mezzed DPS = 0.0
And BD cannot unmezz them.

End of discussion.

That's why you ask your healers to do it for you.

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:15 AM
You're right! Let's allow their purple pets to stealth as well... Sarcasm aside, until you can actually cc their red and purple pets gtfo with this nonsense thread lol.

Stun is CC.

Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:47 PM by joshisanonymous

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:44 AM
Well, we'll have to get clarification from the design team here because this is what we hear all the time. The rule applies until it doesn't, after public and private discussions. But the reference point is still meaningful for the majority of pet capabilities. It is what almost every single other pet is balanced around (Chanter, SM, Cab). Even a week ago SM pets were reverted to live-like, simply based on this core design principle.

I'm being extremely generous to BD pets here. We all know they're not that fragile, and singling out each BD caster pet to kill takes aeons.

I did not buff them.

I used a very weak spec.

I did not debuff for them.

I did not count the commander's damage.

I ignored the fact that they snare/lifetap.

In fact, ellyll sages are and always have been extremely fragile and weak in melee. There are literally 0 pets Minstrels can charm anywhere that can do even half the DPS of a properly specced and played Dark BD's pets can do. Shall I demonstrate?

The fact that you think level 21 caster pets are hard to kill or that they ever receive buffs while simultaneously arguing that ellyll sages are "extremely fragile" means you're not being "extremely generous", you're being ridiculous and disingenuous. Take your un-CCable red/purple pets and be happy with them.

PS. On live, SM/chanter/etc pets have been buffed enormously, made level 50 even, because they were seen as being too weak. You're literally arguing here that they're too strong compared to what minstrels can get (i.e., again, red/purple un-CCable pets).

Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:39 PM by mattymc

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:47 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:44 AM
Well, we'll have to get clarification from the design team here because this is what we hear all the time. The rule applies until it doesn't, after public and private discussions. But the reference point is still meaningful for the majority of pet capabilities. It is what almost every single other pet is balanced around (Chanter, SM, Cab). Even a week ago SM pets were reverted to live-like, simply based on this core design principle.

I'm being extremely generous to BD pets here. We all know they're not that fragile, and singling out each BD caster pet to kill takes aeons.

I did not buff them.

I used a very weak spec.

I did not debuff for them.

I did not count the commander's damage.

I ignored the fact that they snare/lifetap.

In fact, ellyll sages are and always have been extremely fragile and weak in melee. There are literally 0 pets Minstrels can charm anywhere that can do even half the DPS of a properly specced and played Dark BD's pets can do. Shall I demonstrate?

The fact that you think level 21 caster pets are hard to kill or that they ever receive buffs while simultaneously arguing that ellyll sages are "extremely fragile" means you're not being "extremely generous", you're being ridiculous and disingenuous. Take your un-CCable red/purple pets and be happy with them.

PS. On live, SM/chanter/etc pets have been buffed enormously, made level 50 even, because they were seen as being too weak. You're literally arguing here that they're too strong compared to what minstrels can get (i.e., again, red/purple un-CCable pets).

Your being extremely nice iMO....what counts is here on PHOENIX, period --- Mezz BD pets --- they are out of fight forever --- game over --- assuming they are anywhere near to begin with --- regardless of level. Not so of a mini pet

Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM by teiloh

mattymc wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:39 PM
Your being extremely nice iMO....what counts is here on PHOENIX, period --- Mezz BD pets --- they are out of fight forever --- game over --- assuming they are anywhere near to begin with --- regardless of level. Not so of a mini pet

My pets never had a problem with getting mezzed. Talk to your healers or SM, maybe? Or manage your pets better?

Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:43 AM by teiloh

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:47 PM
The fact that you think level 21 caster pets are hard to kill or that they ever receive buffs while simultaneously arguing that ellyll sages are "extremely fragile" means you're not being "extremely generous", you're being ridiculous and disingenuous. Take your un-CCable red/purple pets and be happy with them.

PS. On live, SM/chanter/etc pets have been buffed enormously, made level 50 even, because they were seen as being too weak. You're literally arguing here that they're too strong compared to what minstrels can get (i.e., again, red/purple un-CCable pets).

BD caster pets are A LOT tougher than you're making them out to be. It takes 2-3 nukes to kill each one of them last I checked - then again they will rarely be attacking your pets when there are 6-8 better targets to go after.

Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:47 AM by Riac

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:43 AM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:47 PM
The fact that you think level 21 caster pets are hard to kill or that they ever receive buffs while simultaneously arguing that ellyll sages are "extremely fragile" means you're not being "extremely generous", you're being ridiculous and disingenuous. Take your un-CCable red/purple pets and be happy with them.

PS. On live, SM/chanter/etc pets have been buffed enormously, made level 50 even, because they were seen as being too weak. You're literally arguing here that they're too strong compared to what minstrels can get (i.e., again, red/purple un-CCable pets).

BD caster pets are A LOT tougher than you're making them out to be. It takes 2-3 nukes to kill each one of them last I checked - then again they will rarely be attacking your pets when there are 6-8 better targets to go after.

or just nuke the main pets 2-3 times?

Mon 10 Feb 2020 2:47 AM by teiloh

Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:47 AM
or just nuke the main pets 2-3 times?

Main pet doesn't die that fast and your main pet should not be chasing people far without interrupt support from you

Mon 10 Feb 2020 7:24 AM by Sepplord

people still trying to have a reasonable discussion with telioh?
Don't get baited

Mon 10 Feb 2020 8:43 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 7:24 AM
people still trying to have a reasonable discussion with telioh?
Don't get baited

Apparently he's a master baiter.
.
.

.
.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:11 AM by mattymc

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
mattymc wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:39 PM
Your being extremely nice iMO....what counts is here on PHOENIX, period --- Mezz BD pets --- they are out of fight forever --- game over --- assuming they are anywhere near to begin with --- regardless of level. Not so of a mini pet

My pets never had a problem with getting mezzed. Talk to your healers or SM, maybe? Or manage your pets better?

This statement demonstrates your inability to grasp reality and renders anything you say as suspect....at best..it's like you never actually played the game it's so far off base.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:30 AM by Riac

mattymc wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
mattymc wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:39 PM
Your being extremely nice iMO....what counts is here on PHOENIX, period --- Mezz BD pets --- they are out of fight forever --- game over --- assuming they are anywhere near to begin with --- regardless of level. Not so of a mini pet

My pets never had a problem with getting mezzed. Talk to your healers or SM, maybe? Or manage your pets better?

This statement demonstrates your inability to grasp reality and renders anything you say as suspect....at best..it's like you never actually played the game it's so far off base.

your sm? are a lot of groups running sms these days?

Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:12 AM by teiloh

mattymc wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
This statement demonstrates your inability to grasp reality and renders anything you say as suspect....at best..it's like you never actually played the game it's so far off base.

I know how to break off on inc and how to stagger my pets. That's what happens when you play a Minstrel. I rarely get mezzed on inc, and when I do there's an even lower chance it catches any of my pets.

Sat 15 Feb 2020 5:30 PM by mattymc

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:12 AM
mattymc wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:11 AM
This statement demonstrates your inability to grasp reality and renders anything you say as suspect....at best..it's like you never actually played the game it's so far off base.

I know how to break off on inc and how to stagger my pets. That's what happens when you play a Minstrel. I rarely get mezzed on inc, and when I do there's an even lower chance it catches any of my pets.

Which just means your pets are doing nothing and you're dead or soon to be dead

Mon 17 Feb 2020 2:01 AM by teiloh

mattymc wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Feb 2020 5:30 PM
Which just means your pets are doing nothing and you're dead or soon to be dead

Yes it's much better to get mezzed on inc and die

Fri 21 Feb 2020 9:13 AM by teiloh

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:30 AM
your sm? are a lot of groups running sms these days?

They're more than fine in caster groups.

Fri 21 Feb 2020 10:27 AM by Sepplord

behold the huge flood of midgard caster groups

Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:17 PM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Feb 2020 10:27 AM
behold the huge flood of midgard caster groups

Your snark is spot on, but Mid Caster groups are scary effective. I would rather face an Alb Caster group or a Hib Caster group than a Mid Caster group. The reason you don't see more of them is that Mid Tank groups are that much better.

Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:35 PM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Feb 2020 1:17 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 21 Feb 2020 10:27 AM
behold the huge flood of midgard caster groups

Your snark is spot on, but Mid Caster groups are scary effective. I would rather face an Alb Caster group or a Hib Caster group than a Mid Caster group. The reason you don't see more of them is that Mid Tank groups are that much better.

I disagree, maybe not from the actual powerlevel perspective. Maybe you are correct with that, i don't have enough knowledge about 8vs8. That would explain the low percentage of midgard-castergroups in regards to midgard-groups in general.
But i believe that people (Especially set-groups) decide their playstyle first, and chose realm accordingly. And it is evident, that off all the castergroups the fewest chose to play/stay in midgard. The Meta is that castergroup-players will dominantly think of midgard last as realm to go to.

Sat 22 Feb 2020 9:29 AM by teiloh

That's because Midgard is braindead ezmode on tanks. A proper Mid caster group is gonna have BDs, and BDs are both the game's highest DPS and best interrupter, as well as the most survivable caster.

Sat 22 Feb 2020 12:34 PM by MrWolf

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Feb 2020 9:29 AM
That's because Midgard is braindead ezmode on tanks.

Yep. Stun assist nuke nuke/repeat is really more brainfull

Sun 23 Feb 2020 5:56 PM by mattymc

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Feb 2020 9:29 AM
That's because Midgard is braindead ezmode on tanks. A proper Mid caster group is gonna have BDs, and BDs are both the game's highest DPS and best interrupter, as well as the most survivable caster.

I often think you cant propose sillier stuff --- and then you do

Tue 25 Feb 2020 10:50 AM by teiloh

mattymc wrote: ↑
Sun 23 Feb 2020 5:56 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Feb 2020 9:29 AM
That's because Midgard is braindead ezmode on tanks. A proper Mid caster group is gonna have BDs, and BDs are both the game's highest DPS and best interrupter, as well as the most survivable caster.

I often think you cant propose sillier stuff --- and then you do

Shows how utterly spoiled and braindead mids are to not run BDs