Bow classes after HP buff - Phoenix Freeshard

[TLDR] Give free level of Master of Archery every 5 points starting at spec level 10

I think the bow classes after the hp buff are in a really awkward state. While Ranger and Hunter do ok, it's mostly because the successful ones invest the minimum needed to use the bow effectively and then invest a lot into melee/durability. The true sniper spec is dead as you will need bubble + 4-5 normal shots (without rapid fire) to kill a caster or soft target after the HP change, even more once legion + pot heal comes into play. Killing a target before it's out of reach is becoming really rare, forcing you to either add or group up.

To help bow while only mildly buff the hybrid spec'ed archers, I would give "autotrain" mastery of archery to the bow spec starting at 10 (level1) and increasing every 5 points. This means a scout with spec 45 in bow would have level 8 for free, while a hunter with 40 bow level 7 and a hybrid ranger with 32 in bow would have level 5 for free. Granted that everyone should have level 2 in mastery of archery (due to its great efficiency at that level) this is about a 11% damage increase for our example scout, 9% for the hunter and 3% for the ranger. You could then still invest regular ra-points to raise to a higher level of mastery of archery.As hunters and scouts usually can spec higher into bow they profit more from the bonus as rangers.

Further, I do not really agree on the scout shield style tbh, because it just creates another willsoning tool instead of being really relevant for solo play and the scout keeps being weak in melee. I'd add an AF buff to scouts in shield spec (same as hunter and ranger), add mastery of arcane as ra-option and increase the weapon skill table of both slash and thrust to the valewalker table instead of that ridiculous root style.

For more reliable performance of bow I'd also consider to change penetrating arrow to 35% at level 1 and 50% at level 2, but change the effect, that the shot damage is applied on a miss, block, evade, bubble. Meaning a blocked shot or into pbt will still deal 35% damage with penetrating arrow 1.

Mon 6 Jan 2020 1:23 PM by inoeth

what about giving the scout a pet and free purge or a bazooka?

imo the scout is in a good condition right now. as there are just 2 solo scouts (me and skai) your suggested changed would just buff all the zergnoobs and i highly disagree on that!

Mon 6 Jan 2020 3:13 PM by Horus

I think an easier change would just tweak the bow spec dmg formula to be more potent at higher levels. If I have 65 composite bow spec I should hit much harder as I have sacrificed any chance of doing melee dmg compared to a melee archer who has like 24 comp spec. Right now the bow dmg diff is minimal.

Archers are forced into being 2nd rate melee toons as there is just no point to spec the bow.

Tue 7 Jan 2020 10:23 AM by Sepplord

The main problem archers have is that they are perma-stealth classes and getting killed by an invisisble toon from range without chance of fighting back is basically the most unfun thing that exists. But that is what archers want to be able to do.
The balancing problem comes with the "chance to fight back"...because against an archer anything that is "fighting back" interrupts the archer and then THEY don't have a real chance to regain initiative and die against casters. So this is already a nightmare to balance.

Adding melee into the equation it becomes even harder. Because you cannot make archers strong in melee, because then why play a melee character? Just play an archer with strong melee and have range-ability on top. So how do you balance it? Mediocre range + mediocre melee = archers cry that they get killed in melee, and visible classes cry because they still get instant-killed out of stealth from range as soon as multiple archers assist.

And to add insult to injury to the balancingnightmare of archers, there are three different ones that all want comparable archery

Not really sure why i wrote this, but these are a few points to keep in mind while thinking about how/if archers need to be improved.

Tue 7 Jan 2020 2:42 PM by jwalker

Bow performance got two big indirect nerfs lately

1) the vulnerability change - no other class could ALWAYS have the optimal damage type which lead to a 7% damage loss vs. anything but casters
2) hp change - the amount of damage before you go melee or the target is out of range kept the same, while the amount of damage to kill a target was increased.

@Horus This is actually what I'm proposing. For archers mastery of archery adds 100% to damage (unlike mastery of arms) which you would get for free @higher specs. Composite spec alone does favor very high rr classes already enough so a bonus based on spec is the better way, IMO.

Tue 7 Jan 2020 4:05 PM by Pao

Archer need some love. Bow is too weak. Was never that weak at anytime during the live patches. It’s a custom nerf we have here. People enjoy archers that’s the reason every rpg has an archer type class; why no love here?

Tue 7 Jan 2020 4:38 PM by Forlornhope

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Jan 2020 1:23 PM
what about giving the scout a pet and free purge or a bazooka?

imo the scout is in a good condition right now. as there are just 2 solo scouts (me and skai) your suggested changed would just buff all the zergnoobs and i highly disagree on that!

How do you think that the class is in a good place when there are only two people masochistic enough to play a solo scout?

Tue 7 Jan 2020 5:09 PM by Sepplord

Pao wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Jan 2020 4:05 PM
Archer need some love. Bow is too weak. Was never that weak at anytime during the live patches. It’s a custom nerf we have here. People enjoy archers that’s the reason every rpg has an archer type class; why no love here?

Should be easy to prove on pendragon if that's really the case

jwalker wrote: Bow performance got two big indirect nerfs lately

1) the vulnerability change - no other class could ALWAYS have the optimal damage type which lead to a 7% damage loss vs. anything but casters
2) hp change - the amount of damage before you go melee or the target is out of range kept the same, while the amount of damage to kill a target was increased.

@Horus This is actually what I'm proposing. For archers mastery of archery adds 100% to damage (unlike mastery of arms) which you would get for free @higher specs. Composite spec alone does favor very high rr classes already enough so a bonus based on spec is the better way, IMO.

I agree in general, but i am confused how you came to "7%dmg loss". Going from 110% to 105% is a 4,55%dmg loss or what am i missing/brainfarting?

Thu 9 Jan 2020 5:24 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 7 Jan 2020 5:09 PM
I agree in general, but i am confused how you came to "7%dmg loss". Going from 110% to 105% is a 4,55%dmg loss or what am i missing/brainfarting?

So when you're factoring in resistance it's not 100% damage. 100-26(item resists)+10(armor vuln) or 100-26+5 is the new difference.. Not including racials. So it's 84% dmg vs 79%. 79 is 94% of 84 meaning it's actually about 6% difference... Only factoring in resistance.. That's also depends on if armor vuln affects primary or secondary resistances which I'm not sure of.

Thu 9 Jan 2020 10:04 PM by thirian24

It also doesn't help that everyone is running around with spec AF now too.

Sat 11 Jan 2020 6:06 AM by daytonchambers

Mastery of Archery increases bow speed. Like haste does for melee. The faster you shoot the less damage each shot does. So, basically, you want every archer to be forced into doing less damage per shot, with no say in the matter. Miss me with that bullshit

To address the concerns about being damaged before you even realize it's happening.... BT being popped or an arrow hit needs a noticeable sound effect, perhaps a visual animation. Hell, the sound files already exist for this. That starts the fight fairly with both parties immediately knowing they just got put into combat. Siege damage could use this as well.

To improve archery some of the "new" abilities like steady shot could be added which would give us a tool to attempt to regain initiative, or access to MoC, or perhaps a slight range increase every X levels specced past 35 to have a reason to invest further. Longshot and Volley should be part of the archery line (likely in nerfed versions), and their RAs would decrease cooldown for LS, and increase the radius or number of arrows released for volley.

Sat 11 Jan 2020 8:09 AM by gotwqqd

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jan 2020 6:06 AM
Mastery of Archery increases bow speed. Like haste does for melee. The faster you shoot the less damage each shot does. So, basically, you want every archer to be forced into doing less damage per shot, with no say in the matter. Miss me with that bullshit

To address the concerns about being damaged before you even realize it's happening.... BT being popped or an arrow hit needs a noticeable sound effect, perhaps a visual animation. Hell, the sound files already exist for this. That starts the fight fairly with both parties immediately knowing they just got put into combat. Siege damage could use this as well.

To improve archery some of the "new" abilities like steady shot could be added, or perhaps a slight range increase every X levels specced past 35 to have a reason to invest further. Longshot and Volley should be part of the archery line (likely in nerfed versions), and their RAs would decrease cooldown for LS, and increase the radius or number of arrows released for volley.

This is not quite true in context

When you have fame dps bow with different speeds , yes the damage per shot on faster bow will be less

But the increase in attack speed (melee or bow or spell casting) from increase quick/dex or buff spells does not drop the dps

Sat 11 Jan 2020 10:53 AM by daytonchambers

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jan 2020 8:09 AM
This is not quite true in context

When you have fame dps bow with different speeds , yes the damage per shot on faster bow will be less

But the increase in attack speed (melee or bow or spell casting) from increase quick/dex or buff spells does not drop the dps

I never once said DPS (damage per second), I said damage per shot. So in the context I presented I was not wrong.

I don't want the top end shaved off for a slight increase in draw time. If I want that I can switch to a faster bow or toggle rapidfire. Forcing it on everyone by archery spec reduces our options, it doesn't help in any constructive way.

Sat 11 Jan 2020 12:14 PM by gotwqqd

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jan 2020 10:53 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jan 2020 8:09 AM
This is not quite true in context

When you have fame dps bow with different speeds , yes the damage per shot on faster bow will be less

But the increase in attack speed (melee or bow or spell casting) from increase quick/dex or buff spells does not drop the dps

I never once said DPS (damage per second), I said damage per shot. So in the context I presented I was not wrong.

I don't want the top end shaved off for a slight increase in draw time. If I want that I can switch to a faster bow or toggle rapidfire. Forcing it on everyone by archery spec reduces our options, it doesn't help in any constructive way.

Your completely wrong
When you get to deliver attacks faster from stats, stat increases or things like celerity you’re damage remains the same while time between attacks is smaller

Sat 11 Jan 2020 3:43 PM by daytonchambers

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jan 2020 12:14 PM
Your completely wrong
When you get to deliver attacks faster from stats, stat increases or things like celerity you’re damage remains the same while time between attacks is smaller

I read this and thought "I'm gonna go out to a test dummy and proved this guy wrong, effin noob!"

Sure as shit, I was the wrong one. My bad.

Tested on a dummy with melee and haste rather than dumping RA stones. What I discovered was:

Styled swing damage goes down after a haste proc fires increasing swing speed. Unstyled damage, like archery damage, was not affected by an increase in speed. So ya, I stand corrected. Game is damn near two decades old and I'm still getting schooled on stuff

I still feel that my initial comment and the archery changes I proposed would be of more value to the shooters out there than just a bit more shot speed without breaking the classes nor making them overpowered.

Sat 11 Jan 2020 3:54 PM by jwalker

Edit: right when i responded daytonchambers redeemed himself 👍

Bow attacks are like unstyled melee attacks. If you use the same weapon but increase your haste effect via quickness, mastery of arms/archery or haste (for melee), your damage per hit does NOT decrease, while you swing more often and your dps increases. This also means your crit shot will do the same damage. Arrows only add a % bonus to too hit and damage.
This is very Different to the bonus damage you get once you use a style. The style damage adds to your unstyled damage (on top) and will add a flat damage over time (damage per second or dps).

This also means if you normally do 100 unstyled +50 style damage and you increase your swing 20% faster, you will do 100 unstyled (stays the same) +40 style damage (decreased damage per hit but same dps)

But bow follows the rules for unstyled melee which is NEVER decreased by haste effects (as long as you use the same weapon)

Sat 11 Jan 2020 4:37 PM by gotwqqd

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jan 2020 3:43 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 11 Jan 2020 12:14 PM
Your completely wrong
When you get to deliver attacks faster from stats, stat increases or things like celerity you’re damage remains the same while time between attacks is smaller

I read this and thought "I'm gonna go out to a test dummy and proved this guy wrong, effin noob!"

Sure as shit, I was the wrong one. My bad.

Tested on a dummy with melee and haste rather than dumping RA stones. What I discovered was:

Styled swing damage goes down after a haste proc fires increasing swing speed. Unstyled damage, like archery damage, was not affected by an increase in speed. So ya, I stand corrected. Game is damn near two decades old and I'm still getting schooled on stuff

I still feel that my initial comment and the archery changes I proposed would be of more value to the shooters out there than just a bit more shot speed without breaking the classes nor making them overpowered.

But I still think that melee attacks get hosed by the reduction of the styles portion of damage.
When archers and casters damage is not reduced.
This could be a quick and easy fix to aid the melee players in regards to the hit points fix implemented. But it doesn’t help bow users poor damage and lack of reason to spec high into the archery line

Sun 12 Jan 2020 2:45 PM by jk123

Bow damage is subpar. No one can argue with that.
The immediate fix is easy: Get rid of the custom Phoenix feature of a nerfed Critshot. Do away with Critshot-Immunity.
Remember the Critshot will still not land, if the requirements are not met, yet given the circumstances the damage can be good,
if you manage to land 2 crits.
After the hp-buff this NEEDS to be done really, there are no excuses.

Apart from the damage fix the line would only need a bit more utility to be worth and fun speccing into it again.

How about a reasonably measured debuff-shot (like 15-20% Dehaste.... probably existing caster debuffs could inspire here)?
Or debuff your own arrow-dmg? Maybe a offensive proc like thanes have?
Or a small dot-shot, that stacks with a possible weaponproc?
Siege-shot? Amnesia-shot?

I think the devs have gone the right way to improve the scout's unique defining line, the shield-spec. And in a very reasonable, sensible way.
It adds a lot of utility, while not overpowering them or their stealthgroup. This could have a model character.
And should be done as well for the hunter and probably also for the ranger. The hunter needs it's charming ability tweaked. It could be so much fun to get to play with somewhat useful charmable pets.
Besides there are ZERO pets for a hunter to charm in the frontiers at the moment, while it is a pet-to-go paradise for the mentalists, minstrels and sorcerors out there.

Sun 12 Jan 2020 5:01 PM by Azuell

jk123 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Jan 2020 2:45 PM
Bow damage is subpar. No one can argue with that.
The immediate fix is easy: Get rid of the custom Phoenix feature of a nerfed Critshot. Do away with Critshot-Immunity.
Remember the Critshot will still not land, if the requirements are not met, yet given the circumstances the damage can be good,
if you manage to land 2 crits.
After the hp-buff this NEEDS to be done really, there are no excuses.

Apart from the damage fix the line would only need a bit more utility to be worth and fun speccing into it again.

How about a reasonably measured debuff-shot (like 15-20% Dehaste.... probably existing caster debuffs could inspire here)?
Or debuff your own arrow-dmg? Maybe a offensive proc like thanes have?
Or a small dot-shot, that stacks with a possible weaponproc?
Siege-shot? Amnesia-shot?

I think the devs have gone the right way to improve the scout's unique defining line, the shield-spec. And in a very reasonable, sensible way.
It adds a lot of utility, while not overpowering them or their stealthgroup. This could have a model character.
And should be done as well for the hunter and probably also for the ranger. The hunter needs it's charming ability tweaked. It could be so much fun to get to play with somewhat useful charmable pets.
Besides there are ZERO pets for a hunter to charm in the frontiers at the moment, while it is a pet-to-go paradise for the mentalists, minstrels and sorcerors out there.

So you'd give up the ability for your pet to run faster than sprint speed to charm a yellow pet?

Sun 12 Jan 2020 5:47 PM by pollojack

jk123 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Jan 2020 2:45 PM
Bow damage is subpar. No one can argue with that.
The immediate fix is easy: Get rid of the custom Phoenix feature of a nerfed Critshot. Do away with Critshot-Immunity.
Remember the Critshot will still not land, if the requirements are not met, yet given the circumstances the damage can be good,
if you manage to land 2 crits.
After the hp-buff this NEEDS to be done really, there are no excuses.

Apart from the damage fix the line would only need a bit more utility to be worth and fun speccing into it again.

How about a reasonably measured debuff-shot (like 15-20% Dehaste.... probably existing caster debuffs could inspire here)?
Or debuff your own arrow-dmg? Maybe a offensive proc like thanes have?
Or a small dot-shot, that stacks with a possible weaponproc?
Siege-shot? Amnesia-shot?

I think the devs have gone the right way to improve the scout's unique defining line, the shield-spec. And in a very reasonable, sensible way.
It adds a lot of utility, while not overpowering them or their stealthgroup. This could have a model character.
And should be done as well for the hunter and probably also for the ranger. The hunter needs it's charming ability tweaked. It could be so much fun to get to play with somewhat useful charmable pets.
Besides there are ZERO pets for a hunter to charm in the frontiers at the moment, while it is a pet-to-go paradise for the mentalists, minstrels and sorcerors out there.

I charmed a grey clicking beetle once. Put him on hastener and set to agro. Missed every attack on people that walked by.

Sun 12 Jan 2020 5:51 PM by pollojack

[/quote]

So you'd give up the ability for your pet to run faster than sprint speed to charm a yellow pet?
[/quote]

Dropping a 10 min reuse, easily dropped, and is slower than speed 5 for an increase in pet dmg and hit rate? Yeah, any hunter would take that. Assuming they got to hold onto speed 1 or 3 still with 10 min reuse. That little speed 1 is enough for casters when you don't have snare poison, a slow style, disease poison, nor prevent flight.

Sun 12 Jan 2020 8:07 PM by jk123

The pet-enhancements not to give up the current summoned pet, but having a choice to do something else now and then.
Hunters already have charm spells apart from the instant-summoned-dog, but ridiculously weak and no pets available anywhere to charm in rvr.

E.g.: A blue con buffing-pet, a ranged rupting pet, a proccing pet... just a nice ability to make up for the fact,
that you become detectable and even visible when the pet gets attacked.
Also think not only rvr, but also pve.

Not to make the class much stronger, but to make it more versatile and fun!

Sun 12 Jan 2020 9:25 PM by Vkejai

Bow damage is a joke here. About time something was done about it.

Mon 13 Jan 2020 8:00 AM by Sepplord

jk123 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Jan 2020 2:45 PM
It adds a lot of utility, while not overpowering them or their stealthgroup. This could have a model character.

Are the results from the stealthgroup zergchampionships already in? Were the other realms up to par with Albion in that regard? Because i very highly doubt that adding another CC (a spammable immunityfree one) into albion stealthgroups didn't make them even worse than before.

The only way to twist it that it didn't skew the balance between stealthgroups much, is to acknowledge that albion was already miles ahead in stealthgroup because of the minstrel and its utility, and now they are a bit more advantaged but it doesn't matter because they were before anyways.

Tue 14 Jan 2020 3:33 AM by gromet12

Azuell wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Jan 2020 5:01 PM
jk123 wrote: ↑
Sun 12 Jan 2020 2:45 PM
Bow damage is subpar. No one can argue with that.
The immediate fix is easy: Get rid of the custom Phoenix feature of a nerfed Critshot. Do away with Critshot-Immunity.
Remember the Critshot will still not land, if the requirements are not met, yet given the circumstances the damage can be good,
if you manage to land 2 crits.
After the hp-buff this NEEDS to be done really, there are no excuses.

Apart from the damage fix the line would only need a bit more utility to be worth and fun speccing into it again.

How about a reasonably measured debuff-shot (like 15-20% Dehaste.... probably existing caster debuffs could inspire here)?
Or debuff your own arrow-dmg? Maybe a offensive proc like thanes have?
Or a small dot-shot, that stacks with a possible weaponproc?
Siege-shot? Amnesia-shot?

I think the devs have gone the right way to improve the scout's unique defining line, the shield-spec. And in a very reasonable, sensible way.
It adds a lot of utility, while not overpowering them or their stealthgroup. This could have a model character.
And should be done as well for the hunter and probably also for the ranger. The hunter needs it's charming ability tweaked. It could be so much fun to get to play with somewhat useful charmable pets.
Besides there are ZERO pets for a hunter to charm in the frontiers at the moment, while it is a pet-to-go paradise for the mentalists, minstrels and sorcerors out there.

So you'd give up the ability for your pet to run faster than sprint speed to charm a yellow pet?

Most hunters will say yes to this; BC line is full of useless abilities that later got fixed on live. Bring out the avatar so you can str/con buff them (told people you are near), having options to use pets in the environment and able to use your str/con buff on them uses abilities in the line that atm are not useable

Thu 16 Jan 2020 10:05 PM by Pao

It's frustrating to play an archer here. The main gameplay was never working: killing a caster in two shots when there is no BT, it was always like that. With more hp it just got ridiculous...

Fri 17 Jan 2020 8:34 PM by Siouxsie

Agree 10000%. Bow damage is pathetic here. Takes 8 or 9 shots to kill anything, and that's only if they're standing still, AFK, and not getting healed.

Archers are *SUPPOSED* to kill casters at range. But casters have PD (Why don't archers get PD!?), and MOC.. which means they can nuke you down with zero effort. Archer might as well just take off all their armor and sit down because it's pointless to play.

The weaponskill/con poison on assassins, the HP 'boost', the spec AF buff everyone runs with, the totally screwed up stealth system that removed Camouflage, while at the same time gave Minstrels as good stealth as archers.. has completely screwed up this game for anyone wanting to play a bow class. It doesn't resemble the DAOC I knew, hell, even in Phoenix beta.

Thu 23 Jan 2020 8:50 PM by jk123

I play Archer Classes in this game since release with little pauses.
I'd really like to know, whether this server intends to bring that archetype back to the game or is it over now?

Just a clean, simple statement, so that i don't have to waste my time anymore, if the answer was "no".

Thank you in advance, dear Phoenix Team.

Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:03 PM by Forlornhope

jk123 wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 8:50 PM
I play Archer Classes in this game since release with little pauses.
I'd really like to know, whether this server intends to bring that archetype back to the game or is it over now?

Just a clean, simple statement, so that i don't have to waste my time anymore, if the answer was "no".

Thank you in advance, dear Phoenix Team.

I mean the archer classes exist here if that's what you're asking?

Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:12 PM by jk123

They still have their names.
But it's all on paper.

In the reality of the game there are no archer classes anymore.
There are additonal melee stealth classes to the assassin classes with some kind of a better short bow.
None of these kill their enemies with their bow alone. Ever.

Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:39 PM by Riac

tbh i hope they never fix archers. there is never just one archer shooting you. the rare time that you do get a nice fair fight the archers start coming out the woodwork.
its a lame ass play style that just focues on leeching anything they can reach.

Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:51 PM by jk123

Thank you, Riac.
When you need someone to bump your topic, there's you.

Admittingly you also agreed to my thesis, that archers didn't exist anymore.
Thank you for your support.

I guess those, who still play the game, will mostly agree with you, that they don't need the archer players and that they really are better off with lower player numbers without them. Hopefully one day you won't find out, that there are too few players left.....

Farewell.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 7:56 AM by Sepplord

Let's skip the existantialism and get right back into a meaningful discussion:

what exactly are you asking for though?

If a single archer is able to reliably kill targets only with his bow, then what chance will targets have fighting them, since they still have melee on top should someone reach them

additionally, if a single archer can reliably kill a target only using his bow, what happens when there are two archers assisting? Instakill from stealth, from 2000-3000units away? 3 Archers on a hill could snipe anyone out of a fullgrp cruising by and restealth before a speed6group reaches them.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 9:25 PM by Horus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jan 2020 7:56 AM
Let's skip the existantialism and get right back into a meaningful discussion:

what exactly are you asking for though?

If a single archer is able to reliably kill targets only with his bow, then what chance will targets have fighting them, since they still have melee on top should someone reach them

additionally, if a single archer can reliably kill a target only using his bow, what happens when there are two archers assisting? Instakill from stealth, from 2000-3000units away? 3 Archers on a hill could snipe anyone out of a fullgrp cruising by and restealth before a speed6group reaches them.

I think somewhere in the middle of what you state above and current state.

If I dump all my spec points into bow, why should I not be able to kill a target at range? I have no melee viability. If it is a caster they can QC or run out of range, if it is melee there are plenty of tools, shield, evade, insta cast charged items...all you need to stop an archer is one interrupt. No one is asking to be able to "insta" kill targets from range. Right not you can't kill anything at all from range. All I want to be able to do is if I have 68 composite archery I should be able to kill soft targets if they choose not to take any immediate action to stop me or I catch them sleeping.

Honestly, does anyone even fear archers in the least? Even in the perfect situation of keep defense we are nothing but a minor annoyance, easily dispatched or rendered impotent by spell, cheap catapults, or wall climbers. If the target is grouped there is zero chance of doing anything worrisome DPS-wise. If not, legion and insta heal pots mitigate any damage. More or less we've been relegated to interrupt and volley bots....oh yea which was nerfed.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 10:34 PM by gromet12

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jan 2020 7:56 AM
what exactly are you asking for though?

The DMG of archery is the problem when they are too easily interrupted and have 0 tools to take control of the fight (I use a charge DD 1500 range for an interrupt, HOWEVER, archery takes MUCH longer to attack then casted abilities, so again even with the 3sec interrupt, my normal shots are 3secs and a QC again interrupts me), I can use RF for 1.5sec arrows (which hit for less than a 1handed attack). My answer is to add the archery fix into the mix or buff the dmg bonus of arrows from 15% to 25% for using the best.

If a single archer is able to reliably kill targets only with his bow, then what chance will targets have fighting them, since they still have melee on top should someone reach them

Use one of the many available tools to interrupt. Unless they have a major height difference (I know, using the terrain to advantage would be crazy huh?) then those tools you have to interrupt at 75% his range.

Why is it ok for other range classes to have this ability but not the archer? Why do other classes get the ability to regain the initiative except the archers? Shields, NS all are beneficial against an archer, for those that don't have those tools let the archer have a chance. ATM once you use any ability to interrupt, the archer is stuck in melee now, and if you're a range class they have to run that distance towards you (speed breaks on dmg) and they are dead or popping all the active RA's they can

additionally, if a single archer can reliably kill a target only using his bow, what happens when there are two archers assisting? Instakill from stealth, from 2000-3000units away? 3 Archers on a hill could snipe anyone out of a fullgrp cruising by and restealth before a speed6group reaches them.

What happens if 3 assassins pa a target in a FG then vanish? Archers the target is critical immune for 15secs, so 3 archers are not killing anyone in 1 shot if they all had 50 spec. However, 3 assassins will do this, just like 3 DPS would have an easier time accomplishing this than the archers. If the speed6 group cannot reach them before they stealth, I applaud the archers for team work/coordination. What happens with a high RR 3man runs into a low RR fg, and they wipe the fg using RA's and teamwork?

Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:25 PM by jk123

I applaud my two predecessors for having the patience to answer
the clueless and ignorant. It's very futile though. Besides only the devs matter,
not biased, dishonest players.

And the Devs obviously took it to this stage, where archery is the worst in daoc's history. Archery was a lot better even in the old, darkest days of Archers in Daoc
with the first see hidden RA for assassins. Allthough in the endresult it was a pain to play against that op ability back then and unplayable for solos,
Archers still could kill something with their bow now and then in a siege or in zerg-warfare unlike now.

The Devs must have a vision of what they wanted to accomplish. If they don't aim to change anything, i guess the current state of archery is,
what they wanted to achieve after all.
Hence i only want a clear and honest statement from them regarding the role of archery in their game.
Then archers could decide, whether it makes sense for them to invest any further into their character of that class.
Would be fair, wouldn't it be?

Mon 27 Jan 2020 3:03 PM by Horus

jk123 wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:25 PM
I applaud my two predecessors for having the patience to answer
the clueless and ignorant. It's very futile though. Besides only the devs matter,
not biased, dishonest players.

And the Devs obviously took it to this stage, where archery is the worst in daoc's history. Archery was a lot better even in the old, darkest days of Archers in Daoc
with the first see hidden RA for assassins. Allthough in the endresult it was a pain to play against that op ability back then and unplayable for solos,
Archers still could kill something with their bow now and then in a siege or in zerg-warfare unlike now.

The Devs must have a vision of what they wanted to accomplish. If they don't aim to change anything, i guess the current state of archery is,
what they wanted to achieve after all.
Hence i only want a clear and honest statement from them regarding the role of archery in their game.
Then archers could decide, whether it makes sense for them to invest any further into their character of that class.
Would be fair, wouldn't it be?

Good point, the stealth changes have given archers higher survivability from assassins..so bonus I guess, I would trade that to be able to do feared ranged damage. RIght now, yea, I don't get perfed as much but there is no reason to roam around solo anyway because I can't kill anything with bow spec. Heck, just roll back the custom stealth changes and implement the classic mechanic with true sight as an RA, see hidden, and camo. Increase bow damage to compensate. I think that would be more fun IMO.

Archers hunt solos, assassins hunt archers. That is the old formula I miss

Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:21 PM by inoeth

Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 3:03 PM
jk123 wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:25 PM
I applaud my two predecessors for having the patience to answer
the clueless and ignorant. It's very futile though. Besides only the devs matter,
not biased, dishonest players.

And the Devs obviously took it to this stage, where archery is the worst in daoc's history. Archery was a lot better even in the old, darkest days of Archers in Daoc
with the first see hidden RA for assassins. Allthough in the endresult it was a pain to play against that op ability back then and unplayable for solos,
Archers still could kill something with their bow now and then in a siege or in zerg-warfare unlike now.

The Devs must have a vision of what they wanted to accomplish. If they don't aim to change anything, i guess the current state of archery is,
what they wanted to achieve after all.
Hence i only want a clear and honest statement from them regarding the role of archery in their game.
Then archers could decide, whether it makes sense for them to invest any further into their character of that class.
Would be fair, wouldn't it be?

Good point, the stealth changes have given archers higher survivability from assassins..so bonus I guess, I would trade that to be able to do feared ranged damage. RIght now, yea, I don't get perfed as much but there is no reason to roam around solo anyway because I can't kill anything with bow spec. Heck, just roll back the custom stealth changes and implement the classic mechanic with true sight as an RA, see hidden, and camo. Increase bow damage to compensate. I think that would be more fun IMO.

Archers hunt solos, assassins hunt archers. That is the old formula I miss

no! i really like it how it is now, just get a decent melee spec and you will be fine.... 27 bow is all you need anyway

Mon 27 Jan 2020 6:15 PM by Riac

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:21 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 3:03 PM
jk123 wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:25 PM
I applaud my two predecessors for having the patience to answer
the clueless and ignorant. It's very futile though. Besides only the devs matter,
not biased, dishonest players.

And the Devs obviously took it to this stage, where archery is the worst in daoc's history. Archery was a lot better even in the old, darkest days of Archers in Daoc
with the first see hidden RA for assassins. Allthough in the endresult it was a pain to play against that op ability back then and unplayable for solos,
Archers still could kill something with their bow now and then in a siege or in zerg-warfare unlike now.

The Devs must have a vision of what they wanted to accomplish. If they don't aim to change anything, i guess the current state of archery is,
what they wanted to achieve after all.
Hence i only want a clear and honest statement from them regarding the role of archery in their game.
Then archers could decide, whether it makes sense for them to invest any further into their character of that class.
Would be fair, wouldn't it be?

Good point, the stealth changes have given archers higher survivability from assassins..so bonus I guess, I would trade that to be able to do feared ranged damage. RIght now, yea, I don't get perfed as much but there is no reason to roam around solo anyway because I can't kill anything with bow spec. Heck, just roll back the custom stealth changes and implement the classic mechanic with true sight as an RA, see hidden, and camo. Increase bow damage to compensate. I think that would be more fun IMO.

Archers hunt solos, assassins hunt archers. That is the old formula I miss

no! i really like it how it is now, just get a decent melee spec and you will be fine.... 27 bow is all you need anyway

but i want to continue to invest my points in bow w/o getting any return because im a bow user!

Tue 28 Jan 2020 12:50 AM by gotwqqd

Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 3:03 PM
jk123 wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 2:25 PM
I applaud my two predecessors for having the patience to answer
the clueless and ignorant. It's very futile though. Besides only the devs matter,
not biased, dishonest players.

And the Devs obviously took it to this stage, where archery is the worst in daoc's history. Archery was a lot better even in the old, darkest days of Archers in Daoc
with the first see hidden RA for assassins. Allthough in the endresult it was a pain to play against that op ability back then and unplayable for solos,
Archers still could kill something with their bow now and then in a siege or in zerg-warfare unlike now.

The Devs must have a vision of what they wanted to accomplish. If they don't aim to change anything, i guess the current state of archery is,
what they wanted to achieve after all.
Hence i only want a clear and honest statement from them regarding the role of archery in their game.
Then archers could decide, whether it makes sense for them to invest any further into their character of that class.
Would be fair, wouldn't it be?

Good point, the stealth changes have given archers higher survivability from assassins..so bonus I guess, I would trade that to be able to do feared ranged damage. RIght now, yea, I don't get perfed as much but there is no reason to roam around solo anyway because I can't kill anything with bow spec. Heck, just roll back the custom stealth changes and implement the classic mechanic with true sight as an RA, see hidden, and camo. Increase bow damage to compensate. I think that would be more fun IMO.

Archers hunt solos, assassins hunt archers. That is the old formula I miss

Yea I miss that before archery ruined on live
Prowling the paths used to get from mainkeeps to the action
Then trying to avoid groups and assassins sent out to find me

Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:26 PM by Horus

Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 6:15 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:21 PM
no! i really like it how it is now, just get a decent melee spec and you will be fine.... 27 bow is all you need anyway

but i want to continue to invest my points in bow w/o getting any return because im a bow user!

Yes yes, I know. How stupid of us who are fans of the archer class actually having the desire to play an archer and not a watered down melee assassin.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 6:33 PM by Riac

Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:26 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 6:15 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:21 PM
no! i really like it how it is now, just get a decent melee spec and you will be fine.... 27 bow is all you need anyway

but i want to continue to invest my points in bow w/o getting any return because im a bow user!

Yes yes, I know. How stupid of us who are fans of the archer class actually having the desire to play an archer and not a watered down melee assassin.

no the stupid aspect of it is that you know the reality of investing past 27 bow and know that you get next to no return on your investment and yet you do it anyways. that is dumb as fuck lol.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 10:24 PM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 6:33 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:26 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 6:15 PM
but i want to continue to invest my points in bow w/o getting any return because im a bow user!

Yes yes, I know. How stupid of us who are fans of the archer class actually having the desire to play an archer and not a watered down melee assassin.

no the stupid aspect of it is that you know the reality of investing past 27 bow and know that you get next to no return on your investment and yet you do it anyways. that is dumb as fuck lol.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12206

Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:07 PM by Cadebrennus

Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:26 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 6:15 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:21 PM
no! i really like it how it is now, just get a decent melee spec and you will be fine.... 27 bow is all you need anyway

but i want to continue to invest my points in bow w/o getting any return because im a bow user!

Yes yes, I know. How stupid of us who are fans of the archer class actually having the desire to play an archer and not a watered down melee assassin.

Riac and inoeth are both known trolls. It's best to not even bother responding to their posts.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:20 PM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:07 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:26 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 6:15 PM
but i want to continue to invest my points in bow w/o getting any return because im a bow user!

Yes yes, I know. How stupid of us who are fans of the archer class actually having the desire to play an archer and not a watered down melee assassin.

Riac and inoeth are both known trolls. It's best to not even bother responding to their posts.

anyone that disagrees with cade is a known troll lol.
cade, the person who doesnt play here and yet loves to comment on all the idiosyncrasies of the server. cade what is your highest rr on this server?

Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:29 PM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 10:24 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 6:33 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 2:26 PM
Yes yes, I know. How stupid of us who are fans of the archer class actually having the desire to play an archer and not a watered down melee assassin.

no the stupid aspect of it is that you know the reality of investing past 27 bow and know that you get next to no return on your investment and yet you do it anyways. that is dumb as fuck lol.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12206

whats your point? from just skimming the forum you seem to say the dmg hits a hard cap at 52 composite. you can pretty much get that with 35 spec a temp and rr5. seems like a pretty low ceiling to hit your hard cap tbh. frees up a shitload of points to spec other things. if you want to inefficiently use your spec points to go above that, thats on you. not me or the server.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:47 PM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:29 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 10:24 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 6:33 PM
no the stupid aspect of it is that you know the reality of investing past 27 bow and know that you get next to no return on your investment and yet you do it anyways. that is dumb as fuck lol.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12206

whats your point? from just skimming the forum you seem to say the dmg hits a hard cap at 52 composite. you can pretty much get that with 35 spec a temp and rr5. seems like a pretty low ceiling to hit your hard cap tbh. frees up a shitload of points to spec other things. if you want to inefficiently use your spec points to go above that, thats on you. not me or the server.

What’s my point?
It’s just some simple tests done that show damage increase in %’s with higher bow spec

No reason to be such a pompous ass

Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:51 PM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:47 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:29 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 10:24 PM
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12206

whats your point? from just skimming the forum you seem to say the dmg hits a hard cap at 52 composite. you can pretty much get that with 35 spec a temp and rr5. seems like a pretty low ceiling to hit your hard cap tbh. frees up a shitload of points to spec other things. if you want to inefficiently use your spec points to go above that, thats on you. not me or the server.

What’s my point?
It’s just some simple tests done that show damage increase in %’s with higher bow spec

No reason to be such a pompous ass

so was my interpretation of the data wrong?

Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:56 PM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:51 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:47 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:29 PM
whats your point? from just skimming the forum you seem to say the dmg hits a hard cap at 52 composite. you can pretty much get that with 35 spec a temp and rr5. seems like a pretty low ceiling to hit your hard cap tbh. frees up a shitload of points to spec other things. if you want to inefficiently use your spec points to go above that, thats on you. not me or the server.

What’s my point?
It’s just some simple tests done that show damage increase in %’s with higher bow spec

No reason to be such a pompous ass

so was my interpretation of the data wrong?

How can your interpretation be wrong? For YOU!
I simply put it there so anyone can have an idea and determine for themselves if the %damage increase is worth it.
Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent, but others may feel the increases are justifiable

Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:36 AM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:56 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:51 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:47 PM
What’s my point?
It’s just some simple tests done that show damage increase in %’s with higher bow spec

No reason to be such a pompous ass

so was my interpretation of the data wrong?
How can your interpretation be wrong? For YOU!
I simply put it there so anyone can have an idea and determine for themselves if the %damage increase is worth it.
Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent, but others may feel the increases are justifiable

lol so you pretty much agree with what i said, you just didnt like how i said it.
skin so thin lol

Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:54 AM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:36 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:56 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:51 PM
so was my interpretation of the data wrong?
How can your interpretation be wrong? For YOU!
I simply put it there so anyone can have an idea and determine for themselves if the %damage increase is worth it.
Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent, but others may feel the increases are justifiable

lol so you pretty much agree with what i said, you just didnt like how i said it.
skin so thin lol

Your clueless
I didn’t agree with anything
I just wanted to put data out there for others to make decision on their own instead of taking your word for it.

You are so full of yourself.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:58 AM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:54 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:36 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 11:56 PM
How can your interpretation be wrong? For YOU!
I simply put it there so anyone can have an idea and determine for themselves if the %damage increase is worth it.
Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent, but others may feel the increases are justifiable

lol so you pretty much agree with what i said, you just didnt like how i said it.
skin so thin lol

Your clueless
I didn’t agree with anything
I just wanted to put data out there for others to make decision on their own instead of taking your word for it.

You are so full of yourself.

Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent - what you said

my initial point was talking shit about ppl investing past the point of good returns.... how is what youre saying different from my stance?

Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:07 AM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:58 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:54 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:36 AM
lol so you pretty much agree with what i said, you just didnt like how i said it.
skin so thin lol

Your clueless
I didn’t agree with anything
I just wanted to put data out there for others to make decision on their own instead of taking your word for it.

You are so full of yourself.

Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent - what you said

my initial point was talking shit about ppl investing past the point of good returns.... how is what youre saying different from my stance?

A. “You wanna be an idiot and waste spec points by all means go ahead”.

B. “Here’s some numbers of what you can expect for spending points in the archery line”.

If you don’t see the difference I can’t help you and likely your contribution to society will not improve.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:12 AM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:07 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:58 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:54 AM
Your clueless
I didn’t agree with anything
I just wanted to put data out there for others to make decision on their own instead of taking your word for it.

You are so full of yourself.

Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent - what you said

my initial point was talking shit about ppl investing past the point of good returns.... how is what youre saying different from my stance?
A. “You wanna be an idiot and waste spec points by all means go ahead”.

B. “Here’s some numbers of what you can expect for spending points in the archery line”.

If you don’t see the difference I can’t help you and likely your contribution to society will not improve.

seems like we both arrive at the same conclusion though.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:31 AM by gotwqqd

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:12 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:07 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:58 AM
Personally I think it’s low for spec points spent - what you said

my initial point was talking shit about ppl investing past the point of good returns.... how is what youre saying different from my stance?
A. “You wanna be an idiot and waste spec points by all means go ahead”.

B. “Here’s some numbers of what you can expect for spending points in the archery line”.

If you don’t see the difference I can’t help you and likely your contribution to society will not improve.

seems like we both arrive at the same conclusion though.

Let me ask you.
What % INCREASE of damage do you think having composite 30 raised to composite 53 should be?

Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:38 AM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:31 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:12 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:07 AM
A. “You wanna be an idiot and waste spec points by all means go ahead”.

B. “Here’s some numbers of what you can expect for spending points in the archery line”.

If you don’t see the difference I can’t help you and likely your contribution to society will not improve.

seems like we both arrive at the same conclusion though.
Let me ask you.
What % INCREASE of damage do you think having composite 30 raised to composite 53 should be?

im biased af and i think thats quite obv, but i think it should be 0. i absolutely hate archers, they run in groups and just add on everything in sight.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:58 AM by easytoremember

Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:38 AM
im biased af and i think thats quite obv, but i think it should be 0. i absolutely hate archers, they run in groups and just add on everything in sight.

sounds surprisingly similar to normal groups

Wed 29 Jan 2020 8:25 AM by Sepplord

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:58 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:38 AM
im biased af and i think thats quite obv, but i think it should be 0. i absolutely hate archers, they run in groups and just add on everything in sight.
sounds surprisingly similar to normal groups

because he didn't mention that they do it from stealth

*cough* avoidability *cough*

I mean, how do you believe anyone can take this topic seriously. There are people here saying that they would "I applaud the archers for team work/coordination" when they assist-shoot someone out of a group, because assisting with non-positionals from stealth & range apparently is a great feat of skill.
And somehow I am the troll and the biased person

Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:49 PM by inoeth

/yawn @cade
If im a troll then youre my master

At least im actually playing this server and know what im talking about

Thu 30 Jan 2020 3:00 PM by Horus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:31 AM
Let me ask you.
What % INCREASE of damage do you think having composite 30 raised to composite 53 should be?

I'll answer..I think it should be a linear increase.

Since there are no styles, composite 60 should do twice the base damage as composite 30.

Thu 30 Jan 2020 5:09 PM by inoeth

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 3:00 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:31 AM
Let me ask you.
What % INCREASE of damage do you think having composite 30 raised to composite 53 should be?

I'll answer..I think it should be a linear increase.

Since there are no styles, composite 60 should do twice the base damage as composite 30.

lol twice? what are you dreaming of? normal shot 600 dmg?! if thats coming everyone would play archers then.

again archers are fine! l2p

Thu 30 Jan 2020 7:28 PM by Riac

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 5:09 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 3:00 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:31 AM
Let me ask you.
What % INCREASE of damage do you think having composite 30 raised to composite 53 should be?

I'll answer..I think it should be a linear increase.

Since there are no styles, composite 60 should do twice the base damage as composite 30.

lol twice? what are you dreaming of? normal shot 600 dmg?! if thats coming everyone would play archers then.

again archers are fine! l2p

rofl this guy wants twice the dmg on a ranged shot? hunters and rangers are already good classes. idk about scouts and, frankly, dont care.
are they wanting greater ranged dmg in order to solo better? what if they get this and they still never solo? i think they can solo just fine (assuming no one runs up them while they are kiting and doing all they need to do, but thats the danger we all face and when ppl coastguard nonstop it sucks. however, thats a different problem.)
are they wanting greater ranged dmg in order to group better or perform better in a siege scenario? i think they do just fine in both those cases already. when two archers are shooting you, youre pretty fucked. (especially considering they always wait till you engage someone else before they pop on you lol)

Thu 30 Jan 2020 7:32 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:49 PM
/yawn @cade
If im a troll then youre my master

At least im actually playing this server and know what im talking about

Despite the fact that I'm a very casual player at this point I still have far more knowledge than you'll ever have. In addition, contrary to you and the rest of the forum trolls, I'm actually interested in true balance rather than one-sided play.

Thu 30 Jan 2020 9:32 PM by gromet12

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 3:00 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:31 AM
Let me ask you.
What % INCREASE of damage do you think having composite 30 raised to composite 53 should be?

I'll answer..I think it should be a linear increase.

Since there are no styles, composite 60 should do twice the base damage as composite 30.

That is too much but you named the problem with archery in general

We are base dmg only with arrows making up some of our DPS. On any other melee except for 2H dmg stops increasing base after 52+, with 2handers they get a slight increase continuing up the spec line. Bows follow this logic but here comes this issue...in melee you use styles which add to the dmg, and going above 52 spec increases style dmg linearly. Arrows don’t keep up once you start adding styles into the mix

If the updated archery patch isn’t possible since it addressed many of the issues mentioned, fixes within the current system should follow the logic of how style dmg increases. I focus on the arrows but without changing the mechanics I’m at a lost on how to improve them while also not allowing those that want to melee and carry minimal archery spec the same increase in dmg.

-self base dex buff starting @ 35 archery spec very 5 is an increase in the base buff (35 starts potions) and the lvl 45-50 buff is 62 dex, doesn’t make going over 52 beneficial

-self dmg buff following same logic 5-15%, this still doesn’t make +archery worth it

-increase archery to table 23 (benefits lower specs too though)

-increase the base 2h bonus on bows only (could be impossible), but atm it's 1.1+(.005xspec) to something higher so the amount of spec points spent increases that factor above current. That would make adding +archery to increase as you go up, but will increase the dmg of low specs as well

And cap the defenses lower! No target should have 80% defenses against any class, or remove the block/evade cutting of DW so everyone can feel the joy

Thu 30 Jan 2020 10:36 PM by Pao

I fix it myself by not playing my archer anymore. Best choice. Way more fun with my new class.

Thu 30 Jan 2020 11:07 PM by Riac

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 7:32 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:49 PM
/yawn @cade
If im a troll then youre my master

At least im actually playing this server and know what im talking about

Despite the fact that I'm a very casual player at this point I still have far more knowledge than you'll ever have. In addition, contrary to you and the rest of the forum trolls, I'm actually interested in true balance rather than one-sided play.

cade, the guy that knows so much but understands so little.
i like how in the pa forum, you suggest nerfing pd as a possible fix to PA being sucky. grade A understanding of the problem as usual from cade. (sarcasm, he doesnt understand the problem at all.)
or the time when someone litterally had to explain to you why the 4 sec stun was better in a fight than a long duration stun. (another failure to understand a nuance idea due to the fact that you dont play this game nor understand the current trends.)

Thu 30 Jan 2020 11:38 PM by Azuell

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 11:07 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 7:32 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:49 PM
/yawn @cade
If im a troll then youre my master

At least im actually playing this server and know what im talking about

Despite the fact that I'm a very casual player at this point I still have far more knowledge than you'll ever have. In addition, contrary to you and the rest of the forum trolls, I'm actually interested in true balance rather than one-sided play.

cade, the guy that knows so much but understands so little.
i like how in the pa forum, you suggest nerfing pd as a possible fix to PA being sucky. grade A understanding of the problem as usual from cade. (sarcasm, he doesnt understand the problem at all.)
or the time when someone litterally had to explain to you why the 4 sec stun was better in a fight than a long duration stun. (another failure to understand a nuance idea due to the fact that you dont play this game nor understand the current trends.)

It's cute how you two like to go back and forth like this.

Fri 31 Jan 2020 12:03 AM by Quathan

I had a short break and came back after the HP buff. I must agree it is hard to kill anything before they either got away or come close enough to counter your attacks.

I aswell love to play archer classes and would love to see some tweaks for my favorite arch type.

Was talking with some friend what could tweak the archers a little in here.

We talked about merge Mastery of Archery & Mastery of Arms / Mastery of Pain & Falcon's Eye. Just like Wild Arcana & Wild Power did so it is more equal to other class' RA.
We also talked about allowing archers to shoot through interruption dmg or allowing them to shoot while running though it may open up new balance issues.
The best way might be through damage tweak carefully monitored.
Thought the 45 shield change for Scouts was a nice tweak for them though I think they still lack behind compared to the other archer classes. Since charges got nerfed from 75 to 50 they really miss out on some draw speed and extra damage. Imo they should start thereby adding a Dex/Qui ability to the Scout somewhere and then adjust Archer classes. - Just a few thoughts.

Hope Phoenix staff keep up their good work with keeping the server fresh and ever-changing.

Halt

Fri 31 Jan 2020 12:52 AM by easytoremember

Quathan wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Jan 2020 12:03 AM
We talked about merge Mastery of Archery & Mastery of Arms / Mastery of Pain & Falcon's Eye. Just like Wild Arcana & Wild Power did so it is more equal to other class' RA.

whoa there, for Arcana the ability to crit with debuffs is now completely gone
If you meant DoT crit got merged with Wild Power sure but that means merging Falcon Eye with Mastery of Pain is going to likely have a loss in it you won't like

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 9:32 PM
That is too much but you named the problem with archery in general

We are base dmg only with arrows making up some of our DPS. On any other melee except for 2H dmg stops increasing base after 52+, with 2handers they get a slight increase continuing up the spec line. Bows follow this logic but here comes this issue...in melee you use styles which add to the dmg, and going above 52 spec increases style dmg linearly. Arrows don’t keep up once you start adding styles into the mix

Archery remains ranged though
With casters' base spells the damage benefit stops at comp50 and for spec spells you get the delve- neither of which benefit from +skill

Since archery is kinda in between melee and magic why not introduce variance in the damage? Unlike magic, this variance continues passed comp50 while the damage min/max continues at not-such-a-degrading-curve-as-is-currently-being-used so you indefinitely benefit from adding points to archery with bigger potential damage and a gradually shrinking variance

Fri 31 Jan 2020 1:30 AM by gromet12

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Jan 2020 12:52 AM
gromet12 wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 9:32 PM
That is too much but you named the problem with archery in general

We are base dmg only with arrows making up some of our DPS. On any other melee except for 2H dmg stops increasing base after 52+, with 2handers they get a slight increase continuing up the spec line. Bows follow this logic but here comes this issue...in melee you use styles which add to the dmg, and going above 52 spec increases style dmg linearly. Arrows don’t keep up once you start adding styles into the mix
Archery remains ranged though
With casters' base spells the damage benefit stops at comp50 and for spec spells you get the delve- neither of which benefit from +skill

Since archery is kinda in between melee and magic why not introduce variance in the damage? Unlike magic, this variance continues passed comp50 while the damage min/max continues at not-such-a-degrading-curve-as-is-currently-being-used so you indefinitely benefit from adding points to archery with bigger potential damage and a gradually shrinking variance

Though archery is range, its dmg formula is the base 2hand dmg formula. I would love to see the archery patch which put archers as "casters" vs what we currently have, but that includes the buffs in archery spec lines, dots and ability to use elemental arrows (or basically DD's)

Fri 31 Jan 2020 7:34 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Jan 2020 7:32 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:49 PM
/yawn @cade
If im a troll then youre my master

At least im actually playing this server and know what im talking about

Despite the fact that I'm a very casual player at this point I still have far more knowledge than you'll ever have. In addition, contrary to you and the rest of the forum trolls, I'm actually interested in true balance rather than one-sided play.

you mean like you suggest everyone to use slow offhand weapons regardless which class it is? /facepalm
often enough you have proven to have zero understanding of daoc game mechanics and everyone knows that alrdy

Fri 31 Jan 2020 2:34 PM by Horus

OK if a linear increase in dmg based on composite spec is too much. Redo the arrow bonus mechanic. It is silly anyway. Everyone uses the best arrows all the time. Make the arrow bonus increase with composite bow spec by some amount.

Fri 31 Jan 2020 10:52 PM by gotwqqd

Horus wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Jan 2020 2:34 PM
OK if a linear increase in dmg based on composite spec is too much. Redo the arrow bonus mechanic. It is silly anyway. Everyone uses the best arrows all the time. Make the arrow bonus increase with composite bow spec by some amount.

Better yet
Implement an ever full quiver with the three best arrow choices. Why archers need additional time and money sink?

Then either up the base arrow damage formulae or make it a style. Whatever works to making the signature spell line viable to spec 50 if one wants.
Every other class pretty has a reason to spec their skill lines to 50(aside poisons) or at least the last skill in the line

Sat 1 Feb 2020 7:00 AM by Cadebrennus

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Jan 2020 10:52 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Jan 2020 2:34 PM
OK if a linear increase in dmg based on composite spec is too much. Redo the arrow bonus mechanic. It is silly anyway. Everyone uses the best arrows all the time. Make the arrow bonus increase with composite bow spec by some amount.

Better yet
Implement an ever full quiver with the three best arrow choices. Why archers need additional time and money sink?

Then either up the base arrow damage formulae or make it a style. Whatever works to making the signature spell line viable to spec 50 if one wants.
Every other class pretty has a reason to spec their skill lines to 50(aside poisons) or at least the last skill in the line

You can still get the best poisons by getting composite 50. This is the equivalent of getting a level 50 style or spell by simply getting composite 50 instead of speccing for it.

Sat 1 Feb 2020 11:37 PM by gotwqqd

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Feb 2020 7:00 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Jan 2020 10:52 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Jan 2020 2:34 PM
OK if a linear increase in dmg based on composite spec is too much. Redo the arrow bonus mechanic. It is silly anyway. Everyone uses the best arrows all the time. Make the arrow bonus increase with composite bow spec by some amount.

Better yet
Implement an ever full quiver with the three best arrow choices. Why archers need additional time and money sink?

Then either up the base arrow damage formulae or make it a style. Whatever works to making the signature spell line viable to spec 50 if one wants.
Every other class pretty has a reason to spec their skill lines to 50(aside poisons) or at least the last skill in the line

You can still get the best poisons by getting composite 50. This is the equivalent of getting a level 50 style or spell by simply getting composite 50 instead of speccing for it.

Which is why I clarified that poisons is exception