let's talk about Scouts - Phoenix Freeshard

well this a known topic but it does not look like that there are good suggestions that buff the scout but do not touch the other archers.
so what are the real weak points of the scout and what could be done about it?

imo there are two big issues that make the scout nearly unplayable:

1) shield spec is underwhelming: you can rarely make use of your speced! ability slam because it gets purged 90% of the time, which would be ok if your shield would do what it is supposed to do: protect you, but it does not. the block chance is laughable and needs alot of rr to be considered somehow usefull. i mean you spec in it but it does nearly nothing for you.

2) weapon dmg is very low: even 50 weapon spec feels like the weapon was not speced at all. hitting enemys with 90 dmg is no fun

bow dmg seems fine though

so what can be done?

according to the paladin buff, it might be a good idea to raise the weapon dmg table.
for the shield issue imo it should be possible to get block chance to 50-60% with heavy RA point invest which seems actually not possible at the moment. im am not sure why this is not possible, my guess: base block chance is always cut off at 60% and then the DW malus is applied so you end up with maximum 35-40% block chance even though you have 50 shield and mob9, meaning at some point shield spec/mob is not usefull anymore. solution: aaply DW malus first and then cut off block chance at 60% if thats still higher.

10 years ago on live scouts have beens really strong if right speced but here scouts only chance to get some RP is adding or zerging. really sad.

Wed 18 Dec 2019 11:30 PM by gromet12

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Dec 2019 10:54 PM
well this a known topic but it does not look like that there are good suggestions that buff the scout but do not touch the other archers.
so what are the real weak points of the scout and what could be done about it?

imo there are two big issues that make the scout nearly unplayable:

1) shield spec is underwhelming: you can rarely make use of your speced! ability slam because it gets purged 90% of the time, which would be ok if your shield would do what it is supposed to do: protect you, but it does not. the block chance is laughable and needs alot of rr to be considered somehow usefull. i mean you spec in it but it does nearly nothing for you.

2) weapon dmg is very low: even 50 weapon spec feels like the weapon was not speced at all. hitting enemys with 90 dmg is no fun

bow dmg seems fine though

so what can be done?

according to the paladin buff, it might be a good idea to raise the weapon dmg table.
for the shield issue imo it should be possible to get block chance to 50-60% with heavy RA point invest which seems actually not possible at the moment. im am not sure why this is not possible, my guess: base block chance is always cut off at 60% and then the DW malus is applied so you end up with maximum 35-40% block chance even though you have 50 shield and mob9, meaning at some point shield spec/mob is not usefull anymore. solution: aaply DW malus first and then cut off block chance at 60% if thats still higher.

10 years ago on live scouts have beens really strong if right speced but here scouts only chance to get some RP is adding or zerging. really sad.

Shield isn’t the problem, the problem is not having 400+ dex as they did in a buff bot world. This issue existed on classic servers as well but after a year of classic, they normalized the archer line and loads of scouts popped up like the hordes of rangers and hunters on the servers.

And BOW dmg is all the problem. Avg bow dmg is way weaker than it should be; I checked the bonus for arrows and that is correct on test dummies, what isn't correct is bow and spear hitting for near identical base dmg on target dummies as a hunter, bow dmg is on the highest dmg table in the game and melee dmg for archers is the lowest.

Scouts lack dex, are more bow focused, and something is wrong with both here.

You don't want the fix because that would require specing into bow for self buffs. Here is also a funny food for thought...BOW dmg went DOWN with the changes to archery but you could not be so easily interrupted and had options for staying with bow while taking dmg (moc and an archery style I don't remember)

Wed 18 Dec 2019 11:32 PM by Kurbsen

1) start fight with rapid fire and str/con debuff bow
2) use numb on enemy because everyone is bad here and purges it immediately
3) swap between bane and dex/qui debuff thruster for procs.
4) slam because they used purge.
5) crit shot..
6) you win

Wed 18 Dec 2019 11:36 PM by inoeth

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Dec 2019 11:32 PM
1) start fight with rapid fire and str/con debuff bow
2) use numb on enemy because everyone is bad here and purges it immediately
3) swap between bane and dex/qui debuff thruster for procs.
4) slam because they used purge.
5) crit shot..
6) you win

pffffff lol this is pen and paper daoc wish list.

Wed 18 Dec 2019 11:41 PM by inoeth

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Dec 2019 11:30 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Dec 2019 10:54 PM
well this a known topic but it does not look like that there are good suggestions that buff the scout but do not touch the other archers.
so what are the real weak points of the scout and what could be done about it?

imo there are two big issues that make the scout nearly unplayable:

1) shield spec is underwhelming: you can rarely make use of your speced! ability slam because it gets purged 90% of the time, which would be ok if your shield would do what it is supposed to do: protect you, but it does not. the block chance is laughable and needs alot of rr to be considered somehow usefull. i mean you spec in it but it does nearly nothing for you.

2) weapon dmg is very low: even 50 weapon spec feels like the weapon was not speced at all. hitting enemys with 90 dmg is no fun

bow dmg seems fine though

so what can be done?

according to the paladin buff, it might be a good idea to raise the weapon dmg table.
for the shield issue imo it should be possible to get block chance to 50-60% with heavy RA point invest which seems actually not possible at the moment. im am not sure why this is not possible, my guess: base block chance is always cut off at 60% and then the DW malus is applied so you end up with maximum 35-40% block chance even though you have 50 shield and mob9, meaning at some point shield spec/mob is not usefull anymore. solution: aaply DW malus first and then cut off block chance at 60% if thats still higher.

10 years ago on live scouts have beens really strong if right speced but here scouts only chance to get some RP is adding or zerging. really sad.

Shield isn’t the problem, the problem is not having 400+ dex as they did in a buff bot world. This issue existed on classic servers as well but after a year of classic, they normalized the archer line and loads of scouts popped up like the hordes of rangers and hunters on the servers.

And BOW dmg is all the problem. Avg bow dmg is way weaker than it should be; I checked the bonus for arrows and that is correct on test dummies, what isn't correct is bow and spear hitting for near identical base dmg on target dummies as a hunter, bow dmg is on the highest dmg table in the game and melee dmg for archers is the lowest.

Scouts lack dex, are more bow focused, and something is wrong with both here.

You don't want the fix because that would require specing into bow for self buffs. Here is also a funny food for thought...BOW dmg went DOWN with the changes to archery but you could not be so easily interrupted and had options for staying with bow while taking dmg (moc and an archery style I don't remember)

you cant kill anything with bow because you only have 250 stealth detect range here, if i could gett off crit shot+normal every fight i would not argue but in fact this is not possible. even with new archery system scout would suck here.
on classic servers there was mos available.
shield IS the problem here.... yes we dont have 400 dex but enemys also dont have 400 str
bow is not the highest dmg table
archer melee table is not the lowest

so much misinformation in this post.

Thu 19 Dec 2019 12:22 AM by gromet12

inoeth wrote: you cant kill anything with bow because you only have 250 stealth detect range here, if i could gett off crit shot+normal every fight i would not argue but in fact this is not possible. even with new archery system scout would suck here.
on classic servers there was mos available.
shield IS the problem here.... yes we dont have 400 dex but enemys also dont have 400 str
bow is not the highest dmg table
archer melee table is not the lowest

so much misinformation in this post.

archery is factor 22
hunter melee is factor 19

So how does the same spec spear and bow do the same dmg to test dummies here with identical stats (I had to remove dex quick items to test this out). It old patch notes here they state they reduced the dmg table of archers, it's obvious they did this to archery. Bow shots hit harder than magic in the day, I'm hitting 300 on my LT's and barely break 200 on regular shots on a hunter with 5.0 bow

Factor 18/19 are the lowest spec dmg tables (classes that can spec weapons often called the healer hybrid table)

Factor 22 often called the tank table
Mercenary - Slash, Crush, Thrust and Staff
Scout - Archery * 2)
Armsman - Slash, Crush, Thrust, Staff, Two Handed, Polearm and Crossbow
Vampiir - Piercing
Blademaster - Blades, Blunt and Piercing
Hero - Blades, Blunt and Piercing, Large Weapons and Celtic Spear
Ranger - Archery * 2)
Hunter - Archery * 2)
Savage - Staff
Berserker - Axes, Swords, Hammers, Staff and Thrown
Warrior - Staff and Thrown

The only highest table is Factor 23 (Warrior only table based on 1.56 patch if they have that in here)

Miss information for you, correct information for me. Notice nothing about archer melee on this table which is the highest in the game

Edit: The *2 is a note moved to magic attack

Thu 19 Dec 2019 12:46 AM by inoeth

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 12:22 AM
inoeth wrote: you cant kill anything with bow because you only have 250 stealth detect range here, if i could gett off crit shot+normal every fight i would not argue but in fact this is not possible. even with new archery system scout would suck here.
on classic servers there was mos available.
shield IS the problem here.... yes we dont have 400 dex but enemys also dont have 400 str
bow is not the highest dmg table
archer melee table is not the lowest

so much misinformation in this post.

archery is factor 22
hunter melee is factor 19

So how does the same spec spear and bow do the same dmg to test dummies here with identical stats (I had to remove dex quick items to test this out). It old patch notes here they state they reduced the dmg table of archers, it's obvious they did this to archery. Bow shots hit harder than magic in the day, I'm hitting 300 on my LT's and barely break 200 on regular shots on a hunter with 5.0 bow

Factor 18/19 are the lowest spec dmg tables (classes that can spec weapons often called the healer hybrid table)

Factor 22 often called the tank table
Mercenary - Slash, Crush, Thrust and Staff
Scout - Archery * 2)
Armsman - Slash, Crush, Thrust, Staff, Two Handed, Polearm and Crossbow
Vampiir - Piercing
Blademaster - Blades, Blunt and Piercing
Hero - Blades, Blunt and Piercing, Large Weapons and Celtic Spear
Ranger - Archery * 2)
Hunter - Archery * 2)
Savage - Staff
Berserker - Axes, Swords, Hammers, Staff and Thrown
Warrior - Staff and Thrown

The only highest table is Factor 23 (Warrior only table based on 1.56 patch if they have that in here)

Miss information for you, correct information for me. Notice nothing about archer melee on this table which is the highest in the game

Edit: The *2 is a note moved to magic attack

So there is a higher dmg table (warrior) and lower (17-5) ... Where have i been wrong? You did not specify it further in the first place.

Still, even if scouts would hit for 1k with bow, they are easy rp in melee... Even wit 50/50 weapon/shield which is ridicolous.

Thu 19 Dec 2019 11:57 AM by chois

They re easy cause few realize the shield line is not only for slam, u blok u deal more, more u blok more u ll be buffed ( hast 20%, ad damage, abla , heal ect..)

Thu 19 Dec 2019 12:44 PM by inoeth

chois wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 11:57 AM
They re easy cause few realize the shield line is not only for slam, u blok u deal more, more u blok more u ll be buffed ( hast 20%, ad damage, abla , heal ect..)

yeah but thats the point you dont block enough. you said it yourself shield spec is a joke

Thu 19 Dec 2019 3:13 PM by chois

Yep its a joke for the investment 50 pts spec and 34 ra pts to not blok more than 40% , when u see without 0 pts a ns or sb evade u for 38%, that q the joke.

Thu 19 Dec 2019 3:14 PM by chois

The worst is u can not do nothing without Mob 9, i want to say to have a little hope in melee, without blok 9 melee for scout is a total suicide.

Thu 19 Dec 2019 4:29 PM by asnusia

my experience is with 50+16 shield (6L3) mob 7 (18% block) 298 dex i have between 37%-51% block chance (37% vs assassins - 51% vs low ws table 1h or 2h enemis like skalds, high ws table tank are in the middle like 43 44%)

Landing a stun vs an assassin means nothing even if you slam and crit+arrow you die, yesterday for example i use numb to trick purge, 10 - 12s in melee - slam - crit + arrow and the sb was over 60% hp me at 15% because debuff poison is an automatic loss of 500 hp, viper tick for 102 dmg, and in 10 -12 s in melee he deal to me 7-8 swing * an avarage of 150-200dmg

Thu 19 Dec 2019 4:59 PM by Sepplord

why would a ranged character stand a chance against a melee char, when the fight starts in melee...

that's one thing i have never understood in the archer VS assassin discussion, but sooo many people seem to think that meleefights should be close, while archers also have ranged capabilities

Thu 19 Dec 2019 5:23 PM by inoeth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 4:59 PM
why would a ranged character stand a chance against a melee char, when the fight starts in melee...

that's one thing i have never understood in the archer VS assassin discussion, but sooo many people seem to think that meleefights should be close, while archers also have ranged capabilities

dude not that again, its not possible to use bow...
90% of all fights are melee
or
you stand on a tower and add every fight that is in range... pretty fun aint it?
scouts are not playable at the current state without high rr. is that intended? i mean is scout the one class that is intended to spend RP to all others? who really wants to play such a class?

also this is not about scout vs assassins its scout vs any class. even supporters and casters laugh about scouts. either they just run away or quick cast you down.

i really thought it cant be so hard and lvled a scout myself and after playing some days in rvr i cant say anything else than scout really really sucks. no matter what spec i tried, it always ends with the death of my scout.
maybe i am just a really bad scout player but i highly doubt that.

after all this is a game and the intention of games is that its for fun, but scout is no fun at all.
something has to be done

Thu 26 Dec 2019 10:05 AM by Pao

Scout needs more skillpoints. That would help and isn't gamebreaking.

Thu 26 Dec 2019 10:07 PM by Highfather17

Scouts might be the worst class on the server.

They need something.

Thu 26 Dec 2019 11:25 PM by Forlornhope

Start by giving them self buffs, then gauge how and if that helps. the proposed change posted today is stupid and really won't help. Cool, you can 99% snare someone at the sacrifice of so many spec points it's laughable. With no dps on bow or melee it's basically just giving them an escape tool. That's ignoring the problem with the class, yeah it will be strong in stealth groups but they don't need help in the aspect of groups.

Mon 30 Dec 2019 9:02 PM by easytoremember

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 5:23 PM
dude not that again, its not possible to use bow...
90% of all fights are melee
or
you stand on a tower and add every fight that is in range... pretty fun aint it?

What do you think an archer is?

If anything the scout should have bigger damage capability with bow than hunter or ranger due to being a pure ranged, so far as to remove shield spec if such was demanded in the tradeoff so be it; you treat slam like it's worthless anyway
Ranger is proficient in melee as is hunter to a lesser degree but augmented by a pet

Overall archery should still have humble damage due to its range and having stealth

Mon 30 Dec 2019 9:05 PM by easytoremember

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Dec 2019 11:25 PM
Start by giving them self buffs

100% opposed
The further mirroring of the archers in ToA was among the gayest things about it

Mon 30 Dec 2019 9:20 PM by Riac

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 5:23 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 4:59 PM
why would a ranged character stand a chance against a melee char, when the fight starts in melee...

that's one thing i have never understood in the archer VS assassin discussion, but sooo many people seem to think that meleefights should be close, while archers also have ranged capabilities

dude not that again, its not possible to use bow...
90% of all fights are melee

soooo, are you speced into bow? if so, id ask why? considering 90% of fights start in melee why would you put anything into ranged abilities?

i realize youre a scout and are going to spec bow, but it seems ridiculous that you want the ranged capabilities as well as the melee ones.

Tue 31 Dec 2019 8:24 AM by inoeth

Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Dec 2019 9:20 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 5:23 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 4:59 PM
why would a ranged character stand a chance against a melee char, when the fight starts in melee...

that's one thing i have never understood in the archer VS assassin discussion, but sooo many people seem to think that meleefights should be close, while archers also have ranged capabilities

dude not that again, its not possible to use bow...
90% of all fights are melee

soooo, are you speced into bow? if so, id ask why? considering 90% of fights start in melee why would you put anything into ranged abilities?

i realize youre a scout and are going to spec bow, but it seems ridiculous that you want the ranged capabilities as well as the melee ones.

actually im more of a melee archer type, but its not possible with scout until rr8-9. they laugh about you hitting them with 80 dmg ;/ so the only thing that actually does dmg is the bow

Tue 31 Dec 2019 2:59 PM by Horus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Dec 2019 4:59 PM
why would a ranged character stand a chance against a melee char, when the fight starts in melee...

that's one thing i have never understood in the archer VS assassin discussion, but sooo many people seem to think that meleefights should be close, while archers also have ranged capabilities

I agree with you. This would not be an issue if any archer class could get kills at range with a bow. I have no problem losing melee fights that start with melee if my bow spec could actually get kills at range.

Right now too many options to mitigate ranged bow dmg. If I am full bow with high RR with RAs to max out range bow DPS I should be able to kill at least a few squishier classes at range with bow when I catch them. RIght now there is not one class a max bow spec can kill at range unless they are AFK or distracted fighting someone or something else.

Wed 1 Jan 2020 9:18 AM by Siouxsie

The biggest problem with ranged, archer classes is the fact the stealth system has been ripped up and redone poorly.
Put back the old stealth system:
1) Give archers camouflage again
2) Give Minstrels really poor stealth and easily detected from afar (like they're supposed to be)
3) Give archers Truesight and PD

Of course all the assassins will whine, but they are already the most overpowered class on the server.

Right now, spec'ing for bow is a complete waste of time because bow damage is utter shit.

Wed 1 Jan 2020 12:14 PM by Pao

I think stealth is no issue. As it is now you can avoid getting perfed by a sin.

PD is too strong on a ranger/hunter.

All archer have low bow dmg thats the main issue and it harms their core playstyle. With the scout upgrade now, all archer are as bad as the other ones.

I can understand their motivation. Good bow damage would have a big impact on siege wars / 8vs8 / small man because there is always an archer around adding the fight.

Wed 1 Jan 2020 1:11 PM by Gohanssj

Well, what they have done is broke scouts, their new ability is way too OP that it's become ridiculous. All the needed was a boost in either melee or bow dmg when speccing high in those (noticed dmg on here doesn't seem to change much with spec, the custom melee system seems super broken).

Weird tho that other than SB's this hasn't helped them v stealthers, but a BM, Hero, Warrior, savage, zerker etc. etc. can't beat a scout, if they block enough they might not die, but they definitely can't win

Wed 1 Jan 2020 1:14 PM by Gohanssj

Pao wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jan 2020 12:14 PM
I think stealth is no issue. As it is now you can avoid getting perfed by a sin.

PD is too strong on a ranger/hunter.

All archer have low bow dmg thats the main issue and it harms their core playstyle. With the scout upgrade now, all archer are as bad as the other ones.

I can understand their motivation. Good bow damage would have a big impact on siege wars / 8vs8 / small man because there is always an archer around adding the fight.

But there always has been, that's part and parcel of the game, I don't understand why that gets changed yet we persist in letting minstrels have free purge and pet purge, or instant mez and speed 6 because "it's always been like that" one rule for some but not for all

Wed 1 Jan 2020 2:08 PM by gotwqqd

They should have just put a range only damage boost in the archery line

Wed 1 Jan 2020 4:23 PM by Lyktemenn

for me its now almost impossible to kill the random scout. scouts now just run from me /wave - like assasins use vanish (oh what do i say - vanish on a 1v1 .... never !!!!)... just die with your boots on -
i´m glad that stealthed classes are allowed (mostly) to pick their fights but running like little girls after noticing that this does not work is just ... lame :-> (well at least for me haha)

What i like to say - i will live with the new style... but i dont think this will help scouts... its just a -i can attack everyone i want and then i run away when its getting too hot - tool.

(id like to thank all the guys that dont run and always try to provide a good fight - you know who i mean)
greetings - the dead horse
Ljosfari

Wed 1 Jan 2020 4:41 PM by Cadebrennus

Gohanssj wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Jan 2020 1:11 PM
Well, what they have done is broke scouts, their new ability is way too OP that it's become ridiculous. All the needed was a boost in either melee or bow dmg when speccing high in those (noticed dmg on here doesn't seem to change much with spec, the custom melee system seems super broken).

Weird tho that other than SB's this hasn't helped them v stealthers, but a BM, Hero, Warrior, savage, zerker etc. etc. can't beat a scout, if they block enough they might not die, but they definitely can't win

All but Savage and Zerker can Engage. Even with very little in the Shield line the others can passively block a lot of damage from Archery. If the player isn't smart enough to equip a Shield then they deserve to die. Hell, even my Ranger runs around with a Small Shield to block arrows, because it's painfully easy to counter Archery, even with no Shield spec.

Wed 1 Jan 2020 5:19 PM by chois

a lot can engage, other can dd, other can throw weapon, other use charge dd, or dodge the fight, have to remember we have zero speed to grabe the dodging target so.... if u see the overpower of this style oO, and even, it s more great than stun on blok 5 sec snare side and go range. For me it s just an escape tool, so not at all what the scout need

Wed 1 Jan 2020 11:30 PM by Pao

Everyone says that they lose against a Scout 1vs1 is gimp. The new style is easy to counter, just interrupt in some way. Rest is all the same. At least being a scout has become a bit more bearable.