Nerf GTAE - Phoenix Freeshard

Hey,

What is wrong with the Harder Zerg ? 50 Mids in the Tower ruppt by 20 GTAE'S from Wizards thats to Crazy for Defend a Tower.

Please Nerv max 5 GTAES in Tower .. 20 Gtaes are to Heavy crashed the RvR Tower Defender

Tue 12 Nov 2019 1:25 PM by Razur Ur

Keep defending the same problem and turm = tower ^_^

Tue 12 Nov 2019 5:29 PM by Bequick

Don't you guys have gtaoe?

Tue 12 Nov 2019 6:56 PM by Saldinna

Bequick wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Nov 2019 5:29 PM
Don't you guys have gtaoe?

I have one yes but u see max 5 Runis in a BG and 30 Wizis

Tue 12 Nov 2019 8:43 PM by gotwqqd

Saldinna wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Nov 2019 6:56 PM
Bequick wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Nov 2019 5:29 PM
Don't you guys have gtaoe?

I have one yes but u see max 5 Runis in a BG and 30 Wizis

Sounds like one realm is utilizing their characters vetter

Tue 12 Nov 2019 9:09 PM by Mavella

Imagine if all the bds rerolled rm!

Tue 12 Nov 2019 9:38 PM by Wolfir666

Well i love GTAE, and i think more and more people are currently finding towards it

Just remember the weekends, when there was all of Midgard red/green but Bledmeer..
Well.. i am one of those, that logged their RC-RM in Bled, and it's fun ^^

Personally i do understand, why people can be annoyed with it, but the game always was about rupting and counter-rupting.

Just use some GTAE as well, if you use a tank as spotter, you even might have him survive long enough to place the GT, and then you can assist it.

But GTAE usually doesnt do much damage and has a recast of 6sec, it only kills you, if several people assist at the same time or you are AFK and not moving away.

So yes, i like it, but to be honest i do not think it needs to be nerfed. It's like with shrooms, its more or less positional, just avoid it, stand somewhere else, or take actions against it. (like counter-GTAE)

Wed 13 Nov 2019 2:40 AM by Azrael

I read that a gtae hits the whole tower if you place it in the middle. That is the only part they could adjust, rest is fine imo. It was intended to rupt even if you have no los. But it is nteresting to see the negativ side effect if you try to buff a class. With old abilities nobody would probably play a earth wizard. -.- I am still surprised if I get nearsighted by a wizard - haha

Wed 13 Nov 2019 7:02 AM by Razur Ur

some guys love gtae because of nice bug abuse ;-).

Wed 13 Nov 2019 7:40 AM by Wolfir666

Azrael wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Nov 2019 2:40 AM
I read that a gtae hits the whole tower if you place it in the middle. That is the only part they could adjust, rest is fine imo. It was intended to rupt even if you have no los. But it is nteresting to see the negativ side effect if you try to buff a class. With old abilities nobody would probably play a earth wizard. -.- I am still surprised if I get nearsighted by a wizard - haha

Nah it still has a range by itself, you never hit the whole tower with all floors. of course you can adjust the height quickly in the 6sec until the next cast, so if you dont hit enough, you can put it higher or lower then.
But as you cant save a macro for a certain height, and you also cant directly see where you actually place it inside the tower when being outside, it is a lot like trying to find the light-switch in a dark room ^^

Wed 13 Nov 2019 8:00 AM by canzian

1-2 gtaoe is not the problem...
10-15 yes

Wed 13 Nov 2019 8:30 AM by Nunki

Every realm has gtae.

We could discuss the following points:

- % of classes with gtae in a group / zerg:
Harder Zerg is usually About 20-30 % bigger than Midzerg with a HUGE amount of Earth-(OP) Wizards.
With the earth-line buff they made Wizards viable, which is nice.
In my opinion too viable in zerg-fights:
NS, Matter-Debuff for own specc casts, AE-DD, AE-Dot, DD-Snare, GTAE, AE-Root.
Coordination and utilisation is a huge point which you can compensate by sheer mass.

- Z-axis range for gtae casts
If set correctly, hitting 2 floors at the same time is possible.
Rarely caused problems due to missing awareness/utilisation and other spec lines beeing more popular.

- Awareness and utilisation
While I never played Alb on Phoenix, I assume that Harder clearly tells everybody how they should play to succeed.
Scout Volley assists, GTAE's everywhere and permanent spam of the aggro pets (especially Caba pets) which get permanently healed is a real pain in the ****.

At the current state, given the tools they have, Albion has huge advantages in zerg-fights.
Commands, tool awareness and utilisation is a huge point but not the only one.

I see potential in nerfing the z-range of GTAE, recast time or overall utility of earth-wizards.
Huge % of earth-wizards is the main point.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 1:28 AM by daytonchambers

Its the hitting multiple floors with one cast that is game breaking. 2-3 GTAE casters can all but completely shut down the defense of a tower, there's simply no place where you can cast a heal.

TWF Z-axis was adjusted for this same issue, there's no reason it cant be fixed for GTAE.

I find it odd that the people doing the balancing feel that Animists need to essentially stand on top of their ground target to use a core ability to the class, yet this ground target AoE bullshit is perfectly fine.

And before the whole "all realms have GTAE, stop crying" argument comes into play, Earth wizards and DarkCarver RMs are far, far more common than Void Eldritches in RvR due to the utilities available to them which are solid even without GTAE. So they're played a hell of a lot more.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 2:44 AM by thirian24

It's funny that mids are bitching about this. Lmfao

Thu 14 Nov 2019 3:36 AM by easytoremember

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 1:28 AM
Its the hitting multiple floors with one cast that is game breaking. 2-3 GTAE casters can all but completely shut down the defense of a tower, there's simply no place where you can cast a heal.

TWF Z-axis was adjusted for this same issue, there's no reason it cant be fixed for GTAE.

I find it odd that the people doing the balancing feel that Animists need to essentially stand on top of their ground target to use a core ability to the class, yet this ground target AoE bullshit is perfectly fine.

And before the whole "all realms have GTAE, stop crying" argument comes into play, Earth wizards and DarkCarver RMs are far, far more common than Void Eldritches in RvR due to the utilities available to them which are solid even without GTAE. So they're played a hell of a lot more.

Z-axis on TWF is as it always has been,
what they did was require LOS to the TWF's center for ticks to hit things

For animists the point is to prevent them from summoning shrooms onto tower/keep ledges from below

In exchange for GTAoE you have stun nuking debuff trains out the ass

Thu 14 Nov 2019 3:41 AM by ExcretusMaximus

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 3:36 AM
Z-axis on TWF is as it always has been

No it's not, they've changed it multiple times in the last six months.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 5:48 AM by daytonchambers

easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 3:36 AM
In exchange for GTAoE you have stun nuking debuff trains out the ass

Every realm runs debuff caster groups, and in these groups is one class that can stun. Cleric stuns, Healer stuns. To believe otherwise simply proves that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Did you honestly try to turn this into a baseline stun whine?

Thu 14 Nov 2019 9:09 AM by Wolfir666

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 5:48 AM
easytoremember wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 3:36 AM
In exchange for GTAoE you have stun nuking debuff trains out the ass

Every realm runs debuff caster groups, and in these groups is one class that can stun. Cleric stuns, Healer stuns. To believe otherwise simply proves that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Did you honestly try to turn this into a baseline stun whine?

Even though that's true you also will have to admit that the chance to stand in a healer stun is way smaller than the chance to stand in a baseline caster stun.
As every hib caster except animist got it.
As every hib caster except animist uses it except they are in 8man with slambot.
As by far not every mid caster runs together with a healer.

So obviously the hib caster stun happens a lot more often than a mid healer stun.
But maybe one doesn't notice that as much when one only runs 8man , who knows.

And you didn't even dare to compare the hib baseline stun to a cleric stun did you? Lol.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 1:50 PM by Fugax

I totally understand the Devs need to look into this. IF you all remember back on live the towers were significantly bigger as well than our current danky ones that make it super easy to GTAOE.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 6:32 PM by daytonchambers

Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 9:09 AM
And you didn't even dare to compare the hib baseline stun to a cleric stun did you? Lol.

in the context of stun-debuff-nuke groups, which is clearly what I was talking about, they are absolutely the same.

Baseline stun to lock a char in place while the group debuff-nukes that target to oblivion.

So, yeah, I "dared" to compare the two within that context. Because it's 100% accurate.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 9:19 PM by Ploen

I personaly think the range or the area is to much with gtae. Its impossible to heal inside a tower that is getting attacked by a zerg.
If you go up on the roof, you get insta killed by all the rangers volleys. They do way to much damage and way to fast. And the Lordroom and Oil area should not be castable with GTAE.. The groundfloor and roof ok.

Or just lower the area effect range.. i think its 350? reduce this to maybe 175 or 200. I am not sure on the exact numbers.

But it should be possible to defend a tower zerg vs zerg. But Inside a tower its really not fun.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:41 PM by florin

It’s pretty much why i stopped playing. You had 5 or more archers locking down the roofs. Catapults and siege as well. Then a crapload of casters gtaeing every floor. There was no spot to sit and med or from which to defend and it was simply a matter of time before doors are down and tower takes are inevitable. So you get counter attackers instead - wait till door is down and bomb the attackers on lord. It’s no longer attack / defend but about out zerging the attacking zerg.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:45 PM by gotwqqd

florin wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:41 PM
It’s pretty much why i stopped playing. You had 5 or more archers locking down the roofs. Catapults and siege as well. Then a crapload of casters gtaeing every floor. There was no spot to sit and med or from which to defend and it was simply a matter of time before doors are down and tower takes are inevitable. So you get counter attackers instead - wait till door is down and bomb the attackers on lord. It’s no longer attack / defend but about out zerging the attacking zerg.

I don’t think towers should be some massive defensive force. Tower defense should allow a large attacking force to overrun it. Defense should rely greatly on troops on the ground mixed with those inside....it’s not a walled keep.

Thu 14 Nov 2019 11:11 PM by easytoremember

If you're going to gut the radius of GTAoE the damage delve should go up

Thu 14 Nov 2019 11:17 PM by florin

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:45 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:41 PM
It’s pretty much why i stopped playing. You had 5 or more archers locking down the roofs. Catapults and siege as well. Then a crapload of casters gtaeing every floor. There was no spot to sit and med or from which to defend and it was simply a matter of time before doors are down and tower takes are inevitable. So you get counter attackers instead - wait till door is down and bomb the attackers on lord. It’s no longer attack / defend but about out zerging the attacking zerg.
I don’t think towers should be some massive defensive force. Tower defense should allow a large attacking force to overrun it. Defense should rely greatly on troops on the ground mixed with those inside....it’s not a walled keep.

They are defensive structures and defenders should always get a defense bonus. A smaller numbers of defenders should be able to hold off a larger force. Sure it’s a speed bump in many instances but gtaoe completely breaks the point of having walls and doors. It’s not a walled keep, it’s a walled tower

Fri 15 Nov 2019 9:02 AM by Wolfir666

Ploen wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 9:19 PM
And the Lordroom and Oil area should not be castable with GTAE.. The groundfloor and roof ok.

Sorry, but every area, where somebody can stand and Cast GTAE, can recast Shrooms, can Heal and Rebuff, every of these Areas also should be possible to be casted on.
There is no reason to give a total safespot inside the tower for those defending and still actively joining into the fight supporting others.
Else the bombgroups/Animists just will wait in Lordroom for the attackers coming up and attackers won't even have a chance to stop them from farming the stairs!

GTAE is important for supporting an attack and by the way also a defense, don't forget, that you as well can cast GTAE from inside the Tower towards the door-area dealing damage to all those inside or close to the Rams.

Of course i understand, that a good amount of GTAE can be no fun, but honestly, with what right should a smaller force being "caught" inside a tower being able to fend off a bigger force?
Yes you can reason with defensive structures, but if you want to name realism, then lets talk about no food, no water, no healers, no place to seperate dieing people from healthy people, basically nothing, that helps defenders in a small tower to withstand a raid for long.

So no, a tower itself should not be able to hold back a larger opposing force, it just should allow you to deal some damage while being attacked, what it does, due to own GTAE/Shrooms/Rooftop to a certain degree.
But to really fend off a larger attacking force, you always will have to use tactics, like jumping down from behind, waiting for reinforcements attacking the back of the attacking zerg, and things alike.

Edit:
And seriously, you know, what would happen, if you make Towers stronger?
More 8man will go towards waiting out in Towers, hoping to farm a lot of RPs of those attacking, it happens already now, but of course only to a certain degree, thanks to GTAE for example..
Basically strengthening Tower-Defenses would lead to a more stale gameplay for that matter.

Sat 16 Nov 2019 4:06 PM by Lillebror

How you even get them inside the tower on all levels while doors are up?

Damage on roof and oil area is fine since ppl can climb and give them but inside a closed area i dont understand

Sat 16 Nov 2019 7:38 PM by Wolfir666

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Nov 2019 4:06 PM
How you even get them inside the tower on all levels while doors are up?

Damage on roof and oil area is fine since ppl can climb and give them but inside a closed area i dont understand

Same as I don't understand how group or spread heal works through doors or walls. Healers should have to touch the one they are healing.
And it's not as if those inside the tower can't cast gtae on the ram at the door.
And bomb spells also hit those on stairs not even in LoS of the bomb.
Yes there was sarcasm involved.
It's simply magic😊

Mon 2 Dec 2019 7:54 PM by daytonchambers

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:45 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:41 PM
It’s pretty much why i stopped playing. You had 5 or more archers locking down the roofs. Catapults and siege as well. Then a crapload of casters gtaeing every floor. There was no spot to sit and med or from which to defend and it was simply a matter of time before doors are down and tower takes are inevitable. So you get counter attackers instead - wait till door is down and bomb the attackers on lord. It’s no longer attack / defend but about out zerging the attacking zerg.
I don’t think towers should be some massive defensive force. Tower defense should allow a large attacking force to overrun it. Defense should rely greatly on troops on the ground mixed with those inside....it’s not a walled keep.

With the current GT mechanics the defensive structure of a tower is more of a liability than an asset. The meta for tower/keep taking on Phoenix is to coat the roof with catapult shot and cover the insides with gtaoe. This makes defending pointless as you cant move around enough to avoid being hit. So you get chain interrupted until you die. That's stupid, and broken.

The problem really isnt gtaoe but with ground-targetting itself. In later patches on live it was nerfed so that you couldn't place a ground target on a spot you could not see. Once placed however you could GTaoe that spot without line of sight. That made GT spells defensive in nature, and not the BS we are seeing on phoenix today

Mon 2 Dec 2019 7:57 PM by Riac

being able to assist on a gt is also pretty garbage. i know its been around for forever, but its still dumb.

Mon 2 Dec 2019 9:59 PM by Sepplord

I must say, i was against most nerfs after nerfs after nerfs and the question really is: if gtaoe is nerfed, whats the next big whine

But, when attacking the offensive force from behind in open field is a better Plan than to utilize structures for defense then there is a problem

Tue 3 Dec 2019 2:03 AM by gotwqqd

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Mon 2 Dec 2019 7:54 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:45 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 10:41 PM
It’s pretty much why i stopped playing. You had 5 or more archers locking down the roofs. Catapults and siege as well. Then a crapload of casters gtaeing every floor. There was no spot to sit and med or from which to defend and it was simply a matter of time before doors are down and tower takes are inevitable. So you get counter attackers instead - wait till door is down and bomb the attackers on lord. It’s no longer attack / defend but about out zerging the attacking zerg.
I don’t think towers should be some massive defensive force. Tower defense should allow a large attacking force to overrun it. Defense should rely greatly on troops on the ground mixed with those inside....it’s not a walled keep.

With the current GT mechanics the defensive structure of a tower is more of a liability than an asset. The meta for tower/keep taking on Phoenix is to coat the roof with catapult shot and cover the insides with gtaoe. This makes defending pointless as you cant move around enough to avoid being hit. So you get chain interrupted until you die. That's stupid, and broken.

The problem really isnt gtaoe but with ground-targetting itself. In later patches on live it was nerfed so that you couldn't place a ground target on a spot you could not see. Once placed however you could GTaoe that spot without line of sight. That made GT spells defensive in nature, and not the BS we are seeing on phoenix today

It’s tower
If the force outside is large you need to get help to combat them from the ground in addition to help from those within tower

Thu 5 Dec 2019 3:04 AM by daytonchambers

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 3 Dec 2019 2:03 AM
It’s tower
If the force outside is large you need to get help to combat them from the ground in addition to help from those within tower

Ok, for this logic to make sense then look at keeps themselves. The primary defense point on a main keep is the wall section right above the door where the oil is, and this location is just as prone to the siege/GTAE problem that the towers have. The inner keep section where the lord is ALSO has this problem, albeit not as much since the surface area is a bit bigger and you might get lucky and not get hit. Key word being might.

So if, according to you, towers need an outside aid to be able to defend them then these points would need that same thing, making keep defense by a smaller force a pointless exercise.

So I say again, this is stupid and broken.

Thu 5 Dec 2019 3:10 AM by gotwqqd

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Dec 2019 3:04 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 3 Dec 2019 2:03 AM
It’s tower
If the force outside is large you need to get help to combat them from the ground in addition to help from those within tower

Ok, for this logic to make sense then look at keeps themselves. The primary defense point on a main keep is the wall section right above the door where the oil is, and this location is just as prone to the siege/GTAE problem that the towers have. The inner keep section where the lord is ALSO has this problem, albeit not as much since the surface area is a bit bigger and you might get lucky and not get hit. Key word being might.

So if, according to you, towers need an outside aid to be able to defend them then these points would need that same thing, making keep defense by a smaller force a pointless exercise.

So I say again, this is stupid and broken.

Don’t try to equate towers to keeps

Thu 5 Dec 2019 3:28 AM by daytonchambers

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Dec 2019 3:10 AM
Don’t try to equate towers to keeps

The structure is not the issue. The bypassing and therefore rendering a defensive structure pointless is the issue.

If the same defensive handicap occurs on a keeps key defense points when being hit by gtAoE, which it does, then yeah I will equate the two. Because the problem with the current mechanics apply to both.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 2 Dec 2019 9:59 PM
"But, when attacking the offensive force from behind in open field is a better Plan than to utilize structures for defense then there is a problem"

What this guy said. When you have to abandon a defensive position in order to gain defensive footing there's something horribly out of balance.

Thu 5 Dec 2019 9:34 AM by Wolfir666

I still don't understand, why a small tower should provide more defensive power than it holds.

The smaller the force involved into a Tower-siege, the more bonus it applies to defense.

1) It is not meant to give 8mans a solid defense against a zerg!
If that was the case, 8mans just would take towers and sit out in them waiting for anybody to raid it, making the whole RvR more stale.

2) It is not meant to provide an equal sized zerg a solid defense against a zerg!
The more people inside a small tower, the less effective they will be. Of course! And i also don't see a problem with that, as a Keep is meant to be a defensive structure, a Tower just is something small to quickly raid to stop Teleports!

3) You will notice, that the smaller the forces are, the more effect the defense of a tower provides.
For example 8man vs 8man never will successfully raid a Tower, how would they be able to do that?

4) And when you talk about Realism, you know its exactly the same.. a large force would have been stupid to hide in a small tower, taking away their agility, their strength and their options to actively counter a large-scale attack against that small tower. No clever army ever would have done that, to hide themselves in a small tower even hoping to successfully defend a larger attacker that got the logistics, the siegemachines and the manpower to first cripple them and them stomp them into the ground.

So to sum it up, Towers imho are working as intended, they are only effective in small-scale RvR, to call it that.
For large-scale RvR Towers are just what they are, quick positions to raid and re-raid.
Towers are interesting for "Guerilla-Tactics", not for large-scale Siege-Warfare.

Thu 5 Dec 2019 2:44 PM by Nunki

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Nov 2019 6:32 PM
in the context of stun-debuff-nuke groups, which is clearly what I was talking about, they are absolutely the same.

Baseline stun to lock a char in place while the group debuff-nukes that target to oblivion.

So, yeah, I "dared" to compare the two within that context. Because it's 100% accurate.

100% accurate?
Ignoring differences in casting speed, positioning and group-role?

If you ever find a cleric in 1500 range to any other enemy group member the cleric either failed or had no space to avoid that.
Heck, as a cleric you don't even want 2300 range because of Nearsight.
You stay on max healing range to your off-tank (or if required, desease healing range).
You will most likely not even target an enemy. Even in full Alb debuff-nuke groups you will mostly either receive a slam or no CC at all.

Don't get me wrong. I don't complain about Hib baseline stun. It simply doesn't make sense to compare it.

We have three assymetric realms for a reason and this setup is one reason why DAoC is still somehow alive.

Sat 7 Dec 2019 7:39 AM by daytonchambers

Nunki I've personally been smite stunned by roaming groups of albs using Hillside LOS around DC to bait dummies like myself into peeking over the edge, eating a smite stun, and then getting debuff blasted to smithereens. So there are clerics out there doing exactly what you're swearing they never do.

I stand by my earlier statement that as far as group play is concerned stun nuke nuke is not unique to Hibernia.

Sat 7 Dec 2019 7:59 AM by daytonchambers

Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Thu 5 Dec 2019 9:34 AM
1) It is not meant to give 8mans a solid defense against a zerg!
If that was the case, 8mans just would take towers and sit out in them waiting for anybody to raid it, making the whole RvR more stale.

3) You will notice, that the smaller the forces are, the more effect the defense of a tower provides.
For example 8man vs 8man never will successfully raid a Tower, how would they be able to do that?

1) You have clearly never seen a Team Wizzy video where 1fg in a defensive structure beat out zergs many times larger. So there is precedent within this very game for that capability.

3) The smaller the forces the more effect the defense? I'd say that has more to do with red guards than the structure itself. If 0 guards were there then an attacking smallman with GtAoE could render casting impossible for a defending smallman group in the exact same way that it's done when more players are involved.

Don't believe me? Take any ranged damage dealer vs a GT caster and go duel at a tower. 1v1, gt guy outside and the other ranged person defending the tower. Guaranteed the dude inside will be forced to leave that tower in order to have a chance at winning.

So to sum it up, towers as a defensive barrier imho are NOT working as intended as they are innefective in any scale of RvR when GT spells are involved.