Was a bow damage nerf needed? - Phoenix Freeshard

There is a formula to attempt some semblance of balance. Damage vs HPs. If one side is adjusted if affects the over all balance. Bow damage just got 2 nerfs. It was already impossible to kill someone (who is paying attention) at range with a bow given all the mitigating defensive options the target has. Now you decrease the dmg% / shot of total HPs by increasing the HPs. Additionally, you change the armor vulnerability. At least with archers you could argue that although bow dmg was low you had the option of picking the dmg type of your arrows to match armor vulnerability. This benefit was just nerfed as well.

These changes have an excessive impact on bow damage and the function of the ranged archer class. Was this considered when implementing the changes?

Sat 16 Nov 2019 10:46 AM by Siouxsie

Bow damage formula has always been broken here. Bow damage is far too low. Spec'ing above 35 bow is useless and only gets you a paltry 15-20 more damage per shot.

Sat 16 Nov 2019 11:42 AM by

gruenesschaf

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Nov 2019 10:46 AM
Bow damage formula has always been broken here. Bow damage is far too low. Spec'ing above 35 bow is useless and only gets you a paltry 15-20 more damage per shot.

Some players have always claimed that the bow damage formula is broken here without ever providing anything that would show that it indeed is broken and looking at ancient forum posts (aka forum posts with the old archery mechanic around) you find references to using a low bow spec as speccing higher doesn't really provide a noticeable damage boost, further, given the right conditions (admittedly rare as people here actually usually have resists capped and are running with spec af) cap hits or hits close to cap are possible which is also in line with what it should be.
Does the 52 weapon spec cap against a level 50 enemy feel stupid? Absolutely, however, that's how the melee and therefore old archery formula works. Just stop with this kind of claim unless you can back it up.

To rephrase:
The melee formula results in values that are reasonably close to what can be seen on pendragon when we use the same player af and given the same stats (within 1 - 2%, usually even +-1 damage point due to rounding) and the damage values remain within these 1 - 2% when stats change (spec, buffs, debuffs), therefore it can be reasonbly assumed that the melee formula is good enough. Then there is the assumption that the old archery mechanic is using the same melee formula, which can at this time only be tested via cross bow on arms. Basically old archery is unstyled melee hits with the arrows providing a damage multiplier and to hit bonus which could be somewhat compared to styles (although not really as style damage is not exactly a static multiplier). New / current archery is literally spell casting with some spells having slash, thrust or crush damage types and bow draw animations.

Mon 18 Nov 2019 3:14 PM by Horus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Nov 2019 11:42 AM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Nov 2019 10:46 AM
Bow damage formula has always been broken here. Bow damage is far too low. Spec'ing above 35 bow is useless and only gets you a paltry 15-20 more damage per shot.

Some players have always claimed that the bow damage formula is broken here without ever providing anything that would show that it indeed is broken and looking at ancient forum posts (aka forum posts with the old archery mechanic around) you find references to using a low bow spec as speccing higher doesn't really provide a noticeable damage boost, further, given the right conditions (admittedly rare as people here actually usually have resists capped and are running with spec af) cap hits or hits close to cap are possible which is also in line with what it should be.
Does the 52 weapon spec cap against a level 50 enemy feel stupid? Absolutely, however, that's how the melee and therefore old archery formula works. Just stop with this kind of claim unless you can back it up.

To rephrase:
The melee formula results in values that are reasonably close to what can be seen on pendragon when we use the same player af and given the same stats (within 1 - 2%, usually even +-1 damage point due to rounding) and the damage values remain within these 1 - 2% when stats change (spec, buffs, debuffs), therefore it can be reasonbly assumed that the melee formula is good enough. Then there is the assumption that the old archery mechanic is using the same melee formula, which can at this time only be tested via cross bow on arms. Basically old archery is unstyled melee hits with the arrows providing a damage multiplier and to hit bonus which could be somewhat compared to styles (although not really as style damage is not exactly a static multiplier). New / current archery is literally spell casting with some spells having slash, thrust or crush damage types and bow draw animations.

Couple replies...
Can you clarify the "52 weapon spec cap" (if you have and I missed, I apologize). Does this mean having a composite bow spec >52 offers no benefit at all or just minimal?

Also in regard to original posting, because the latest HP / armor resist changes both hit bow dmg. Every shot now takes a smaller percentage of the targets total HP. This is no big deal in standard melee because both targets received a boost... you just fight a little longer. However the interrupt mechanic kicks in for archery. The function of archery is burst damage before being interrupted. Maybe a possible mitigating fix would be to make Rapid Fire un-interuptable? This would also address the whole "no point to spec bow" discussion often brought up.

Mon 18 Nov 2019 4:01 PM by Sepplord

Rapidfire being uninteruptible would break archery completely though

Archers could just rapidfire anyone to death without worrying about interuppt. RF dps isnt even lower, cant make it uninteruptible

Mon 18 Nov 2019 4:09 PM by Insanity84

Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Nov 2019 3:14 PM
Maybe a possible mitigating fix would be to make Rapid Fire un-interuptable? This would also address the whole "no point to spec bow" discussion often brought up.

That would be far (!) too overpowered, really. It's like giving a caster permanent MoC.
I like the direction of the idea, in a more balanced form, some kind of quick draw like casters quick cast.
I've lost interest on my scout because of that one reason, too much vulnerability through interrupts and nearly no chance to recover.
But i am not a good player anyway, so that's probably the main reason why i sucked on my scout and switched to wizard.

Mon 18 Nov 2019 11:16 PM by gromet12

Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Nov 2019 3:14 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Nov 2019 11:42 AM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Nov 2019 10:46 AM
Bow damage formula has always been broken here. Bow damage is far too low. Spec'ing above 35 bow is useless and only gets you a paltry 15-20 more damage per shot.

Some players have always claimed that the bow damage formula is broken here without ever providing anything that would show that it indeed is broken and looking at ancient forum posts (aka forum posts with the old archery mechanic around) you find references to using a low bow spec as speccing higher doesn't really provide a noticeable damage boost, further, given the right conditions (admittedly rare as people here actually usually have resists capped and are running with spec af) cap hits or hits close to cap are possible which is also in line with what it should be.
Does the 52 weapon spec cap against a level 50 enemy feel stupid? Absolutely, however, that's how the melee and therefore old archery formula works. Just stop with this kind of claim unless you can back it up.

To rephrase:
The melee formula results in values that are reasonably close to what can be seen on pendragon when we use the same player af and given the same stats (within 1 - 2%, usually even +-1 damage point due to rounding) and the damage values remain within these 1 - 2% when stats change (spec, buffs, debuffs), therefore it can be reasonbly assumed that the melee formula is good enough. Then there is the assumption that the old archery mechanic is using the same melee formula, which can at this time only be tested via cross bow on arms. Basically old archery is unstyled melee hits with the arrows providing a damage multiplier and to hit bonus which could be somewhat compared to styles (although not really as style damage is not exactly a static multiplier). New / current archery is literally spell casting with some spells having slash, thrust or crush damage types and bow draw animations.

Couple replies...
Can you clarify the "52 weapon spec cap" (if you have and I missed, I apologize). Does this mean having a composite bow spec >52 offers no benefit at all or just minimal?

Also in regard to original posting, because the latest HP / armor resist changes both hit bow dmg. Every shot now takes a smaller percentage of the targets total HP. This is no big deal in standard melee because both targets received a boost... you just fight a little longer. However the interrupt mechanic kicks in for archery. The function of archery is burst damage before being interrupted. Maybe a possible mitigating fix would be to make Rapid Fire un-interuptable? This would also address the whole "no point to spec bow" discussion often brought up.

We just need the "new" archery system, the class is competing in a very hybrid world with hybrid RA on all classes while using classic tools. The new archery system fixed the problems of the old system, including given MOC as a RA to prevent interruption just like a caster. But being that would up the dmg of the archetype which is one of the least played, I wouldnt hold our breathes for the fixes.

Tue 19 Nov 2019 4:43 AM by daytonchambers

Insanity84 wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Nov 2019 4:09 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Nov 2019 3:14 PM
Maybe a possible mitigating fix would be to make Rapid Fire un-interuptable? This would also address the whole "no point to spec bow" discussion often brought up.
That would be far (!) too overpowered, really. It's like giving a caster permanent MoC.
I like the direction of the idea, in a more balanced form, some kind of quick draw like casters quick cast.
I've lost interest on my scout because of that one reason, too much vulnerability through interrupts and nearly no chance to recover.
But i am not a good player anyway, so that's probably the main reason why i sucked on my scout and switched to wizard.

Steady Shot was the 45spec ability that let archers fire regardless of interrupt. It did half the damage of a regular shot like rapidfire does, but at regular shot speed.

Shooting someone for 160 every 3 seconds seems pretty damn comparable to what melee classes do, and would hardly be game-breaking OP

Tue 19 Nov 2019 8:43 AM by Insanity84

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Nov 2019 4:43 AM
Steady Shot was the 45spec ability that let archers fire regardless of interrupt. It did half the damage of a regular shot like rapidfire does, but at regular shot speed.

Shooting someone for 160 every 3 seconds seems pretty damn comparable to what melee classes do, and would hardly be game-breaking OP

There is a 50% damage difference and between uninterruptable Rapid Shot and Steady Shot.
And with Rapid Shot you can interrupt twice as fast as with Steady Shot.
So yes, i guess in the grand sheme it would be op if Rapid Shot was uninterruptable.

Tue 19 Nov 2019 10:30 AM by Glimmer

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Nov 2019 4:43 AM
Insanity84 wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Nov 2019 4:09 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Nov 2019 3:14 PM
Maybe a possible mitigating fix would be to make Rapid Fire un-interuptable? This would also address the whole "no point to spec bow" discussion often brought up.
That would be far (!) too overpowered, really. It's like giving a caster permanent MoC.
I like the direction of the idea, in a more balanced form, some kind of quick draw like casters quick cast.
I've lost interest on my scout because of that one reason, too much vulnerability through interrupts and nearly no chance to recover.
But i am not a good player anyway, so that's probably the main reason why i sucked on my scout and switched to wizard.

Steady Shot was the 45spec ability that let archers fire regardless of interrupt. It did half the damage of a regular shot like rapidfire does, but at regular shot speed.

Shooting someone for 160 every 3 seconds seems pretty damn comparable to what melee classes do, and would hardly be game-breaking OP

Sureshot is a toggle on/off ability like rapid fire. When its on you fire at normal speed and do 1/2 dmg but you cannot be interupted by ranged attacks of any form. Mele attacks will still interupt you. This also always penetrates and pops bladeturn, so it is very nice to have against casters and you get this skill at lvl 45 in bow.

Tue 19 Nov 2019 2:50 PM by Horus

Anyone know the answer to the whole "52 composite" spec question?

Is 52 composite spec the damage ceiling? I know your WS display goes up as you spec higher composite than 52 but I don't know whether the displayed info can be trusted in terms of what is really being used in the dmg formula.