Equipment durability, wear and repair

Hi!
Removing the durability loss from items was a great change (imho) since it now allows us to eternally repair items without having to get replacements. ROG armor and weapons can now be part of actual templates! Awesome!

I understand (or maybe more correctly, I *think* I understand

) the reason for the repair changes: there must be more gold sinks to prevent inflation. While there will be some groaning and complaining, I think this is a good thing for the long-term health of the economy.
Since repair costs are essentially a tax, I think it might be a nice QOL change if the repair costs were taken off-the-top instead of having to wait until you can head to a smith for a patch-up.

For example, whenever you kill a mob, the log could show something along the lines of:

You kill the Snuffleupagus!
The Snuffleupagus drops a bag of coins.
You pick up 1 gold and 36 silver.
You pay 1 silver and 36 copper for equipment maintenance.

With this change, item condition would be locked at 100% and you would never have to actually visit a smith to do any repairs, but every time you would normally gain gold from a kill or as a task reward, the tax would be assessed immediately. Since it would be %-based, it would also help prevent sticker shock when it comes time to repair 12 equipment slots worth of items!

Another benefit of a change like this would be that you don't have to worry about your equipment becoming broken in the field -- no need to break off from the action just to do repairs! (Though, given the normal rate of con loss, this would be an admittedly rare event anyway!)

Thanks for all you guys and gals do for us players!
/hugs

Wed 2 Oct 2019 4:04 PM by ExcretusMaximus

I came in thinking it was going to be yet another whining thread about changes.

Instead I found an interesting idea.

I don't know if it's able to be implemented, but it's interesting, and I'd like to see it make its way into the game if it's possible.

Wed 2 Oct 2019 5:48 PM by Boltman

Who would want to kill poor Snuffy?

Wed 2 Oct 2019 6:16 PM by chryso

Have you thought about what this will do to Big Bird?

Wed 2 Oct 2019 11:17 PM by Sepplord

why complicate it at that point? just reduce gold rewarded if you are going to take a tax anyways....

the current system doesn'T work like a tax though. It doesn't depend on income, it depends on equipment usage

you can hit keepdoors all day and ruin your quipment, getting killed by guards, etc...without earning a penny

or you can kill hundreds of players and earn a lot of gold while that happens

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:10 AM by Ibs

What about classes that constantly twist like Minst? Had a friend say after a run his items decayed well below the item bonus threshold and his total repair bill would've been 6p. He just bought these items, they were full con and after a single run he's paying that much.

What am I supposed to do? Farm for hours so I can do a couple runs? My vote is to rework the decay rate on instrument classes and or rework the cost.

With a server that is declining in pop every week you'd think they would want to bring exciting stuff to the table. Instead I'm greeted with item condition? Who cares about gold inflation and economy when there's no one else to trade with.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 4:33 AM by FiltyTrator

Personally, I think it is kind of silly to be adding artificial tedium to any game, but why now, and in a game a that's already so tedious? The player base is dying and you think the reason for that is because people don't have to sink enough gold just to play the game? Did anybody actually care that condition on jewelry was "useless" before that patch? Was that really affecting the average player's immersion? And was increasing up the price of ALL repairs 10 fold really the appropriate solution to the buggy repair cost of feather items?

Let's ignore my opinion that adding gold sinks to this dying game should be far from a priority, and focus on the real problem;

The current implementation isn't mathematically sound.

RvR is already a zero sum game for people who rely on buff potions, I can't imagine people would continue playing once they realize they are actually LOSING gold in the process. It is cheaper for nearly all casters to buy a new template than repair your old when when you get to 90%. Beyond that, by increasing ALL THREE relevant factors, that being decay rate, repair cost, and the number of repairable items equipped, the cost to actually farm more gold rises exponentially. You have to equip garbage ROG while doing PVE just to farm gold to repair your good items, because if you wear the good items they'll decay too much while they farm.

Can anybody think of another level of tedium we could possibly add? I hear devs are looking for more.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 5:20 AM by ExcretusMaximus

FiltyTrator wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 4:33 AM
It is cheaper for nearly all casters to buy a new template than repair your old when when you get to 90%.

LOL - No, it isn't.

If you're going to base your complaint on "mathematically unsound" principles, don't engage in blatant hyperbole in your foundational argument.

Aside from that, if potions make your RvR time a "zero sum game," you're doing something, somewhere, very wrong. If you buy your potions at a ridiculous price like 800g, you're looking at roughly 53 solo kills to 400 full group kills over a period of at most 16.6 hours of play time (and you're not always going to be using potions in a full group) to recoup your cost on kills alone. Once you factor in things like task completion (50g a pop) and participation rewards, you're looking at far more money made in the amount of time you've got on a single Draught, even if you only get half value out of the timers every single time you use it.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 5:26 AM by FiltyTrator

It's not hyperbole, it just sounds like it because of the ridiculous reality of these repair bills. It costs nearly 500g to repair an accessory from 90% and you have 8 accessory slots. That's 4 plat. Tell me again how it is not cheaper to just buy new ROG at 200g a piece and a suit of 99q cloth? I temped my last caster for like 2.5p, if that.

Edit: For sustaining rvr, your math is kind of pointless if you only count the buff pot. You've got regen, your instant healings, power, Endo all on a short cooldown. Then you've got legion charges at 10g each. Stealth lores, etc. Some people are losing money on rvr already. Most are making some trivial amount of gold. People with group buffs are making a slightly less trivial amount. Definitely not enough to spend 4p every couple days on top of the costs that are already present.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 7:04 AM by romulus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Oct 2019 11:17 PM
why complicate it at that point? just reduce gold rewarded if you are going to take a tax anyways....

It's about transparency. If the devs reduced gold output by 25% and their justification was that they wanted to cool down the economies, it would be met by universal outrage, but just like when they reduced the salvage rates. But if they add in a tax where they show where the gold is going (i.e 10% goes to guild, 15% goes to upkeep), it becomes a lot more palatable. Just like the itemized bill you get from your telco: sure no one likes paying all those taxes and surcharges, but you get less outraged when you see where those bits are going.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Oct 2019 11:17 PM
the current system doesn'T work like a tax though. It doesn't depend on income, it depends on equipment usage

you can hit keepdoors all day and ruin your quipment, getting killed by guards, etc...without earning a penny

or you can kill hundreds of players and earn a lot of gold while that happens

Not true. Hitting keep doors all day will get your RvR participation credit, which gets you task completions, which gets you gold. Hence, a tax is still a good analogy.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 7:45 AM by Lipsi

Besides the price being a bit high - from the point of view of someone new to server, ie little guild/friend support, no big treasury, lots of upcoming expenses for getting temped etc, i understand the idea that gold sink to cool down economy is necessary when players already got all the stuff.

However :
- Money is a scarce ressource for new players - while encouraging to go PVE for farming gold, which anyway is almost the same as go PVE for xping, this could be used to promote less visited areas with higher gold bonuses or a system similar to the feather diminishing return rate / +500% bonus that was discussed by the team, There need to be a way to make good money, without being forced into skald+shaman moderna or heal+sm*4 poc huscarls if i take the example of Mid...

- Was it a technical limitation that forced to remove the ability to repair from Legendary WC ? Crafting is also a gold sink, could leave this ability since some will prefer it than being forced to teleport to a blacksmith, while adding the fee to the action rather than having it for free.

- The idea above of putting that in the form of a revenue tax sounds good at first, but after 2nd thought isn't so much. MMO economy problems lies more in capital and assets accumulated by elder players, which a tax on revenue cannot help with some players sitting on almost limitless treasuries. The best answer to this is usually to offer something in game that can be purchased that wasn't before, rather than having to pay for something that was free, and targeted more to reputation of the player rather than survivability of the character.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 8:58 AM by romulus

Hi Lipsi! Thanks for the reply and the insights.

Let me comment on some of your thoughts.

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 7:45 AM
Besides the price being a bit high - from the point of view of someone new to server, ie little guild/friend support, no big treasury, lots of upcoming expenses for getting temped etc, i understand the idea that gold sink to cool down economy is necessary when players already got all the stuff.

I'm also concerned about the effect that taxes and repair have on new players. I think it's true that a tax would hit new players the hardest compared to the existing repair mechanic. New players don't usually hang onto gear long enough for it to wear out. They will usually out-level a piece of gear and replace it with a new dropped piece first, so any reduction in gold earned would be regressive. I'm not sure how you make allowances for that. You could do something like make it so that characters that are under 50 and not /xp off are exempt from the tax, but that starts to get complicated and open to possible exploitation. Having the amount of tax scale with character level might be another way to address it. I'm not sure.

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 7:45 AM
- Money is a scarce ressource for new players - while encouraging to go PVE for farming gold, which anyway is almost the same as go PVE for xping, this could be used to promote less visited areas with higher gold bonuses or a system similar to the feather diminishing return rate / +500% bonus that was discussed by the team, There need to be a way to make good money, without being forced into skald+shaman moderna or heal+sm*4 poc huscarls if i take the example of Mid...

I think they could do more to encourage visiting lesser-explored areas of the world, and having different gold drop rates is one way they could do it. This is a good point, but also one that I feel is orthogonal to the discussion of repair.

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 7:45 AM
- Was it a technical limitation that forced to remove the ability to repair from Legendary WC ? Crafting is also a gold sink, could leave this ability since some will prefer it than being forced to teleport to a blacksmith, while adding the fee to the action rather than having it for free.

I did touch on this point tangentially in my suggestion that field repairs are currently impossible given that only blacksmiths can perform repairs now. I suspect that the reason for why this was removed was one of expediency. Implementation and testing for allowing player-crafters to perform repairs while still charging the current repair fees would have taken time and effort that would be better spent elsewhere. That is purely my guess, though.

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 7:45 AM
- The idea above of putting that in the form of a revenue tax sounds good at first, but after 2nd thought isn't so much. MMO economy problems lies more in capital and assets accumulated by elder players, which a tax on revenue cannot help with some players sitting on almost limitless treasuries. The best answer to this is usually to offer something in game that can be purchased that wasn't before, rather than having to pay for something that was free, and targeted more to reputation of the player rather than survivability of the character.

I like this thought and some of the possibilities that it hints at. To draw an example from WoW, they could add an "Albion/Midgard/Hibernian Resource Officer" where they could donate items/gold/feathers for the war effort to then gain reputation, titles, etc. I think this idea probably warrants its own suggestion thread since it is getting a little beyond the suggestion of how to address wear and repair specifically.

I guess in my thinking, having a pre-tax system to handle repairs is easier to swallow than to give full gold drop amounts, only to require the player turn around and give half of it back in repairs. After all, which is more painful: spend an hour farming for 1p, then visit the smith and have a 500g repair bill, or spend an hour farming for 500g? The same result, only you feel like you were robbed in the first scenario, and in the second you are annoyed and feel like the gold-drop rate should be upped.

The QOL aspect lies in never having to return to a smith to repair your equipment since it will always be at peak condition.

/hugs

Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:27 AM by

gruenesschaf

The main problem is that there are only very few gold sinks in the game and before this change one of them, repairing equipment, was completely a non issue. This was mainly due to accessories not decaying and hence at least half the cost not being there but also it being based on the sell price and in case of feather items the price being about 2 gold instead of the ~700 gold a chain torso would be. Further even if repair had the "correct" values, you'd have the main problem that it still isn't an effective gold sink as it's too slow / cheap when compared with the gold gain due to the tasks and other sources.

Aside from repair we have these gold sinks:
- healer: only applies to pve
- rent: optional, doesn't scale with activity and hence hits those with less playtime the hardest but provides different options and in general isn't really an issue
- buff potions / charges: optional, scales nicely with playtime but hits solo / small man players the most while not being too required (or at least not as many things) in groups / zergs
- siege weapons: optional / only comparatively few need them

The repair mechanic was chosen mainly for these reasons:
1) It scales with usage and hence affects every play style equally and if you only have an hour every evening you will see only a small decay compared to someone playing 8 hour sessions
2) It already is a mechanic in the game but until this change it basically just existed while not really having any meaningful effect

As for why we disabled player made repair, an option on the table was to require some material (working similar to wood value when it comes to door repair) but in this step it was disabled to find the proper rate / cost. The very best case would be if the average player goes out with +- 0 if they only do rvr for an evening.

And ofc reducing the money gained, e. g. via some tax, would in the end have pretty much the same effect aside from the repair mechanic still just being useless and complaints about nerfing money while also affecting those that are leveling up (repairing can pretty much be ignored entirely until max level due to negative effects now only starting below 90%).

A potential QoL feature might be that the smith will give the option to repair all items at once for extra sticker shock effect :p

Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:59 AM by Gorgoroth

I am happy with a Gold Sink, but you really should think about classes that constantly swap gear, like a Minstrel for example. I repaired my gear yesterday and the bill was ridiculous.

I am not saying that it should be free, but i would really ask for tweaking the numbers a bit.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:05 AM by

gruenesschaf

Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:59 AM
I am happy with a Gold Sink, but you really should think about classes that constantly swap gear, like a Minstrel for example. I repaired my gear yesterday and the bill was ridiculous.

I am not saying that it should be free, but i would really ask for tweaking the numbers a bit.

Next update will exclude the charm spell from causing condition decay.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:07 AM by FiltyTrator

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:27 AM
And ofc reducing the money gained, e. g. via some tax, would in the end have pretty much the same effect aside from the repair mechanic still just being useless and complaints about nerfing money while also affecting those that are leveling up (repairing can pretty much be ignored entirely until max level due to negative effects now only starting below 90%).

It's actually nowhere close to the same thing. I ran around on my minstrel for a coupe hours and killed a handful players. I earned about 200g and 50+ goes to potions. I also have a 6 plat repair bill. With a 100% tax I would only be out 50 gold. With your new system, I'm out 5 plat.

0/10 would not recommend

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:07 AM by Ibs

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:27 AM
The repair mechanic was chosen mainly for these reasons:
1) It scales with usage and hence affects every play style equally and if you only have an hour every evening you will see only a small decay compared to someone playing 8 hour sessions
...

This does not effect everyone equally, this hurts my minst to the point where I'm not logging in until this is addressed.
I'm not paying 6p every run to repair. twisting charm, speed and ablative is wrecking every item piece quickly with an absurd fee for each item. Why the hell are you guys pushing gold sink and economy so hard? Have a good one guys, good luck.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:11 AM by gotwqqd

This is sort of like the 1%

It means nothing or very little to the people you are trying to extract the hoard of money from
But if the costs are what people are saying it sounds like it can severely harm the have nots

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:21 AM by Ibs

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:05 AM
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:59 AM
I am happy with a Gold Sink, but you really should think about classes that constantly swap gear, like a Minstrel for example. I repaired my gear yesterday and the bill was ridiculous.

I am not saying that it should be free, but i would really ask for tweaking the numbers a bit.

Next update will exclude the charm spell from causing condition decay.

What about speed and ablative?

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:24 AM by FiltyTrator

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:05 AM
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:59 AM
Next update will exclude the charm spell from causing condition decay.

Are you going to repair the minstrel gear that's already decayed to 70% over the course of a single run? Seems like some pretty steep and unfair collateral damage caused by poor implementation. Coupled with the fact that RvR is now a zero sum game *by design,* I think most of my friends will quit playing.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:31 AM by gotwqqd

FiltyTrator wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:24 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:05 AM
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:59 AM
Next update will exclude the charm spell from causing condition decay.

Are you going to repair the minstrel gear that's already decayed to 70% over the course of a single run? Seems like some pretty steep and unfair collateral damage caused by poor implementation. Coupled with the fact that RvR is now a zero sum game *by design,* I think most of my friends will quit playing.
Zero sum game?
More millennials

Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:45 AM by Ibs

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:31 AM
FiltyTrator wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:24 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:05 AM
Are you going to repair the minstrel gear that's already decayed to 70% over the course of a single run? Seems like some pretty steep and unfair collateral damage caused by poor implementation. Coupled with the fact that RvR is now a zero sum game *by design,* I think most of my friends will quit playing.
Zero sum game?
More millennials

I'll never understand it... The last two people on the server will have a conversation something like this

Person 1: "why is this server so harsh even after they saw everyone leave because of the rules imposed?"
Person 2: "qq moar f**"
Person 1 has left the game

Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:19 AM by watbrif

I really don't understand

a) the mentality, that some changes (that might be controversial, but really don't "break" the in-game experience in anyway) are somehow perceived as personal insults that could make you stop playing the game. DAoC is a really, really old game with many quirks already, and I for once am quite happy that Phoenix has given me the chance to come back to it without having to pay (yes I'm cheap). Is it really that hard chance to enjoy this game without taking it that seriously?

b) the "doomsday" mentality that the server is about to die next week (because it isn't, at least in EU harhar). IT ALSO DOESN'T HELP TO RECRUIT NEW OR RETURNING PLAYERS. The forums are the first thing that new/returning player see and I, for instance, was almost put off by all the "the-people-are-abandoning-the-server-in-masses" messages. I actually had to find out myself in-game that this isn't really the case.

(Btw. thanks GM/Dev team for the effort you're putting into this project).

Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:34 AM by Gorgoroth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 10:05 AM
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 9:59 AM
I am happy with a Gold Sink, but you really should think about classes that constantly swap gear, like a Minstrel for example. I repaired my gear yesterday and the bill was ridiculous.

I am not saying that it should be free, but i would really ask for tweaking the numbers a bit.

Next update will exclude the charm spell from causing condition decay.

Cool! Im happy you listen to feedback.
But I honestly think its way to harsh on Minstrels in Particular. We use ablatives all the time and when I run with my grp, I play Mana Song combined with Speed song and put in Ablative as well. On top of that I also charm a pet, after which I need to (again) play a Song.

Thats what a Minstrel does. Also in Combat I need to hit a few times, with ablative, then charm pet and then ablative again, every 4 or so seconds.

This makes the Minst the gold sink of this server for sure, in the top 3 at least for sure, just for being played and being supportive out of combat.
The same rule with the Gear Decay can not be the same as for a Wizard, as the amout of "casts" is vastly different for those classes.

This creates imbalance and honestly, ruins the class for me. I am not a platinum whale here and the bill yesterday shocked me. I usually not whine and complain, but this needs to be said. I kindly ask you to looking at classes individually.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:36 AM by FiltyTrator

watbrif wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:19 AM
I really don't understand

that might be controversial, but really don't "break" the in-game experience in anyway

I'm sorry but speed classes having to spend 6 plat just to run around for an hour is breaking the in game experience in a major way. If you are unable to see that you are blind, but I'm going to assume you're just here to brown nose. Nobody can honestly think that rate of decay is a good idea, if it weren't obviously horrible then the devs wouldn't be changing it after just one day.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:09 PM by watbrif

FiltyTrator wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:36 AM
watbrif wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:19 AM
I really don't understand

that might be controversial, but really don't "break" the in-game experience in anyway

I'm sorry but speed classes having to spend 6 plat just to run around for an hour is breaking the in game experience in a major way. If you are unable to see that you are blind, but I'm going to assume you're just here to brown nose. Nobody can honestly think that rate of decay is a good idea, if it weren't obviously horrible then the devs wouldn't be changing it after just one day.

Since I have no relationship whatsoever to the devs/GMs I'm not sure if my comment counts as "brown nosing"... and if this hurts speed classes that much and in a such an obvious fashion, I assume it will be addressed.

Edit: Again, there must be a way of complaining about such issues without resorting to fire and brimstone. Because it doesn't help.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:16 PM by Vindicator

This is a meaningless, negative and silly introduction in my opinion.

To those they want to tax, it will mean nothing really. They already farm loads of feathers. Maybe the price of feathers goes up then?

Those it hurts the most are players who only want to RvR, have tempted their charcaters and log in to play few hours. After a few runs they will have to drop some serious gold. Eventually they will have to go PvE to get gold to repair the gear. Why would you force people back into PvE? Now I'm saying this as someone who doesn't mind Abit of PvE, I have crafters and a stealther to feed. It won't bother me but I can see it negatively affecting many people without any desired affect. I hope it is reviewed after awhile to see if it is working, although that could be too late.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:24 PM by Keelia

I’m so glad they listened to the population. So many people were asking for a good sink that forced us to play PvE. Knocked it out of the park guys, really A++ on this one. You should look into helping the 8v8 community by adding some sort of bonus to the keep takers so when they roll a 8 man they get like a bonus 5k RPs, or just give people with keep taking titles extra RP for displaying the title, that should do it.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:36 PM by

gruenesschaf

FiltyTrator wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 11:36 AM
I'm sorry but speed classes having to spend 6 plat just to run around for an hour is breaking the in game experience in a major way. If you are unable to see that you are blind, but I'm going to assume you're just here to brown nose. Nobody can honestly think that rate of decay is a good idea, if it weren't obviously horrible then the devs wouldn't be changing it after just one day.

It was pretty much a minstrel only issue primarily affecting those that macro the charm and speed and to a much lesser but still too high extend those doing it manually.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:48 PM by

gruenesschaf

Vindicator wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:16 PM
Those it hurts the most are players who only want to RvR, have tempted their charcaters and log in to play few hours. After a few runs they will have to drop some serious gold.

Given that the personal tasks (kill, guards etc.) have increasing requirements and hence make short play time more valuable, those mentioned are the very last group that will have to even think about having to do pve. The only group where the repair bills might make them incur a net loss are solos that use all available charges. We're monitoring the income and expenses for rvr players and If other play styles regularly incur a net loss, the rate will be adjusted a bit.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:51 PM by romulus

Goodness!
This has been a spirited topic! Much more than I originally thought it would be. Thanks, everyone who has been contributing!
And especially, thanks Gruenesschaf for adding your perspective and explanations. It really helps us understand the decisions and how we got where we are today.

Hopefully, this isn't too big of a derail, but I wanted to make a few more comments about the idea of a pre-tax as a solution to some of the current repair system criticisms, as well as address one or two of Gruenesschaf's points.

The repair mechanic was chosen mainly for these reasons:
1) It scales with usage and hence affects every play style equally and if you only have an hour every evening you will see only a small decay compared to someone playing 8 hour sessions

I agree with this point mostly.
While it is true that someone who plays longer will see more decay, I don't feel that the current decay system is fair.
Take as an example a tank and a caster in the same farming party. The tank, who is on the front-line bashing away at (and being bashed by) enemies, is going to see a much higher rate of decay across more of her equipment than the caster who is lurking in the back of the group casting spells. Under normal conditions, the only piece of equipment that the caster will suffer decay on is her staff, since her armor and accessories aren't being hit. The tank, in contrast, is suffering wear on her weapons, shields, armor, and accessories which are weathering repeated blows. Of these two, the tank is going to be facing a crippling repair bill at the end of the night, while the caster just needs a new coat of wax on her staff.

A fairer system would be one that falls on all playstyles equally, which is what a tax-based system does.

Another point to consider is that the best farming classes in the game are pet classes (BDs, Cabalists, Animists, Necros -- to an extent). Pets do not transfer decay to their owners (necros as a possible exception, I don't know if that is implemented on Phoenix as it was on Live), so the ones who are making the most gold from farming are the very ones who are paying the least amount in repair costs.
That doesn't seem fair, does it?

2) It already is a mechanic in the game but until this change it basically just existed while not really having any meaningful effect

Is the repair mechanic important enough that keeping it in the game is paramount? What does it add to the game? Is it a fundamental mechanic, or is it just a ritual with a gold-sink? Removing the ritual (which no one likes or cares about), and we are left only with the gold-sink. Is there a better way to express the gold-sink? I think there is. You haven't been shy about discarding or changing gratuitous legacy systems or mechanics. There are many QOL improvements here that exist to remove a lot of the droll, repetitive, or boring aspects of play.

Picking up loot after killing a mob is an existing mechanic, but its annoying so you gave us autoloot.
Crafting can be so boring and sleep-inducing, so you gave us craftqueue.
Getting from place-to-place on a horse takes hours, so you gave us porters.
/switch, /moveitem, etc. pp.

These are all QOL improvements that we love!

Anything that takes the skullduggery out of playing is a good thing, and by contrast, anything that adds meaningless ritual and requirement to play the game is a bad thing. Having to visit a smith to do repairs is one such legacy system: It might work, but it only serves as an impediment to playing the game. This is why I think a pre-tax for maintenance and repair serves the dual purpose of reducing the amount of gold that comes into the system in a fair manner, as well as removing a ritual that no one really likes.

And ofc reducing the money gained, e. g. via some tax, would in the end have pretty much the same effect aside from the repair mechanic still just being useless and complaints about nerfing money while also affecting those that are leveling up (repairing can pretty much be ignored entirely until max level due to negative effects now only starting below 90%).

Sepplord made this point earlier as well. To this point that a pre-tax is no different than a reduction in gold-drop rate: I agree. Functionally there is no difference: the end result is less gold enters the system. There is, however, a perceived difference. By showing the repair message at the time of award, you are explaining to the player why their gold reward is lower. That sort of feedback goes a long way to assuage frustration, as well as remind the player that they are sacrificing a little gold for a lot of QOL (no more repairs!) There even exists a mechanic today for handling taxes (guild taxes), so it isn't really creating a new mechanic to add an equipment maintenance tax.

W.r.t. those folks that are leveling up, perhaps they could have a scaled tax rate to ease the burden of making money as they level. Full tax wouldn't be assessed until they were 50 or went /xp off. This is, admittedly, the part of my suggestion that needs some more definition.

A potential QoL feature might be that the smith will give the option to repair all items at once for extra sticker shock effect :p

I really like this suggestion. I even mentioned it on our guild discord server as something that WOW did that I wished we had here on Phoenix. It's just so nice to be able to click one button (or link) and have everything be repaired. I still think it would be better if we just never had to repair at all, but this is would be a very welcome improvement!

With a pre-tax system, the gold earners are the ones that pay the most in taxes. If you are out RvRing all the time, you are only going to be taxed on your actual guard kills and task rewards, while farmers are going to be taxed on their farming and task kills. The more gold you make, the more taxes you will pay. No one will have to run to the smith or suffer the embarrassment of forgetting to repair before heading out for a night of RvR (or farming).

That seems fair to me.

Thanks again so much for reading and for providing such a great server to play on!

edit: These arguments always sound so much better in my head than when I write them down! Some minor tweaks and clarifications to my points and some re-writes, sorry!

/hugs

Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:54 PM by FiltyTrator

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:36 PM
It was pretty much a minstrel only issue primarily affecting those that macro the charm and speed and to a much lesser but still too high extend those doing it manually.

So will all players have their ROG condition reset to 100, to avoid punishing the players for this oversight? I doubt the average minstrel has 3-7 plat lying around to pay their repair bill for a couple hours of playtime. I am in a position where I can't play my minstrel again until a make a new character on Alb to farm the gold for a new template, just because I charmed a pet and ran around for a bit.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 2:40 PM by gotwqqd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:48 PM
Vindicator wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 12:16 PM
Those it hurts the most are players who only want to RvR, have tempted their charcaters and log in to play few hours. After a few runs they will have to drop some serious gold.
Given that the personal tasks (kill, guards etc.) have increasing requirements and hence make short play time more valuable, those mentioned are the very last group that will have to even think about having to do pve. The only group where the repair bills might make them incur a net loss are solos that use all available charges. We're monitoring the income and expenses for rvr players and If other play styles regularly incur a net loss, the rate will be adjusted a bit.

Sort of backwards
If you have ability to monitor the numbers why not start with a small cost increase and boost it up till you see fit

This way if the cost is extremely high you may decimate some gold banks and hurt the player and prompt leaving

Thu 3 Oct 2019 6:46 PM by Gorgoroth

The problem is, a portion of the population on this server has TONS of wealth.

The solution to that however is NOT to drain gold from everyone equally.

How this is not obvious i find hard to understand...

Thu 3 Oct 2019 7:45 PM by Frigzy

Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 6:46 PM
The problem is, a portion of the population on this server has TONS of wealth.

The solution to that however is NOT to drain gold from everyone equally.

How this is not obvious i find hard to understand...

Even if they have TONS of wealth, who the hell cares?

Feather prices in Hib for instance have always been high even since launch. Is Hib more inflated than other realms since launch? Should Hib perhaps only be affected by the repair changes?

Nobody gives a damn about paying 1p or 1p500g for a RoG. If you need it, you either farm the money or look for a RoG yourself. If you have the funds, 500g isn't making the difference.

Those who actually go "HEHEHE I CAN NOW CHARGE PREMIUM FOR THE ITEMS I SOLD CHEAPLY AT THE START OF THE SERVER" are the types of people who are already destroying the real world making real money anyway.

Most people just want to play the game and not feel pushed or cheated by a random system.

Thu 3 Oct 2019 8:28 PM by chryso

It is very hard to try and make money as you level up as a new player. Can we have all of this extra condition loss not in effect for lowbies?

Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:28 AM by Sepplord

chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 8:28 PM
It is very hard to try and make money as you level up as a new player. Can we have all of this extra condition loss not in effect for lowbies?

you really don't need to repair gear during levelling...

Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:27 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:28 AM
you really don't need to repair gear during levelling...

I've never hit 50 with less than 4 platinum made on any new character. What are you doing to spend so much of the money you're making while leveling?

EDIT: Sorry, quoted the wrong post, this is directed at the post by Chryso --

chryso wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Oct 2019 8:28 PM
It is very hard to try and make money as you level up as a new player. Can we have all of this extra condition loss not in effect for lowbies?

Fri 4 Oct 2019 5:54 AM by Lillebror

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:27 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Oct 2019 1:28 AM
you really don't need to repair gear during levelling...

I've never hit 50 with less than 4 platinum made on any new character. What are you doing to spend so much of the money you're making while leveling?

I used most of my moeny on exp items while leveling, i dinged 50 on druid with 2p, all the rogs i needed for template a guildmate fixed or i got while leveling.
A friend of him fixed SC (he charged the wooping 200g, said it was cost. trow him 1p and had to make a deal taking 500g back.
Not all are greedy...

Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:33 AM by Lipsi

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:27 AM
I've never hit 50 with less than 4 platinum made on any new character. What are you doing to spend so much of the money you're making while leveling?

The problem isn't with leveling a new character, the problem is for new players to server =) Money being accountwide, once you sit on 100s P, you don't care all these petty maintenance costs.

But as a new player, even if you can avoid repairing lvl 40- items, you are going to spend money :
- maintain the lvl 50-51 items (yes, new player isnt just leveling but once hit lvl 50 that doesn't bring you all for free instantly

)
- to buy ROGs for a basic template - 5P
- to buy more serious gear - 30P
- for POTIONS (new player has less help, guildmates, friends, ends up playing a lot more as a solo even for xping)
- you eventually need so much cash that buying house + consignment will help - but it is an investment too
- same goes for crafting, you could try it into alch or SCer to coin in some silvers or even a few gold coins with your margins...

So 4P isn't so much, it won't even buy you an SI epic vest. You'd need about 40-50P to start a 1st character on server comfortably.
While a well established player could hope to farm those 50P in a day or so, it can take several weeks for the new player on the server.

Fri 4 Oct 2019 9:15 AM by kiectred

Lipsi wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Oct 2019 7:33 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Oct 2019 3:27 AM
I've never hit 50 with less than 4 platinum made on any new character. What are you doing to spend so much of the money you're making while leveling?

The problem isn't with leveling a new character, the problem is for new players to server =) Money being accountwide, once you sit on 100s P, you don't care all these petty maintenance costs.

But as a new player, even if you can avoid repairing lvl 40- items, you are going to spend money :
- maintain the lvl 50-51 items (yes, new player isnt just leveling but once hit lvl 50 that doesn't bring you all for free instantly )
- to buy ROGs for a basic template - 5P
- to buy more serious gear - 30P
- for POTIONS (new player has less help, guildmates, friends, ends up playing a lot more as a solo even for xping)
- you eventually need so much cash that buying house + consignment will help - but it is an investment too
- same goes for crafting, you could try it into alch or SCer to coin in some silvers or even a few gold coins with your margins...

So 4P isn't so much, it won't even buy you an SI epic vest. You'd need about 40-50P to start a 1st character on server comfortably.
While a well established player could hope to farm those 50P in a day or so, it can take several weeks for the new player on the server.

I get your sentiment but all your numbers are so dramatically exaggerated it's hard to take seriously. 5p for RoGs and then ANOTHER 30p for other stuff? Absolutely not. Even your comment about an established player farming 50p in a day or so is crazy.

New players might be affected more but never once have I seen a totally new player struggle to make friends, get into a welcoming guild, and get stuff for cheaper/free. Everyone wants to help them. I agree that you can't base the game economy on this as it won't always be true, but I think worries about new players are as exaggerated as the worries about money/repairing.

Fri 4 Oct 2019 10:01 AM by Lipsi

kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Oct 2019 9:15 AM
I get your sentiment but all your numbers are so dramatically exaggerated it's hard to take seriously. 5p for RoGs and then ANOTHER 30p for other stuff? Absolutely not. Even your comment about an established player farming 50p in a day or so is crazy.

New players might be affected more but never once have I seen a totally new player struggle to make friends, get into a welcoming guild, and get stuff for cheaper/free. Everyone wants to help them. I agree that you can't base the game economy on this as it won't always be true, but I think worries about new players are as exaggerated as the worries about money/repairing.

I agree it sounds a bit exagerated but :
- basic template = 1p for armor 99%, 1P for SCer 5 pieces, 1P for alch standard procs (not epic) for 5 pieces, 1P for 8 jewelry, leaves 1P for weapons if you are melee
- serious gear = i could do the maths but the announces in /trade with people offering 40P (30-50P) for a temp when they have the money are self explanatory. MP weapons with LT and the right speed can skyrocket. Epic reactive procs are not cheap, feather items will probably be bought with coins rather than feathers (1)
- people doing 3 HOH/DS runs in an evening selling for about 20P, or other topics about farming 4-5P an hour on animist/shaman etc, hints that 50P in a day is achievable (of course, that means hard dedication farming and a long day). But i have no clue indeed to what extent it is realistic, since i didn't participate in that, just hints and maths.
- (1) feathergroups in old SI are very rare, in a month or so, i've been in 2, both of which i had to setup. Raids are very rare, have seen 2 TG and 1 dragon raid in the course of a month, overall, your sentiment that new players can be provided with all the needed help and cheap/free gear seems to me as far as reality, as my sentiment seems exagerated to you. It is probably somewhere in between, but the player base from what i understand has been decreasing, and new players now can struggle. At least i do. May be this is a different experience based on which realm you are in, i moved from mid where i struggled for a month to hib where i feel more support from the community - may be due to lower population, and more pressure for people to help each other.

However this is a bit off topic, but the high maintenance cost for gear durability affects new players the stronger, and my point is that as a new player, the leveling part is not where you will spend most money, but once you hit 50, and once you hit 50 you will fully pay for those very high maintenance costs.

Fri 4 Oct 2019 10:33 AM by FiltyTrator

After playing on non-song classes, I'd say this doesn't significantly increase the cost to rvr at all. Condition still decays relatively slowly on both jewelry and equipment, and gear still costs the same to repair aside from feather items. I don't predict this will have much of an impact going forward, aside from people completely replacing their cheap caster templates at 90% condition, as the price to repair jewelry is prohibitively expensive for lvl 51 in the 50-55 utility range, and is far more than the price of cloth armor. It's simply just cheaper to replace them, especially if you somehow let them get *below* 90%. Though the time it takes to redo a template might outweigh the extra expense so this effect could be muted.

That said, anybody who played minstrel the other day can tell you how expensive these bills can get if you let your items decay below 90%. I hope the GM's will be kind enough to revert their jewelry to 100% condition to make up for the first day's implementation, rather than forcing them to retemp. The repair costs are probably far beyond the average player's price range, I am not exaggerating when I say my repair bill is over 6 plat after one run.

Fri 4 Oct 2019 2:19 PM by romulus

Hi!

First, thank you devs for adding the repair-all feature to the smiths! Even though it only saves a handful of clicks, this is the definition of a QOL change and it is very much appreciated! And Gruens was absolutely right: there is quite a sticker shock when you have to repair your full load-out!

While I understand and can appreciate the reasons for updating and expanding the wear and repair mechanic, I still feel that this is the wrong solution and that it unfairly affects the have-nots rather than the haves. As someone who mostly farms and does PvE stuff, I'm prolly more in the latter camp than the former, so I'm not as impacted as, say, the folks that only play here a few nights a week and just want to RvR.

Anecdotally, I was on one of my alts (28 Theurg) this morning in DF killing Plateds. She has some junk level 50 trinkets on her. After an hour or so I went to the smith for repairs: 590g. After vendoring the ROG loot, I was still well-south of 500g spent for my day.

I'm sure folks will say, "Your fault! You were using level 50 trinkets on a level 28 toon!" Fair enough. Bonuses from over-leveled equipment is clamped anyway, so until the wear changes, it made perfect sense to equip whatever was convenient. Who hasn't rolled an alt and given them some hand-me-downs? After this change, life is going to be expensive for alts, twinks, and even (and especially!) new level 50s.

Anyway, as I said, they were junk items so I'll just let her use them until they burn out, but it just stinks (to me) that the best solution that could be implemented to address the problem of the overheated economies was to expand and intensify such a universally despised mechanism, and one that does such a poor job (imo) of addressing the real problem.

Thanks for reading and thanks for all you guys and gals on the staff do for us players! We love you! (even if we hate repairs!)

/hugs

Fri 4 Oct 2019 5:45 PM by jackatom74

With no loss of durability and items that never go away, what will the market explorer look like in the future. Will 80 utility rog get cheaper overtime?

Sun 6 Oct 2019 2:16 PM by Siouxsie

I have a better suggestion:
Undo this entire equipment durability, wear and repair nonsense. Make it so durability is 100% on all items and never decreases. Allow players to repair items again when they hit 90%
Only affect armor and weapons.

The last thing we need is a gold sink since May 10th, when salvage loot was nerfed.
I feel sorry for anyone starting off at level 1 with no guild or prior characters on the server for support.

Mon 7 Oct 2019 6:48 AM by Gorgoroth

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 6 Oct 2019 2:16 PM
I feel sorry for anyone starting off at level 1 with no guild or prior characters on the server for support.

Absolutely my sentiment as well. If inflation is an issue and DOES affect the Market prices (which it doesn't so far at all, as purchases in the market are made with those sellers, which offer the best (meaning lowest) prices).

The solution to this is NOT to reduce the pool of gold for everyone equally, but offer a sink for gold who have the most resources available. Give those players really cool skins to purchase for ridiculously high Plat prices so that they can show off their wealth without taxing the whole population equally.

I dont understand why this concept is not obvious to everyone who spend a second of thought on this "issue".