Work to help players trust the source

First off, thank you for putting this server out there. I had a lot fun for almost four months, played too long each day and yet it felt like not long enough.

Now for the suggestion.

There are many gripes I have thought about over these four months, but each boils down to the damage I was seeing. While my troubles were different in many cases than the one post about this that I did make, the common feeling was that something was amiss. It left me feeling as though the source could not be trusted; whether that source was the code or the people coding. Hence, my only suggestion is to do your best to make information and examples available for people to compare with their own experiences, so that they might trust the source.

The latest fight that made me /appeal, although I do not believe that the player did anything wrong, was a ranger versus my hunter, in which my blue pet did more damage per hit than my 1h 3.5 spd sword, which did less than half the mainhand damage the ranger was doing. This was a norse hunter with points in strength versus a celt ranger. I know math pretty well. I know 10% != 100%. I know 20% != 100%. I know 50% != 100%. Something is not right. It doesn't add up.

Whatever the cause for concern, especially when it is common, like damage concerns for a pvp mmorpg, there should be easily found information available to represent what players should expect. This is not available for phoenix server. Therefore, I, as a player, am left feeling distrustful of the source.

Good luck with your future projects! Great job!

Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:07 PM by

gruenesschaf

This is probably the stupidest thing I've heard in a long while.

Are we frequently linking how melee damage is calculated? Yes
Are we actually showing the result of this calculation, aka the damage modifier, on every single melee hit? Yes
Are we actually showing the reduction due to resists even in cases where they would normally not be shown? Yes
Are we actually showing crits and normal hits separately even for enemy attacks? Yes

To summarize: You have the formula we're using, you have the result of that formula, you have your own stats, you can be sure that that was not just a crit because you could see it, you can be sure that this was not just a high damage variation hit because there is none.

With all that you can calculate how much AF the other person must have had in case you hit them or what weapon stats they must have had in case they hit you, I really don't understand wtf you are talking about regarding trusting the source, you literally have all the information right there.

Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:09 PM by gotwqqd

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:07 PM
This is probably the stupidest thing I've heard in a long while.

Are we frequently linking how melee damage is calculated? Yes
Are we actually showing the result of this calculation, aka the damage modifier, on every single melee hit? Yes
Are we actually showing the reduction due to resists even in cases where they would normally not be shown? Yes
Are we actually showing crits and normal hits separately even for enemy attacks? Yes

To summarize: You have the formula we're using, you have the result of that formula, you have your own stats, you can be sure that that was not just a crit because you could see it, you can be sure that this was not just a high damage variation hit because there is none.

With all that you can calculate how much AF the other person must have had in case you hit them or what weapon stats they must have had in case they hit you, I really don't understand wtf you are talking about regarding trusting the source, you literally have all the information right there.

While I agree...as a dev(green name?) you shouldn’t even respond to such messages. Particularly in such a manner.

Sat 24 Aug 2019 5:46 PM by Sepplord

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:09 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 3:07 PM
This is probably the stupidest thing I've heard in a long while.

Are we frequently linking how melee damage is calculated? Yes
Are we actually showing the result of this calculation, aka the damage modifier, on every single melee hit? Yes
Are we actually showing the reduction due to resists even in cases where they would normally not be shown? Yes
Are we actually showing crits and normal hits separately even for enemy attacks? Yes

To summarize: You have the formula we're using, you have the result of that formula, you have your own stats, you can be sure that that was not just a crit because you could see it, you can be sure that this was not just a high damage variation hit because there is none.

With all that you can calculate how much AF the other person must have had in case you hit them or what weapon stats they must have had in case they hit you, I really don't understand wtf you are talking about regarding trusting the source, you literally have all the information right there.

While I agree...as a dev(green name?) you shouldn’t even respond to such messages. Particularly in such a manner.

i completely disagree.
I understand that in for-profit businesses it is unwanted just to be on the safe side and avoiding shitstorms at all costs, no matter how wrong the noisemakers are. Especially in corporate america. Someone being corrected and called out by the officials is a fresh breeze from time to time. The tone is understandable considering the bullshit they are dealing with all day long. They aren't paid Devs, they are people with busy lives doing this in their leisure time. Venting from time to time is perfectly fine
And gruenes didn't even directly insult OP, he insulted the content of the post. A difference that many don't notice and often see as personal attack instead of thinking about the possibility that they might just have brainfarted or hgave been misunderstood (both which can be easily redeemed).

In the end, ofcourse, staying 100% polite and factual at all times would be better (and that applies to all of us) but damn it can be so entertaining

Sat 24 Aug 2019 11:39 PM by Iqupl

PLAYER1 <attack> :: 2 + 2 = 3
PLAYER2 <attack> :: 2 + 2 = 6

PLAYER1 [thread post] :: "Hey, I'm seeing something that makes me not trust the numbers."

DEV1 [response] :: "Your words are stupid. You have all the numbers in front of you. There should be no problem."

DEV? [alternative response] :: "I see from your posts and previous /appeal that you have been experiencing what appears to be a fault with the damage calculation. We see no issues here. However, maybe you have been experiencing something we are not aware of. We certainly do not have time or the gumption to track and inspect every fight that occurs. Would you be willing to save a special log to help us identify if there is indeed a problem associated with your account that may be affecting other accounts? Do you have time to do a short duration of damage testing for us on the test dummies and report some specific values for us to compare with our tables?"

Yeah. I was just trying to help expose a problem that seems to have escaped notice. It is your game. These are your forums. I won't go away mad. I will just go away. Thanks for the time, anyways. Take care.

Sat 24 Aug 2019 11:49 PM by Estat

Iqupl wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 11:39 PM
PLAYER1 [thread post] :: "Hey, I'm seeing something that makes me not trust the numbers."

What he really said is: "My Sword (slash damage) hunter (slash vulnerable) with a bad sword (3.5 speed) hits for less than a blade (slash damage) ranger (slash resistant) who probably uses a good weapon. WHY?!?!? NO FAIR?!?!"

Sun 25 Aug 2019 7:32 AM by Cadebrennus

.
.
Basically if you want better damage Vs all Hibs use a thrust weapon, something that can be used in 2hands..... if only something like Spears existed in Mid for Hunters.....

Btw a Thrust Spear does excellent damage Vs Alb chainmail too.

And as pointed out above he was probably Blades specced which has its own benefits and drawbacks. He was also probably using the slowest sword possible while you swung a faster weapon at him. Hey, at least you get a dog to add even more damage.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 7:58 AM by

gruenesschaf

Iqupl wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 11:39 PM
Yeah. I was just trying to help expose a problem that seems to have escaped notice. It is your game. These are your forums. I won't go away mad. I will just go away. Thanks for the time, anyways. Take care.

Exposing a problem by pointing out "this number in this particular circumstance makes no sense because x" is fine, either you are right and something will be fixed or you're wrong and someone will point out how or a mixture of both, like in the other thread where you were wondering about some numbers it turned out a mob is using a different damage type than the displayed weapon model suggests, however, that is exactly what you can easily determine by looking at the provided numbers.

The problem is that you suggest there is something just wrong and numbers can't be trusted and you take hunter with a 3.5 sword vs blade ranger as an example and then add

Iqupl wrote: ↑
Sat 24 Aug 2019 11:39 PM
PLAYER1 <attack> :: 2 + 2 = 3
PLAYER2 <attack> :: 2 + 2 = 6

Completely ignorant of armor vulnerabilities / resistences, ignoring the possibility for 4.x weapons, not mentioning what kind of sc you have, what buffs you were running or anything else really. It's similar to the 9xx crit shot post and saying someone is speccing right, basically insinuating it's completely over the top.
Again, at best completely ignoring armor vulnerabilities at worst case being convinced that bow damage is too high or even convinced that the approximating formula that uses the overall effective af is correct while having 9% crush resist and being hit by a crush arrow as an infi.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 8:28 AM by

gruenesschaf

Maybe to make it clearer:

If someone who has no idea about anything asks "Why do I only hit for half of what the other person hits?" and posts a screen shot, you can be almost sure he will get an almost friendly response pointing out the different things.

However, if someone who claims knowledge of mechanics but in another posts shows that this is not the case, is corrected on it and in the same thread still shows complete ignorance to the new information and then makes a new post, basically once again showing the lack of knowledge of mechanics while saying how numbers can't be trusted and thereby insinuating stuff is rigged against a certain class or in favor of another. You can be sure that you will not receive a friendly response with that premise.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 9:39 AM by Kaziera

Dis is gold.

Also in other words: lern to read lol.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 12:09 AM by Cadebrennus

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 9:39 AM
Dis is gold.

Also in other words: lern to read lol.

That and at least learn the basics of the mechanics lol.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 7:28 AM by Sepplord

Afaik the magic-resist-modificators aren't active on phoenix or are they?

Mon 26 Aug 2019 12:45 PM by

gruenesschaf

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Aug 2019 7:28 AM
Afaik the magic-resist-modificators aren't active on phoenix or are they?

They are but don't matter as they only apply against melee damage of that type aka legendary weapons and not all cast damage.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 4:06 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Aug 2019 12:45 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Aug 2019 7:28 AM
Afaik the magic-resist-modificators aren't active on phoenix or are they?

They are but don't matter as they only apply against melee damage of that type aka legendary weapons and not all cast damage.

What about weapon procs? I can't remember if procs count as cast or not.