Can't seem to win against NS/Ranger/Infil

-Fully temped MP armor
-MP axes. Yes I swap during fight. I apply all poisons. (enervate+disease then lifebane+weakning)
-I apply haste debuff (pillager axe line)
-I use heal potion
-I use dmg add charge
-I prep Abalative before fights.

/RAS/ = Quick 3, MoA3, Mop4 and Purge 3 /spec/ = 44 CS, 38 Axe, 36 Envenom, 36 Stealth, LA 22

Of course my dmg is not on par with any of them. I hit for 90-100dmg at most. My leaper averages 130.
Savrun hits me for 185... etc

I can't seem to get ahead

What hurts the most is I miss and fumble ALOT or get my attacks evaded.

P.S Don't tell me 50 LA . It sucks. Doublefrost for 105dmg and an extra 10dmg on offhand... is not a game changer.

Thank you everyone in advance and I'm sorry for my negative tone. I really do appreciate you all.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 12:56 AM by Bobbahunter

I cannot comment on Your spec since I never played an Assassin but
Are your weapons player crafted? If so are they enchanted for the Bonus?

That’s all I got. Sorry

Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:38 AM by Campjr

So many variables that can turn a fight in your favor or your opponents.

Keep in mind that NS and Ranger are slash resistant and therefore will more than likely always be a tough fight.

Also, you need to do a true comparison of MH/OH damage over 10 swings in comparison to a similar ranked inf/NS. LA mechanics differ from those two and really shine in your weapon swap poison applying. Take advantage of it.

Also, comparing damage to a r10 slash inf won’t suffice my friend.

Few questions we need to get to;
Please tell me what poisons you are using and what is your rotation?

What armor and weapon procs are you running?
How are you utilizing purge?

When are you using DA and or Legion heal/heal pot? Are you using superior heal pot or standard heal pot?

Are you setup to get first swing on other assassins or are you consistently being hit first?

Lastly, SB do have it the worst at low RR. It’s going to be a grind and as much as I hate to say it, you could find a duo partner.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:07 AM by 2flare

answers:

1) rotation of poisons => (enervate+disease then swap weapons for lifebane+weakning)

2) Armor effects => ALL ablatives. chest is heal(TG vest)

3) Weapon procs => 1st set of weapons(MH= Dot from Dragonmight OH: Haste %) , after swap MH=Dot OH:Lifetap)

4) Purge 3 => keeping it for when stunned

5) I have both Legion heal + instant heal pots

6) who attacks first? => i'd say 50/50

This horrible. So I have to get to RR7 in order to make SB have a chance against 2 other assassin classes... Basically play 80% of the game getting pwned

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:33 AM by Freedomcall

You already know the solution but you refuse to accept it.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:46 AM by 2flare

I refuse to go 50LA and do an extra 10-19dmg per swing. I've done the tests on dummies. It was a combined 19dmg extra on both hands COMBINED.

I'm not gonna lose PA,CD for 19 dmg.

Also, I lose the Hamstring chain for frosty gaze which is stupid since it WILL CAUSE A PURGE TO HAPPEN negating all my efforts to apply poisons.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:28 AM by Freedomcall

OK, so you chose to be a gimp version of NS.
You have no dd, you have unfavorable resist table and you even don't have stun.
What advantage do you think SB has compared to them?

Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:29 AM by 2flare

None whatsoever. ALso the stun is a joke... they got the insta evade stun. We don't

Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:34 AM by bm01

2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:46 AM
I'm not gonna lose PA,CD for 19 dmg.

I don't play SB but that definitely sounds like a fair trade to me. Doesn't most of PA's damage get nullified because of the poison?

Thu 15 Aug 2019 4:38 AM by Torye

I feel your pain. Not much you can do.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:11 AM by Freedomcall

2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:29 AM
None whatsoever. ALso the stun is a joke... they got the insta evade stun. We don't

Insta evade stun could be good, but that doesn't mean 2-step evade stun doesn't have any advantage.
I personally think 2-step evade stun is more beneficial for SB.
Why? because Comeback can be spammed whenever for pure dps purpose.

As you have stated, landing stun too early is not very helpful, because most of the stealthers have their purge up, and you just have to reapply all the poisons again.
This is one of the reasons why i think NS/Ranger's side stun is overrated.
Anyway, you lose your hamstring chain when you go 50 LA and your LA evade chain should work as a replacement of Hamstring chain.
In this situation, if Comeback had stun effect, it won't be beneficial to use it. So all you can do is to spam doublefrost.
But, because Frosty Gaze has the stun and Comeback doesn't, you can spam Comeback whenever it's possible.
You have about 25ish% for evade rate in assassin vs assassin fights, so growthrate of Comeback really helps.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:26 AM by Freedomcall

Torye wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 4:38 AM
I feel your pain. Not much you can do.

I kinda hate this kind of defeatism.
Why SBs don't have much to do against NS/Infils?
There are plenty of SBs competing well, and I also never had such a feeling that NS/Infils are superior to SBs while playing SB on this server.
Yes, it can be really tough if you are fighting against +4 rr playing or smth, but it has always been 50:50 fight on +-1 RR player.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:01 AM by Mavella

Don't expect to hang with high (rr7+) sins until you are 6+. Sorry but all the sins scale with RR more than any other class in the game. I took my ass whooping from rr7+ sins while I was ranking up. Everyone does. You'll get lucky and best them occasionally but it's gonna be an uphill battle every time. Everyone also runs slash meaning they get bonus damage to you and you get to be neutral or damage penalty.

Your spec is fine. 50 LA is overrated. You just need RRs to get your LA pumped up to 30+.

Personally I think sword spec and the str/con debuff proc is far superior to the triple dot setup especially in sin fights. You'll see those effects immediately whereas you need fights to last for those dot procs to really play a major role. If you get a str/con proc on the first or second swing vs a sin that doesn't vastly outrank you you're gonna be in really good shape to win. If you choose to continue axe and the dot stacking I would pump toughness so your fights last a little longer giving those procs time to actually do something. You'll likely do better vs visible with the dot stack load out as those fights last a lot longer. Most sin fights seem to resolve in 20 seconds or less. Not much time for dot procs to work right? Try and land the side haste debuff as well as its one of the best in the game and can really hinder an enemies dps on you.

Getting rr5 helps a little bit with a touch more AF and a smidge more damage if you have MP gear. It's small but noticeable.

If you want to solo don't be too proud to scrape up some rps in DF. Zerg chase and pick off stragglers. Camp docks or paths that are less likely to have higher RR sins coming around. Alternatively duo until you rank up a bit and can be more competitive.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:14 AM by Sepplord

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:26 AM
Torye wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 4:38 AM
I feel your pain. Not much you can do.

I kinda hate this kind of defeatism.
Why SBs don't have much to do against NS/Infils?
There are plenty of SBs competing well, and I also never had such a feeling that NS/Infils are superior to SBs while playing SB on this server.
Yes, it can be really tough if you are fighting against +4 rr playing or smth, but it has always been 50:50 fight on +-1 RR player.

SBs can beat equal rank NS with luck or if the NS makes mistakes...but lets not ignore that NS has the advantage on their side in the assassin matchup. It's not 50/50 and the lower RR the worse it gets for SB

Thu 15 Aug 2019 9:33 AM by Irkeno

2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:07 AM
answers:

1) rotation of poisons => (enervate+disease then swap weapons for lifebane+weakning)

3) Weapon procs => 1st set of weapons(MH= Dot from Dragonmight OH: Haste %) , after swap MH=Dot OH:Lifetap)

1) Why aren't you using the haste debuff poison? Are you reapplying for purges/resists?

3)s/c debuff proc is powerful, d/q debuff proc is powerful. Not sure if sb get access to d/q debuff wep.

Also your LA is too low, whether you want to hear it or not. Not only in damage, but in lack of styles. Even though LA evade is 2 part, it is a game over if you saved it and land it after they've purged your poisons.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 9:48 AM by Turano

Haste debuff poison does not stack with style haste debuff effects

Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:32 AM by 2flare

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:11 AM
2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:29 AM
None whatsoever. ALso the stun is a joke... they got the insta evade stun. We don't

Insta evade stun could be good, but that doesn't mean 2-step evade stun doesn't have any advantage.
I personally think 2-step evade stun is more beneficial for SB.
Why? because Comeback can be spammed whenever for pure dps purpose.

As you have stated, landing stun too early is not very helpful, because most of the stealthers have their purge up, and you just have to reapply all the poisons again.
This is one of the reasons why i think NS/Ranger's side stun is overrated.
Anyway, you lose your hamstring chain when you go 50 LA and your LA evade chain should work as a replacement of Hamstring chain.
In this situation, if Comeback had stun effect, it won't be beneficial to use it. So all you can do is to spam doublefrost.
But, because Frosty Gaze has the stun and Comeback doesn't, you can spam Comeback whenever it's possible.
You have about 25ish% for evade rate in assassin vs assassin fights, so growthrate of Comeback really helps.

Can ypu please elaborate what you mean by spam comeback? Do you mean I can execute comebacl multiple times off of a single evade? Am i missi g something here?

Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:35 AM by 2flare

Thank you EVERYONE who took the time to read and try to help out.

I was honestly expecting a bunch of NS/INFies replies with "getGud"

I might retire. I dont feel like playing till RR8 to be have 50/50 chance. Would rather play something else

Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:47 AM by Taniquetil

2flare wrote: Thank you EVERYONE who took the time to read and try to help out.

I was honestly expecting a bunch of NS/INFies replies with "getGud"

I might retire. I dont feel like playing till RR8 to be have 50/50 chance. Would rather play something else

Sub RR5 vs above RR5 is going to be tough, you cant expect to win those often to be fair.
Try 39CS or even 34 and higher LA. Test it.

I think the damage loss from lower CS is made up for by higher LA.

Also 10-15dmg a swing equates to 100-150dmg over the course of the fight that only lasts 10 swings, given the sb hp pool, plus heals and procs, its gonna last longer than that almost always, thats not to be laughed at. especially when adding dmg add.

Not always right to use dmg add each fight either, its a case basis and depends on who/what you're up vs and who jumps who and timers.

Think about your RA's as well, I'd argue thats not optimal for you.

39 Axe 34% haste debuff side positional is also worth considering, I know Yroniel loved it, especially vs tanks.

Mavella is right re sword and the str debuff, its definitely noticeable, also personally I am more a fan of burst damage from heat DD's than dots, especially later in fights as given the pace of the fights and likelihood of a purge stacking dots to hope for bigger ROI over a longer period of time is risky. Str/con debuffs early, heat DD's late.

Also reapplying poisons after a purge is key. If you hit disease in quick after purge sometimes you beat them to the heal pots, and you HAVE to keep an eye on resisted poisons, 10% resist rate is massive, its almost guaranteed a resist over the course of the fight on something....

Equally, stay calm, focus on what you can, personally I picked on scraps at low RR and shamelessly joined the odd keep take for task rp. Take your knocks ranking up as lessons and see what the people who play against you do.

And, im sure you already do, but focus on your highest GR styles and most rewarding debuff styles.

See my videos below, sb/ns competitiveness is neck and neck at high end, edits show wins, because... its an edit, but look at the hp left each fight vs the better sb's, its a coinflip in an even opening scenario.

Good luck! P.s. GitGudScrub. KIDDING!

Thu 15 Aug 2019 12:59 PM by 2flare

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:47 AM
2flare wrote: Thank you EVERYONE who took the time to read and try to help out.

I was honestly expecting a bunch of NS/INFies replies with "getGud"

I might retire. I dont feel like playing till RR8 to be have 50/50 chance. Would rather play something else

Sub RR5 vs above RR5 is going to be tough, you cant expect to win those often to be fair.
Try 39CS or even 34 and higher LA. Test it.

I think the damage loss from lower CS is made up for by higher LA.

Also 10-15dmg a swing equates to 100-150dmg over the course of the fight that only lasts 10 swings, given the sb hp pool, plus heals and procs, its gonna last longer than that almost always, thats not to be laughed at. especially when adding dmg add.

Not always right to use dmg add each fight either, its a case basis and depends on who/what you're up vs and who jumps who and timers.

Think about your RA's as well, I'd argue thats not optimal for you.

39 Axe 34% haste debuff side positional is also worth considering, I know Yroniel loved it, especially vs tanks.

Mavella is right re sword and the str debuff, its definitely noticeable, also personally I am more a fan of burst damage from heat DD's than dots, especially later in fights as given the pace of the fights and likelihood of a purge stacking dots to hope for bigger ROI over a longer period of time is risky. Str/con debuffs early, heat DD's late.

Also reapplying poisons after a purge is key. If you hit disease in quick after purge sometimes you beat them to the heal pots, and you HAVE to keep an eye on resisted poisons, 10% resist rate is massive, its almost guaranteed a resist over the course of the fight on something....

Equally, stay calm, focus on what you can, personally I picked on scraps at low RR and shamelessly joined the odd keep take for task rp. Take your knocks ranking up as lessons and see what the people who play against you do.

And, im sure you already do, but focus on your highest GR styles and most rewarding debuff styles.

See my videos below, sb/ns competitiveness is neck and neck at high end, edits show wins, because... its an edit, but look at the hp left each fight vs the better sb's, its a coinflip in an even opening scenario.

Good luck! P.s. GitGudScrub. KIDDING!

Tani thank you so much for taking the time. Considering you are one of the NS that rips me apart, I do appreciate you trying lend a helping hand. Kind regards.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:32 PM by Campjr

Mavella and Tani hit the points for you. Any assassins has to grind the low RR, its just what it is. I wouldnt be too discouraged by the whole SB vs NS matchup if you are playing the SB well, you will still win the vast majority of fights. Keep doing what youre doing and focus on some of the points above and get some thick skin at r4 and youll be fine. I'd consider dropping CS down to 39 and raising LA. I'm not a fan of the 50 LA spec as it leaves your options very minimal.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:33 PM by SlowMo

My Thrust Inf gets destroyed pretty reliably by every SB, no matter RR .-)

Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:38 PM by Phibe

Many things that ppl already here stated correctly, plus though:

Left Axe (note that this applies to both mainhand and offhand weapons):

modified damage = base damage * (.625 + .0034 * LA spec)

this and the fact that swing speed on styled swings is just determined by your mainhand weapon delay + modifiers (qui/haste) you should use your unique mid offhand weapon choice of 4.2 spd (WTF!!)

i didnt have any problems vs high rank infils or any ns at the beginning in OF while playing Kunibert my SB and i can tell ya: 50 LA and 39 axe (34% ASR Side Pos) is the key as soon as you can get it.
You can nicely use aurora borealis chain just by using BS 1 for example, you just have to get the anchor style in for the chain... . On tanks you open with BS1 and debuff with ASR for example.
Also using purge to gain 2 undiseased heals through is a powerful countermeasure, especially later in the fight. Many ppl make the mistake to just purge when stunned. didnt read the whole thread, sorry if repeated something someone else already said.

/regards Phibe

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:08 PM by Freedomcall

Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:01 AM
Don't expect to hang with high (rr7+) sins until you are 6+. Sorry but all the sins scale with RR more than any other class in the game. I took my ass whooping from rr7+ sins while I was ranking up. Everyone does. You'll get lucky and best them occasionally but it's gonna be an uphill battle every time. Everyone also runs slash meaning they get bonus damage to you and you get to be neutral or damage penalty.

Your spec is fine. 50 LA is overrated. You just need RRs to get your LA pumped up to 30+.

50 LA isn't overrated.
You already revealed truth in your statement without noticing.
You describe how hard to deal with rr7+ sins until you are 6+("as a CS SB"

, and say "You need to get your LA pumped up to 30+".
And then conclude that his spec is fine?

I can say, with a bit of exaggeration, that 50 LA is the only viable spec on low rr for solo SB.
Maybe you can switch to CS when you get rr7+ or rr8 if you want,
But you can't compete NS/Infil with some gimp-NS-version of 44CS 22LA spec on low ranks.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:17 PM by Mavella

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:38 PM
Many things that ppl already here stated correctly, plus though:

Left Axe (note that this applies to both mainhand and offhand weapons):

modified damage = base damage * (.625 + .0034 * LA spec)

That isn't how LA scales here now. They updated it to the updated formula on live.

Mainhand damage starts at 77.33% +0.34% per point offhand starts 52.00% +0.52% per point.

With 22+14 LA his mainhand damage is already at 89% of a posssible 100% at 50+20LA. The offhand damage and scaling is also pretty negligible if you're using a 2.4 LA as you should be. At 39+20 mine is only 38 per swing. It's certainly added DPS but SBs now benefit much more greatly from our mainhand damage and aren't punished for not being able to spec high LA when we take 44CS at early realm ranks. Hamstring chain is also phenomenal and keeping this defensive bonuses up means more misses from NS/Inf offhand swings that hurt significantly more than SBs.

Also as a note landing stealth perfs on other stealthers is worthwhile. Everyone runs preloaded albatives and that pops theirs in 1 swing rather than halving your first 2-3 hits. You then get the advantage of having the first few swings on you reduced. Nothing says you HAVE to follow up with the stun if you feel they are just going to purge it anyway.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:18 PM by 2flare

Campjr wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:32 PM
Mavella and Tani hit the points for you. Any assassins has to grind the low RR, its just what it is. I wouldnt be too discouraged by the whole SB vs NS matchup if you are playing the SB well, you will still win the vast majority of fights. Keep doing what youre doing and focus on some of the points above and get some thick skin at r4 and youll be fine. I'd consider dropping CS down to 39 and raising LA. I'm not a fan of the 50 LA spec as it leaves your options very minimal.

I am RR4 and "the vast majority of fights" i'm not winning. It's definately not 50/50. It's more like I beat 1 out of 8 or 9 (infs or ns). Read my post=> I'm doing everything that I can do. 10-19dmg per swing from going 50LA(both MH/OH combined is not a game changer if it EVEN IF that amounts to 100dmg the entire fight BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT my opponents win significantly outdmg me by more than 100 dmg. Often fight ends and they have 50% of their HPs left.

I Respectfully disagree but I wanna say thank you for your encouraging words, I really do appreciate you taking the time.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:32 PM by 2flare

Thankyou everyone. I'm shelving the SB.

I already spent Alot of hours leveling up a farmer and countless hours farming for my temp, MP weapons,armor etc.
I'm Not going to spend another minute more to get to RR8 just so I can not lose 7-8/10 of my fights against sins...

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:38 PM by Mavella

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:08 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:01 AM
Don't expect to hang with high (rr7+) sins until you are 6+. Sorry but all the sins scale with RR more than any other class in the game. I took my ass whooping from rr7+ sins while I was ranking up. Everyone does. You'll get lucky and best them occasionally but it's gonna be an uphill battle every time. Everyone also runs slash meaning they get bonus damage to you and you get to be neutral or damage penalty.

Your spec is fine. 50 LA is overrated. You just need RRs to get your LA pumped up to 30+.

50 LA isn't overrated.
You already revealed truth in your statement without noticing.
You describe how hard to deal with rr7+ sins until you are 6+("as a CS SB", and say "You need to get your LA pumped up to 30+".
And then conclude that his spec is fine?

I can say, with a bit of exaggeration, that 50 LA is the only viable spec on low rr for solo SB.
Maybe you can switch to CS when you get rr7+ or rr8 if you want,
But you can't compete NS/Infil with some gimp-NS-version of 44CS 22LA spec on low ranks.

See my previous post. There's more issues here than spec. He's missing a possible 10% mainhand damage with his current spec but makes up for it with significantly higher anytime and evade chain damage. He's also running a proc load out that isn't really effective in sin fights unless he's running toughness 9 + glacial movement + some luck. An early str/con proc with a switch to DD or lifetap in the mainhand is going to be WAY more effective in a short sin fight than a dot proc.

With CS spec he's also getting the benefit of evade bonuses when hamstring and leaper are active. Making inf/ns offhand miss at 25% rate rather than 15% is punishing. Way more punishing for them than it is for SBs. I ran 44cs from rr4 to rr10 where I'm now 46CS because those 2 points did more for my damage than going 41 LA.

Wins/Losses at rr4 vs rr7+ is almost purely down to purge readiness, amount of passives stacked, statistical RR advantage, slopply play by either party. 50LA isn't going to let you start magically beating those other sins unless you get a stun off with their purge down etc which I'd say is the exception rather than the norm.

Every RR10 SB that I've talked to and tested 50LA vs high CS spec agrees that 50LA is pretty underwhelming. I haven't done the testing personally but I can extrapolate that I'll be giving up a little mainhand damage for slightly more offhand damage and what I would consider vastly inferior styles for 1v1 fights especially against sins. 50LA might be better vs visibles and such where their purge is much more likely to be down but I fight way more sins than visibles so I want to maximize my chances vs them.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:55 PM by Freedomcall

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:26 AM
Torye wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 4:38 AM
I feel your pain. Not much you can do.

I kinda hate this kind of defeatism.
Why SBs don't have much to do against NS/Infils?
There are plenty of SBs competing well, and I also never had such a feeling that NS/Infils are superior to SBs while playing SB on this server.
Yes, it can be really tough if you are fighting against +4 rr playing or smth, but it has always been 50:50 fight on +-1 RR player.

SBs can beat equal rank NS with luck or if the NS makes mistakes...but lets not ignore that NS has the advantage on their side in the assassin matchup. It's not 50/50 and the lower RR the worse it gets for SB

That isn't true. My SB had absolutely no problem fighting NS.
Equal rank is equal rank,
There are so many things SB benefits from, but lots of SBs just focus on unfavorable resist table. That is the problem.

And let's face it. If the NS makes mistakes?
If you check the combat log every time, you'll find even rr10 or "nameds" sometimes make mistakes(Not reapplying poison etc).
Yes, I also make mistakes and that is when i lose the fight.
You shouldn't be ignoring that everyone here is a human being, and "making mistakes" is a very common thing in stealth wars.
Nothing to belittle SB's victory even if NS has made mistakes on that fight.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 4:39 PM by Taniquetil

2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 12:59 PM
Tani thank you so much for taking the time. Considering you are one of the NS that rips me apart, I do appreciate you trying lend a helping hand. Kind regards.

All good, i think im going to run on a friends SB soon, will probably clip some bits. Stick with it man, you'll get there.

Maybe even record some and watch back, helped my game a lot.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:06 PM by Phibe

Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:17 PM
With 22+14 LA his mainhand damage is already at 89% of a posssible 100% at 50+20LA. The offhand damage and scaling is also pretty negligible if you're using a 2.4 LA as you should be.

why the hell should you use such a fast offhand? and btw LA styles' growth rates are very nice as well. I played the SB until 6L1 and won nearly every single 1v1 i encountered, even vs high rank infils. SB is basically the only assassin where some kind of dual wielder spec makes much sense than CS spec. the gain from CS is marginal, bs1 is enough there to break bt but the rest is not really needed.

/regards Phibe

Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:29 PM by Cadebrennus

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:38 PM
Many things that ppl already here stated correctly, plus though:

Left Axe (note that this applies to both mainhand and offhand weapons):

modified damage = base damage * (.625 + .0034 * LA spec)

this and the fact that swing speed on styled swings is just determined by your mainhand weapon delay + modifiers (qui/haste) you should use your unique mid offhand weapon choice of 4.2 spd (WTF!!)

i didnt have any problems vs high rank infils or any ns at the beginning in OF while playing Kunibert my SB and i can tell ya: 50 LA and 39 axe (34% ASR Side Pos) is the key as soon as you can get it.
You can nicely use aurora borealis chain just by using BS 1 for example, you just have to get the anchor style in for the chain... . On tanks you open with BS1 and debuff with ASR for example.
Also using purge to gain 2 undiseased heals through is a powerful countermeasure, especially later in the fight. Many ppl make the mistake to just purge when stunned. didnt read the whole thread, sorry if repeated something someone else already said.

/regards Phibe

Swing speed is also averaged on styled swings. However due to the miniscule difference in average swing speed dependent on offhands available in Alb and Hib it's a better bet dps-wise to go with a slow offhanded. I haven't tested recently with a 4.2 offhand, but I do remember on Live (with +swing speed % from TOAs etc.) that it still wasn't significant. Point is, the difference is there, but it's still better to go slow offhand in my opinion. This should be the same for Mid and LA.

Tests:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3995&hilit=Drunken+Celtic

Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:33 PM by Mavella

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:06 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:17 PM
With 22+14 LA his mainhand damage is already at 89% of a posssible 100% at 50+20LA. The offhand damage and scaling is also pretty negligible if you're using a 2.4 LA as you should be.

why the hell should you use such a fast offhand? and btw LA styles' growth rates are very nice as well. I played the SB until 6L1 and won nearly every single 1v1 i encountered, even vs high rank infils. SB is basically the only assassin where some kind of dual wielder spec makes much sense than CS spec. the gain from CS is marginal, bs1 is enough there to break bt but the rest is not really needed.

/regards Phibe

Because even with MoArms 5 and Aug qui 4 as a Norse I only swing at about 1.65-1.7 speed. If you want to maximize dps you want to be swinging as close to the 1.5sec cap as reasonably possible. This is DAOC 101. If I'm in a group with celerity? I use a 4.2 offhand while celerity is running.

If you're solo and not taking advantage of the LA "haste" effect with a slow mainhand and fast offhand you're doing your DPS a total disservice.

I'm also not saying 50LA is gimped by any stretch of the imagination. I'm saying high CS is superior in a far wider variety of applications and especially so in sin fights where you really aren't looking to land stuns and you're extremely unlikely to land the AB chain.

I'm also glad you were able to solo high RR sins and would love to hear some names of those you beat which such consistency. I know my experience was vastly different and I know 50LA wasn't going to change the outcome of any of those fights.

As for the most superior Dual wielding lines. Infs access to dual shadows is by far the most impactful in sin 1v1s since it's a high GR style that is essentially any anytime with a 15dmg bleed tacked on for good measure. Infs also have the points to crank their CS and use Hamstring and Leaper as they are considerably better than the DW evade styles unless you happen to be looking to land a stun.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:50 PM by Dominus

Mavella to go outside a bit, maybe jump on tinder.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:54 PM by Mavella

Dominus wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:50 PM
Mavella to go outside a bit, maybe jump on tinder.

Coming from the guy with more posts of the forum than I have. It takes 3 minutes to write these posts. Thanks for your concern though buddy!

Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:02 PM by 2flare

Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:54 PM
Dominus wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:50 PM
Mavella to go outside a bit, maybe jump on tinder.

Coming from the guy with more posts of the forum than I have. It takes 3 minutes to write these posts. Thanks for your concern though buddy!

Ignore that ****s. Thank you for your comments, super helpful. I've tried 50LA twice. It's not a game changer as everyone makes it sound IMO. Landing that backchain in the middle of the fight is highly unlikely .

Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:54 PM by vxr

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 4:39 PM
2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 12:59 PM
Tani thank you so much for taking the time. Considering you are one of the NS that rips me apart, I do appreciate you trying lend a helping hand. Kind regards.

All good, i think im going to run on a friends SB soon, will probably clip some bits. Stick with it man, you'll get there.

Maybe even record some and watch back, helped my game a lot.

Be careful with using someone else account. You don't want to get you or your friend's account banned. Would be a shame. If you do let me know who your playing. =)

Recording and re-watching your fights really does help. Good tip Tani! For example At RR4L6ish I noticed that I broke my own mezz because I had a spell queue on. I hadn't played this game in many years and total forgot about the /noqueue command. Re-watching that clip made me realize that I had to disable spell queue. That's just one example, but there have been many things that I have noticed from watching my own clips.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:10 PM by Dominus

Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:54 PM
Dominus wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:50 PM
Mavella to go outside a bit, maybe jump on tinder.

Coming from the guy with more posts of the forum than I have. It takes 3 minutes to write these posts. Thanks for your concern though buddy!

how's that tinder thing going?

Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:26 PM by Phibe

As i said in my first post here swingspeed on this server for styled swings is only determined by your mainhand no matter what offhand you are using. On live they changed that with end of SI. Here though they use the old mechanic. You can test it easily. Therefore the slowest offhand you can find is always best. And therefore SBs are v strong using that plus 50 LA.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:54 PM by Mavella

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:26 PM
As i said in my first post here swingspeed on this server for styled swings is only determined by your mainhand no matter what offhand you are using. On live they changed that with end of SI. Here though they use the old mechanic. You can test it easily. Therefore the slowest offhand you can find is always best. And therefore SBs are v strong using that plus 50 LA.

This is 100% incorrect. The swing speed is averaged when both hands swing. For LA this is every swing. For DW/CD it's whenever their offhand actually fires which is obviously modified by their total composite level of those respective lines. Extremely easy to test on a zerk or sb using a slow/fast set up vs slow/slow set up. You'll swing significantly faster with slow/fast.

If you have low CD/DW you might not swing the offhand enough to warrant utilizing this speed increase but once you're like RR5+ and your composite spec is 45+ you're going to be swinging your offhand 62% or more of the time giving you plenty of opportunity to use this "haste" effect in a fight.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:18 PM by Phibe

You didnt get me there: swing speed when dual wielding and using styles is not averaged by both weapon delays it swings with mainhand delay. The only case where swing speed of both weapons is averaged in the old mechanic is when you swing with both weapons unstyled and both weapons hit. Again: for dual wielders on this server offhand weapon delay just doesnt matter at all when using styles.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:22 PM by Phibe

What you describe is the common knowledge on live server but that doesnt apply here on phoenix. Test it. Most obvious testing can be done on mid hitting dummies with styles with 4.2 speed offhand and swapping in 2.4 speed offhand. You wont notice any difference at all because there is none

Thu 15 Aug 2019 9:22 PM by Mavella

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:22 PM
What you describe is the common knowledge on live server but that doesnt apply here on phoenix. Test it. Most obvious testing can be done on mid hitting dummies with styles with 4.2 speed offhand and swapping in 2.4 speed offhand. You wont notice any difference at all because there is none

Yes I just tested and I easily notice myself swinging faster with a 4.2/2.4 vs a 4.2/4.2 set up. Anyone can test with any amount of stats, styled or un-styled you will swing faster with 4.2/2.4 than 4.2/4.2.

This is the expected behavior. You're welcome to provide some contradictory evidence however rather than talking out your ass.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 9:36 PM by Campjr

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:18 PM
You didnt get me there: swing speed when dual wielding and using styles is not averaged by both weapon delays it swings with mainhand delay. The only case where swing speed of both weapons is averaged in the old mechanic is when you swing with both weapons unstyled and both weapons hit. Again: for dual wielders on this server offhand weapon delay just doesnt matter at all when using styles.

This would be incorrect based on tests I’ve done

Fri 16 Aug 2019 3:16 AM by

gruenesschaf

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:22 PM
What you describe is the common knowledge on live server but that doesnt apply here on phoenix. Test it. Most obvious testing can be done on mid hitting dummies with styles with 4.2 speed offhand and swapping in 2.4 speed offhand. You wont notice any difference at all because there is none

Why do people even start rumors about these kind of things? In mid literally all you have to do is hit the dummy 4 times while naked. Twice with just a slow mainhand, noting the delay and twice with a slow mainhand and fast offhand, given a 4.2 mh and 2.4 oh with basically zero quickness the difference should be quite obvious as it should be about a second and hence not really require any kind of logging. I could almost understand this kind of confusion for hib / alb as the averaging only happens on swings where both weapons swing but oh well.

It looks more like you are just referencing an old test made by cadebrennus which turned out to be wrong or you're confusing the averaging not having an effect on the style damage with the averaging not affecting the final swing delay.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:24 AM by Sepplord

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:55 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 5:26 AM
I kinda hate this kind of defeatism.
Why SBs don't have much to do against NS/Infils?
There are plenty of SBs competing well, and I also never had such a feeling that NS/Infils are superior to SBs while playing SB on this server.
Yes, it can be really tough if you are fighting against +4 rr playing or smth, but it has always been 50:50 fight on +-1 RR player.

SBs can beat equal rank NS with luck or if the NS makes mistakes...but lets not ignore that NS has the advantage on their side in the assassin matchup. It's not 50/50 and the lower RR the worse it gets for SB

That isn't true. My SB had absolutely no problem fighting NS.
Equal rank is equal rank,
There are so many things SB benefits from, but lots of SBs just focus on unfavorable resist table. That is the problem.

And let's face it. If the NS makes mistakes?
If you check the combat log every time, you'll find even rr10 or "nameds" sometimes make mistakes(Not reapplying poison etc).
Yes, I also make mistakes and that is when i lose the fight.
You shouldn't be ignoring that everyone here is a human being, and "making mistakes" is a very common thing in stealth wars.
Nothing to belittle SB's victory even if NS has made mistakes on that fight.

It seems a bit you want to argue semantics now. Yes NS make mistakes too....technically my post would have been better if i had said "MORE mistakes". All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc. the matchup favors the NS. That's a fact, and not just SBs focussing too hard on the 20% dmg difference.

Here is a post from the staff about that:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10670&p=80619#p80619

And before you get too confused, since the post takes a little bit of thought: if a reduction of the armor-penalties from 10% to 5% puts them close together, then the current situation cannot be balanced as you claim

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:00 AM by Cadebrennus

Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:26 PM
As i said in my first post here swingspeed on this server for styled swings is only determined by your mainhand no matter what offhand you are using. On live they changed that with end of SI. Here though they use the old mechanic. You can test it easily. Therefore the slowest offhand you can find is always best. And therefore SBs are v strong using that plus 50 LA.

I did test it. Read the first post in the thread. I even included the log in the second post for people who wanted to do their own parsing.

Click on the link to see.
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3995&hilit=Drunken+Celtic

That being said I'm still a proponent of a slow offhand.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:10 AM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 3:16 AM
Phibe wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:22 PM
What you describe is the common knowledge on live server but that doesnt apply here on phoenix. Test it. Most obvious testing can be done on mid hitting dummies with styles with 4.2 speed offhand and swapping in 2.4 speed offhand. You wont notice any difference at all because there is none

Why do people even start rumors about these kind of things? In mid literally all you have to do is hit the dummy 4 times while naked. Twice with just a slow mainhand, noting the delay and twice with a slow mainhand and fast offhand, given a 4.2 mh and 2.4 oh with basically zero quickness the difference should be quite obvious as it should be about a second and hence not really require any kind of logging. I could almost understand this kind of confusion for hib / alb as the averaging only happens on swings where both weapons swing but oh well.

It looks more like you are just referencing an old test made by cadebrennus which turned out to be wrong or you're confusing the averaging not having an effect on the style damage with the averaging not affecting the final swing delay.

Yup this is why when I re-tested and proved myself wrong I posted the updated results:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3995&hilit=Drunken+Celtic

Before the test I was going off of reading the raw log of the fight when I was on Live which didn't show fractions of a second in the log's time stamps. When I re-tested using a parser I was able to see the fractions of a second differ with different offhands. So yes, I did conclude that there is a haste effect, but I also concluded that it wasn't very significant with the offhand weapons available in Alb and Hib.

So yes, I do have some outdated information in the Ranger Guide regarding dual wielding, but I also have the updated information showing screenshots of the parser as well as logs and data. If you're going to tell people how wrong I was, then you could also tell people that I admitted that I was wrong and that I self-corrected for the betterment of the community and the game. Thank you.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:14 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:24 AM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:55 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
SBs can beat equal rank NS with luck or if the NS makes mistakes...but lets not ignore that NS has the advantage on their side in the assassin matchup. It's not 50/50 and the lower RR the worse it gets for SB

That isn't true. My SB had absolutely no problem fighting NS.
Equal rank is equal rank,
There are so many things SB benefits from, but lots of SBs just focus on unfavorable resist table. That is the problem.

And let's face it. If the NS makes mistakes?
If you check the combat log every time, you'll find even rr10 or "nameds" sometimes make mistakes(Not reapplying poison etc).
Yes, I also make mistakes and that is when i lose the fight.
You shouldn't be ignoring that everyone here is a human being, and "making mistakes" is a very common thing in stealth wars.
Nothing to belittle SB's victory even if NS has made mistakes on that fight.

It seems a bit you want to argue semantics now. Yes NS make mistakes too....technically my post would have been better if i had said "MORE mistakes". All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc. the matchup favors the NS. That's a fact, and not just SBs focussing too hard on the 20% dmg difference.

Here is a post from the staff about that:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10670&p=80619#p80619

And before you get too confused, since the post takes a little bit of thought: if a reduction of the armor-penalties from 10% to 5% puts them close together, then the current situation cannot be balanced as you claim

Yet whenever you bring up the 20% argument you will omit the WS difference between a Norse SB using strength weapons Vs an Elf/Keen using strength based weapons. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:20 AM by Clartiex

2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 12:04 AM
-Fully temped MP armor
-MP axes. Yes I swap during fight. I apply all poisons. (enervate+disease then lifebane+weakning)
-I apply haste debuff (pillager axe line)
-I use heal potion
-I use dmg add charge
-I prep Abalative before fights.

/RAS/ = Quick 3, MoA3, Mop4 and Purge 3 /spec/ = 44 CS, 38 Axe, 36 Envenom, 36 Stealth, LA 22

Of course my dmg is not on par with any of them. I hit for 90-100dmg at most. My leaper averages 130.
Savrun hits me for 185... etc

I can't seem to get ahead What hurts the most is I miss and fumble ALOT or get my attacks evaded.

P.S Don't tell me 50 LA . It sucks. Doublefrost for 105dmg and an extra 10dmg on offhand... is not a game changer.

Thank you everyone in advance and I'm sorry for my negative tone. I really do appreciate you all.

I really thing your best bet at that low RR is to drop your CS and run 52 comp weapon/LA. Comp 50 stealth and envenom, then put the rest in CS. I've been testing several different specs over the past month, and when I was low LA, I'd say like 23+17, I wasnt hitting with my offhand every swing, which totally gimped me out. You don't really think about it, but that 30-50 damage helps a lot. Right now I'm comp 50 stealth, envenom, comp 52 sword, 50 la and like 24ish CS, and I'm loving it. I have an evade attack slow, I have the evade stun to go off of, garrote for the snare, and double frost which deals about the same damage as garrote and doesnt have a defense penalty. So it's a win win. 🤷‍♂️ just solo'd a rr8 NS but I died at the end due to his poison and bleed. Al though I 100% agree high CS is the most fun. I was 50 CS for awhile, and I loved getting those 4 hamstring chains off. They were epic. But I cant afford the loss in other stats being only rr7.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:31 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:24 AM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:55 PM
That isn't true. My SB had absolutely no problem fighting NS.
Equal rank is equal rank,
There are so many things SB benefits from, but lots of SBs just focus on unfavorable resist table. That is the problem.

And let's face it. If the NS makes mistakes?
If you check the combat log every time, you'll find even rr10 or "nameds" sometimes make mistakes(Not reapplying poison etc).
Yes, I also make mistakes and that is when i lose the fight.
You shouldn't be ignoring that everyone here is a human being, and "making mistakes" is a very common thing in stealth wars.
Nothing to belittle SB's victory even if NS has made mistakes on that fight.

It seems a bit you want to argue semantics now. Yes NS make mistakes too....technically my post would have been better if i had said "MORE mistakes". All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc. the matchup favors the NS. That's a fact, and not just SBs focussing too hard on the 20% dmg difference.

Here is a post from the staff about that:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10670&p=80619#p80619

And before you get too confused, since the post takes a little bit of thought: if a reduction of the armor-penalties from 10% to 5% puts them close together, then the current situation cannot be balanced as you claim

Yet whenever you bring up the 20% argument you will omit the WS difference between a Norse SB using strength weapons Vs an Elf/Keen using strength based weapons. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Yet, whenever you don't read the whole comment but still comment, you come of as a dumbass...which is happening increasingly often from you since a few weeks ago...
It'S not even me that brought that argument up, and my post is about all factors included...not only the armorresists

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:55 AM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:31 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:24 AM
It seems a bit you want to argue semantics now. Yes NS make mistakes too....technically my post would have been better if i had said "MORE mistakes". All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc. the matchup favors the NS. That's a fact, and not just SBs focussing too hard on the 20% dmg difference.

Here is a post from the staff about that:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10670&p=80619#p80619

And before you get too confused, since the post takes a little bit of thought: if a reduction of the armor-penalties from 10% to 5% puts them close together, then the current situation cannot be balanced as you claim

Yet whenever you bring up the 20% argument you will omit the WS difference between a Norse SB using strength weapons Vs an Elf/Keen using strength based weapons. A lie of omission is still a lie.

Yet, whenever you don't read the whole comment but still comment, you come of as a dumbass...which is happening increasingly often from you since a few weeks ago...
It'S not even me that brought that argument up, and my post is about all factors included...not only the armorresists

You say things like this, but there's nothing in your prior comment that backs up what you're saying now. When you add insult to misinformation it just makes you look desperate. I bet you and Tigerforce are best friends.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 8:05 AM by Turano

What would composite 52 LA be good for?

Fri 16 Aug 2019 8:28 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:55 AM
You say things like this, but there's nothing in your prior comment that backs up what you're saying now. When you add insult to misinformation it just makes you look desperate. I bet you and Tigerforce are best friends.

What? the comment you made your bullshit reply on literally was structured exactly like i claimed.

I'll walk you through, since i know from other commentthread like this that you need multiple explanation before you even think about being wrong:

This was my comment:

It seems a bit you want to argue semantics now. Yes NS make mistakes too....technically my post would have been better if i had said "MORE mistakes". All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc. the matchup favors the NS. That's a fact, and not just SBs focussing too hard on the 20% dmg difference.

Here is a post from the staff about that:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewto ... 619#p80619

And before you get too confused, since the post takes a little bit of thought: if a reduction of the armor-penalties from 10% to 5% puts them close together, then the current situation cannot be balanced as you claim

The initial statement is:

All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc. the matchup favors the NS.

I assume this is what triggered you to write your nonsense-reply. I agree though, that the implication here is that the endresult is because of the armor-matchup. In no way does it imply though that i am leaving other factors out, quite the contrary.

In fact, i follow it up with:

That's a fact, and not just SBs focussing too hard on the 20% dmg difference.

This literally say that i am NOT focussing just on the armor difference...which means you did not read this far before making your comment. It was also added because the prior comment made exactly that claim (aka was bringing this topic up, that SBs only focus on that) and i adressed that.

I then followed my claim with a Link that contained proof to my claim:

Here is a post from the staff about that:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewto ... 619#p80619

And before you get too confused, since the post takes a little bit of thought: if a reduction of the armor-penalties from 10% to 5% puts them close together, then the current situation cannot be balanced as you claim

Fri 16 Aug 2019 10:24 AM by Mavella

Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 8:05 AM
What would composite 52 LA be good for?

At lower levels of composite LA (below 50-52 I believe) your offhand has a slightly higher chance to straight up miss than when you're past that spec threshold. I think at RR4 if you go 44 CS you only have 22+14 LA it's noticeable .

Its been a while since I was that RR but the worse I remember back then was being in the 17-18% miss chance range rather than the 15%-16% you'd expect. I imagine it would be similar for CD/DW users as well. As you rank up and drop stl/env/weapon and pump LA/CD/DW that miss chance decreases down to about 15~%. It's not huge but definitely there.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 3:33 PM by jelzinga_EU

Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 10:24 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 8:05 AM
What would composite 52 LA be good for?

At lower levels of composite LA (below 50-52 I believe) your offhand has a slightly higher chance to straight up miss than when you're past that spec threshold. I think at RR4 if you go 44 CS you only have 22+14 LA it's noticeable .

Its been a while since I was that RR but the worse I remember back then was being in the 17-18% miss chance range rather than the 15%-16% you'd expect. I imagine it would be similar for CD/DW users as well. As you rank up and drop stl/env/weapon and pump LA/CD/DW that miss chance decreases down to about 15~%. It's not huge but definitely there.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10411&p=77810

Essentially :
12 =17.39%
52 = 15.40%
67 = 14.65%
Missrate = 18% - 0.05%*Weaponspec

This is not capped at 52 - so there is an advantage of going over 52 LA (too) for OH chance-to-not-miss. In fact, it is linear so there is no reason to stop (or not) at 52.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 3:57 PM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:00 AM
That being said I'm still a proponent of a slow offhand.

Which is fine, but it makes it impossible to take you serious when it comes to advice. The advice to equip a slow offhand on Phoenix on stealthers without 20% haste, 10% TOA-haste, celerity-procs and 250 QUI is bad advice. You are lowering your DPS with such a choice and therefore gimping your character deliberately.

Out of curiosity tho, why are you still a proponent of a slow offhand ?

Fri 16 Aug 2019 4:07 PM by Cadebrennus

Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 10:24 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 8:05 AM
What would composite 52 LA be good for?

At lower levels of composite LA (below 50-52 I believe) your offhand has a slightly higher chance to straight up miss than when you're past that spec threshold. I think at RR4 if you go 44 CS you only have 22+14 LA it's noticeable .

Its been a while since I was that RR but the worse I remember back then was being in the 17-18% miss chance range rather than the 15%-16% you'd expect. I imagine it would be similar for CD/DW users as well. As you rank up and drop stl/env/weapon and pump LA/CD/DW that miss chance decreases down to about 15~%. It's not huge but definitely there.

I'm sorry that I ever assumed that you were a reasonable person with a modicum of intelligence. The very thing you point out ”All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc..." literally means that the other factors are equal. Wow. I'm done responding to you, ever. I'm just going to correctly assume from now on that you have no interest in balance and are just shit posting only in your own interest and to the detriment of other players and classes.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 4:19 PM by Cadebrennus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 3:57 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:00 AM
That being said I'm still a proponent of a slow offhand.

Which is fine, but it makes it impossible to take you serious when it comes to advice. The advice to equip a slow offhand on Phoenix on stealthers without 20% haste, 10% TOA-haste, celerity-procs and 250 QUI is bad advice. You are lowering your DPS with such a choice and therefore gimping your character deliberately.

Out of curiosity tho, why are you still a proponent of a slow offhand ?

Btw interesting results above regarding the unstyled To-Hit chances above 52 composite spec. I'm going to have to keep that in mind.

Just because I disagree over an opinion based on data doesn't make it a bad idea to take advice from me or anybody. It just means I have a difference of opinion. Basically, the reason I advise a slow offhand over a fast offhand is because of the following (and keep in mind I don't have my numbers in front of me so these are approximations from memory)

The average speed from the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib versus the slowest offhand in Alb/Hib led to approximately a +10% difference in DPS gain over time favouring the fastest offhand.

The damage-per-hit difference between the slowest offhand possible in Alb/Hib and the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib was something like 20% favouring the slow offhand

Based on these the damage over time effectiveness still favoured the slow offhand by approximately 10% over time, and by approximately 20% per hit. I haven't tested this on Mid, just Alb/Hib. Feel free to do your own tests, because this is what my tests have shown. Based on this I'm sticking with the slowest offhand I can find on Alb and Hib.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 4:24 PM by Freedomcall

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:24 AM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:55 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
SBs can beat equal rank NS with luck or if the NS makes mistakes...but lets not ignore that NS has the advantage on their side in the assassin matchup. It's not 50/50 and the lower RR the worse it gets for SB

That isn't true. My SB had absolutely no problem fighting NS.
Equal rank is equal rank,
There are so many things SB benefits from, but lots of SBs just focus on unfavorable resist table. That is the problem.

And let's face it. If the NS makes mistakes?
If you check the combat log every time, you'll find even rr10 or "nameds" sometimes make mistakes(Not reapplying poison etc).
Yes, I also make mistakes and that is when i lose the fight.
You shouldn't be ignoring that everyone here is a human being, and "making mistakes" is a very common thing in stealth wars.
Nothing to belittle SB's victory even if NS has made mistakes on that fight.

It seems a bit you want to argue semantics now. Yes NS make mistakes too....technically my post would have been better if i had said "MORE mistakes". All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc. the matchup favors the NS. That's a fact, and not just SBs focussing too hard on the 20% dmg difference.

Here is a post from the staff about that:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10670&p=80619#p80619

And before you get too confused, since the post takes a little bit of thought: if a reduction of the armor-penalties from 10% to 5% puts them close together, then the current situation cannot be balanced as you claim

I'm not interested in semantics, and what i meant was 'we should focus on fights that is actually happening, not just on paper daoc'.
I've already saw that post that gruenesschaf have posted, but there wasn't any information other than it was an 'automated test'.
It's not like i don't believe devs. I mean I was wondering about conditions they set for the test.
What race did they choose? What spec did they set? Which RAs did those chars got? Did they try some positionals?
Did those chars used purge and then heal potions heart of legion like lots of real players do? etc.
There are numerous things that can change the result imo.
I don't know. Maybe devs used Alphago and made them use deep learning to make test more exact.

So what i've stated is mostly based on my experience.
I consider myself as an average player, and i feel like fighting average NS with my SB is just as similar as how i felt fight average SB with my NS.
You want me to prove it with test? Sorry, I can't.
But my fights has been gone that way so far.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:17 PM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 4:19 PM
Just because I disagree over an opinion based on data doesn't make it a bad idea to take advice from me or anybody. It just means I have a difference of opinion. Basically, the reason I advise a slow offhand over a fast offhand is because of the following (and keep in mind I don't have my numbers in front of me so these are approximations from memory)

The average speed from the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib versus the slowest offhand in Alb/Hib led to approximately a +10% difference in DPS gain over time favouring the fastest offhand.

The damage-per-hit difference between the slowest offhand possible in Alb/Hib and the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib was something like 20% favouring the slow offhand

Based on these the damage over time effectiveness still favoured the slow offhand by approximately 10% over time, and by approximately 20% per hit. I haven't tested this on Mid, just Alb/Hib. Feel free to do your own tests, because this is what my tests have shown. Based on this I'm sticking with the slowest offhand I can find on Alb and Hib.

First of all, know that I'm Dutch and Dutch are known to sometimes be extremely blunt to people. That is not my intention (most of the times) but a character-trait sometimes hard to hide

As for your reasoning, it is flawed. You make the (faulty) assumption that somehow a 20% increase on 1 side and a 10% decrease on the other side the "net result" is +10%. This is a common mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless, which I will explain:

Assume these percentages:

* I do 200 DPS and by changing my offhand I do 180 DPS, therefore a 10% decrease, but with this new offhand I do 25 offhand instead of 20, therefore a 25% increase on my offhand damage.

If I add these numbers up, by your logic I get a 15% increase in damage, seeing -10%+25% = +15%. However, the reality is that the 10% decrease was based on a much higher number and therefore counts a lot heavier. The "real" end-result is that I actually lost damage.

I'm going to forgive you the mistake that you can't really compare "single swing"-damage to DPS because that is not very relevant in this discussion.

The other problem is more basic: You can't argue about facts, you can argue about opinions. If the fact is there that a faster offhand yields more DPS that is a fact, e.g. you can't change that fact just because your opinion is different. You could argue you prefer a slower offhand because of looks or "how you like big numbers in the combat-log" and those can be valid opinions to you, but you can't argue that they somehow magically yield more DPS just "because you say so / like them". That is why I call it bad advice, because those are subjective reasons which might apply to some individuals, but not to those who are interested about improving their character and chances to win.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:45 PM by Mavella

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 4:07 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 10:24 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 8:05 AM
What would composite 52 LA be good for?

At lower levels of composite LA (below 50-52 I believe) your offhand has a slightly higher chance to straight up miss than when you're past that spec threshold. I think at RR4 if you go 44 CS you only have 22+14 LA it's noticeable .

Its been a while since I was that RR but the worse I remember back then was being in the 17-18% miss chance range rather than the 15%-16% you'd expect. I imagine it would be similar for CD/DW users as well. As you rank up and drop stl/env/weapon and pump LA/CD/DW that miss chance decreases down to about 15~%. It's not huge but definitely there.

I'm sorry that I ever assumed that you were a reasonable person with a modicum of intelligence. The very thing you point out ”All things equal, both sins doing equal mistakes, having same resists/proccs etc..." literally means that the other factors are equal. Wow. I'm done responding to you, ever. I'm just going to correctly assume from now on that you have no interest in balance and are just shit posting only in your own interest and to the detriment of other players and classes.

Ummmmmm.... What?

I feel like this response doesn't have a whole lot to do with what I said about miss rates.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:48 PM by gotwqqd

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:17 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 4:19 PM
Just because I disagree over an opinion based on data doesn't make it a bad idea to take advice from me or anybody. It just means I have a difference of opinion. Basically, the reason I advise a slow offhand over a fast offhand is because of the following (and keep in mind I don't have my numbers in front of me so these are approximations from memory)

The average speed from the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib versus the slowest offhand in Alb/Hib led to approximately a +10% difference in DPS gain over time favouring the fastest offhand.

The damage-per-hit difference between the slowest offhand possible in Alb/Hib and the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib was something like 20% favouring the slow offhand

Based on these the damage over time effectiveness still favoured the slow offhand by approximately 10% over time, and by approximately 20% per hit. I haven't tested this on Mid, just Alb/Hib. Feel free to do your own tests, because this is what my tests have shown. Based on this I'm sticking with the slowest offhand I can find on Alb and Hib.

First of all, know that I'm Dutch and Dutch are known to sometimes be extremely blunt to people. That is not my intention (most of the times) but a character-trait sometimes hard to hide

As for your reasoning, it is flawed. You make the (faulty) assumption that somehow a 20% increase on 1 side and a 10% decrease on the other side the "net result" is +10%. This is a common mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless, which I will explain:

Assume these percentages:

* I do 200 DPS and by changing my offhand I do 180 DPS, therefore a 10% decrease, but with this new offhand I do 25 offhand instead of 20, therefore a 25% increase on my offhand damage.

If I add these numbers up, by your logic I get a 15% increase in damage, seeing -10%+25% = +15%. However, the reality is that the 10% decrease was based on a much higher number and therefore counts a lot heavier. The "real" end-result is that I actually lost damage.

I'm going to forgive you the mistake that you can't really compare "single swing"-damage to DPS because that is not very relevant in this discussion.

The other problem is more basic: You can't argue about facts, you can argue about opinions. If the fact is there that a faster offhand yields more DPS that is a fact, e.g. you can't change that fact just because your opinion is different. You could argue you prefer a slower offhand because of looks or "how you like big numbers in the combat-log" and those can be valid opinions to you, but you can't argue that they somehow magically yield more DPS just "because you say so / like them". That is why I call it bad advice, because those are subjective reasons which might apply to some individuals, but not to those who are interested about improving their character and chances to win.

This

The 20% is irrelevant
10% increase in DPS says it all...it takes the higher offhand damage but at a slower rate into the calculation

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:33 PM by Freedomcall

Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:38 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:08 PM
50 LA isn't overrated.
You already revealed truth in your statement without noticing.
You describe how hard to deal with rr7+ sins until you are 6+("as a CS SB", and say "You need to get your LA pumped up to 30+".
And then conclude that his spec is fine?

I can say, with a bit of exaggeration, that 50 LA is the only viable spec on low rr for solo SB.
Maybe you can switch to CS when you get rr7+ or rr8 if you want,
But you can't compete NS/Infil with some gimp-NS-version of 44CS 22LA spec on low ranks.

See my previous post. There's more issues here than spec. He's missing a possible 10% mainhand damage with his current spec but makes up for it with significantly higher anytime and evade chain damage. He's also running a proc load out that isn't really effective in sin fights unless he's running toughness 9 + glacial movement + some luck. An early str/con proc with a switch to DD or lifetap in the mainhand is going to be WAY more effective in a short sin fight than a dot proc.

With CS spec he's also getting the benefit of evade bonuses when hamstring and leaper are active. Making inf/ns offhand miss at 25% rate rather than 15% is punishing. Way more punishing for them than it is for SBs. I ran 44cs from rr4 to rr10 where I'm now 46CS because those 2 points did more for my damage than going 41 LA.

Wins/Losses at rr4 vs rr7+ is almost purely down to purge readiness, amount of passives stacked, statistical RR advantage, slopply play by either party. 50LA isn't going to let you start magically beating those other sins unless you get a stun off with their purge down etc which I'd say is the exception rather than the norm.

Every RR10 SB that I've talked to and tested 50LA vs high CS spec agrees that 50LA is pretty underwhelming. I haven't done the testing personally but I can extrapolate that I'll be giving up a little mainhand damage for slightly more offhand damage and what I would consider vastly inferior styles for 1v1 fights especially against sins. 50LA might be better vs visibles and such where their purge is much more likely to be down but I fight way more sins than visibles so I want to maximize my chances vs them.

This is the test I've done myself when i was RR4.

SB dmg test on dummy(-26% resist)
Fully buffed with composition pots
RR4 MH 4.2 / OH 2.4 spd
1. spec CS 44+14, Weap 38+14(comp52), LA 22+14
MH Norm hit : 71(-24) (dmg modifier: 1113)
MH Garrote : (+51) 109(-38)
OH : 26(-9)(99% qual)

2. spec CS 10+14, weap 36+14(comp50), LA 50+14
MH Norm hit : 78(-27) (dmg modifier: 1098)
MH Doublefrost : (+58) 121(-41)
OH : 36(-12)(99% qual)

Yes, I know CS anytime consists of Garrote+Achilles Heel, but unfortunately I can't find AH dmg. Maybe I forgot to write in my excel.
So, I've calculated AH dmg with the growthrate, based on the ratio of the CS spec dmg
Garrote GR:0.74, AH GR:1.03. So 51/0.74*1.03=70.98. I just rounded up to 71.
So AH dmg should be (+71) 123(-43) based on 26% resist.(of course there can be margin of error)

Now lets say you had 2 swings on each spec.
1. CS spec : Garrote+Achilles Heel+2 OH hits
109+123+26+26=284
2. LA spec : 2 Doublefrost hits+2 OH hits
121+121+36+36=314

I don't see any 'significantly higher anytime damage'. In fact, LA anytimer do far more dmg based on calculation.
Moreover, your swing can be missed/blocked/evaded/parried, which means you can't guarantee your Achilles heel dmg.

Now, evade chain. Of course this can't be tested on dummies, so I'll calculate in similar way
(again, remind there can be margin of error because this is just a calcultion, not ingame output)
1. CS growthrate : Hamstring 1.13, Leaper 1.33, Rib seperation 1.32
Hamstring : 51/0.74*1.13=77.87, rounding up to 78. so, (+78) 129(-44). If you add OH dmg, 129+26=155
Leaper : 51/0.74*1.33=91.66, rounding up to 92. so, (+92) 139(-48). If you add OH dmg, 139+26=165
Rib seper : 51/0.74*1.32 =90.97, rounding up to 91. so, (+91) 138(-48). If you add OH dmg, 138+26=164
2. LA growthrate : Comeback 0.94, Frosty Gaze 1.00
Comback : 58/0.75*0.94=72.69, rounding up to 73. so, (+73) 131(-47). If you add OH dmg, 131+36=167
Frosty Gaze : 58/0.75*1.00=77.33, rounding up to 78. so, (+78) 136(-47). If you add OH dmg, 136+36=172

Again, where is the 'significantly higher evade chain damage'?

You can also read my previous post again.
I didn't say LA50 spec is the king regardless of RR.
I said, "with a bit of exaggeration, 50 LA is the only viable spec on LOW RR for solo SB."
You just can't assume that 50 LA spec on RR4 is overrated based on your tests with you and your friends' RR10 char.

Of course, most of numbers above are results of the calculation, so there can be error or mistakes.
If anyone see any significant error or find a real ingame result that differs from my calculation, plz let me know.
I'm open.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 10:23 PM by Mavella

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:33 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:38 PM
Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:08 PM
50 LA isn't overrated.
You already revealed truth in your statement without noticing.
You describe how hard to deal with rr7+ sins until you are 6+("as a CS SB", and say "You need to get your LA pumped up to 30+".
And then conclude that his spec is fine?

I can say, with a bit of exaggeration, that 50 LA is the only viable spec on low rr for solo SB.
Maybe you can switch to CS when you get rr7+ or rr8 if you want,
But you can't compete NS/Infil with some gimp-NS-version of 44CS 22LA spec on low ranks.

See my previous post. There's more issues here than spec. He's missing a possible 10% mainhand damage with his current spec but makes up for it with significantly higher anytime and evade chain damage. He's also running a proc load out that isn't really effective in sin fights unless he's running toughness 9 + glacial movement + some luck. An early str/con proc with a switch to DD or lifetap in the mainhand is going to be WAY more effective in a short sin fight than a dot proc.

With CS spec he's also getting the benefit of evade bonuses when hamstring and leaper are active. Making inf/ns offhand miss at 25% rate rather than 15% is punishing. Way more punishing for them than it is for SBs. I ran 44cs from rr4 to rr10 where I'm now 46CS because those 2 points did more for my damage than going 41 LA.

Wins/Losses at rr4 vs rr7+ is almost purely down to purge readiness, amount of passives stacked, statistical RR advantage, slopply play by either party. 50LA isn't going to let you start magically beating those other sins unless you get a stun off with their purge down etc which I'd say is the exception rather than the norm.

Every RR10 SB that I've talked to and tested 50LA vs high CS spec agrees that 50LA is pretty underwhelming. I haven't done the testing personally but I can extrapolate that I'll be giving up a little mainhand damage for slightly more offhand damage and what I would consider vastly inferior styles for 1v1 fights especially against sins. 50LA might be better vs visibles and such where their purge is much more likely to be down but I fight way more sins than visibles so I want to maximize my chances vs them.

This is the test I've done myself when i was RR4.

SB dmg test on dummy(-26% resist)
Fully buffed with composition pots
RR4 MH 4.2 / OH 2.4 spd
1. spec CS 44+14, Weap 38+14(comp52), LA 22+14
MH Norm hit : 71(-24) (dmg modifier: 1113)
MH Garrote : (+51) 109(-38)
OH : 26(-9)(99% qual)

2. spec CS 10+14, weap 36+14(comp50), LA 50+14
MH Norm hit : 78(-27) (dmg modifier: 1098)
MH Doublefrost : (+58) 121(-41)
OH : 36(-12)(99% qual)

Yes, I know CS anytime consists of Garrote+Achilles Heel, but unfortunately I can't find AH dmg. Maybe I forgot to write in my excel.
So, I've calculated AH dmg with the growthrate, based on the ratio of the CS spec dmg
Garrote GR:0.74, AH GR:1.03. So 51/0.74*1.03=70.98. I just rounded up to 71.
So AH dmg should be (+71) 123(-43) based on 26% resist.(of course there can be margin of error)

Now lets say you had 2 swings on each spec.
1. CS spec : Garrote+Achilles Heel+2 OH hits
109+123+26+26=284
2. LA spec : 2 Doublefrost hits+2 OH hits
121+121+36+36=314

I don't see any 'significantly higher anytime damage'. In fact, LA anytimer do far more dmg based on calculation.
Moreover, your swing can be missed/blocked/evaded/parried, which means you can't guarantee your Achilles heel dmg.

Now, evade chain. Of course this can't be tested on dummies, so I'll calculate in similar way
(again, remind there can be margin of error because this is just a calcultion, not ingame output)
1. CS growthrate : Hamstring 1.13, Leaper 1.33, Rib seperation 1.32
Hamstring : 51/0.74*1.13=77.87, rounding up to 78. so, (+78) 129(-44). If you add OH dmg, 129+26=155
Leaper : 51/0.74*1.33=91.66, rounding up to 92. so, (+92) 139(-48). If you add OH dmg, 139+26=165
Rib seper : 51/0.74*1.32 =90.97, rounding up to 91. so, (+91) 138(-48). If you add OH dmg, 138+26=164
2. LA growthrate : Comeback 0.94, Frosty Gaze 1.00
Comback : 58/0.75*0.94=72.69, rounding up to 73. so, (+73) 131(-47). If you add OH dmg, 131+36=167
Frosty Gaze : 58/0.75*1.00=77.33, rounding up to 78. so, (+78) 136(-47). If you add OH dmg, 136+36=172

Again, where is the 'significantly higher evade chain damage'?

You can also read my previous post again.
I didn't say LA50 spec is the king regardless of RR.
I said, "with a bit of exaggeration, 50 LA is the only viable spec on LOW RR for solo SB."
You just can't assume that 50 LA spec on RR4 is overrated based on your tests with you and your friends' RR10 char.

Of course, most of numbers above are results of the calculation, so there can be error or mistakes.
If anyone see any significant error or find a real ingame result that differs from my calculation, plz let me know.
I'm open.

I don't think there's anything funky with those calculations but a few notes from my perspective

-When you run comp 50 weapon at RR4 you're essentially costing yourself at least 5-10% damage vs a rr5+ opponent. If you run 52comp then you lose access to lifebane and ASR poison. So we can't have best of both worlds situation here.
-As you RR up Full LA damage is barely going to change while 44CS damage is going to increase substantially both by the +CS skills with RR and with the points you get to dump into LA from respeccing each rank. You're going to get to the point where Garrote is going to do as much damage as Doublefrost with the mainhand and the offhand is only going to lag a few damage behind full LA. AH is just going to make it outpace the damage that much faster. AH and Dblfrost are as likely to be defended against so that point is essentially moot and...
-Doublefrost is going to straight up miss 5% more than both Garrote/AH, if the enemy gets a defensive bonus going a 20% miss rate is no joke.
-FG is a non-factor in many sin fights as stunning especially at high HP can be more of a liability than a boon. I will admit I missed having access to an evade stun until RR9 but managed to live without it. More kills were secured with successfully landing a perf + follow ups than than hoping for an in combat stun that wasn't immediately purged.
-The Hamstring chain defensive bonuses are going to make those hard hitting offhand ns/inf swings miss 10% more which can easily swing a fight in your favor.
-The CS bleeds, albeit minor are going to help bridge some of the damage gap between 50LA and 44CS
-50LA is also a bit more prone to being kited than garrote spam. Even if you use the snare poison, if it gets purged they will have immunity. Once a gap is created, depending on location, the kill is lost. 50LA also relies more on weapon swapping(ease of access to snare and ASR come to mind initially) and I can't imagine EVERY fresh faced RR4 SB has 8 weapons in the bag to be able to reapply everything in the event of a purge or resist.

Ultimately I agree given the scenario you presented 50LA will have a slightly easier time in a straight up anytimer spamming slugfest at RR4 at the cost of initial burst and utility that CS offers. The one area CS cannot hope to compare is of course the AB chain which is situational at best as well as access to an evade stun depending on weapon line. I always fought sins assuming their purge was up to save myself the hassle of reapplying all my poisons/debuff procs and I think most good sins also follow that policy.

Personally, I don't think RR4 SBs should be looking to get into and should not really expect to win any slugfests with rr7+ sins as the cards are stacked quite heavily against them considering how heavily sins scale with RR. Even then I think things like landing higher damage openers, higher to-hit bonuses, and access to defensive bonuses are more likely to tilt RNG and fight in their favor than a few extra damage per swing that is most noticeable when comparing Garrote vs Doublefrost at this RR.

Sat 17 Aug 2019 4:34 AM by Cadebrennus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:17 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 4:19 PM
Just because I disagree over an opinion based on data doesn't make it a bad idea to take advice from me or anybody. It just means I have a difference of opinion. Basically, the reason I advise a slow offhand over a fast offhand is because of the following (and keep in mind I don't have my numbers in front of me so these are approximations from memory)

The average speed from the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib versus the slowest offhand in Alb/Hib led to approximately a +10% difference in DPS gain over time favouring the fastest offhand.

The damage-per-hit difference between the slowest offhand possible in Alb/Hib and the fastest offhand in Alb/Hib was something like 20% favouring the slow offhand

Based on these the damage over time effectiveness still favoured the slow offhand by approximately 10% over time, and by approximately 20% per hit. I haven't tested this on Mid, just Alb/Hib. Feel free to do your own tests, because this is what my tests have shown. Based on this I'm sticking with the slowest offhand I can find on Alb and Hib.

First of all, know that I'm Dutch and Dutch are known to sometimes be extremely blunt to people. That is not my intention (most of the times) but a character-trait sometimes hard to hide

As for your reasoning, it is flawed. You make the (faulty) assumption that somehow a 20% increase on 1 side and a 10% decrease on the other side the "net result" is +10%. This is a common mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless, which I will explain:

Assume these percentages:

* I do 200 DPS and by changing my offhand I do 180 DPS, therefore a 10% decrease, but with this new offhand I do 25 offhand instead of 20, therefore a 25% increase on my offhand damage.

If I add these numbers up, by your logic I get a 15% increase in damage, seeing -10%+25% = +15%. However, the reality is that the 10% decrease was based on a much higher number and therefore counts a lot heavier. The "real" end-result is that I actually lost damage.

I'm going to forgive you the mistake that you can't really compare "single swing"-damage to DPS because that is not very relevant in this discussion.

The other problem is more basic: You can't argue about facts, you can argue about opinions. If the fact is there that a faster offhand yields more DPS that is a fact, e.g. you can't change that fact just because your opinion is different. You could argue you prefer a slower offhand because of looks or "how you like big numbers in the combat-log" and those can be valid opinions to you, but you can't argue that they somehow magically yield more DPS just "because you say so / like them". That is why I call it bad advice, because those are subjective reasons which might apply to some individuals, but not to those who are interested about improving their character and chances to win.

Sorry dude, this isn't something I magically feel in my gut. Another tester ran the exact same test I ran in "The Drunken Ranger's Guide to Drunken Celtic Dual Wielding" and found that for a fast offhand to catch up with and overtake a slow offhand DPS-wise is approximately 20 seconds, uninterrupted. That's all good and fine if you're PVE'ing or beating a door down but it doesn't mean squat if you only get in a solid 1-4 good swings in during actual RvR, which is the norm. You can continue tickling your opponents with a fast offhand, and I'll go with my slow offhand.

Sat 17 Aug 2019 5:43 AM by Mavella

When you rely more on your offhand for overall DPS you're going to suffer more from that higher miss rate(un-styled swings) and passives defenses are going to be more punishing to your overall dps. Swinging faster also is much more likely going to give you a second chance at a reactionary styles further increasing your DPS. Slow offhand is only going to make these problems worse when you eat an ASR and possibly a dex/qui debuff and you're swinging once every 3+ seconds which is going to get you killed especially in a 1v1.

So sure vs a dummy the DPS might be similar but we don't fight dummies in RvR. We fight enemies with ASR and defensive bonuses which are much more punishing when you already swing slowly.

Sat 17 Aug 2019 7:50 AM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 17 Aug 2019 4:34 AM
Sorry dude, this isn't something I magically feel in my gut. Another tester ran the exact same test I ran in "The Drunken Ranger's Guide to Drunken Celtic Dual Wielding" and found that for a fast offhand to catch up with and overtake a slow offhand DPS-wise is approximately 20 seconds, uninterrupted. That's all good and fine if you're PVE'ing or beating a door down but it doesn't mean squat if you only get in a solid 1-4 good swings in during actual RvR, which is the norm. You can continue tickling your opponents with a fast offhand, and I'll go with my slow offhand.

I've done this test too - but my conclusion is different. You say, and I quote:

Cadebrennnus wrote: found that for a fast offhand to catch up with and overtake a slow offhand DPS-wise is approximately 20 seconds, uninterrupted.

You're right that after a certain amount of seconds the fast offhand will overtake the slow offhand, meaning there isn't a point in time after that where the slow offhand is better. What you leave out is that before that certain amount of time there are distinct intervals in time where the fast offhand did more damage too. These are the time-intervals where the fast-offhand setup did it's next swing before the slow-offhand setup did it's next swing.

For my Shadowblade, I did the test. I had 215 QUI, 15% Haste, and tried 2 weapon-setup:

* 4.2 MH / 2.9 OH fastest crafted offhand) -> 130 mainhand / 49 offhand damage on Doublefrost, swing-speed 2.08 seconds (weapon-setup 1)
* 4.2 MH/ 4.0 OH (slowest crafted offhand) -> 130 mainhand / 69 offhand damage on Doublefrost, swing speed 2.40 seconds (weapon-setup 2)

Time	weapon 1 dmg
00.00	179
02.08	358
04.16	537
06.24	716
08.32	895
10.40	1074
12.48	1253
14.56	1432
16.64	1611
18.72	1790

Time	weapon 2 dmg
00.00	199
02.40	398
04.80	597
07.20	796
09.60	995
12.00	1194
14.40	1393
16.80	1592
19.20	1791
21.60	1990

If you draw these step-functions in 1 graph you can see which one is ahead at any given time interval. I've created that graph (based on MY SB) just like that, see https://imgur.com/a/BEdmzRs . Damage is on the Y-Axis, Time on the X-Axis. Where the colored bar below the graphs is white, the slow-setup is doing more damage and where it is colored, the fast setup is doing more damage.

As you can see, the slow offhand dominates when time is <8 seconds, after that the colored area becomes wider than the white area. Obviously this exact time depends on your weapon-setup and class, and this time will be much further ahead for non-LA classes. You could go and say "Hey, as long as my fights last shorter than this time, I should go slow offhand!"

But, that is a wrong assumption too. You also have to account for the odds that the extra damage from the slow-offhand is enough to kill, compared to the extra damage from the 2nd swing from the fast-offhand is enough to kill. It is quite obvious that the odds of killing someone with 20 extra damage from your offhand is much smaller than the odds of killing someone with an extra swing, seeing as the "extra swing" is much more damage than the 20 extra damage.

The easy approach to do that is draw a line through both step-graphs and find at what time they intersect. At that time, the fast-offhand has the highest odds to get the kill. For my shadowblade, that is at t=6 seconds.

I've put up a spreadsheet (in Openoffice / Libreoffice) that you can use to plugin your own numbers, you can download it at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NgX13vRgAtK0SpVpBWPg6gtYmrnggW1o . Simply change the yellow colored cells to your numbers and the graphs will change to your situation. The step-functions aren't as easy on a INF/NS because your swing-speed depends on the chance to swing your offhand. However, you could plug-in your average swing-speed for both scenario's and the smoothed graph will still show you the intersection in time at which point faster offhands are better.

Sat 17 Aug 2019 7:57 AM by Cadebrennus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 17 Aug 2019 7:50 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 17 Aug 2019 4:34 AM
Sorry dude, this isn't something I magically feel in my gut. Another tester ran the exact same test I ran in "The Drunken Ranger's Guide to Drunken Celtic Dual Wielding" and found that for a fast offhand to catch up with and overtake a slow offhand DPS-wise is approximately 20 seconds, uninterrupted. That's all good and fine if you're PVE'ing or beating a door down but it doesn't mean squat if you only get in a solid 1-4 good swings in during actual RvR, which is the norm. You can continue tickling your opponents with a fast offhand, and I'll go with my slow offhand.

I've done this test too - but my conclusion is different. You say, and I quote:

Cadebrennnus wrote: found that for a fast offhand to catch up with and overtake a slow offhand DPS-wise is approximately 20 seconds, uninterrupted.

You're right that after a certain amount of seconds the fast offhand will overtake the slow offhand, meaning there isn't a point in time after that where the slow offhand is better. What you leave out is that before that certain amount of time there are distinct intervals in time where the fast offhand did more damage too. These are the time-intervals where the fast-offhand setup did it's next swing before the slow-offhand setup did it's next swing.

For my Shadowblade, I did the test. I had 215 QUI, 15% Haste, and tried 2 weapon-setup:

* 4.2 MH / 2.9 OH fastest crafted offhand) -> 130 mainhand / 49 offhand damage on Doublefrost, swing-speed 2.08 seconds (weapon-setup 1)
* 4.2 MH/ 4.0 OH (slowest crafted offhand) -> 130 mainhand / 69 offhand damage on Doublefrost, swing speed 2.40 seconds (weapon-setup 2)
Time	weapon 1 dmg
00.00	179
02.08	358
04.16	537
06.24	716
08.32	895
10.40	1074
12.48	1253
14.56	1432
16.64	1611
18.72	1790

Time	weapon 2 dmg
00.00	199
02.40	398
04.80	597
07.20	796
09.60	995
12.00	1194
14.40	1393
16.80	1592
19.20	1791
21.60	1990
If you draw these step-functions in 1 graph you can see which one is ahead at any given time interval. I've created that graph (based on MY SB) just like that, see https://imgur.com/a/BEdmzRs . Damage is on the Y-Axis, Time on the X-Axis. Where the colored bar below the graphs is white, the slow-setup is doing more damage and where it is colored, the fast setup is doing more damage.

As you can see, the slow offhand dominates when time is <8 seconds, after that the colored area becomes wider than the white area. Obviously this exact time depends on your weapon-setup and class, and this time will be much further ahead for non-LA classes. You could go and say "Hey, as long as my fights last shorter than this time, I should go slow offhand!"

But, that is a wrong assumption too. You also have to account for the odds that the extra damage from the slow-offhand is enough to kill, compared to the extra damage from the 2nd swing from the fast-offhand is enough to kill. It is quite obvious that the odds of killing someone with 20 extra damage from your offhand is much smaller than the odds of killing someone with an extra swing, seeing as the "extra swing" is much more damage than the 20 extra damage.

The easy approach to do that is draw a line through both step-graphs and find at what time they intersect. At that time, the fast-offhand has the highest odds to get the kill. For my shadowblade, that is at t=6 seconds.

I've put up a spreadsheet (in Openoffice / Libreoffice) that you can use to plugin your own numbers, you can download it at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NgX13vRgAtK0SpVpBWPg6gtYmrnggW1o . Simply change the yellow colored cells to your numbers and the graphs will change to your situation. The step-functions aren't as easy on a INF/NS because your swing-speed depends on the chance to swing your offhand. However, you could plug-in your average swing-speed for both scenario's and the smoothed graph will still show you the intersection in time at which point faster offhands are better.

Pretty sweet setup there. Your results are solid but will differ from an Alb/Hib setup because of the way that LA differs from CD/DW. I suspect that's why you see the overlap at approximately 6 seconds. Honestly I expected it much sooner for LA, so your results surprised me that it took that long. Perhaps because you're using an offhand weapon speed they simply doesn't exist in Alb/Hib? In all, some pretty cool stuff. I'll have to check out that last link and play with the numbers when I have more time. Thanks for doing this.

Sat 17 Aug 2019 12:30 PM by castle89

2flare wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:32 PM
Thankyou everyone. I'm shelving the SB.

I already spent Alot of hours leveling up a farmer and countless hours farming for my temp, MP weapons,armor etc.
I'm Not going to spend another minute more to get to RR8 just so I can not lose 7-8/10 of my fights against sins...

it's a game from another era, as you well know. understandable.

Only the crazies (said in a good way) that can deal with crap like that can keep playing titles like this.