Questionable Damage - Phoenix Freeshard

I couldn't find anywhere else to post this proof of a serious problem with damage calculation. This was from RvR in NF.

This character made 50 yesterday. This character has frequently received extreme damage like this while farming gear in PoC as well as RvR. My question is: is this the new normal, or is this a bug? I initially thought it was a bug, but phoenix does so many changes that I cannot be sure now. The first poison (not resisted) was major enervating poison. The second poison (resisted) was disease. The damage received was the first following the poisoning. Yes, this new 50 is not temped, but the armor was there and resists should have factored.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:42 PM by

gruenesschaf

You have 9 crush resist with crush vulnerable armor type, effectively -1 crush resist and 90 AF armor and you're wondering about the 2h damage?

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:52 PM by Boltman

Not to mention that your target was a 6L7 Champion.... You are lucky you weren't debuffed all to hell when it happened too... Unless you didn't show that part in the chat logs.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:22 PM by Expfighter

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:42 PM
You have 9 crush resist with crush vulnerable armor type, effectively -1 crush resist and 90 AF armor and you're wondering about the 2h damage?

Lol the lvl 45 armor itself would allow this damage

Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:23 PM by keen

He is puzzled why one hit does 120dmg, the other above 400

Thu 15 Aug 2019 3:29 PM by Boltman

From reading that, the first, lower damage would be slam, the second the Large weapon followup.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:48 PM by Iqupl

Maybe I have the wrong formula. Here is what I figured.

Effective AF =
Total AF * Quality * (1 + (absorb * quality))

(1 + (0.10 * 0.96)) = 1.096
507 * 0.96 * 1.096 = 533.44512

Actual Damage =
WeapDmgCap * Delay * Quality * Condition * (WeapSkill / target’s effective AF)

Assuming very charitable weaponskill of 1900
(1900 / 533.44512) = 3.56175
16.2 * WeapSpd * 1.00 * 1.00 * 3.56175 = 57.70035 * WeapSpd

Adding the 1% damage from lack of resistance
57.70035 * 1.01 = 58.27735 * WeapSpd
WeapSpd = 433 / 58.27735
WeapSpd = 7.42999 ???

More than likely the opponent had ~1750 weaponskill with a weapon that was not 100% quality and 100% condition. I do not know the 2h weapon bonus given to champions, and we have no clue what style was used. The damage appears excessive. I hope someone who responded would show their math to help me understand how phoenix calculates damage. Also, do not forget the minus 91 strength from the first poison that weakened the opponent. That alone would make a weaponskill of 1900 impossible.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 7:03 PM by Roto23

Just get yourself tempted

Thu 15 Aug 2019 8:52 PM by Iqupl

@Roto23 - See, that's not an acceptable answer. I don't like it, because it puts the fault on players for exposing a problem, if there is a problem. The formula works the same for every combination of numbers. Putting the correct information out there is important. Acknowledging code faults is important. There was no other reason to make this thread except for these purposes.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 9:36 PM by Iqupl

Attached is another ss of a different fight result. This time it is the quest chain mob in SI. The mob fights with a sword. Again, we see the peculiar small bonus to hit as if it was crush damage gaining 1% {10% leather vulnerability - 9% crush resist}. However, the first hit was substantially higher with a bonus greater than 1%. I keep seeing this in PvE and RvR; oddly high damage with hard to discern calculation.
[attachment=0]QuestionableDamage2.jpg[/attachment]
Remember too, that the first example given does not show a damage type. Everyone is assuming the damage type due to the class of the opponent, and the resists shown. Here we see a similar result from a sword wielding demon.

EDIT: I should also add that all armor has been raised to level cap, so 100 or 102.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:16 PM by Iqupl

Here is a third proof - ranger on the keep at Bledmeer Faste. My infiltrator and another stealther both died to it. The ranger resisted the major enervate poison and infectious poison. The ranger was orange con to me. My infiltrator had combined forces buffs on, but it will not show in this image due to being after death.
[attachment=0]QuestionableDamage3.jpg[/attachment]
EDIT: Notice in the image that the damage oddly appears to be the same type seen in the prior two .jpg images.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:28 PM by bm01

I don't understand the problem. That Champion hits me for around 400 if we don't take resistances into account. This is on chain mail, 51 AF 99%/100% qual. You got hit for a little more because you have lower AF and Abs than me. End of the story.

More than likely the opponent had ~1750 weaponskill with a weapon that was not 100% quality and 100% condition. I do not know the 2h weapon bonus given to champions, and we have no clue what style was used. The damage appears excessive. I hope someone who responded would show their math to help me understand how phoenix calculates damage. Also, do not forget the minus 91 strength from the first poison that weakened the opponent. That alone would make a weaponskill of 1900 impossible.

On my Thane, the 2H bonus seems to be around 50% of non-styled / base damage. It's probably the same for Champion but who knows.
The style he used was Frontal Assault. Good GR + Snare (as shown on your screenshot).
Also I'm pretty sure a mobs weapon is just a model, they can do Crush damage even with a sword. And based on your screenshot I guess Rangers do crush damage, for some reason.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 11:11 PM by Pops999

The problem is, as an assassin, this shouldn't be allowed. Please nerf.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:14 AM by Turano

Iqupl wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:16 PM
Here is a third proof - ranger on the keep at Bledmeer Faste. My infiltrator and another stealther both died to it. The ranger resisted the major enervate poison and infectious poison. The ranger was orange con to me. My infiltrator had combined forces buffs on, but it will not show in this image due to being after death.
QuestionableDamage3.jpg
EDIT: Notice in the image that the damage oddly appears to be the same type seen in the prior two .jpg images.

The guards fire crush damage arrows at you. Your armor has 10% malus on that and you only have 9% crush resi yourself. That's why you see xxx(+x) damage numbers. Nothing questionable about it, just get better gear

Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:28 AM by

gruenesschaf

Iqupl wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:48 PM
Maybe I have the wrong formula. Here is what I figured.

Effective AF =
Total AF * Quality * (1 + (absorb * quality))

(1 + (0.10 * 0.96)) = 1.096
507 * 0.96 * 1.096 = 533.44512

Actual Damage =
WeapDmgCap * Delay * Quality * Condition * (WeapSkill / target’s effective AF)

Assuming very charitable weaponskill of 1900
(1900 / 533.44512) = 3.56175
16.2 * WeapSpd * 1.00 * 1.00 * 3.56175 = 57.70035 * WeapSpd

Adding the 1% damage from lack of resistance
57.70035 * 1.01 = 58.27735 * WeapSpd
WeapSpd = 433 / 58.27735
WeapSpd = 7.42999 ???

More than likely the opponent had ~1750 weaponskill with a weapon that was not 100% quality and 100% condition. I do not know the 2h weapon bonus given to champions, and we have no clue what style was used. The damage appears excessive. I hope someone who responded would show their math to help me understand how phoenix calculates damage. Also, do not forget the minus 91 strength from the first poison that weakened the opponent. That alone would make a weaponskill of 1900 impossible.

This is a quite old approximating formula. It should be quite obvious that effective AF can't be taken into account at all as depending on what you wear in a given slot heavily affects the damage. Further you have been hit by frontal assault and not an unstyled attack.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage is what we use with the inherent af being 45 at level 50 instead of 20 (enemy armor 45 + instead of enemy armor 20 +) and variance always being 25 and styles using the old growth rate stuff as the proper style values are not available for the old styles.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:34 AM by Sepplord

not saying this is a bug, it seems not to be according to your explanations...

but can someone ELI5 to me, how the ranger can hit him so differently? It seems they are in melee, and it is even the same armor part being hit once for 2xx dmg and once for twice as much.
Sorry if i am missing something obvious, i just woke up

Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:39 AM by Turano

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:34 AM
not saying this is a bug, it seems not to be according to your explanations...

but can someone ELI5 to me, how the ranger can hit him so differently? It seems they are in melee, and it is even the same armor part being hit once for 2xx dmg and once for twice as much.
Sorry if i am missing something obvious, i just woke up

It is most likely another ranger. Since they only need line of sight once and then can pepper you with arrows all day long you look like a pin cushin pretty fast near or inside a keep

Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:41 AM by Sepplord

Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:39 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 6:34 AM
not saying this is a bug, it seems not to be according to your explanations...

but can someone ELI5 to me, how the ranger can hit him so differently? It seems they are in melee, and it is even the same armor part being hit once for 2xx dmg and once for twice as much.
Sorry if i am missing something obvious, i just woke up
It is most likely another ranger. Since they only need line of sight once and then can pepper you with arrows all day long you look like a pin cushin pretty fast near or inside a keep

ohh...yeah, that's an easy and obvious answer i was missing ^^

thanks

Fri 16 Aug 2019 9:57 PM by Iqupl

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:28 AM
...
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage is what we use with the inherent af being 45 at level 50 instead of 20 (enemy armor 45 + instead of enemy armor 20 +) and variance always being 25 and styles using the old growth rate stuff as the proper style values are not available for the old styles.

Thank you for this link and brief explanation. I will look at it closer after this weekend. Like many others, some of my expectation comes from playing DAoC on other servers, from original Mythic live to EA live to private. Sometimes certain game elements have been outrageous, and they were changed later. I have been noticing a recent change in damage that seems excessive, so this thread was made to address this issue for what appeared to be an unintended patch effect.

I am done with this thread, since the explanation was given, and nothing was seen to be out of the norm. The answer was that this is indeed the new normal. That is all I wanted to know. I appreciate the official response.

I just want to leave with this last note in people's mind. Congratulations to Popya the ranger. I think you got the right spec and temp. Keep up the good work!
[attachment=0]QuestionableDamage4.jpg[/attachment]

Sun 18 Aug 2019 10:35 PM by Auranyte

Iqupl wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 9:57 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 5:28 AM
...
https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage is what we use with the inherent af being 45 at level 50 instead of 20 (enemy armor 45 + instead of enemy armor 20 +) and variance always being 25 and styles using the old growth rate stuff as the proper style values are not available for the old styles.
Thank you for this link and brief explanation. I will look at it closer after this weekend. Like many others, some of my expectation comes from playing DAoC on other servers, from original Mythic live to EA live to private. Sometimes certain game elements have been outrageous, and they were changed later. I have been noticing a recent change in damage that seems excessive, so this thread was made to address this issue for what appeared to be an unintended patch effect.

I am done with this thread, since the explanation was given, and nothing was seen to be out of the norm. The answer was that this is indeed the new normal. That is all I wanted to know. I appreciate the official response.

I just want to leave with this last note in people's mind. Congratulations to Popya the ranger. I think you got the right spec and temp. Keep up the good work!
QuestionableDamage4.jpg

He got his critshot off on you, and it worked because you were stunned. (Think about scouts doing the slam+critshot combo) Had you not gotten stunned it would have been normal bow shot damage.