Question about SM intercept...

I played an SM on live from SI up until after the necro patch. That intercept rate it way too high.
It seems to be around 90%. Sms where always able to get a cast or two off while getting beat on, but i just watched a dark sm kill a BM and a NS without MOC and not get interrupted once.
Also the pet could never take that kind of abuse. Before the pet patch on live my pet usually died before I did, but it wasn't nearly as tough. This thing acts like the current live warrior pet, but with even better intercept.

I know that this is a custom server.
I'm just wondering if this is intended or just overlooked?

Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM by Ashok

Intercept rate is 70-75% at the moment - intended.

However, we're in the process of reviewing it and gathering data.
If you have some hard data, like old videos, old forum posts with tests etc. feel free to share it, as we can't just go "by the feeling".

Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:24 AM by Niget

i dont have old videos.
what i did find is in live patch 1.22b the spirit warriors intercept rate was upped to 75% from 60%.

Looking through post count i found where some one tested all pets intercept rates. largest being 50%.
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?125717-Best-Pet-to-use-in-RvR

from ING boards in 2005, there is a post stating that sm pets have been tested and are hard capped at 50%
https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-buffed-spiritmaster-pets-and-thier-90-or-better-intercept-rate.250444221/

also in live patch 1.25 spirit warriors intercept rates were dropped from 75% back to 60% and radius was reduced to 125 units.
75% was just too much.

I hope this helps a bit

Thu 15 Aug 2019 1:44 AM by Campjr

Just going to leave this right here...there is no way this is working as intended. SM's running around everywhere solo with zero concerns for death.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/570987140436066304/611201651759644672/unknown.png

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:28 AM by vxr

Ashok wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Intercept rate is 70-75% at the moment - intended.

However, we're in the process of reviewing it and gathering data.
If you have some hard data, like old videos, old forum posts with tests etc. feel free to share it, as we can't just go "by the feeling".

I guess it might be a good time to retire. Was fun!
And no you cant have my stuff!

@Devs, you should do whatever you think is best for balance and server health, but please take a look at my reply regarding this subject in a previous thread:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10629&start=10
Thanks

Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:07 AM by Aph

I think Bombzz has a valid point. There is no issue here other than those stealthers that try and fight bombzz 1v1 in df. This is like the guys who wanted name changes for the few rr12 people. There is alot more urgent matters than this: Creating new events; banhammer; updating and evaluating on gvg command, new solo & small man areas; I would even consider a dev playing the actual game as more important than touching this 'issue'.

I have an issue of my own that was completely overlooked and actually changed the gameplay alot since switch to NF:
Npcs in frontiers have been altered when the server switched to NF. Abilities are removed and damage lowered (in most cases).
This is probably something they forgot or didn't notice during the major switch; and its awaiting attention.

If this issue was touching solo players dying in a rvr zone there would be 29 pages of tears on the forums.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:31 AM by kiectred

vxr wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:28 AM
Ashok wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Intercept rate is 70-75% at the moment - intended.

However, we're in the process of reviewing it and gathering data.
If you have some hard data, like old videos, old forum posts with tests etc. feel free to share it, as we can't just go "by the feeling".

I guess it might be a good time to retire. Was fun!
And no you cant have my stuff!

@Devs, you should do whatever you think is best for balance and server health, but please take a look at my reply regarding this subject in a previous thread:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10629&start=10
Thanks

A lot of the points you brought up in the previous thread applied to friars and friar reflex attack, and it still got nerfed. I defended the ability's limited uses, underutilization of the class, etc the same way you defend intercept and SMs. But I acknowledged some reasonable nerf wouldn't be bad, and in my opinion that's what we got. In the case of intercept, as long as it didn't go overboard I don't see how a nerf would destroy the class (for example if the rate went from 70-75% to 60%, and there is precedent for this already). You can't really say it has extremely limited utility for the class and simultaneously say "what will the class have left if you nerf this?".

All that said I've fought an SM exactly once (it was you

) and I think I would stand a decent chance if I used a faster staff and you didn't use MoC. As is, I go with a really slow staff and that just gave you more chances to cast between intercepts. When we fought I had no idea the intercept rate was so high.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 11:11 AM by vxr

kiectred wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:31 AM
vxr wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:28 AM
Ashok wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Intercept rate is 70-75% at the moment - intended.

However, we're in the process of reviewing it and gathering data.
If you have some hard data, like old videos, old forum posts with tests etc. feel free to share it, as we can't just go "by the feeling".

I guess it might be a good time to retire. Was fun!
And no you cant have my stuff!

@Devs, you should do whatever you think is best for balance and server health, but please take a look at my reply regarding this subject in a previous thread:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10629&start=10
Thanks

A lot of the points you brought up in the previous thread applied to friars and friar reflex attack, and it still got nerfed. I defended the ability's limited uses, underutilization of the class, etc the same way you defend intercept and SMs. But I acknowledged some reasonable nerf wouldn't be bad, and in my opinion that's what we got. In the case of intercept, as long as it didn't go overboard I don't see how a nerf would destroy the class (for example if the rate went from 70-75% to 60%, and there is precedent for this already). You can't really say it has extremely limited utility for the class and simultaneously say "what will the class have left if you nerf this?".

All that said I've fought an SM exactly once (it was you ) and I think I would stand a decent chance if I used a faster staff and you didn't use MoC. As is, I go with a really slow staff and that just gave you more chances to cast between intercepts. When we fought I had no idea the intercept rate was so high.

My comments around an intercept nerf was to the other comments in that thread. Like one person suggested intercept be on a 30 second cool down. I mean if that's what they go with might as well just remove it. A 5-10% nerf might be reasonable, but anything reasonable and your still going to have those that complain about it still complain.

Faster staff is 100% the way to go vs SM. You want to swing as fast as possible.

Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:00 PM by kiectred

vxr wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 11:11 AM
kiectred wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 10:31 AM
vxr wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 2:28 AM
I guess it might be a good time to retire. Was fun!
And no you cant have my stuff!

@Devs, you should do whatever you think is best for balance and server health, but please take a look at my reply regarding this subject in a previous thread:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10629&start=10
Thanks

A lot of the points you brought up in the previous thread applied to friars and friar reflex attack, and it still got nerfed. I defended the ability's limited uses, underutilization of the class, etc the same way you defend intercept and SMs. But I acknowledged some reasonable nerf wouldn't be bad, and in my opinion that's what we got. In the case of intercept, as long as it didn't go overboard I don't see how a nerf would destroy the class (for example if the rate went from 70-75% to 60%, and there is precedent for this already). You can't really say it has extremely limited utility for the class and simultaneously say "what will the class have left if you nerf this?".

All that said I've fought an SM exactly once (it was you ) and I think I would stand a decent chance if I used a faster staff and you didn't use MoC. As is, I go with a really slow staff and that just gave you more chances to cast between intercepts. When we fought I had no idea the intercept rate was so high.

My comments around an intercept nerf was to the other comments in that thread. Like one person suggested intercept be on a 30 second cool down. I mean if that's what they go with might as well just remove it. A 5-10% nerf might be reasonable, but anything reasonable and your still going to have those that complain about it still complain.

Faster staff is 100% the way to go vs SM. You want to swing as fast as possible.

Ah I missed what others were suggesting as a nerf that thread, only skimmed parts of it. 100% agreed a 30 second cooldown would be absolutely ridiculous. I think the devs are smart enough to know that's really excessive.

We'll see. I basically never advocate nerfs, so my solution is to just avoid

I'd like to give it a shot with my fast staff just to see but we rarely cross paths anyhow and I'm content with that

Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:40 PM by Ceen

Also intercept should lead to hitting for almost cap damage on the one intercepting. Here intercept does nothing damage wise.

Fri 16 Aug 2019 7:03 AM by Turano

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:40 PM
Also intercept should lead to hitting for almost cap damage on the one intercepting. Here intercept does nothing damage wise.

That is it pretty much. The intercept chance may be high but the pet not taking any meaningful damage in the process so you would eventuelly kill it is bejond annoying.
Havn't fought a sm in quite a while but if I remember correctly the pet even keeps intercepting when stunned. Please correct me if I'm wrong here but that should just not be

Fri 16 Aug 2019 12:25 PM by Sleepwell

Ashok wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Intercept rate is 70-75% at the moment - intended.

However, we're in the process of reviewing it and gathering data.
If you have some hard data, like old videos, old forum posts with tests etc. feel free to share it, as we can't just go "by the feeling".

I think Ashok's comments work for about 90% of the issues brought up on this forum.

I don't play an sm, but i can't defend or condemn anyones feeling either. I've been mistaken in my recollection on several things that i "remembered" from my glory days in DAoC some 15 years ago. It's difficult to dig up some of this stuff, but saying its so, doesnt make it so.

If i take peoples word when they say it shouldn't be like this, then yeah, i would agree, a change is in order. In the same breath if people would have taken my word about my mistakes, then incorrect changes would have been made.

If they're reviwing data, provide more data (message to everyone who is concerned with the current setup). Providing that data will encourage escalation of the changes that you might want.

Sun 18 Aug 2019 6:06 AM by Niget

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 12:25 PM
Ashok wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Intercept rate is 70-75% at the moment - intended.

However, we're in the process of reviewing it and gathering data.
If you have some hard data, like old videos, old forum posts with tests etc. feel free to share it, as we can't just go "by the feeling".

I think Ashok's comments work for about 90% of the issues brought up on this forum.

I don't play an sm, but i can't defend or condemn anyones feeling either. I've been mistaken in my recollection on several things that i "remembered" from my glory days in DAoC some 15 years ago. It's difficult to dig up some of this stuff, but saying its so, doesnt make it so.

If i take peoples word when they say it shouldn't be like this, then yeah, i would agree, a change is in order. In the same breath if people would have taken my word about my mistakes, then incorrect changes would have been made.

If they're reviwing data, provide more data (message to everyone who is concerned with the current setup). Providing that data will encourage escalation of the changes that you might want.

This data was well known fact in the glory days.
So finding testing data from then is nearly impossible. I posted a few forum posts I found.
They match closely with what I remember.
I think people are just agreeing more or less.
I'm rolling one because they are one of my favorite classes and have always been strong! Just a little over the top now!
50% was hard intercept rate.
It's hard to tell without toas and over caps but I know my pet took a bunch more damage. (Can't find anything about that, seems it wasn't tested)
But intercept is the big problem. The sm did required cc, or moc to handle a dual wielder in its face 90% of the time. (Counting pet stuns as cc)
That is really not the case now.

Sun 18 Aug 2019 6:45 AM by jelzinga_EU

Niget wrote: ↑
Sun 18 Aug 2019 6:06 AM
Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 16 Aug 2019 12:25 PM
Ashok wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM
Intercept rate is 70-75% at the moment - intended.

However, we're in the process of reviewing it and gathering data.
If you have some hard data, like old videos, old forum posts with tests etc. feel free to share it, as we can't just go "by the feeling".

I think Ashok's comments work for about 90% of the issues brought up on this forum.

I don't play an sm, but i can't defend or condemn anyones feeling either. I've been mistaken in my recollection on several things that i "remembered" from my glory days in DAoC some 15 years ago. It's difficult to dig up some of this stuff, but saying its so, doesnt make it so.

If i take peoples word when they say it shouldn't be like this, then yeah, i would agree, a change is in order. In the same breath if people would have taken my word about my mistakes, then incorrect changes would have been made.

If they're reviwing data, provide more data (message to everyone who is concerned with the current setup). Providing that data will encourage escalation of the changes that you might want.

This data was well known fact in the glory days.
So finding testing data from then is nearly impossible. I posted a few forum posts I found.
They match closely with what I remember.
I think people are just agreeing more or less.
I'm rolling one because they are one of my favorite classes and have always been strong! Just a little over the top now!
50% was hard intercept rate.
It's hard to tell without toas and over caps but I know my pet took a bunch more damage. (Can't find anything about that, seems it wasn't tested)
But intercept is the big problem. The sm did required cc, or moc to handle a dual wielder in its face 90% of the time. (Counting pet stuns as cc)
That is really not the case now.

I remember years ago, when the servers on Europe where hosted by GOA I performed a test on SM on their test-servers (I had access being E&E back then).

I found the original thread I made back in the days (2005)
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/spiritmaster-pet-intercept-some-testing.173327/

Long story short, the original test-data is obviously no longer there, but the results are still there in the thread:

Against shaman (single-wield / 691 WS) : 79.1% intercept-rate - 148/187
Against zerk (dual-wield/some 2H / 1237 WS): 73.9% intercept-rate 515/697

Sun 18 Aug 2019 7:10 AM by

gruenesschaf

The thing that is definitely wrong about sm intercept is that the pet only takes 1/3rd of the damage. On live right now the pet takes exactly the same damage when it intercepts or when it is attacked directly, as I don't think that was changed, that's what we're going to go with. However, we'll reduce the melee damage taken by the sm pet slightly before doing that, the end result should be the pet taking about 2.5x the damage it takes now.

Sun 18 Aug 2019 10:03 PM by Horus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 18 Aug 2019 7:10 AM
The thing that is definitely wrong about sm intercept is that the pet only takes 1/3rd of the damage. On live right now the pet takes exactly the same damage when it intercepts or when it is attacked directly, as I don't think that was changed, that's what we're going to go with. However, we'll reduce the melee damage taken by the sm pet slightly before doing that, the end result should be the pet taking about 2.5x the damage it takes now.

Yea I was gonna say...

Regular shots hit lev 50s at around 350 unless really armored. Against a blue spirit champion they hit for 175...that is like abomination numbers. Damn things are indestructible.

Thu 22 Aug 2019 7:39 AM by Lillebror

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 18 Aug 2019 7:10 AM
The thing that is definitely wrong about sm intercept is that the pet only takes 1/3rd of the damage. On live right now the pet takes exactly the same damage when it intercepts or when it is attacked directly, as I don't think that was changed, that's what we're going to go with. However, we'll reduce the melee damage taken by the sm pet slightly before doing that, the end result should be the pet taking about 2.5x the damage it takes now.

Is this in place now?