I guess that's exactly the point of this thread. If it is intended that NS/rangers get the reduced grothrates of CD styles while Infils/SB's get Merc/Berzerker grothrates for DW/LA.
Turano wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 10:13 AMBut what does your "that really only touches rangers and rangers are strong enough imo" exactly contribute to the question?
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 10:52 AMTurano wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 10:13 AMBut what does your "that really only touches rangers and rangers are strong enough imo" exactly contribute to the question?
It is probably a justification why the Side-chain is adjusted on NS/Ranger, e.g. they're strong enough so they don't need the higher GR's.
And truth be told - if you see the utility on CD it would be pretty unfair to give them the increased GR. If you add the GR back to NS/Ranger then SB want utility in LA too (side-stun, back-snare)
I don't think many NS will consider CD over CS, even with the boosted GR's - so the change would realistically be only a buff to Ranger, and I'm quite sure they do not need buffs in their melee.
inoeth wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 11:47 AMalso im pretty sure that there are differences on live aswell.
on live SB does not have the dd proc on aurora borealis, although im not sure if they have here
Estat wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 7:04 PMIs there any real evidence that growth rates are different between CD styles for BM and CD styles for NS/Ranger? I dont play hib so i cant check myself ingame.
Moid wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:49 PMThe dumbest aspect of the balance equation is, the dopey developers here look at the number of people playing a class to determine which classes get buffed or nerfed. That only appears to apply when the class isn’t a Hib class though.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:16 PMThe main issue with CD is that the GRs are so crappy that yes, Hibs generally rely on the base styles for actual DPS and CD for the utility. This doesn't seem like a problem until you realize that most Hib players are speccing low CD and high base weapon, leaving their offhand % trailing LA and DW significantly. This leaves Hib dual wielders still behind the power curve in terms of damage. Regarding the utility issue, big deal. The stun isn't an insta-win (maybe in the right hands though) but what has been proven in the Scout threads is that stuns are insignificant. I don't necessarily believe that but the posters in the Scout threads believe it. Basically, the same people that complain that Slam (9 sec anytime) ISN'T overpowered due to Purge are also complaining that a POSITIONAL stun is overpowered.
Seriously, at this point either shut the hell up in general while admitting you only want one class to be on top, or Just accept that there is a form of balance that exists without the "identical classes" approach to balance that exist on nominally PvP games like WoW and ESO that, let's face it, suck for the discerning PvP MMO gamer.
Kemoauc wrote: ↑Thu 1 Aug 2019 6:31 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:16 PMThe main issue with CD is that the GRs are so crappy that yes, Hibs generally rely on the base styles for actual DPS and CD for the utility. This doesn't seem like a problem until you realize that most Hib players are speccing low CD and high base weapon, leaving their offhand % trailing LA and DW significantly. This leaves Hib dual wielders still behind the power curve in terms of damage. Regarding the utility issue, big deal. The stun isn't an insta-win (maybe in the right hands though) but what has been proven in the Scout threads is that stuns are insignificant. I don't necessarily believe that but the posters in the Scout threads believe it. Basically, the same people that complain that Slam (9 sec anytime) ISN'T overpowered due to Purge are also complaining that a POSITIONAL stun is overpowered.
Seriously, at this point either shut the hell up in general while admitting you only want one class to be on top, or Just accept that there is a form of balance that exists without the "identical classes" approach to balance that exist on nominally PvP games like WoW and ESO that, let's face it, suck for the discerning PvP MMO gamer.
A sidestun is basically an anytimer as well.
The differences between slam and the CD sidestun are:
1. You get it in the line that also gives you damage
2. A 4 or 5 sec style is more valuable in 1vs1 situations because you can almost always use it multiple times per fight. Which makes the opponents purge worse.
I'm not complaining about CD but pointing out why it is good.
I don't have an opinion on the GR discussion
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Thu 1 Aug 2019 8:04 AMKemoauc wrote: ↑Thu 1 Aug 2019 6:31 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:16 PMThe main issue with CD is that the GRs are so crappy that yes, Hibs generally rely on the base styles for actual DPS and CD for the utility. This doesn't seem like a problem until you realize that most Hib players are speccing low CD and high base weapon, leaving their offhand % trailing LA and DW significantly. This leaves Hib dual wielders still behind the power curve in terms of damage. Regarding the utility issue, big deal. The stun isn't an insta-win (maybe in the right hands though) but what has been proven in the Scout threads is that stuns are insignificant. I don't necessarily believe that but the posters in the Scout threads believe it. Basically, the same people that complain that Slam (9 sec anytime) ISN'T overpowered due to Purge are also complaining that a POSITIONAL stun is overpowered.
Seriously, at this point either shut the hell up in general while admitting you only want one class to be on top, or Just accept that there is a form of balance that exists without the "identical classes" approach to balance that exist on nominally PvP games like WoW and ESO that, let's face it, suck for the discerning PvP MMO gamer.
A sidestun is basically an anytimer as well.
The differences between slam and the CD sidestun are:
1. You get it in the line that also gives you damage
2. A 4 or 5 sec style is more valuable in 1vs1 situations because you can almost always use it multiple times per fight. Which makes the opponents purge worse.
I'm not complaining about CD but pointing out why it is good.
I don't have an opinion on the GR discussion
Sure CD is good, but it's not great. Honestly my favourite thing about the CD line is that there's a rear snare in the line.
Speaking as someone who played one of the first Slam Mercs on live and continued for a long time before going to a Hib dual wielder, there simply is no substitute for an anytime style vs a positional style. The anytime wins hands down every time.
I think you missed my point though in noting that because CD is only specced for utility and not damage the actual damage output that Hib dual wielders end up with is much lower than their Mid and Alb counterparts.
Sorry I don’t make claims without evidence. But you go ahead and keep on dismissing claims about evidence, I know you will.Isavyr wrote: ↑Thu 1 Aug 2019 5:14 AMMoid wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:49 PMThe dumbest aspect of the balance equation is, the dopey developers here look at the number of people playing a class to determine which classes get buffed or nerfed. That only appears to apply when the class isn’t a Hib class though.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑Mon 24 Jun 2019 4:58 AMNot trying to say you're wrong as it's a personal opinion / perception, however each change there has a perfectly reasonable and even positive intention behind it:Moid wrote: ↑Mon 24 Jun 2019 3:11 AMWhat happened in my case is you guys pissed me off with enough changes that I decided I was tired of you and your server. It all began with the change to the RvR task system granting credit regardless of which realm you’re in (end result - Emain becomes RvR central again). Then the Friar buffs pissed me off because you buffed a goddamn class due to the people playing the realm refusing to play the class and that’s just as stupid as it gets.
...
Task change was to promote not only zerg play but instead give people who want to do small man / 8v8 the reasonable option to go somewhere else without feeling they miss out on the task rps
Buffing an underplayed class that, considering the alternatives / available group spots, at least appeared to be underperforming, if that's not a reason to buff a class then what is?
...
Moid wrote: ↑Mon 24 Jun 2019 3:11 AMWhat happened in my case is you guys pissed me off with enough changes that I decided I was tired of you and your server. It all began with the change to the RvR task system granting credit regardless of which realm you’re in (end result - Emain becomes RvR central again).
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑Mon 24 Jun 2019 4:58 AMBuffing an underplayed class that, considering the alternatives / available group spots, at least appeared to be underperforming, if that's not a reason to buff a class then what is?
Kemoauc wrote: ↑Thu 1 Aug 2019 6:31 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:16 PMThe main issue with CD is that the GRs are so crappy that yes, Hibs generally rely on the base styles for actual DPS and CD for the utility. This doesn't seem like a problem until you realize that most Hib players are speccing low CD and high base weapon, leaving their offhand % trailing LA and DW significantly. This leaves Hib dual wielders still behind the power curve in terms of damage. Regarding the utility issue, big deal. The stun isn't an insta-win (maybe in the right hands though) but what has been proven in the Scout threads is that stuns are insignificant. I don't necessarily believe that but the posters in the Scout threads believe it. Basically, the same people that complain that Slam (9 sec anytime) ISN'T overpowered due to Purge are also complaining that a POSITIONAL stun is overpowered.
Seriously, at this point either shut the hell up in general while admitting you only want one class to be on top, or Just accept that there is a form of balance that exists without the "identical classes" approach to balance that exist on nominally PvP games like WoW and ESO that, let's face it, suck for the discerning PvP MMO gamer.
A sidestun is basically an anytimer as well.
The differences between slam and the CD sidestun are:
1. You get it in the line that also gives you damage
2. A 4 or 5 sec style is more valuable in 1vs1 situations because you can almost always use it multiple times per fight. Which makes the opponents purge worse.
I'm not complaining about CD but pointing out why it is good.
I don't have an opinion on the GR discussion
Kemoauc wrote: ↑Thu 8 Aug 2019 7:03 PMI don't because my positional styles don't really offer anything special (snares only). It would be slightly more damage due to higher growthrates but I would likely fail some of the sidestyles and would probably lose that dmg that I gain again. Swapping s/s <-> 2hand between styles make sidestrafing slightly harder too because you want to queue an anytimer with your sidestyle in case you miss the strafe timing or get snared etc. which means that I would have to swap earlier i.e. before the attack recovery is over to make use of the stylequeue which, in turn, would mean I have to spend more time without block. At the moment I can chose to wait with my attack until my opponents attack came through and get a chance to block it.
I actually tried to go dual 2hand damage type spec without shield for a few days (slash + crush 2handed only) and I could land my sidestun fairly reliably. It was a nice damage boost against everything slash is weak against but in the end I changed back because the stun is too long (everyone has purge) and in a chain which makes it too complicated in 1vsx. I also lost quite some defense and utility for it: numb is just a great style for example. In the case of pala I have so many points that I don't really sacrifice anything for slam though which is not the case for all classes.
Freedomcall wrote: ↑Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:22 PMKemoauc wrote: ↑Thu 8 Aug 2019 7:03 PMI don't because my positional styles don't really offer anything special (snares only). It would be slightly more damage due to higher growthrates but I would likely fail some of the sidestyles and would probably lose that dmg that I gain again. Swapping s/s <-> 2hand between styles make sidestrafing slightly harder too because you want to queue an anytimer with your sidestyle in case you miss the strafe timing or get snared etc. which means that I would have to swap earlier i.e. before the attack recovery is over to make use of the stylequeue which, in turn, would mean I have to spend more time without block. At the moment I can chose to wait with my attack until my opponents attack came through and get a chance to block it.
I actually tried to go dual 2hand damage type spec without shield for a few days (slash + crush 2handed only) and I could land my sidestun fairly reliably. It was a nice damage boost against everything slash is weak against but in the end I changed back because the stun is too long (everyone has purge) and in a chain which makes it too complicated in 1vsx. I also lost quite some defense and utility for it: numb is just a great style for example. In the case of pala I have so many points that I don't really sacrifice anything for slam though which is not the case for all classes.
OK. I asked you because I was so surprised when i saw your "A sidestun is basically an anytimer as well" theory.
And that sounds like sidestyles are far from anytimer.
Kemoauc wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 3:06 AMFreedomcall wrote: ↑Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:22 PMKemoauc wrote: ↑Thu 8 Aug 2019 7:03 PMI don't because my positional styles don't really offer anything special (snares only). It would be slightly more damage due to higher growthrates but I would likely fail some of the sidestyles and would probably lose that dmg that I gain again. Swapping s/s <-> 2hand between styles make sidestrafing slightly harder too because you want to queue an anytimer with your sidestyle in case you miss the strafe timing or get snared etc. which means that I would have to swap earlier i.e. before the attack recovery is over to make use of the stylequeue which, in turn, would mean I have to spend more time without block. At the moment I can chose to wait with my attack until my opponents attack came through and get a chance to block it.
I actually tried to go dual 2hand damage type spec without shield for a few days (slash + crush 2handed only) and I could land my sidestun fairly reliably. It was a nice damage boost against everything slash is weak against but in the end I changed back because the stun is too long (everyone has purge) and in a chain which makes it too complicated in 1vsx. I also lost quite some defense and utility for it: numb is just a great style for example. In the case of pala I have so many points that I don't really sacrifice anything for slam though which is not the case for all classes.
OK. I asked you because I was so surprised when i saw your "A sidestun is basically an anytimer as well" theory.
And that sounds like sidestyles are far from anytimer.
I gave you a list of reasons why I don't value using my sidestyles not that they are particularly hard to land. Most of these reasons don't apply to other classes with good positional styles such as rangers/hunters, valewalkers, any kiting class with a side/back snare. In most cases they don't have the option to swap weapons and can properly queue the styles, the positional stun/snare ist the first in a chain, they wouldn't have enough skillpoints to get an anytimer stun without sacrificing most of their damage, they don't trade in defense (block) etc. There is almost no downside to them to try to side strafe because alternatively they would just spam their anytimer/reactional styles.
Any competent player will side or backstyle you and it is very very hard to avoid - especially side positionals which basically just require a tiny bit of movement right before the hit. Just watch Feanira's hunter video for example and see how she lands the backstun in every fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRKlqXl0vEA
Especially for classes that only have a limited amount of skill points to increase their melee dmg output, the existence of a direct positional stun is very very valuable. They get to put all their points in the main weapon line and do more damage generally but still get to stun their opponents fairly consistently - maybe it is not exactly an anytimer in all cases but it is close if the player is used to land them.
These classes are also way less bothered by people purging the stun because they did not give up any fighting power to get the stun in the first place which is why I can understand that in the other thread scouts are complaining about cd stun while having slam themselves - which is what I was replying to.
Kemoauc wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 3:06 AMFreedomcall wrote: ↑Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:22 PMKemoauc wrote: ↑Thu 8 Aug 2019 7:03 PMI don't because my positional styles don't really offer anything special (snares only). It would be slightly more damage due to higher growthrates but I would likely fail some of the sidestyles and would probably lose that dmg that I gain again. Swapping s/s <-> 2hand between styles make sidestrafing slightly harder too because you want to queue an anytimer with your sidestyle in case you miss the strafe timing or get snared etc. which means that I would have to swap earlier i.e. before the attack recovery is over to make use of the stylequeue which, in turn, would mean I have to spend more time without block. At the moment I can chose to wait with my attack until my opponents attack came through and get a chance to block it.
I actually tried to go dual 2hand damage type spec without shield for a few days (slash + crush 2handed only) and I could land my sidestun fairly reliably. It was a nice damage boost against everything slash is weak against but in the end I changed back because the stun is too long (everyone has purge) and in a chain which makes it too complicated in 1vsx. I also lost quite some defense and utility for it: numb is just a great style for example. In the case of pala I have so many points that I don't really sacrifice anything for slam though which is not the case for all classes.
OK. I asked you because I was so surprised when i saw your "A sidestun is basically an anytimer as well" theory.
And that sounds like sidestyles are far from anytimer.
I gave you a list of reasons why I don't value using my sidestyles not that they are particularly hard to land. Most of these reasons don't apply to other classes with good positional styles such as rangers/hunters, valewalkers, any kiting class with a side/back snare. In most cases they don't have the option to swap weapons and can properly queue the styles, the positional stun/snare ist the first in a chain, they wouldn't have enough skillpoints to get an anytimer stun without sacrificing most of their damage, they don't trade in defense (block) etc. There is almost no downside to them to try to side strafe because alternatively they would just spam their anytimer/reactional styles.
Any competent player will side or backstyle you and it is very very hard to avoid - especially side positionals which basically just require a tiny bit of movement right before the hit. Just watch Feanira's hunter video for example and see how she lands the backstun in every fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRKlqXl0vEA
Especially for classes that only have a limited amount of skill points to increase their melee dmg output, the existence of a direct positional stun is very very valuable. They get to put all their points in the main weapon line and do more damage generally but still get to stun their opponents fairly consistently - maybe it is not exactly an anytimer in all cases but it is close if the player is used to land them.
These classes are also way less bothered by people purging the stun because they did not give up any fighting power to get the stun in the first place which is why I can understand that in the other thread scouts are complaining about cd stun while having slam themselves - which is what I was replying to.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 8:44 AMThey do give up "fighting power" by using CD styles as utility only and by using the base weapon style lines for damage. Comparing someone who specs 50 DW (for dps AND utility) Vs someone who only specs 18 CD for utility means the CD user is swinging their offhand 21% less. This translates to 21% less unstyled damage and 21% less offhand proc chances. If you want to compare 50 DW Vs the average specced 27 (roughly) CD that's 17% less, so still pretty significant. Add on top of that the lower Weaponskill of trying to land a style with either 18+15 CD or 27+15 CD and you can see where a Hib dual wielder will be weaker than their Alb or Mid counterparts. The Hunter whose video you referenced? I can guarantee that she has more than 27 Spear.
You can't cherry-pick certain bits of info and leave others out. You have to look at the whole situation.
Freedomcall wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 9:19 AM0.88 growthrate for pally 2h is not a "Slightly more dmg" compared to 0.59 anytimer Rile.
0.88 is the just same as after parry chain. Don't you queue your parry chain for that 'slightly more dmg'?
0.29 difference itself is a good reason to spam if you think sidestyle is "anytimer".
You say ranger/hunters/VW have nothing to sacrifice when landing positionals, but this is wrong.
anytimer has to guarantee 100% landing, and this is why we make a queue of reactive/anytimer or positional/anytimer queue.
If sidestyles=anytimer, you should be able to make a queue of reactive/sidestyle, but can you do that?
Trying to land a sidestyle basically means he has sacrificed queueing reactive styles, and you lose dmg when you evade/parry while trying to land sidestyle.
Actually, the illusion of side/rearstyle being equal to anytimer only occurs against enemy that sticks all the time in duel.
I'm very sure you will have a hard time landing positionals to players that don't stick and use mouse pan.
Yes, you can still land positionals against them too, but if you can't land "anytime you want", that is not an anytimer anymore.
Kemoauc wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 10:06 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 8:44 AMThey do give up "fighting power" by using CD styles as utility only and by using the base weapon style lines for damage. Comparing someone who specs 50 DW (for dps AND utility) Vs someone who only specs 18 CD for utility means the CD user is swinging their offhand 21% less. This translates to 21% less unstyled damage and 21% less offhand proc chances. If you want to compare 50 DW Vs the average specced 27 (roughly) CD that's 17% less, so still pretty significant. Add on top of that the lower Weaponskill of trying to land a style with either 18+15 CD or 27+15 CD and you can see where a Hib dual wielder will be weaker than their Alb or Mid counterparts. The Hunter whose video you referenced? I can guarantee that she has more than 27 Spear.
You can't cherry-pick certain bits of info and leave others out. You have to look at the whole situation.Freedomcall wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 9:19 AM0.88 growthrate for pally 2h is not a "Slightly more dmg" compared to 0.59 anytimer Rile.
0.88 is the just same as after parry chain. Don't you queue your parry chain for that 'slightly more dmg'?
0.29 difference itself is a good reason to spam if you think sidestyle is "anytimer".
You say ranger/hunters/VW have nothing to sacrifice when landing positionals, but this is wrong.
anytimer has to guarantee 100% landing, and this is why we make a queue of reactive/anytimer or positional/anytimer queue.
If sidestyles=anytimer, you should be able to make a queue of reactive/sidestyle, but can you do that?
Trying to land a sidestyle basically means he has sacrificed queueing reactive styles, and you lose dmg when you evade/parry while trying to land sidestyle.
Actually, the illusion of side/rearstyle being equal to anytimer only occurs against enemy that sticks all the time in duel.
I'm very sure you will have a hard time landing positionals to players that don't stick and use mouse pan.
Yes, you can still land positionals against them too, but if you can't land "anytime you want", that is not an anytimer anymore.
Even though it doesn't matter what I do on my pally because I don't have a direct sidestun: It is not worth it for me due to the list of things I said in my previous post, it would be approx 10% more dmg plus better to hit/no defense malus over the anytimer which is something but not worth it.
But ok, I concede a sidestyle is not an anytimer
Cadebrennus, I read your reply a few times but don't really understand what you want to say.
But again for everyone, I'm not arguing about the growth rates difference between CD,DW,LA. I don't care at all what the growth rates are in the CD line and whether they should be changed or not. I was replying to a specific point someone raised and thought the be hypocritical which was that scouts cry about the fact that CD has a stun while they have slam and that purge is is too strong even though it affects both stuns.
I only provided an argument why that could be a valid opinion:the sidestun can be used reliably in fights and doesn't cost offensive power (compared to slam)
the sidestun duration is sometimes preferable in 1vs1 because it devalues purge (again compared to slam)
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 3:53 PMBasically I'm refuting what you said about Celtic Dual users not giving anything up by speccing Celtic Dual higher than 18-27, because Rangers/NS/BMs typically use Blades/Pierce/Blunt for damage. This is a direct result of the growth rates sucking in CD. What ends up happening, however, with such a low CD spec is that they end up with a much lower offhand swing chance and lower defense penetration when trying to use the side style, compared with someone who has specced 42 Shield.
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑Sun 11 Aug 2019 2:54 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Sat 10 Aug 2019 3:53 PMBasically I'm refuting what you said about Celtic Dual users not giving anything up by speccing Celtic Dual higher than 18-27, because Rangers/NS/BMs typically use Blades/Pierce/Blunt for damage. This is a direct result of the growth rates sucking in CD. What ends up happening, however, with such a low CD spec is that they end up with a much lower offhand swing chance and lower defense penetration when trying to use the side style, compared with someone who has specced 42 Shield.
Yeah that is one way to turn it - but it is quite far fetched. NS do not use CD for damage, that is true. That is because they spec CS (better damage) and NS do not have the spec-points to get weapon, CS and CD up, only INF's can do that. If you're saying BM do not use CD for damage I just laugh at you, most (good) BM's go 52 Comp Weapon, 42 Shield, 50 CD and right-after slam they go to-town with the side-chain from CD, you know the one with 1.25 GR (for them).
As for rangers: On Phoenix they don't go high CD, simply because they do not have the points for it. Pathfinding is worth it, so they can't reach 52 Comp-Weapon and high enough PF + CD to make it worth it.
And that is fine, especially when considering the utility that low'ish CD gives them (=NS + Ranger). You make it sounds like they suffer compared to their counterparts while in reality none of the three suffer at all. NS is better off with CS than with CD, BM is doing perfectly fine with CD and smart rangers figured out long ago that on Phoenix there is no viable spec for high CD, simply because they lack the points for it, not because CD is somehow underwhelming.
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:06 PMCD only has one good style chain for damage that's exclusive to BMs. That's it. Only one, and only for one class. Everything else is garbage in the line damage-wise.
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:29 PMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Sun 11 Aug 2019 6:06 PMCD only has one good style chain for damage that's exclusive to BMs. That's it. Only one, and only for one class. Everything else is garbage in the line damage-wise.
I know reading isn't your forté - but the entire point is that it doesn't matter:
* BM still get the uber side-chain (better than mercs get) and (much) better utility than DW/LA.
* Nightshade has CS which is better damage regardless.
* Ranger does not have the spec-points for high CD build on Phoenix, because PF is superior to begin with.
Think about it, even if CD had the full damage side-chain for NS/Ranger how would you spec them differently ?
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