Nerf to volley? - Phoenix Freeshard

So I was trying to defend a keep and you can't do anything because you have a bunch of archers doing volley assist. It's not fun to even bother trying to defend a keep when you are getting owned by cheese mechanics like this. Any plans to add a LoS check or should I just not even bother wasting time trying to defend a keep because you literally cannot do anything to defend a keep when you are getting constantly pelted by arrows from people who don't even know who they are shooting at. Archers should have to kill people the old fashioned way with LoS in a keep siege.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 7:49 AM by Leandrys

This topic had to come, volley as it is right now is a problem...

Fri 26 Jul 2019 7:54 AM by bishibosh

They need to nerf volley asap this is a joke, they need to make it so archers have to shoot specific targets and make it so people can actually defend a keep. I wonder how many archers are just getting boosted hardcore with this cheese. Whatever happened to archers just assisting with normal shots? That is how it used to play out in this game.

It should have been nerfed the first week they went to NF. Do the right thing devs and nerf volley immediately, add a LoS check or something, this isn't how keep fights are supposed to happen and it's no fun. Give them something else to accommodate if need be but this really has to change. I am sure people who wanted NF wanted fun keep fights, this is not fun.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 7:59 AM by hibenosa

As i Am thinking about rolling a scout.

What exactly is working/not working?

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:00 AM by bishibosh

Basically all you have to do is spec for volley, get 2-3 + archers together to assist a persons ground target and then you hit people without having to put any effort or thought into what you are doing, you get to own everybody who is trying to defend a keep without any LoS required, and then you get boosted because the side with more volley archers wins. Also it's really hard to defend when every spot that you can realistically defend in a keep is basically being volley/gtaed at all times. Part of the reason volley is so frustrating is because you can't even just med in a spot where you would think its safe out of LoS. Gtae from a caster is one thing but to get hit by archers in addition to it is just too much.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:17 AM by kiectred

You understand the whole point is that it doesn't require LoS? What exactly is unrealistic/unreasonable about firing a volley over a keep wall? They already fixed it to be unable to hit you if you have a roof over you. Or get a shield tank to guard. Or NS them. Or use your own archers to volley back...

The constant shouting for nerfs is getting old, archers are basically useless in every other scenario. It makes perfect sense they should excel in sieges, and it's not like they have no counter or one realm has a significant advantage.

Full disclosure, I don't play an archer and get unreasonably giddy when I finally get the chance to crush one that has been volleying me all siege. Shit is annoying as hell but I dunno about OP. Maybe the range could be lowered, at best?

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:18 AM by bishibosh

It is the exact definition of OP when people can't even defend a keep because of it. Why defend something that is low effort and doesn't allow counterplay? This isn't what makes keep fights fun.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:22 AM by kiectred

I just described counterplays but ok ignore them all. I've also been in hundreds of keep fights that are winnable even while being volleyed. It does make things harder and it can be annoying, but counters exist. Just because YOU personally might not be able to do something depending on your class, doesn't mean no one can. Fight smarter as a group.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:26 AM by bishibosh

I can't imagine that you are seriously defending volley unless you are playing an archer using it yourself. Archers defending with volley are at a serious disadvantage by the way since attackers can spread out more meanwhile defenders are usually forced into the center part of the keep. It's your choice to enjoy cheese mechanics we will just have to have a difference of opinion on it. I have no problem crying about something like this, it obviously needs to be changed. I for one think that an archer should have to know who they are shooting at the old fashioned way and to make smart plays based on that and not just use mindless tactics. What is wrong with archer assist using normal shots? You know a thing called counterplay where you can see them and they can see you. What is the point of NF's super cool keeps if we can't even defend them the way we are meant to.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:40 AM by kiectred

My name here is the same name as my one and only lvl 50. It's not an archer. I like that you basically called me a liar for no reason though.

Why do you keep calling it "the old fashioned way"? Volley isn't original to the game but it's a very, very old ability and (as if it matters in a fantasy game) quite realistic.
I would be more sympathetic to your opinions if you suggested actual reasonable changes but this is just crying. "Mindless" tactics, "old-fashioned way", "smart plays"... listen to yourself. They are being smart. It's not mindless. Maybe it's easy, but you're the one who just wants to play mindlessly if you can't acknowledge there is a single counter or even suggest potential fix.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:42 AM by bishibosh

The fix is to nerf it so people can actually defend a keep, like I said I am sorry we cannot agree since you like cheese mechanics and I like fair ones. Btw I have played multiple archers to rr6+ without needing to abuse volley assist to do it. I think I have a valid perspective on this since I have gotten ranks the legit way most of the time by myself. IMO like i said numerous times, if an archer exposes himself to shoot you that allows for counterplay, you can even have multiple archers do it with normal shots to wreck people and guess what... its FAIR that way.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:52 AM by kiectred

Ok, so I've been in tons of keep defenses where we won despite archers.

What exactly are you suggesting? Nothing still? It's absolutely unreasonable and stupid to require LoS, so please suggest something real. They fixed volley going into structures which was definitely needed.

Also: a note on fairness... almost 0 PvP encounters in this game are "fair". In a way, the whole objective is to leverage unfair advantages for the win. All stealthers do this. All casters do this. Zergs do this with traps and ambushes or just bringing massively superior numbers, 8v8 isn't fair unless everyone has comp groups and roughly equal RRs, hell the closest thing to fair is two shield tanks smacking each other till the server dies and even that isn't fair if one has RAs up or has better RAs.

Counter it as already suggested or just keep standing in their firing paths and dying, but don't request nerfs while you play as mindlessly as you post.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:54 AM by inoeth

just get a roof over your head and you are safe? really guys volley is far from op....

as i said a thousand times now learn how to play omg
how can one expect not to die when standing in the middle of twf/malestrome/volley... just move out of it

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:56 AM by bishibosh

So the solution to defending a keep is to get a roof over your head, awesome okay folks we can all go home discussion over they solved the keep defense dilemma.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:57 AM by kiectred

I like that now you have not just one archer but many, so your perspective is valid... but if I had one my perspective would be invalid... Simply because we disagree and you would accuse me of abusing volley 😂

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:57 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:56 AM
So the solution to defending a keep is to get a roof over your head, awesome okay folks we can all go home discussion over they solved keep defense.

No the solution(s) were explained in my first post, but yes maybe standing under a roof is a start since you can defend from those positions still.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:58 AM by bishibosh

SO what is the point of keep walls if you are just gonna get owned by someone who doesn't even know who they are shooting at. Quit defending cheese, you are a friar you should hate this.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:03 AM by kiectred

And yet I don't because to me it's not much more than an annoyance and power drain. I don't think I've ever died to volley and rarely has volley been the reason my side won or lost. As for the point of keep walls, imagine if there were none and ask yourself if sieges would literally go exactly as they do now. That's the point of the walls.

Seriously, I'm not even trying to be rude but you're really not helping your case. Suggest something. I suggested lowering the range... seems reasonable to me? If you're gonna be shooting a bunch of arrows quickly I don't think it makes sense that you have time/energy to draw for such range.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:06 AM by bishibosh

The solution is literally to add a LoS check I mentioned that in my first posts, don't accuse me of not having a solution. I laid it out for you right at the beginning you just didn't read it. No point in arguing, you like cheese I like FUN fair fights with counterplay that is all there is to this discussion right now.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:10 AM by kiectred

I did read it and I asked for a reasonable suggestion. Did you not read my response? How does requiring LoS make sense? Again, I realize it's a fantasy game but at least LoS is meant to be realistic... *and trust me I know it isn't in every case* ... but could you not imagine people not needing to see their target when firing a volley? Why is this so much worse than gtaoe? Make that require LoS, too? Unfair as it is since you can't see them... that's literally the only thing you're arguing.

Still refusing to acknowledge counter plays and accusing other players of being mindless... 😏

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:13 AM by bishibosh

Because archers exposing themselves to shoot you allows for counterplay, why are you so against that?

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:15 AM by kiectred

But they are exposed when shooting. Maybe YOU can't hit them, but they are hittable. Never mind other potential counters

Why are you ignoring my fix for gtaoe? Make it require LoS, too. It's unfair and not even a roof protects you.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:19 AM by bishibosh

Casters with gtae is one thing, it drains power and its once every 6 seconds I have never had a problem with gtae, but when you have gtae stacked with volley assist its too much. Why are you so in favor of these mechanics? I don't get what would make you so okay with them as a friar.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:22 AM by kiectred

What's the timer on volley? Maybe that could be increased? But I thought it was already longer than gtaoe timers.

Edit: charplan says it's 15 seconds. So 6 sec gtaoe isn't a problem but 15sec volley is?

I don't see how gtaoe isn't a problem if no LoS on archers is a problem

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:25 AM by bishibosh

SOrry to burst your bubble but it takes like 4-5 seconds to wind up volley but once you do you shoot at basically normal speed over and over and im pretty sure it gives you like 5 shots before you have to activate it again. It's basically spammable maybe you should try it out sometime and realize how op it is.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:31 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:25 AM
SOrry to burst your bubble but it takes like 4-5 seconds to wind up volley but once you do you shoot at basically normal speed over and over and im pretty sure it gives you like 5 shots before you have to activate it again. It's basically spammable maybe you should try it out sometime and realize how op it is.

WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOU SHOULD'VE SUGGESTED THIS FROM THE BEGINNING.

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't hit the magic number of times to ask you for your thoughts on what could be done. In the end, I had to suggest it myself 😂 my bubble has been so thoroughly busted, you wrecked me and I'll never recover. Have mercy next time.

But sidenote: never once have I been spam-volleyed by one archer. I call BS, but even if that's happening, you should probably move. And the fact that it seems to be a problem means you're not doing that one incredibly simple thing. Or I dunno, maybe literally any single person with you could do something to interrupt.

Confirmed: mindless player, mindless poster.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:49 AM by bishibosh

You have no idea what you are talking about maybe you should just stop, you didn't even know how volley works.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:54 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:49 AM
You have no idea what you are talking about maybe you should just stop, you didn't even know how volley works.

Such a strong response... I told you to have mercy next time. 🤣🤣

Anyhow, we can both stop, think this is resolved in this thread here at least, and now it's up to Devs to do something if they feel it's necessary. Meanwhile, I'll continue to not die to volley.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:57 AM by Hejjin

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:42 AM
The fix is to nerf it so people can actually defend a keep, like I said I am sorry we cannot agree since you like cheese mechanics and I like fair ones. Btw I have played multiple archers to rr6+ without needing to abuse volley assist to do it. I think I have a valid perspective on this since I have gotten ranks the legit way most of the time by myself. IMO like i said numerous times, if an archer exposes himself to shoot you that allows for counterplay, you can even have multiple archers do it with normal shots to wreck people and guess what... its FAIR that way.

A few months ago when volley could hit anyone whether inside or outside a structure your point would be valid, that is no longer the case, volley can no longer hit people under a roof (though there my be edge case around openings leading in to the structure). Keeps are defensible, Kiectred has mentioned how that is possible.

For the record I do have an archer, however he does not have volley as I specced out of it some time ago.

Stop calling for nerfs, these forum bandwagons are annoying.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:59 AM by Hejjin

kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:22 AM
What's the timer on volley? Maybe that could be increased? But I thought it was already longer than gtaoe timers.

Edit: charplan says it's 15 seconds. So 6 sec gtaoe isn't a problem but 15sec volley is?

I don't see how gtaoe isn't a problem if no LoS on archers is a problem

5 shots over 15 seconds, the first 5 seconds are readying the shots before releasing the first. The shots do not all land at the same time.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:04 AM by bishibosh

If a nerf is warranted I will complain about it, you are just being a contrarian because you don't like nerf threads? Get off your high horse and realize its a toxic mechanic.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:07 AM by Hejjin

kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:15 AM
But they are exposed when shooting. Maybe YOU can't hit them, but they are hittable. Never mind other potential counters
snip...

I am not sure about the above Kiectred, when I used to defend OF keeps on my scout I specced Volley, I would set my ground target just beyond the outer gates and launch my volleys from inside the room where the keep commander is located (Albion keeps). That was still possible even after the nerf to ensure that people inside structures could not be hit by volleys. I have no idea if that is still possible as I specced out of volley when NF arrived.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:09 AM by Sepplord

ahhh now that TWF has been done, volley is next

let the bandwagoning begin

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:09 AM by Hejjin

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:04 AM
If a nerf is warranted I will complain about it, you are just being a contrarian because you don't like nerf threads? Get off your high horse and realize its a toxic mechanic.

What is toxic is you forum bandwagonners campaigning for everything that annoys you to be nerfed. You might not be able to defend keeps because of volley, but competent people can and do,

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:11 AM by Hejjin

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:09 AM
ahhh now that TWF has been done, volley is next

let the bandwagoning begin

Sad but true.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:17 AM by bishibosh

I like how you said you had only one 50 then you admitted to having an archer, you are so full of it dude already exposed your own lie to everybody. If I was competent i guess I would follow your brilliant advice and instead of trying to defend from a keep wall I should have had a roof over my head because that is what keep defense is all about right.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:18 AM by Stoertebecker

I died to volley twice in the morning, killed 14 with volley...where`s the problem?

Btw...nerf katapult assist

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:20 AM by kiectred

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:07 AM
kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 9:15 AM
But they are exposed when shooting. Maybe YOU can't hit them, but they are hittable. Never mind other potential counters
snip...
I am not sure about the above Kiectred, when I used to defend OF keeps on my scout I specced Volley, I would set my ground target just beyond the outer gates and launch my volleys from inside the room where the keep commander is located (Albion keeps). That was still possible even after the nerf to ensure that people inside structures could not be hit by volleys. I have no idea if that is still possible as I specced out of volley when NF arrived.

Ok that's a good point. But did the fix include not being able to volley *from* inside structures? Because I never saw that explicitly written but should also be the case imo.

Aside from that potential exploit, this is actually a good case for how volley can favor the defenders, not the attackers (@bishibosh): defenders can volley from the courtyards and basically unless an assassin or light tank climbs up and tries to kill them (suicide mission) they're untouchable. An attacker on the fields outside the keep will always be easier to hit than a volley from the courtyard, although they do have more space to maneuver around in than courtyard archers.... it's almost like there are pros and cons to both sides.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:21 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:17 AM
I like how you said you had only one 50 then you admitted to having an archer, you are so full of it dude already exposed your own lie to everybody. If I was competent i guess I would follow your brilliant advice and instead of trying to defend from a keep wall I should have had a roof over my head because that is what keep defense is all about right.

Dude it's two different people posting to you holy shit are you absolutely brainless.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:21 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:04 AM
If a nerf is warranted I will complain about it, you are just being a contrarian because you don't like nerf threads? Get off your high horse and realize its a toxic mechanic.

Now this post makes more sense - you had no idea that you're talking to 2 people.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:22 AM by Hejjin

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:17 AM
I like how you said you had only one 50 then you admitted to having an archer, you are so full of it dude already exposed your own lie to everybody.

You are confusing me and Kiectred, well done.

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:17 AM
If I was competent i guess I would follow your brilliant advice and instead of trying to defend from a keep wall I should have had a roof over my head because that is what keep defense is all about right.

Group with a class with a shield...

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:25 AM by Sepplord

Quite sure we are just feeding a troll...
account was created today and has done nothing than posting this shit

If he actually does experience what he claims, then he must have additional accounts and a ban should be incoming for multi-accounting

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:28 AM by Hejjin

kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:20 AM
Ok that's a good point. But did the fix include not being able to volley *from* inside structures? Because I never saw that explicitly written but should also be the case imo.

Aside from that potential exploit, this is actually a good case for how volley can favor the defenders, not the attackers (@bishibosh): defenders can volley from the courtyards and basically unless an assassin or light tank climbs up and tries to kill them (suicide mission) they're untouchable. An attacker on the fields outside the keep will always be easier to hit than a volley from the courtyard, although they do have more space to maneuver around in than courtyard archers.... it's almost like there are pros and cons to both sides.

The change to volley occurred before the switch to NF, and it was still possible to launch from within a room then, but as I have not used volley in NF I have no idea if something associated with NF prevents that. Archers inside the keep towers can be at a disadvantage as there is a minimum range associated with Volley, it needs to be at least 66% of max bow range to target.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:28 AM by Stoertebecker

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:56 AM
So the solution to defending a keep is to get a roof over your head, awesome okay folks we can all go home discussion over they solved the keep defense dilemma.

Do you know what really helps? Grouping with a class that is able to heal.
Do you know what a healer would say to you after you´ve died over and over again? l2p would be the nicest.... .D

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:29 AM by kiectred

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:25 AM
Quite sure we are just feeding a troll...
account was created today and has done nothing than posting this shit

If he actually does experience what he claims, then he must have additional accounts and a ban should be incoming for multi-accounting

Yea true. But he has a RR3 sham that has been active at least a week... new forum account with same name as older character.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:31 AM by kiectred

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:28 AM
kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:20 AM
Ok that's a good point. But did the fix include not being able to volley *from* inside structures? Because I never saw that explicitly written but should also be the case imo.

Aside from that potential exploit, this is actually a good case for how volley can favor the defenders, not the attackers (@bishibosh): defenders can volley from the courtyards and basically unless an assassin or light tank climbs up and tries to kill them (suicide mission) they're untouchable. An attacker on the fields outside the keep will always be easier to hit than a volley from the courtyard, although they do have more space to maneuver around in than courtyard archers.... it's almost like there are pros and cons to both sides.
The change to volley occurred before the switch to NF, and it was still possible to launch from within a room then, but as I have not used volley in NF I have no idea if something associated with NF prevents that. Archers inside the keep towers can be at a disadvantage as there is a minimum range associated with Volley, it needs to be at least 66% of max bow range to target.

Gotcha. Well, could be problems still but this troll didn't think enough to bring it up himself so who knows.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:35 AM by bishibosh

You are supporting cheese mechanics that are unhealthy for the server and I am a "Troll" who thinks keep fights should be fair and not based on who has more volley archers who don't even know who they are shooting at. Keep fights are 100% being determined by volley archers right now and an attackers have the advantage. If you can't see why that's bad on your own then I doubt I will be able to change your mind.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:35 AM by Hejjin

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:28 AM
bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:56 AM
So the solution to defending a keep is to get a roof over your head, awesome okay folks we can all go home discussion over they solved the keep defense dilemma.

Do you know what really helps? Grouping with a class that is able to heal.
Do you know what a healer would say to you after you´ve died over and over again? l2p would be the nicest.... .D

Or thanks for the free RP points for repeatedly ressing ;-).

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:38 AM by kiectred

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:35 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:28 AM
bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:56 AM
So the solution to defending a keep is to get a roof over your head, awesome okay folks we can all go home discussion over they solved the keep defense dilemma.

Do you know what really helps? Grouping with a class that is able to heal.
Do you know what a healer would say to you after you´ve died over and over again? l2p would be the nicest.... .D

Or thanks for the free RP points for repeatedly ressing ;-).

One night, as a staff friar, I racked up over 200K in heals and probably 40 rezzes in sieges. No range DPS but easy RPs anyhow.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:40 AM by bishibosh

Oh yeah l2p, "get a roof over your head" the wise advice of the brilliant minds of phoenix teaching us all how to defend a keep instead of admitting that this game mechanic is toxic and bad for the server. Thanks for teaching me to only defend the keep from the room the lord is in I am sure that will work great also!

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:41 AM by Hejjin

kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:38 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:35 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:28 AM
Do you know what really helps? Grouping with a class that is able to heal.
Do you know what a healer would say to you after you´ve died over and over again? l2p would be the nicest.... .D

Or thanks for the free RP points for repeatedly ressing ;-).

One night, as a staff friar, I racked up over 200K in heals and probably 40 rezzes in sieges simply because of guys like Bishibosh. Wouldn't mind him on my team actually...

Aye, I have had similar days on Dhavon where prolonged keep defences have earned me a lot of RPs due to all the out of group heals/resurrections I performed ;-).

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:41 AM by bishibosh

So basically you are just rezzing a bunch of people getting volleyed to death got it, I get why you are defending it now makes sense.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:42 AM by kiectred

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:41 AM
kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:38 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:35 AM
Or thanks for the free RP points for repeatedly ressing ;-).

One night, as a staff friar, I racked up over 200K in heals and probably 40 rezzes in sieges simply because of guys like Bishibosh. Wouldn't mind him on my team actually...
Aye, I have similar days on Dhavon where prolonged keep defences have earned me a lot of RPs due to all the out of group heals/resurrections I performed ;-).

Ahh didn't realize you were Dhavon!

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:43 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:41 AM
So basically you are just rezzing a bunch of people getting volleyed to death got it, I get why you are defending it now makes sense.

Rezzing people who die due to legit reasons and also people who can't fathom how to move out of the way of an archer who is apparently spamming volley on one spot.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:45 AM by bishibosh

Rofl yeah just move out of the way of the 5+ rangers using volley on the central part of the keep where you literally will get hit from every spot. oh yeah I forgot to get a roof over my head, rofl. It needs LoS if you think otherwise then you are just a noob who needs cheese to win.

Devs add counterplay for the health of your server, this toxic garbage mechanic has got to go.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:45 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:40 AM
Oh yeah l2p, "get a roof over your head" the wise advice of the brilliant minds of phoenix teaching us all how to defend a keep instead of admitting that this game mechanic is toxic and bad for the server. Thanks for teaching me to only defend the keep from the room the lord is in I am sure that will work great also!

I love how you just make fun of every solution.

"Look at these idiots suggesting I do something about it! Shields? NS? Realmmates volleying back? A roof? Healing?! Wrong!"

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:48 AM by bishibosh

How the hell are you supposed to nearsight someone who doesn't even need loS, are you serious right now? And volleying back against attackers who are split up around the walls? Not quite as easy as just dumping arrows onto the central part of a keep where you are going to hit everyone who is trying to defend with no LoS needed, think about it for a minute, no seriously just THINK.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:50 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:48 AM
How the hell are you supposed to nearsight someone who doesn't even need loS, are you serious right now?

So they're standing outside the walls, but very clearly within range of the walls. Believe it or not, that means someone can see them. Even if it's not you.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:51 AM by bishibosh

You can use volley from behind a wall, if people are forced into the central keep they can't have LoS on certain parts of the outer keep behind walls, your argument is trash. Having someone guard you is also a trash argument as well because that isn't counterplay to someone shooting you from behind some random wall with no LoS required. Try again Einsteins.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:01 AM by kiectred

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:51 AM
You can use volley from behind a wall, if people are forced into the central keep they can't have LoS on certain parts of the outer keep behind walls, your argument is trash. Having someone guard you is also a trash argument as well because that isn't counterplay to someone shooting you from behind some random wall with no LoS required. Try again Einsteins.

Everything is trash. You've proven your intellect time and time again with the name mixup, not reading other parts of posts, repeatedly refusing to suggest a change and then acting like the change I suggested was your idea and broke my argument.

Then when things really went bad for you, again, despite me already suggesting a nice fix and agreeing it could make things better, you decided that agreement wasn't enough... you were embarrassed and started calling everyone cunts and idiots. That's the sign of a winner.

This was enough of a time sink for my slow day. You're angry and even if you weren't originally trying to be a troll, it's clearly pointless now. You have no ideas, only tears and sad insults.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:04 AM by bishibosh

Dude you are making it about me even though you know the mechanics are bs and unhealthy for the server, get over yourself dude you are defending a sinking ship. Why should anybody play anything other than an archer if volley is gonna be what decides most every keep fight? Why should I even bother trying to defend when I can't get a single cast off at any part of the central keep at any given time due to interrupts that took no effort, no los, no thought at all involved. Why should I not just hop on my ranger and join the hib zerg and abuse volley also since this is the new meta? Why don't you answer that and try to give a good reason why someone should even bother trying to defend a keep against that.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:07 AM by Pops999

Another cry ? One wonders how we ever advanced from the Medevial Age with all those Longbows firing volley after volley at advancing armies or castles, firing willy nilly into the air.

The Romans figured out a method kid, you can too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation

Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:14 AM by bishibosh

This is a video game, it's supposed to be fun for all sides not just the attacking group that is going to hit everybody in the central keep with zero effort, no los required, no actual tact involving actual archery skills outside of volley. So far the counter arguments are, get a roof over your head and make a shield wall! The stuff you guys are suggesting is seriously fucking stupid, it's not actual counterplay. Archers exposing themselves allows for counterplay, the people defending this trash just want to keep abusing cheese mechanics for ez rps. You guys are just straight up bad and need a crutch to get you those sweet unjustly earned ranks so you are slightly less bad.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:44 AM by Hejjin

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:04 AM
Dude you are making it about me...

It only became about you after you got the two of us mixed up, and then started throwing insults when that was pointed out. I have no intention of further feeding a troll, so this is my last reply to you.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:53 AM by Druth

Another thing I find annoying, and one reason to not buff archer damage (util maybe).
But it stops when archer dies, and is not a mass killer.

Abilities can be strong without being OP.

Wish shields worked better against it, but guess shield users already have enough advantages.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 12:31 PM by

Uthred

I deleted a lot of posts and if the insults dont stop, i will lock the thread. Up to you.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 12:47 PM by Wooshh

Is it a joke? Another nerf post? To 3 of the worst daoc classes? I refuse to read it i just hope it s a joke. It begins to be annoying.

Today guards killed me nerf guards plz

Yesterday i was alone and a 8man killed me. nerf 8man plz give the possibility to soloers to kill a fg

Fri 26 Jul 2019 12:52 PM by Sleepwell

i randomly play my hunter. I do have volley. I do not rack up rps with volley. I have killed people with volley, but it appears that more often than not, the people i kill "appear" to be afk or absolutely not paying attention. The only possible explanation for not moving when you're hit by volley is something myself and several guildies experienced last night. I was on my savage in a tower, on the roof. NO animation, no sound (the arrows wizzing by), just the damage. A bug of course. I'm too lazy to create a bug report but it happened. Had i been afk or brainlessly glaring at my screen, i would have died to arrows sticking in my ass due to volley. As i noticed i was being hit by volley, i pulled back into the tower (obstructed view to sky, therefore safe from volley).

We all have dislikes. I really dislike being hit by gtaoe in the lord room with all doors closed while im on my healer, but you'll never see me gripe about it here. With each nerf comes another nerf.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 12:55 PM by Sleepwell

kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:29 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:25 AM
Quite sure we are just feeding a troll...
account was created today and has done nothing than posting this shit

If he actually does experience what he claims, then he must have additional accounts and a ban should be incoming for multi-accounting

Yea true. But he has a RR3 sham that has been active at least a week... new forum account with same name as older character.

Good catch too. <sarcasm on> I can only assume he deleted his other account completely and started a new account. <sarcasm off>

It would be lunacy to post here on a second account. Thats like throwing yourself in the lions den

Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:08 PM by kiectred

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 12:55 PM
kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:29 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:25 AM
Quite sure we are just feeding a troll...
account was created today and has done nothing than posting this shit

If he actually does experience what he claims, then he must have additional accounts and a ban should be incoming for multi-accounting

Yea true. But he has a RR3 sham that has been active at least a week... new forum account with same name as older character.

Good catch too. <sarcasm on> I can only assume he deleted his other account completely and started a new account. <sarcasm off>

It would be lunacy to post here on a second account. Thats like throwing yourself in the lions den

Omg it was true. Check the banned accounts forum, he had multi.

Side note, sorry to Uthred for this getting so ridiculous. Shouldn't have engaged with him as long as I did.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:23 PM by Sleepwell

hahaha... omfg that is classic. People have some nerve. I would take that as a personal affront to blatantly try to rub that in my face if i were a GM/CSR. Either people are there naive to think they can get away with that, or they think that the GM's/CSR's are too stupid to catch it. Either way... the result gave me a chuckle.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:28 PM by Leandrys

Somewhere between 2-5 min timer, and it's fixed, easy one.

This is exacly the case where there's a problem in DAOC mass RvR, when you become able to ruin actions by spamming one class, this shouldn't be possible, animists were nerfed and it was deserved (even if the nerf is stupid and much too strong here), Albion played the "1 button RvR experience" with reavers and earned a really well deserved nerf, when archers start to enter no brain mode and groundassist in packs it is quite the same, one class spam gives too many nuisance power, = nerf.

And honnestly, i've had enough kills with bow in zerg without even unlocking Volley to know what archers can do, no need to be able to almost constantly spam artillery on a precise zone.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:48 PM by Sleepwell

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:28 PM
Somewhere between 2-5 min timer, and it's fixed, easy one.

This is exacly the case where there's a problem in DAOC mass RvR, when you become able to ruin actions by spamming one class, this shouldn't be possible, animists were nerfed and it was deserved (even if the nerf is stupid and much too strong here), Albion played the "1 button RvR experience" with reavers and earned a really well deserved nerf, when archers start to enter no brain mode and groundassist in packs it is quite the same, one class spam gives too many nuisance power, = nerf.

And honnestly, i've had enough kills with bow in zerg without even unlocking Volley to know what archers can do, no need to be able to almost constantly spam artillery on a precise zone.

I can't disagree with that. In this case, it would hit all three realms, so i am less concerned about it. It would affect me on my hunter, but its not game changing. It would also affect the other two realms. I disagree with the premise it was started on though, that there was no counter. There was, as it was adjusted and patched months ago. Put some structure over your head. The problem with these threads starting is that they snowball. Volley is the target, but it turns into every GTaoe spell coming under fire. As i pointed out, i don't like being hit in a lord room, with zero los from a caster, but i accepted it. Just like volley, there is a counter.... move...

Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:57 PM by Hejjin

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:28 PM
Somewhere between 2-5 min timer, and it's fixed, easy one.

Two to five minute cool-down on an RA that sequentially fires 5 shots over 15 seconds? That would be yet another knee-jerk over-reaction.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:02 PM by Horus

I remember the good ol days and other server days getting decimated by volley while hanging out in the lord room.

You have it easy on Phoenix. Duck under a roof ( I feel like many don't even realize this), counter with cheap siege, hit them/interrupt with GTAOE spells which hit EVERYONE in a radius. not just 5 arrows with a random chance of hitting.

The idea of the lone sniper ranger killing at range has never been feasible here for many reasons documented in other threads.

So finally there is some keep take/BG situational gameplay that allows ranged archers to group together and be somewhat effective at something. Here come the nerf calls..

It pains me to even say this but if a further Volley nerf is seriously considered (which it should not be), the way to do it would be remove it as an RA and tie it to bow spec. This would solve this issue talked about ad nauseam about the weakness of specing bow.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:04 PM by kiectred

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:57 PM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 1:28 PM
Somewhere between 2-5 min timer, and it's fixed, easy one.
Two to five minute cool-down on an RA that sequentially fires 5 shots over 15 seconds? That would be yet another knee-jerk over-reaction.

Yea I was thinking 1min max, possibly even 30sec (from the time the last arrow shoots). But as I've said, I haven't encountered so many horrible problems with volley nor has it very commonly decided a siege, so I'm not explicitly calling for any change.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:21 PM by Hejjin

kiectred wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:04 PM
Yea I was thinking 1min max, possibly even 30sec (from the time the last arrow shoots). But as I've said, I haven't encountered so many horrible problems with volley nor has it very commonly decided a siege, so I'm not explicitly calling for any change.

I have not been at even one keep siege where Volley was the sole factor in deciding the fate of the siege, not even in the bad old days of OF where Volley could hit you anywhere inside a structure.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:32 PM by Sleepwell

I agree. Groundassist with 6 catapault is way more affective (especially with splash damage).

Volley hitting 1 target per fire depends a lot more on luck. I guess the math could add up if you had more people volleying and they all got lucky and hit the same target (which is random afaik). The cat hits all in the area. Some mathematician can probably break out the trigonometry and come up with the answer :-)

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:45 PM by Hejjin

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:32 PM
I agree. Groundassist with 6 catapault is way more affective (especially with splash damage).

Volley hitting 1 target per fire depends a lot more on luck. I guess the math could add up if you had more people volleying and they all got lucky and hit the same target (which is random afaik). The cat hits all in the area. Some mathematician can probably break out the trigonometry and come up with the answer :-)

To the best of my knowledge and belief, the exact diameter of the ground-target area is not listed, neither on the RA itself nor on the charplan RR description for Volley, which makes it rather hard to do the calculations ;-).

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:47 PM by Leandrys

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:21 PM
I have not been at even one keep siege where Volley was the sole factor in deciding the fate of the siege, not even in the bad old days of OF where Volley could hit you anywhere inside a structure.

Lol, 0 shame was given with that reply.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:53 PM by

gruenesschaf

So far the roof requirement seems to be sufficient.

Even if for some mysterious reason it becomes an issue by lots and lots more archers popping up and with their play style consisting of basically just volley assisting in keep fights, LoS will never be added to it as it goes completely against the spirit of the ability.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:57 PM by Hejjin

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:47 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:21 PM
I have not been at even one keep siege where Volley was the sole factor in deciding the fate of the siege, not even in the bad old days of OF where Volley could hit you anywhere inside a structure.

Lol, 0 shame was given with that reply.

Translation please, I am having issues parsing that reply...

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:13 PM by Sleepwell

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:45 PM
Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:32 PM
I agree. Groundassist with 6 catapault is way more affective (especially with splash damage).

Volley hitting 1 target per fire depends a lot more on luck. I guess the math could add up if you had more people volleying and they all got lucky and hit the same target (which is random afaik). The cat hits all in the area. Some mathematician can probably break out the trigonometry and come up with the answer :-)
To the best of my knowledge and belief, the exact diameter of the ground-target area is not listed, neither on the RA itself nor on the charplan RR description for Volley, which makes it rather hard to do the calculations ;-).

Its not really the area thats part of the equation. Its the fact that it only has the "chance" to hit 1 target in the area per round (5 rounds per 15 seconds... takes @ 5 seconds to setup the shot, then hitting the shots afterwards). Luck is involved to hit the same target in the area 5 times. You can increase your chance of hitting the target in that area by increasing the number of attackers (volley'ers :-) ). My point was that especially in a siege (zerg) environment, you are wayyyy better off bringing a cat and assisting other cat users. Find a juicy GT and assist. You hit ALL targets in the splash area, not just a "chance" to hit 1 target.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:18 PM by Sleepwell

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:19 PM by Leandrys

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:57 PM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:47 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:21 PM
I have not been at even one keep siege where Volley was the sole factor in deciding the fate of the siege, not even in the bad old days of OF where Volley could hit you anywhere inside a structure.

Lol, 0 shame was given with that reply.
Translation please, I am having issues parsing that reply...

Internet standard's sarcasm. Translation would be "lol, you're incredibly shameless when writing this, to a point where i just can't stop myself laughing while reading you."

I agree it was really difficult to understand it, you seem kinda anxious, doesn't help in communicating most of time. Nota bene : gentl sarcasm, i'm always amused when people posting a lot on the web do not know standard memes.

And btw, of course timer should be nerfed, archers are basically 75% of time in artillery mode when using volley, can't see the problem ? :'

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:24 PM by kiectred

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:19 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:57 PM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:47 PM
Lol, 0 shame was given with that reply.
Translation please, I am having issues parsing that reply...

Internet standard's sarcasm. Translation would be "lol, you're incredibly shameless when writing this, to a point where i just can't stop myself laughing while reading you."

I agree it was really difficult to understand it, you seem kinda anxious, doesn't help in communicating most of time. Nota bene : gentl sarcasm, i'm always amused when people posting a lot on the web do not know standard memes.

You're assuming a bit too much. I didn't understand your comment either, all he did was ask what you meant. The wording is awkward. No one is angry (at least not now that OP is gone 😁

.

What standard meme was that a reference to? Or is that just meant as a general observation?

Edit: off topic now anyways. Personally, very happy with Gruenesschaf's comment. That's basically the end of it.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:30 PM by Sleepwell

Cata's are much better :-)

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:34 PM by Hejjin

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:19 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:57 PM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:47 PM
Lol, 0 shame was given with that reply.
Translation please, I am having issues parsing that reply...

Internet standard's sarcasm. Translation would be "lol, you're incredibly shameless when writing this, to a point where i just can't stop myself laughing while reading you."

I agree it was really difficult to understand it, you seem kinda anxious, doesn't help in communicating most of time. Nota bene : gentl sarcasm, i'm always amused when people posting a lot on the web do not know standard memes.

Why would I have any shame over the post? It was accurate, or are you really trying to dispute it? Why would I be anxious about it? Whilst I have a Scout he is not specced for Volley as that is not how I play my archer. Certainly I have concerns about all the forum bandwagons that have started to appear.

As for memes, perhaps it is a generation thing, or perhaps I am just not as fluent in gibberish as I thought ;-).

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:42 PM by Hejjin

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:13 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:45 PM
Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:32 PM
I agree. Groundassist with 6 catapault is way more affective (especially with splash damage).

Volley hitting 1 target per fire depends a lot more on luck. I guess the math could add up if you had more people volleying and they all got lucky and hit the same target (which is random afaik). The cat hits all in the area. Some mathematician can probably break out the trigonometry and come up with the answer :-)
To the best of my knowledge and belief, the exact diameter of the ground-target area is not listed, neither on the RA itself nor on the charplan RR description for Volley, which makes it rather hard to do the calculations ;-).

Its not really the area thats part of the equation. Its the fact that it only has the "chance" to hit 1 target in the area per round (5 rounds per 15 seconds... takes @ 5 seconds to setup the shot, then hitting the shots afterwards). Luck is involved to hit the same target in the area 5 times. You can increase your chance of hitting the target in that area by increasing the number of attackers (volley'ers :-) ). My point was that especially in a siege (zerg) environment, you are wayyyy better off bringing a cat and assisting other cat users. Find a juicy GT and assist. You hit ALL targets in the splash area, not just a "chance" to hit 1 target.

It is, the main keep towers are approx 1150 units by 1010 units. So if all archers are assisting one grountarget of course it impacts the calculations to determine the effectiveness of the volleys, at least unless the potential targets are all huddled together afk in one location...

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:43 PM by Leandrys

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:34 PM
Whilst I have a Scout he is not specced for Volley as that is not how I play my archer.

Oh ok, so you do not know how well this can work when people are starting to abuse of it, i understand why you had such a strange advice on Volley then, ty. =)

About what has been said earlier, the next balance problem caused by spam is GTAE.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:54 PM by Hejjin

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:43 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:34 PM
Whilst I have a Scout he is not specced for Volley as that is not how I play my archer.

Oh ok, so you do not know how well this can work when people are starting to abuse of it, i understand why you had such a strange advice on Volley then, ty. =)

Ye gods, I have a Scout, he was specced for Volley in OF as I mostly left him in 1 albion keep to use aginst the daily Hib zergs. I respecced after NF arrived. I have been on plenty of keep sieges across all my chars, and yes I have been on the receiving end of volleys, as I stated earlier I was on the receiving end of plenty of them in OF when volleys could hit anyone even inside a structure, so yes I do know how it works.

Again, I have never been on a keep siege where mass volleys have been the sole deciding factor in the success or failure of a siege. Yes, I have been forced onto the roof of keeps and the volleys made life harder for the defenders , but the main cause of that was due to people suiciding after/whilst dropping TWF/NM, so at best it was a contributing factor to the success/failure of the siege.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 4:51 PM by Gweinyth

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:43 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 3:34 PM
Whilst I have a Scout he is not specced for Volley as that is not how I play my archer.

Oh ok, so you do not know how well this can work when people are starting to abuse of it, i understand why you had such a strange advice on Volley then, ty. =)

About what has been said earlier, the next balance problem caused by spam is GTAE.

Just to try to understand. Will you be happy when all classes are the same and useless or just when no one can kill you?

Fri 26 Jul 2019 5:01 PM by Leandrys

Gweinyth wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 4:51 PM
Just to try to understand. Will you be happy when all classes are the same and useless or just when no one can kill you?

Lol ok, Gweinyth, you're totally out of discussion here, in fact it couldn't be worse, we're talking about spells shared by every realms, Volley + the soon to be discussions about GTAE, as specified, all of the realms have the same exact versions of these spells/skills, so your two questions are extremely out of topic, i'm not talking about one realm in specific, it's general abuse make possible by poor conception allowing a mass use of one skill to have way too much impact on mass RvR than any skill in the game should have. It began with TWF, but it was just the beginning, a lot of these shared spells are currently potential major issues for general balance.

For the record, my two mains on hib and alb are GTAE spammers, and my ranger almost is my second highest RR on hib, i'm kinda not really preaching for my own church, don't you think ?

Fri 26 Jul 2019 5:27 PM by Sleepwell

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 5:01 PM
Gweinyth wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 4:51 PM
Just to try to understand. Will you be happy when all classes are the same and useless or just when no one can kill you?

Lol ok, Gweinyth, you're totally out of discussion here, in fact it couldn't be worse, we're talking about spells shared by every realms, Volley + the soon to be discussions about GTAE, as specified, all of the realms have the same exact versions of these spells/skills, so your two questions are extremely out of topic, i'm not talking about one realm in specific, it's general abuse make possible by poor conception allowing a mass use of one skill to have way too much impact on mass RvR than any skill in the game should have. It began with TWF, but it was just the beginning, a lot of these shared spells are currently potential major issues for general balance.

For the record, my two mains on hib and alb are GTAE spammers, and my ranger almost is my second highest RR on hib, i'm kinda not really preaching for my own church, don't you think ?

You could see it like that, or you could have benefited from the use prior and now you've created a good distance and want to keep others from gaining RR using the same method.

I've always had a problem with major changes afterwards, especially when a large majority has benefited from something. New players, players who flip, etc, now have even larger hurdles to overcome. That works with plat farming, realm rank, and many other things.

I'm not saying thats completely the case. I can't blame you for using techniques that are in place.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 6:46 PM by Boltman

That's it, wet noodles for everyone!!! Let's turn this game into a water balloon fight where no one ever gets hurt and its only feelings that get hurt...

Nerf, nerf, nerf.. That's all I ever see any more.

Fri 26 Jul 2019 10:13 PM by Leandrys

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 5:27 PM
You could see it like that, or you could have benefited from the use prior and now you've created a good distance and want to keep others from gaining RR using the same method.

I've always had a problem with major changes afterwards, especially when a large majority has benefited from something. New players, players who flip, etc, now have even larger hurdles to overcome. That works with plat farming, realm rank, and many other things.

I'm not saying thats completely the case. I can't blame you for using techniques that are in place.

I often respec mana my eld, so no, i do not abuse, but even so, if we start thinking "yeah, ok, i totaly abuse of broken mechanics, but i've been doing so for so long, not gonna stop me now, right ?", well, let's just throw everything while shrugging critics and quickly kill the server.

Sat 27 Jul 2019 2:28 AM by relvinian

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 2:53 PM
So far the roof requirement seems to be sufficient.

Even if for some mysterious reason it becomes an issue by lots and lots more archers popping up and with their play style consisting of basically just volley assisting in keep fights, LoS will never be added to it as it goes completely against the spirit of the ability.

Couldn't the same be said about twf and animist shrooms?

Sat 27 Jul 2019 5:37 PM by

gruenesschaf

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 2:28 AM
Couldn't the same be said about twf and animist shrooms?

Neither change went against the spirit of the abilities and in both cases the point of it actually becoming an issue was reached.

Sat 27 Jul 2019 8:11 PM by florin

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 5:37 PM
relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 2:28 AM
Couldn't the same be said about twf and animist shrooms?

Neither change went against the spirit of the abilities and in both cases the point of it actually becoming an issue was reached.

Where does gtaoe spam sit? Towers and keeps have become undefendable again.

Sat 27 Jul 2019 10:02 PM by Slap

I feel as if the OP is a bit too emotional and doesn't critique volley as an ability with accuracy. Nonetheless his issue is common. As a caster my bolts hit other templated/buffed casters for around 350-400 with a cool down of 20 seconds. All the while volley hits me (templated and buffed) for 300-350 minimum over and over. Multiply that by a few archers and its insta-death, there is no running out of it regardless of armor type. Many times there has been entire keep defenses hiding in the lord room from the offensive zerg's archers. To be able to hit for 350 per shot, about every second with the right RAs, at higher than ns and even /face range, it is nearly impossible to have a defense on the postern or roof. Unless there is a hefty defense, a group of archers can clear an entire roof in less than a minute. It has happened in every keep/tower defense where there is less defenders. There is a reason on other servers that volley has a cooldown and hits for 100-150... When it's one archer and you have a healer it isn't an issue in most instances where you can move or get heals, the issue lies in the fact that rangers and hunters are becoming some of the most populated classes on the server and volley assist trains are making successful keep defenses very unlikely, and not fun at all. Please consider making some type of change because right now, the defenders that don't have higher numbers only option is to hide in the lord room.

Edit: pic

Sat 27 Jul 2019 10:45 PM by kiectred

Slap wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 10:02 PM
I feel as if the OP is a bit too emotional and doesn't critique volley as an ability with accuracy. Nonetheless his issue is common. As a caster my bolts hit other templated/buffed casters for around 350-400 with a cool down of 20 seconds. All the while volley hits me (templated and buffed) for 300-350 minimum over and over. Multiply that by a few archers and its insta-death, there is no running out of it regardless of armor type. Many times there has been entire keep defenses hiding in the lord room from the offensive zerg's archers. To be able to hit for 350 per shot, about every second with the right RAs, at higher than ns and even /face range, it is nearly impossible to have a defense on the postern or roof. Unless there is a hefty defense, a group of archers can clear an entire roof in less than a minute. It has happened in every keep/tower defense where there is less defenders. There is a reason on other servers that volley has a cooldown and hits for 100-150... When it's one archer and you have a healer it isn't an issue in most instances where you can move or get heals, the issue lies in the fact that rangers and hunters are becoming some of the most populated classes on the server and volley assist trains are making successful keep defenses very unlikely, and not fun at all. Please consider making some type of change because right now, the defenders that don't have higher numbers only option is to hide in the lord room.

Edit: pic

This is why range and cooldown are things I suggested. I don't think damage should be changed. If anything, range and cooldown only (not necessarily both, but whatever).

Sun 28 Jul 2019 2:18 AM by Strays

I don't understand why volley fires faster than bow speed (1s/shot, instead of bowspeed/shot) -- and doesn't require LOS to your ground target to shoot.

If both of those were changed volley would be fine..

Sun 28 Jul 2019 5:39 AM by bm01

It would actually be useless if LoS was required.
Thing is, unless I'm misunderstanding something, volley is kind of meh if there are multiple targets, but is extremely powerful if there are only a few. They seem to be magical guided arrows, and never hit the ground.
Well, I suppose they do miss, but the fact that being alone gives higher chances to get hit (from my experience) makes no sense.

Sun 28 Jul 2019 7:24 AM by Hejjin

Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 2:18 AM
I don't understand why volley fires faster than bow speed (1s/shot, instead of bowspeed/shot) -- and doesn't require LOS to your ground target to shoot.

If both of those were changed volley would be fine..

You have an interesting definition of "fine". That line of sight requirement for Volley would then render it useless in the majority of keep sieges, it is already useless in skirmishes out in the open, so where exactly could / would volley be used?

Edit :
As for your first point about the speed of launching the arrows, I would certainly not object if it was changed to launching ALL arrows at the same time at the end of the volley rather than sequentially firing them, that would actually bring Volley into line with its animation which clearly shows ALL arrows knocked and ready to fire...

Sun 28 Jul 2019 7:47 AM by Hejjin

Slap wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 10:02 PM
I feel as if the OP is a bit too emotional and doesn't critique volley as an ability with accuracy. Nonetheless his issue is common. As a caster my bolts hit other templated/buffed casters for around 350-400 with a cool down of 20 seconds. All the while volley hits me (templated and buffed) for 300-350 minimum over and over.
snip

You conveniently ignore that your Bolts are part of your spec or baselines and are not Realm Abilities. You also conveniently ignore that the maximum number of targets that your AoEs can hit is not limited, unlike archers where Volley is limited to a max of 5 targets per 15 seconds.

I have not commented on the majority of your post as most of the points raised have been covered elsewhere, though I agree your have some validity.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 10:02 PM
Edit: pic

Whilst it might be titled archers, it is only showing 2 of the 3 archer classes, what were the scout numbers? The reality is that Rangers have been a popular class for quite some time, and the number of Hunters increased substantially after the ranger/hunter spell lines were buffed to compensate for the changes to buff pots, Hunter pets were also buffed substantially, the combination of those two buffs increased the hunter population before mass volleys became popular.

Sun 28 Jul 2019 8:11 AM by Patron

Everything get nerfed... Just because bad players crieng.
#suckersgonasuck

Just imagine, there is 1 player and this player try to defend a keep/tower against 24 players. 3 of 24 players are archer. The 3 archer assist and killing him instantly. So our lonely ungrouped player start a QQ on forum.
Listen: you cant defend a keep with this ratio of numbers. Get a group, get a guard, kill from windows or change your positions, than bad archer cant hit u.

And archer have already a rough life.
Nerf is always a reason player leave. So better no nerf, thx.

Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:50 AM by Strays

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 7:24 AM
Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 2:18 AM
I don't understand why volley fires faster than bow speed (1s/shot, instead of bowspeed/shot) -- and doesn't require LOS to your ground target to shoot.

If both of those were changed volley would be fine..
You have an interesting definition of "fine". That line of sight requirement for Volley would then render it useless in the majority of keep sieges, it is already useless in skirmishes out in the open, so where exactly could / would volley be used?

Edit :
As for your first point about the speed of launching the arrows, I would certainly not object if it was changed to launching ALL arrows at the same time at the end of the volley rather than sequentially firing them, that would actually bring Volley into line with its animation which clearly shows ALL arrows knocked and ready to fire...

I agree that we do have differing opinions. It appears that you believe you should be able to hit people for 500 damage per second per archer using volley while 100% outside of LOS of their ground target. I do not.

Volley is /heavily/ over performing atm. 3 archers assisting off a ground target is literally instant assassination with zero warning of being targeted from 1500-2500 range. A volley 8man (alb does frequently) can take out literally anyone in one spray of arrows, every second, five times with no cost (outside of RA's) -- while outside of LOS entirely. As in, standing inside a tower where you cannot be hit killing between 2-8 people /a second/ for 5 seconds in defense with a coordinated 8man.

My proposal was a way to turn volley from /the literal strongest keep defense RA in the entire game period/ to a strong ability that has risk versus reward and the ability to counterplay.

Sun 28 Jul 2019 11:09 AM by kiectred

Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:50 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 7:24 AM
Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 2:18 AM
I don't understand why volley fires faster than bow speed (1s/shot, instead of bowspeed/shot) -- and doesn't require LOS to your ground target to shoot.

If both of those were changed volley would be fine..
You have an interesting definition of "fine". That line of sight requirement for Volley would then render it useless in the majority of keep sieges, it is already useless in skirmishes out in the open, so where exactly could / would volley be used?

Edit :
As for your first point about the speed of launching the arrows, I would certainly not object if it was changed to launching ALL arrows at the same time at the end of the volley rather than sequentially firing them, that would actually bring Volley into line with its animation which clearly shows ALL arrows knocked and ready to fire...

I agree that we do have differing opinions. It appears that you believe you should be able to hit people for 500 damage per second per archer using volley while 100% outside of LOS of their ground target. I do not.

Volley is /heavily/ over performing atm. 3 archers assisting off a ground target is literally instant assassination with zero warning of being targeted from 1500-2500 range. A volley 8man (alb does frequently) can take out literally anyone in one spray of arrows, every second, five times with no cost (outside of RA's) -- while outside of LOS entirely. As in, standing inside a tower where you cannot be hit killing between 2-8 people /a second/ for 5 seconds in defense with a coordinated 8man.

My proposal was a way to turn volley from /the literal strongest keep defense RA in the entire game period/ to a strong ability that has risk versus reward and the ability to counterplay.

You make some good points, even if they're exaggerated some. However, your proposal would not turn it into "a strong ability that has risk versus reward" - it would totally destroy it and render it useless. Fortunately, devs have spoken and understand this already.

Sun 28 Jul 2019 11:21 AM by Hejjin

Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:50 AM
I agree that we do have differing opinions. It appears that you believe you should be able to hit people for 500 damage per second per archer using volley while 100% outside of LOS of their ground target. I do not.

Volley is 5 shots over 15 seconds, do the math, evenIF all shots hit a target (very unlikely) it is not 500 per second. I also like how you have conveniently substantially rounded up the damage of Volley.

Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:50 AM
Volley is /heavily/ over performing atm. 3 archers assisting off a ground target is literally instant assassination/

The chances for all 3 archers to launch their shots at the same time and for ALL their shots to hit the same target is low. So no, it can be called many things, but it is not instant, perhaps you need to review the definition of that particular word.

Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:50 AM
A volley 8man (alb does frequently) can take out literally anyone in one spray of arrows, every second, five times with no cost (outside of RA's) -- while outside of LOS entirely. As in, standing inside a tower where you cannot be hit killing between 2-8 people /a second/ for 5 seconds in defense with a coordinated 8man.

I have zero issues with volley being changed so that an archer cannot launch the volley from the safety of some room in a tower, my personal opinion is that there needs to be 4000 units of sky above both the archer and the target. As for your reference to Alb, the archer population in Albion is significantly lower than that of Hib and Mid for the reasons I mentioned previously.

Strays wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:50 AM
My proposal was a way to turn volley from /the literal strongest keep defense RA in the entire game period/ to a strong ability that has risk versus reward and the ability to counterplay.

Except it would not be a strong ability after the LoS change, it has no place in open field battles/skirmishes due to the requirement to remain stationary and how easy it is to interrupt, and it would be useless in keep sieges, so where exactly would / could it be used? There are a number of things that could be adjusted (reuse time between volleys, the area of the groundtarget) that would lower the impact of Volley in keep siges that would not render the RA totally worthless.

Sun 28 Jul 2019 11:38 AM by Leandrys

And that's why cooldown nerf is the best fix. =)

Sun 28 Jul 2019 12:12 PM by Stoertebecker

Patron wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 8:11 AM
Everything get nerfed... Just because bad players crieng.
#suckersgonasuck

Thats the meta in all mmorpg`s i´ve played since 2001.

If you wanna have volley nerfed, then it`s time to talk about katapults.
You can`t defend a place if there are 3-1x catapults assisting...nerf it.
Open a gate without a ram , just with catapults and petspam....nerf it.

Nerf assist trains in general, what a lousy mechanic assisting with 4 tanks on 1 caster/healer/whatever...

Only 1 player on 1 target, the others have to take a number !

Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM by Slap

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 7:47 AM
Slap wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 10:02 PM
I feel as if the OP is a bit too emotional and doesn't critique volley as an ability with accuracy. Nonetheless his issue is common. As a caster my bolts hit other templated/buffed casters for around 350-400 with a cool down of 20 seconds. All the while volley hits me (templated and buffed) for 300-350 minimum over and over.
snip
You conveniently ignore that your Bolts are part of your spec or baselines and are not Realm Abilities. You also conveniently ignore that the maximum number of targets that your AoEs can hit is not limited, unlike archers where Volley is limited to a max of 5 targets per 15 seconds.

I have not commented on the majority of your post as most of the points raised have been covered elsewhere, though I agree your have some validity.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 10:02 PM
Edit: pic
Whilst it might be titled archers, it is only showing 2 of the 3 archer classes, what were the scout numbers? The reality is that Rangers have been a popular class for quite some time, and the number of Hunters increased substantially after the ranger/hunter spell lines were buffed to compensate for the changes to buff pots, Hunter pets were also buffed substantially, the combination of those two buffs increased the hunter population before mass volleys became popular.

So, because its a one-time 8 point realm ability there is no reason for a cool down or dmg nerf? Also, my gtaoe's/aoe's have cool downs and LoS requirements along with hitting for 150-200 dmg less. As for the reasons for them being played the most, I'm not sure, it may be along the lines of - "I get stealth, studded, melee, 1 second per shot 350 dmg 3000-3500+ unit ranged abilities, and stuns. Why would I ever play a caster that is squishy and hits for less?"

We just tested this ability on a 50 hunter (2100 base range) and with elevation he was hitting me from 3650 units. There is also a way to make volley shoot every second if you don't automatically release your shot and reload.

On the topic of catapults, there is a reason they hit for much less at a rate of 10 seconds per shot.

Sun 28 Jul 2019 11:04 PM by Sleepwell

Whats the reason?

I hate being hit in the lord room on my healer by a gtaoe. No way to defend vs that except moving, but i guess everyone has that option. One thing they got right on volley. Should not be able to rain down arrows into a covered structure. I guess if you look at it that way, then this could be the cart before the horse. Raining down any damage, magic or arrows ... should that work in a covered structure? That why these discussions always lead down a path that no one wants. I'm fine with the discussions, but opinions vary across the board. If everyone got what they wanted, we'd all be beating on each other with sticks

Mon 29 Jul 2019 9:44 AM by Hejjin

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
So, because its a one-time 8 point realm ability there is no reason for a cool down or dmg nerf?

No, I just despise forum bandwagons calling for things to be nerfed, so far the things nerfed after the forum bandwagons appear to be victims of an over-reaction from the devs. Some of the changes suggested in this particular thread would render Volley totally and utterly worthless.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
Also, my gtaoe's/aoe's have cool downs and LoS requirements along with hitting for 150-200 dmg less.

Do all AoE's / GTAoE's have LoS requirements? If so, I do wonder how I have managed to be hit with them inside of keep structures? As for the damage, again an AoE /GTAoE can hit unlimited targets within a targeted area, whereas volley can hit a maximum of 5, though when I was specced for volley on my scout that rarely happened.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
As for the reasons for them being played the most, I'm not sure, it may be along the lines of - "I get stealth, studded, melee, 1 second per shot 350 dmg 3000-3500+ unit ranged abilities, and stuns. Why would I ever play a caster that is squishy and hits for less?"

Rangers were popular long before mass volleys became popular. Mass volleys, other than on the Molvik weekend, really only started after NF arrived.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
We just tested this ability on a 50 hunter (2100 base range) and with elevation he was hitting me from 3650 units. There is also a way to make volley shoot every second if you don't automatically release your shot and reload.

As for your 1 shot every second for 350 damage, than conveniently ignores the 5 seconds to ready volley, and it also needs perfect timing (and good latency) to knock / fire each subsequent arrow. Where range is concerned, yes the archer having a height advantage over the target can increase the range. Given that most of the complaints have come from defenders on the roofs of the keep, the archers hitting that area would not have a range advantage.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
On the topic of catapults, there is a reason they hit for much less at a rate of 10 seconds per shot.

Catapults can hit more targets in the area that the shot lands. Is the damage really much less? I have not actually used a catapult since Molvik weekend so I cannot remember what the numbers were, though I have used keep artillery and they are certainly not hitting for "much less".

Mon 29 Jul 2019 9:44 AM by kiectred

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 11:04 PM
we'd all be beating on each other with sticks

#JustFriarThings

Mon 29 Jul 2019 2:08 PM by Vlas

bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:42 AM
The fix is to nerf it so people can actually defend a keep, like I said I am sorry we cannot agree since you like cheese mechanics and I like fair ones. Btw I have played multiple archers to rr6+ without needing to abuse volley assist to do it. I think I have a valid perspective on this since I have gotten ranks the legit way most of the time by myself. IMO like i said numerous times, if an archer exposes himself to shoot you that allows for counterplay, you can even have multiple archers do it with normal shots to wreck people and guess what... its FAIR that way.

So you don't want someone shooting you so you can defend and freecast on the enemy from above when melee can't hit you ? Please learn to move to another spot as volley don't cover the whole roof stop wanting to nerf everything in the game who know you maybe next on the nerf. Whats next on your list to nerf GTAOE?

Mon 29 Jul 2019 2:42 PM by florin

Vlas wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 2:08 PM
bishibosh wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Jul 2019 8:42 AM
The fix is to nerf it so people can actually defend a keep, like I said I am sorry we cannot agree since you like cheese mechanics and I like fair ones. Btw I have played multiple archers to rr6+ without needing to abuse volley assist to do it. I think I have a valid perspective on this since I have gotten ranks the legit way most of the time by myself. IMO like i said numerous times, if an archer exposes himself to shoot you that allows for counterplay, you can even have multiple archers do it with normal shots to wreck people and guess what... its FAIR that way.

So you don't want someone shooting you so you can defend and freecast on the enemy from above when melee can't hit you ? Please learn to move to another spot as volley don't cover the whole roof stop wanting to nerf everything in the game who know you maybe next on the nerf. Whats next on your list to nerf GTAOE?

Yes GTAOE should be next

Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:40 PM by Leandrys

Hehe, i've said so.

Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM by bm01

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 9:44 AM
As for your 1 shot every second for 350 damage, than conveniently ignores the 5 seconds to ready volley
...

Based on my experience a few days ago, these 5 seconds don't really matter.

Firstly, as soon as I get hit by volley, which I cannot prevent since there's no visual indication that I'm going to get hit unless I happen to spot the archer behind the tree or something, I know I won't get out of the area with more than ~1/3 of my total HP (note that I'm wearing chain and using a shield), and that my healer will barely have the time to react before it ends. I saw plenty of cloth wearers getting killed in less than 2 seconds while being alone at that spot, and that simply shouldn't be possible. This isn't directly an issue with volley DPS, but the way it "targets" people I think. If I'm not mistaken, there were 2 rangers.

Secondly, 5 seconds is way shorter than the time it takes me to find a good window to throw some AoE from the wall. In fact, half of it is roughly how much times it takes me to cast one AoE, which leaves me 2.5 seconds to observe, target, and position myself. There were moments where I simply couldn't cast more than one spell even though I kept moving from one side to another.

I see people comparing volley to catapults. There were catapults too, 4 of them. I maybe got hit twice. They are slow, visible and do maybe what, the damage of 2 arrows?

It makes sense that volley is better than catapults since it costs points. But the same way we saw people playing classes only because of TWF, we're starting to see people playing archers only because of volley.

Mon 29 Jul 2019 9:32 PM by Stoertebecker

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 9:44 AM
As for your 1 shot every second for 350 damage, than conveniently ignores the 5 seconds to ready volley
...
But the same way we saw people playing classes only because of TWF, we're starting to see people playing archers only because of volley.

Ever asked yourself why ppl playing classes with such abilities?
Because they can do something useful in a keep/tower attack/defense. Playing a tank in such situations is..... * oh, but you can sit in a ram and gank the lord a bit*...meh.

TWF and Volley is available to all 3 realms, and while a twf nerf was badly needed it is a bit different with volley.
You could just use your own archers to volley other archers or katapults, strategy isn`t a barbeque sauce.

And to twf, i can speak for Midgard only.
The BD recieved a massice hit with the nerfbat as they nerfed the pets, now they`ve got another one with the twf nerf.

Do you know what will happen if all those bd`s spec only twf 1 for rupts and the saved points into ra`s like PD and high purge?
Will be fun for every solo/duo player/s, more than it is already.

Tue 30 Jul 2019 7:27 AM by Hejjin

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
Based on my experience a few days ago, these 5 seconds don't really matter.

The accuracy of the statement matters, it is not 350 damage every second when the absolute maximum fire-rate of volley would be 5 shots over 10 seconds due to the 5 seconds readying to fire.

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
Firstly, as soon as I get hit by volley, which I cannot prevent since there's no visual indication that I'm going to get hit unless I happen to spot the archer behind the tree or something, I know I won't get out of the area with more than ~1/3 of my total HP (note that I'm wearing chain and using a shield),

You should have waited until you reached level 45 to go up on the roof... On a more serious note, how many archers were volleying into the area that you are just barely surviving? If you are going to claim 2 or 3, then I simply do not believe it. I have been on enough rooftops on my Friar, Scout or Reaver when only a small number of archers were volleying into the area. I do not believe that Volley covers the entire area of the keep roof.

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
and that my healer will barely have the time to react before it ends.

If there are more than a couple of archers, then yes, it is incredibly difficult, even more so if there are catapults firing on to it, or GTAoE's hitting it..

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
I saw plenty of cloth wearers getting killed in less than 2 seconds while being alone at that spot, and that simply shouldn't be possible.

As someone that extensively used volley in OF on my scout whilst defending Alb keeps against the Hib zerg, I struggle to believe that due to how rarely my volley hit the same person more than twice in the same volley round. Has their been a recent change to volley targetting?

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
This isn't directly an issue with volley DPS, but the way it "targets" people I think. If I'm not mistaken, there were 2 rangers.

Again, I struggle to believe that only 2 archers cause so many issues, though 2 archers when combined with 4 catapults would be very effective.

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
Secondly, 5 seconds is way shorter than the time it takes me to find a good window to throw some AoE from the wall. In fact, half of it is roughly how much times it takes me to cast one AoE, which leaves me 2.5 seconds to observe, target, and position myself. There were moments where I simply couldn't cast more than one spell even though I kept moving from one side to another.

Chain wearer and Shield user throwing AoEs? So obviously you are a Thane? I actually agree with this point, I have had issues when my Reaver or Scout is on the roof trying to get spells/arrows off.

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
I see people comparing volley to catapults. There were catapults too, 4 of them. I maybe got hit twice. They are slow, visible and do maybe what, the damage of 2 arrows?

The comparison to catapults (and AoE/GTAoE) is because there is no limit to the number of targets hit per firing of the catapult/AoE, so whilst each shot might do less damage, it can do far more total damage because it is not limited to only 5 targets.

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 8:47 PM
It makes sense that volley is better than catapults since it costs points. But the same way we saw people playing classes only because of TWF, we're starting to see people playing archers only because of volley.

There are areas of volley than can/should be addressed, but some of the changes in this thread would render Volley so worthless that no one would bother wasting their points on it.

Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM by Slap

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 9:44 AM
Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
So, because its a one-time 8 point realm ability there is no reason for a cool down or dmg nerf?
No, I just despise forum bandwagons calling for things to be nerfed, so far the things nerfed after the forum bandwagons appear to be victims of an over-reaction from the devs. Some of the changes suggested in this particular thread would render Volley totally and utterly worthless.

To be fully anti-nerf means that balancing the server is not in your best interest. Having said that, I'm not for the suggested nerf of LoS. Volley is a viable skill and that has never been how volley has worked, it also does not go along with the general idea of volleying arrows.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
Also, my gtaoe's/aoe's have cool downs and LoS requirements along with hitting for 150-200 dmg less.
Do all AoE's / GTAoE's have LoS requirements? If so, I do wonder how I have managed to be hit with them inside of keep structures? As for the damage, again an AoE /GTAoE can hit unlimited targets within a targeted area, whereas volley can hit a maximum of 5, though when I was specced for volley on my scout that rarely happened.

GTAoE has a cool down and AoE's require LoS. My point was damage difference. Not sure if you've participated in keep/tower defense or have used volley recently. It only hits one player at a time but with full bow damage every 1 second.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
As for the reasons for them being played the most, I'm not sure, it may be along the lines of - "I get stealth, studded, melee, 1 second per shot 350 dmg 3000-3500+ unit ranged abilities, and stuns. Why would I ever play a caster that is squishy and hits for less?"
Rangers were popular long before mass volleys became popular. Mass volleys, other than on the Molvik weekend, really only started after NF arrived.

The issue with NF is that there is little overhead cover where as in OF every keep had multiple roofs to hide under and still have LoS to defend. The corner towers of keeps and the Lord room is the only place to get out of volley and you lose LoS for any type of defensive maneuvers. As for towers, there is no defensive position out of volley.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
We just tested this ability on a 50 hunter (2100 base range) and with elevation he was hitting me from 3650 units. There is also a way to make volley shoot every second if you don't automatically release your shot and reload.
As for your 1 shot every second for 350 damage, than conveniently ignores the 5 seconds to ready volley, and it also needs perfect timing (and good latency) to knock / fire each subsequent arrow. Where range is concerned, yes the archer having a height advantage over the target can increase the range. Given that most of the complaints have come from defenders on the roofs of the keep, the archers hitting that area would not have a range advantage.

Five seconds to engage means nothing when you can either do it in stealth or outside of /face. JSYK the range without elevation is 3k, add the 350 unit radius and you're unable to be faced. As for the "perfect timing and good latency" the hunter I was testing with could do it the first time he tried. Full damage rapid fire is as simple as activating the shot and releasing instead of reloading. Not hard at all.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
On the topic of catapults, there is a reason they hit for much less at a rate of 10 seconds per shot.
Catapults can hit more targets in the area that the shot lands. Is the damage really much less? I have not actually used a catapult since Molvik weekend so I cannot remember what the numbers were, though I have used keep artillery and they are certainly not hitting for "much less".

Yes, catapults hit for around 150 dmg less and require to be aimed to new groundtargets for 10s and then another 10s between shots. Pali's and treb's hit harder.

------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems as if you haven't played much recently with all of the questions, please do your research before spreading misinformation and defending a point that you have no idea about.

In our most recent keep defense of Bolg, 4 volley assist archers killed over 15+ people on the roof that were trying to defend. Including myself in less than 2 seconds. Yet again, everyone had to hide in the Lord room and were useless while the enemies were in the courtyard. This is every keep/tower defense. Volley is a problem and it's custom mechanics on this server is broken. In 18 years volley has never hit as hard as regular bow damage or at 1 second every shot, or without a cool down. To be able to rapid fire for full damage, outside of face range, with no cooldown is, like I've said, utterly broken.

This will be my last post on this subject. A solution would be to decrease the range to archer base range (2100 for hunters, 2200 for rangers, and 2300 for scouts), decrease the damage from full bow damage, make it an AoE, remove the rapid fire bug, and give it a cooldown. This has been the volley mechanic for every freeshard that I've played and live works in the same way. Thanks all.

Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:45 PM by relvinian

i considered making a ranger but i was 100% sure volley will be nerfed.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 12:17 AM by bm01

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 7:27 AM
The accuracy of the statement matters, it is not 350 damage every second when the absolute maximum fire-rate of volley would be 5 shots over 10 seconds due to the 5 seconds readying to fire.

But 5 shots over 10 seconds isn't the same as 5 shots over 5 seconds + 5 seconds of cooldown. DPS is calculated when you start taking damage and stops when... Well, when it's relevant. I'm not saying the cooldown doesn't matter, but it could be 5, 10 or even 15 seconds, and it wouldn't really change your odds of killing people. It isn't absurd to say that volley's DPS is 5 arrows over 5 seconds.

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 7:27 AM
As someone that extensively used volley in OF on my scout whilst defending Alb keeps against the Hib zerg, I struggle to believe that due to how rarely my volley hit the same person more than twice in the same volley round. Has their been a recent change to volley targetting?

I'll have to take a screenshot then, because I get hit two or three times in a row, by the same guy, quite often.

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 7:27 AM
The comparison to catapults (and AoE/GTAoE) is because there is no limit to the number of targets hit per firing of the catapult/AoE, so whilst each shot might do less damage, it can do far more total damage because it is not limited to only 5 targets.

Total damage doesn't matter much. Let's say I hit 15 people for 250 damage, that would be 3750 damage, but what would it achieve exactly? AoE and catapults don't really kill people, they mostly force people to stop what they're currently doing. The fact that volley isn't an AoE is actually what makes it strong (that and its range, and rate of fire, and no LoS requirement but that makes sense because it's a volley after all...).

Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:41 AM by

gruenesschaf

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
Volley is a problem and it's custom mechanics on this server is broken. In 18 years volley has never hit as hard as regular bow damage or at 1 second every shot, or without a cool down. To be able to rapid fire for full damage, outside of face range, with no cooldown is, like I've said, utterly broken.

This will be my last post on this subject. A solution would be to decrease the range to archer base range (2100 for hunters, 2200 for rangers, and 2300 for scouts), decrease the damage from full bow damage, make it an AoE, remove the rapid fire bug, and give it a cooldown. This has been the volley mechanic for every freeshard that I've played and live works in the same way. Thanks all.

This is afaik how old volley worked. 15 second cooldown, 5 arrows, 1 second delay between each, no los, clipping range (although the old clipping range which was about 3500ish?), normal bow damage, 50% chance per arrow per target in the area to become a valid target, if there were any valid targets a random one of them is hit by that arrow.
Custom nerfs here so far: roofs protect against it and the range is reduced to normal bow range including elevation bonus.
Primary and really only source found that actually included details: https://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=201684 then some whine posts on freddyshouse around 1.62 when it was changed to penetrate all bladeturns, those at least make the information in the french thread seem correct.

And the without cooldown remark, excerpt of 1.60:
- Volley has had its cost reduced to 8 points and its reuse time is now 15 seconds, significantly shorter than before. A refund is granted for players who have already purchased it.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:47 AM by

gruenesschaf

relvinian wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:45 PM
i considered making a ranger but i was 100% sure volley will be nerfed.

Probably a smart decision, poor enchanters though.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 7:05 AM by Hejjin

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:41 AM
Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
Volley is a problem and it's custom mechanics on this server is broken. In 18 years volley has never hit as hard as regular bow damage or at 1 second every shot, or without a cool down. To be able to rapid fire for full damage, outside of face range, with no cooldown is, like I've said, utterly broken.

This will be my last post on this subject. A solution would be to decrease the range to archer base range (2100 for hunters, 2200 for rangers, and 2300 for scouts), decrease the damage from full bow damage, make it an AoE, remove the rapid fire bug, and give it a cooldown. This has been the volley mechanic for every freeshard that I've played and live works in the same way. Thanks all.

This is afaik how old volley worked. 15 second cooldown, 5 arrows, 1 second delay between each, no los, clipping range (although the old clipping range which was about 3500ish?), normal bow damage, 50% chance per arrow per target in the area to become a valid target, if there were any valid targets a random one of them is hit by that arrow.
Custom nerfs here so far: roofs protect against it and the range is reduced to normal bow range including elevation bonus.
Primary and really only source found that actually included details: https://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=201684 then some whine posts on freddyshouse around 1.62 when it was changed to penetrate all bladeturns, those at least make the information in the french thread seem correct.

And the without cooldown remark, excerpt of 1.60:
- Volley has had its cost reduced to 8 points and its reuse time is now 15 seconds, significantly shorter than before. A refund is granted for players who have already purchased it.

Thanks for the information, can you confirm the diameter of the Volley grountarget area?

Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:01 AM by Hejjin

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
To be fully anti-nerf means that balancing the server is not in your best interest.

Let me clarify, I am against the forum bandwagons calling for nerfs, the success of each bandwagon will result in more appearing.

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
Having said that, I'm not for the suggested nerf of LoS. Volley is a viable skill and that has never been how volley has worked, it also does not go along with the general idea of volleying arrows.

That seems to be contradicted by what Gruen has posted.

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
Also, my gtaoe's/aoe's have cool downs and LoS requirements along with hitting for 150-200 dmg less.

GTAoE has a cool down and AoE's require LoS. My point was damage difference. Not sure if you've participated in keep/tower defense or have used volley recently. It only hits one player at a time but with full bow damage every 1 second.

Volley has a cool-down, 5 shots in 15 seconds. Yes your AoE / GTAoE does less damage per hit, but the number of targets is not capped at 5 per cast of the AoE, so potentially you can do far more damage than an archer does per volley.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
The issue with NF is that there is little overhead cover where as in OF every keep had multiple roofs to hide under and still have LoS to defend. The corner towers of keeps and the Lord room is the only place to get out of volley and you lose LoS for any type of defensive maneuvers. As for towers, there is no defensive position out of volley.

I am not sure of the exact area of coverage of volley as it is not listed either on the charplan or on the in game realm ability description, so I honestly have no idea if a single volley can cover the entire area of the keep roof. Personally I think one of the defensive issues on the main NF keep towers is that they have the 4 raised corner platforms that cannot be used to place catapults. The addition of the catapults (1 per corner platform) would certainly help the defenders.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
Five seconds to engage means nothing when you can either do it in stealth or outside of /face.

The stealth issue would only be for the initial launch of volley, you need to be out of combat before you can restealth. I tested this in OF, I was never out of combat long enough to regain stealth before I could use my next volley. Your point about /face is valid. As I stated earlier, I would not be adverse to volley being changed so that both the archer and the potential targets require 4000 units of sky above them

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
JSYK the range without elevation is 3k

Have you tested this, because again it contradicts what Gruen has posted. I will respec volley and test it out on target dummies, as I not convinced it is accurate.

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
add the 350 unit radius and you're unable to be faced.

As stated above, I am not sure of the exact area of coverage, if 700 diameter is accurate then a single grountarget would not even cover the entire rooftop of the outer keep towers, let alone the rooftop of the main keep towers. If all archers are /groundassist off a single groundtarget then there should be areas of the keep roof that are not affected by volley.

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
As for the "perfect timing and good latency" the hunter I was testing with could do it the first time he tried. Full damage rapid fire is as simple as activating the shot and releasing instead of reloading. Not hard at all.

I agree, doing it once in testing is not hard at all. Can your hunter do that repeatedly in a siege situation? I know from when I was specced in volley during OF and I was defending alb keeps against the 100+ Hib zergs it was not always possible.

Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
It seems as if you haven't played much recently with all of the questions, please do your research before spreading misinformation and defending a point that you have no idea about.

I ask question about areas I am unsure of, I have no interest in casters, so I am unsure of the cool-downs or LoS requirements of AoE's / GTAoEs. I notice your conveniently did not answer my point about being hit by GTAoE's inside keep structures...Some of the other question are down to the sheer number of changes that have occurred on the server, unless you are on every day checking /servernews it can be easy to miss changes. I have no issues with admitting when I am wrong, but if you look through this thread there have but a number of huge exaggerations made by people trying to get volley nerfed into oblivion.

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
In our most recent keep defense of Bolg, 4 volley assist archers killed over 15+ people on the roof that were trying to defend. Including myself in less than 2 seconds. Yet again, everyone had to hide in the Lord room and were useless while the enemies were in the courtyard. This is every keep/tower defense. Volley is a problem and it's custom mechanics on this server is broken. In 18 years volley has never hit as hard as regular bow damage or at 1 second every shot, or without a cool down. To be able to rapid fire for full damage, outside of face range, with no cooldown is, like I've said, utterly broken.

If all the archers were volley assisting from one grountarget a 350 radius volley would not cover the entire area of the rooftop of a main keep tower or even the outer

Slap wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Jul 2019 10:57 PM
This will be my last post on this subject. A solution would be to decrease the range to archer base range (2100 for hunters, 2200 for rangers, and 2300 for scouts), decrease the damage from full bow damage, make it an AoE, remove the rapid fire bug, and give it a cooldown. This has been the volley mechanic for every freeshard that I've played and live works in the same way. Thanks all.

I rarely play my scout, so I am not even sure what the rapid fire bug is . I have zero issues with having its range capped (though I honestly believe it is, at least on flat ground), and I believe it would be much better as an actual AoE than as 5 shots fired sequentially, and I have little issue with a cooldown, but the devil is in the detail, what would be the length of the cool-down and what would be the maximum number of target hit in the AoE?

Edit :
I have just completed 20 volleys at the target dummies outside camelot, with the ground -target set on the level 30 training dummy, out of 100 hits only dummies level 10 through to level 40 were hit. The level 5 Training dummy is approx 350 units from the level 30 dummy (349.5 measured via /gtrange). The distance from the centre of the level 45 dummy to the centre of the level 30 dummy is approx 340 units, therefore I believe the radius of volley must be at maximum 350. The main keep tower is approx 1150 units by 1010 units, the outer towers are approx 795 units by 795 units. So even on the smaller outer towers a single volley cannot cover the entire area of the roof, so ifall the archers really are volley assisting there are areas that can be moved to.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:23 AM by Hejjin

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 12:17 AM
But 5 shots over 10 seconds isn't the same as 5 shots over 5 seconds + 5 seconds of cooldown. DPS is calculated when you start taking damage and stops when... Well, when it's relevant. I'm not saying the cooldown doesn't matter, but it could be 5, 10 or even 15 seconds, and it wouldn't really change your odds of killing people. It isn't absurd to say that volley's DPS is 5 arrows over 5 seconds.

Whilst you are correct that it can be 5 shots in 5 seconds from the moment volley is ready to fire, it is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as you are hitting a maximum of 5 targets every 15 seconds per volley, as it needs the initial 5 seconds and then there is the wait for the next volley after the last arrow is fired.

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 12:17 AM
Total damage doesn't matter much. Let's say I hit 15 people for 250 damage, that would be 3750 damage, but what would it achieve exactly? AoE and catapults don't really kill people, they mostly force people to stop what they're currently doing.

Of course the total damage matters, but there is also the issue that the damage, any damage, can be used to interrupt the casters / healers and prevent them for casting for 2 seconds per hit. If catapult firing was coordinated with timed and staggered firing in a similar way that Clerics timed the Complete Heal rotation in early Everquest raids then it would be possible to totally prevent any caster / healer on the roof of a tower from ever being able to cast a spell.

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 12:17 AM
The fact that volley isn't an AoE is actually what makes it strong (that and its range, and rate of fire, and no LoS requirement but that makes sense because it's a volley after all...).

I disagree, I believe it would be better as an actual AoE, even if the AoE was still limited to 5 targets per volley.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:56 AM by Hejjin

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:41 AM
snip...
Custom nerfs here so far: roofs protect against it and the range is reduced to normal bow range including elevation bonus.
snip...

I just respecced my scout and tested volley range. It is indeed 3k units on flat ground. The test was performed on the training dummies just outside Camelot. So if volley is really supposed to be limited to the max range of a normal shot, then it is bugged.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 1:39 PM by Horus

I understand volley assist can be effective. But is very situational.

Get 5 earth wizards /gt assisting with GTAOE and it is much more effective. Why? Every target is hit and the cool down is what? 6 sec? And you can't escape by going under a roof. Hell, get 5 pieces of siege equipment assisting and it is more effective. And those are cheap and require no spec or RA points.

And to look at it in a larger context...volley is ONLY useful when you have 2+ archers GT assisting at keep attack or defense against static targets who don't move or hide under a roof. It is quite situational. Also, for every individual playing an archer that is one less player that brings other abilities to the BG (tanks casters healers etc). There are a lot of Rangers right now. That could be a partial reason why the hib BG seems so easily wiped. Sure, if you get a handful of rangers defending a keep it can be quite effective but in every other rvr scenario it puts the over all BG in a tenuous spot.

As far as damage, I have 61 bow spec, 370 dex buffed, Falcon Eye 8 (crit chance 43%)

My volley hits do anything from high 200s up to 500 (before crit). I'm unsure about the high hits. I chalked them up to targets <50 or casters that don't have their shields up.
Volley does not penetrate blade turn, and they can be blocked by shields. At least two arrows always miss even when the GT is in the middle of a group of enemies.

All a volley nerf would do is prob lower the hib population even more at this point.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 2:05 PM by Hejjin

Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 1:39 PM
snip...
My volley hits do anything from high 200s up to 500 (before crit). I'm unsure about the high hits. I chalked them up to targets <50 or casters that don't have their shields up.
snip...

On my Friar I had high damage from volley in OF when I was sat down (inside) to recover power from resurrections/heals. I have seen people sit down to recover on a rooftop during sieges in NF... So that might also account for some of your higher damage hits.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 2:38 PM by Leandrys

Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 1:39 PM
Volley does not penetrate blade turn

Well it often penetrates my eld or wizzy's ones, and i am never grouped with warden or earth theurgist, so... :/

Now i've been thinking twice about it, i do not even remember the last time it didn't penetrate my own personnal bubble.

Edit : Just like damages, there's something really wrong with archery in general, for example it often happens to me to make regular damages on rapid fire, on all kind of targets, even people clearly temp'ed, i get 180-130 damages per rapid fire's shots depending of armor type and racial resists but suddenly, i get exactly the double amount, while still firing arrows the the fastest speed possible, same thing happens sometimes with volley.

?:

Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:05 PM by

gruenesschaf

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:56 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:41 AM
snip...
Custom nerfs here so far: roofs protect against it and the range is reduced to normal bow range including elevation bonus.
snip...
I just respecced my scout and tested volley range. It is indeed 3k units on flat ground. The test was performed on the training dummies just outside Camelot. So if volley is really supposed to be limited to the max range of a normal shot, then it is bugged.

Looks like some point in the beta it was changed again to 3000 + elevation bonus after the initial nerf to move it to attack range + elevation range to more correspond to the original clipping range according to the comment there.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 4:59 AM by Slap

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:41 AM
Slap wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Jul 2019 11:06 PM
Volley is a problem and it's custom mechanics on this server is broken. In 18 years volley has never hit as hard as regular bow damage or at 1 second every shot, or without a cool down. To be able to rapid fire for full damage, outside of face range, with no cooldown is, like I've said, utterly broken.

This will be my last post on this subject. A solution would be to decrease the range to archer base range (2100 for hunters, 2200 for rangers, and 2300 for scouts), decrease the damage from full bow damage, make it an AoE, remove the rapid fire bug, and give it a cooldown. This has been the volley mechanic for every freeshard that I've played and live works in the same way. Thanks all.

This is afaik how old volley worked. 15 second cooldown, 5 arrows, 1 second delay between each, no los, clipping range (although the old clipping range which was about 3500ish?), normal bow damage, 50% chance per arrow per target in the area to become a valid target, if there were any valid targets a random one of them is hit by that arrow.
Custom nerfs here so far: roofs protect against it and the range is reduced to normal bow range including elevation bonus.
Primary and really only source found that actually included details: https://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=201684 then some whine posts on freddyshouse around 1.62 when it was changed to penetrate all bladeturns, those at least make the information in the french thread seem correct.

And the without cooldown remark, excerpt of 1.60:
- Volley has had its cost reduced to 8 points and its reuse time is now 15 seconds, significantly shorter than before. A refund is granted for players who have already purchased it.

I must not remember it being such a problem way back in the day. I digress, if you think that it's current form is working as intended and healthy for the server, there's not much left to say.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 5:13 AM by

gruenesschaf

Slap wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 4:59 AM
I must not remember it being such a problem way back in the day. I digress, if you think that it's current form is working as intended and healthy for the server, there's not much left to say.

While it is working as intended / as it did, I don't think I said anywhere that it's healthy.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 5:26 AM by bm01

Slap wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 4:59 AM
I must not remember it being such a problem way back in the day. I digress, if you think that it's current form is working as intended and healthy for the server, there's not much left to say.

It's a RA that costed 14 points (or was it 18?) for a long time, because longshot was a prerequisite (before 1.60 I believe). Not many people where willing to invest that much for something that doesn't help to win a fight, and not many people tried it because of how rare and costly respecialization stones were. But more importantly, people didn't assist, and volley was mostly used to detect other stealthers at gates. At least, this is from my experience.

I believe it worked pretty much the same way back the days, I even found someone having the same complains I have about the targeting system. It's just that, for some reason, we played differently I guess?

Fri 2 Aug 2019 7:13 AM by Druth

I often get hit for 700 in 1-2 secs, before I find cover.
If I'm to slow, wounded, or assist is taking place, I've died a few times to it.

Not gonna ask for a nerf, I can take the damage and casters, who can't, would prob dominate sieges completely without volley.

I think a better design, though, would be to move it to lvl 45 bow spec, and be free, but that line prob needs a refresh anyway.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 3:50 PM by Isavyr

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 7:13 AM
I often get hit for 700 in 1-2 secs, before I find cover.
If I'm to slow, wounded, or assist is taking place, I've died a few times to it.

Not gonna ask for a nerf, I can take the damage and casters, who can't, would prob dominate sieges completely without volley.

I think a better design, though, would be to move it to lvl 45 bow spec, and be free, but that line prob needs a refresh anyway.

I like your idea regarding the bow spec. Volley would still need a further adjustment though, because having a damage-dealing ability with over 2300 range is inexcusable. It bypasses your fundamental mechanics of having no direct damage that outrange the no-damage, control mechanics--amnesia and nearsight. The keeps are well designed to offer many attackable and defensive spots for both sides, with identifiable siege weapons that the attackers must clear. Volley bypasses such restrictions without consideration.

In my opinion, the range needs to be somewhere between 1500 and 2300 units (my preference would be start at 1875--bolt range, for an ability that doesn't even require LoS, and see how it goes from there)

Fri 2 Aug 2019 4:21 PM by Druth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 3:50 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 7:13 AM
I often get hit for 700 in 1-2 secs, before I find cover.
If I'm to slow, wounded, or assist is taking place, I've died a few times to it.

Not gonna ask for a nerf, I can take the damage and casters, who can't, would prob dominate sieges completely without volley.

I think a better design, though, would be to move it to lvl 45 bow spec, and be free, but that line prob needs a refresh anyway.

I like your idea regarding the bow spec. Volley would still need a further adjustment though, because having a damage-dealing ability with over 2300 range is inexcusable. It bypasses your fundamental mechanics of having no direct damage that outrange the no-damage, control mechanics--amnesia and nearsight. The keeps are well designed to offer many attackable and defensive spots for both sides, with identifiable siege weapons that the attackers must clear. Volley bypasses such restrictions without consideration.

In my opinion, the range needs to be somewhere between 1500 and 2300 units (my preference would be start at 1875--bolt range, for an ability that doesn't even require LoS, and see how it goes from there)

Well, my biggest frustration is that my shield offers me very little help, because I can not engage what I can not see/target.
It would give heavy tanks a tiny bit more to do, if guard from them gave better protection.

But... I don't know enough about archery really. It seems archers are popular, but I contribute that mostly to sieges.
Lowering damage for sub 45 spec archery, and making the line be more about utility would go a long way to help, both archers but also volley not being so dominant.
Volley, BT pierce, PB shots, maybe even a snare on a timer to help them actually catch anything without needing to be hunter/stealth group.

Again, I think we (shudders to say this about a stealth class) need archers to control sieges not being 100% about casters nuking.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 6:54 PM by Isavyr

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 4:21 PM
But... I don't know enough about archery really. It seems archers are popular, but I contribute that mostly to sieges.
Lowering damage for sub 45 spec archery, and making the line be more about utility would go a long way to help, both archers but also volley not being so dominant.
Volley, BT pierce, PB shots, maybe even a snare on a timer to help them actually catch anything without needing to be hunter/stealth group.

Again, I think we (shudders to say this about a stealth class) need archers to control sieges not being 100% about casters nuking.

If this were OF, I would agree with you about keeps being an caster-only opportunity. But now, speaking from experience, my melee characters have a lot of fun under the current NF keeps, which offers melee several options--particularly the side doors, which regularly offer the defenders surprise counterattacks. Then there's the added siege weaponry/oils, as well as (for light-tanks) scalable walls.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 6:56 PM by Hejjin

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 4:21 PM
Well, my biggest frustration is that my shield offers me very little help, because I can not engage what I can not see/target.
snip...

I believe the issue there is that the range of the /face command is lower than the maximum range of Volley especially when elevation is added to it.

Edit :
Correction, /face has 3k unit range, same as volley when archer and target are both on same level.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 7:21 PM by Druth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 6:54 PM
If this were OF, I would agree with you about keeps being an caster-only opportunity. But now, speaking from experience, my melee characters have a lot of fun under the current NF keeps, which offers melee several options--particularly the side doors, which regularly offer the defenders surprise counterattacks. Then there's the added siege weaponry/oils, as well as (for light-tanks) scalable walls.

Guess I agree, but you need people to push out. Often people seem to just huddle up inside and hope for something to happen that will save the keep.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 8:49 PM by Siouxsie

Volley is fine. It's my only counter to sticking my head up above the parapet and getting hib baseline stunned, debuffed, nuke nuked to death (which is more OP than volley)

Fri 2 Aug 2019 9:32 PM by Boomslang

Volley itself is not a big deal , and yes I played Kublai and am Skorpos now. Instead of nerfing the ability since archers have already been greatly reduced from the good ole days.... If there is a desire on the part of staff to change how much it is used, tie it to bow spec and make it a 50 bow requirement. The number of archers using it then would be greatly reduced.

Fri 2 Aug 2019 11:29 PM by Cadeg

during OF, volley have 4000+ range, just think about it ...

Sat 3 Aug 2019 12:30 AM by Isavyr

Boomslang wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 9:32 PM
Volley itself is not a big deal , and yes I played Kublai and am Skorpos now. Instead of nerfing the ability since archers have already been greatly reduced from the good ole days.... If there is a desire on the part of staff to change how much it is used, tie it to bow spec and make it a 50 bow requirement. The number of archers using it then would be greatly reduced.

This is what I call "nuclear bombs are rare" balance. A designer decides against balancing something inherently, but by its rarity ("people won't specialize it so often, so people shouldn't complain now"

. This isn't a good argument, in my opinion. It's still a poorly balanced ability when it is used, and it will continue to be used. It's simply not designed within the DAOC framework. A better solution is to balance it within the DAOC framework. Make it have counters, like everything else in the game.

Anything without counters is frankly idiotic in an MMO.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 12:48 AM by Isavyr

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 8:49 PM
Volley is fine. It's my only counter to sticking my head up above the parapet and getting hib baseline stunned, debuffed, nuke nuked to death (which is more OP than volley)

Let's forget about volley for a moment and address what you stated was an imbalance. You brought up debuff-casting, which to kill a target in your given situation typically requires 2+ enemies assisting (maybe this is just my experience). Let's take 2+ archers. Do you think, using stealth, they might also be able to drop a caster effectively?

It seems to me that archers and casters fill totally different roles, so there should be notable differences. For example, hib casters lack stealth, and therefore can be seen at all times, which means they can be mezzed, stunned, damaged, amnesia'd at all times. And they wear the softest armor in the game, and furthermore have the least hitpoints in the game, so presumably they must have something to make up for these deficits. And lastly, they have inferior range to casters, which in a keep situation is difficult to overcome--they can't move a wall ten meters to accommodate themselves, obviously. So, do you expect the same damage/lethality from a better armored, better ranged, better hitpointed stealther ?

Now, to address volley: I don't advocate a nerf to its damage, radius, or overall effectiveness upon firing. Only its range in which the enemy has zero counter. Does that seem reasonable?

Sat 3 Aug 2019 1:34 AM by Vkejai

Theres been enough nerfs lately. August is anti nerf month. Thank you.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:07 AM by Hejjin

Cadeg wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 11:29 PM
during OF, volley have 4000+ range, just think about it ...

Volley has a maximum range of 3k units when there is zero elevation difference between the archer and the ground-target, to increase the range beyond that requires the archer to have an elevation advantage over the target area. Given that the vast majority of complaints are about Volley being used against defenders on top of the keep towers, I am sure that it is not possible to achieve 4k Volley range against that particular location as they are always the highest points in the area. I will test it at some point next week when I return to playing Alb side.

Edit : My bad, I thought you were complaining about the maximum range on here, not what the max range used to be.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:09 AM by Druth

Cadeg wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 11:29 PM
during OF, volley have 4000+ range, just think about it ...

It cost 18 RA points, and was on a 15 min timer, just think about it...

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:10 AM by Druth

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Aug 2019 8:49 PM
Volley is fine. It's my only counter to sticking my head up above the parapet and getting hib baseline stunned, debuffed, nuke nuked to death (which is more OP than volley)

This is an issue for ALL non-hibs, do thanes get a gtaoe hammer? I'd be willing to have it be at 20 sec recast.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:13 AM by jaybrewer

volley is way to over powerfull getting hit for 300 on a roof od ck when they cant even see and the range from the outer walls hits the hole roof and the room below needs looked into was in the lord room when it killed me its too much makes deff unreasonable

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:14 AM by Druth

Vkejai wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
Theres been enough nerfs lately. August is anti nerf month. Thank you.

What many advocate for, I am anyway, is for it to be free but at high bow spec.
And in general make high bow spec better utility wise, and low bow spec worse damage wise.

Archer damage is fine, but their utility/options are low/few.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:25 AM by Hejjin

jaybrewer wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:13 AM
volley is way to over powerfull getting hit for 300 on a roof od ck when they cant even see and the range from the outer walls hits the hole roof and the room below needs looked into was in the lord room when it killed me its too much makes deff unreasonable

Incorrect, Volley does not hit the whole roof of the outer keep towers, let alone the main keep. I have measured the area of the roof of both types of towers, and measured the radius of Volley groundtarget by firing at the dumies outside camelot, the radius of Volley is between 325 units and 350 units (I never actually managed to hit a target at 345+ units away from the centre of the ground-target in over a 100 shots). The main keep tower is approx 1150 units by 1010 units, the outer towers are approx 795 units by 795 units, so no, it is not possible for a single volley ground-target to cover the entire roof area of a tower.

As for hitting you in the Lord room, were you on the stairs leading down, or at the bottom of that stairway? There seems to be a chance to be hit in the area around those openings.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:28 AM by Hejjin

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
Theres been enough nerfs lately. August is anti nerf month. Thank you.

What many advocate for, I am anyway, is for it to be free but at high bow spec.
And in general make high bow spec better utility wise, and low bow spec worse damage wise.

Archer damage is fine, but their utility/options are low/few.

I agree, but really this is something that should have been done in beta, not 7 months months after launch.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:38 AM by Druth

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:28 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
Theres been enough nerfs lately. August is anti nerf month. Thank you.

What many advocate for, I am anyway, is for it to be free but at high bow spec.
And in general make high bow spec better utility wise, and low bow spec worse damage wise.

Archer damage is fine, but their utility/options are low/few.
I agree, but really this is something that should have been done in beta, not 7 months months after launch.

I agree. But I never joined this server, or made a class, thinking it would never change.

DaoC, as I know it, changed over time.
I know people think nerfs make people leave, and it likely does. But so does status quo for those who dislike the "status".
I read someone saying to the likes of: "Just think of how many animists left because of the nerf", and I was like... "just think of how many albs/mids left because of animists?".
The server has followed a slow decline, but on a trendline that all freeshards follow. There is no sudden "OMG this was what made people leave" drop in pop, just a slow steady decline.
It's fantasy that the server would have 2k pop if "only the devs didn't keep changing things".
But it goes well hand in hand with DaoC player mentality that the reason for failure is someone else' fault, and success is their own doing (loosing=bad luck, OP class, cheater. Winning = skill).

Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:12 AM by Hejjin

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:38 AM
I agree. But I never joined this server, or made a class, thinking it would never change.

Having played so many MMOs over the last 20 years I was expecting some changes, however what you are suggesting is a total redesign of a class, and no, that is not something I was expecting...That is not to say I do not agree with your ideas, because I do.

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:38 AM
DaoC, as I know it, changed over time.
I know people think nerfs make people leave, and it likely does. But so does status quo for those who dislike the "status".
I read someone saying to the likes of: "Just think of how many animists left because of the nerf", and I was like... "just think of how many albs/mids left because of animists?".
The server has followed a slow decline, but on a trendline that all freeshards follow. There is no sudden "OMG this was what made people leave" drop in pop, just a slow steady decline.
It's fantasy that the server would have 2k pop if "only the devs didn't keep changing things".
But it goes well hand in hand with DaoC player mentality that the reason for failure is someone else' fault, and success is their own doing (loosing=bad luck, OP class, cheater. Winning = skill).

Whilst I believe it is incredibly hard or maybe even impossible, to identify the exact reasons so many have let the server, I do believe the sheer number of changes has influenced those numbers.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:29 AM by Stoertebecker

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:28 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 1:34 AM
Theres been enough nerfs lately. August is anti nerf month. Thank you.

What many advocate for, I am anyway, is for it to be free but at high bow spec.
And in general make high bow spec better utility wise, and low bow spec worse damage wise.

Archer damage is fine, but their utility/options are low/few.
I agree, but really this is something that should have been done in beta, not 7 months months after launch.

Were you playing here during beta? I was..sometimes.
During Beta there was no keep fight with 50-100 players and 10-15 archers on each side. There was no NF, etctec.
Testing stuff that has only an effect with larger numbers was impossible.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:41 AM by Hejjin

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:29 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:28 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:14 AM
What many advocate for, I am anyway, is for it to be free but at high bow spec.
And in general make high bow spec better utility wise, and low bow spec worse damage wise.

Archer damage is fine, but their utility/options are low/few.
I agree, but really this is something that should have been done in beta, not 7 months months after launch.

Were you playing here during beta? I was..sometimes.
During Beta there was no keep fight with 50-100 players and 10-15 archers on each side. There was no NF, etctec.
Testing stuff that has only an effect with larger numbers was impossible.

No, I did not play during beta, I heard about it a few weeks before launch. I was referring to the redesign of the class, ie moving volley to the spec line, and lowering damage / increasing utility, those could / should have been done during Beta.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:34 AM by Druth

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:12 AM
Whilst I believe it is incredibly hard or maybe even impossible, to identify the exact reasons so many have let the server, I do believe the sheer number of changes has influenced those numbers.

Uthgard made no changes, and saw the same steady decline.
People joined that server KNOWING what it would be like, and it never changed, and yet they went from 4k to 1k over the same period as Phoenix.
So two servers, roughly same numbers joining at launch, one where people got what they joined for, and one that changed over the cause of the lifetime, and both saw same decline.
Do you honestly believe no changes would have made a difference here?

The decline has nothing to do with changes, it's a combination of people; loosing interest, feeling changes are needed, annoyed by changes.

And Beta had absolutely no way of testing everything.
If Beta was supposed to be the marker of how to launch, stealthers would have been removed from the game, as the closing month saw sometimes over 50%! stealthers in frontier.
Beta can highlight issues, but it is in no way enough to launch a balanced server, and account for the "whats, how, why etc...".

Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:36 AM by Druth

I would even argue that Uthgard saw a sharper decline, exactly due to their refusal to make any changes.
But the their decline is nearly similar, so I'm not sure my assumption is correct.

But you have to understand, that Uthgard has a large loyal fanbase, that was established more than 10 years ago, so their decline should be seen in a harsher light.
That they managed to both scare of new players, but also their loyal fanbase, is a testament to how much unwillingness to change annoyed people.
Many from Uthgard even saw people leaving to Phoenix as a direct betrayal, and making a server work without a hard core base to support whatever you do, is not an easy task.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:07 AM by Stoertebecker

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:41 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:29 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 7:28 AM
I agree, but really this is something that should have been done in beta, not 7 months months after launch.

Were you playing here during beta? I was..sometimes.
During Beta there was no keep fight with 50-100 players and 10-15 archers on each side. There was no NF, etctec.
Testing stuff that has only an effect with larger numbers was impossible.
No, I did not play during beta, I heard about it a few weeks before launch. I was referring to the redesign of the class, ie moving volley to the spec line, and lowering damage / increasing utility, those could / should have been done during Beta.

I think there was more important stuff to do in beta. And within the first 4-5 month archers were no problem at all, even now they are no prob.
Maybe in keepfights with more than 5 archers, but that is only a part of rvr. Volley is useless in all other situations.

But i agree that the bow line is...meh. Root/Snareshot would be nice, and the mechanics are already available.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:09 AM by Hejjin

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:34 AM
Uthgard made no changes, and saw the same steady decline.
People joined that server KNOWING what it would be like, and it never changed, and yet they went from 4k to 1k over the same period as Phoenix.
So two servers, roughly same numbers joining at launch, one where people got what they joined for, and one that changed over the cause of the lifetime, and both saw same decline.

I never played on Uthgard, so I have no idea what it was like, by the time I heard about it, its number were too low to be appealing to me.

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:34 AM
Do you honestly believe no changes would have made a difference here?

No, then again I never claimed that would be the case, only that the sheer number of changes does have an influence. The sheer number of changes does mean we cannot point back to a specific event/change and say that was the root cause. However there were population drops around the time of some of the RP task changes, specifically the one that stopped rewarding Exp/RP to players below level 35. Personally I thought that was a good and needed change, but it did have an impact.

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:34 AM
The decline has nothing to do with changes, it's a combination of people; loosing interest, feeling changes are needed, annoyed by changes.

Hmmm

The first part of your sentence and the last part contradict each other ;-).

Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:34 AM
And Beta had absolutely no way of testing everything.
If Beta was supposed to be the marker of how to launch, stealthers would have been removed from the game, as the closing month saw sometimes over 50%! stealthers in frontier.
Beta can highlight issues, but it is in no way enough to launch a balanced server, and account for the "whats, how, why etc...".

I agree that Beta cannot test everything, I have been in enough MMO Betas to realise that not everything will be found and reported, however my point was about archery design, that could / should have been done in Beta.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:18 AM by Druth

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:09 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:34 AM
The decline has nothing to do with changes, it's a combination of people; loosing interest, feeling changes are needed, annoyed by changes.
Hmmm

The first part of your sentence and the last part contradict each other ;-).

Poor wording, was more to illustrate the "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:25 AM by Hejjin

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:07 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:41 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:29 AM
Were you playing here during beta? I was..sometimes.
During Beta there was no keep fight with 50-100 players and 10-15 archers on each side. There was no NF, etctec.
Testing stuff that has only an effect with larger numbers was impossible.
No, I did not play during beta, I heard about it a few weeks before launch. I was referring to the redesign of the class, ie moving volley to the spec line, and lowering damage / increasing utility, those could / should have been done during Beta.

I think there was more important stuff to do in beta. And within the first 4-5 month archers were no problem at all, even now they are no prob.
Maybe in keepfights with more than 5 archers, but that is only a part of rvr. Volley is useless in all other situations.

But i agree that the bow line is...meh. Root/Snareshot would be nice, and the mechanics are already available.

The Bow line is lacking, the current design means that the best solo archers are those that invested relatively little in Bow and instead play more as a melee hybrid. If they were to redesign archery for the Phoenix 2.0 server I would :
1. Have critshot 1- 10 and a new version of it is unlocked every 5 spec points starting at spec 5.
2. Have critshot damage not be modified by composite archery skill, instead it is purely based off the critshot used. Speccing 35 bow (critshot 7) would only result in max critshot damage being 70% of 50 bow (critshot 10).
3. Move long shot into the spec line, as long shot 1 and 2, with each adding +25% to base range.
4. Move Volley into spec at 45 or 50 bow.
5. Add utility via RAs, a snare shot on a 3 minute reuse timer?

Things like the above would provide incentives for people to spec higher in bow.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:38 AM by Stoertebecker

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:25 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:07 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:41 AM
No, I did not play during beta, I heard about it a few weeks before launch. I was referring to the redesign of the class, ie moving volley to the spec line, and lowering damage / increasing utility, those could / should have been done during Beta.

I think there was more important stuff to do in beta. And within the first 4-5 month archers were no problem at all, even now they are no prob.
Maybe in keepfights with more than 5 archers, but that is only a part of rvr. Volley is useless in all other situations.

But i agree that the bow line is...meh. Root/Snareshot would be nice, and the mechanics are already available.
The Bow line is lacking, the current design means that the best solo archers are those that invested relatively little in Bow and instead play more as a melee hybrid. If they were to redesign archery for the Phoenix 2.0 server I would :
1. Have critshot 1- 10 and a new version of it is unlocked every 5 spec points starting at spec 5.
2. Have critshot damage not be modified by composite archery skill, instead it is purely based off the critshot used. Speccing 35 bow (critshot 7) would only result in max critshot damage being 70% of 50 bow (critshot 10).
3. Move long shot into the spec line, as long shot 1 and 2, with each adding +25% to base range.
4. Move Volley into spec at 45 or 50 bow.
5. Add utility via RAs, a snare shot on a 3 minute reuse timer?

Things like the above would provide incentives for people to spec higher in bow.

You`re suggestions are based on playing a solo archer?

Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:42 AM by Hejjin

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:38 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:25 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:07 AM
I think there was more important stuff to do in beta. And within the first 4-5 month archers were no problem at all, even now they are no prob.
Maybe in keepfights with more than 5 archers, but that is only a part of rvr. Volley is useless in all other situations.

But i agree that the bow line is...meh. Root/Snareshot would be nice, and the mechanics are already available.
The Bow line is lacking, the current design means that the best solo archers are those that invested relatively little in Bow and instead play more as a melee hybrid. If they were to redesign archery for the Phoenix 2.0 server I would :
1. Have critshot 1- 10 and a new version of it is unlocked every 5 spec points starting at spec 5.
2. Have critshot damage not be modified by composite archery skill, instead it is purely based off the critshot used. Speccing 35 bow (critshot 7) would only result in max critshot damage being 70% of 50 bow (critshot 10).
3. Move long shot into the spec line, as long shot 1 and 2, with each adding +25% to base range.
4. Move Volley into spec at 45 or 50 bow.
5. Add utility via RAs, a snare shot on a 3 minute reuse timer?

Things like the above would provide incentives for people to spec higher in bow.

You`re suggestions are based on playing a solo archer?

Yes

Sat 3 Aug 2019 2:07 PM by Stoertebecker

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:42 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:38 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:25 AM
The Bow line is lacking, the current design means that the best solo archers are those that invested relatively little in Bow and instead play more as a melee hybrid. If they were to redesign archery for the Phoenix 2.0 server I would :
1. Have critshot 1- 10 and a new version of it is unlocked every 5 spec points starting at spec 5.
2. Have critshot damage not be modified by composite archery skill, instead it is purely based off the critshot used. Speccing 35 bow (critshot 7) would only result in max critshot damage being 70% of 50 bow (critshot 10).
3. Move long shot into the spec line, as long shot 1 and 2, with each adding +25% to base range.
4. Move Volley into spec at 45 or 50 bow.
5. Add utility via RAs, a snare shot on a 3 minute reuse timer?

Things like the above would provide incentives for people to spec higher in bow.

You`re suggestions are based on playing a solo archer?
Yes

Balanceing and the classes ability design were never made based on how the class can perform solo, not in 19 years.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 3:00 PM by Hejjin

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 2:07 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:42 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:38 AM
You`re suggestions are based on playing a solo archer?
Yes

Balanceing and the classes ability design were never made based on how the class can perform solo, not in 19 years.

You do realise that the current archer design mostly favours the solo archers? With there being so little difference in max damage between 35 and 50 Bow it encourages archers to spend heavily in other areas substantially increasing their solo performance...

Sat 3 Aug 2019 3:08 PM by Isavyr

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 2:07 PM
Balanceing and the classes ability design were never made based on how the class can perform solo, not in 19 years.

That's not really a counter-reply, in my opinion, nor is it factually true. For example, the assassin very balanced around 1v1, and removing dodger was a change intended to weaken solo assassins. And even if it were true, it would be a nonsensical axiom to build off of. You can often design classes to be useful both solo and in groups and just because Mythic wasn't able to do it with their often confused design philosophy doesn't mean other developers would be so constrained.

Personally, I'd love crit shots to do something like a -10% to -20% melee resist debuff to give them a useful tool in visible group, but I'm sure this is just a dream as it's tainted by the dirty-word "custom".

Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:26 PM by Stoertebecker

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 3:00 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 2:07 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:42 AM
Yes

Balanceing and the classes ability design were never made based on how the class can perform solo, not in 19 years.
You do realise that the current archer design mostly favours the solo archers? With there being so little difference in max damage between 35 and 50 Bow it encourages archers to spend heavily in other areas substantially increasing their solo performance...

Do you realize that archers have the same abilities, ra`s and utilities as on Uthgard? Have you seen many solo archers around? Me either....
It`s the setup of this Server ( and live ) that made soloing on an archer possible, not the archer design.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:31 PM by Stoertebecker

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 3:08 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 2:07 PM
Balanceing and the classes ability design were never made based on how the class can perform solo, not in 19 years.

That's not really a counter-reply, in my opinion, nor is it factually true. For example, the assassin very balanced around 1v1, and removing dodger was a change intended to weaken solo assassins. And even if it were true, it would be a nonsensical axiom to build off of. You can often design classes to be useful both solo and in groups and just because Mythic wasn't able to do it with their often confused design philosophy doesn't mean other developers would be so constrained.

Personally, I'd love crit shots to do something like a -10% to -20% melee resist debuff to give them a useful tool in visible group, but I'm sure this is just a dream as it's tainted by the dirty-word "custom".

It`s no secret that Mythic and even Broadsword made balanching realm and group based, not based on how a class can perform solo.
Mythic wasn`t able to do it, they didn`t want and refused to balance by classes...

Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:53 PM by Hejjin

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:26 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 3:00 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 2:07 PM
Balanceing and the classes ability design were never made based on how the class can perform solo, not in 19 years.
You do realise that the current archer design mostly favours the solo archers? With there being so little difference in max damage between 35 and 50 Bow it encourages archers to spend heavily in other areas substantially increasing their solo performance...

Do you realize that archers have the same abilities, ra`s and utilities as on Uthgard? Have you seen many solo archers around? Me either....
It`s the setup of this Server ( and live ) that made soloing on an archer possible, not the archer design.

There were plenty of solo archers here in OF / when the population was higher. As for Uthgard, was the damage similar? I.e speccing so low in Bow and still able to achieve approx 94% of the max critshot damage of speccing 50 bow?

Sat 3 Aug 2019 5:09 PM by Stoertebecker

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:53 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:26 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 3:00 PM
You do realise that the current archer design mostly favours the solo archers? With there being so little difference in max damage between 35 and 50 Bow it encourages archers to spend heavily in other areas substantially increasing their solo performance...

Do you realize that archers have the same abilities, ra`s and utilities as on Uthgard? Have you seen many solo archers around? Me either....
It`s the setup of this Server ( and live ) that made soloing on an archer possible, not the archer design.
There were plenty of solo archers here in OF / when the population was higher. As for Uthgard, was the damage similar? I.e speccing so low in Bow and still able to achieve approx 94% of the max critshot damage of speccing 50 bow?

Uthgard was/is very close to live servers in 2002/3, except all the QoL stuff we have here on Phoenix which make soloing possible and fun.
A buffpotion on Uth is/was 1 charge, not up to 100 charges. Was a pain in the....you had stuff for maybe 1-2h in your inventory.

The damage was the same, the ra`s were nearly the same etc.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 5:17 PM by Druth

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:53 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:26 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 3:00 PM
You do realise that the current archer design mostly favours the solo archers? With there being so little difference in max damage between 35 and 50 Bow it encourages archers to spend heavily in other areas substantially increasing their solo performance...

Do you realize that archers have the same abilities, ra`s and utilities as on Uthgard? Have you seen many solo archers around? Me either....
It`s the setup of this Server ( and live ) that made soloing on an archer possible, not the archer design.
There were plenty of solo archers here in OF / when the population was higher. As for Uthgard, was the damage similar? I.e speccing so low in Bow and still able to achieve approx 94% of the max critshot damage of speccing 50 bow?

He was referring to Uthgard I think.
Making archers/assassins have same stealth made archers viable here, with See Hidden archers were mostly just food for assassins.
Until they changed stealth there were very few archers around.

Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:47 PM by Isavyr

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:31 PM
It`s no secret that Mythic and even Broadsword made balanching realm and group based, not based on how a class can perform solo.
Mythic wasn`t able to do it, they didn`t want and refused to balance by classes...

I think your confusion stems from the fact Mythic stated that they don't balance based on solo classes but--surprise, surprise--Mythic often stated falsehoods about their own game. Here's one of my favorite Mythic statesments: "TOA won't affect RvR".

To summarize, your statement had two components:
1) (explicit) Mythic didn't balance around solo
2) (implicit) Phoenix should not balance around solo
Neither is true or necessary. So why continue to bring it up?

Sat 3 Aug 2019 11:22 PM by Stoertebecker

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 10:47 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 4:31 PM
It`s no secret that Mythic and even Broadsword made balanching realm and group based, not based on how a class can perform solo.
Mythic wasn`t able to do it, they didn`t want and refused to balance by classes...
To summarize, your statement had two components:
1) (explicit) Mythic didn't balance around solo
2) (implicit) Phoenix should not balance around solo
Neither is true or necessary. So why continue to bring it up?

Because thats the way it goes.

The weight in balancing things is and was always realm > group ....and somewhere in a far corner comes the solo thing.

Btw, it wasn`t me who came up with balancing around solo performance.

Another thing i`ve noticed is the slight increase of Spiritmasters with supp-spec, could have something to do with the twf nerf.
I see a thread like * nerf pbaoe* coming....

Sun 4 Aug 2019 4:00 AM by Delegator

I have a Runemaster who gets GTAE, which does maybe 160 damage max every 5 seconds, decreasing from the center out to <40 at the outer radius.

I have a Bonedancer for whom TWF is powerful but on a 10 minute timer and requires LOS.

I have a Hunter whose volley can do more per hit as TWF, but on a 1 second tick, every 15 seconds and with no LOS needed. The only requirement is a view of the sky for the target (not for the archer). Admittedly each shot hits just one person, but they are often dead before they can move out of radius. And the damage doesn't decrease as they move from center (that I've seen, anyway)

There is no two ways about it, volley is OP at the moment. It makes trying to defend a tower with a trebuchet impossible.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 7:18 AM by Sepplord

i would like all those making claims that volley is instantly killing them, also state how many archers were shooting, and how many people were around...
cause the only way someone regularly dies to volley without reaction time is multiple archers volleying a single person

why should a solo person be able to survive defense of a siege with a huge BG attacking?

Mon 5 Aug 2019 1:25 PM by bm01

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 7:18 AM
i would like all those making claims that volley is instantly killing them, also state how many archers were shooting, and how many people were around...
cause the only way someone regularly dies to volley without reaction time is multiple archers volleying a single person

why should a solo person be able to survive defense of a siege with a huge BG attacking?

Nobody talked about huge BGs or lone defenders. Walls are big, there are many isolated targets even with dozens of people in defense, and you only need 2 or 3 archers to kill someone in a few seconds (depending on your luck and the target). And you don't risk any retaliation, and you can do it again 5 or 10 seconds later. It also works very well when you're defending and killing attackers (possibly even better). You're pointing out one issue with volley though, which is the way it targets people. Volley, like AoEs, should be more effective the more people there are in the area. Currently, volley is more like a sniping ability.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 2:03 PM by Sepplord

bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 1:25 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 7:18 AM
i would like all those making claims that volley is instantly killing them, also state how many archers were shooting, and how many people were around...
cause the only way someone regularly dies to volley without reaction time is multiple archers volleying a single person

why should a solo person be able to survive defense of a siege with a huge BG attacking?
Nobody talked about huge BGs or lone defenders. Walls are big, there are many isolated targets even with dozens of people in defense, and you only need 2 or 3 archers to kill someone in a few seconds (depending on your luck and the target). And you don't risk any retaliation, and you can do it again 5 or 10 seconds later. It also works very well when you're defending and killing attackers (possibly even better). You're pointing out one issue with volley though, which is the way it targets people. Volley, like AoEs, should be more effective the more people there are in the area. Currently, volley is more like a sniping ability.

yeah, but the thing is...2-3archer simply assistshooting someone will kill him the same way, probably even faster. From stealth.

if they are shooting from out of LOS, then they are randomly hoping someone appears, and would probably be a bigger threat if they just shot people in assist directly (that way you can gib people that just pop out of a door for a second, since you can pre-knock arrows and instantly release them when a target appears).

How big is the safety of LOS actually, compared to the much slower reaction time to people moving or apearing somewhere else.
If they are groundassisting another stealth that is giving groundtargets you need to add another stealther and another level of coordination.

At that point we are talking about 4stealthers coordinating to kill a solo... If that is making/breaking a keepsiege, then i don't really know where the argument is supposed to go. If there are dozens in the defense-scenario, why do people go solo and expect to live if the outside is littered with enemy stealth? A caster having a shieldtank with him would not die do volley instantly.

Even without a shieldguard, literally ANYONE that is near the caster "protects" from volley by splitting the hitchance between them. 3archers assist-volleying + groundtargetstealther = 15arrows with a 50% chance to hit at all, hits are split between the targets on average = 3,75arrows on average that hit each individual target, assuming both are casters without any evade/block. And that only happens every 15seconds (or even less? when does the volley-cooldown start ticking down?)
Run around with 3people and suddenly you are only at 2,5 arrowhits per target on average.
And that's 4people coordinating an attack on you.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:16 AM by Siouxsie

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 2:03 PM
bm01 wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 1:25 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 7:18 AM
i would like all those making claims that volley is instantly killing them, also state how many archers were shooting, and how many people were around...
cause the only way someone regularly dies to volley without reaction time is multiple archers volleying a single person

why should a solo person be able to survive defense of a siege with a huge BG attacking?
Nobody talked about huge BGs or lone defenders. Walls are big, there are many isolated targets even with dozens of people in defense, and you only need 2 or 3 archers to kill someone in a few seconds (depending on your luck and the target). And you don't risk any retaliation, and you can do it again 5 or 10 seconds later. It also works very well when you're defending and killing attackers (possibly even better). You're pointing out one issue with volley though, which is the way it targets people. Volley, like AoEs, should be more effective the more people there are in the area. Currently, volley is more like a sniping ability.

yeah, but the thing is...2-3archer simply assistshooting someone will kill him the same way, probably even faster. From stealth.

if they are shooting from out of LOS, then they are randomly hoping someone appears, and would probably be a bigger threat if they just shot people in assist directly (that way you can gib people that just pop out of a door for a second, since you can pre-knock arrows and instantly release them when a target appears).

How big is the safety of LOS actually, compared to the much slower reaction time to people moving or apearing somewhere else.
If they are groundassisting another stealth that is giving groundtargets you need to add another stealther and another level of coordination.

At that point we are talking about 4stealthers coordinating to kill a solo... If that is making/breaking a keepsiege, then i don't really know where the argument is supposed to go. If there are dozens in the defense-scenario, why do people go solo and expect to live if the outside is littered with enemy stealth? A caster having a shieldtank with him would not die do volley instantly.

Even without a shieldguard, literally ANYONE that is near the caster "protects" from volley by splitting the hitchance between them. 3archers assist-volleying + groundtargetstealther = 15arrows with a 50% chance to hit at all, hits are split between the targets on average = 3,75arrows on average that hit each individual target, assuming both are casters without any evade/block. And that only happens every 15seconds (or even less? when does the volley-cooldown start ticking down?)
Run around with 3people and suddenly you are only at 2,5 arrowhits per target on average.
And that's 4people coordinating an attack on you.

How is this any different than 3 chanters/mentas doing stun, debuff, nuke nuke nuke?
Oh wait, they do it faster .. so you die in about 2 seconds rather than 10.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:28 AM by Sepplord

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:16 AM
How is this any difference than 3 chanters/mentas doing stun, debuff, nuke nuke nuke?
Oh wait, they do it faster .. so you die in about 2 seconds rather than 10.

yeah, that was kind of my point....to show that volley isn't really a problem or worthy of being nerfed

Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:32 AM by bm01

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 2:03 PM
literally ANYONE that is near the caster "protects" from volley by splitting the hitchance between them.

You don't realize that this is exactly the issue with volley. People don't want (and shouldn't) stay close to each others because of AoEs (catapults, DoTs, CCs...).

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:16 AM
How is this any difference than 3 chanters/mentas doing stun, debuff, nuke nuke nuke?
Oh wait, they do it faster .. so you die in about 2 seconds rather than 10.

It requires LoS (you can break it if you see the stun coming), the stun can be purged, and the casters have to be in range of pretty much anything and thus take some risks (or be interrupted by other players).

Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:34 AM by Sepplord

bm01 wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:32 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 2:03 PM
literally ANYONE that is near the caster "protects" from volley by splitting the hitchance between them.
You don't realize that this is exactly the issue with volley. People don't want (and shouldn't) stay close to each others because of AoEs (catapults, DoTs, CCs...).

You don't realize that this is exactly the issue with AoEs (catapults, DoTs, CCs...).. People don't want (and shouldn't) split up because of volley.

seriosly though...if you are alone, it is still 2-3people attacking you as solo...why do you expect to survive? Especially when you are saying there are also people AOEing that keep you from clumping with your realmmates...so not only theres 2-3archers but also a few AOE-nukers and you want to solo that situation? hmmm...
A single archer vollying you will not kill you unless the stars align and you don't chug a healthpot/charge

and please, paint a scenario as example where you think volley is OP...because so far all the people wanting volley changed have been very vague/exxaggerating with their complaints. It is hard to have a discussion without knowing what scenario is being talked about

Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:45 AM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:34 AM
and seriosly...if you are alone, it is still 2-3people attacking you as solo...why do you expect to survive?

Your example lacks the part where 2-3 people you can't see/target/even cast NS (longest range cast in game) kills you.
It's not that it's OP, because if it was people would be playing archers only in siege, it's that it's a bad design.

Being unable to counter damage, is a bad design. And taking cover is not a counter, because then you might as well just make gates have 1% the hp's they have now, so we can skip to the part where we fight inside inner keep.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:51 AM by bm01

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:34 AM
You don't realize that this is exactly the issue with AoEs (catapults, DoTs, CCs...).. People don't want (and shouldn't) split up because of volley

What are you trying to say? That staying grouped is a viable strategy for keep fights? Because it isn't.

and seriosly...if you are alone, it is still 2-3people attacking you as solo...why do you expect to survive?

I expect to survive because it makes no sense that a volley or arrows "snipes" people, the ability's targeting system goes against all logic. It's also one of the most flexible abilities in the game (if not the most, for keep fights that is), allowing you to hit people behind walls from clipping range (not exactly but whatever), and with a short cooldown. It doesn't even matter how many archers there are. It's simply poorly designed.

and please, paint a scenario as example where you think volley is OP...because so far all the people wanting volley changed have been very vague/exxaggerating with their complaints. It is hard to have a discussion without knowing what scenario is being talked about

We weren't exaggerating. You can even find testimonies of people using Volley, admitting it's too good.

Keep fights enter a stalemate as soon as there are a few archers on both sides. Are you really fine with that?

Tue 6 Aug 2019 8:41 AM by gotwqqd

Please park under one of the many overhangs in the keeps when making a sandwich

Tue 6 Aug 2019 9:23 AM by Sepplord

i am not definitely saying volley is fine, but so far noone has really described a convincing scenario what makes it too strong.

Solos getting killed by multiple archers doesn't turn sieges into stalemates...that's just an exxaggeration.

Druth wrote: Your example lacks the part where 2-3 people you can't see/target/even cast NS (longest range cast in game) kills you.
It's not that it's OP, because if it was people would be playing archers only in siege, it's that it's a bad design.

Being unable to counter damage, is a bad design. And taking cover is not a counter, because then you might as well just make gates have 1% the hp's they have now, so we can skip to the part where we fight inside inner keep.

So NS having uncounterable range is fine, but volley not? What is the counterplay to NS? NS Heal? Well, the counterplay to Volley is grouping a shieldtank or simply standing near someone else. (at least it seems like that to me). The damage is only uncounterable in the same way getting directly shot by 3-4archers from stealth is uncounterable. DPS of volley is MUCH lower though.

How is it worse design than GTAOE? 4casters assist GTAOING an area will be far superior as soon as there is more than a single enemy standing in the AoE.
The archers volleying from safety are in safety because they are protected by a zergforce. In that scenario being alone on the ramparts/keeproof is something a solo would do

It is quite showing that i have asked for a specific scenario multiple times, and all i get are evasive answer to single points in the scenarios that i have given.
Stacking multiple annoying things into a huge complaint doesn't neccessarily make a reasonable complaint. Dieing is annoying, yeah, i get that. Getting killed by multiple people assisting each other while going solo in a zerg scenario though is not only annoying, it's the expected outcome

bm01 wrote: I expect to survive because it makes no sense that a volley or arrows "snipes" people

Volley doesn't snipe people. Have you read Gruenes comment on it's targeting mechanics?

Tue 6 Aug 2019 9:56 AM by Stoertebecker

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:45 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 7:34 AM
and seriosly...if you are alone, it is still 2-3people attacking you as solo...why do you expect to survive?
Being unable to counter damage, is a bad design.

You can counter the damage, use your own archers and catapults

Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:01 AM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 9:23 AM
i am not definitely saying volley is fine, but so far noone has really described a convincing scenario what makes it too strong.

Solos getting killed by multiple archers doesn't turn sieges into stalemates...that's just an exxaggeration.

Druth wrote: Your example lacks the part where 2-3 people you can't see/target/even cast NS (longest range cast in game) kills you.
It's not that it's OP, because if it was people would be playing archers only in siege, it's that it's a bad design.

Being unable to counter damage, is a bad design. And taking cover is not a counter, because then you might as well just make gates have 1% the hp's they have now, so we can skip to the part where we fight inside inner keep.

So NS having uncounterable range is fine, but volley not? What is the counterplay to NS? NS Heal? Well, the counterplay to Volley is grouping a shieldtank or simply standing near someone else. (at least it seems like that to me). The damage is only uncounterable in the same way getting directly shot by 3-4archers from stealth is uncounterable. DPS of volley is MUCH lower though.

How is it worse design than GTAOE? 4casters assist GTAOING an area will be far superior as soon as there is more than a single enemy standing in the AoE.
The archers volleying from safety are in safety because they are protected by a zergforce. In that scenario being alone on the ramparts/keeproof is something a solo would do

It is quite showing that i have asked for a specific scenario multiple times, and all i get are evasive answer to single points in the scenarios that i have given.
Stacking multiple annoying things into a huge complaint doesn't neccessarily make a reasonable complaint. Dieing is annoying, yeah, i get that. Getting killed by multiple people assisting each other while going solo in a zerg scenario though is not only annoying, it's the expected outcome

NS doesn't kill people, 20 casters can assist NS, and you'd be at 100% hp.
The game has a history of making long range deal no damage (amnesia/ns), short range deal high damage (pbaoe).
Archers have been the exception to the rule, and rightly so, I believe they were designed to kill casters, so were given higher range.

GTAOE is a really bad example, that you should stop using right away if you want to defend volley. It's a spell that is cast on a 6 sec delay, which does half the damage EACH arrow from volley does, IF it even hits you directly. GTAOE works like any (apart from volley...) aoe spell, it has diminishing effect the further away it is from center. The only advantage gtaoe has is that it can hit inside, so there is no protection.
It also has only 1500 range, which doesn't matter when fight is in keep, but matters when an archer volleys me from a twr to rampart of keep.

Anyway, my problem with volley is not really damage, range or los. It's how easy/cheap it is to get, and still having it be incredibly strong.
It kinda reminds me of going 50 SC as thane, for that red s/c, when you could just use a charge and have same s/c buff. Charge nerf changed that though.

If you want to be buffed, run a buff char or group one. If you want to heal in combat, run an IP char. If you want to be a sniper, go full bow.
I think it's a bad design when you get access to ability/strengths that, by game design, should not be available to you with that class/spec.

Imagine an item that gave you stealth on a 2min timer. Just imagine.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:28 AM by Sepplord

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:01 AM
[...]

good point on the drop-off of GTAOE, i conveniently forgot that :/

regarding the lower part of your comment: isn't volley-dmg scaled with normal shot dmg? Bow-dmg scaling being kinda weird and many going only 27-35bow while keeping reasonable-high arrowdmg is a problem, i agree...but that isn't related to volley. (If volley dmg is independant of bowspec, i would agree that doesn't make sense and would be a good point to look at for a change)

----

I still have trouble thinking how it really is such a strong tool, since it is really bad DPS unless you are hitting solo-targets, and even then, unless the stars align you won't kill your target in one volley, and it has 10seconds to move after the volley...15seconds if he starts reacting when the first arrow hits

Afaik (please correct me where i am wrong) you lock onto your GT when you press volley.
So the archer decides to volley someone, places GT and presses volley, then it takes 5seconds until the first arrow is shot, and 10until the last one is shot. +traveltime of another second or two. So, for every arrow to even get the (50%) chance to hit the target, that target has to stay in the volley area for 11-12seconds.

So, if the person stays in the GT-area for 11-12seconds, is alone, doesn't use a healpot/charge/gets a heal/has no ablative within 4seconds (pretty big reaction time imho) AND the archer gets lucky and only misses a single arrow, then a caster dies...most other chars don't and would require all arrows to hit (3% chance).

Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:32 AM by gotwqqd

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 9:23 AM
i am not definitely saying volley is fine, but so far noone has really described a convincing scenario what makes it too strong.

Solos getting killed by multiple archers doesn't turn sieges into stalemates...that's just an exxaggeration.

Druth wrote: Your example lacks the part where 2-3 people you can't see/target/even cast NS (longest range cast in game) kills you.
It's not that it's OP, because if it was people would be playing archers only in siege, it's that it's a bad design.

Being unable to counter damage, is a bad design. And taking cover is not a counter, because then you might as well just make gates have 1% the hp's they have now, so we can skip to the part where we fight inside inner keep.

So NS having uncounterable range is fine, but volley not? What is the counterplay to NS? NS Heal? Well, the counterplay to Volley is grouping a shieldtank or simply standing near someone else. (at least it seems like that to me). The damage is only uncounterable in the same way getting directly shot by 3-4archers from stealth is uncounterable. DPS of volley is MUCH lower though.

How is it worse design than GTAOE? 4casters assist GTAOING an area will be far superior as soon as there is more than a single enemy standing in the AoE.
The archers volleying from safety are in safety because they are protected by a zergforce. In that scenario being alone on the ramparts/keeproof is something a solo would do

It is quite showing that i have asked for a specific scenario multiple times, and all i get are evasive answer to single points in the scenarios that i have given.
Stacking multiple annoying things into a huge complaint doesn't neccessarily make a reasonable complaint. Dieing is annoying, yeah, i get that. Getting killed by multiple people assisting each other while going solo in a zerg scenario though is not only annoying, it's the expected outcome

bm01 wrote: I expect to survive because it makes no sense that a volley or arrows "snipes" people
Volley doesn't snipe people. Have you read Gruenes comment on it's targeting mechanics?

Why does everything need a counter? If so every class would need a healing spell to counter any damage type spell or melee

Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:46 AM by Druth

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:32 AM
Why does everything need a counter? If so every class would need a healing spell to counter any damage type spell or melee

Those two parts are not the same.

Everything needs a counter, means rock/paper/scissor.
Every class need healing, means rock beats paper and scissor, paper beats scissor and rock, scissor beats rock and paper.

Everything needs a counter could (note could, not that I want), that shield users are immune to the first 1,2,3 arrows from volley, depending on shield size, and guarding someone passes on the same protection, technically doubling the effect.
That is an example of a counter, that would force volley users to select areas more carefully, and enable roof defense using the correct classes.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:55 AM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:28 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:01 AM
[...]
good point on the drop-off of GTAOE, i conveniently forgot that :/

regarding the lower part of your comment: isn't volley-dmg scaled with normal shot dmg? Bow-dmg scaling being kinda weird and many going only 27-35bow while keeping reasonable-high arrowdmg is a problem, i agree...but that isn't related to volley. (If volley dmg is independant of bowspec, i would agree that doesn't make sense and would be a good point to look at for a change)

----

I still have trouble thinking how it really is such a strong tool, since it is really bad DPS unless you are hitting solo-targets, and even then, unless the stars align you won't kill your target in one volley, and it has 10seconds to move after the volley...15seconds if he starts reacting when the first arrow hits

Afaik (please correct me where i am wrong) you lock onto your GT when you press volley.
So the archer decides to volley someone, places GT and presses volley, then it takes 5seconds until the first arrow is shot, and 10until the last one is shot. +traveltime of another second or two. So, for every arrow to even get the (50%) chance to hit the target, that target has to stay in the volley area for 11-12seconds.

So, if the person stays in the GT-area for 11-12seconds, is alone, doesn't use a healpot/charge/gets a heal/has no ablative within 4seconds (pretty big reaction time imho) AND the archer gets lucky and only misses a single arrow, then a caster dies...most other chars don't and would require all arrows to hit (3% chance).

I agree, the problem to volley is deeper than "just" volley. It's that low bow spec hits to hard, and high bow spec has to little utility.

I have no problem with dying to assist, I have a problem dying to assist that I can not stop.
I play a thane, so very rarely die to this. But that doesn't change that I see it as a bad design.

I dislike brute force in a game, is why light tanks were never a class I enjoyed playing. Assist/slam/burst, assist/slam/burst...
I like stuff like CC, interrupts, NS, kite, disease, "numb", snare, guard, LOS, etc etc...
I think volley is brute force.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:05 AM by Stoertebecker

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:46 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:32 AM
Why does everything need a counter? If so every class would need a healing spell to counter any damage type spell or melee

Those two parts are not the same.

Everything needs a counter, means rock/paper/scissor.
Every class need healing, means rock beats paper and scissor, paper beats scissor and rock, scissor beats rock and paper.

Everything needs a counter could (note could, not that I want), that shield users are immune to the first 1,2,3 arrows from volley, depending on shield size, and guarding someone passes on the same protection, technically doubling the effect.
That is an example of a counter, that would force volley users to select areas more carefully, and enable roof defense using the correct classes.

You have a counter for Volley from Scouts and Rangers (from a mids view)...it`s called Hunter. (and in some form katapults)

1 hit with whatever and volley is rupted.

Volley is no brute force, it`s rng, and it`s only a problem on this server because we can`t break walls and attack from 2-3 sides.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:16 AM by bm01

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 9:23 AM
Volley doesn't snipe people. Have you read Gruenes comment on it's targeting mechanics?

"Snipes" may not have been the most accurate way to describe it, but the fact that, as you confirmed it, Volley is more effective the less targets there are in the area makes it more like an ability that you aim directly at someone than an ability that you use to put some pressure on a group of people. I understand that Volley works that way because of technical limitations, arrows aren't physical flying entities and players don't have hitboxes. But in my opinion, a solo player in the targeted area shouldn't have 50% chance to get hit.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:18 AM by Sepplord

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 10:32 AM
Why does everything need a counter? If so every class would need a healing spell to counter any damage type spell or melee

I replied to someone complaining about volley not having a counter...
This is the second time today, you somehow completey miss the context, or you are just trolling me. Either way, i would appreciate you changing something about that

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:25 AM by Sepplord

bm01 wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:16 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 9:23 AM
Volley doesn't snipe people. Have you read Gruenes comment on it's targeting mechanics?
"Snipes" may not have been the most accurate way to describe it, but the fact that, as you confirmed it, Volley is more effective the less targets there are in the area makes it more like an ability that you aim directly at someone than an ability that you use to put some pressure on a group of people. I understand that Volley works that way because of technical limitations, arrows aren't physical flying entities and players don't have hitboxes. But in my opinion, a solo player in the targeted area shouldn't have 50% chance to get hit.

okay, i get what you mean there, and agree somewhat. But is it bad enough to change the coding of the ability? A solo archer vollying an area really rarely kills someone, and even if the stars align the target has to stay in radius for over 10seconds (or his position in 5seconds is predicted by the archer when he targets an area) and not react to incoming damage within 3seconds (shortest possible timeframe between first arrow hitting and arrow number4 hitting) with legion-heal/healpot or similar

Druth wrote: Everything needs a counter could (note could, not that I want), that shield users are immune to the first 1,2,3 arrows from volley, depending on shield size, and guarding someone passes on the same protection, technically doubling the effect.
That is an example of a counter, that would force volley users to select areas more carefully, and enable roof defense using the correct classes.

Shields already block arrows really well, and guard passes that protection onto potential volley-targets (as well as the shieldtank halving the targets chance to even be hit in the first place). Isn't that enough? Are casters that have a shieldguard with them regularly volleyd to death from archers before a healer can react? I really doubt it. It really seems like solo-casters are complaining

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:27 AM by Druth

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:05 AM
You have a counter for Volley from Scouts and Rangers (from a mids view)...it`s called Hunter. (and in some form katapults)

1 hit with whatever and volley is rupted.

Volley is no brute force, it`s rng, and it`s only a problem on this server because we can`t break walls and attack from 2-3 sides.

I don't consider the same ability to be a proper counter.

Counter to NS is amnesia, interrupt, LOS, heal NS, 1 min immunity, mez/stun, and finally NS. It has several counters.
If your counter is the same ability, the ability is not designed right.

Catapults don't interrupt, I have no idea where to target it because you can't target and /face (which is a major issue) the one using volley and besides volley has higher range.

And brute force has nothing to do with it being random or not, every ability in the game has random elements.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:29 AM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:25 AM
Druth wrote: Everything needs a counter could (note could, not that I want), that shield users are immune to the first 1,2,3 arrows from volley, depending on shield size, and guarding someone passes on the same protection, technically doubling the effect.
That is an example of a counter, that would force volley users to select areas more carefully, and enable roof defense using the correct classes.

Shields already block arrows really well, and guard passes that protection onto potential volley-targets (as well as the shieldtank halving the targets chance to even be hit in the first place). Isn't that enough? Are casters that have a shieldguard with them regularly volleyd to death from archers before a healer can react? I really doubt it. It really seems like solo-casters are complaining

Roughly 30-35% from MoB 5 (which is 2 more spend points than volley...) and shield 42+17 (59), maxed temped dex and combo pot dex.
I do not mind me having low chance to block a direct incoming arrow, because I can engage.
I can not engage a volley.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:39 AM by Druth

Aside from this, the discussion reminds me of animists.
No no, nothing is wrong, you just need to play right etc etc... suddenly, major nerf, class broken.

I do not understand why people can think an ability like this is okay, since it has a counter which is the same ability... mind boggling.

If people started on ST, which is dumb. Not because of the stun immun refresh, but because I get ALL I want for 5 points.
It's a horrible design.

I would say, yes it's silly. But remember it's single target? You can leave the area fairly easy. BUT if you were to redesign it, look at "Banelord Abilities", many there are zone abilities, which could all easy replace ST. Not make it copy paste, 10 min timer would be fine, but example "Zone of Unmana" would mean going above lvl 1 would make sense suddenly.

Just like moving volley to Bow line, and add more util there, while lowering bow damage at low lvl's would suddenly make sense speccing high bow.

Anyway, that is just a departure to me not understanding why people rather want to defend abilities with claw and teeth, and not rather discuss how it could be changed to please both "sides".

Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:57 AM by Sepplord

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:27 AM
I don't consider the same ability to be a proper counter.

Counter to NS is amnesia, interrupt, LOS, heal NS, 1 min immunity, mez/stun, and finally NS. It has several counters.
If your counter is the same ability, the ability is not designed right.

Catapults don't interrupt, I have no idea where to target it because you can't target and /face (which is a major issue) the one using volley and besides volley has higher range.

And brute force has nothing to do with it being random or not, every ability in the game has random elements.

I fully agree that the counter to an ability shouldn't be the ability itself....but most of the counters you list to NS have shorter range. NS not dealing damage was a good reason though why the comparison isn't perfect. BUT, to be fair, in some situation NS will fuck someone over much harder, than getting 1k dmg out of nowwhere.

Druth wrote: Roughly 30-35% from MoB 5 (which is 2 more spend points than volley...) and shield 42+17 (59), maxed temped dex and combo pot dex.
I do not mind me having low chance to block a direct incoming arrow, because I can engage.
I can not engage a volley.

Is that your blockchance VS vollyarrows? Normal arrows? (is there a difference?)
It seems rather low imo, when i was still playing my warrior i was blocking much more than 30% without MOB without engage...but that's anecdotal and just my feeling, so could be completely off.

Druth wrote: Anyway, that is just a departure to me not understanding why people rather want to defend abilities with claw and teeth

While it might seem that i am defending it claw and teeth, that's really not my intention. I just don't see the issue and it hasn't really been made clear by the main-complainers in which situations it is an actual troubling problem ingame. You have made some good points why It might be poorly designed, but tons of stuff is, and messing with something unproblematic just because it is poor design would add about 1million issues to the to-do-list. Which again makes it weird, to single out volley as something that needs a nerf.

I personally don't use volley, it's not like i would be negatively effected by a change. It's just that one thing after another gets a huge post, and then is suddenly changed without being an actual problem

Tue 6 Aug 2019 1:32 PM by Stoertebecker

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:27 AM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:05 AM
You have a counter for Volley from Scouts and Rangers (from a mids view)...it`s called Hunter. (and in some form katapults)

1 hit with whatever and volley is rupted.

Volley is no brute force, it`s rng, and it`s only a problem on this server because we can`t break walls and attack from 2-3 sides.

I don't consider the same ability to be a proper counter.

Counter to NS is amnesia, interrupt, LOS, heal NS, 1 min immunity, mez/stun, and finally NS. It has several counters.
If your counter is the same ability, the ability is not designed right.

It doesn`t matter if it`s good designed or bad designed. It works and thats it.
What kind of counter do you wanna have? Like in the battle of the five armies, where the dwarves countered the elfes massive volley?

Catapults don't interrupt, I have no idea where to target it because you can't target and /face (which is a major issue) the one using volley and besides volley has higher range.

Catapults interrupts volley. And in a situation like yesterday at arvakr where the albs field 15-25 catapults, there is no safe room on the walls and on the gatehouse.

If you don`t have an idea where the archers could be have a closer look the next siege where our archers are. It`s no rocket science.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:14 PM by keen

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:57 AM
I personally don't use volley, it's not like i would be negatively effected by a change. It's just that one thing after another gets a huge post, and then is suddenly changed without being an actual problem

What got changed that wasn't an actual problem?

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:23 PM by Sepplord

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:14 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 11:57 AM
I personally don't use volley, it's not like i would be negatively effected by a change. It's just that one thing after another gets a huge post, and then is suddenly changed without being an actual problem
What got changed that wasn't an actual problem?

If you think about it, technically the cast-range of shrooms wasn't a problem, them being summoned into spots they don't belong in was. So technically the castrange for shrooms was changed despite that not actually being a problem

But that is nitpicking semantics and wasn't my intention with the comment...i misworded it i admit. I want to avoid something being changed unless it is a problem. That's why i question complaints and ask for specific details/situations where the problem arises.
In general changes followed something being problematic, even if i disagree with the way of implementation of some.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:30 PM by Horus

1st they came for TWF, but because I didn't use TWF I didn't speak up.
Then came for Animists, but since i didn't have an animist I didn't speak up.
Then they came for Volley, but since I didn't use Volley I didn't speak up.
When they came for me there was no one left to speak up.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:35 PM by Turano

The question I have about all of that, how do the archers get a ground target set on you, move out of face/ns range, shoot their volley, retarget where you have moved after the first volley, move back out of face/ns range and volley you again every 15 seconds?
If they have an assa in the keep providing them with fresh groundtargets every time they still have to run around all the time because groundassist has a pretty short range (1500 units maybe? Can't tell you exact numbers, I just tested that once some months ago and the range was very short)
If they don't run away that far all the time (which would be stupid as well because they would leave the safety of the zerg when they get away over 2000 units from the keep) you can simply interupt them when they charge their volley or if they charge in stealth nearsight them while they unload. Volleying archers are pretty obvious targets

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:38 PM by bm01

You don't need the help from anyone to get a ground target, F5 + arrow keys has enough range.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:38 PM by Turano

Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:30 PM
1st they came for TWF, but because I didn't use TWF I didn't speak up.
Then came for Animists, but since i didn't have an animist I didn't speak up.
Then they came for Volley, but since I didn't use Volley I didn't speak up.
When they came for me there was no one left to speak up.

I don't know if that 80 year old quote really fits the context

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:39 PM by Turano

bm01 wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:38 PM
You don't need the help from anyone to get a ground target, F5 + arrow keys has enough range.

Sure try that accurately at 2500 units on a target you can't see

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:42 PM by bm01

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:39 PM
Sure try that accurately at 2500 units on a target you can't see

You can see where your ground target is, and as soon as it disappears, you know you're aiming at the wall / tower.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:47 PM by Turano

bm01 wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:42 PM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:39 PM
Sure try that accurately at 2500 units on a target you can't see
You can see where your ground target is, and as soon as it disappears, you know you're aiming at the wall / tower.

Sure, but the whole discussion here is about archers targeting poor solos and assisting on them from beyond facing range.
You may be able to set a ground target blindly from their but you will never know what or if anyone is standing there

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:50 PM by Sepplord

gone for a few minutes and turano is basically writing my exact thoughts +adding new arguments,

you even adressed how Horus' comment was completely out of place in this discussion

Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:52 PM by bm01

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:47 PM
Sure, but the whole discussion here is about archers targeting poor solos and assisting on them from beyond facing range.
You may be able to set a ground target blindly from their but you will never know what or if anyone is standing there

I don't understand. You can see people on the wall while still being outside of facing range.
To cut this discussion short, no, you don't need to move to change your ground target and you don't need the help from another player (though it can help).

Tue 6 Aug 2019 3:00 PM by Sepplord

i can just repeat my request for a specific example of a scenario where it is problematic.

specific means to say how many archers, instead of just archers, it means include your class, groupstatus, how many arrows hit you for how much damage and when do you die.

If that is already too much work, why would a Dev put in even more work and change the code of the game?
If volley is actually such of a problem it should be easy to create such a scenario. In the TWF thread people went into pretty much detail what happens and when TWF is a problem, why isn't it being done here?

Tue 6 Aug 2019 3:28 PM by bm01

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 3:00 PM
how do they assist though, if groundassist doesn't work on that range?

It does though. Just tried it again because I thought I was going crazy. /groundassist range is longer than /face range.

Tue 6 Aug 2019 3:33 PM by Turano

You can groundassist, the one you assist to just has to be close enough. As far as I know it doesn't matter where the groundtarget is or how far it is away

Tue 6 Aug 2019 3:46 PM by Sepplord

Turano wrote: You can groundassist, the one you assist to just has to be close enough. As far as I know it doesn't matter where the groundtarget is or how far it is away

bm01 wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 3:00 PM
how do they assist though, if groundassist doesn't work on that range?
It does though. Just tried it again because I thought I was going crazy. /groundassist range is longer than /face range.

My bad, I removed that point of argumentation

Tue 6 Aug 2019 5:26 PM by Horus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:50 PM
gone for a few minutes and turano is basically writing my exact thoughts +adding new arguments,

you even adressed how Horus' comment was completely out of place in this discussion

I didn't know "white knight" was a playable class in DaoC?

Sure that quote is old and yea, being more factious than anything but..

There is a glimmer of application. Right now volley is the whine da jour. If something happens to it things will just move on to the next...

Tue 6 Aug 2019 8:13 PM by Sepplord

Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 5:26 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 6 Aug 2019 2:50 PM
gone for a few minutes and turano is basically writing my exact thoughts +adding new arguments,

you even adressed how Horus' comment was completely out of place in this discussion

I didn't know "white knight" was a playable class in DaoC?

Sure that quote is old and yea, being more factious than anything but..

There is a glimmer of application. Right now volley is the whine da jour. If something happens to it things will just move on to the next...

I like the quote, even liked your variant...
but there was noone showing ignorance because it didn't affect him. Noone mentioned at all that they don't care because their aren't affected.
quite the contrary...

so, while a great quote, with a nice variation into the daoc universum, it simply didn't fit the current context of the discussion and felt completely forced

Right now volley is the whine da jour. If something happens to it things will just move on to the next...

This is completely true, and the reason why i question the complainers...so how does this apply to me? Again this feels forced and out of place, simply doesn't make sense to me at all

PS: and why white knighting? Who's the damsel in distress?

Wed 7 Aug 2019 5:44 PM by leb

if you are under a roof volley can't hit you, but if you are in the lord room in a keep, you are hit bye gtaoe ( without los of course) you can't regen or cast i think volley is not the problem right now. Each realm have his players with volley, but if you are in the room lord against alb it's the hell for sure

Wed 7 Aug 2019 7:43 PM by Hejjin

leb wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Aug 2019 5:44 PM
if you are under a roof volley can't hit you,
snip...

That is mostly accurate, but there is a chance to be hit around the openings inside the keep, i.e close to the stairs leaving up from the commander room to the roof.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 1:12 AM by Cadebrennus

Volley is highly situational at best. Some people just won't be satisfied until Archers and other classes are nerfed into oblivion.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 7:12 AM by Hejjin

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 1:12 AM
Volley is highly situational at best. Some people just won't be satisfied until Archers and other classes are nerfed into oblivion.

Sad but true and after each successful forum bandwagon campaign they will just move on to something else that annoys them.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 8:52 AM by bm01

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 1:12 AM
Volley is highly situational at best. Some people just won't be satisfied until Archers and other classes are nerfed into oblivion.

Couldn't be more wrong. I love archers, and I wish there was a reason to spec higher than 35 in Bow. But Volley is just badly designed.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 8:57 AM by Cadebrennus

bm01 wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 8:52 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 1:12 AM
Volley is highly situational at best. Some people just won't be satisfied until Archers and other classes are nerfed into oblivion.
Couldn't be more wrong. I love archers, and I wish there was a reason to spec higher than 35 in Bow. But Volley is just badly designed.

It could be better, actually. I think right now it's less than optimal, and this is coming from someone who's been on the receiving end of a bunch of volleys during keep sieges. Sadly even an unspecced shield is a highly effective form of reducing a lot of volley damage. I say that it's sadly because an unspecced shield costs nothing while Volley costs RPs.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 10:49 AM by Anelyn77

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 8:57 AM
bm01 wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 8:52 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 1:12 AM
Volley is highly situational at best. Some people just won't be satisfied until Archers and other classes are nerfed into oblivion.
Couldn't be more wrong. I love archers, and I wish there was a reason to spec higher than 35 in Bow. But Volley is just badly designed.

It could be better, actually. I think right now it's less than optimal, and this is coming from someone who's been on the receiving end of a bunch of volleys during keep sieges. Sadly even an unspecced shield is a highly effective form of reducing a lot of volley damage. I say that it's sadly because an unspecced shield costs nothing while Volley costs RPs.

RNG is RNG. Earlier today when we defended Crim (Gorion bg) our reaver (guild grp) with 41+13 shield and mob 3 died to a volley before healers could pick him up (it's a reaver, with spec shield and some mob, our 2 wizards were falling like flies but that's not relevant). So you may or may not block, you can't engage what you can't see / target (range / walls etc). Siege pretty much turned into a big AoE fest, who has more of this or that, wins, hands down (more archers assisting GT volley, more TWF, more NM, more pbaoe moc casters with guard and dedicated healers, more gtaoe assist wizards / elds / rm's).

Which makes it not very enjoyable for both attackers and defenders, it's not like open field fights where you can avoid a lot of damage by positioning, pulling back or pushing in, countering enemy RA's with your own etc.

/Aicha's toons <3

Fri 9 Aug 2019 10:58 AM by Turano

Again thanks to all the voters. NF is great and the epic keep fights are the pinacle of gameplay

Fri 9 Aug 2019 11:26 AM by Sepplord

Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 10:49 AM
RNG is RNG. Earlier today when we defended Crim (Gorion bg) our reaver (guild grp) with 41+13 shield and mob 3 died to a volley before healers could pick him up (it's a reaver, with spec shield and some mob, our 2 wizards were falling like flies but that's not relevant). So you may or may not block, you can't engage what you can't see / target (range / walls etc). Siege pretty much turned into a big AoE fest, who has more of this or that, wins, hands down (more archers assisting GT volley, more TWF, more NM, more pbaoe moc casters with guard and dedicated healers, more gtaoe assist wizards / elds / rm's).

Which makes it not very enjoyable for both attackers and defenders, it's not like open field fights where you can avoid a lot of damage by positioning, pulling back or pushing in, countering enemy RA's with your own etc.

/Aicha's toons <3

"multiple" volleys, not "a" volley...that is painting the wrong picture (not saying you are doing that intentionally, but you are doing it)

Siege pretty much turned into a big AoE fest, who has more of this or that, wins, hands down

A zerg activity that is heavily decided by who fields the bigger numbers? Who would have thought...
Yeah it's harder to bomb hundred noobs with a bomb group now, but the noobs today aren'T as nooby as the noobs were back then, i fail to see how that has anything to do with volley.

I also disagree that you cannot avoid dmg by positioning, simply by standing near someone else you will split up the dmg and make it shit easy to heal, and even a single archers volley (assuming a 0,4% chance that all 5arrows hit a target) takes 4seconds from first dmg to last dmg...if your healer can't cast a heal in 4seconds, then that is also not on volley. If you go into a dangerzone during a keepsiege then your healers should be precasting heals too...if noone takes dmg, take a step forward to abort the cast...etc...)

Fri 9 Aug 2019 2:31 PM by gotwqqd

Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 10:49 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 8:57 AM
bm01 wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 8:52 AM
Couldn't be more wrong. I love archers, and I wish there was a reason to spec higher than 35 in Bow. But Volley is just badly designed.

It could be better, actually. I think right now it's less than optimal, and this is coming from someone who's been on the receiving end of a bunch of volleys during keep sieges. Sadly even an unspecced shield is a highly effective form of reducing a lot of volley damage. I say that it's sadly because an unspecced shield costs nothing while Volley costs RPs.

RNG is RNG. Earlier today when we defended Crim (Gorion bg) our reaver (guild grp) with 41+13 shield and mob 3 died to a volley before healers could pick him up (it's a reaver, with spec shield and some mob, our 2 wizards were falling like flies but that's not relevant). So you may or may not block, you can't engage what you can't see / target (range / walls etc). Siege pretty much turned into a big AoE fest, who has more of this or that, wins, hands down (more archers assisting GT volley, more TWF, more NM, more pbaoe moc casters with guard and dedicated healers, more gtaoe assist wizards / elds / rm's).

Which makes it not very enjoyable for both attackers and defenders, it's not like open field fights where you can avoid a lot of damage by positioning, pulling back or pushing in, countering enemy RA's with your own etc.

/Aicha's toons <3

How about creating a force that leaves the keep

Fri 9 Aug 2019 3:53 PM by Aph

Wow... 24 pages of tears over volley?? This indicates what type of player posts on the forums

I think I have been hit by volley one time since release. It’s all good lock the post.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:41 PM by Leandrys

Kek, volley is all good, tell that to albs trying to attack Eras. Volley with such timer is broken when spammed, timer needs a nerf, that's all.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:49 PM by Aph

When there is this many rangers all deffing keeps for a living, I guess it’s close to impossible to attack? But that doesent mean it’s imbalanced. Just let them
Rot and take another keep? You can’t expect to be able to brute force any keep just because you have numbers on em; and then when it goes south it’s 24 pages of nerf this please.

Then they all go to the next fotm Zerg class until that gets nerfed? Just look at relvinian.

Fri 9 Aug 2019 6:07 PM by Leandrys

Yes, because when something is broken, you just avoid it.

Sat 10 Aug 2019 8:49 AM by Cadebrennus

Aph wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:49 PM
When there is this many rangers all deffing keeps for a living, I guess it’s close to impossible to attack? But that doesent mean it’s imbalanced. Just let them
Rot and take another keep? You can’t expect to be able to brute force any keep just because you have numbers on em; and then when it goes south it’s 24 pages of nerf this please.

Then they all go to the next fotm Zerg class until that gets nerfed? Just look at relvinian.

The Rangers have little to do with sieging/defending a keep being impossible. Never once has anyone issued a retreat order due to Rangers. It's always been because of animists.

Sat 10 Aug 2019 9:51 AM by Hejjin

Aph wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:49 PM
When there is this many rangers all deffing keeps for a living, I guess it’s close to impossible to attack?
snip...

Most of the complaints have been about volley making it very difficult to defend the keep towers, but your post is about archers making attacks against keeps difficult, so which is it? Archers defending from on top of the tower roof have minimum range restrictions applied to their volleys which means they would be mostly unable to target the area immediately in front of the inner tower door where the rams are placed. They can of course target areas further away than that, but those targeted can easily move.

Sat 10 Aug 2019 11:23 AM by Leandrys

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Aug 2019 8:49 AM
The Rangers have little to do with sieging/defending a keep being impossible. Never once has anyone issued a retreat order due to Rangers. It's always been because of animists.

Lol, Alb BG had to leave twice Erasleigh yesterday and leave it to hib, 100% cause of rangers.

Sat 10 Aug 2019 1:19 PM by Stoertebecker

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Fri 9 Aug 2019 5:41 PM
Kek, volley is all good, tell that to albs trying to attack Eras. Volley with such timer is broken when spammed, timer needs a nerf, that's all.

But 20-25 katapults shooting the first door down without a ram is ok

Sat 10 Aug 2019 4:20 PM by Leandrys

And back to previous point allready written long ago, when spamming one single ability/skill/material allows to take an unbeatable advantage, it means this has to be nerfed.

Congratulations, you finally agree saw the truth, volley has to be nerfed.

Sat 10 Aug 2019 5:20 PM by Stoertebecker

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Aug 2019 4:20 PM
And back to previous point allready written long ago, when spamming one single ability/skill/material allows to take an unbeatable advantage, it means this has to be nerfed.

Congratulations, you finally agree saw the truth, volley has to be nerfed.

I`d be very careful with nerfs at a playerbase around 1200 @pt.

Sat 10 Aug 2019 5:48 PM by Sepplord

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Aug 2019 4:20 PM
And back to previous point allready written long ago, when spamming one single ability/skill/material allows to take an unbeatable advantage, it means this has to be nerfed.

Congratulations, you finally agree saw the truth, volley has to be nerfed.

Again, feel free to list a scenario where volley is an unbetable advantage.

Include specific numbers and details what is happening. If you can't even do that (and so far noone in this thread has, despite me asking multiple times) then the problem as you claim isn't existant

Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:58 AM by Leandrys

The spam lol. You just told the same thing with catapults, volley's spam works the same way. Spam gives too much of an advantage on a position and makes it impossible for the attackers (most of time) to attack it if there are just a few archers defending, specially rangers as they have the best bow's damages without the need of beeing grouped and buffed, + the slower possible bow.

Nerf the timer to balance the ability's spam, that's all. Nerf max number of catapults that can be deployed in a zone to balance the spam, easy balance.

You just said there was a problem with catapult's spam, well guess what, it's less dangerous than volley's spam, by far. Only thing saving us for now is most archers are potatoes who can't groundassist for even drop and place their own GT, but Hibernia in particular is starting to understand the problem with volley and abuse it.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:24 AM by Sepplord

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 12:58 AM
The spam lol. You just told the same thing with catapults, volley's spam works the same way. Spam gives too much of an advantage on a position and makes it impossible for the attackers (most of time) to attack it if there are just a few archers defending, specially rangers as they have the best bow's damages without the need of beeing grouped and buffed, + the slower possible bow.

Nerf the timer to balance the ability's spam, that's all. Nerf max number of catapults that can be deployed in a zone to balance the spam, easy balance.

You just said there was a problem with catapult's spam, well guess what, it's less dangerous than volley's spam, by far. Only thing saving us for now is most archers are potatoes who can't groundassist for even drop and place their own GT, but Hibernia in particular is starting to understand the problem with volley and abuse it.

How many archers, VS how many attackers create this OP-spam? Seriously...how hard could it be to give specifics...
Or do you always realise that when going into specifics that it's usually a boatload of archers VS a few attackers?

Especially considering the limitations of volley, and the attackers ability to spread, makes volley/catapults/GTAOE a better tool for offense than defense

Mon 12 Aug 2019 8:42 AM by Chaskha

1. A limited number of players play an archer
2. Volley is siege defense and for once, it is according to reality that you can hide behind a structure and still band your bow and throw arrows in some approximate direction. You want to hit those bastards hidding? Get a catapult and place your GT accordingly.
3. There shouldn't be a nerf to the number of catapults but a minimal distance between two
4. Nerfs are only removing toys to little boys and girls, removing too many toys and you don't want to play anymore. It's just human. Of course volley HAS to do big damages, just like shrooms should insta kill an ennemy idiotingly rushing an animist plantation, just like people staying inside a TWF should die, just like a sit caster should explode under a good Perfore Artery. DAoC was NEVER a game of well adjusted balance per class/skill. It's AIM was a per REALM Balance overall and sure it can't be perfect but that's also the beauty of this game.

Just stop asking for nerfs unless there is a clear ABUSE (like unlimited shrooms per area was for Hibernia).

And I don't play any archer 50, I am an animist dying under volley.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 12:54 PM by Leandrys

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:24 AM
How many archers, VS how many attackers create this OP-spam? Seriously...how hard could it be to give specifics...
Or do you always realise that when going into specifics that it's usually a boatload of archers VS a few attackers?

Especially considering the limitations of volley, and the attackers ability to spread, makes volley/catapults/GTAOE a better tool for offense than defense

Sorry, but what do you not understand in "spam" ?

Mon 12 Aug 2019 12:56 PM by Leandrys

Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 8:42 AM
1. A limited number of players play an archer

Chaskha, you play on hib, and hib is having more and more rangers only using volley in every sieges, this might be why you do not see that much scouts and hunters in sieges. I play both alb and hib, honnestly, volley has to take a timer nerf.

And if we start to balance DAOC according to reality, well... We'll end with Mount and Blade Warband's RvR, no healer's, no buffs, no magic, blades, axes, shields and bows.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 1:52 PM by Horus

As far as threads go, all the flavor has been chewed out of this gum...

Mon 12 Aug 2019 2:16 PM by Sepplord

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 12:54 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:24 AM
How many archers, VS how many attackers create this OP-spam? Seriously...how hard could it be to give specifics...
Or do you always realise that when going into specifics that it's usually a boatload of archers VS a few attackers?

Especially considering the limitations of volley, and the attackers ability to spread, makes volley/catapults/GTAOE a better tool for offense than defense

Sorry, but what do you not understand in "spam" ?

Sorry, but what do you not understand about "being specific"

a single archer "spam"-volleying 100attackers will not create any probelamtic situation. So, now that it is established that "spam" isn't the problem in all scenarios (apart from once-per-15seconds hardly being spam) now you can give an example where it is...

Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:12 PM by Leandrys

Not talking about one single archer lo, what are you talking about ?

The spam of an ability, the same way you said earlier the spam of catapults was a problem :

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Aug 2019 1:19 PM
But 20-25 katapults shooting the first door down without a ram is ok

Well guess what, the spam of volley ability is a problem too. Same logic, your own one, you do not agree with yourself ?

Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:23 PM by Stoertebecker

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:12 PM
Not talking about one single archer lo, what are you talking about ?

The spam of an ability, the same way you said earlier the spam of catapults was a problem :
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Aug 2019 1:19 PM
But 20-25 katapults shooting the first door down without a ram is ok

Well guess what, the spam of volley ability is a problem too. Same logic, your own one, you do not agree with yourself ?

With a lil difference. Catapults never did such damage that they can shoot down a keep gate, not with 20, not with 50 catapults. They were always for area damage.
Volley did always such damage if archers assist their groundtargets, even on 30s timer. But they nerfed the hight advantage that archers don`t have this ridicilous 3600+ Range while standing on the center keeps roof.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:53 PM by Chaskha

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 12:56 PM
Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 8:42 AM
1. A limited number of players play an archer

Chaskha, you play on hib, and hib is having more and more rangers only using volley in every sieges, this might be why you do not see that much scouts and hunters in sieges. I play both alb and hib, honnestly, volley has to take a timer nerf.

And if we start to balance DAOC according to reality, well... We'll end with Mount and Blade Warband's RvR, no healer's, no buffs, no magic, blades, axes, shields and bows.

That's absolutely not what I said. I never adviced to stick to reality but mentionned that EVEN in reality arrows volley are possible.

Anyway, point 4 was the most important.

In the end it seems an opinion post, there are no numbers and nothing concrete to hold on to (and as such, I just provided my opinion too)

Mon 12 Aug 2019 6:22 PM by Leandrys

And point 4 is the worst of them, nerfs are made to balance something when it starts to break the game, TWF was RvR breaking, it had to be nerfed, BD's pets were broken AF, they had to be nerfed, if we start to see more and more archer ground-assisting, volley will become game-breaking at some point and the population will lower more than simply losing a few kids that can't play DAOC without having the feeling to be smarter than everybody else because they abuse of broken mechanics.

Balancing without gimping is hard, Phoenix did this with shrooms and as i m actually playing Albion, i can tell you they're mostly useless when you're in a decent group, this is the typical case where balance remains broken, but just in the exact opposite way than before, that's why i think volley will have to see its timer nerfed at some point, right now you can be spamming arrows constantly, or almost so, depending of a small bug, this is what makes the ability dangerous on the long run.

Remember we do have ultra nerfed classes compared to live here, most of healers run OOP in a few burstheals, casters have very low HP and almost nobody plays with capped buffs, any ability that used to be decent/balanced in the past can reveal itself as broken here, this is what did happen with TWF and this could also happen with volley. And if it does, i hope staff is closely monitoring volley's effectiveness, because it's able to quickly disgust a lot of casual people from the game.

Mon 12 Aug 2019 10:03 PM by Boomslang

I said this before, the ability itself is not broken. The issue is due to it being just an RA that is why so many Archers have and use volley. The good archers use /groundassist to maximize damage. If you want a fair and balanced adjustment to Volley, tie it to Bow Spec and make it a 50 Spec Bow ability. Lots less archers would have it then since so many like to go melee or hybrid.

Skorpos - Hibernia Ranger

Tue 13 Aug 2019 6:24 AM by Sepplord

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Mon 12 Aug 2019 5:12 PM
Not talking about one single archer lo, what are you talking about ?

I know, i tried a different approach, since asking you directly to provide a specific example didn't help...please, tell us specifics what you are talking about.

You seem very convinced that volley is a problem, yet cannot even paint a single scenario where it is problematic. You are trying to get something nerfed while generalism that "archers" (an undefined amount) is spamming an ability and that will soon "break the game". Then you go off tangent and try to compare to other recent nerfs.

get specific or gtfo

Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:40 AM by Leandrys

Wth is wrong with you ? "SPAM"

U got it ? "SPAM". Numbers do not matter, the more there are, the more destructive and gamebreaking the RA is, because there's not limit, do we have to explain every words around it ? Is that a case of personnal condition with words or something ? When people were complaining about their email boxes beeing spammed to death in the early 200x, were you replying to ask them "to define exactly the numbers of spam emails they were receiving" ?

Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:22 AM by Sepplord

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:40 AM
Wth is wrong with you ? "SPAM"

U got it ? "SPAM". Numbers do not matter, the more there are, the more destructive and gamebreaking the RA is, because there's not limit, do we have to explain every words around it ? Is that a case of personnal condition with words or something ? When people were complaining about their email boxes beeing spammed to death in the early 200x, were you replying to ask them "to define exactly the numbers of spam emails they were receiving" ?

Okay, good luck getting something nerfed when all you can bark is SPAAAAMMM

If you can't even define the specifics of the problem, then there isn't a problem

Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:36 AM by Stoertebecker

Gamebreaking ra.....

Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:56 AM by Glimmer

Lol this thread, tryed to read some post but rly... some ppls just cant play this game without qq. Hope this will be locked soon.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 12:29 PM by Leandrys

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:22 AM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:40 AM
Wth is wrong with you ? "SPAM"

U got it ? "SPAM". Numbers do not matter, the more there are, the more destructive and gamebreaking the RA is, because there's not limit, do we have to explain every words around it ? Is that a case of personnal condition with words or something ? When people were complaining about their email boxes beeing spammed to death in the early 200x, were you replying to ask them "to define exactly the numbers of spam emails they were receiving" ?

Okay, good luck getting something nerfed when all you can bark is SPAAAAMMM

If you can't even define the specifics of the problem, then there isn't a problem

OK so you're not really have a personnal condition with words, at this points it's something else. You're just trolling and trying to force topic's derailling.

"The more there are, the more destructive and gamebreaking the RA is"

Look, it's even described. But hey, you "do not use volley". :wink:

Tue 13 Aug 2019 12:37 PM by Sepplord

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 12:29 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 10:22 AM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 9:40 AM
Wth is wrong with you ? "SPAM"

U got it ? "SPAM". Numbers do not matter, the more there are, the more destructive and gamebreaking the RA is, because there's not limit, do we have to explain every words around it ? Is that a case of personnal condition with words or something ? When people were complaining about their email boxes beeing spammed to death in the early 200x, were you replying to ask them "to define exactly the numbers of spam emails they were receiving" ?

Okay, good luck getting something nerfed when all you can bark is SPAAAAMMM

If you can't even define the specifics of the problem, then there isn't a problem

OK so you're not really have a personnal condition with words, at this points it's something else. You're just trolling and trying to force topic's derailling.

"The more there are, the more destructive and gamebreaking the RA is"

Look, it's even described. But hey, you "do not use volley". :wink:

quit spreading lies, i am not derailing, i am asking you to provide details. You object to do so.
And since i don't stop calling you out on vague reports to get the game changed, you are now trying to discredit me personally by making it seem like i am a volley user.

i am not even saying that there isn't a problem, i am asking for people to describe a specific scenario and so far not a single one has delivered. And before you quote me out of context...the only times i have hinted at there not being a problem was after people like you repeatedly dodged the question.

Refuting your bullshit takes more effort than you making it up...but i am willing to put that in
I could post a link to my hunters herald with 0RPs for weeks, but it really doesn't matter if i have and play a hunter or not. You do not have an argument, and are projecting your thread derailments onto me. If you would want to discuss volley, you would actually talk about volley and not about me in all your latest comments.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:22 PM by Leandrys

Oh god.

"Spam."

"The more used, the worst".

It shouldn't be that hard to understand, it's just a few words, you are clearly trying to derail the topic.

You want numbers ? I'll give you.

One volley makes random damages. Two volley makes more random damages. Three volley makes even more damages. Same for 4. 5. 6. 7 is even worse. 15 Also. 150 even worse.

"The more, the worst". See ? Giving numbers is idiotic when talking about spam.

Difference with common abilites (as you can spam everything in game) is you can't really counter them, except with stupid arguments with Stoertebecker's one ("use volley as counter for volley", the definition of something broken), there comes a moment where no matters if you have 50 people attacking, healer arn't able to sustain the amounts of damages at all, even if there are only 10-15 guys defending it. This is Phoenix, not live, chars do not have almost infinite mana, specially in Keep BG where a lot of support arn't temp'ed or even 50.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:33 PM by Sepplord

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:22 PM
[...]

You seem really annoyed, yet still can't put in at least a few minutes to calmly think it through.
No, More doesn't increase the problem, that's actually the point with volley, and why it's not a problem.

1archer vollying 1person doesn't kill that person

5archers vollying 5people doesn't kill those 5

50archers vollying 50people doesn't kill those 50

5archers vollying ONE person, person dies and whines on forum

There, i gave specific examples again, there are many more if you reread the thread. Yet you only focus on one bullshit reply one person made, because it fits your agenda. I have in an earlier comment done the math and listed a few probabilities of different amounts of archers vollying different amount of people and found nothing that looked problematic. Since then i have been asking you and others that cry about volley to do the same.

Please, instead of being overdramatic with remarks like "oh god" put that energy into an actual scenario.

PS:

You want numbers ? I'll give you.
One volley makes random damages.

Seriously, was that an actual try to give specific numbers and you had to go to "random damage" within the first five words

ops:
In german we have the word fremdschämen...that's how i felt when reading your post

Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:57 PM by Stoertebecker

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:22 PM
Difference with common abilites (as you can spam everything in game) is you can't really counter them, except with stupid arguments with Stoertebecker's one ("use volley as counter for volley",

The fine thing is that it works, but hey....why use strategy and tactics if whining in a forum and crying for nerfs works even better and covers the l2p issues of 50% of our playerbase?

Was trying to volley PK today, did not work, not only 1 died...damn.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 2:00 PM by Sepplord

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:57 PM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:22 PM
Difference with common abilites (as you can spam everything in game) is you can't really counter them, except with stupid arguments with Stoertebecker's one ("use volley as counter for volley",

The fine thing is that it works, but hey....why use strategy and tactics if whining in a forum and crying for nerfs works even better and covers the l2p issues of 50% of our playerbase?

As much as i agree that volley isn't a problem, listing an abiltity as counter to itself really doesn't help the argument. If the only thing to do against volley would be volley back, then that would actually be an indicator that something is wrong and needs change. (i don't think it's the only thing to do tough, it's just one option)

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:00 PM by Stoertebecker

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 2:00 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:57 PM
Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 1:22 PM
Difference with common abilites (as you can spam everything in game) is you can't really counter them, except with stupid arguments with Stoertebecker's one ("use volley as counter for volley",

The fine thing is that it works, but hey....why use strategy and tactics if whining in a forum and crying for nerfs works even better and covers the l2p issues of 50% of our playerbase?

As much as i agree that volley isn't a problem, listing an abiltity as counter to itself really doesn't help the argument. If the only thing to do against volley would be volley back, then that would actually be an indicator that something is wrong and needs change. (i don't think it's the only thing to do tough, it's just one option)

I don`t list it as a counter, but it`s something that work like getting out of the volley area or use structures to cover. Why do all stuff needs a counter if the best counter is common sense? Or do ppl stay inside a twf or static? Nope, they move their ass out of the area.

And i have my doubts that the problem would be solved with increasing the timer, with enough coordinated archers the effect would be still the same.
I´d tweak the range of volley. 3600+ range is not necessary.

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:39 PM by cere2

IMO, the archery change that Live did long ago was needed.

Archery on Phoenix provides no utility. Procs interrupt constantly, vs anyone with a shield, suicide. Evading critical shots? Matrix like BS. Pop out of stealth when trying to crit? What did someone hear the bow creak or something? Awesomeness.

When archery changed on live and it went to spell like mechanics, crit-shot...no block, no evade, 20 sec rut. Does not pop you out of stealth. Just so much more utility and gave reason to spec high bow. On Live if you have 17+13 bow, your damage with bow is garbage. Here at 35 +13 your hitting for pretty much full damage.

However, at this point If they nerf Volley, imagine how many rangers/hunters/scouts will be gonzo.
I don't even have the ability because I am melee spec on my ranger, but if I was bow spec, I definitely would train volley.
Reduce the range IMO so that they need to be in range of cata's etc if they want to pop this ability off.

So many other issues that need addressed too though, PBAOE spells inside keeps/towers is bs too. Need to have LOS check on pretty much all spells/abilities/RA's

Tue 13 Aug 2019 3:50 PM by brewtus23

How is this thread not locked yet? The post from people complaining about it are very difficult to read. If any change is made i will say i like boomslangs comment about changing volley from a RA and putting it as the lvl 50 bow spec ability. Other then that there is nothing wrong with volley. Please lock this thread as it is out of control

Tue 13 Aug 2019 5:02 PM by Isavyr

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 12:37 PM
i am asking for people to describe a specific scenario and so far not a single one has delivered.

I was defending Nottmoor Faste (iirc) and the enemy had broken the outer doors, but not the inner doors. 3+ enemy archers were posted on the nearest tower @ some 3k range, and were using volley on people on top of the keep. Assassins nor light-tanks can climb to the very top of the tower, and nobody can reach it with bolts or nearsight. This creates two problems:
1) There wasn't any known counter except volley (only nuclear weapons counter nuclear weapons--not good design)
2) The damage was sufficient to kill solo casters instantly, and enough to deter anybody from being outside of the keep

I think good arguments were already made about why the ability is stupid, whether it's strong or not. It exists outside the DAOC framework with its 3k+ range. It's untenable.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:06 AM by RobbiCog

Maybe the OP meant to nerf them 20 more than the HA already does?

There should be an easy way for Riot to code in that Teammate-Healing abilities basically ranged or aura-healing abilities could be nerfed without nerfing Self-Healing in the process. It would be along the same lines as having Melee-only abilities or items vs. Ranged-only abilities or items.

Even if the OP didnt mean this, it would help even out the Sustain vs. Non-Sustain team comps that usually appear in ARAM. Along with this, I also feel that Shields are too strong in ARAM as they can often make or break a Team Fight depending on the team comp. Ive often seen Team Comps with Orianna, Karma, and Janna all on the same team. Breaking through those shields alone normally results in a 3v5 for the non-shield oriented team.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 2:39 AM by bm01

"Hitting the same target three or even two times in a row is very rare"
"Shield makes you almost immune to volley"
"If you move away immediately you won't get hit" (I moved away immediately).

Here's the example you've been asking for so long, a solo ranger putting me to less than 50% in 2 seconds. Yes, it was with volley. No, I can't prove it.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 5:38 AM by gotwqqd

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 2:39 AM
"Hitting the same target three or even two times in a row is very rare"
"Shield makes you almost immune to volley"
"If you move away immediately you won't get hit" (I moved away immediately).

Here's the example you've been asking for so long, a solo ranger putting me to less than 50% in 2 seconds. Yes, it was with volley. No, I can't prove it.

So each shot is 1second between?
Seems like you lived because you weren’t afk
Was anyone else in area?

Wed 14 Aug 2019 5:59 AM by Isavyr

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 5:38 AM
So each shot is 1second between?
Seems like you lived because you weren’t afk
Was anyone else in area?

Does it matter? Why is there an ability that shoots at 3k+ range, when no other ability in the game has this capability? Why is there an ability that bypasses the range mechanics completely? (1500 normal range, 1875 timed damage, special ~2k for archers, 2300 for non-damaging control spells--amnesia + nearsight). It seems simply gross that anything would bypass 2300 range.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 6:07 AM by Leandrys

Well i can understand the range and the damage, not the ability to use it constantly or almost so.

Although, while a timer nerf seems the best option to me, maybe a lower in damages could be nice. After all, high trajectory shots shouldn't deal the same damages than straight to target shots to target, as someone mentionned IRL earlier. :'

Wed 14 Aug 2019 6:35 AM by Sepplord

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 5:02 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 13 Aug 2019 12:37 PM
i am asking for people to describe a specific scenario and so far not a single one has delivered.

I was defending Nottmoor Faste (iirc) and the enemy had broken the outer doors, but not the inner doors. 3+ enemy archers were posted on the nearest tower @ some 3k range, and were using volley on people on top of the keep. Assassins nor light-tanks can climb to the very top of the tower, and nobody can reach it with bolts or nearsight. This creates two problems:
1) There wasn't any known counter except volley (only nuclear weapons counter nuclear weapons--not good design)
2) The damage was sufficient to kill solo casters instantly, and enough to deter anybody from being outside of the keep

I think good arguments were already made about why the ability is stupid, whether it's strong or not. It exists outside the DAOC framework with its 3k+ range. It's untenable.

No offense please, but that example is now that 3archers coordinating are killing solos...and we still don't know attacking force and defending force.
3Archers perfectly timing their shots together is 3arrows every second, with 1second between each arrow and then a 10second pause. That is not impossible to outplay.
Is the range REALLY the problem here? If those archers were positioned closer, inside the keep....would the defending force suddenly charge out to kill them? They could coordinate that, but can't coordinate to have people go onto the roof with shield guards and/or healers ready below?

bm01 wrote: "Hitting the same target three or even two times in a row is very rare"
"Shield makes you almost immune to volley"
"If you move away immediately you won't get hit" (I moved away immediately).

Here's the example you've been asking for so long, a solo ranger putting me to less than 50% in 2 seconds. Yes, it was with volley. No, I can't prove it.

No need to prove it, i believe you...though it still doesn't show much. What it DOES Show though, is that you were able to move out before getting killed, despite being solo. With example i didn't neccessarily mean proof of an incident happening. Just someone calculating it through, naming size of attacking force, size iof defending force, amount of archer...etc... would be fine too. No need for proof as the mechanics themselves are not really questioned here, it should be possible to paperDAoC a problematic situation if there is an actual problem.

Where are those quotes from btw. because i don't think i wrote that (hopefully i didn'T fuck up earlier

) but they don't make sense to me. It sounds though as if you are adressing me directly when you mention someone asking for an example, because i actually have done that quite a few times. Hitting the same target two times in a row if it is the sole target in the area is a 25% chance, i wouldn't say that is very rare. And how could someone move away immediatly (after what?) without getting hit. Getting hit, would be the reasonable trigger to know you are getting vollyed, THEN you can move away. So moving away kind of means that you got hit already.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 7:27 AM by Isavyr

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 6:35 AM
No offense please, but that example is now that 3archers coordinating are killing solos...and we still don't know attacking force and defending force.

It's irrelevant, in my opinion, for the reasons already stated: That volley's "counter" is using the same ability in response--in other words, there is no actual counter.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 6:35 AM
Is the range REALLY the problem here? If those archers were positioned closer, inside the keep....would the defending force suddenly charge out to kill them? They could coordinate that, but can't coordinate to have people go onto the roof with shield guards and/or healers ready below?

Yes, yes the range is exactly the problem. Basically if an enemy can attack with impunity, people will flee a certain area. This isn't reasonable. Archers need to be included in the DAOC range framework. If you're dealing damage, you should be within nearsight/amnesia range. If the archers were forced to enter the keep, it's certain that they will not be able to volley with impunity; they'd have to deal with assassins, CC, damage, gtae, so forth.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 8:48 AM by Sepplord

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 7:27 AM
It's irrelevant, in my opinion, for the reasons already stated: That volley's "counter" is using the same ability in response--in other words, there is no actual counter.

I never claimed that volley is the only counter, just because one person made that claim (and he even cleared up that he didn't mean to say it was the ONLY counter) it is now parroted around like the messias of the volley-nerf movement. Seriously, the argument itself is bullshit and using it as counterpoint is equally bullshit.

Isavyr wrote: Yes, yes the range is exactly the problem. Basically if an enemy can attack with impunity, people will flee a certain area. This isn't reasonable. Archers need to be included in the DAOC range framework. If you're dealing damage, you should be within nearsight/amnesia range. If the archers were forced to enter the keep, it's certain that they will not be able to volley with impunity; they'd have to deal with assassins, CC, damage, gtae, so forth.

I don't think the people that can't coordinate defensives against volley now will be able to do that when the archers are sitting in a sidetower of the keepwall, but you might have a point. I just don't think that it would actually change much about the problem that some percieve in volley currently. But it could give assassins something to do in the siege meta, which would be a good thing.

To get a better grasp about that problem scenario: At how many keeps is this possible at all? At the keeps where it works, what towerlevel is required for it to be possible?

Wed 14 Aug 2019 8:57 AM by Druth

Last weeks most popular class was rangers.

My guess is that the nerf will hit pretty hard suddenly, destroying archers like with animists, because the discussion dissolves into trench warfare, instead of being constructive.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:11 AM by Sepplord

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 8:57 AM
Last weeks most popular class was rangers.

My guess is that the nerf will hit pretty hard suddenly, destroying archers like with animists, because the discussion dissolves into trench warfare, instead of being constructive.

I hope for them that it doesn't happen like that, no class deserves such treatment.
Is it only Hibs/rangers doing it so excessively?

Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:25 PM by Sleepwell

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 7:27 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 6:35 AM
No offense please, but that example is now that 3archers coordinating are killing solos...and we still don't know attacking force and defending force.

It's irrelevant, in my opinion, for the reasons already stated: That volley's "counter" is using the same ability in response--in other words, there is no actual counter.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 6:35 AM
Is the range REALLY the problem here? If those archers were positioned closer, inside the keep....would the defending force suddenly charge out to kill them? They could coordinate that, but can't coordinate to have people go onto the roof with shield guards and/or healers ready below?

Yes, yes the range is exactly the problem. Basically if an enemy can attack with impunity, people will flee a certain area. This isn't reasonable. Archers need to be included in the DAOC range framework. If you're dealing damage, you should be within nearsight/amnesia range. If the archers were forced to enter the keep, it's certain that they will not be able to volley with impunity; they'd have to deal with assassins, CC, damage, gtae, so forth.

Whats next on the chopping block? I play and hunter and i won't disagree completely with the notion that volley may need an adjustment, but there are 9,000 opinions on what should happen. Then the ball is rolling. Whats next. The next spell or RA that someone dislikes has a thread started so we can devolve it as well? Your last paragraph you mention that archers need to be included in the DAOC range framework. That may be the case, but "then" you could also make the case that GTAoEr's shouldnt be able to hit targets in an enclosed envrionment , like the lord room of a defended keep? Thats how this goes. One thing lead to another, and another, and as i stated in a previous thread, we can all carry sticks to the battlefield and hit each other with those. Same range mechanics, same damage table, same (insert next) and let ROG decide the outcome for us.

DAoC has always been rock/paper/scissors. I love plying my Zerk more than any class, but this patch level with custom changes without New RA charge basically makes me a stun-locked mezzed out knot on a log for an extended amount of time. I'm not calling for a stun nerf, or a mez nerf, or even a nerf between melee stuns and magical stuns (which are on a different timer). I'm not calling for a nerf between constant lock down mode on any of my melee classes. I adapt or i log. Those who havent been banned, or havent quit are doing the same. For the moment i would prefer reasonable conversations with legitimate ideas rather than just saying "swing the nerf hammer" (not suggesting thats what you're saying). Im just offering up the juice for the next round of , " ok you nerfed that..... Next....." :-)

Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:50 PM by Horus

Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 8:57 AM
Last weeks most popular class was rangers.

My guess is that the nerf will hit pretty hard suddenly, destroying archers like with animists, because the discussion dissolves into trench warfare, instead of being constructive.

The current state of the game is attractive for archers. BG vs BG keep attack/defense allows non-melee archers to actually have something to do. Volley is part of that because it is just an attractive RA for the current state of the game. Quite frankly, non melee spec archers are not viable in any other situation. You take the ability to be viable in large scale keep attacks/defense and there is no reason to play one any longer.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 3:53 PM by Isavyr

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 8:48 AM
I don't think the people that can't coordinate defensives against volley now will be able to do that when the archers are sitting in a sidetower of the keepwall, but you might have a point. I just don't think that it would actually change much about the problem that some percieve in volley currently. But it could give assassins something to do in the siege meta, which would be a good thing.

To get a better grasp about that problem scenario: At how many keeps is this possible at all? At the keeps where it works, what towerlevel is required for it to be possible?

I think the question should be asked the other way around--in what situations do they need 3k+ range? I can't think of one. There is no reason for the ability to be designed around this range, and it doesn't fit into DAOC's framework. Damage range should never exceed amnesia/nearsight, regardless of whether towers or keeps exist.

Also, your reply seems a little silly. Are you telling me casters never get smacked down in keep situations? I see it all day long. An enemy that has to be in range of other enemies is inherently vulnerable. Volley doesn't suffer from any vulnerabilities.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:05 PM by Isavyr

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:25 PM
Whats next on the chopping block? I play and hunter and i won't disagree completely with the notion that volley may need an adjustment, but there are 9,000 opinions on what should happen. Then the ball is rolling. Whats next. The next spell or RA that someone dislikes has a thread started so we can devolve it as well? Your last paragraph you mention that archers need to be included in the DAOC range framework. That may be the case, but "then" you could also make the case that GTAoEr's shouldnt be able to hit targets in an enclosed envrionment , like the lord room of a defended keep? Thats how this goes. One thing lead to another, and another, and as i stated in a previous thread, we can all carry sticks to the battlefield and hit each other with those. Same range mechanics, same damage table, same (insert next) and let ROG decide the outcome for us.

Volley wasn't there from the beginning, nor designed within DAOC's framework, as GTAE is. So it's illogical to attack GTAE. Which, by the way, is the point of these discussions--to tease out arguments that are logical vs ones that aren't. So I disagree with your "slippery slope" idea that it's somehow dangerous to nerf volley because it's unpopular, when the reasons for its nerf have nothing to do with its popularity.

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:25 PM
DAoC has always been rock/paper/scissors. I love plying my Zerk more than any class, but this patch level with custom changes without New RA charge basically makes me a stun-locked mezzed out knot on a log for an extended amount of time. I'm not calling for a stun nerf, or a mez nerf, or even a nerf between melee stuns and magical stuns (which are on a different timer). I'm not calling for a nerf between constant lock down mode on any of my melee classes. I adapt or i log. Those who havent been banned, or havent quit are doing the same. For the moment i would prefer reasonable conversations with legitimate ideas rather than just saying "swing the nerf hammer" (not suggesting thats what you're saying). Im just offering up the juice for the next round of , " ok you nerfed that..... Next....." :-)

Your zerk has stoicism + presumably det 9 (your choice), meaning you have the least CC duration in the game. What are you even talking about regarding being CC'd out? If this is happening to your zerker, do you think it might be happening to others even more so? In addition, zerkers have been given climbing walls, which is an advantage to where they were in classic. Your point is a red herring.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:11 PM by Sleepwell

Thats your perspective. Red herring? I didnt ask for climb. I'd gladly give up climbing a wall for NF charge which does meet the RA standards. I understand that this is a completely customized server and accept that though. If i choose to play.....

Melee stuns not affected by Det. Yes i pressume that others are affected by cc as much or more than my zerk. Thats why i see so many more sneaks now vs charge tanks for any realm.

Just like any custom change (the whole server for that matter). The question becomes is it worth it? I'm all for accepting the changes that you prescribe. I'm old and wise enough to not care anymore. Ill adapt, or move on :-). It is going to happen with each new change now though. You see the NF voters doing the same thing a month after they moved from NF to OF. I'm totally willing to accept those changes as long as the people who suggest them arent the ones in a month saying... "wtf happned? we lost another 20% of the population.. i just dont understand it...."

Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:15 PM by Isavyr

Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:50 PM
The current state of the game is attractive for archers. BG vs BG keep attack/defense allows non-melee archers to actually have something to do. Volley is part of that because it is just an attractive RA for the current state of the game. Quite frankly, non melee spec archers are not viable in any other situation. You take the ability to be viable in large scale keep attacks/defense and there is no reason to play one any longer.

It isn't one vs the other. Archers were useful in keep situations before volley. And they can continue to be so using volley, even with a shorter range.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 5:45 PM by Horus

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 4:15 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 1:50 PM
The current state of the game is attractive for archers. BG vs BG keep attack/defense allows non-melee archers to actually have something to do. Volley is part of that because it is just an attractive RA for the current state of the game. Quite frankly, non melee spec archers are not viable in any other situation. You take the ability to be viable in large scale keep attacks/defense and there is no reason to play one any longer.

It isn't one vs the other. Archers were useful in keep situations before volley. And they can continue to be so using volley, even with a shorter range.

I was just replying to the quote of why there are more archers playing now...

I would not necessarily be against a shorter range. Right now I can't volley rams on D2 or many places in the CY from inside the center keep because of the "too close" volley rules. Sure, shorten the range a bit. Then we can GA death on those attacking D2 from the safety of the inner keep. I'm sure no one would whine about that.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 8:25 PM by Jatar

Shields work just fine against volley in Thidranki. 50-60% block rate and 2-3 of 5 shots from every volley are blocked. 1 shot might hit the catapult and 1 usually misses. When we do hit a tank it's for 80 dmg and they laugh at us. Much of the time volley gets borked after the first or second shot and that's the only thing really broken with it.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:03 PM by bm01

That's odd. I block around 35% with 42+15 in shield and MoB3.

Wed 14 Aug 2019 10:27 PM by Jatar

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:03 PM
That's odd. I block around 35% with 42+15 in shield and MoB3.

That does seem odd. Now I wish I had taken some screenshots. We just switched targets and waited for reinforcements to rush him. Next time I will definitely get some screenshots!

I don't remember his name, but he was a big, smelly Mid!

Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:47 AM by Turano

Jatar wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 10:27 PM
I don't remember his name, but he was a big, smelly Mid!

That's definitely too vague, could be anyone there

Thu 15 Aug 2019 6:49 AM by Sepplord

heyheyhey...not everyone here is a big smelly....

we also have small smelliess

Sun 25 Aug 2019 4:45 PM by Jatar

bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:03 PM
That's odd. I block around 35% with 42+15 in shield and MoB3.

Here is a sample while I was ground assisting another scout in Thid.

66.39% is a warrior and 44.34% is a skald.

This scout is 24+6 bow, fully potted and temped.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 12:06 AM by Cadebrennus

Jatar wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 4:45 PM
bm01 wrote: ↑
Wed 14 Aug 2019 9:03 PM
That's odd. I block around 35% with 42+15 in shield and MoB3.

Here is a sample while I was ground assisting another scout in Thid.

66.39% is a warrior and 44.34% is a skald.

This scout is 24+6 bow, fully potted and temped.

Me on my 35 Shield Merc with a Small Shield after a Volley:
.

.
.
Volley is laughably easy to counter. Anyone who dies to Volley is either A) ungrouped and low on health already, B) fond of dancing in their underwear in open spaces, C) a moron.
.

Thu 29 Aug 2019 2:55 PM by bm01

Well it just means it works differently in Thid.
66% block rate pretty much gives away there's something strange going on.