Left Axe and Bludgeon - Phoenix Freeshard

Left axe has had a side stun for many years and sb have had bludgeon to make up for the fact that they can only go 1 weapon damage type. Is there any reason why it isn't like that on here? I just want an explanation that is all. Bludgeon is only 30 seconds and If I remember correct it is on a 5 minute timer. Meanwhile ns are running around with a damage boost against other sins 24/7.

Sun 4 Aug 2019 4:15 PM by Numatic

poppas pker wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Aug 2019 1:17 PM
Left axe has had a side stun for many years and sb have had bludgeon to make up for the fact that they can only go 1 weapon damage type. Is there any reason why it isn't like that on here? I just want an explanation that is all. Bludgeon is only 30 seconds and If I remember correct it is on a 5 minute timer. Meanwhile ns are running around with a damage boost against other sins 24/7.

I think the devs are worried about balance issues since many things associated with those changes on live do not exist here. There was a very large topic about SBs and having a crush based spec line a few months back and the devs were somewhat listening but not sure where it went. I would like to know if they are maybe testing something out with it at the least because its caused many SB players to quit.

Sun 4 Aug 2019 5:33 PM by poppas pker

Numatic wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Aug 2019 4:15 PM
poppas pker wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Aug 2019 1:17 PM
Left axe has had a side stun for many years and sb have had bludgeon to make up for the fact that they can only go 1 weapon damage type. Is there any reason why it isn't like that on here? I just want an explanation that is all. Bludgeon is only 30 seconds and If I remember correct it is on a 5 minute timer. Meanwhile ns are running around with a damage boost against other sins 24/7.

I think the devs are worried about balance issues since many things associated with those changes on live do not exist here. There was a very large topic about SBs and having a crush based spec line a few months back and the devs were somewhat listening but not sure where it went. I would like to know if they are maybe testing something out with it at the least because its caused many SB players to quit.

I think it would be something that will put sins somewhat along the same level with each other. Better than it is now and would also make a lot of sense really. I would like to hear from a dev here. It would be nice

Sun 4 Aug 2019 5:44 PM by arrowz

I agree. It would be a nice change and much needed too. Every other assassin is able to switch its weapon types making it more viable to fight different targets plus the fact that they get side stuns and we dont is horrible for us. Bludgeon should of been given to sbs to begin with. Ns get awesome damage tables and high dex/quick and Infs get extra spec points. 2 hander is a joke since combat speed here is really slow. Shadowblades deserve bludgeon. Not much to ask just a little tweak so we can be able to compete better.

Sun 4 Aug 2019 5:59 PM by florin

Look at who tops the rps for assassins and tell me again that sbs need a boost - some of them haven’t been on in months and still top the list

Sun 4 Aug 2019 6:02 PM by poppas pker

All of those players played this game A TON OF HOURS. You can sit there and die all day and still get rps. That doesn’t prove anything and makes no sense on this topic.

Sun 4 Aug 2019 6:10 PM by florin

You think they got all those solo kills by dieing?

Sun 4 Aug 2019 6:54 PM by poppas pker

All those sbs were here from the beginning. Most people not even temped and you can rack up tons of solo kills killing tons of casters with tons of play time. That doesn’t change anything. Ns have a massive advantage over sb and I feel it can be even out a bit by giving sb bludgeon. It’s a 30 second ability on a timer. Sbs aren’t just vulnerable to slash ns are resistant to slash and sb can ONLY go slash. It makes total sense

Sun 4 Aug 2019 7:10 PM by florin

There’s another 60 page thread about this they I’ll refer you to

Sun 4 Aug 2019 7:17 PM by Numatic

florin wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Aug 2019 6:10 PM
You think they got all those solo kills by dieing?

Noone said they cant get kills. It's more of a comparison against their counterparts. Anyone with enough dedication can top their respective charts. But if you took 2 equally skilled players of the same RR, out of all 3 assasins, SBs fall short because of being unable to spec favorabley against a specific type of target. With slash that's 4 targets. Druids which never happen because they are always grped, Heroes and wardens same thing, champions which are pretty much no-gos. That's it. They are the ONLY melee class in the game restricted to 1 melee type besides friar(and tbf they are a hybrid healer). Alot of fights are decided by RnG and not skill. So regardless, a low RR SB who is semi competent can still kill a blade shade if he gets a bunch of procs and the shade gets none, or 1-2.

But if you laid the entire fight out equally, the SB will lose every time. So any fight that a SB has that he lost out on slightly with RnG puts him even that much farther behind. I have had fights where I've left with 80% health against a NS, and vice versa. But on what felt like equal ground rng wise, I've almost always lost.

Basically, if NS can spec a weapon line to favorably kill assasins, why cant a SB? I would 100% be okay with celt NS if that happened. (For info I also have a RR5 NS)

Sun 4 Aug 2019 7:22 PM by poppas pker

florin wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Aug 2019 7:10 PM
There’s another 60 page thread about this they I’ll refer you to

Well if there is another 60 page thread it means maybe it should get looked at. I just want a dev to come in and give their two cents

Sun 4 Aug 2019 7:31 PM by florin

My take has always been to change the armor tables and make leather neutral like cloth.

Regarding the side stun- arguably it doesn’t belong to ns and rangers in this patch level and should be BM only. Same with the dual shadows bleed at 50 dw- mercs should have it and Infs at a lower dmg.

You could introduce legendaries for assassins only as another option.

IMO sbs are solid and ns are over tuned when fighting sbs. I don’t think that should result in adding bludgeon personally.

Sun 4 Aug 2019 8:50 PM by poppas pker

florin wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Aug 2019 7:31 PM
My take has always been to change the armor tables and make leather neutral like cloth.

Regarding the side stun- arguably it doesn’t belong to ns and rangers in this patch level and should be BM only. Same with the dual shadows bleed at 50 dw- mercs should have it and Infs at a lower dmg.

You could introduce legendaries for assassins only as another option.

IMO sbs are solid and ns are over tuned when fighting sbs. I don’t think that should result in adding bludgeon personally.

Those are all nice suggestions and they aren’t bad ideas but the truth is they aren’t happening and aren’t implemented at the moment. So at the moment it is in balanced and the upper hand the ns has is very clear. Bludgeon is an easy fix

Sun 4 Aug 2019 9:27 PM by arrowz

I mean us sb aren't asking for much just a simple bludgeon and the obvious side style which has been on live for years. Were not asking for a buff in anything. We just want to be able to compete on paper with other assassins and other classes thatd all.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 8:36 AM by Sepplord

afaik bludgeon came after legendary weapons, which made it much less of strong ability than it would be here
Simply having "on demand"-crush dmg without making sacrifices for it would be too strong compared to the downsides NS have when speccing blades.

That said, the current meta basically degrades assassins to fighting other assassins anyways. We don't have much use outside of that, and in THAT specific scenario NS are heavily advantaged.

I am an SB player and must say that i haven't logged in much at all in the last few weeks. Straight out losing to NS when all things are equal is one thing. Having almost no other options (besides ganking XPers/DarknessFalls) because of no-LOS guards and bringing nothing to a group or a siege simply doesn't appeal to me, now that the initial nostalgia-appeal is decreasing.

Not really sure how to "solve" that. Balancing the assassin matchup would help a little bit though i would prefer to have other gameplay options. Being able to pick fights doesn't help much when there are only very few fights that you would want to pick

Mon 5 Aug 2019 9:24 AM by Saroi

arrowz wrote: ↑
Sun 4 Aug 2019 9:27 PM
I mean us sb aren't asking for much just a simple bludgeon and the obvious side style which has been on live for years. Were not asking for a buff in anything. We just want to be able to compete on paper with other assassins and other classes thatd all.

Step 1: spec 50 LA
Step 2: Get axes. Triple Dot and also crafted 4.2 and 2.9 Main/Offhand when dots are on the enemy for the normal DD proc. Axes have an anytimer haste debuff and a strong 34% sidestyle haste debuff
Step 3: Get toughness 9
Step 4: Get damage add charge
Step 4: Open your fights with the anytimer haste debuff or on visible tanks with the sidestyle haste debuff, use damage add and don't use stun. Stun just means free purge for all your poisons and dots.
Step 5: Mop the floor with your enemies.

SB on paper are already very strong. SB have been dominating the rp's since very long. The problem is, too many SB's want to have this weird 5 spec and Sword(I mean yeah Sword look cooler than Axes, I like Sword more too but Axes are just the better weapons) just gimping themselves and not using all the tools they have, which makes them the strongest Assassin. There is no enemy you can't kill as a SB.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:59 AM by Freedomcall

Assassins are pretty well balanced atm.
Yes, NS has the advantage of dmg type.
But did you notice that 1. Celt NS isn't allowed here 2. Growth rate of Supernova chain(CD side chain) of NS is reduced compared to that of BM?
On the other hand, DW styles of infils and LW styles of SBs have the exact same growthrate with Mercs/Zerks.

If they introduce bludgeon, i'm pretty sure SBs will wreck all the stealthers around.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 4:21 PM by Cadebrennus

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 8:36 AM
afaik bludgeon came after legendary weapons, which made it much less of strong ability than it would be here
Simply having "on demand"-crush dmg without making sacrifices for it would be too strong compared to the downsides NS have when speccing blades.

That said, the current meta basically degrades assassins to fighting other assassins anyways. We don't have much use outside of that, and in THAT specific scenario NS are heavily advantaged.

I am an SB player and must say that i haven't logged in much at all in the last few weeks. Straight out losing to NS when all things are equal is one thing. Having almost no other options (besides ganking XPers/DarknessFalls) because of no-LOS guards and bringing nothing to a group or a siege simply doesn't appeal to me, now that the initial nostalgia-appeal is decreasing.

Not really sure how to "solve" that. Balancing the assassin matchup would help a little bit though i would prefer to have other gameplay options. Being able to pick fights doesn't help much when there are only very few fights that you would want to pick

To be honest I wish a lot more Assassin players would join in keep siege defense/offense. It would add another layer of complexity that I think is currently lacking in sieges due to a (mostly) missing class and role. I would even advocate for a 5 minute reuse on Vanish if it was tied to requiring your target dying before you could use it. This would make Vanish relevant to the Assassin's original intended role, you know, assassinating stuff.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 4:56 PM by Turano

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 4:21 PM
To be honest I wish a lot more Assassin players would join in keep siege defense/offense. It would add another layer of complexity that I think is currently lacking in sieges due to a (mostly) missing class and role. I would even advocate for a 5 minute reuse on Vanish if it was tied to requiring your target dying before you could use it. This would make Vanish relevant to the Assassin's original intended role, you know, assassinating stuff.

The problem is that the role of assas is for the most Part filled by the light tanks since they can climb walls. They deal more damage, can take more of a beating and are outside of keepfights just as usefull.
And solo without a group assas are pretty useless because the burst damage is so low that you can not kill grouped targets before they get healed or you get stunned to death.

But changing that just to give assas a role in sieges would be a whole new balancing problem

Mon 5 Aug 2019 5:14 PM by Cadebrennus

Turano wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 4:56 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 4:21 PM
To be honest I wish a lot more Assassin players would join in keep siege defense/offense. It would add another layer of complexity that I think is currently lacking in sieges due to a (mostly) missing class and role. I would even advocate for a 5 minute reuse on Vanish if it was tied to requiring your target dying before you could use it. This would make Vanish relevant to the Assassin's original intended role, you know, assassinating stuff.
The problem is that the role of assas is for the most Part filled by the light tanks since they can climb walls. They deal more damage, can take more of a beating and are outside of keepfights just as usefull.
And solo without a group assas are pretty useless because the burst damage is so low that you can not kill grouped targets before they get healed or you get stunned to death.

But changing that just to give assas a role in sieges would be a whole new balancing problem

The last big keep assault I was in I had a Minstrel and an Assassin assisting my Merc and it felt (anecdotal example sadly) more effective than a Minstrel and two Mercs, primarily because the Assassin would fulfill one of two roles: diseased/dotter to make healing much harder for the wall defenders, and to PA/CD targets that I had already softened seconds before, giving us the kill in situations where they otherwise would have escaped into their healing and PBAOE'ing buddies arms.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:24 PM by

gruenesschaf

Bludgeon will not come. A side stun and/or stun as a direct after evade seems almost reasonable though.

While I initially was in favor of making assassin vs assassin ignore the armor resists, running some automated tests have just shown that this basically turns the sb vs blade ns winrate around, bludgeon basically has the same effect. It might be worth it to see what happens when the armor vulnerability is reduced to 5%, the tests then have it rather close.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:42 PM by Mavella

As an SB would certainly appreciate access to an off evade stun(that's reasonably attainable without having to keep 35+ in a main weapon line IE beartooth, horizon blade, diamondback) and reduction of the leather bonus/penalty to +/- 5%.

It is refreshing to see this being looked at still. Thank you.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:44 PM by Numatic

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:24 PM
Bludgeon will not come. A side stun and/or stun as a direct after evade seems almost reasonable though.

While I initially was in favor of making assassin vs assassin ignore the armor resists, running some automated tests have just shown that this basically turns the sb vs blade ns winrate around, bludgeon basically has the same effect. It might be worth it to see what happens when the armor vulnerability is reduced to 5%, the tests then have it rather close.

That's surprising about removing armor resists considering the advantage a peirce NS has over blade regarding wpnsk. I think the only thing a SB has at that point is higher HP but at the cost of lower dex/qui. Was the tests really that disparaging?

I could sorta see the bludgeon issue but wouldn't that be a little more evened out if NS had a str based race like celt?

I appreciate the feedback on the issue regardless. Thanks.

Mon 5 Aug 2019 11:27 PM by Cadebrennus

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:24 PM
Bludgeon will not come. A side stun and/or stun as a direct after evade seems almost reasonable though.

While I initially was in favor of making assassin vs assassin ignore the armor resists, running some automated tests have just shown that this basically turns the sb vs blade ns winrate around, bludgeon basically has the same effect. It might be worth it to see what happens when the armor vulnerability is reduced to 5%, the tests then have it rather close.

I would be down with all Assassins being inherently neutral to all armor (no bonus no penalty) allowing them to do their jobs and ASSASSINATE things, especially without the massive amount of bitching in the Assassin threads.

That being said Assassin players tend to be the loudest and whiniest players in any game forum who think that they should insta-gib any class other than Assassins. Unfortunately on Live the whiniest/bitchiest/squeakiest wheels got the grease which helped turn Live into the bowtown bullshit that it is now. I'm still hopeful that you guys won't do the same here. Despite our differences in opinion regarding stealther (and specifically Archer) balance I think you guys are doing a good job overall.

Wed 7 Aug 2019 7:10 AM by Saroi

Numatic wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:44 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:24 PM
Bludgeon will not come. A side stun and/or stun as a direct after evade seems almost reasonable though.

While I initially was in favor of making assassin vs assassin ignore the armor resists, running some automated tests have just shown that this basically turns the sb vs blade ns winrate around, bludgeon basically has the same effect. It might be worth it to see what happens when the armor vulnerability is reduced to 5%, the tests then have it rather close.

That's surprising about removing armor resists considering the advantage a peirce NS has over blade regarding wpnsk. I think the only thing a SB has at that point is higher HP but at the cost of lower dex/qui. Was the tests really that disparaging?

I could sorta see the bludgeon issue but wouldn't that be a little more evened out if NS had a str based race like celt?

I appreciate the feedback on the issue regardless. Thanks.

SB do have way more advantages then just the HP.

Wed 7 Aug 2019 9:04 AM by Kemoauc

One of the main advantages is probably that the offhand always hits which makes applying poisons easier and the haste effect that comes with it might even be more powerful than the WS difference.

In general, changing all armor resists to +-5% is something that everyone would be happy with I imagine. The armor type has way too much influence on the outcome of any fight at the moment.

Wed 7 Aug 2019 10:05 AM by Numatic

Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
One of the main advantages is probably that the offhand always hits which makes applying poisons easier and the haste effect that comes with it might even be more powerful than the WS difference.

In general, changing all armor resists to +-5% is something that everyone would be happy with I imagine. The armor type has way too much influence on the outcome of any fight at the moment.

I can see the poison thing. But from what I remember mythic did extensive testing on LA and CD/DW and proved that due to lower dmg CD and LA were basically the same. Just how they got there used a different formula.

In a fight. (Against another assasin), the haste effect wouldn't even grant you a free swing by the end because they also get the haste effect when their OH swings. Infils for example can also spec much higher in DW and have comparatively the same spec in other lines as a SB. LA is the reason why SBs get such piddley spec points compared. And why they dont get good until much later RR. Whereas a rr3-4 NS or infil can compete much more effectively.

I'm not saying SB is gimp. But I have a much easier time on my Pierce spec NS fighting a SB than I have on my SB fighting a NS or slash infi.

Wed 7 Aug 2019 10:20 AM by Freedomcall

Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
One of the main advantages is probably that the offhand always hits which makes applying poisons easier and the haste effect that comes with it might even be more powerful than the WS difference.

In general, changing all armor resists to +-5% is something that everyone would be happy with I imagine. The armor type has way too much influence on the outcome of any fight at the moment.

I'm in favor of +-10% resists. 5% seems too low.
As a matter of fact, This is not a game only for stealthers or 1v1.
For example, I need to switch thrust/slash weapons when i play 8v8 on my Svg depend on my target.
Also I specced 2 dmg types for my Zerk in order to benefit from the resist table, abandoning parry.
Changing weapon type is one of the crucial skills, and i think 10% is worth for the ones who tries it imo.

Wed 7 Aug 2019 10:58 AM by Numatic

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Aug 2019 10:20 AM
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
One of the main advantages is probably that the offhand always hits which makes applying poisons easier and the haste effect that comes with it might even be more powerful than the WS difference.

In general, changing all armor resists to +-5% is something that everyone would be happy with I imagine. The armor type has way too much influence on the outcome of any fight at the moment.

I'm in favor of +-10% resists. 5% seems too low.
As a matter of fact, This is not a game only for stealthers or 1v1.
For example, I need to switch thrust/slash weapons when i play 8v8 on my Svg depend on my target.
Also I specced 2 dmg types for my Zerk in order to benefit from the resist table, abandoning parry.
Changing weapon type is one of the crucial skills, and i think 10% is worth for the ones who tries it imo.

I think the armor resist changes gruen mentioned were for assasin vs assasin only.

Wed 7 Aug 2019 11:41 AM by florin

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 8:36 AM
afaik bludgeon came after legendary weapons, which made it much less of strong ability than it would be here
Simply having "on demand"-crush dmg without making sacrifices for it would be too strong compared to the downsides NS have when speccing blades.

That said, the current meta basically degrades assassins to fighting other assassins anyways. We don't have much use outside of that, and in THAT specific scenario NS are heavily advantaged.

I am an SB player and must say that i haven't logged in much at all in the last few weeks. Straight out losing to NS when all things are equal is one thing. Having almost no other options (besides ganking XPers/DarknessFalls) because of no-LOS guards and bringing nothing to a group or a siege simply doesn't appeal to me, now that the initial nostalgia-appeal is decreasing.

Not really sure how to "solve" that. Balancing the assassin matchup would help a little bit though i would prefer to have other gameplay options. Being able to pick fights doesn't help much when there are only very few fights that you would want to pick

This might be your current meta but I see plenty of assassins attacking all sorts of targets. and should one target be too tough solo, pairing up seems to happen quite often as well - so what’s driving this narrative?

Wed 7 Aug 2019 3:35 PM by jelzinga_EU

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Aug 2019 10:24 PM
Bludgeon will not come. A side stun and/or stun as a direct after evade seems almost reasonable though.

While I initially was in favor of making assassin vs assassin ignore the armor resists, running some automated tests have just shown that this basically turns the sb vs blade ns winrate around, bludgeon basically has the same effect. It might be worth it to see what happens when the armor vulnerability is reduced to 5%, the tests then have it rather close.

Out of curiosity, and to get a better grasp of what you're doing. Am I correct in assuming you're taking a Monte-Carlo simulation approach on the various match-ups ?

If so, what is the current win/lose ratio for NS vs SB, assuming capped resists, sensible specs and such ?

Is your goal to approach a 50:50 by only reducing armour-tables for stealthers to (more) reasonable percentages?

Sun 11 Aug 2019 3:07 PM by Lillebror

Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 7 Aug 2019 9:04 AM
One of the main advantages is probably that the offhand always hits which makes applying poisons easier and the haste effect that comes with it might even be more powerful than the WS difference.

In general, changing all armor resists to +-5% is something that everyone would be happy with I imagine. The armor type has way too much influence on the outcome of any fight at the moment.

Think you got it all 100% correct!