Introducing the gvg-command

Started 22 Jul 2019
by Uthred
in Planned Changes
We have the keep task for zergs, we tried to help solos and small men with the bonus zones and are now working on an incentive for roaming with a full group. The end goal here would be for players, especially pug players, that prefer group combat to have a reason to try it and not just by default join the zerg because of the higher reward alone.

This will come in multiple smaller updates. The first one will introduce the concept of a group vs group mode that groups can toggle on and off as well as a way to list all groups who have toggled this mode on.

The commands for that are:
/gvg toggle: to flag your group as being interested in gvg fights
/gvg list: will only list full groups that have used /gvg toggle where every group member is 50, not near a tower / keep and in NF. The listing will include the zone they are in.

The next part of this incentive will include Tracking of fights between groups that have this mode toggled on as well as a way for group leaders to say they had an even fight against another group. Depending on how well this feature in general is received and how it is used, a later update will include a rp reward for everyone participating in even fights.

Please note that we are aware of the fact that this is a very controversial topic and that this command has the potential to be abused by some. Thats why we are introducing it without a reward for now. In general we want to monitor first if and how it is accepted througout the community before making it a permanent change.

If a group is flagged it is still allowed to add on its fight. This command is only meant to be a help in finding other groups who also want to roam as 8.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 4:55 PM by gotwqqd
I sense crash and burn
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:00 PM by Kaseylol
Awesome!!
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:13 PM by LedriTheThane
If groups enable this, please do not give them RP's if they kill soloers.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:14 PM by Loki
Now it's time for 8v8 champions to put their money where their mouth is. Full groups that enable the /gvg status should not receive rp rewards from ganking small man/soloers , mainly because the bonus will probably be sufficient and also because they will rage at anyone adding to them and ruining their score. Also as an option, outnumbering foes could reset their /gvg status for a noticeable period of time (2 hours or more). If you do not include this, then full groups get the best of both worlds. They get fair fights and a nice juicy bonus, then they get to "shit in people's mouths" like a solid member of the community put it.

All the 8v8 legends, you asked for it - here it is. Let's see if that's what you really wanted.

If you bring the argument of "if its red, its dead" than obviously you are against this /gvg command.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:30 PM by elninost0rm
Sounds like a great way for 16-man Voltron to find and kill every 8-man in their wake. As currently written, I believe such a setup would still be able to utilize the command.

Hard pass.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:38 PM by Svekt
This already has a massive potential to be abused. As stated, what is stopping a 16 man setup who is communicating in discord and not a BG from abusing this and farming 8mans? Hey to be fair here, I am all about promoting more 8v8 as it is my favorite play-style but there needs to be another way. This option sounds absolutely horrible and very quickly would be exploited. Even if you don't have a bonus for them active, you just essentially gave them radar for the groups that list themselves. Whats to stop a BG from going to the zone and killing an 8man after someone shares their location?
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:45 PM by gruenesschaf
What stopped zergs / bgs from going into the inofficial "8 man zone" on many servers? The other question is, why should those zergs / bgs go there? Here you actually have bonuses near keeps that you would lose out on if you go somewhere else.

This very first part, aka just the flagging and listing, basically just makes the communication between those groups to figure out where to go no longer needed.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:48 PM by Killaloth
Interesting stuff :]

Who enjoys keep fights won't be bothered by this change and who is more keen on 8vs8 should welcome it.

8 man can signal their presence without wasting time hitting towers, this should make the 8vs8 action a bit easier.

Definitely a step in the right direction.

The push being made to make this a great server to play on is impressive, nice one guys.

One more person here thankful for devs time and effort, keep it up!
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:54 PM by florin
I like to solo and to zerg - not much of an 8man player so this won't affect me. That being said - I think this is a good direction, thanks for changing your approach and leading with an RPS bonus OFF trial first before someone figures out how to abuse it like everything else. Hopefully whatever bonus is applied is only vs other 8man and not a bonus vs solos and small mans. - normal rps and participation are enough there.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:59 PM by florin
Svekt wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:38 PM
This already has a massive potential to be abused. As stated, what is stopping a 16 man setup who is communicating in discord and not a BG from abusing this and farming 8mans? Hey to be fair here, I am all about promoting more 8v8 as it is my favorite play-style but there needs to be another way. This option sounds absolutely horrible and very quickly would be exploited. Even if you don't have a bonus for them active, you just essentially gave them radar for the groups that list themselves. Whats to stop a BG from going to the zone and killing an 8man after someone shares their location?

BGs in general are slow and clumsy, some are with caster speed and afk/bio/alt tabbed folks - most don't typically go after fg what are very maneuverable and likely have sos (unless its someone we want to crush). Zergs like to go after zergs where the RPS are worth it.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 6:21 PM by keen
Uthred wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 4:25 PM
The commands for that are:
/gvg toggle: to flag your group as being interested in gvg fights
/gvg list: will only list full groups that have used /gvg toggle where every group member is 50, not near a tower / keep and in NF. The listing will include the zone they are in.
Can we have relic bonuses deactivated while /gvg is on? I think the majority of 8v8 grps would welcome this.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 6:39 PM by Prometheus
if this works out can we get a svs command (solo vs solo) this would be perfect for us soloers out there!
Mon 22 Jul 2019 6:40 PM by zarawer
Create an arena and e-sport the heck out of this!
Mon 22 Jul 2019 6:55 PM by Cash
I love the idea of incentivizing 8 man action. The top RR ppl on the server shouldn't be zerg players although making keep action worthwhile for those who don't want competitive play is good. I only worry that the ELITE high rr 8 mans will discourage pug 8s etc in this scenario. Is it possible to award the 8 that loses based on RR disparity, sort of like the task reward being greater for low rr
Mon 22 Jul 2019 8:17 PM by Killaloth
Some people would prefer to die 10 times in a row to an "elite" 8man grp and learn something than do zerg rps.

This change doesn't have an impact on players that like doing keep fights.

Remember that behind every release there is hard unpaid work of devs that love daoc.

Give this a try before sharing any constructive criticism
Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:26 PM by Cadebrennus
LedriTheThane wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:13 PM
If groups enable this, please do not give them RP's if they kill soloers.
.
.
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Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:29 PM by Cadebrennus
Killaloth wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 8:17 PM
Some people would prefer to die 10 times in a row to an "elite" 8man grp and learn something than do zerg rps.

This change doesn't have an impact on players that like doing keep fights.

Remember that behind every release there is hard unpaid work of devs that love daoc.

Give this a try before sharing any constructive criticism

I've died more times solo to 8mans than I have while in an 8man (non-zerg) myself. So what are your thoughts on how 8mans Vs smallman/solo should be handled? There shouldn't be any reward without any risk.
Mon 22 Jul 2019 10:47 PM by Killaloth
Cadebrennus wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:29 PM
Killaloth wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 8:17 PM
Some people would prefer to die 10 times in a row to an "elite" 8man grp and learn something than do zerg rps.

This change doesn't have an impact on players that like doing keep fights.

Remember that behind every release there is hard unpaid work of devs that love daoc.

Give this a try before sharing any constructive criticism

I've died more times solo to 8mans than I have while in an 8man (non-zerg) myself. So what are your thoughts on how 8mans Vs smallman/solo should be handled? There shouldn't be any reward without any risk.

I was more worried about transfer times to get back into action after /rel, boats are quick now and moving from A to B is as quick as old frontiers. It's annoying when teleports are broken though.

I don't get upset if I rel to zerg, it's not my mistake. I get pissed when I do something wrong.

Winning a few Vs many fight is lots of fun, winning many Vs few is not. They don't experience the Wohooooo moment but you do

Let the less Wohooooo players do what they want and let's enjoy our Master Ganked title
Mon 22 Jul 2019 11:40 PM by Jabstar
If there was ever a poll i missed it, and i'd have voted against this, even if i enjoyed 8v8 alot when i played. I think this will create more division. the hardcore 8v8 groups might have a good time though!

ps: this is my opinion and is therefor subjective. I'm sure the dev's did their homework and are confident this measure will ensure the continued healthy life of the server.

edit: can the people that are absolutely for this thumbs Uthred's initial post? just to get abit of feel? at the moment it has only 3 ups.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 12:09 AM by Freedomcall
Solos are not having any incentives atm.
Take a look at mazes.
I've been to maze of each realm couple of times,
but only saw one person visiting there for speed(and he just left right away) and one person actually trying to find a fight.
It's just empty and no one goes there.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 12:15 AM by Freedomcall
LedriTheThane wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:13 PM
If groups enable this, please do not give them RP's if they kill soloers.

Then do not give smallmen rps if they kill soloers too.
What is the difference between smallmen and 8man as a solo anyway?
1v2 is a fight at least you can manage to kill one and die if you are lucky, but 1v3? its just a joke.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 12:39 AM by leb
wonderfull, since the small dicks went to alb for the zerg and fot the relics or something else this last days, alb is even more overpopulated than mids,
rvr on hib is now just a old memory. And in the same time you are adding the possibility for 8vs8 , I hope the /gvg will be a joke like the solo and smallmen area....
Tue 23 Jul 2019 12:50 AM by Kwall0311
Please put more effort into the solo/small man zones that you mentioned. It was a failure. Utilize that nice area in the center of EV. Equidistant for all realms, and port out groups like the portal keeps did during an active relic movement.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 1:41 AM by Jingo NZ
Interesting idea for 8v8.

Here is a way that the reward could be implemented:

    8v8 toggle requires 60 seconds of out of combat to complete the switch on/off (similar to /quit)

    RP tick credit is earned if two toggled 8v8 teams engage each other
    RP value of the tick is based on the combined RR of the team you engaged
    Your group doesn't give out tick credit unless you've been out of combat for 60 seconds since your last 8v8 engagement
    Tick credit keeps track of group members you've fought, with diminishing returns for multiple engagements within the tick period where any of the group members are the same

    -50% normal kill rp if both don't have 8v8 toggle
    No normal RVR task participation credit if both don't have 8v8 toggle

    Register of clean 8v8 wins similar to how solo kills are calculated and then shown on the Herald
Tue 23 Jul 2019 2:26 AM by tomhardly
LedriTheThane wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:13 PM
If groups enable this, please do not give them RP's if they kill soloers.

+1
Tue 23 Jul 2019 2:36 AM by Prometheus
Jingo NZ wrote:
Tue 23 Jul 2019 1:41 AM
Interesting idea for 8v8.

Here is a way that the reward could be implemented:

    8v8 toggle requires 60 seconds of out of combat to complete the switch on/off (similar to /quit)

    RP tick credit is earned if two toggled 8v8 teams engage each other
    RP value of the tick is based on the combined RR of the team you engaged
    Your group doesn't give out tick credit unless you've been out of combat for 60 seconds since your last 8v8 engagement
    Tick credit keeps track of group members you've fought, with diminishing returns for multiple engagements within the tick period where any of the group members are the same

    -50% normal kill rp if both don't have 8v8 toggle
    No normal RVR task participation credit if both don't have 8v8 toggle

    Register of clean 8v8 wins similar to how solo kills are calculated and then shown on the Herald

Interesting idea but the 50% of normal rp and no normal rvr task participation would quickly be frowned upon as it's punishing everyone from playing how we've always played.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 2:55 AM by LedriTheThane
Freedomcall wrote:
Tue 23 Jul 2019 12:15 AM
LedriTheThane wrote:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 5:13 PM
If groups enable this, please do not give them RP's if they kill soloers.

Then do not give smallmen rps if they kill soloers too.
What is the difference between smallmen and 8man as a solo anyway?
1v2 is a fight at least you can manage to kill one and die if you are lucky, but 1v3? its just a joke.

they said it would only exist for 8 man's, plus 3v1 can actually be done but it's rare.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 4:23 AM by Jingo NZ
Prometheus wrote:
Tue 23 Jul 2019 2:36 AM
Jingo NZ wrote:
Tue 23 Jul 2019 1:41 AM
Interesting idea for 8v8.

Here is a way that the reward could be implemented:

    8v8 toggle requires 60 seconds of out of combat to complete the switch on/off (similar to /quit)

    RP tick credit is earned if two toggled 8v8 teams engage each other
    RP value of the tick is based on the combined RR of the team you engaged
    Your group doesn't give out tick credit unless you've been out of combat for 60 seconds since your last 8v8 engagement
    Tick credit keeps track of group members you've fought, with diminishing returns for multiple engagements within the tick period where any of the group members are the same

    -50% normal kill rp if both don't have 8v8 toggle
    No normal RVR task participation credit if both don't have 8v8 toggle

    Register of clean 8v8 wins similar to how solo kills are calculated and then shown on the Herald

Interesting idea but the 50% of normal rp and no normal rvr task participation would quickly be frowned upon as it's punishing everyone from playing how we've always played.
I mean -50% rp and no task participation if only one side has the 8v8 toggle.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 4:54 AM by Vkejai
Whatever you implement for 8mans it will never be enough, surely you know that.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 5:44 AM by gotwqqd
Why do 8v8 need to be spoon fed?
They should have to find those types of encounters
Tue 23 Jul 2019 7:52 AM by obsideus
I can see this going down well.
Tue 23 Jul 2019 8:19 AM by Killaloth
gotwqqd wrote:
Tue 23 Jul 2019 5:44 AM
Why do 8v8 need to be spoon fed?
They should have to find those types of encounters

What is your play style? How this change affects your play style?

I play solo/smallman mainly. When changes where introduced to give more rps to keep taking zerg I didn't care much as it didn't affect me.

Does helping 8mans to find a fight on a big map affect you? How?

Also, what is the part of your feedback that can be used to further improve things?

Thank you!
Tue 23 Jul 2019 8:21 AM by Ceen
gotwqqd wrote:
Tue 23 Jul 2019 5:44 AM
Why do 8v8 need to be spoon fed?
They should have to find those types of encounters
Ok let's also remove fire on towers/keeps.
Why do zerglings need to be spoon fed?
They should have to find those types of encounters
Tue 23 Jul 2019 9:10 AM by Aph
With this tool I feel like the devs are actually encouraging 8mans setting up fights. I guess most already did this for a while now so I can't see this changing the gameplay radically. Maybe time will proove me wrong I like the idea that it tells the zone and not putting hammers on the map or something like that. This way the element of surprise is still in play and its not an arena feeling. I know that alot of solo players are going to want the 8mans only to get rps from other 8mans, but I would hate to see this becomming more and more an arena type game only. DAoC rvr is its own weird size and too much regulation and barriers will ruin the feeling I fear. Not all 8mans want to fight the same high rr group over and over again in a closed environment - at least not for hours on end.

A minor notice:
After we tried it out yesterday I can say that groups taking boats should not be listed in EV. I dont know how you can fix this but it forces us to keep hitting that /gvg list button to see if they are actually in EV or just on a boat.
Wed 24 Jul 2019 12:17 PM by Strikejk
Now that all anti-zerg mechanics and all mechanics for good groups and good leading are being reduced to literal jokes can we please have a /zvz toggle command for zergs?
This makes it easier to build up even bigger mindless zergs and find other huge mindless zergs to fight against. Sadly BG's are not up to the task for various reasons.
Soon there will be no need for proper leaders so the upcomming mindless zerg leaders who probably can't even look at a map need an easy way to find other mindless zergs. Also the mindless zerg players need an easy way to find and join the mindless zerg.
This is why we should have a /zvz toggle command.
Also a command to automatically join the biggest zerg currenty active on your realm: /zvz join
Furthermore I would like the following commands:
A command to instantly teleport to your mindless zerg: /zvz teleport
A command to see the biggest zergs on the map: /zvz map

Thanks!
Thu 25 Jul 2019 6:45 AM by Druth
Seems like a change that affects others very little (if any), while making it easier for groups to find fights.

No idea why people get this upset. Would a different story if this gave them some sort of immunity from zergs, or adds.
Maybe it will get some players back who mainly wants 8v8 fights, and more people = more people.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 11:34 AM by Aph
Strikejk wrote:
Wed 24 Jul 2019 12:17 PM
Now that all anti-zerg mechanics and all mechanics for good groups and good leading are being reduced to literal jokes can we please have a /zvz toggle command for zergs?
This makes it easier to build up even bigger mindless zergs and find other huge mindless zergs to fight against. Sadly BG's are not up to the task for various reasons.
Soon there will be no need for proper leaders so the upcomming mindless zerg leaders who probably can't even look at a map need an easy way to find other mindless zergs. Also the mindless zerg players need an easy way to find and join the mindless zerg.
This is why we should have a /zvz toggle command.
Also a command to automatically join the biggest zerg currenty active on your realm: /zvz join
Furthermore I would like the following commands:
A command to instantly teleport to your mindless zerg: /zvz teleport
A command to see the biggest zergs on the map: /zvz map

Thanks!

ehhh.... This is a command that lists an 8man group in a zone if the group leader toggles it on. Only then can you check the list for other 8mans that did the same. First off; the zones are big enough for the groups never to find eachother even when listed in the system and checking frequently. Secondly; I have not seen more than 5-6 groups using this at the same time ever. So this is a very minor add-on, QoL or whatever u wanna call it. So far I would state that it probably didn't affect rvr at all yet and might not even in the future.

Theres no reason to get all rowdy. Nothing is changed. If anything was to be mentioned it would be that the devs might try to stop 8mans to set up fights on discord and instead use their system - I doubt that will happen though.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 11:43 AM by Caemma
Druth wrote:
Thu 25 Jul 2019 6:45 AM
Seems like a change that affects others very little (if any), while making it easier for groups to find fights.

No idea why people get this upset. Would a different story if this gave them some sort of immunity from zergs, or adds.
Maybe it will get some players back who mainly wants 8v8 fights, and more people = more people.
Because most of people on the forum only complains without giving a proper (aka neutral) feedback.
Just take note on what the guy before you posted, he think he's a cool bro trying to joke about this command, but he has no clue on the reasons this command got implemented, and the struggle people that likes another playstyle face (in this particular case 8man).

This command is just a little helper that will avoid people to constantly set up fights over Discord, so it actually doesn't change the situation by a lot, but it certainly makes it more accessible to all, which in general is a good thing when there is lack of partecipants on such activity.

SideNote: This server already gives lots of rps for almost everything you do in RvR, even if you just stick AFK a zerg doing nothing, so I don't really see why there is so much hate/fear of giving an incentive to who likes even fights.

2nd SideNote: RPs income shouldn't be always the carrot to attract more people to an activity, sometimes the issue is more related to the feasibility.
For example, speaking of the rotating Solo/SmallMan Area: getting zerged/ganked constantly while trying to reach the designated zone is the culprit of its failure, since solos/smallman will eventually give up.

Anyway, good luck!
Thu 25 Jul 2019 2:31 PM by chryso
It is not a zerg. I am just running with my posse.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 3:54 PM by Azuell
Could this be implemented for different group sizes? The solo/small man zones didn't work so why not try adding this for them? Make one for solos, one for 2-4, 5-7, and 8. You can only see groups in your range.
Fri 26 Jul 2019 7:05 PM by Killaloth
Tried yesterday, /gvg worked fine. Teleport back to EV in 3-4 random points would be nice too as caster grps are at disadvantage if attacked straight away in the small alley where the respawn is.

Yes it would be nice to see /3vs3 or /4vs4 or /5vs5 too. No damage to anyone as these smallman would not engage in keepzerg anyway.

Also an hastener in EV would be nice.

Thanks again for implementing the /gvg command :>
Sat 27 Jul 2019 8:20 PM by chewchew
Nice command.
One suggestion from my side is not displaying all group-members in '/gvg list', but only the group leader.
So the enemy groups wont see the setup you are running right away. Especially with 'unusual' setups this sometimes can ensure at least one win in the first fight by moment of suprise!
Tue 24 Sep 2019 9:54 AM by Caemma
Killaloth wrote:
Fri 26 Jul 2019 7:05 PM
Tried yesterday, /gvg worked fine. Teleport back to EV in 3-4 random points would be nice too as caster grps are at disadvantage if attacked straight away in the small alley where the respawn is.

Yes it would be nice to see /3vs3 or /4vs4 or /5vs5 too. No damage to anyone as these smallman would not engage in keepzerg anyway.

Also an hastener in EV would be nice.

Thanks again for implementing the /gvg command :>
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