The sorry state of Assassins on Phoenix

Started 17 Jul 2019
by Gorgoroth
in RvR
Hello there,

i will start this with the disclaimer, that this should NOT become a whiny threat and should also stay unrelated to "skill" level and "git gud or uninstall" way of thinking.

The purpose of this discussion is to highlight issues the Assassin state of the game currently has - as objective as possible. If there are ways to improve them, I will leave it to the devs and server owners to see if they see a need to address those problems.

And lastly, all of this is my opinion of course, and while you are free to disagree (and I even encourage you doing so, if you are objective and factual) I kindly ask you to see those points ALSO from an assassins player point of view.

1. Assassins are very weak on Phoenix. There are classes which are extremely hard to kill (if not impossible to kill), which contributes to the Stealth Zerg problem. Why? If you have to be really good, with a max template, and still are more likely to get rolled in a very open Frontier without many Choke points, you are much more likely to group up, which makes Solo play unrewarding and perpetuates the negative image, the stealth Zerg casts on assassins in general.

2. The role of an assassin was traditionally very flexible. Kill off stragglers trying to reach the Zerg, kill off poorly positioned players in Keep attacks or defenses, kill clothies out of a group (if you are lucky) before healers can react, fight other stealthers and so on. That’s really fun to do. Problem is currently, that most Assassin players are unable to do most on this list. Goupbuffs greatly outweigh buffpots and hence overpower the surprise advantage of a PA in most situations, so that healers will most of the time react in time to save the clothie. SO Assassins are limited to fight low RR whatever, camp docks and ship arrival points and Stealth zerg. They are just to weak currently to do most of the things an assassin is supposed to do effectively.

3. Camping Bridges: Since everyone has per default a max speed "water swim speed buff" enabled, why would "good targets" for assassins cross bridges - if they are bright enough, they will not cross them and swim alongside of them. SO rendering them kinda useless.

4. Imbalance vs other Assassins. So my honest opinion about this is, that NS are the strongest Assassin on Phoenix, thanks to their Leather+ damage type. SB and Infi are pretty much equal, though I think SB is stronger (but I am biased here due to my personal experience). This makes fights (sometimes even for me) but certainly for others, especially low RR players) like rolling the dice on who wins. Skill is not often the determining factor on who wins or not, but damage types and resis. For example: I myself lost to a RR7 or RR8 NS after I landed the full PA chain and both of us used purge, while I was specced 50 CS, RR6 with an all max template and good choice or RAs and having reapplied ALL poisons after purge. How is that for balance? Can we please consider again the implementation of Legendary weapons?


I can list much more, but that would reduce the likelihood of someone reading till the end. Last thing I will mention though, that the Evade rate was also reduced recently, reducing our Assassin damage even more.

Whilst I can understand that players who don’t play assassins and/or don’t like them are likely to be happy about those points I mentioned (if they agree that they are a correct reflection of the reality on phoenix), I kindly ask you to imagine, that your favorite class suddenly becomes gimp and how you would feel about this - preferably before commenting

Thank you for your time.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 10:58 AM by Sepplord
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:55 AM
1. Assassins are very weak on Phoenix. There are classes which are extremely hard to kill (if not impossible to kill), which contributes to the Stealth Zerg problem. Why? If you have to be really good, with a max template, and still are more likely to get rolled in a very open Frontier without many Choke points, you are much more likely to group up, which makes Solo play unrewarding and perpetuates the negative image, the stealth Zerg casts on assassins in general.

I get what you mean, but i believe many will read this, think: he wants to be able to 1vs1 every char, get lost...and not read the rest.



I very much agree on the problem of attacking someone in a group or a zerg. Due to the buffdiscrepancy it is a coinflip wether the person is actually grouped or not.
And it gets even worse when we look at the primary battle places in NF...keeps and towers.

Not only do guards shoot through walls and run faster than i sprint, they also ADD through walls without LOS. There is no spot in a keep where i could ambush an enemy that carelessly runs around. And when i get an archer add i can't LOS them and kill them. I need to go to the archers...which means the next archers on the wall also adds etc... And i am not even sure it will be something that they can fix or are working on currently.
What do i have climb walls for if climbing walls is a suicide mission?
Wed 17 Jul 2019 5:39 PM by Druth
Problem is you have stealth with very few counters, not really sure how to be more precise than that.

I can chase a stealther, be in 300 range, have him stealth (and likely change direction), me pop SL pot, and still not find him unless I run in the exact direction he ran in when he stealthed.
Add to this vanish which is even harder to see through.

It's not that I think I should be able to find them. But if I have such a small chance to find a stealther that stealthed within 500 range of me WITH SL pot popped, then they also should have very little chance chance against me.


And the "force stealthers to group" I don't buy, they'll group no matter what, because winning is fun.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 5:58 PM by Loki
tl;dr biased thane wants to see stealthers better to stun lock them
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:05 PM by Druth
Loki wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 5:58 PM
tl;dr biased thane wants to see stealthers better to stun lock them

Cool story, was vanish down?

I want risk and reward to go hand in hand.

I risk by being visible with no speed, to get a strong solo char.
Assassins has harder fights, but get invisibility.

I think the trade off is quite fair, especially considering that stealthers hover around 20-25% of the frontier pop, and the 3 assassin classes seem to have a consistently high active pop. And currently all 3 are played more than thanes.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:45 PM by Nildain
I sympathize with frustration a solo stealther might feel with regard to not being able to find fair fights, but I don't think they really even flinch when they themselves are on the giving end of unfair fights all of the time. So I guess what I really mean to say is if you're an assassin who never adds and only ever plays solo I can understand being frustrated.

As a person who plays a non-speed visible solo I can understand how much it sucks to get ganked. I basically don't find 1v1s, and have to settle for trying to win 1v2s or worse odds with all of my RAs up, or at least to get a kill before the fight ends. Stealth and vanish is the tradeoff. It'd feel even shittier than it already does to visible soloers if we were so easy to kill in a 1v1 from an assassin when 80%+ of the time a stealther jumps me there are at 2 or more of them.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:26 PM by Kemoauc
Not quite sure why you'd think assassins are weak.

Not quite sure I understand why it should be a problem that assassins can't win against every single class in the game and even kill people out of groups.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:28 PM by Campjr
None of you even address the issue the topic is about. This has nothing to do with adds or how hard it is as a solo tanker, etc. Its about the lack of power an assassin really has on this server. The current state of assassins has bacsically made the class only viable against each other. C

Just about can’t touch any R5 tank even with full PA chain and poisons. All the casters that run solo are virtually untargetable (Sm,BD, Necro). Traditional cloth wearers are very very rarely running solo.

R6+ Rangers, Hunters, Scouts, Minstrels are very tough fights when goodies are up. But that is far more often than you think.

With that being said the only game assassins really are on somewhat of an equal field is other Assassins and even then that’s not equal. Current state has it close to NS>Inf=SB. Could make the argument that Inf is better at low RR while SB is better at high. Give them a R5/6 average and they are about equal with Nightshades taking the cake.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:33 PM by Campjr
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:26 PM
Not quite sure why you'd think assassins are weak.

Not quite sure I understand why it should be a problem that assassins can't win against every single class in the game and even kill people out of groups.

I challenge those of you with the challenging argument to list the classes an assassin can/can’t beat and who you think they should/shouldn’t beat.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:53 PM by Kemoauc
Pretty much every melee loses 1vs1 against the casters you listed - not an assassin problem but a problem of certain classes being unbeatable with physical damage. Every other caster is food for an assassin though.

Against most of the melee classes you will have a fighting chance even now. I probably play one of the strongest melee 1vs1 classes and I still struggle against well played assassins. I might come out with a positive win rate but I think that's fair given that I can't chose my fights, pretty much every single caster in this game if played well owns me and given that every fight I'd likely win might not happen because the opponent can just run away from me.

Play some other class that has no stealth as a solo and you will get to know really quick that there are a lot of balance issues with regards to 1vs1 and that assassins come out pretty well overall.

The server is already pretty heavy on stealthers. I don't think it's a good idea to make them even more powerful...
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:59 PM by Loki
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:05 PM
Cool story, was vanish down?

So OT shows some interesting issues and your response is that ... stealth is really good ? That Potion of Lucidity doesn't help when stealthers run in a different direction ? That Vanish is really good ? That doesn't say anything about the class, says a lot about you though. I play a Thane too, rr5 and haven't grouped or joined the zerg BG unlike you. Reading about you failing to find stealthers is H I L A R I O U S ! I find them all the time ... And with a straight face you'll tell me you are a non-speed visible ? You have neutral hasteners all over NF , what more do you want , to have speed of the realm on your quickbar ? Sure, you'll say it doesn't help outrunning full groups, but for the run to bled bridge, docks and back that you do, you don't need speed 6. Besides, the point is speed of the realm is enough to find a stealther if you run through him and see him. For further advices, find an average Thane and he'll explain.

As for the vanish below the belt attempt, I would assume you're mature enough to understand there's 2 sides, if not more, to every story. Obviously, since I saw you talk about family and kids, I imagined you would understand that. But I was wrong. Since I don't have time to waste with immature attempts at replies, Imma add you to that sweet sweet foe list I just discovered.

Oh for the future, when you take money out of guild vaults to be the guild crafter, make sure you log in once in a while to help with guild templates so I dont have to do that for you, while you're here spewing bullshit like the forum warrior you are. Got that , sport ? Adios !
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:01 PM by Campjr
Kemy, you are comparing how hard solo game is as a toon that the game dynamics didn’t design to be played that way. You aren’t going to get the jump on anyone, so of course anyone with a brain will take their opening how they want it.

I challenged you who you thought they could kill and who you think they should kill. Just because the top 5% of the assassin community can give you a run doesn’t mean the breakdown checks out legitimate. Your top5% in the assassin community likely has over 120p into template alone just to have a chance of giving you a good fight. Let alone having to probably poison and repoison you 12-15 different poisons and open with PA. The stars have to align and you have to have the RNG gods on your side as an assassin. Oh and then cross your fingers no critical poisons get resisted.

I’m just saying that if the goal for an “assassin” was to fight other assassins to stand a chance 90% of his fights, then its setup perfect. Not to mention the nerf we just received undocumented. We certainly didn’t need that....

If the goal is to actually be able to be an actual “assassin” some adjustments need to be made.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:18 PM by Kemoauc
In my opinion, the option to be able to jump everyone requires that you can't win against everyone in a fight. You trade in some fighting power for stealth and you can still choose not to attack at all.

What's the alternative you're proposing? Everyone that you jump is basically dead? What happens to these 5% of assassins that are using their class to the fullest and already strong if you buff assassins as a whole?
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:23 PM by Saroi
I have to say I didn't have much problems, especially with my SB. But that was more of a specc thing. I said it multiple times and I will say it again. LA > CS

You are talking about being 50 CS and getting also PA chain on a NS. Well, PA gives you no big advantage on this server, especially vs. Tanks. PA damage is not high on this server and more and more people are catching up to the Abla charge. With my NS I PA'd a few SB's over the weekend and did like 450, max 500 damage. Taking 150 damage of from Abla, you have like 300-350 damage. If the target is a chain wearer, PA does a lot less damage. Maybe like 350? Taking Abla again, the damage is 200.

WS/Con debuff reduces health around 330. So basically your PA gets fully neglected from your debuff. The only thing you have is maybe 50 damage bonus, because your PA destroys the Abla, while the enemy Assassin will hit you for like 100-130 damage from his style, unless he tried to PA too and only does unstyled it will be less. Always depends if he has a quick or slow weapon as opener. So basically vs. other Assassin, even if you land PA you are practically both at the same health at this moment. And if he purges CD you will have to reapply poison, giving him even an advantage for a short moment.

As for fighting tanks or melees in general, I can only give you the advice to have 39 axe and open with the 34% haste debuff. You can ask Kemy here how annoying that is. It helps a lot vs. BM/Merc or 2h Tanks. Get damage add charge on for a huge damage boost and you are pretty much good to go.

Sure, you will never win every fight because there is too much random going on and I feel lately it is getting worse.

I don't see a class that is really unbeatable as a SB. Especially since you don't have to fight a stupid class like SM.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:26 PM by Turano
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:18 PM
In my opinion, the option to be able to jump everyone requires that you can't win against everyone in a fight. You trade in some fighting power for stealth and you can still choose not to attack at all.

What's the alternative you're proposing? Everyone that you jump is basically dead? What happens to these 5% of assassins that are using their class to the fullest and already strong if you buff assassins as a whole?
I guess the problem is what is the point in being able to choose your fights when you can't win them anyways?
Visible soloers are running around hoping to get jumped by assas, and if that isn't weird I don't know what is.

But that has always been a balance problem and an endless discussion since daoc released.
"Assassins shouldn't be able to kill this"
"Assassins should always loose to that"
"It's your own fault to attack that class"

This was never addressed anywhere, Assas have always been the weakest pure meele class and the reasoning has always been stealth
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:39 PM by Campjr
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:18 PM
In my opinion, the option to be able to jump everyone requires that you can't win against everyone in a fight. You trade in some fighting power for stealth and you can still choose not to attack at all.

What's the alternative you're proposing? Everyone that you jump is basically dead? What happens to these 5% of assassins that are using their class to the fullest and already strong if you buff assassins as a whole?

Just so Im clear so we can continue the debate, you believe that there are SOME classes or 80% of classes that should be able to beat an assassin givenm a PA chain has been landed?

Heres a list of what we can kill realistically, any other assassins feel free to chime in;

Mid- 3 out of 11 you can reliably kill
Healer- Sure but Pita, run out of endo, likely to be insta CC and left to die
Shaman- Sure, but shamans pbae disease between pa/cd and its enough to allow them to get away. Killable if stun lands
Skald-Ooof, can be done but always come down to the wire. RR6+ you start to avoid
Thane- Nope
Savage- Yea
Zerker- Nope
Warr- You wont kill before you get zerged. Can go 50/50 if the 2 minute fight doesnt get run over
RM-yea
BD-Sometimes depending on spec and poisons. High CS and lead with enerv/disease. Any resists and you die
SM- LOL NOPE
SB-Yea
Hunter-You wont kill before you get zerged. Can go 50/50 if the 2 minute fight doesnt get run over. Fairly easy kill if no toys up(Rare)

Alb- 4 out of 12
Cleric- Sure but Pita, run out of endo, likely to be left to die
Friar-Nope
Minstrel-Sure but Pita, run out of endo, likely to be insta CC and left to die. 50/50 fight if it actually goes the distance
Reaver-Nope
Merc-Nope
Arms-You wont kill before you get zerged. Can go 50/50 if the 2 minute fight doesnt get run over
Pally- You wont kill before you get zerged. Can win if the 2 minute fight doesnt get run over.
Necro-Nope
Sorc-Yea
Cab-yea
Theurg-Yea
Inf-Yea
Scout-You wont kill before you get zerged. Can win if the 2 minute fight doesnt get run over. Fairly easy kill if no toys up(Rare)

Hib- 1 to 3 reliable kills out of 13
Druid- See Cleric and Healer
Bard- Sure but Pita, run out of endo, likely to be insta CC and left to die
Warden-You wont kill before you get zerged. Can win if the 2 minute fight doesnt get run over. Fairly easy kill if no toys up(Rare)
Champ- Nope
VW- Ehhh no against good ones. Sometimes against bad ones.
BM- Nope
Hero- Nope
Eld- Yea but qc stun or mez is rough
Chanter- See eld
Animist- yes if no shrooms up
Ment- See eld/chanter
NS- Toughest Assassin right now
Ranger- LOL R6+ extremely difficult. Win maybe 15-20%


Keep in mind that any missed PA or resisted enerv poisoning, every tank/hybrid above should win.


Like I said, Im not even making the point that they should get a buff or not. Just stating how the current Assassin is played and if this above is the intent, then its working as intended.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:02 PM by Druth
Loki wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:59 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:05 PM
Cool story, was vanish down?

So OT shows some interesting issues and your response is that ... stealth is really good ? That Potion of Lucidity doesn't help when stealthers run in a different direction ? That Vanish is really good ? That doesn't say anything about the class, says a lot about you though. I play a Thane too, rr5 and haven't grouped or joined the zerg BG unlike you. Reading about you failing to find stealthers is H I L A R I O U S ! I find them all the time ... And with a straight face you'll tell me you are a non-speed visible ? You have neutral hasteners all over NF , what more do you want , to have speed of the realm on your quickbar ? Sure, you'll say it doesn't help outrunning full groups, but for the run to bled bridge, docks and back that you do, you don't need speed 6. Besides, the point is speed of the realm is enough to find a stealther if you run through him and see him. For further advices, find an average Thane and he'll explain.

As for the vanish below the belt attempt, I would assume you're mature enough to understand there's 2 sides, if not more, to every story. Obviously, since I saw you talk about family and kids, I imagined you would understand that. But I was wrong. Since I don't have time to waste with immature attempts at replies, Imma add you to that sweet sweet foe list I just discovered.

Oh for the future, when you take money out of guild vaults to be the guild crafter, make sure you log in once in a while to help with guild templates so I dont have to do that for you, while you're here spewing bullshit like the forum warrior you are. Got that , sport ? Adios !

Great... I have the wrath of someone mistaking me for someone else.
I'm not an officer, or have any rights to withdraw funds, in any guild. So you've mistaken me for someone else. My crafter is even selfmade here, and never received funds from the guild.
So lets stop pretending you know my name or how I play, okay?

But that is besides the point.

Yes, stealth has everything to do with it. The choice and ability to avoid fights is huge, it's why so many are drawn to stealthers.
The misconception is that stealthers somehow should be better, or as good, at 1v1 as classes that don't get to pick their fights.
If they are as good or better, why play anything but stealth or in groups?
Stealth is why assassins are, and always should be, the weakest melee class in the game.

I am glad you find stealthers. And so do I, but it seems my SL pots don't work as well as yours or you fight worse stealthers. Because the ones I fight change direction when they stealth, and unless I pick the right direction, they are gone.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:33 PM by Anelyn77
No offense meant to anyone, but this is a thread about the state of Assassins on Phoenix and not how good thanes or other visibles that can't pick their fights are vs sins or why you can or can't find a stealther if he vanishes.

To be constructive to the thread myself, would it be hard to make Perf / Backstab (I and II) completely ignore Ablative charge (to not simply destroy it like it does on bubble) @devs? That would balance high CS specs / playstyles which is more about setup and landing your opener, you rely on it to put your target in a bad spot and have an upper hand, if a simple 15k feather item can almost nullify your spec / template then something is wrong and needs fixed.

Full DW / LA / CD will always have more sustained dmg, more DPS, more offhand hits / procs / poison appliances etc, I played myself shadowzerk and mercfill back on live and you would not be afraid to jump light tanks or hybrids (pre and post toa as well). But also on live eating a Perf from a rr6+ high CS sin was hurting, and not just like a normal hit.

/Bnotashamed + Aicha
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:48 PM by Mavella
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:33 PM
No offense meant to anyone, but this is a thread about the state of Assassins on Phoenix and not how good thanes or other visibles that can't pick their fights are vs sins or why you can or can't find a stealther if he vanishes.

To be constructive to the thread myself, would it be hard to make Perf / Backstab (I and II) completely ignore Ablative charge (to not simply destroy it like it does on bubble) @devs? That would balance high CS specs / playstyles which is more about setup and landing your opener, you rely on it to put your target in a bad spot and have an upper hand, if a simple 15k feather item can almost nullify your spec / template then something is wrong and needs fixed.

Full DW / LA / CD will always have more sustained dmg, more DPS, more offhand hits / procs / poison appliances etc, I played myself shadowzerk and mercfill back on live and you would not be afraid to jump light tanks or hybrids (pre and post toa as well). But also on live eating a Perf from a rr6+ high CS sin was hurting, and not just like a normal hit.

/Bnotashamed + Aicha

The old charge cycle kept this to a minimum now the meta is entirely based around preloading ablatives and popping DA or heal charge every fight. If you don't use one of these and the enemy does you're likely dead.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:58 PM by Turano
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:33 PM
Full DW / LA / CD will always have more sustained dmg, more DPS, more offhand hits / procs / poison appliances etc, I played myself shadowzerk and mercfill back on live and you would not be afraid to jump light tanks or hybrids (pre and post toa as well). But also on live eating a Perf from a rr6+ high CS sin was hurting, and not just like a normal hit.
CS got devalued more and more with gear and buff progression. Everyone running around with cap resis and spec AF buff makes PA almost laughable. If it wasn't for the 7 second stun on CD it would be even worse. On live you had toa meele and style bonus that kept PA at least on a decent level damage wise

Infils and SB's at least have a useful alternative with their respective dual lines
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:59 PM by Turano
Mavella wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:48 PM
The old charge cycle kept this to a minimum now the meta is entirely based around preloading ablatives and popping DA or heal charge every fight. If you don't use one of these and the enemy does you're likely dead.
pretty much exactly what we predicted would happen when they removed the stats charges. I'm glad gameplay is so much better now
Wed 17 Jul 2019 10:00 PM by Anelyn77
Yeah Yroniel told me about it as well, thing is CS needs some umpf for the points spent, as you rely on your opener against anyone (more so than a szerk / mercfill etc, where yeah it;s nice to get the side haste debuff going, but if you can't you won't pass the opportunity to engage in most scenarios).

On my road to 50 from 44, I only ever 3 shot a r1l1 46+ kobold huntress untemped, and at 49 3 shot a rr2 cabalist untemped (with full PA chain, offhand hits and insta DD). Then I started perfing lvl 50 templated targets. 50 RR7 bd at lvl 49, his health was at 80% after PA+CD+SS (obv disease resist), I could not take him under 70% no matter what.

That I can't or shouldn't be able to kill a BD is fine, but at least I should be able to force a Purge or something with a full opener (fully temped NS blades). It's a freaking cloth caster, not a necro pet ^^

Don't get me wrong, I will continue to play Neptunia and have great fun with her (might even run her in our 8m mix), but I do believe they should look at CS sometime soon for all sins.

Cheers <3

/Neptunia + Aicha + Bnot
Wed 17 Jul 2019 10:18 PM by Tigerforce
By no means am I an expert sin. I'm a slash infil. That being said just today's session I managed abt 47 Death blows 49 RP's from kills and 9 deaths. I have no issue in killing 90% of all classes. Especially BD's, they are actually one of the preferred target for me to go after if I believe I can get PA off. From my experience they die rather quick. There are literally 3 classes in which I try to avoid, Zerker, BM, and Champion (depending on RR). For other realm sins I wld add in Reavers to that and Mercs. Reflex is a nasty thing for those that attack fast.

From my testing, stealthier here cant play like they do on live. That doesn't mean they're under powered, just means you gotta change up your tactics on playstyle. Viper5 does wonders. Its dmg that ticks away for those blocks/parrys/evades. Augs are for higher RR. Viper/Purge/Vanish are your key tool sets (IMO).

Go back to playing like back in the day. Carry multiple of the same wpns with multiple poisons on them. Everyone purges, expect that! Know to reapply/swap wpns out. This is how sins rocked back in the day, and the ones that were separated from the bad ones.
Wed 17 Jul 2019 10:44 PM by gotwqqd
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 9:02 PM
Loki wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:59 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:05 PM
Cool story, was vanish down?

So OT shows some interesting issues and your response is that ... stealth is really good ? That Potion of Lucidity doesn't help when stealthers run in a different direction ? That Vanish is really good ? That doesn't say anything about the class, says a lot about you though. I play a Thane too, rr5 and haven't grouped or joined the zerg BG unlike you. Reading about you failing to find stealthers is H I L A R I O U S ! I find them all the time ... And with a straight face you'll tell me you are a non-speed visible ? You have neutral hasteners all over NF , what more do you want , to have speed of the realm on your quickbar ? Sure, you'll say it doesn't help outrunning full groups, but for the run to bled bridge, docks and back that you do, you don't need speed 6. Besides, the point is speed of the realm is enough to find a stealther if you run through him and see him. For further advices, find an average Thane and he'll explain.

As for the vanish below the belt attempt, I would assume you're mature enough to understand there's 2 sides, if not more, to every story. Obviously, since I saw you talk about family and kids, I imagined you would understand that. But I was wrong. Since I don't have time to waste with immature attempts at replies, Imma add you to that sweet sweet foe list I just discovered.

Oh for the future, when you take money out of guild vaults to be the guild crafter, make sure you log in once in a while to help with guild templates so I dont have to do that for you, while you're here spewing bullshit like the forum warrior you are. Got that , sport ? Adios !

Great... I have the wrath of someone mistaking me for someone else.
I'm not an officer, or have any rights to withdraw funds, in any guild. So you've mistaken me for someone else. My crafter is even selfmade here, and never received funds from the guild.
So lets stop pretending you know my name or how I play, okay?

But that is besides the point.

Yes, stealth has everything to do with it. The choice and ability to avoid fights is huge, it's why so many are drawn to stealthers.
The misconception is that stealthers somehow should be better, or as good, at 1v1 as classes that don't get to pick their fights.
If they are as good or better, why play anything but stealth or in groups?
Stealth is why assassins are, and always should be, the weakest melee class in the game.

I am glad you find stealthers. And so do I, but it seems my SL pots don't work as well as yours or you fight worse stealthers. Because the ones I fight change direction when they stealth, and unless I pick the right direction, they are gone.

After stealth or vanish I would ALWAYS come back toward the enemy at about 45 or less degrees
They are so focused on a target trying to get as much distance as they could I would usually be behind them safely
Wed 17 Jul 2019 10:54 PM by florin
Life’s a little tougher with a significant drop of suiciding task followers streaming out of portal keeps. No more one shoting blues and greens to RR11? Phixion is rolling in his grave RIP
Wed 17 Jul 2019 11:03 PM by Highfather17
What are the best RA's I could get as a RR4L6 inf?

Figured I'd ask here cause Albion board has ignored my question.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 12:44 AM by Mavella
Highfather17 wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 11:03 PM
What are the best RA's I could get as a RR4L6 inf?

Figured I'd ask here cause Albion board has ignored my question.

Purge Vanish Lw tireless crit chance
Thu 18 Jul 2019 12:45 AM by Tigerforce
Highfather17 wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 11:03 PM
What are the best RA's I could get as a RR4L6 inf?

Figured I'd ask here cause Albion board has ignored my question.

Viper5 is what guaranteed me a kill almost every time. Especially considering the possibility of being added. Purge and stuff can be handy, but it becomes a waste at times if you get added.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:13 AM by Cadebrennus
Campjr wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:28 PM
None of you even address the issue the topic is about. This has nothing to do with adds or how hard it is as a solo tanker, etc. Its about the lack of power an assassin really has on this server. The current state of assassins has bacsically made the class only viable against each other. C

Just about can’t touch any R5 tank even with full PA chain and poisons. All the casters that run solo are virtually untargetable (Sm,BD, Necro). Traditional cloth wearers are very very rarely running solo.

R6+ Rangers, Hunters, Scouts, Minstrels are very tough fights when goodies are up. But that is far more often than you think.

With that being said the only game assassins really are on somewhat of an equal field is other Assassins and even then that’s not equal. Current state has it close to NS>Inf=SB. Could make the argument that Inf is better at low RR while SB is better at high. Give them a R5/6 average and they are about equal with Nightshades taking the cake.

Tanks are meant to be Stealther killers. Stealthers are supposed to be Caster killers. Casters are supposed to be Tank killers. Rock paper scissors.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 8:26 AM by Gorgoroth
Hello all. Thank you all for your input.

Just to say this again, as this was my main point: Assassins are very weak currently, compared to what they were around this Patch version on Live(I dont mean to compare Assassins vs other classes at this moment, but to compare them to what Assassins are and were good at traditionally, compared to the current state of the game on Phoenix).
That doesnt mean that an Assassin is currently completely useless or a waste of time, but i think buffs, WITHOUT OVERBUFFING, or other ways of solving this issue, are appropriate in this current state of the game.

You can - of course - challenge how to measure the current "Powerlevel" of assassins on Phoenix, as there is a lot of subjectivity going on as well as different skill levels, but I assure you (for what its worth) that I tried to be as objective as I can in my original assessment and now. I am not aiming to achieve a state of the game, where Assassins or my class in particular steamrolls everything without contest. That would be just as bad for the game as the situation at hand currently is.

Right now as it is, Assassins are playing vs each other, random whatever low RR players, and the occasional lucky kill of a "tough" class whom you caught out in the open. Some have more success than others, but high performers do not represent the norm, just to remind you.
If you however assume equal skill level, maxed Templates, the very open NF without chokes at all (not even water, as everyone is a world class swimmer here on phoenix) Assassins suck right now most of the time in what they are traditionally excelling at. This is a fact, and there are mostly obvious reasons for this, which i tried to highlight in my original post.

I don't claim to know how you could improve this situation, without making assassins too strong or braking a fragile balance (which we currenty dont have). There are things id like to see in game (like legendary weapons for example), but i dont know if this would be a solution. Hence i reach out to you, and ask for your opinion, dear community.

Thank you - as always - for your time.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:14 AM by Taniquetil
I think what the OP wants is as much as possible for there to be balance, and skill involved in a fight, not Rock Paper Scissors, because realistically how long can you keep playing rock paper scissors before it gets boring.

Ideal scenario, BALANCE and some more powerful class traits but with a challenge/difficulty not impossible to overcome via skillcap some classes still have the upper hand, but with the right skill/rng can be overcome by the underdog, therefore making trying to solo said strong character rewarding if you win, but more likely than just flat out ignoring them.

Add risk reward back in to landing/missing PA's when classes run around and dont give a shit if they get PA'd, or just stand there and wait for it, you know theres a problem. Excluding T1 Tanks from this perhaps.

Classes that unfortunately are 100% waste of time if played by someone who has a basic concept of their class.

Necro - 100% waste of time, completely overpowered joke RN, I hear SB's have some joy with the DD proc back chain against low RR's.
SM - 75% pet waste of time, most dont even bother quickcasting or MoCcing.
BD - High RR with PD also happy to just facetank a PA chain, havent seen one try to QC root me and gain any distance either. Risk reward would be PA has devastating effect, but a missed PA can and should almost guarantee a loss.
Friar - At significant RR these guys are once again just a total waste of time to fight.

***Reminder i do not want free wins when I say this**** I'd like both sides to have fun/close fights, a nailbiting close fight where you win/lose is much better than just watching saying....NOPE not fighting that ever, i'll just wait until they get bored or get zerged, as that would mean even less solo classes out and about, and less fun for them too.

Thoughts

T1 Tanks
ARMSMAN/WARRIOR/HERO/PALADIN
-Should be a tough, very tough fight for a Sin 1v1 to play to the class lore.
- Currently feels close if all styles from the sin are well executed, all poisons fully applied, haste debuffed, purge is Up to break slam etc. For the most part it feels that way right now, these guys are good but not unbeatable. Purge/IP/RA dumping would usually lead to a vanish, and maybe not be tactically sound for the Tank to dump everything.

T2 Tank
Mercenary/Berserker/Savage/Blademaster/VW
- Same as above, but these guys have an edge when speccing for raw DPS and RA dumping will win, but a square fight you can expect a good duel.

Utility
Skald/Minstrel
Skald probably the same as T2 tank at decent RR
Minstrel, no comment, weird class.

Solo Melee Specialist
REAVER/THANE/CHAMPION
- Should be a v tough fight, but can be tactically outsmarted, Thanes are in that spot right now, you can bait ST and escape and still keep the upper hand on them, or disengage and rework when their RA's are down. ST is entirely dodgable and I cannot remember the last time I got caught in it if Purge was up for first slam.

These guys should be tough, but tactically they arent unbeatable (cant comment re champ). A few sadcases just run back to the keep when their RA's are down, but I guess that's life.

SIN/ARCHER
Pretty well balanced imo, well played characters of each spec can win/lose accordingly. RA's can decide fights.

- PA needs a Buff because of the Abla meta
- Scouts need some love.

Casters
Spec/RA's should be able to affect a fight, but PA should be fairly deadly and is for the most part except for some of the more imbalanced classes right now



* PA'ing a caster in a group or infiltrating a keep is possibly another topic to be addressed but interesting point to raise.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:15 AM by Druth
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 8:26 AM
Hello all. Thank you all for your input.

Just to say this again, as this was my main point: Assassins are very weak currently, compared to what they were around this Patch version on Live(I dont mean to compare Assassins vs other classes at this moment, but to compare them to what Assassins are and were good at traditionally, compared to the current state of the game on Phoenix).
That doesnt mean that an Assassin is currently completely useless or a waste of time, but i think buffs, WITHOUT OVERBUFFING, or other ways of solving this issue, are appropriate in this current state of the game.

You can - of course - challenge how to measure the current "Powerlevel" of assassins on Phoenix, as there is a lot of subjectivity going on as well as different skill levels, but I assure you (for what its worth) that I tried to be as objective as I can in my original assessment and now. I am not aiming to achieve a state of the game, where Assassins or my class in particular steamrolls everything without contest. That would be just as bad for the game as the situation at hand currently is.

Right now as it is, Assassins are playing vs each other, random whatever low RR players, and the occasional lucky kill of a "tough" class whom you caught out in the open. Some have more success than others, but high performers do not represent the norm, just to remind you.
If you however assume equal skill level, maxed Templates, the very open NF without chokes at all (not even water, as everyone is a world class swimmer here on phoenix) Assassins suck right now most of the time in what they are traditionally excelling at. This is a fact, and there are mostly obvious reasons for this, which i tried to highlight in my original post.

I don't claim to know how you could improve this situation, without making assassins too strong or braking a fragile balance (which we currenty dont have). There are things id like to see in game (like legendary weapons for example), but i dont know if this would be a solution. Hence i reach out to you, and ask for your opinion, dear community.

Thank you - as always - for your time.

First of all, what was Live back at this "patch level" (which is a strange concept, since this server no longer matches any previous patch level) had nothing to do with balanced, and the server tries to be balanced.
I for one would be pretty sad if we went with "how it was on Live" because my thane would be utter crap. I would then prob go as BD, which was crazy OP (even more than now).
So what "was" doesn't work when discussing Phoenix balance, both because it makes some classes crazy OP, but also some crazy gimp.


I still don't understand why you expect to have stealth, that is really strong here, and want buffs as well.
Pets don't even chance through stealth, which was a thing at this "patch level".
Thu 18 Jul 2019 1:17 PM by Turano
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:15 AM
I still don't understand why you expect to have stealth, that is really strong here, and want buffs as well.
Because avoiding fights will gain you no rp's. That is the same discussion people have here about vanish being overpowered
If the stealther population wasn't so high that they find enough fights with each other they would soon be gone completely.
And with them the soloer scene would be dead because all you noble solo tanks would have nothing left easily kill
Thu 18 Jul 2019 2:00 PM by Gorgoroth
Turano wrote:
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:15 AM
I still don't understand why you expect to have stealth, that is really strong here, and want buffs as well.
Because avoiding fights will gain you no rp's. That is the same discussion people have here about vanish being overpowered
If the stealther population wasn't so high that they find enough fights with each other they would soon be gone completely.
And with them the soloer scene would be dead because all you noble solo tanks would have nothing left easily kill

What I expect out of DAoC is a fair challenge to achieve what the class of my choosing is supposed to achieve - reasonably well. Of course the higher my RR, the better i should be able to accomplish this. I think this principle is true for most classes here, which is where the question of balance comes in.

And i am pretty much aligned with what Turano said. Assassins have a great ability to avoid fights. Which grants no RP. And even though i respect my fellow solo Players a lot (stealthed or visible), i kindly ask you Druth to put yourself in the shoes of an Assassin in the current state of the game. Its not a shoe that fits well, feels good and one could use some stitching.

Cheers.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:00 PM by Druth
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 2:00 PM
Turano wrote:
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:15 AM
I still don't understand why you expect to have stealth, that is really strong here, and want buffs as well.
Because avoiding fights will gain you no rp's. That is the same discussion people have here about vanish being overpowered
If the stealther population wasn't so high that they find enough fights with each other they would soon be gone completely.
And with them the soloer scene would be dead because all you noble solo tanks would have nothing left easily kill

What I expect out of DAoC is a fair challenge to achieve what the class of my choosing is supposed to achieve - reasonably well. Of course the higher my RR, the better i should be able to accomplish this. I think this principle is true for most classes here, which is where the question of balance comes in.

And i am pretty much aligned with what Turano said. Assassins have a great ability to avoid fights. Which grants no RP. And even though i respect my fellow solo Players a lot (stealthed or visible), i kindly ask you Druth to put yourself in the shoes of an Assassin in the current state of the game. Its not a shoe that fits well, feels good and one could use some stitching.

Cheers.

I think we just disagree on the value of being able to pick fights, avoid fights, escape fights, dodge groups, and finally vanish from bad fights.

I would be all in for a buff to assassins, if it came with more stealth detection, and stealth being toned down. But seeing as everyone seems to view stealth as near worthless you'd likely welcome such a trade-off.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:23 PM by jelzinga_EU
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:14 AM
Classes that unfortunately are 100% waste of time if played by someone who has a basic concept of their class.

Necro - 100% waste of time, completely overpowered joke RN, I hear SB's have some joy with the DD proc back chain against low RR's.
SM - 75% pet waste of time, most dont even bother quickcasting or MoCcing.
BD - High RR with PD also happy to just facetank a PA chain, havent seen one try to QC root me and gain any distance either. Risk reward would be PA has devastating effect, but a missed PA can and should almost guarantee a loss.
Friar - At significant RR these guys are once again just a total waste of time to fight.

***Reminder i do not want free wins when I say this**** I'd like both sides to have fun/close fights, a nailbiting close fight where you win/lose is much better than just watching saying....NOPE not fighting that ever, i'll just wait until they get bored or get zerged, as that would mean even less solo classes out and about, and less fun for them too.

{{snip}}

SIN/ARCHER
Pretty well balanced imo, well played characters of each spec can win/lose accordingly. RA's can decide fights.

- PA needs a Buff because of the Abla meta
- Scouts need some love.

Casters
Spec/RA's should be able to affect a fight, but PA should be fairly deadly and is for the most part except for some of the more imbalanced classes right now

* PA'ing a caster in a group or infiltrating a keep is possibly another topic to be addressed but interesting point to raise.

While I agree with most of what you said, the biggest problem(s) for assassins on Phoenix I see:

* Porting all around NF makes it very hard to "camp". I know this is a l2play-issue in the eyes of most, but it seems to bail down to camping bridges and docks for the most part. In OF at least you had many more viable camping-spots (e.g. in between AMG <> MMG, near Bolg, EMain-entrance, PK <> MG etc) and you would be sure people would come through. With boating-routes and porting, it is hard to find a reasonable spot except for the docks and bridges. Picking off stragglers is hard since the 70+ keep-taking PvE BG-zergs run all together and with the various boating- and porting routines it is very unpredictable where the stragglers will come from. The latter might be less of a concern for Alb-stealthers- seeing as they can group a minstrel for speed to quickly change spots, but for Mid/Hib/solo'ers it is a pita.

* No-role in keep-fights. With the ridiculous damage the guards do relative to our HP it is a death sentence to go inside a keep without heals. For healers there is little reason to group an assassin - especially since light-tanks can also climb walls

I do not agree about your assessment that sin/archers are balanced. Blades-Ranger and Blade-NS are way over the top in their fights vs SB and I think many Scouts also feel (very) weak. Occasionally you might have a fight where the Scout (or SB) wins such match-ups but many times it is like skating ice up hill. Yes, I know about the Toughness 9, 50 LA, /use dmg-add stuff and even with all that you will probably struggle against an equal-RR - and in the process completely lost the ability to do the stuff what makes assassins stand out (perf, assassinate something quickly, restealth). Same with Archery really which hurts scouts the most.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:25 PM by inoeth
learn how to play assassins and stop complaining... your class is strong enough and i can tell that there are plenty of nearly unbeatable assassins out there!
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:27 PM by Sepplord
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:00 PM
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 2:00 PM
Turano wrote: Because avoiding fights will gain you no rp's. That is the same discussion people have here about vanish being overpowered
If the stealther population wasn't so high that they find enough fights with each other they would soon be gone completely.
And with them the soloer scene would be dead because all you noble solo tanks would have nothing left easily kill

What I expect out of DAoC is a fair challenge to achieve what the class of my choosing is supposed to achieve - reasonably well. Of course the higher my RR, the better i should be able to accomplish this. I think this principle is true for most classes here, which is where the question of balance comes in.

And i am pretty much aligned with what Turano said. Assassins have a great ability to avoid fights. Which grants no RP. And even though i respect my fellow solo Players a lot (stealthed or visible), i kindly ask you Druth to put yourself in the shoes of an Assassin in the current state of the game. Its not a shoe that fits well, feels good and one could use some stitching.

Cheers.

I think we just disagree on the value of being able to pick fights, avoid fights, escape fights, dodge groups, and finally vanish from bad fights.

I would be all in for a buff to assassins, if it came with more stealth detection, and stealth being toned down. But seeing as everyone seems to view stealth as near worthless you'd likely welcome such a trade-off.

noone sees it as worthless...but isn't the trade that noone would even think of taking an assassin into group outside of a pity spot?
You (for example) running around solo, is a choice. The usual protection of a thane when roaming the frontiers should be his group. Assassins don't get that, they get stealth so they can survive.

I don't think that assassins are as weak as some here claim, but the argument that they have stealth and can pick fights, therefor must be weaker has its flaws, imo. Especially when you consider which fights are there to pick? Picking your fight is only a huge advantage when you don't constantly pick bad fights out of desperation. It's not like there are serious amounts of solowizards running around. (although i have seen one, disguised as a friar. A briton firewiz...says a lot when you consider that it was the friars pretending to be casters first, and now the wizards are pretending to be friars because assassins don't pick fights with them)


That said, i still believe the biggest problem is that we can not operate around sieges at all. And NF lets everyone boat close to sieges. Guards adding without LOS and then shooting you without LOS makes climbing into keeps a suicide mission. I don't think a combat-strength buff is a good solution.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:48 PM by Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:27 PM
noone sees it as worthless...but isn't the trade that noone would even think of taking an assassin into group outside of a pity spot?
You (for example) running around solo, is a choice. The usual protection of a thane when roaming the frontiers should be his group. Assassins don't get that, they get stealth so they can survive.

I don't think that assassins are as weak as some here claim, but the argument that they have stealth and can pick fights, therefor must be weaker has its flaws, imo. Especially when you consider which fights are there to pick? Picking your fight is only a huge advantage when you don't constantly pick bad fights out of desperation. It's not like there are serious amounts of solowizards running around. (although i have seen one, disguised as a friar. A briton firewiz...says a lot when you consider that it was the friars pretending to be casters first, and now the wizards are pretending to be friars because assassins don't pick fights with them)


That said, i still believe the biggest problem is that we can not operate around sieges at all. And NF lets everyone boat close to sieges. Guards adding without LOS and then shooting you without LOS makes climbing into keeps a suicide mission. I don't think a combat-strength buff is a good solution.

It baffles me people can't see that having stealth has to cost on strength. And it baffles me even more when people say "assassins were better at this patch lvl" and not understand that stealth was worse.
The reason why assassins don't get groups, is because part of their strength lies in stealth, which a group has no use for.
It would be utter insanity if a class both had access to great stealth AND could match a melee class, this is one of the reasons why minstrels has gimp stealth.

My point stands, if stealth is not a good ability, then suggest nerfing stealth in exchange for improvement of other abilities.

No one can operate in sieges. I'm a shield user and I get hit by volley and npc archers, and often since I can't see them, I can't engage.
I can't stealth, so if someone with a palitone targets me, my only option is to run out of range, or run in circles the rest of the fight.

I know what you want, but it sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:01 PM by Campjr
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:48 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:27 PM
noone sees it as worthless...but isn't the trade that noone would even think of taking an assassin into group outside of a pity spot?
You (for example) running around solo, is a choice. The usual protection of a thane when roaming the frontiers should be his group. Assassins don't get that, they get stealth so they can survive.

I don't think that assassins are as weak as some here claim, but the argument that they have stealth and can pick fights, therefor must be weaker has its flaws, imo. Especially when you consider which fights are there to pick? Picking your fight is only a huge advantage when you don't constantly pick bad fights out of desperation. It's not like there are serious amounts of solowizards running around. (although i have seen one, disguised as a friar. A briton firewiz...says a lot when you consider that it was the friars pretending to be casters first, and now the wizards are pretending to be friars because assassins don't pick fights with them)


That said, i still believe the biggest problem is that we can not operate around sieges at all. And NF lets everyone boat close to sieges. Guards adding without LOS and then shooting you without LOS makes climbing into keeps a suicide mission. I don't think a combat-strength buff is a good solution.

It baffles me people can't see that having stealth has to cost on strength. And it baffles me even more when people say "assassins were better at this patch lvl" and not understand that stealth was worse.
The reason why assassins don't get groups, is because part of their strength lies in stealth, which a group has no use for.
It would be utter insanity if a class both had access to great stealth AND could match a melee class, this is one of the reasons why minstrels has gimp stealth.

My point stands, if stealth is not a good ability, then suggest nerfing stealth in exchange for improvement of other abilities.

No one can operate in sieges. I'm a shield user and I get hit by volley and npc archers, and often since I can't see them, I can't engage.
I can't stealth, so if someone with a palitone targets me, my only option is to run out of range, or run in circles the rest of the fight.

I know what you want, but it sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it.

Have you even read the entire thread? Stealth does come at a cost for the class... we are the sheep of the game. We are "cheap" because we have stealth and vanish. But, being able to "pick fights" is the point of the class with what is suppose to be a very deadly opener. In its current state, it isnt deadly at all... I cant tell you how many comebacks ive made or that have been made against me..

I listed every class we can beat and Tani touched on it as well. What is the rebuttal to that? You firmly believe that only 3 classes from each realm should be a kill for us given landing full Crit strike chains? To add to that disappointment, 1-2 of said classes rarely if ever run solo..

so we dont get groups we are outperformed by all classes in group roles.. this leaves us on our own with a 10-15% reliable class selection for kills? We arent asking to beat classes facetanking everyone. My ask is to look at the CS line. We invest in a large amount of points for us to really yield us so little.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:21 PM by Mavella
A big part of the issue is RA load outs on visibles that are looking for a fight and those that are specced to group are pretty much two extremes. A sin can dispatch a lot of tanks and hybrids that are group specced but those are rarely seen solo. Generally you're gonna run into a coast guarder that sits at the keep while cooldown cycle so they are always up if you try and jump them.

Ultimately, sins have zero toys here and zero tools to help them win a fight outside of purge and passives. When you can't just overwhelm someone you have to resort to dot kite cheese, hope you can run and restealth, or Vanish which doesn't win you anything. With 90% of conflicts happening near a bridge, dock, or keep, 2 out of 3 of these tactics aren't really viable depending on the time of day you play.

If a sin runs into or picks a fight with almost any visible loaded out to fight back with the right cooldowns up its game over just about 100% of the time. This is where the Vanish frustration really comes in because people want to be rewarded especially when they blow cooldowns to win, well sins don't have that option. They get to MAYBE not die every 15 minutes instead. I'd rather have active RA choices that actually help me win fights personally. My Vanish is spent getting away from FGs or stealth groups 99% of the time anyway.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:40 PM by Kemoauc
Campjr wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:01 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:48 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 3:27 PM
noone sees it as worthless...but isn't the trade that noone would even think of taking an assassin into group outside of a pity spot?
You (for example) running around solo, is a choice. The usual protection of a thane when roaming the frontiers should be his group. Assassins don't get that, they get stealth so they can survive.

I don't think that assassins are as weak as some here claim, but the argument that they have stealth and can pick fights, therefor must be weaker has its flaws, imo. Especially when you consider which fights are there to pick? Picking your fight is only a huge advantage when you don't constantly pick bad fights out of desperation. It's not like there are serious amounts of solowizards running around. (although i have seen one, disguised as a friar. A briton firewiz...says a lot when you consider that it was the friars pretending to be casters first, and now the wizards are pretending to be friars because assassins don't pick fights with them)


That said, i still believe the biggest problem is that we can not operate around sieges at all. And NF lets everyone boat close to sieges. Guards adding without LOS and then shooting you without LOS makes climbing into keeps a suicide mission. I don't think a combat-strength buff is a good solution.

It baffles me people can't see that having stealth has to cost on strength. And it baffles me even more when people say "assassins were better at this patch lvl" and not understand that stealth was worse.
The reason why assassins don't get groups, is because part of their strength lies in stealth, which a group has no use for.
It would be utter insanity if a class both had access to great stealth AND could match a melee class, this is one of the reasons why minstrels has gimp stealth.

My point stands, if stealth is not a good ability, then suggest nerfing stealth in exchange for improvement of other abilities.

No one can operate in sieges. I'm a shield user and I get hit by volley and npc archers, and often since I can't see them, I can't engage.
I can't stealth, so if someone with a palitone targets me, my only option is to run out of range, or run in circles the rest of the fight.

I know what you want, but it sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it.

Have you even read the entire thread? Stealth does come at a cost for the class... we are the sheep of the game. We are "cheap" because we have stealth and vanish. But, being able to "pick fights" is the point of the class with what is suppose to be a very deadly opener. In its current state, it isnt deadly at all... I cant tell you how many comebacks ive made or that have been made against me..

I listed every class we can beat and Tani touched on it as well. What is the rebuttal to that? You firmly believe that only 3 classes from each realm should be a kill for us given landing full Crit strike chains? To add to that disappointment, 1-2 of said classes rarely if ever run solo..

so we dont get groups we are outperformed by all classes in group roles.. this leaves us on our own with a 10-15% reliable class selection for kills? We arent asking to beat classes facetanking everyone. My ask is to look at the CS line. We invest in a large amount of points for us to really yield us so little.

But Tani's list tells quite a different story than yours. Other than BD, SM, Necro and Friar everything is beatable but challenging depending on individual spec and which active Ra's are ready. And those "impossible" classes are pretty much unbeatable for any melee because they can't be touched by physical attacks at all.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:42 PM by Nildain
People naturally drift away from playing solo classes that are terrible at solo. Over time people are going to play classses that beat assassins otherwise they'll be in the situation the assassins in this thread are complaining about -- always losing fights. Especially as a visible class you have to contend with 8 mans rolling you with impunity. So because of the way DAOC is you either play a fast character or one that doesn't lose to assassins. If you buff assassins too much you just end up with no one ever soloing on anything other than assassin because why would you take a 50% win rate and give up stealth?

My point really is that no matter how you mess with balance people will slowly shift over to playing whatever wins the most/isn't frustrating to play. Soloing on a non-speed non-stealth is implicitly frustrating before you even factor in win/loss rate versus theoretical 1v1s given any smallman or full group will kill you on sight. The ideal would be if the classes were so balanced that all classes had a chance, whereby skill had the greatest influence on the outcome of fights, but that's effectively a pipe dream in a game with like 30+ classes where solo balance is not a priority.

Even with assassins in their current state the benefits they get from having stealth seems to keep them highly represented. I don't disagree that solo assassins don't really have any fair 1v1s to choose from, but...that's actually kind of true for everyone who solos unfortunately. I get RPs mostly when people foolishly attack me or when they try to 2v1 and I kill them anyway. I basically have to brute force my way to RPs, suffering through smallmans and groups farming me in order to find an unfair fight that I can win by RA dumping.

tl;dr buffing assassins substantially would lead to the server evolving into a different and still unfun state of affairs (even for assassins) because the problems you guys have are systemic, and not actually related to how strong assassins are

-- The rr9 Champ who understands why you don't want to 1v1 him
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:47 PM by Anelyn77
The only point I was going for was that CS should get some buffs, since being high CS spec your whole fight depends on the opener, and if a 15k feather counters your opener pretty much, it needs to be addressed.

<3

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aaicha
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:56 PM by Saroi
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 11:14 AM
Necro - 100% waste of time, completely overpowered joke RN, I hear SB's have some joy with the DD proc back chain against low RR's.


The 50 LA style deals around 130-140 cold damage. On Necro pets it deals 240 damage + the higher style damage. So yeah it is fun to fight Necro's and see their health drop rapidly after that.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 5:51 PM by Druth
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:47 PM
The only point I was going for was that CS should get some buffs, since being high CS spec your whole fight depends on the opener, and if a 15k feather counters your opener pretty much, it needs to be addressed.

<3

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aaicha

I don't see assassins complain they get charge+pot enabling an IP2 for free (a combo they benefit the most from of all classes), or damage add they don't usually have.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:00 PM by Druth
Nildain wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:42 PM
People naturally drift away from playing solo classes that are terrible at solo. So over time people are going to play classses that beats assassins or else they'll always be in the situation the assassins in this thread are complaining about -- always losing fights. Especially as a visible person you have to contend with 8 mans rolling you with impunity. So because of the way DAOC is you either play a fast character or one that doesn't lose to assassins. If you buff assassins too much you just end up with no one ever soloing on anything other than assassin because why would you take a 50% win rate and give up stealth?

My point really is that no matter how you mess with balance people will slowly shift over to playing whatever wins the most/isn't frustrating to play. Soloing on a non-speed non-stealth is implicitly frustrating before you even factor in win/loss rate versus theoretical 1v1s. The ideal would be if shit was so balanced that everything had a chance, but that's effectively a pipe dream in a design with like 30+ classes.

Even with assassins in their current state the benefits they get from having stealth seems to keep them highly represented. I don't disagree that solo assassins don't really have any fair 1v1s to choose from, but...that's actually kind of true for everyone who solos unfortunately. I get RPs mostly when people foolishly attack me or when they try to 2v1 and I kill them anyway. I basically have to brute force my way to RPs, suffering through smallmans and groups farming me to find an unfair fight that I can win by RA dumping.

tl;dr buffing assassins substantially would lead to the server evolving into a different and still unfun state of affairs (even for assassins) because the problems you guys have are systemic, and not actually related to how strong assassins are

-- The rr9 Champ who understand why you don't want to 1v1 him

I think this defines the issue very well.
Assassins has made the Meta evolve into a mix where assassins have no targets to kill.
Bard, druid, warden, eldritch, animist, mentalist, runemaster, shaman, healer, cleric, wizard, theurg, are all classes assassins reliably can kill, but no one will solo on them because there are still lots of assassins around.
If a solo assassin had 50% of killing my thane, why the hell-fire would I risk running unstealthed in a game where groups will run 2 zones to hunt a solo visi?

I've seen many assassins kill xp'ers around Fens, no one comes to find them.
I have hunted around Rena/Hurb and after 2 kills 3+ will come and kill me. And the same goes if similar happens in Mid.
Why the difference? Because they KNOW they will find me, the stealther they have little to no chance of finding.
That is the strength of stealth, and if you wanted to do 1v1 fights, you should have rolled a visi class.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:09 PM by Campjr
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 5:51 PM
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:47 PM
The only point I was going for was that CS should get some buffs, since being high CS spec your whole fight depends on the opener, and if a 15k feather counters your opener pretty much, it needs to be addressed.

<3

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aaicha

I don't see assassins complain they get charge+pot enabling an IP2 for free (a combo they benefit the most from of all classes), or damage add they don't usually have.

what.... every other non assassin is running the same combo but with IP. Im not seeing your argument.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:10 PM by florin
Nildain wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:42 PM
People naturally drift away from playing solo classes that are terrible at solo. So over time people are going to play classses that beat assassins otherwise they'll always be in the situation the assassins in this thread are complaining about -- always losing fights. Especially as a visible person you have to contend with 8 mans rolling you with impunity. So because of the way DAOC is you either play a fast character or one that doesn't lose to assassins. If you buff assassins too much you just end up with no one ever soloing on anything other than assassin because why would you take a 50% win rate and give up stealth?

My point really is that no matter how you mess with balance people will slowly shift over to playing whatever wins the most/isn't frustrating to play. Soloing on a non-speed non-stealth is implicitly frustrating before you even factor in win/loss rate versus theoretical 1v1s. The ideal would be if shit was so balanced that everything had a chance, but that's effectively a pipe dream in a design with like 30+ classes.

Even with assassins in their current state the benefits they get from having stealth seems to keep them highly represented. I don't disagree that solo assassins don't really have any fair 1v1s to choose from, but...that's actually kind of true for everyone who solos unfortunately. I get RPs mostly when people foolishly attack me or when they try to 2v1 and I kill them anyway. I basically have to brute force my way to RPs, suffering through smallmans and groups farming me to find an unfair fight that I can win by RA dumping.

tl;dr buffing assassins substantially would lead to the server evolving into a different and still unfun state of affairs (even for assassins) because the problems you guys have are systemic, and not actually related to how strong assassins are

-- The rr9 Champ who understand why you don't want to 1v1 him

The life of a solo necro as well - usually get ganged up on, like the 3 RR3 hunters that poked me yesterday. But occasionally we get good fights...not with champs, they are the devil.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:15 PM by Druth
Campjr wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:09 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 5:51 PM
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:47 PM
The only point I was going for was that CS should get some buffs, since being high CS spec your whole fight depends on the opener, and if a 15k feather counters your opener pretty much, it needs to be addressed.

<3

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aaicha

I don't see assassins complain they get charge+pot enabling an IP2 for free (a combo they benefit the most from of all classes), or damage add they don't usually have.

what.... every other non assassin is running the same combo but with IP. Im not seeing your argument.

I fight assassin, likely gonna be diseased, unless I time that purge very well.
Assassin fight any non-assassin not diseased.

Add to this that heal is infinite better than no heal, IP classes just adds extra heal, which is not %'s wise as good.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 7:06 PM by cere2
Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:23 PM
I have to say I didn't have much problems, especially with my SB. But that was more of a specc thing. I said it multiple times and I will say it again. LA > CS

You are talking about being 50 CS and getting also PA chain on a NS. Well, PA gives you no big advantage on this server, especially vs. Tanks. PA damage is not high on this server and more and more people are catching up to the Abla charge. With my NS I PA'd a few SB's over the weekend and did like 450, max 500 damage. Taking 150 damage of from Abla, you have like 300-350 damage. If the target is a chain wearer, PA does a lot less damage. Maybe like 350? Taking Abla again, the damage is 200.

WS/Con debuff reduces health around 330. So basically your PA gets fully neglected from your debuff. The only thing you have is maybe 50 damage bonus, because your PA destroys the Abla, while the enemy Assassin will hit you for like 100-130 damage from his style, unless he tried to PA too and only does unstyled it will be less. Always depends if he has a quick or slow weapon as opener. So basically vs. other Assassin, even if you land PA you are practically both at the same health at this moment. And if he purges CD you will have to reapply poison, giving him even an advantage for a short moment.

As for fighting tanks or melees in general, I can only give you the advice to have 39 axe and open with the 34% haste debuff. You can ask Kemy here how annoying that is. It helps a lot vs. BM/Merc or 2h Tanks. Get damage add charge on for a huge damage boost and you are pretty much good to go.

Sure, you will never win every fight because there is too much random going on and I feel lately it is getting worse.

I don't see a class that is really unbeatable as a SB. Especially since you don't have to fight a stupid class like SM.

Wow, I fully agree with your post here, an oddity I know maining a ranger.
I will also say since I started myself a few sin's not to forget to mention the AF debuff styles etc.
Also yes the con debuff takes about 300-350 hp away instantly. And your sword con debuff stacks as a SB. So an additional 250-300 hp instantly gone.
If your opponent purges, they don't get that health back either...unless they purge then IP etc, but then you stun them and they toast....
I wondered for a while why I could side-stun/dance at will around 90% of the stealthers I attacked and still lost. Then I realized I had 1117 hp down from 1680 after con debuffs, and after str and ws debuff I hit like a wet noodle, if I landed anything at all ;P
I don't think I would honestly fear any class as a decent RR assassin, except LOLnecro.

I don't even think about attacking a shield tank/thane/pally/SM/BD/Cabalist/LOLNecro, or any LT with a shield...with ranger. That...is suicide.
Thu 18 Jul 2019 7:45 PM by Sindralor
I just want to kill those guys standing at their keep trebuchets and shooting me on the bridge
thats my number one priority after evading the alb cost guard squads
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:51 AM by Sepplord
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 5:51 PM
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:47 PM
The only point I was going for was that CS should get some buffs, since being high CS spec your whole fight depends on the opener, and if a 15k feather counters your opener pretty much, it needs to be addressed.

<3

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aaicha

I don't see assassins complain they get charge+pot enabling an IP2 for free (a combo they benefit the most from of all classes), or damage add they don't usually have.

It's one or the other...not both since they share a timer
and healpots / DA-charge aren't custom phoenix inventions are they?
The DA-charge is stronger than the healcharge too

I usually can blindly agree with any arguments you make Druth but in this thread it's already the second time i disagree with your argumentation (i want to repeat though, that i agree on the conclusion that assassins should not get a combat strength buff).
What we need is NPC-LOS around structures (and maybe a slight reduction in melee-guard chase-speed)
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:01 AM by Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:51 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 5:51 PM
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Jul 2019 4:47 PM
The only point I was going for was that CS should get some buffs, since being high CS spec your whole fight depends on the opener, and if a 15k feather counters your opener pretty much, it needs to be addressed.

<3

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aaicha

I don't see assassins complain they get charge+pot enabling an IP2 for free (a combo they benefit the most from of all classes), or damage add they don't usually have.

It's one or the other...not both since they share a timer
and healpots / DA-charge aren't custom phoenix inventions are they?
The DA-charge is stronger than the healcharge too

I usually can blindly agree with any arguments you make Druth but in this thread it's already the second time i disagree with your argumentation (i want to repeat though, that i agree on the conclusion that assassins should not get a combat strength buff).
What we need is NPC-LOS around structures (and maybe a slight reduction in melee-guard chase-speed)

That's what the "or" means
Heart of Legion is a freeshard item, or after catacombs at least, never seen it before here.
And my whole point was that it seems hypocritical of sins posting here that:
- They think abla charge is to good, but don't seem to mind having access to IP2.
- They think sins are to weak compared to patch level, but seems fine that stealth is to strong.

Everyone wants less npc shooting through structures, that is not just assassins, I have no issues with that.
This is something that hurts support classes waaaaaaay more than assassins, so lets see if not the Devs are still working to tweak NF?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:29 AM by Gorgoroth
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:01 AM
- They think abla charge is to good, but don't seem to mind having access to IP2.
- They think sins are to weak compared to patch level, but seems fine that stealth is to strong.

Hello,
would you mind explaining what you mean with those 2 sentences?
I for example am happy to shelve my Ablative Charge (AND my Heart of Legion) for increased damage or better buffs or the ability to use a different damage type, as with legendary weapons, also if those things are applied vs me.
Having the Ablative charge is BAD; as you are forced to use those. So your survivability is linked to a timer and drains a lot of money out of your pocket, which makes Assassins especially pricey to play. (not even factoring in, how expensive an all max template or even a weaponless template for SBs and other Sins is)

To your second point. What do you even mean with "stealth being SO strong? Stealth is stealth, you are not likely to see me. Thats it. And you even have available counters to it, like the Stealth lore Pot. So may I ask you to elaborate on your 2 -seemingly - major points, which are not clear at all?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:33 AM by Druth
Gorgoroth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:29 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:01 AM
- They think abla charge is to good, but don't seem to mind having access to IP2.
- They think sins are to weak compared to patch level, but seems fine that stealth is to strong.

Hello,
would you mind explaining what you mean with those 2 sentences?
I for example am happy to shelve my Heart of Legion for increased damage or better buffs or the ability to use a different damage type, as with legendary weapons, also if those things are applied vs me.
Having the Heart and Ablative charges is BAD; as you are forced to use those. So your survivability is linked to a timer and drains a lot of money out of your pocket, which makes Assassins especially pricey to play. (not even factoring in, how expensive an all max template or even a weaponless template for SBs and other Sins is)

To your second point. What do you even mean with "stealth being SO strong? Stealth is stealth, you are not likely to see me. Thats it. And you even have available counters to it, like the Stealth lore Pot. So may I ask you to elaborate on your 2 -seemingly - major points, which are not clear at all?

Then we agree. Strong charges means forcing people to run them or loose. So lets get rid of them all imo.

One major thing, pets don't chase through stealth here, the patch level you refer to had pets chasing through stealth.
Stealth in NF had MoS, without it you moved slow and with it you could see stealthers easier. Thus you could have a archer pop stealth groups.
SL pots only works if you are very close to stealther, and like charges they are damn expensive, roughly 50g/charge.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:44 AM by Sepplord
i never understood why they nerfed buffcharges because it lead to musthave-charging but left in MHB-charges...
Was there a discussion/statement regarding that or could it simply be an oversight?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:19 AM by Turano
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:44 AM
i never understood why they nerfed buffcharges because it lead to musthave-charging but left in MHB-charges...
Was there a discussion/statement regarding that or could it simply be an oversight?
There were many discussions, 2 official thread with 50 and 44 pages full of discussion where that points were raised pretty loud and often.
So unless the devs did not follow the discussion at all, and I don't believe that, it just can not be an oversight.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:03 AM by Taniquetil
Just to be clear on my list.

Most light tanks who spec solely for solo and wait to dump all RA's on a fight and then just hang around near the keep again til they're up will win, and given the current lack of soloers generally most always have their RA's up, so its a tough one. It leaves very little choice for a fun balanced fight, which bores the tanks as they feel like they get run over by full grps a lot because no sin will fight them, and the sin is bored because they cant destealth because the tank will just add on a fight. This leads to stealthzergs which piss everyone off and the circle of madness continues.

Unfortunately that leaves very little for sins to battle since its more and more the case, that coupled with just permanently untouchable classes means very slim range of fun fights available. Win or lose.

Define fun... a close battle that can go either way when played right.
Ref these fights for example:
1:50 - Down to the very last HP, toe to toe, both characters did everything they could - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=1m50s
4:47 - Again here, to the wire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=4m47s
5:18 - Here, very close match, a few parries or evades different and the fight goes another way. Equally if he hadnt purged the stun from Backstab if would have been different i guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=5m18s
9:51 - a loss, a very close one. Still GREAT fun. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=9m51s

What is being mentioned is that PA feels weak currently.
See examples here where despite getting PA'd I fairly easily come back and win. and yes, this is currently the meta, i've had this done to me, so much so that using the full PA chain currently feels like a negative. Backstab feels strangely like a smarter choice most of the time. A PA should be more punishing than that for all classes.
PA'd... still win: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=6m35s
PA'd... still win no purge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=3m58s

Many more of high RR Bd's facetanking it and Necros just laugh at a PA currently, so yeah, bit shit.

Solutions: Increase PA damage, and or make it ignore ablative charges (current Meta)
Decrease PD effectiveness on BD's and or make lifetap affected by disease or make the heals from pets even less effective when BD is diseased, dunno, some options.
Balance necros.
Increase timers on IP/Purge(make it higher across the entire chain, affects sneaks too)/ST etc, even to 15min
SM - tough, but reduce blockrate of pet based on WS or debuffs, i dunno its a weird one, im stumped there, luckily the best SM out there likes me and wont fuck me over haha.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:12 AM by Sepplord
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:19 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:44 AM
i never understood why they nerfed buffcharges because it lead to musthave-charging but left in MHB-charges...
Was there a discussion/statement regarding that or could it simply be an oversight?
There were many discussions, 2 official thread with 50 and 44 pages full of discussion where that points were raised pretty loud and often.
So unless the devs did not follow the discussion at all, and I don't believe that, it just can not be an oversight.

yeah i think i worded it badly that it is easily misunderstood...
i meant an actual adressment of the topic MHB-charge still being there from the staff when the other changes got announced and explained thoroughly

i remember reading a comment mentioning MHBs here and there but can't remember if that got into the focus at any time
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:35 AM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:03 AM
Solutions: Increase PA damage, and or make it ignore ablative charges (current Meta)
Decrease PD effectiveness on BD's and or make lifetap affected by disease or make the heals from pets even less effective when BD is diseased, dunno, some options.
Balance necros.
Increase timers on IP/Purge(make it higher across the entire chain, affects sneaks too)/ST etc, even to 15min
SM - tough, but reduce blockrate of pet based on WS or debuffs, i dunno its a weird one, im stumped there, luckily the best SM out there likes me and wont fuck me over haha.

I like how your suggestions both suggest getting buffed, but also sacrificing stuff. Might be sacrifice others make, but guess a sacrifice is whats important here.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:41 AM by inoeth
ate PA from NS yesterday: 600 dmg on studded ....in addition with con debuff thats around insta 1k dmg..... yeah def increase PA dmg LOL
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:45 AM by Kemoauc
The damage of the poison is not additive with PA.

In your example, you do 600 dmg and then reduce the health of the opponent by 400 leaving him at 200 HP below (debuffed) full health.

If PA only did 300 damage in your example you would have full health after debuff because the con debuff reduces your max health below your current health. In this case the NS could have just hit you with an unstyled melee attack to apply the poison to get the same effect and the entire damage PA does is for nothing if you ignore followup styles.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:49 AM by Sepplord
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:41 AM
ate PA from NS yesterday: 600 dmg on studded ....in addition with con debuff thats around insta 1k dmg..... yeah def increase PA dmg LOL

that'S not how poisondebuff works...and is the whole issue

The debuff takes 400max HP after attackdmg has happened, so the PA basically only did 200dmg. Yeah, that does sound a bit low
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:53 AM by Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:49 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:41 AM
ate PA from NS yesterday: 600 dmg on studded ....in addition with con debuff thats around insta 1k dmg..... yeah def increase PA dmg LOL

that'S not how poisondebuff works...and is the whole issue

The debuff takes 400max HP after attackdmg has happened, so the PA basically only did 200dmg. Yeah, that does sound a bit low

Which is also wrong, the PA did 600, the debuff means IP will only heal 200, unless you purge.
And purge dont give you back the 400 from debuff.
600 damage was done.
200 is possible to heal.

Anyway, the whole PA damage is worthless without talking weaponspeed.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:01 AM by Sepplord
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:53 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:49 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:41 AM
ate PA from NS yesterday: 600 dmg on studded ....in addition with con debuff thats around insta 1k dmg..... yeah def increase PA dmg LOL

that'S not how poisondebuff works...and is the whole issue

The debuff takes 400max HP after attackdmg has happened, so the PA basically only did 200dmg. Yeah, that does sound a bit low

Which is also wrong, the PA did 600, the debuff means IP will only heal 200, unless you purge.
And purge dont give you back the 400 from debuff.
600 damage was done.
200 is possible to heal.

Anyway, the whole PA damage is worthless without talking weaponspeed.

Wouldn't outright say wrong, but probably misworded

PA did do 200dmg MORE than any other attack would be better.

And yes you are right that the debuffed HP cannot be healed, but that doesn't have anything to do with PA.
Weaponspeed also doesn't factor into PA-damage calculations (at least here on phoenix), which is a huge reason why 2H-PA from SBs isn't worth using imo
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:14 AM by Lillebror
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:53 PM
The server is already pretty heavy on stealthers. I don't think it's a good idea to make them even more powerful...

I think Assassins CS opners are way to weak, but at the same time understand very well why they dont get fixed. God an everyone play an assassin. My normal melee dps seems right but its devastating when you hit for 100ish depends on target and get hit back with crush for 2-300.
As is i think +10, 0, -10 is to big. Think they could make it +5 to-5 instead.

And make dw classes possible to spec i to dw chance.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:23 AM by Taniquetil
Druth wrote: I like how your suggestions both suggest getting buffed, but also sacrificing stuff. Might be sacrifice others make, but guess a sacrifice is whats important here.

Thanks, glad you see that, I try . Like i said, I'm not in for the easy boring win or some power fantasy, just want to have as balanced a game as possible and make it fun diverse for everyone!

Druth wrote: Which is also wrong, the PA did 600, the debuff means IP will only heal 200, unless you purge.
And purge dont give you back the 400 from debuff.
600 damage was done.
200 is possible to heal.

Anyway, the whole PA damage is worthless without talking weaponspeed.

Re this, that's kinda not the point + Ablative will absorb another 150 of that so PA=Condebuff....WHY PA?!?!!. Why PA when you can just let the con debuff do almost exactly the same amount of damage. I've eaten PA's and ended up on 100% life because of the con debuff. That in my opinion indicates a problem with the state of PA currently.

Just Look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=6m27s
6:27 - 4 Crit openers in a row practically.
Health 1 - 85% after PA - leather wearer no ablative.
Health 2 -95% after backstab with a Crit.
Health 3 - 99% after PA (yes go frames at a time and its 99% after PA and less after DD) - And I critted.
Health 4 (me eating PA) - 99/100% after con debuff. LITERALLY POINTLESS PA'ing. So much so I came back and won. After receiving a PA i deserve to lose sin vs sin.... and admittedly I know this, so sometimes i'll let myself eat a PA to have the advantage, and i 100% try to avoid PAing then Creeping deathing in sin vs sin as if i stun I know that will cause me to be at a disadvantage when they most likely purge.

Basically swinging unstyled then DD'ing the enemy equates to the same as a PA currently. LOL WHUUUUUT

Do you agree that a leather wearer should end up at 99% life after being PA'd or a Chain wearer even without ablative should be at 99% after a PA?

Honestly? Being PA'd should be something you're scared of and be of consequence.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:31 AM by Sepplord
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:23 AM
(...)


I believe Druth was being sarcastic in the upper part. But that just as a side remark.

The other quote is also written by druth, not by me. I Would appreciate if you could fix that, not that there is anything outrageous written that i don't want attached to my name, but still feels odd Thanks
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:38 AM by Taniquetil
:O I'm British so normally pretty good at detecting sarcasm, since his last part was fairly constructive and co-operative I thought he was being genuine. Since i also suggested losing Ablative protection and nerfing own purge timers to encourage more varied fights.. If i'm wrong then I guess druth maybe wants to just roflstomp people and feel powerful. Who knows.

Fixed, musta deleted the wrong quote part. Cheers!
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:22 AM by jelzinga_EU
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:53 AM
Anyway, the whole PA damage is worthless without talking weaponspeed.

Weapon-speed barely matters for PA-damage as it only affects the base (unstyled) damage and not the rest.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:44 AM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:22 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:53 AM
Anyway, the whole PA damage is worthless without talking weaponspeed.

Weapon-speed barely matters for PA-damage as it only affects the base (unstyled) damage and not the rest.

I'd say it still matters if we want to determine if it's high or low, but what ever.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:38 AM
:O I'm British so normally pretty good at detecting sarcasm, since his last part was fairly constructive and co-operative I thought he was being genuine. Since i also suggested losing Ablative protection and nerfing own purge timers to encourage more varied fights.. If i'm wrong then I guess druth maybe wants to just roflstomp people and feel powerful. Who knows.

Fixed, musta deleted the wrong quote part. Cheers!

You kinda forget assassins would still be left with vanish, which while not being a pure purge, it means you can escape from bad start of fights.
I have caught assassins with purge down, but I still can't kill them in a stun, and so they vanish.
I have been caught with purge down, and vs. assassins with purge up that means I die if they PA/CD or Dragonfang or whatever.


And I really still don't understand why you downplay stealth that much.

If you want to do 1v1's, roll a visi character.
If you want to pick and chose fights, and dodge fg's, roll a stealther.

If you want both, find a different game/server.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM by inoeth
what are you talking about?
my toon has around 1600 hp
the pa did 600 =>1k hp left
debuff takes away 400hp
so you end up with 600 hp left after PA which is around 33% life.... assassins are too weak LOL

now hit IP3 (50%) => 1200/2=600
end up with 66% life and face 35% evade, still many assassins vanish at this point LOL

PA is fkn strong and does need any buff!
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:52 AM by Druth
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM
what are you talking about?
my toon has around 1600 hp
the pa did 600 =>1k hp left
debuff takes away 400hp
so you end up with 600 hp left after PA which is around 33% life.... assassins are too weak LOL

now hit IP3 (50%) => 1200/2=600
end up with 66% life and face 35% evade, still many assassins vanish at this point LOL

PA is fkn strong and does need any buff!

It's not how it works, the debuff happens AFTER the damage.
And debuff only affects your MAX HP, not your current.

If your max was 1600, and you are at 100%, you'd loose 400 HP.
If your max was 1600, and you were at 1000 HP, you'd loose 0 HP.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:52 AM by Turano
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM
what are you talking about?
my toon has around 1600 hp
the pa did 600 =>1k hp left
debuff takes away 400hp
so you end up with 600 hp left after PA which is around 33% life.... assassins are too weak LOL

now hit IP3 (50%) => 1200/2=600
end up with 66% life and face 35% evade, still many assassins vanish at this point LOL

PA is fkn strong and does need any buff!
great that you still have no idea what you are talking about.
In your example PA did 600 damage, so you are at 1000/1600 HP.
Then debuff hits and takes away 400 of your max hp, now you are at 1000/1200.

qed
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:55 AM by Druth
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:52 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM
what are you talking about?
my toon has around 1600 hp
the pa did 600 =>1k hp left
debuff takes away 400hp
so you end up with 600 hp left after PA which is around 33% life.... assassins are too weak LOL

now hit IP3 (50%) => 1200/2=600
end up with 66% life and face 35% evade, still many assassins vanish at this point LOL

PA is fkn strong and does need any buff!
great that you still have no idea what you are talking about.
In your example PA did 600 damage, so you are at 1000/1600 HP.
Then debuff hits and takes away 400 of your max hp, now you are at 1000/1200.

qed

You beat me in explaining that... the [current]/[max] thing describes it better.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:01 PM by jelzinga_EU
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:44 AM
I'd say it still matters if we want to determine if it's high or low, but what ever.

I said barely. This is because in the perf-calculation you get a flat-out 9xCS-spec on your cap-damage which contributes a lot more than the difference in unstyled-damage (unless you're CS is really low).

In practical situations (e.g. fully buffed, real target, 60~ish CS-spec) a perf with a 2.9 vs a 4.2 1H is less than 50 points lower, hardly a game-breaker.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:09 PM by Druth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:01 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:44 AM
I'd say it still matters if we want to determine if it's high or low, but what ever.

I said barely. This is because in the perf-calculation you get a flat-out 9xCS-spec on your cap-damage which contributes a lot more than the difference in unstyled-damage (unless you're CS is really low).

In practical situations (e.g. fully buffed, real target, 60~ish CS-spec) a perf with a 2.9 vs a 4.2 1H is less than 50 points lower, hardly a game-breaker.

But I assume all classes are affected by this then, just that styles with high style multiplier is affected more?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:12 PM by Turano
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:09 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:01 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:44 AM
I'd say it still matters if we want to determine if it's high or low, but what ever.

I said barely. This is because in the perf-calculation you get a flat-out 9xCS-spec on your cap-damage which contributes a lot more than the difference in unstyled-damage (unless you're CS is really low).

In practical situations (e.g. fully buffed, real target, 60~ish CS-spec) a perf with a 2.9 vs a 4.2 1H is less than 50 points lower, hardly a game-breaker.

But I assume all classes are affected by this then, just that styles with high style multiplier is affected more?
the problem is that PA and BS don't really have groth rates, the calculation has alwaysbeen a bit wacky
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:16 PM by inoeth
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:52 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM
what are you talking about?
my toon has around 1600 hp
the pa did 600 =>1k hp left
debuff takes away 400hp
so you end up with 600 hp left after PA which is around 33% life.... assassins are too weak LOL

now hit IP3 (50%) => 1200/2=600
end up with 66% life and face 35% evade, still many assassins vanish at this point LOL

PA is fkn strong and does need any buff!
great that you still have no idea what you are talking about.
In your example PA did 600 damage, so you are at 1000/1600 HP.
Then debuff hits and takes away 400 of your max hp, now you are at 1000/1200.

qed

if that was the case i would end up with 83% hp after PA, which is not the case... explain that einstein
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:24 PM by Taniquetil
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM
what are you talking about?
my toon has around 1600 hp
the pa did 600 =>1k hp left
debuff takes away 400hp
so you end up with 600 hp left after PA which is around 33% life.... assassins are too weak LOL

now hit IP3 (50%) => 1200/2=600
end up with 66% life and face 35% evade, still many assassins vanish at this point LOL

PA is fkn strong and does need any buff!

Dude as the others have said that is 100% not how it works. See reference here.

*If your math was correct a 1600hp assassin would have 30-40% life left after a PA. Video proof x4 that you're incorrect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=6m27s
6:27 - 4 Crit openers in a row practically.
Health 1 - 85% after PA - leather wearer no ablative. (PA for 600, condebuff 400, but leaves at 85% life.)
Health 2 -95% after backstab with a Crit. (condebuff just overwrites the damage that BS did)
Health 3 - 99% after PA (yes go frames at a time and its 99% after PA and less after DD) - And I critted. - Condebuff completely overwrites PA damage.
Health 4 (me eating PA) - 99/100% after PA+ con debuff. E.g. I could have just been tickled unstyled and been at the same amount of health.

The PA does as much or less damage than a con debuff, therefore it is a waste of time currently. If a PA isnt something to fear then you get situations of zerkers sitting on a bridge with all their timers up begging to be PA'd. That to me feels silly at least.

Do you not want a fight where the assasin's strength (stealth opener) would give them the upper hand, but not impossible to come back against, but then missing it would give the zerker(for example) back a heavy lead, basically a guaranteed loss for the sin. Not "PA me i dont care i'll still destroy you"?

I'd argue if more balance was found you'd have more sins attacking tanks and trying it, therefore less of them with vanish up when you find them, therefore a richer mix of wins and losses for both sides, and a greater enjoyment of the game for all.

Druth wrote: If you want to do 1v1's, roll a visi character.
If you want to pick and chose fights, and dodge fg's, roll a stealther.

If you want both, find a different game/server.

So you just want to roflstomp stealthers even if they get PA off on you and stick to rock paper scissors then? And your answer rather than a solve is to just leave the game? That's a shame.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:36 PM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:24 PM
So you just want to roflstomp stealthers even if they get PA off on you and stick to rock paper scissors then? And your answer rather than a solve is to just leave the game? That's a shame.

So you just want to pick fights you can win, with no risk of ever being found by someone that can kill you?

I am sorry, but yes. If you can chose the fight, and I play well, I should win every single time because I can't pick my fights, and I don't have a magic Houdini RA that allows me to escape any bad fight.

But it's hopeless to debate this, you don't think stealth is a big deal, and yet you somehow play a stealther, on a server where 20-30% ALL the time plays stealther (when around 15% should be), and where stealthers manage to take 20% of top rp earners every week.
Cry me a river, stealth is broken OP here, the reason being you get run down constantly without it, and the reason why you don't have any targets is because the classes you can 1v1 safely funny enough don't like running solo, because stealthers are everywhere.

I really can't be polite about it as long as you wont acknowledge stealth is sweet as F... in this Meta on this server.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:38 PM by Sepplord
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:09 PM
But I assume all classes are affected by this then, just that styles with high style multiplier is affected more?

No, all other styles factor weaponspeed in, only PA has a calculation that doesn't consider equipped weaponspeed (but still influences swingspeed...which imo is VERY unintuitive and wonky).

If you want to do 1v1's, roll a visi character.
If you want to pick and chose fights, and dodge fg's, roll a stealther.

are you serious druth? it's like you are a different person in this discussion.

Visible characters have the huge benefit of being groupable because of their group-utility. If we take Thane for example, he has guard, and a few other abilities (that he also uses in 1vs1 but) that scale up in bigger encounters. While stealther do not have anything that makes them attractive for a group (Which is fine, they have stealth).

You say stealth is so strong (and i agree that it is a very powerful tool) but what is it supposed to be used for, if not for 1vs1? Because the scenarios that are left (adding fights, killing levelers, killing people that are fleeing from a zerg fight) all can be done by an archer much more reliably.

What exactly do you think is an assassins job then?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:51 PM by Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:38 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:09 PM
But I assume all classes are affected by this then, just that styles with high style multiplier is affected more?

No, all other styles factor weaponspeed in, only PA has a calculation that doesn't consider equipped weaponspeed (but still influences swingspeed...which imo is VERY unintuitive and wonky).

If you want to do 1v1's, roll a visi character.
If you want to pick and chose fights, and dodge fg's, roll a stealther.

are you serious druth? it's like you are a different person in this discussion.

Visible characters have the huge benefit of being groupable because of their group-utility. If we take Thane for example, he has guard, and a few other abilities (that he also uses in 1vs1 but) that scale up in bigger encounters. While stealther do not have anything that makes them attractive for a group (Which is fine, they have stealth).

You say stealth is so strong (and i agree that it is a very powerful tool) but what is it supposed to be used for, if not for 1vs1? Because the scenarios that are left (adding fights, killing levelers, killing people that are fleeing from a zerg fight) all can be done by an archer much more reliably.

What exactly do you think is an assassins job then?

Yes I am serious, if you want broken stealth, live with being underdog in 1v1 fights vs other melee. It's insanity to think it should be any different.

And no group outside BG zergs runs thanes, unless it's a guildy that insists on it. Their nuke is not part of cold debuff, and their melee is pitiful.


Stealth population is saturated on the server, and I am fairly certain that if assassins can compete with the few visi solo classes that run around, they will pack up as well and join stealth pop. If my thane started to loose 50/50 of sin fights, I'd switch instantly.
Try to convince me that stealth pop won't increase.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:56 PM by Sepplord
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:51 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:38 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:09 PM
But I assume all classes are affected by this then, just that styles with high style multiplier is affected more?

No, all other styles factor weaponspeed in, only PA has a calculation that doesn't consider equipped weaponspeed (but still influences swingspeed...which imo is VERY unintuitive and wonky).

If you want to do 1v1's, roll a visi character.
If you want to pick and chose fights, and dodge fg's, roll a stealther.

are you serious druth? it's like you are a different person in this discussion.

Visible characters have the huge benefit of being groupable because of their group-utility. If we take Thane for example, he has guard, and a few other abilities (that he also uses in 1vs1 but) that scale up in bigger encounters. While stealther do not have anything that makes them attractive for a group (Which is fine, they have stealth).

You say stealth is so strong (and i agree that it is a very powerful tool) but what is it supposed to be used for, if not for 1vs1? Because the scenarios that are left (adding fights, killing levelers, killing people that are fleeing from a zerg fight) all can be done by an archer much more reliably.

What exactly do you think is an assassins job then?

Yes I am serious, if you want broken stealth, live with being underdog in 1v1 fights vs other melee. It's insanity to think it should be any different.

And no group outside BG zergs runs thanes, unless it's a guildy that insists on it. Their nuke is not part of cold debuff, and their melee is pitiful.


Stealth population is saturated on the server, and I am fairly certain that if assassins can compete with the few visi solo classes that run around, they will pack up as well and join stealth pop. If my thane started to loose 50/50 of sin fights, I'd switch instantly.
Try to convince me that stealth pop won't increase.

You are dodging the question:
define an assasin job in the current state of the game

i have already agreed i don't think a combat strength buff would not be a good idea, but i cannot follow your arguments (besides the population one, which has it's point).
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:57 PM by Taniquetil
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:36 PM
So you just want to pick fights you can win, with no risk of ever being found by someone that can kill you?

I am sorry, but yes. If you can chose the fight, and I play well, I should win every single time because I can't pick my fights, and I don't have a magic Houdini RA that allows me to escape any bad fight.

No, let me quote myself again. I'd argue that you're playing badly if you're regularly allowing yourself to be PA'd. and if you're wanting to be PA'd because it feels irrelevant than that itself is a problem.

Taniquetil wrote: a close battle that can go either way when played right.

Taniquetil wrote: Ideal scenario, BALANCE and some more powerful class traits but with a challenge/difficulty not impossible to overcome via skillcap some classes still have the upper hand, but with the right skill/rng can be overcome by the underdog, therefore making trying to solo said strong character rewarding if you win, but more likely than just flat out ignoring them. <--- {EDIT: This sentence means you probably get more Rp's and more fun fights.}

Add risk reward back in to landing/missing PA's when classes run around and dont give a shit if they get PA'd, or just stand there and wait for it, you know theres a problem.

Straight fight, you win 100%, I accept that, if I fuck up the engagement or get caught.... I'm dead. and i dont want that to change. If i get PA off it should level the playing field to a close toe to toe fight, currently it doesnt at all. I see tanks standing on bridges with a big fucking sign saying "PA ME SEE WHAT HAPPENS I AM SO MIGHTY WITH ALL MY RA's UP". That is boring for EVERYONE.

So i'll say it one more time. I want a risk reward on both sides for a fun fight and challenges for both sides. You should still win the lions share, but a 100% win rate that you want means that you will get zero fights, therefore be bored, therefore always have people vanish on you, because people refuse to engage for such long periods of time that everyones RA's are up and therefore you get vanished on.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:01 PM by Druth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:56 PM
You are dodging the question:
define an assasin job in the current state of the game

i have already agreed i don't think a combat strength buff would not be a good idea, but i cannot follow your arguments (besides the population one, which has it's point).

Define a thanes job?
What is this?

Assassins have no targets because of the Meta, is the solution to buff them so they can kill even more classes solo?
Or is the solution to maybe think what stealth does to people that might want to solo, but have no way of doing it.

I used to solo on my RM, was crazy fun being snuffed in 10 secs. So I changed to a class that assassins couldn't do that to, and lo and behold, fewer people out they can kill.

If stealth was 10% of the pop, instead of 25% (which it is as I write this), then I think more would solo on classes sins can kill.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:03 PM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:57 PM
Straight fight, you win 100%, I accept that, if I fuck up the engagement or get caught.... I'm dead. and i dont want that to change. If i get PA off it should level the playing field to a close toe to toe fight, currently it doesnt at all. I see tanks standing on bridges with a big fucking "PA ME SEE WHAT HAPPENS I AM SO MIGHTY WITH ALL MY RA's UP". That is boring for EVERYONE.


I had a RR8 infil /beckon me, I come he fudges PA, I slam, he purge, I bring him to 20%, he vanishes.

"That is boring for EVERYONE."

Had he got the upper hand, what would I have done?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:04 PM by Druth
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:03 PM
I had a RR8 infil /beckon me, I come he fudges PA, I slam, he purge, I bring him to 20%, he vanishes.

"That is boring for EVERYONE."

Had he got the upper hand, what would I have done?

Sorry, I found my own answer after long hours of studying DaoC, I would have died.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:05 PM by Druth
Keep in mind, I am all for nerfing npc archer guards. Everyone HATES them!
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:10 PM by thirian24
Wow, Tani making some amazing points in here along with many others. Thank you for that, maybe the DEVs will look into the CS line, but doubtful.

Early on in my sneak RvR time, is try to kill Necros, Friars, SMs, BDs. Necros and Friars absolutely destroyed me. Friars would walk away with 85% life still. I'd keep trying tho. Even after landing full CS chain.. still owned. So now I avoid them. Which has led to Friars trying to look like casters, and casters trying to look like Friars. Pretty much all Britons are off the table.

I don't even mess with Necros. Its laughable.

Early on I had luck with BDs if I landed full CS chain, now it's a rare win for me. I'm not sure what changed, maybe they are all PD9 now, idk.

I think I've only ever killed one SM and idk how the hell I got that lucky. The rest of the time the pet stun locks me every single swing.

So, where does that leave me for fights, tanks, light tanks, archers and other sneaks. Casters are off the table unless they are an Avalonian.. which is hysterical that sneaks shy away from casters as that should be an easy target for us.

As for the stealth being strong, idk how tf he does it but Dirtyrandy finds me all the fking time. Always.

So yeah, I really wish the Devs would look into the CS line, it's pitiful. Like Tani says, when casters willingly stand toe to toe with a sneak and others stand fake afking waiting for a perf.. something needs to be changed there. That's complete BS.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:16 PM by Taniquetil
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:03 PM
I had a RR8 infil /beckon me, I come he fudges PA, I slam, he purge, I bring him to 20%, he vanishes.

"That is boring for EVERYONE."

Had he got the upper hand, what would I have done?

Again, if the fight is more balanced in general people will attack you more and wont have vanish up all the time. Currently. And I freely admit this, i generally only attack a heavy tank who is semi high RR or above when I have vanish up, because 99% of me knows i'll lose, even with PA, but I want to test it out of curiosity.

What I'm saying is I want to fight you and have fun, but 100% loss rate isnt fun, add a bit more to the mix both sides and I guarantee you more people will attack you, of those who attack you more of them wont have vanish up, and you'll end up more satisfied at the end.

Otherwise I guess i may just occasionally PA you with Vanish up, know I'm going to lose, wait for you to dump your RA's and then vanish..... because thats my best hope right now. I then come back before your timers are up and finish you off or you go back to the keep and come out again when your timers are up. I'm asking for a more fun/better solution for everyone.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:17 PM by Kemoauc
Nildain has put it very well earlier in this thread.

The people that run solo will always pick classes that beat assassins a good amount of time because otherwise they will get farmed not only by fgs, smallmans but also by the huge number of assassins out there. Nobody is going to do that to himself. In that sense assassins always self regulate the solo scene in a way that looks like they lose to everything but that's just because they prohibit every class that is weaker to run solo at all. What do you think is the reason there is no solo casters around other than the broken ones? You guessed correctly: because they get farmed by assassins. A solo cabalist would win quite a bit against visible solos but just dies against anything that closes the gap which assassins do. Thus, nobody plays it.

Make assassins stronger you end up with even less solo visibles and fight among yourself even more.

Stop using necros, bds and sms as examples for weak assassins because these classes are broken and no class with physical damage beats them. If anything these classes need to get toned down instead of buffing assassins.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:34 PM by Taniquetil
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:17 PM
Nildain has put it very well earlier in this thread.

The people that run solo will always pick classes that beat assassins a good amount of time because otherwise they will get farmed not only by fgs, smallmans but also by the huge number of assassins out there. Nobody is going to do that to himself. In that sense assassins always self regulate the solo scene in a way that looks like they lose to everything but that's just because they prohibit every class that is weaker to run solo at all.

Make assassins stronger you end up with even less solo visibles and fight among yourself even more.

Stop using necros, bds and sms as examples for weak assassins because these classes are broken and no class with physical damage beats them. If anything these classes need to get toned down instead of buffing assassins.

Nicely put. I agree, equally I would like to see there be a small chance that assassins could win a fight against some of the tanks, would mean that we could fight each other, you win almost always, keeps you happy, but keeps us looking for an option to attack you occasionally.

I stand by PA needing a buff though, when it gets eradicated by a con debuff, something is wrong Plus, I dont think making you guys need to be aware of/cautious of being PA'd is necessarily a bad thing.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:36 PM by Anelyn77
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:17 PM
Nildain has put it very well earlier in this thread.

The people that run solo will always pick classes that beat assassins a good amount of time because otherwise they will get farmed not only by fgs, smallmans but also by the huge number of assassins out there. Nobody is going to do that to himself. In that sense assassins always self regulate the solo scene in a way that looks like they lose to everything but that's just because they prohibit every class that is weaker to run solo at all.

Make assassins stronger you end up with even less solo visibles and fight among yourself even more.

Stop using necros, bds and sms as examples for weak assassins because these classes are broken and no class with physical damage beats them. If anything these classes need to get toned down instead of buffing assassins.

Just experimented the SM pet intercept today on my NS. 6 styled hits, all with OH hits as well, intercepted by pet. This is BS. It should be 30% chance to intercept at best, not 100%. Will make appeal for bug and a thread as well (will also log on my mid sm and have a guildie beat on me for 10 minutes and collect log info of how much pet intercepts vs dual wield).

/Bnotashamed + Aicha
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:37 PM by Sepplord
let us kill casters in a zergfight, or at least solo-casters on ramparts without getting 100% added through walls from a bunch of guards that there is no way to get rid of besides jumping off and running a few thousand units.

Define a thanes job?

From my noob-group-perspective it would be, protecting casters/support with guard/slam/snares just like a warrior does, while interuppting a little bit at the same time, or interuppting alot coupled with decent dmg while staying near the targets you are supposed to support.
On my warrior i am always torn between helping my savage, or defending my healer...but that's a purely smallman perspective and in a fullgroup it apparently doesnt work like that if thanes aren't grouped. At least you are welcome in BG groups, can't say the same about assassins. I haven't even considered trying that out...because what would be my job there?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:38 PM by Saroi
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:57 PM
Straight fight, you win 100%, I accept that, if I fuck up the engagement or get caught.... I'm dead. and i dont want that to change. If i get PA off it should level the playing field to a close toe to toe fight, currently it doesnt at all. I see tanks standing on bridges with a big fucking "PA ME SEE WHAT HAPPENS I AM SO MIGHTY WITH ALL MY RA's UP". That is boring for EVERYONE.

So i'll say it one more time. I want a risk reward on both sides for a fun fight and challenges for both sides. You should still win the lions share, but a 100% win rate that you want means that you will get zero fights, therefore be bored, therefore always have people vanish on you, because people refuse to engage for such long periods of time that everyones RA's are up and therefore you get vanished on.

Well this is not just a PA problem. As I have stated in other posts this is also because of the current situation on Phoenix. You are a NS and Blades specced. And because as a NS you will get destroyed by going pierce vs. the other Assassins so you are forced to go Blades. At this point you do 20% less damage vs. most visibles on Midgard and 10% less vs. Albion visibles. Simply because Thrust has the better damage vs. most of the armor like Chain(Which is with cloth the most armor around). And if you take the other way around, every friggin Midgard viking is hammer, meaning he will have a damage difference of 20% by avoiding axe/sword.

If you would go Thrust you would have way better chances vs. visibles like Thanes. The only problem is you can surrender to other stealthers because they will kill you. It really is a sacrafice you have to make as a NS here on Phoenix, because you can dodge visibles but you cannot dodge other stealthers.

It is more or less the same with the state of Inf's. I found it easier to fight NS/Ranger with slash then going Thrust and try my Luck vs. SB's. You just get slaughtered unless you sacraficed some Luri's to the random God so he will favour you. But even with slash, if SB get damage add and other stuff up, which it not affected by your armor advantage, you will have a hard time because you also have 220hp less.

Basically you need to go down with the armor bonus from 10% to 5%. CD lines could use a change/buff for a decent anytimer. It is also interesting to see, that SB and Berserker share the same high growth rate on LA styles just like Inf and Merc share the same growth rate on DW. NS however has lower growth rate than the BM in CD.

SB/Berserker
Snowsquall: 0,95
Icy Brilliance: 1,1
Aurora Borealis: 1,25

BM:
Ice Storm: 0,77
Tempest: 1,00
Supernova: 1,25

NS;
Ice Storm: 0,68
Tempest: 0,88
Supernova: 0,90
Fri 19 Jul 2019 2:27 PM by inoeth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 12:24 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 11:48 AM
what are you talking about?
my toon has around 1600 hp
the pa did 600 =>1k hp left
debuff takes away 400hp
so you end up with 600 hp left after PA which is around 33% life.... assassins are too weak LOL

now hit IP3 (50%) => 1200/2=600
end up with 66% life and face 35% evade, still many assassins vanish at this point LOL

PA is fkn strong and does need any buff!

Dude as the others have said that is 100% not how it works. See reference here.

*If your math was correct a 1600hp assassin would have 30-40% life left after a PA. Video proof x4 that you're incorrect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uekQdzynBA&t=6m27s
6:27 - 4 Crit openers in a row practically.
Health 1 - 85% after PA - leather wearer no ablative. (PA for 600, condebuff 400, but leaves at 85% life.)
Health 2 -95% after backstab with a Crit. (condebuff just overwrites the damage that BS did)
Health 3 - 99% after PA (yes go frames at a time and its 99% after PA and less after DD) - And I critted. - Condebuff completely overwrites PA damage.
Health 4 (me eating PA) - 99/100% after PA+ con debuff. E.g. I could have just been tickled unstyled and been at the same amount of health.

The PA does as much or less damage than a con debuff, therefore it is a waste of time currently. If a PA isnt something to fear then you get situations of zerkers sitting on a bridge with all their timers up begging to be PA'd. That to me feels silly at least.

Do you not want a fight where the assasin's strength (stealth opener) would give them the upper hand, but not impossible to come back against, but then missing it would give the zerker(for example) back a heavy lead, basically a guaranteed loss for the sin. Not "PA me i dont care i'll still destroy you"?

I'd argue if more balance was found you'd have more sins attacking tanks and trying it, therefore less of them with vanish up when you find them, therefore a richer mix of wins and losses for both sides, and a greater enjoyment of the game for all.

Druth wrote: If you want to do 1v1's, roll a visi character.
If you want to pick and chose fights, and dodge fg's, roll a stealther.

If you want both, find a different game/server.

So you just want to roflstomp stealthers even if they get PA off on you and stick to rock paper scissors then? And your answer rather than a solve is to just leave the game? That's a shame.

07:07 after PA on the SB => sb is at 57% not 85 or other BS
then CD and SB is at 40%
totally underpowered LOL
Fri 19 Jul 2019 2:36 PM by Sindralor
If you use your eyes on the chatlog, you can see how the ws/con debuff gets resisted
(or just look at the white resist effect over his head )

it's also a slash perf vs sb with a 200 crit and offhand swing
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:01 PM by Turano
Sindralor wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 2:36 PM
If you use your eyes on the chatlog, you can see how the ws/con debuff gets resisted
(or just look at the white resist effect over his head )

it's also a slash perf vs sb with a 200 crit and offhand swing
No logic you could befuddle him
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:08 PM by Taniquetil
inoeth wrote: 07:07 after PA on the SB => sb is at 57% not 85 or other BS
then CD and SB is at 40%
totally underpowered LOL

I also crit with my PA for another 200, but you know, ignore my 4x valid arguments with video evidence before and create your own narrative. Thats cool too I guess.

PA 483 (again, proving that its negated by Con debuff) <-- against a class weak to my damage type. Essentially meaning my PA hit him for 83dmg on top of the con debuff.... 83. 74 dmg if he was neutral or 66 if he was resistant. and that is as a LEATHER wearer.
*he resists the con debuff*
Crit - 203
Hit with offhand - 68
Lifetap proc goes off - 62

So yes my PA with a lucky crit and a proc hit him for 816 on a leather wearer 10% weak to my weapon type, and i swung with both weapons, and a proc went off...

Equally do you now at least understand that con debuff and PA do not stack?

I'll post logs later.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:28 PM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:16 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 1:03 PM
I had a RR8 infil /beckon me, I come he fudges PA, I slam, he purge, I bring him to 20%, he vanishes.

"That is boring for EVERYONE."

Had he got the upper hand, what would I have done?

Again, if the fight is more balanced in general people will attack you more and wont have vanish up all the time. Currently. And I freely admit this, i generally only attack a heavy tank who is semi high RR or above when I have vanish up, because 99% of me knows i'll lose, even with PA, but I want to test it out of curiosity.

What I'm saying is I want to fight you and have fun, but 100% loss rate isnt fun, add a bit more to the mix both sides and I guarantee you more people will attack you, of those who attack you more of them wont have vanish up, and you'll end up more satisfied at the end.

Otherwise I guess i may just occasionally PA you with Vanish up, know I'm going to lose, wait for you to dump your RA's and then vanish..... because thats my best hope right now. I then come back before your timers are up and finish you off or you go back to the keep and come out again when your timers are up. I'm asking for a more fun/better solution for everyone.

I forgot to add that the fight ended up with me dying to a mix of alb smallman and hib zerg.
Not his fault, but he survived got rps, I died and got nothing. That is the power of stealth (technically vanish).
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:35 PM by Turano
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:28 PM
I forgot to add that the fight ended up with me dying to a mix of alb smallman and hib zerg.
Not his fault, but he survived got rps, I died and got nothing. That is the power of stealth (technically vanish).
lets delete vanish and IP from the game. deal?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:54 PM by Druth
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:35 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:28 PM
I forgot to add that the fight ended up with me dying to a mix of alb smallman and hib zerg.
Not his fault, but he survived got rps, I died and got nothing. That is the power of stealth (technically vanish).
lets delete vanish and IP from the game. deal?

Deal, then I'd prob switch to my BD. Would love to not have sins vanish.
Don't think it would make sins better, because people would likely stop running solo tanks, but whatever rocks your boat.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 4:37 PM by Turano
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:54 PM
Deal, then I'd prob switch to my BD. Would love to not have sins vanish.
Don't think it would make sins better, because people would likely stop running solo tanks, but whatever rocks your boat.
wait, so without I-win button you won't play the class anymore? Now if that's not hypocritical of you
Fri 19 Jul 2019 4:39 PM by Druth
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 4:37 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 3:54 PM
Deal, then I'd prob switch to my BD. Would love to not have sins vanish.
Don't think it would make sins better, because people would likely stop running solo tanks, but whatever rocks your boat.
wait, so without I-win button you won't play the class anymore? Now if that's not hypocritical of you

Not at all, very in line with my standards.
I want to play a class that can solo, and is not a stealther. I avoided skald/BD because everyone were playing them.
Without IP I would be a fool not to switch to my BD, which was my first char anyway.

Do you still want to trade vanish for IP? That was what you suggested. Do you think it would improve your situation, or were you bluffing?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 4:46 PM by Turano
no, I'ld be fine with getting rid of IP and vanish. Question is how the server would survive the outrage
Fri 19 Jul 2019 5:22 PM by Mavella
The only good thing about PA currently is it kills the enemy MHB in the one hit rather than having the first 2-3 swings halved.

One if the other things making tanks extremely strong is their ability to stack a lot of parry/block to fairly absurd levels. Parry isn't halved by dual wield defense pen bonus of course so that's easily the best thing to stack fot fighting sins. I fought a merc last night 25% block chance, 27% parry 5% evade chance. He didn't need to flip to shield between swings but if he did I'd have less than a 50% chance to hit him lol. Those that do flip benefit from a lot of extra damage while maintaining most of their tankiness. The ability to flip back and forth without there being some penalty or lock in to make it a meaningful choice is ridiculous.

Sins don't really have the tools to penetrate those defenses with the cut defense pen bonus here and stacking mainstat doesn't offer nearly enough weaponskill to make a dent. A smart tank is gonna pump parry and toss a few into MoParry and laugh with their 30%++ parry chance no matter what weapon setup they have equipped. Do the shield flip between swings and enjoy 50%+ defense chance. Best sins can hope for is 25-30% evade chance with no vialable options to increase it besides stack stats which isn't as remotely as good as the flat %s on MoBlock and MoParry. Dodger would be neat. Anything to increase sin defense besides fucking toughness...

The best bet again vs tanks is to overly rely on non physical damage that doesn't get defense checked. So viper, dot procs, and damage add if you can actually land the swings etc. Disease, kite, and hope you don't get added on.

And let's be honest. Is there a ton of risk involved being a solo visible when 90% are hanging around/coast guarding their own far keep with keep/tower safety or backup generally mere seconds away? It's not like you have to roam like in OF to actually find a fight. Your ONLY threat is literally superior numbers and being too far from your keep to fall back too.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 5:32 PM by Mavella
Also for anyone that has played live recently can sins compete with tanks there or do solo specced tanks just throttle them there as well?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 5:40 PM by Campjr
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 5:32 PM
Also for anyone that has played live recently can sins compete with tanks there or do solo specced tanks just throttle them there as well?

I played assassins on live pretty late and yes they could compete. They added abs debuffs to CS spec line. Pincer, hamstring, leaper, rib sep, ripper all had abs debuffs that stacked. Still was challenging fights and no a sure win but definitely helped the situation.

From patch 1.82 -2005

Critical Strike Style Changes Â- A new stackable ABS debuff has been added to the Critical Strike line in the following manner: 8 Pincer - Pre-req: To side of target - Effect: ABS decrease 1%
29 Leaper - Pre-req: Hamstring - Effect: ABS decrease 2%
44 Rib Separation - Pre-req: Leaper - Effect: ABS decrease 5% Â
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:12 PM by Mavella
Those would certainly help but with no way to stack additional defense on a sin I've had fights with tanks get decided by a few 2h swings and be over in 20 seconds or less. I always find it comical when I'm supposed to be a slippery evasive archetype and just eat 4 300-400 damage 2h swings in a row. RIP. Evade 7 ftw!
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:18 PM by Turano
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:12 PM
Those would certainly help but with no way to stack additional defense on a sin I've had fights with tanks get decided by a few 2h swings and be over in 20 seconds or less. I always find it comical when I'm supposed to be a slippery evasive archetype and just eat 4 300-400 damage 2h swings in a row. RIP. Evade 7 ftw!
yeah missing dodger combined with nerfed defence penetration is tough. combine that with nerfed repoison mechanic and you know why assas have a tough standing against any other meele
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:19 PM by Kemoauc
Try the Yroniel approach:
- get toughness 9 instead of offensive Ra's
- get dmg add charge
- open/use dehaste
- don't stun so they don't purge. if they purge the debuffs then stun
- either use debuff or dot weapons

report back how fights against other melees went
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:24 PM by Campjr
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:19 PM
Try the Yroniel approach:
- get toughness 9 instead of offensive Ra's
- get dmg add charge
- open/use dehaste
- don't stun so they don't purge. if they purge the debuffs then stun
- either use debuff or dot weapons

report back how fights against other melees went


Well you are backing our point that the CS line is broken. Do everything outside what an assassin was designed to do becauses it’s in a current broken assassin state. Turn into a mini zerker/merc/Bm to have a shot....
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:28 PM by Kemoauc
I'm telling you what the current meta allows and what is possibly going to work while you fantasize what should be changed so that you have a chance.

People complaining about dodger not being there when they can get +20/25% hp from toughness which is guaranteed and not random...
People complaining about not doing dmg but speccing aug str, mopain and using legion healcharge infight while you can probably get 3-4 more hits out with the additional hp you have if you go another approach and do way more dmg with each hit too...

Edit: this is obviously for fighting these pesky unbeatable tanks. Because there is no need for more dmg to beat any caster because you roll over them already. And please don't start talking about the op casters again.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:41 PM by Campjr
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:28 PM
I'm telling you what the current meta allows and what is possibly going to work while you fantasize what should be changed so that you have a chance.

People complaining about dodger not being there when they can get +20/25% hp from toughness which is guaranteed and not random...
People complaining about not doing dmg but speccing aug str, mopain and using legion healcharge infight while you can probably get 3-4 more hits out with the additional hp you have if you go another approach and do way more dmg with each hit too...

Kemy, the top 10% of stealthers have already made these adjustments based on the new "meta". Its the top stealthers in this thread telling you something isnt right. These are the same players that have a min/max personality. But rather than be an assassin, we are now just suppose to outlast everything in an area that its virtually impossible to do. There are only so many places an assassin go for action and as you know its limited to the same areas you go. To tani's point, would you not want to get more fights against assassins that he has a 50/50 shot if he pulls off his stunts? As of right now, your fights are very limited because most assassins will just choose not to take the fight. I dont run Vanish and I could understand the frustration of RA dumping on a sin just to have them vanish. But the current state, the assassin simply has no choice.

The point I think the assassins are trying to make is very simple. We dont want to facetank a tank and be able to win, but we do want to be able to utilize the CS openers,poisons,debuffs, etc and have a better chance.

thats not even touching the absolutely rediculious cost to put together an assassin template that still yields losses but maybe just maybe will get you a chance.

Another example is how crazy tough r6+ rangers are for an assassin. You had to be rank 10 with Physical defense/emptymind on live to dream of doing what they do here.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:45 PM by Mavella
34 points to negate 1 2h swing that I just said did 350-400 damage.

Great investment.

Edit: and there's no risk to using those slow 2h weapons to get those big hits when you flip to shield between swings getting 40-50% combined passive defense chance. All the reward with no downside. Huzzah!
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:50 PM by Druth
Campjr wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:41 PM
Kemy, the top 10% of stealthers have already made these adjustments based on the new "meta". Its the top stealthers in this thread telling you something isnt right. These are the same players that have a min/max personality. But rather than be an assassin, we are now just suppose to outlast everything in an area that its virtually impossible to do. There are only so many places an assassin go for action and as you know its limited to the same areas you go. To tani's point, would you not want to get more fights against assassins that he has a 50/50 shot if he pulls off his stunts? As of right now, your fights are very limited because most assassins will just choose not to take the fight. I dont run Vanish and I could understand the frustration of RA dumping on a sin just to have them vanish. But the current state, the assassin simply has no choice.

The point I think the assassins are trying to make is very simple. We dont want to facetank a tank and be able to win, but we do want to be able to utilize the CS openers,poisons,debuffs, etc and have a better chance.

thats not even touching the absolutely rediculious cost to put together an assassin template that still yields losses but maybe just maybe will get you a chance.

Stealther are the only ones that have choices, the rest take what is served.

Have a better chance against the archtype, tamk, that is supposed to counter you.
The tanks which now together with 2 casters are the only ones who solo, because assassins drove them away from the solo scene.

You killed your main prey because there are to many stealthers. The best solution is to hope the stealth pop drops below 15% and stick it out, eventually the squishy casters will return.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:52 PM by Campjr
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:50 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:41 PM
Kemy, the top 10% of stealthers have already made these adjustments based on the new "meta". Its the top stealthers in this thread telling you something isnt right. These are the same players that have a min/max personality. But rather than be an assassin, we are now just suppose to outlast everything in an area that its virtually impossible to do. There are only so many places an assassin go for action and as you know its limited to the same areas you go. To tani's point, would you not want to get more fights against assassins that he has a 50/50 shot if he pulls off his stunts? As of right now, your fights are very limited because most assassins will just choose not to take the fight. I dont run Vanish and I could understand the frustration of RA dumping on a sin just to have them vanish. But the current state, the assassin simply has no choice.

The point I think the assassins are trying to make is very simple. We dont want to facetank a tank and be able to win, but we do want to be able to utilize the CS openers,poisons,debuffs, etc and have a better chance.

thats not even touching the absolutely rediculious cost to put together an assassin template that still yields losses but maybe just maybe will get you a chance.

Stealther are the only ones that have choices, the rest take what is served.

Have a better chance against the archtype, tamk, that is supposed to counter you.
The tanks which now together with 2 casters are the only ones who solo, because assassins drove them away from the solo scene.

You killed your main prey because there are to many stealthers. The best solution is to hope the stealth pop drops below 15% and stick it out, eventually the squishy casters will return.

I can have better debates with my 8 year old. We clearly get your point that you despise stealthers and dont care to really discuss real issues.

But you are right, we have the choice to pick out 3 classes that hopefully are solo in each realm.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:53 PM by Kemoauc
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:45 PM
34 points to negate 1 2h swing that I just said did 350-400 damage.

Great investment.

Edit: and there's no risk to using those slow 2h weapons to get those big hits when you flip to shield between swings getting 40-50% combined passive defense chance. All the reward with no downside. Huzzah!

Come on at least be realistic. 400 hp will result in an average of 2 additional hits required to kill you because you get additional chances to evade, have some defensive proc etc. There is barely anyone that will hit you for 400 dmg while being debuffed, I do like 270 on favourable armor with a 6.0 weapon.

Also, it's not like you do nothing while you wait for those additional two hits to reach you. You will probably deal more dmg in these 5-6 seconds than any other passive RA would give you for 34 points.

Edit: and now it's suddenly swapping again that is the problem. Do you realize that you swap in a billion weapons during a fight with different poisons on it? I could argue that it's equally ridicolous that you can do that.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:55 PM by Druth
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 5:22 PM
I fought a merc last night 25% block chance, 27% parry 5% evade chance. He didn't need to flip to shield between swings but if he did I'd have less than a 50% chance to hit him lol.

This is actually not easy math, I agree.
But you do not come to the right result, it's a total of 48% chance of either blocking, parrying or evading.
1 - (0.75*0.73*0.95) = 48%

Not that it matters really, fairly close to 50%.

Weapon-swapping should not be as easy, or at least you should get a timer after a swap where you can't swap again.
I fully agree it's idiotic to fight a tank that does it.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:00 PM by Mavella
Yes I swing 3 times and am blocked/parried/evaded on most likely 1 or 2 of them and hit with my mainhand for ONE HUNDRED(!) damage.

I'd rather have combination of dodger and toughness for 34 points if it scaled as hard as MoBlock or MoParry. 15% more evade for 15 points sounds fair right?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:03 PM by Druth
Campjr wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:52 PM
I can have better debates with my 8 year old. We clearly get your point that you despise stealthers and dont care to really discuss real issues.

But you are right, we have the choice to pick out 3 classes that hopefully are solo in each realm.

You sound really mature. Maybe hold your breath till they enable assassins to beat all classes?
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:03 PM by Hejjin
Turano wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 4:46 PM
no, I'ld be fine with getting rid of IP and vanish. Question is how the server would survive the outrage

Not to mention the DDoS attacks :-)
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:05 PM by Campjr
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:03 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:52 PM
I can have better debates with my 8 year old. We clearly get your point that you despise stealthers and dont care to really discuss real issues.

But you are right, we have the choice to pick out 3 classes that hopefully are solo in each realm.

You sound really mature. Maybe hold your breath till they enable assassins to beat all classes?

thats exactly what we asked for....
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:07 PM by Kemoauc
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:00 PM
Yes I swing 3 times and am blocked/parried/evaded on most likely 1 or 2 of them and hit with my mainhand for ONE HUNDRED(!) damage.

I'd rather have combination of dodger and toughness for 34 points if it scaled as hard as MoBlock or MoParry. 15% more evade for 15 points sounds fair right?

So you're saying you will do 200-250 dmg over those 6 seconds? You really claim your average dps in a fight is 40?

I don't know guys. You just don't even want to try or discuss things that might work AND ARE CURRENTLY IN THE GAME and argue for the sake of arguing. What you're asking for is to be able to kill anything that walks in this game. This is pointless and I'll head out.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:12 PM by Druth
Campjr wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:05 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:03 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 6:52 PM
I can have better debates with my 8 year old. We clearly get your point that you despise stealthers and dont care to really discuss real issues.

But you are right, we have the choice to pick out 3 classes that hopefully are solo in each realm.

You sound really mature. Maybe hold your breath till they enable assassins to beat all classes?

thats exactly what we asked for....

An earlier quote from one of the assassins:
Solutions: Increase PA damage, and or make it ignore ablative charges (current Meta)
Decrease PD effectiveness on BD's and or make lifetap affected by disease or make the heals from pets even less effective when BD is diseased, dunno, some options.
Balance necros.
Increase timers on IP/Purge(make it higher across the entire chain, affects sneaks too)/ST etc, even to 15min
SM - tough, but reduce blockrate of pet based on WS or debuffs, i dunno its a weird one, im stumped there, luckily the best SM out there likes me and wont fuck me over haha.

That is a nerf of every solo class left, except assassins.
It's even a nerf to archers.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:15 PM by Campjr
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:07 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:00 PM
Yes I swing 3 times and am blocked/parried/evaded on most likely 1 or 2 of them and hit with my mainhand for ONE HUNDRED(!) damage.

I'd rather have combination of dodger and toughness for 34 points if it scaled as hard as MoBlock or MoParry. 15% more evade for 15 points sounds fair right?

So you're saying you will do 200-250 dmg over those 6 seconds? You really claim your average dps in a fight is 40?

I don't know guys. You just don't even want to try or discuss things that might work and argue for the sake of arguing. What you're asking for is to be able to kill anything that walks in this game. This is pointless and I'll head out.

Thats because you arent addressing the real issues or being logical in your thought approach. The counter argument from visibles has been weak at best. Two points being made with no suggestions or real thought put into the rebuttal. The assassins have given you real scenarios and explained why we feel we arent where we should and have even stated where we think assassins should fall in the heirarchy. The points have been "you have stealth" and "RA spec Tanky". Neither of those define ASSASSIN. None of you have truly address your thoughts with an open mind on what the fight should look like if played to perfection by said assassin? If your stance is, Assassins should only be able to legit beat 3-4 classes in each realm, then just say that.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:49 PM by Taniquetil
Kemy I get your points, i wish bladeshades had access to the side haste debuff as high as mids do, its tasty.

Can give a few tests ago, it may work for zerks, maybe less so for NS due to hp gap.

Druth, your arguments have been pretty childish the last few posts but here, lets have a straight discussion.

Critique it or explain why these are awful suggestions please.

Bd nerf helps everyone, not just sins, same as necro balance, same as sm intercept. Do any of them guarantee a win. No. If a champ (or otherwise) can put out enough dps he might take the bd out, maybe. Is it so awful to challenge a BD to quickcast a root and kite a bit? Or force a necro to think slightly differently about the way they fight?

Does purge IP timer unfairly give anyone an advantage/disadvantage? No it just means you’ll have a more mixed variety of fights. Some with purge up, some down, and it goes a way to de-incentivising keep hugging and waiting on timers.

PA ignoring ablative? So bad? It bursts a bubble, cant it negate an ablative? Only change your gameplay would need to adapt to overcome it would be to ensure you try a bit harder to dodge a PA. get PA’d you still have a healthy win chance. Miss PA, I am a tasty little bit of free rps for you.

Thoughts? Be constructive
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:53 PM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:49 PM
Kemy I get your points, i wish bladeshades had access to the side haste debuff as high as mids do, its tasty.

Can give a few tests ago, it may work for zerks, maybe less so for NS due to hp gap.

Druth, your arguments have been pretty childish the last few posts but here, lets have a straight discussion.

Critique it or explain why these are awful suggestions please.

Bd nerf helps everyone, not just sins, same as necro balance, same as sm intercept. Do any of them guarantee a win. No. If a champ (or otherwise) can put out enough dps he might take the bd out, maybe. Is it so awful to challenge a BD to quickcast a root and kite a bit? Or force a necro to think slightly differently about the way they fight?

Does purge IP timer unfairly give anyone an advantage/disadvantage? No it just means you’ll have a more mixed variety of fights. Some with purge up, some down, and it goes a way to de-incentivising keep hugging and waiting on timers.

PA ignoring ablative? So bad? It bursts a bubble, cant it negate an ablative? Only change your gameplay would need to adapt to overcome it would be to ensure you try a bit harder to dodge a PA. get PA’d you still have a healthy win chance. Miss PA, I am a tasty little bit of free rps for you.

Thoughts? Be constructive

I will explain why they all benefit stealthers the most.

BD/necro nerf because they are the last 2 casters that run solo.
Purge/IP timer because I as a thane does NOT have the option of not engaging a fight when purge/IP is down, stealthers have that choice. And I forgot, that IP because assassins don't have IP.
PA ignoring abla is pretty obvious.

You only want, and offer nothing.
If stealth pop had been low, I would gladly accept your suggestions, but that is not the case and so all we'd get are more stealthers.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:55 PM by Mavella
Well blade shades can get 34% haste debuff they just gotta spec 39 blades and land 2 styles for it. Just like my poor sb to land a freakin stun.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:02 PM by Killaloth
Campjr wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:28 PM
Just about can’t touch any R5 tank even with full PA chain and poisons.

Way too many pages to read..

If it can help? I noticed a big difference between stealthers of equal rank.

Some know what to do and how to spec their toon, some others are gimp in comparison.

It's no coincidence that some names are consistently perform well with or without PA opening and other are weak.

I'm not giving names but my suggestion is to play around with your spec :>
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:07 PM by Taniquetil
30% and have to actively overspec blades to get it and gimp other lines. :<

So Druth, my suggestions are awful, how do you propose we fix the situation?

The situation being
1: PA does no damage to many classes over and above a con debuff, therefore whilst it is a class defining attack, its currently worthless.
2: Certain classes are a 100% guaranteed loss to fight, assuming we want to make the game more varied and interesting, I think you'd agree that changing this isnt necessarily a bad thing? For yourself included. E.g. I do find it odd that tanks have no mechanic to close the gap on casters making kiting super powerul.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:15 PM by Campjr
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:02 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:28 PM
Just about can’t touch any R5 tank even with full PA chain and poisons.

Way too many pages to read..

If it can help? I noticed a big difference between stealthers of equal rank.

Some know what to do and how to spec their toon, some others are gimp in comparison.

It's no coincidence that some names are consistently perform well with or without PA opening and other are weak.

I'm not giving names but my suggestion is to play around with your spec :>

The assassins in this thread are in the top5% of the class. While I do agree with your point, it’s not applicable to the people making points in this thread.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:49 PM by lannchilds
you need to make a stealther power rankings with all this top 5%/10% stealth tier stuff
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:01 PM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:07 PM
30% and have to actively overspec blades to get it and gimp other lines. :<

So Druth, my suggestions are awful, how do you propose we fix the situation?

The situation being
1: PA does no damage to many classes over and above a con debuff, therefore whilst it is a class defining attack, its currently worthless.
2: Certain classes are a 100% guaranteed loss to fight, assuming we want to make the game more varied and interesting, I think you'd agree that changing this isnt necessarily a bad thing? For yourself included. E.g. I do find it odd that tanks have no mechanic to close the gap on casters making kiting super powerul.

Your suggestions are fine, the problem is the circumstances.
They are made to buff classes that are already quite popular, and that has been popular from launch till now.
And again... stealth population is to high.

So unless you understand what makes them popular, it's really hopeless to discuss if they need buffs.

Archers, before the stealth buff (and also hunter buff...), were far and between. Almost every stealther was an assassin, with some rangers thrown in the mix.
That was a solid basis for a buff, and the beauty of the buff was that the main part came at the expense of assassins, thus not increasing stealth population.

So when you are looking to buff a class, do a /serverinfo 50 and look at the bottom feeders, they are likely (but not necessarily) the ones in need of a buff.

If that is not the case, and you want to buff something, because it's "class defining" (which I agree PA is), then you have to sacrifice something else. Otherwise you are just buffing an already strong class.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:05 PM by Mavella
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:02 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:28 PM
Just about can’t touch any R5 tank even with full PA chain and poisons.

Way too many pages to read..

If it can help? I noticed a big difference between stealthers of equal rank.

Some know what to do and how to spec their toon, some others are gimp in comparison.

It's no coincidence that some names are consistently perform well with or without PA opening and other are weak.

I'm not giving names but my suggestion is to play around with your spec :>

Spec has little to do with it. High crit strike or high DW or LA are the only viable lines. Some lines have more non-physical sources of damage that can have varied usefulness in a fight with a tank. Dual shadows bleed(great) and Aurora Borealis Proc(situational) are what come to mind. Sins running those can certainly utilize other sources of non physical damage like viper/damage add/dot procs etc. These will help immensely in fights that are a bit more drawn out especially when going against 50%~ combined passive defense chance.

Viper is not so helpful in sin fights that generally are resolved in 20 seconds or less. You can invest 30 points in viper to MAYBE get all 5 ticks off before someone is dead. Generally in the sin fight its the person who invested so heavily in viper but maybe they got the reapply off just before death and get the post-mortem tie.

So I can choose to invest 30 points in viper and do better vs tanks and lose more match ups vs sins or spec for physical damage so I can stay competitive vs sins. My investment in str, crit, and attack speed feels relatively worthless vs most tanks with the amount of mitigation, passive defense, and cooldowns available to them.

Viper might be more attractive as an all around damage source if it wasn't nerfed but alas.

Also the scaling on MoBlock and MoParry are fucking idiotic. 24% increase chance to ignore damage if you go 5/5 for 20 points?! I'll take Dodger to increase my passive defense so effortlessly please.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 12:02 AM by Lumarin
What in the actual fuck, are there are really assassins in here asking to be able to solo down shield tanks?

Sweet baby ray's, the world has gone mad
Sat 20 Jul 2019 12:05 AM by Lumarin
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:05 PM
Spec has little to do with it. High crit strike or high DW or LA are the only viable lines. Some lines have more non-physical sources of damage that can have varied usefulness in a fight with a tank. Dual shadows bleed(great) and Aurora Borealis Proc(situational) are what come to mind. Sins running those can certainly utilize other sources of non physical damage like viper/damage add/dot procs etc. These will help immensely in fights that are a bit more drawn out especially when going against 50%~ combined passive defense chance.

Viper is not so helpful in sin fights that generally are resolved in 20 seconds or less. You can invest 30 points in viper to MAYBE get all 5 ticks off before someone is dead. Generally in the sin fight its the person who invested so heavily in viper but maybe they got the reapply off just before death and get the post-mortem tie.

So I can choose to invest 30 points in viper and do better vs tanks and lose more match ups vs sins or spec for physical damage so I can stay competitive vs sins. My investment in str, crit, and attack speed feels relatively worthless vs most tanks with the amount of mitigation, passive defense, and cooldowns available to them.

Viper might be more attractive as an all around damage source if it wasn't nerfed but alas.

Also the scaling on MoBlock and MoParry are fucking idiotic. 24% increase chance to ignore damage if you go 5/5 for 20 points?! I'll take Dodger to increase my passive defense so effortlessly please.

You act like you forget that STEALTHERS have STEALTH. You know what mitigates 100% of damage? STEALTH. Pick your targets better and stop this nonsense. You can't ignore the utility that stealth brings to your kit when talking about a 1v1 with a fucking shield tank, this isn't fantasy land.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 3:39 AM by Mavella
Lumarin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 12:05 AM
You act like you forget that STEALTHERS have STEALTH. You know what mitigates 100% of damage? STEALTH. Pick your targets better and stop this nonsense. You can't ignore the utility that stealth brings to your kit when talking about a 1v1 with a fucking shield tank, this isn't fantasy land.

Not one single assassin in this thread is arguing against stealth utility. Stealth however doesn't allow you actually win a fight you wouldn't have won anyway with how ineffective the critical strike openers are on anything beyond cloth and leather wearers. I would expect landing a full perf chain to not be made totally ineffectual by a combination of MHB that everyone now runs, high absorb armor, and comically high stackable damage negation.

The only time I have a HOPE of killing a rr5+ tank is.
Land perf, pray I don't get slammed, CD isn't blocked, parried, or evaded. The tank doesn't purge. I don't Miss ANY follow up attacks. Hope they don't have IP when the stun drops. I can purge their subsequent slam and actually press my advantage. The chances of all that happening? I'd guess probably 10% or less.

And listen I have zero issue with not being able to kill a sword and board tanky tank. The issue is they all have the ability to swap to dual wield or a 2her with impunity benefit from drastically increased damage while benefitting from all the combined defense. Don't call it skillful it's just as fucking cheesy as assassin lifebane poison swapping and we all see what happened to that. Honestly the scaling on MoParry and MoBlock are fucking idiotic here because no one has the stats or weaponskill to be able to begin to bypass that much defense.

Tanks are capable of passive defense % here I'm going to assume are comperable to live and they are facing opponents with 250-280 strength rather than 350-400 strength possibly higher? That's certainly not inconsequential.

So yes I'd say I'd like to have a fair shake against a tank that I outrank by 2-4 ranks but as it stands the stars have to align under most circumstances.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 4:28 AM by Druth
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 3:39 AM
Lumarin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 12:05 AM
You act like you forget that STEALTHERS have STEALTH. You know what mitigates 100% of damage? STEALTH. Pick your targets better and stop this nonsense. You can't ignore the utility that stealth brings to your kit when talking about a 1v1 with a fucking shield tank, this isn't fantasy land.

Not one single assassin in this thread is arguing against stealth utility. Stealth however doesn't allow you actually win a fight you wouldn't have won anyway with how ineffective the critical strike openers are on anything beyond cloth and leather wearers. I would expect landing a full perf chain to not be made totally ineffectual by a combination of MHB that everyone now runs, high absorb armor, and comically high stackable damage negation.

The only time I have a HOPE of killing a rr5+ tank is.
Land perf, pray I don't get slammed, CD isn't blocked, parried, or evaded. The tank doesn't purge. I don't Miss ANY follow up attacks. Hope they don't have IP when the stun drops. I can purge their subsequent slam and actually press my advantage. The chances of all that happening? I'd guess probably 10% or less.

And listen I have zero issue with not being able to kill a sword and board tanky tank. The issue is they all have the ability to swap to dual wield or a 2her with impunity benefit from drastically increased damage while benefitting from all the combined defense. Don't call it skillful it's just as fucking cheesy as assassin lifebane poison swapping and we all see what happened to that. Honestly the scaling on MoParry and MoBlock are fucking idiotic here because no one has the stats or weaponskill to be able to begin to bypass that much defense.

Tanks are capable of passive defense % here I'm going to assume are comperable to live and they are facing opponents with 250-280 strength rather than 350-400 strength possibly higher? That's certainly not inconsequential.

So yes I'd say I'd like to have a fair shake against a tank that I outrank by 2-4 ranks but as it stands the stars have to align under most circumstances.

He is rude, which is unfortunate.
And yes, swapping weapons and benefiting from shield AND dual/2H is broken.

But like every other assassin here, you keep evading (at dodger 5) the stealth issue.
You say "ah... yes, I have stealth, but..." and then continue to ignore stealth completely and speak of 1v1.
Every single one of you ignores stealth the rest of your long speeches, and it feels like an interview with a politician, you seemingly accept the "question" but ignore it the rest of your answer.

If you had ended with:
"So yes I'd say I'd like to have a fair shake against a tank that I outrank by 2-4 ranks but as it stands the stars have to align under most circumstances.and would be willing to accept better stealth detection for it".
Then this whole thread would have a scent of reason and wanting balance, but until then it's just someone wanting buffs to already popular classes, or scissor wanting rock nerfed.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 5:56 AM by Mavella
Again, of what consequence to you is stealth when 90% of encounters with stealthers happens within eye shot of a keep door? The RPs literally come to you. There's no travel paths anymore. Stealth literally has no option but to zerg chase or come to the same bridge you're camping and try their luck.


Stealth is the trade off for the total lack of groupability sins offer. Its SLIGHTLY alleviated here with determination but hybrids got it as well. What group is honestly doing to take a leather wearing zerker without stoicism that does 2/3 the damage? No one. Every tank hybrid and caster is infinitely more group-able.

The biggest issue with stealth isn't the lone stealther it's fucking stealth groups and i've said for months they should make stealth less effective the more allied stealth there are in an area.

Stealth was infinitely more effective when people actually had to transverse zones not just PORTS AND BOATS!
Sat 20 Jul 2019 8:06 AM by Irkeno
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 5:56 AM
The biggest issue with stealth isn't the lone stealther it's fucking stealth groups andi've said for months they should make stealth less effective the more allied stealth there are in an area.



I really wish you were a dev. I agree absolutely.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 8:44 AM by jelzinga_EU
Kemoauc wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:07 PM
So you're saying you will do 200-250 dmg over those 6 seconds? You really claim your average dps in a fight is 40?

I don't know guys. You just don't even want to try or discuss things that might work AND ARE CURRENTLY IN THE GAME and argue for the sake of arguing. What you're asking for is to be able to kill anything that walks in this game. This is pointless and I'll head out.

I think 40 DPS isn't even that far off when fighting a paladin, to be honest.

2.0 sec swing-speed --> 90 mainhand / 30 offhand (60 DPS)
add lifebane ---> (15.0 DPS)

Now assume a 25% block-rate, 19% parry-rate, 10% miss-rate and a 5% ablative-absorb.

With those numbers, you're looking at roughly 40 DPS.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 8:54 AM by Taniquetil
Druth its clear you just dont like stealth.

Nerfing stealth when grouped or bunched up is a great suggestion, I fucking hate the stealth zergs, but right now already there are many good players who make it very hard as a stealther to escape from them if they catch a glimpse of you so really stealth isnt as OP as you think, unless you want to see us at speed 6 as you run by.

Also you tun a Thane? You have a pbaoe to just fire off a hopeful shot to find stealthers without even needing to know if they’re there. No complaints, its strong, fun and adds texture and makes it threatening to camp choke points. Nice! But if you’re having thst hard a time finding sneaks if you’re actively hunting them, maybe you need to adapt your playstyle.

When I’m on my visi classes, I really dont struggle tracking down a sneak once he’s popped up in the vicinity.

And lore pots are even more stupid.

Really it sounds like you want an easy win and to not have to bother to try and dodge a PA at all, tell me im wrong. If thats true then I’m afraid you have to also accept responsibility for being one of the causes for the stealth zergs too. People are going to set up to win. Zero chance 1v1? Ignore or zerg, while you might want to be ignored you’ll end up getting zerged. So choose a tougher/balanced fight that encourages more 1v1s or accept the zergings 🤷‍♂️

Re stealth/sins generally I play mine as most of the time my friends who I play this with are not online when I play, and pugging in hib is tough. So its a class that favours soloing, yes thats true, but equally I know i’ll never get a group with it. Plus the character lore is appealing, having to be smart about engagements, hunting etc. I also enjoy having really fun closely fought battles and the challenges that come with picking the right targets at the right times. That’s why I play a stealther.

Saw dark dawn rolled midgard, faily playing a skald, solo, he ran such varied lines it was impossible to land a PA, he dodged it, we fought, it was close, we dropped everything we had, he won. He played SO much better than most of the skalds it reminded me where the bar should be. I was happy as he knew what he was doing to bait a tough PA and I respected it as he lifted the bar. Read that again, “I was happy I lost and I enjoyed the fight”

If you are lazy enough to just runlock to your destination, you deserve a little wake up call in the face.

Currently there is NO need to do that, all I want is for there to be a slight need for that to happen. Challenge you a bit more and punish me a bit more if i fuck it up.

Risk/reward is interesting. 100% guaranteed loss if I attack another player in this game 🤦‍♂️ Not so much.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:03 AM by Hejjin
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 5:56 AM
snip...
Stealth was infinitely more effective when people actually had to transverse zones not just PORTS AND BOATS!
Isn't that the real reason behind these complaints, that we are no longer in Old Frontiers where all potential victims had no choice but to funnel through a very limited number of bottlenecks? The change to NF obviously impacts the performance of Assassins, one reason I am sure so many of you voted against NF. You assassins were (mostly) not complaining about your lack of group appeal when you had your seasons in the sun in OF, as then you had neither the desire nor the need to group. Now that NF has removed the limited and predictable bottlenecks and severely limited your number of potential victims you are complaining that your classes are weak. Sorry I disagree, my personal view is that assassins are not weak, let alone very weak on this server. Yes you struggle against some classes, so what? The majority of those solo classes that were listed could each produce their own list of solo classes they struggle against, except that none of them have vanish to at least avoid defeat by those Bane classes and all of them will be rolled over by Duos, small or 8 man groups or even zergs when they are seen as they are forced to always be visible whilst soloing.

There are elements discussed in this thread that I agree with, and perhaps some of them should be looked at (things such as additional penalties for weapon/shield swapping).
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:10 AM by Lumarin
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 5:56 AM
Again, of what consequence to you is stealth when 90% of encounters with stealthers happens within eye shot of a keep door? The RPs literally come to you. There's no travel paths anymore. Stealth literally has no option but to zerg chase or come to the same bridge you're camping and try their luck.


Stealth is the trade off for the total lack of groupability sins offer. Its SLIGHTLY alleviated here with determination but hybrids got it as well. What group is honestly doing to take a leather wearing zerker without stoicism that does 2/3 the damage? No one. Every tank hybrid and caster is infinitely more group-able.

The biggest issue with stealth isn't the lone stealther it's fucking stealth groups and i've said for months they should make stealth less effective the more allied stealth there are in an area.

Stealth was infinitely more effective when people actually had to transverse zones not just PORTS AND BOATS!

You can't have it both ways. You can't complain about assassins not being able to take down tank hybrids and complain about stealth groups in the same breath. Stealth groups open up a world of possibilities, what sense would nerfing stealth groups have? The solo player fantasy that stealthers seem to hold on to is completely baffling. This is an MMO, a team game, a realm vs realm game. Please stop trying to force people to stop playing together.

The entire point you're missing here about the fact that stealth is a tool for you is that stealth allows you to choose the fights you want to take. That's a luxury virtually nobody else in the game has. If you're afforded the luxury of being able to pick the fights you want to take, and then you complain about losing the fights that you've chosen to engage in.... Well, I hope I don't need to say any more.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:52 AM by Taniquetil
Hah. I do well, I enjoy the game, I kill smart, so does Mavella, one of the best sb’s out there. All we are saying is we want the game to be more interesting and challenging for everyone. Why in a game that is built around people attacking each other should there be situations that are 100% impossible to win regardless of skill?!

What kind of response to a discussion around balancing classes to make the game more challenging for everyone is. “Hahaha no, just group/zerg instead”

Much like live gave a punishment to groups killing solos, as after all the game should try to cater to everyone having diverse fun. Maybe the suggestion doesnt work, but the premise to encourage more diverse playstyles isnt bad.

Do you really get enjoyment from 5v1ing a stealther or a full grp steamrolling a soloer? No.

The fun is in the challenging fights, the nailbiting ones, the ones you remember and talk about after. Not PAing a level 40 caster in one shot..... some of my most fun fights on bard and shade have been losses, 1 swing either way, one amazing play or a tide turning moment of outplaying someone. Not inevitable losses, but hard fought close fun ones. No?
Sat 20 Jul 2019 11:14 AM by Hejjin
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:52 AM
snip...
All we are saying is we want the game to be more interesting and challenging for everyone.
If that really was all you were saying, then you would have very few objections, but that is most certainly not all that has been discussed in this thread.

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:52 AM
Why in a game that is built around people attacking each other should there be situations that are 100% impossible to win regardless of skill?!
Down the years I have played a lot of MMOs that have featured PvP, some of those games were role rather than classed based, that allowed the player to respec when out of combat, and yet even in those games there were situations where regardless of your skill / performance you were guaranteed to lose because you were in the wrong role / spec for the people you were fighting. In a class based MMO that is even more of an issue, has any MMO truly balanced ALL classes so that every class has equal chance at success in a 1 v 1 fight with every other class? If so, then I am unaware of said MMO.

Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:52 AM
What kind of response to a discussion around balancing classes to make the game more challenging for everyone is. “Hahaha no, just group/zerg instead”
I actually agree with that point ;-).
Sat 20 Jul 2019 11:36 AM by Killaloth
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 9:05 PM
Killaloth wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 8:02 PM
Campjr wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 7:28 PM
Just about can’t touch any R5 tank even with full PA chain and poisons.

Way too many pages to read..

If it can help? I noticed a big difference between stealthers of equal rank.

Some know what to do and how to spec their toon, some others are gimp in comparison.

It's no coincidence that some names are consistently perform well with or without PA opening and other are weak.

I'm not giving names but my suggestion is to play around with your spec :>

Spec has little to do with it. High crit strike or high DW or LA are the only viable lines. Some lines have more non-physical sources of damage that can have varied usefulness in a fight with a tank. Dual shadows bleed(great) and Aurora Borealis Proc(situational) are what come to mind. Sins running those can certainly utilize other sources of non physical damage like viper/damage add/dot procs etc. These will help immensely in fights that are a bit more drawn out especially when going against 50%~ combined passive defense chance.

Viper is not so helpful in sin fights that generally are resolved in 20 seconds or less. You can invest 30 points in viper to MAYBE get all 5 ticks off before someone is dead. Generally in the sin fight its the person who invested so heavily in viper but maybe they got the reapply off just before death and get the post-mortem tie.

So I can choose to invest 30 points in viper and do better vs tanks and lose more match ups vs sins or spec for physical damage so I can stay competitive vs sins. My investment in str, crit, and attack speed feels relatively worthless vs most tanks with the amount of mitigation, passive defense, and cooldowns available to them.

Viper might be more attractive as an all around damage source if it wasn't nerfed but alas.

Also the scaling on MoBlock and MoParry are fucking idiotic. 24% increase chance to ignore damage if you go 5/5 for 20 points?! I'll take Dodger to increase my passive defense so effortlessly please.

You shouldn't be able to kill a shield tank easily as a sneak, they are the ones usually running high defence RAs.

Hybrid tanks don't run moblock and moparry 5 if they are group spec.

I'm rr9 and I can die to high viper rr6/7 sneaks if I don't have purge up even if they start without landing a PA. High viper still makes a very good job.

But no you can't perform well Vs both visi and stealthers with one spec, that would be too much!

I'm not solo spec and have pierce weapons but at least to me the situation doesn't look bad for you guys.

Also, there is a technique to take down a tank/light tank in two rounds especially here (no charge). It used to drive me a little mad on live

No sneak has used it on me on Phoenix so far, everyone just try to land a PA. Perhaps because ppl know there is little respect for 1vs1 on this server? Perhaps ppl just don't know or don't try?
Sat 20 Jul 2019 12:08 PM by Sindralor
Snare poison cheese with viper 5?
Backstab with 34% ats debuff from the side while applying atleast 4 poisons?

Dabbing?
IS IT THE DABBING EMOTE??

you could probably use a DoT Charge with Viper and just run in circles with snare poison / disease with backstab opener
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:34 PM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:44 AM
i never understood why they nerfed buffcharges because it lead to musthave-charging but left in MHB-charges...
Was there a discussion/statement regarding that or could it simply be an oversight?

MHB? Sorry but I'm not very good at acronyms.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:44 PM by Mavella
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 9:03 AM
Isn't that the real reason behind these complaints, that we are no longer in Old Frontiers where all potential victims had no choice but to funnel through a very limited number of bottlenecks? The change to NF obviously impacts the performance of Assassins, one reason I am sure so many of you voted against NF. You assassins were (mostly) not complaining about your lack of group appeal when you had your seasons in the sun in OF, as then you had neither the desire nor the need to group. Now that NF has removed the limited and predictable bottlenecks and severely limited your number of potential victims you are complaining that your classes are weak. Sorry I disagree, my personal view is that assassins are not weak, let alone very weak on this server. Yes you struggle against some classes, so what? The majority of those solo classes that were listed could each produce their own list of solo classes they struggle against, except that none of them have vanish to at least avoid defeat by those Bane classes and all of them will be rolled over by Duos, small or 8 man groups or even zergs when they are seen as they are forced to always be visible whilst soloing.

For context I play most 2100 and later Eastern US time.

I was actually honestly having more fun than I thought the first few weeks of NF. People were actually trying to defend keeps and towers. Last night was a prime example of why I hate it. Mid frontier was in shambles. No ports available whatever. It eventually evolved into alba in hib frontier taking empty towers. Hibs in Alb frontier taking empty towers. Literal PvDoor orgy. I don't take much pleasure chasing them around at sprint speed and hoping I can safety score a kill every 15 minutes or so when Vanish is up. The NF play has devolved and groups go out of their way to kill ports for no reason so no realm can port anywhere for 15-30 minutes to a time over and over again. I just think NF is too large for NA population and the PvDoor cycle will continue.


Killaloth wrote: You shouldn't be able to kill a shield tank easily as a sneak, they are the ones usually running high defence RAs.

Hybrid tanks don't run moblock and moparry 5 if they are group spec.


Again there's really no such thing as a "shield tank" when they can all spec 42 for a 9second anytime stun and then swap back and forth between swings to maximize damage and defense. I'm sure many fancy themselves "skillful" just as "skillful" as the sins that swapped lifebane to maximize their dps. You get all the reward with no risk or thought involved.

Lumarin wrote: You can't have it both ways. You can't complain about assassins not being able to take down tank hybrids and complain about stealth groups in the same breath. Stealth groups open up a world of possibilities, what sense would nerfing stealth groups have? The solo player fantasy that stealthers seem to hold on to is completely baffling. This is an MMO, a team game, a realm vs realm game. Please stop trying to force people to stop playing together.

The entire point you're missing here about the fact that stealth is a tool for you is that stealth allows you to choose the fights you want to take. That's a luxury virtually nobody else in the game has.

Never thought I'd meet a pro stealth grouper. I'm not talking a about duos I'm talking 3++ when it's just fucking toxic and not fun. Then again there's fewer choke points for them to camp so I haven't run into nearly as many.

And yes I understand stealth allows me to choose fights but I've said before when 90% of stealth encounters happens whatever a realms far port is and that keeps bridge/dock. It affords me the benefit of delaying an inevitable death just like staying close to your keep does to you. Stealth has been rendered more ineffective because we now have to sit at these high traffic areas or risk not seeing anyone for 10+ minutes of a time. You have less risk in that you never have to travel farther than what 7500(?) units from your keep to find a fight as a solo tank. Don't tell me every solo visi doesn't fucking love the safety of a keep up fall back to if a fg or smallman comes sniffing around. Sure you might not be able to escape every time but how many could you when you were caught in the middle of OF Emain. ZERO.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:47 PM by Mavella
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:34 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:44 AM
i never understood why they nerfed buffcharges because it lead to musthave-charging but left in MHB-charges...
Was there a discussion/statement regarding that or could it simply be an oversight?

MHB? Sorry but I'm not very good at acronyms.

Melee health buffer/ablative. Everyone is running the 150 one preloaded before every encounter.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 3:28 PM by Saroi
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 5:32 PM
Also for anyone that has played live recently can sins compete with tanks there or do solo specced tanks just throttle them there as well?

Assassins on live are getting changed really often. Their poison has been changed as in being a used buff now and not applying to weapons. When that happened the poison were really OP and making Assassins be able to beat literally everyone. They were also giving vanish for free. But now poison was nerfed to oblivion and vanish was a RA again. Atm sins are not in a OP state, especially The 3 Main tanks and light tanks like BM/Merc/Berserker will mop the floor with Sins.

And because you love Rangers so much. On Live, Archers have got the Ability Remedy too which makes them immun to poisons for 1 minute. So Archers are also annoying to fight. ^^
Sat 20 Jul 2019 3:38 PM by Mavella
Saroi wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 3:28 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 5:32 PM
Also for anyone that has played live recently can sins compete with tanks there or do solo specced tanks just throttle them there as well?

Assassins on live are getting changed really often. Their poison has been changed as in being a used buff now and not applying to weapons. When that happened the poison were really OP and making Assassins be able to beat literally everyone. They were also giving vanish for free. But now poison was nerfed to oblivion and vanish was a RA again. Atm sins are not in a OP state, especially The 3 Main tanks and light tanks like BM/Merc/Berserker will mop the floor with Sins.

And because you love Rangers so much. On Live, Archers have got the Ability Remedy too which makes them immun to poisons for 1 minute. So Archers are also annoying to fight. ^^

Remedy AND physical defense? /faint!

Also with rangers being how they are here they have 15% evade with evade 3 and ive got 25% with evade 7. Largely because of their ability to stack huge str dex and qui I'm sure but... DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 5:08 PM by Lumarin
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:44 PM
Never thought I'd meet a pro stealth grouper. I'm not talking a about duos I'm talking 3++ when it's just fucking toxic and not fun. Then again there's fewer choke points for them to camp so I haven't run into nearly as many.

And yes I understand stealth allows me to choose fights but I've said before when 90% of stealth encounters happens whatever a realms far port is and that keeps bridge/dock. It affords me the benefit of delaying an inevitable death just like staying close to your keep does to you. Stealth has been rendered more ineffective because we now have to sit at these high traffic areas or risk not seeing anyone for 10+ minutes of a time. You have less risk in that you never have to travel farther than what 7500(?) units from your keep to find a fight as a solo tank. Don't tell me every solo visi doesn't fucking love the safety of a keep up fall back to if a fg or smallman comes sniffing around. Sure you might not be able to escape every time but how many could you when you were caught in the middle of OF Emain. ZERO.

It honestly sounds to me like you want to be the only one allowed to have fun here. NF got voted in because it allows a wider variety of people to thrive - that's the reality. Stealthing has always been a patience primary skillset. There are plenty of areas to find medium traffic if you're dynamic and willing to travel to catch people adding onto the zerg or catch people moving to defend towers. In alb I see grumpy solo infs sitting at Bled dock, or Beno dock, throwing themselves at bad fight after bad fight... complaining about everyone that adds into their pristine 1v1, never joining the BG to read player movement, never sharing intel in region, never grouping when things get too crowded. It's just not sustainable to be a stubborn player that isn't ready to be dynamic and play with the movement of the realms' frontiers or group when you need to break up control of an area.

And again, I don't really understand this "grouping with more than 1 other person is toxic" mentality. I personally almost exclusively duo, but it's really not hard to avoid areas that you know a group of 3+ is controlling and under no circumstances do you have the right to talk down to people that choose to play that way. It's a social game. DAOC was always great because it supports big group sizes and encourages BGs and cooperation - it's very counter-intuitive to try to combat that and your attitude about it is MILES more toxic than people that like to play with their friends.
Sat 20 Jul 2019 8:05 PM by Mavella
Lumarin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 5:08 PM
It honestly sounds to me like you want to be the only one allowed to have fun here. NF got voted in because it allows a wider variety of people to thrive - that's the reality. Stealthing has always been a patience primary skillset. There are plenty of areas to find medium traffic if you're dynamic and willing to travel to catch people adding onto the zerg or catch people moving to defend towers. In alb I see grumpy solo infs sitting at Bled dock, or Beno dock, throwing themselves at bad fight after bad fight... complaining about everyone that adds into their pristine 1v1, never joining the BG to read player movement, never sharing intel in region, never grouping when things get too crowded. It's just not sustainable to be a stubborn player that isn't ready to be dynamic and play with the movement of the realms' frontiers or group when you need to break up control of an area.

And again, I don't really understand this "grouping with more than 1 other person is toxic" mentality. I personally almost exclusively duo, but it's really not hard to avoid areas that you know a group of 3+ is controlling and under no circumstances do you have the right to talk down to people that choose to play that way. It's a social game. DAOC was always great because it supports big group sizes and encourages BGs and cooperation - it's very counter-intuitive to try to combat that and your attitude about it is MILES more toxic than people that like to play with their friends.

Are you really going to argue that large stealth groups in a game with PERMANENT stealth is not the most TOXIC playstyle possible???? The scum want all the benefits of security in numbers AND stealth with zero downside. They have no interest in fighting equal numbers or remotely fair fights. They just want to slaughter solos and small mans and make easy rps. There was a chorus of complaints nightly about the numbers camping MG roads and MGs themselves and a large reason why MANY wanted NF to remove those choke points so they didn't have to deal with that horseshit anymore. There's little counter play to it and what counter play there was on live was removed here because its as indiscriminate to solos as it is groups.

I'm not saying it should be impossible to group with your stealth buddies. I'm saying you should be easier to see as your numbers grow and you better be prepared to take on fights from more than the solos and duos you so gleefully slaughter over and over. I guarantee they wouldn't be able to and they would either adapt their play style or begone from the server or...or...or maybe try a class that was designed to group. I guarantee this SHIT behavior has cost this server more players than it would have lost from stealth groupers that would have quit because they wouldn't adapt.

And listen I made my arguments against NF because it was fairly obvious to see what the server would devolve to within months and it miraculously come true.

Zergs continue actively avoiding each other to take empty towers. The NF keeps are great but its extremely easy for a handful of defenders to extremely delay or prevent the capture unless there is a vastly superior number of attackers. The attackers then give up if it takes too long and go pop 2-3 more empty towers rather than try and fight.

Strong solo classes coast guarding their far keep bridge and dock. Stealthers are obviously of no concern to them and the only thing they fear is superior numbers no matter if its stealth or visible. They can get 95% of their action with safety to fall back to and zero punishment for dying. They are back to their camp spot in 2 minutes. The only downside is when they actually have to blow cool downs and maybe wait for them to cycle, GOSH!

You claim there are "medium traffic" areas and there certainly are not during NA times. Its either zerg surf, fight near a bridge or dock, or log the fuck off. This server is rapidly heading to Uthgard1 status for NA players. It'll be totally dead between the hours of 2100-0300 EST. GREAT!!!
Sat 20 Jul 2019 8:40 PM by Lumarin
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 8:05 PM
Are you really going to argue that large stealth groups in a game with PERMANENT stealth is not the most TOXIC playstyle possible???? The scum want all the benefits of security in numbers AND stealth with zero downside. They have no interest in fighting equal numbers or remotely fair fights. They just want to slaughter solos and small mans and make easy rps. There was a chorus of complaints nightly about the numbers camping MG roads and MGs themselves and a large reason why MANY wanted NF to remove those choke points so they didn't have to deal with that horseshit anymore. There's little counter play to it and what counter play there was on live was removed here because its as indiscriminate to solos as it is groups.

I'm not saying it should be impossible to group with your stealth buddies. I'm saying you should be easier to see as your numbers grow and you better be prepared to take on fights from more than the solos and duos you so gleefully slaughter over and over. I guarantee they wouldn't be able to and they would either adapt their play style or begone from the server or...or...or maybe try a class that was designed to group. I guarantee this SHIT behavior has cost this server more players than it would have lost from stealth groupers that would have quit because they wouldn't adapt.

And listen I made my arguments against NF because it was fairly obvious to see what the server would devolve to within months and it miraculously come true.

Zergs continue actively avoiding each other to take empty towers. The NF keeps are great but its extremely easy for a handful of defenders to extremely delay or prevent the capture unless there is a vastly superior number of attackers. The attackers then give up if it takes too long and go pop 2-3 more empty towers rather than try and fight.

Strong solo classes coast guarding their far keep bridge and dock. Stealthers are obviously of no concern to them and the only thing they fear is superior numbers no matter if its stealth or visible. They can get 95% of their action with safety to fall back to and zero punishment for dying. They are back to their camp spot in 2 minutes. The only downside is when they actually have to blow cool downs and maybe wait for them to cycle, GOSH!

You claim there are "medium traffic" areas and there certainly are not during NA times. Its either zerg surf, fight near a bridge or dock, or log the fuck off. This server is rapidly heading to Uthgard1 status for NA players. It'll be totally dead between the hours of 2100-0300 EST. GREAT!!!

This is completely delusional nonsense. You realize the only way to get a TRULY "fair fight" in this game is to fight someone with your exact realm rank, exact template, exact RA loadout, and exact spec, right? You do realize that your concept of a "fair fight" is complete fucking horseshit and irrelevant to any discussion, right?

This game isn't about being fair. It never has, it never will. This is a game about winning fights any way you can for your realm and dominating RVR. This game isn't about fairy tales and handshakes and fair 1v1 fights. It's a game with over 30 classes, 100s of viable specs. There's no such thing as fair. It's a game where the main objective is to literally conquer the other realms.

If you want a FAIR 1v1, go play fucking Street Fighter. This isn't the game you want it to be and it never will be.

As for the rest of your post, you're delusional about that too. Gorion's zerg actively and regularly seeks out absolutely every zerg v zerg fight it can find... I know this for a FACT and I see it on a nightly basis. I play on NA. I know there are medium traffic areas because I experience them every single night I play. You're just plain wrong. Your solo "fair fight" bias has clouded every bit of reason left in your head and you want a game that doesn't exist here.

All of your complaints run directly against the grain of everything this game was designed to be from day 1
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:22 AM by Mavella
Lumarin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 8:40 PM
This is completely delusional nonsense. You realize the only way to get a TRULY "fair fight" in this game is to fight someone with your exact realm rank, exact template, exact RA loadout, and exact spec, right? You do realize that your concept of a "fair fight" is complete fucking horseshit and irrelevant to any discussion, right?

This game isn't about being fair. It never has, it never will. This is a game about winning fights any way you can for your realm and dominating RVR. This game isn't about fairy tales and handshakes and fair 1v1 fights. It's a game with over 30 classes, 100s of viable specs. There's no such thing as fair. It's a game where the main objective is to literally conquer the other realms.

If you want a FAIR 1v1, go play fucking Street Fighter. This isn't the game you want it to be and it never will be.

As for the rest of your post, you're delusional about that too. Gorion's zerg actively and regularly seeks out absolutely every zerg v zerg fight it can find... I know this for a FACT and I see it on a nightly basis. I play on NA. I know there are medium traffic areas because I experience them every single night I play. You're just plain wrong. Your solo "fair fight" bias has clouded every bit of reason left in your head and you want a game that doesn't exist here.

All of your complaints run directly against the grain of everything this game was designed to be from day 1

Adjusting a mechanic to cut down on "unintended behavior" is probably the #1 Dev justification for changes across all MMOs for the past 20 years. We're clearly not playing a true representation of ANY period of DAOC so please don't try and use that as a shield. This game also contains no win conditions whatsoever. You claim we should "dominate" the other realms to what end? So you can drive them form the frontier and continue to pvdoor in peace??


Also my stealth change suggestion wouldn't impact you and your pal Sey's ability to hug and kiss in stealth near a dock, trust me. It's intended to make a life a little more punishing for those that sit around 3-4-5+ looking to gangbang the solos and duos. One of the hallmarks of this game was smaller forces could avoid slower moving larger forces but that doesn't really hold true for stealth zergs camping choke points hence the suggestion of making the play style riskier but no less rewarding.

It was honestly something that needed to be changed months ago in OF in particular. It's now an idea of what could have been on a server that continues to decline in population weekly.

I will also admit I have seen Gorion chase down the hib zerg on occasion but guess what he wipes the Pilz or Fernando BG and they respawn and pop a few more towers in a different frontier. Don't even try and tell me he is playing wack-a-mole with them because I watch /rw I can see the tower flip broadcasts. What you're saying is objectively not true. I look at the herald and all I see is more and more top earners getting a larger % of their total to keep flip rps than kill rps in a fucking PvP game. That's the real tragedy here.

The whole point of this thread is sins really have no place in NF. The examples of why it's exceedingly difficult to operate in this environment have been given so I'm not going to repeat them again. I assume most of my peers in this thread actually want to kill people not and not just guards but obviously the culture of the server wants what's easiest and that's as minimal danger in the frontier while slowly PvDoor grinding their way to rr11.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:47 AM by Lumarin
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:22 AM
Adjusting a mechanic to cut down on "unintended behavior" is probably the #1 Dev justification for changes across all MMOs for the past 20 years. We're clearly not playing a true representation of ANY period of DAOC so please don't try and use that as a shield. This game also contains no win conditions whatsoever. You claim we should "dominate" the other realms to what end? So you can drive them form the frontier and continue to pvdoor in peace??


Also my stealth change suggestion wouldn't impact you and your pal Sey's ability to hug and kiss in stealth near a dock, trust me. It's intended to make a life a little more punishing for those that sit around 3-4-5+ looking to gangbang the solos and duos. One of the hallmarks of this game was smaller forces could avoid slower moving larger forces but that doesn't really hold true for stealth zergs camping choke points hence the suggestion of making the play style riskier but no less rewarding.

Nerf stealthing near a dock all you want, that accounts for MAYBE 20% of my total play time in this game and I have more than enough other things to do in NF that it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Maybe if you were actually creative enough to go somewhere else you'd run across me somewhere else? I dunno, just a suggestion. I can't recall more than 2 or 3 instances of running into a "stealth zerg" in the last week... and that was so easily avoided once I knew it was happening that it is a 100% non issue. I legitimately have no idea how you could possibly make that molehill into a mountain.

It was honestly something that needed to be changed months ago in OF in particular. It's now an idea of what could have been on a server that continues to decline in population weekly.

I will also admit I have seen Gorion chase down the hib zerg on occasion but guess what he wipes the Pilz or Fernando BG and they respawn and pop a few more towers in a different frontier. Don't even try and tell me he is playing wack-a-mole with them because I watch /rw I can see the tower flip broadcasts. What you're saying is objectively not true. I look at the herald and all I see is more and more top earners getting a larger % of their total to keep flip rps than kill rps in a fucking PvP game. That's the real tragedy here.

The whole point of this thread is sins really have no place in NF. The examples of why it's exceedingly difficult to operate in this environment have been given so I'm not going to repeat them again. I assume most of my peers in this thread actually want to kill people not and not just guards but obviously the culture of the server wants what's easiest and that's as minimal danger in the frontier while slowly PvDoor grinding their way to rr11.

Sins and stealthers in general have plenty of responsibility and places to be in NF... You just don't like any of them. Admit that to yourself and you'll see things here with more clarity. This is more about you not liking the game than it is about anything else, to be completely frank.

edit- as an aside, I always find it funny when people like you try to call me out for playing duo with someone a lot... Yeah, I like playing with a friend of mine. You got me, shame on me! Trying to ridicule someone for playing with a friend is about as absurd as it gets in an MMO. How are you this disconnected from reality? I guess instead of enjoying the company of the people around me I should be stewing about how people aren't respecting 1v1s and running around by myself all night looking for the perfect opportunity to flex by being the person to land PA first in a duel. Give me a break, rofl
Sun 21 Jul 2019 1:49 AM by Cadebrennus
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:47 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:34 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:44 AM
i never understood why they nerfed buffcharges because it lead to musthave-charging but left in MHB-charges...
Was there a discussion/statement regarding that or could it simply be an oversight?

MHB? Sorry but I'm not very good at acronyms.

Melee health buffer/ablative. Everyone is running the 150 one preloaded before every encounter.

Thanks. I hadn't seen that acronym before.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 2:40 AM by Mavella
Lumarin wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 12:47 AM
Sins and stealthers in general have plenty of responsibility and places to be in NF... You just don't like any of them. Admit that to yourself and you'll see things here with more clarity. This is more about you not liking the game than it is about anything else, to be completely frank.

edit- as an aside, I always find it funny when people like you try to call me out for playing duo with someone a lot... Yeah, I like playing with a friend of mine. You got me, shame on me! Trying to ridicule someone for playing with a friend is about as absurd as it gets in an MMO. How are you this disconnected from reality? I guess instead of enjoying the company of the people around me I should be stewing about how people aren't respecting 1v1s and running around by myself all night looking for the perfect opportunity to flex by being the person to land PA first in a duel. Give me a break, rofl

I'm so so so glad the myriad of sin mains in this thread are wrong because YOU said so. Their experiences must be completely invalid because YOU said so. I'm glad you came into the thread to shine the light upon us!! Thank you!!!

And if you could actually read between the lines I implied
and have zero issues with stealth duos. It's not my preferred play style but obviously solos and duos actually have a chance to fight back vs those. My entire suggestion revolved around stealth groups of 3-8 that can easily overwhelm smaller numbers and totally avoid anything remotely threatening because perma stealth! I fully admit stealth groups aren't as prevalent as they used to be but as I said this was a change that was needed months ago back when OF was was still implemented.

Honestly I think most sins agree the bigger issue is all the strongest visible classes that want solo get to do it in the relative safety of being right next to their keep 90% of the time. Defensive RAs and actives outpace offensive RAs making tanks and certain casters walking demigods. The get all the rewards with almost no risk involved unless they happen to get bored enough to boat to an enemy far keep and run around there but most of the time they don't have to.

As an aside why do you think people get critshot immunity?? Because it's totally unfun and ridiculous to be 1shot by 3 coordinated archers from stealth. Imagine devs putting in a mechanic to eliminate toxic bullshit unfun mechanics. Perish the thought! Asking that large groups of stealthers be easier to spot when they are in the same vicinity certainly falls within the same vein.

But please keep proselytizing about what the spirit of a 20 year old game god forbid we change it to make it less stupid.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:38 AM by gotwqqd
Increase assassin damage adequately
Require spec for poison use
Don’t allow weapons in inventory to be poisoned
Fix stealth...increase detection with stats(intell? Or wisdom?) and when srtealthers are concentrated in an area
Sun 21 Jul 2019 4:14 AM by lannchilds
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:38 AM
Increase assassin damage adequately
Require spec for poison use
Don’t allow weapons in inventory to be poisoned
Fix stealth...increase detection with stats(intell? Or wisdom?) and when srtealthers are concentrated in an area

Sun 21 Jul 2019 4:23 AM by Lumarin
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 2:40 AM
I'm so so so glad the myriad of sin mains in this thread are wrong because YOU said so. Their experiences must be completely invalid because YOU said so. I'm glad you came into the thread to shine the light upon us!! Thank you!!!

And if you could actually read between the lines I implied
and have zero issues with stealth duos. It's not my preferred play style but obviously solos and duos actually have a chance to fight back vs those. My entire suggestion revolved around stealth groups of 3-8 that can easily overwhelm smaller numbers and totally avoid anything remotely threatening because perma stealth! I fully admit stealth groups aren't as prevalent as they used to be but as I said this was a change that was needed months ago back when OF was was still implemented.

Honestly I think most sins agree the bigger issue is all the strongest visible classes that want solo get to do it in the relative safety of being right next to their keep 90% of the time. Defensive RAs and actives outpace offensive RAs making tanks and certain casters walking demigods. The get all the rewards with almost no risk involved unless they happen to get bored enough to boat to an enemy far keep and run around there but most of the time they don't have to.

As an aside why do you think people get critshot immunity?? Because it's totally unfun and ridiculous to be 1shot by 3 coordinated archers from stealth. Imagine devs putting in a mechanic to eliminate toxic bullshit unfun mechanics. Perish the thought! Asking that large groups of stealthers be easier to spot when they are in the same vicinity certainly falls within the same vein.

But please keep proselytizing about what the spirit of a 20 year old game god forbid we change it to make it less stupid.

So again let me get this straight. There are classes out there (without stealth) that do what you want to be able to do (within 7500 units of their keeps, without stealth) and this upsets you because.... That's the part I'm not entirely sure of. The only reason I can see is that you, for some reason, expect to be able to kill strong solo visible classes within close proximity to their keeps - or maybe you just want to be able to free farm everyone that walks across the bridge or moves to the dock. For whatever reason you have it in your head that the area around the enemy's keep is your solo playground.

Okay, so lets pretend for a moment that you have a good point (you don't). Lets change it tomorrow, lets give you the ability to kill these solo classes, or simply remove their ability to solo. Lets remove every realm's ability to clean their transport hubs... their docks, their bridges, everything that allows them to move freely through the frontier. Lets remove the ability for visibles to defend these areas, and throw in "stealth zergs" while we're at it too.

Now try, for a second, to imagine what this change looks like to the other X classes in the game. Imagine what it does to their experience. To their relevance in the game.

It's exactly the same reason that archers will never be buffed (AND DON'T NEED TO BE). Because the last thing everyone wants is a world where stealthers are on top and nobody can move beyond their keeps because you seem to think that a class built for dueling shouldn't be able to duel you within 7500 units of their own god damn keep... There's no reasonable way to justify knocking every other class in the game down a peg just so that you can thrive. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You signed up for it when you choose your class and put your first spec point into stealth. The ability to stealth has to come with a cost. Complaining about people being able to walk around in close proximity to their own keeps without experiencing danger from a solo, permanently invisible player is literally ABSURD. How can you have that thought and think to yourself "yeah, this needs to change." How self centered can you be?

And make no mistake about it
Also my stealth change suggestion wouldn't impact you and your pal Sey's ability to hug and kiss in stealth near a dock, trust me.
You've tried to pretend like you don't care that I duo, but you've taken your subtle shots at me for it every chance you've had... because you can't help it and you think that rolling solo makes you better than everyone else. If you want me to "read between the lines," well, that's what I'm reading. It's written between the lines of every single post you've made in this thread.

Make a group. Adapt. It's not the dev's responsibility to change the game because you don't play nice with others and because you lack the creativity or patience to go find fights for yourself in places that might not be immediately obvious.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 5:48 AM by Irkeno
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:38 AM
Increase assassin damage adequately
Require spec for poison use
Don’t allow weapons in inventory to be poisoned
Fix stealth...increase detection with stats(intell? Or wisdom?) and when srtealthers are concentrated in an area

1) I'm happy with my damage.
2) Agree
3) We've all talked as a group, and decided to vote you off the island.
4) Entirely agree that stealth should be penalized somehow when there are multiple stealthers of the same realm close to one another.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 6:38 AM by kciztranzlucent
i think the fact that SB's or maybe other assassins idk Cant do any dmg to tanks is hilarious you literally hit them with a perf for 197?? and there anytime hits you harder is just insane. rib sep does no dmg for a 4th in chain and "growth" rate lmao growth rate my ass it does no dmg. not even worth it. Nightshades have an insta dot and they hit sbs for 20% more dmg. infils the same plus double the spec points. what do shadowblades get..?? the raw end of the stick thats what. buffs used to help but now that everyone gets af you cant perf anyone for shit. rangers are a joke they hit just as hard as a sb/ns/infil and they get ip !!! hhahah and studded armor and with moa they get insane stats+ Af. idk...
Sun 21 Jul 2019 6:53 AM by Druth
Was wrong of me to be triggered, so deleted.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 6:57 AM by Druth
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:38 AM
Increase assassin damage adequately
Require spec for poison use
Don’t allow weapons in inventory to be poisoned
Fix stealth...increase detection with stats(intell? Or wisdom?) and when srtealthers are concentrated in an area

I suspect troll, but this is actually how you adjust class issues on a class that thinks their role is hard to fill, but still remains popular and can kill most casters with ease.
You boost what they want buffed, but nerf other things about it.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 4:54 PM by gotwqqd
Druth wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 6:57 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 3:38 AM
Increase assassin damage adequately
Require spec for poison use
Don’t allow weapons in inventory to be poisoned
Fix stealth...increase detection with stats(intell? Or wisdom?) and when srtealthers are concentrated in an area

I suspect troll, but this is actually how you adjust class issues on a class that thinks their role is hard to fill, but still remains popular and can kill most casters with ease.
You boost what they want buffed, but nerf other things about it.
Not a troll
I believe this is how stealth/assassins should be
Sun 21 Jul 2019 7:17 PM by Lillebror
I want weapon swap macroes commands removed
the restart lifebane poison back.
Pa should hit for 400+, its a stealth opner for gods sake.
Im more than fine with a stealth nerf if a few stealthers from same realm is close.
Remove SL potion
Pets shouldnt follow stealthers that stealth
And i think i talk for almost everyone; cloth targets as necro, bd, sm shouldnt be close to hardest target to take down .
Sun 21 Jul 2019 7:56 PM by florin
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 7:17 PM
I want weapon swap macroes commands removed
the restart lifebane poison back.
Pa should hit for 400+, its a stealth opner for gods sake.
Im more than fine with a stealth nerf if a few stealthers from same realm is close.
Remove SL potion
Pets shouldnt follow stealthers that stealth
And i think i talk for almost everyone; cloth targets as necro, bd, sm shouldnt be close to hardest target to take down .

And when do you want to lose..ever?
Sun 21 Jul 2019 9:29 PM by Lillebror
Yes i play a rr4 Inf, Do you play stealther?

Biggest problem with stealthers today is the ratio number between visual and stealthers.
Wonder if mounts would help on the issue.
uber pimped stealthers buffed to the teeth that min/Max to the extreme shouldnt be the norm when we talk balance. I bet and belive stealther more than others do just that. And some hardcore solo visuals.


PS: Could remove Vanish too, will not waste my ra points into it anyway, atm im to low to spend the points and when high enough i dont need it much.
Sun 21 Jul 2019 9:46 PM by Taniquetil
florin wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Jul 2019 7:56 PM
And when do you want to lose..ever?

When i fail a PA, when a shield tank plays well and uses his tools, if a shield tank has IP up I should probably still lose even if i got PA off. When a BD/SM uses root/kites well, if i miss PA on them, i should lose. BD or SM mocs after a PA, yeah totally still fucked.

But waiting to be PA'd so you can just rickroll them feels a bit weird.

I want to die plenty, i want to be challenged. Watching someone run around that no one wants to go near is weird. I want fun/variance/challenge. But a BD not giving a shit about being PA'd is kindof a problem. a zerker standing on a bridge asking to be PA'd.. is a problem.

That's my view. Is that a misguided opinion?

Oh and RE this whole sneaks are overpopulated, Current snapshot:
Mon 22 Jul 2019 9:22 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Jul 2019 2:34 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Jul 2019 7:44 AM
i never understood why they nerfed buffcharges because it lead to musthave-charging but left in MHB-charges...
Was there a discussion/statement regarding that or could it simply be an oversight?

MHB? Sorry but I'm not very good at acronyms.

melee health buffer, the partial dmg absorbshield
Mon 22 Jul 2019 12:18 PM by Freedomcall
Dude... 50CS? i'm pretty sure you have wrong spec.
Assassins are very playable and SB isn't weak.
And ppl play stealth zerg not bc sins are weak, but bc they just want to spam garrottes brainlessly and get easy rps.
Wed 24 Jul 2019 3:36 AM by Numatic
I have classes on all 3 realms. I mostly play mid and hib though. My NS is rr5, and I have real trouble against just about anything short of squishy casters or scouts. Although I'm a pierce spec. i'm not that great tbh, but I don't consider myself bad (alot of times im just brainlessly wacking away for the task so idc if i die so it may seem that way to some lol).

I went pierce to supplement when I duo with my brother so one will have an advantage if the other doesnt. I'm 52 comp weapon and 50 CS spec. I PA'd a skald the other day for 300dmg. Thats laughable. Especially considering im pierce and 50 CS spec (because of these numbers im def dropping CS and bumping my CD line). Like...that shouldn't happen. When the skald turns around, he hits me with a 2h for 250+ and another 300 with his DD's (or close to it). For a class that doesn't have IP, thats a death sentence. That's like 40% of my health right there. Because every class like an assasin can have a heal pot and legion charge, that basically nulls those items.

Assasins were meant to be killers with their PA chain. It's the bread and butter of the class but some people just think it should be nullified becasuse they play <insert class they feel should win automatically in 1v1>. It was meant to be a devastating attack. I get hit by a 2h for that much. It's really a joke. Do you want to know why Vanish is a problem? Because it's become too difficult to kill anything anymore. Nobody groups assasins, so they have to either stealth group to kill targets, or wait for god knows how long to find someone dumb enough to lag behind and attempt to pick them off.

Thats not saying the class isnt playable and can't kill people. It's obvious they can and do. But when you match them up equally against most targets, even with PA, it's not even close. My brother runs around on his skald baiting assasins, even with PA, because he knows he will stomp them. So if you look at the classes and what are considered targets (lets consider at least rr5-6 and all RA's up. Since most Assasins are slash, i will assume slash specced and getting at least PA/CD combo off)

Armsman- no
Cabalist- yes
Cleric-mostly no due to never solo
Friar- no
Infiltrator- yes
Mercenary- no
Minstrel- no if pet, maybe if not
Necromancer- hell no
Paladin- nope
Reaver- usually no
Scout-yes
Sorcerer- maybe (if they have max MoC i have seen them LT assasins to death and stay fully healed)
Theurgist-yes
Wizard-yes

Animist- Yes
Bard- Never solo
Blademaster- No
Champion- Hell no
Druid- Never solo
Eldritch- Yes
Enchanter- Yes
Hero-No
Mentalist- Yes
Nightshade- Yes
Ranger- Heh, good luck if you do
Valewalker- risky maybe
Warden- Never solo (if they are goodluck taking 20mins to kill them)

Berserker- No
Bonedancer- No (unless it's obvious they arent supp)
Healer- Never solo
Hunter- yes
Runemaster-yes
Savage-No
Shadowblade- yes
Shaman- Yes if they are the rare solo
Skald- maybe
Spiritmaster- iffy with intercept
Thane- Iffy
Warrior- No

Of the Yes ones, how many of those do you see running around solo? Very few. The fact is the playstyle has shifted and assasins are only vultures because of it, feeding on the scraps left behind from a zerg or fighting eachother (tbh im glad the assassin humping stealth zergs have somewhat stopped, it was tiresome in OF). More than likely, even going after a perfect target is going to result in your death before theirs. Because "perfect targets" for assassins are usually classes that group up. So assassins no longer have perfect targets. They have "slightly less odds stacked against them but still at a high disadvantage targets". This usually means if they get alot of RNG in their favor they can possibly win. But if thats the case, lets just turn DAoC into a slot machine to decide fights. Best RNG wins right?
Wed 24 Jul 2019 4:47 AM by bm01
Isn't that was assassins are supposed to be though? Relatively weak, but with the element of surprise and the ability to choose their targets. They aren't supposed to be the best at duels in my opinion, and a successful PA shouldn't make them automatically win against light and heavy tanks.

It's true that you have less suitable targets than you had on live back in the days, but this is due to the fact that now we know the game, we group more easily... The "meta" changed. You can still find a lot of squishy people trying to reach the BG though.
Wed 24 Jul 2019 11:37 AM by Taniquetil
Of those I've marked any that you ever notice solo really....

And its almost all No's. I went to check out the Bledmeer coastguard the other night and saw no less than 8 Bonedancers running around, it's a problem for sure.

Again, do i want a free win, nope, should it be more challenging and there be some risk to a cloth wearing caster running around if they get PA'd and should they need to try to avoid a PA..... yep.

Duelled Azteqs the other day, PA chain, he used Moc purge etc and it was a crazy fun fight that I had to disengage from, and that's fun and challenging. Respect to this guy, he's a decent player, and damn his smart chainstun pet choice haha.

Armsman- no
Cabalist- yes
Cleric-mostly no due to never solo
Friar- no
Infiltrator- yes
Mercenary- no
Minstrel- no if pet, maybe if not
Necromancer- hell no
Paladin- nope
Reaver- usually no
Scout-yes
Sorcerer- maybe (if they have max MoC i have seen them LT assasins to death and stay fully healed)
Theurgist-yes
Wizard-yes

Animist- Yes
Bard- Never solo
Blademaster- No
Champion- Hell no
Druid- Never solo
Eldritch- Yes
Enchanter- Yes
Hero-No
Mentalist- Yes
Nightshade- Yes
Ranger- Heh, good luck if you do
Valewalker- risky maybe
Warden- Never solo (if they are goodluck taking 20mins to kill them)

Berserker- No
Bonedancer- No (unless it's obvious they arent supp)
Healer- Never solo
Hunter- yes
Runemaster-yes
Savage-No
Shadowblade- yes
Shaman- Yes if they are the rare solo
Skald- maybe
Spiritmaster- iffy with intercept <- I vote No unless low RR. 5+ they're basically invulnerable.
Thane- Iffy
Warrior- No
Wed 24 Jul 2019 8:16 PM by Lillebror
We should just start doing like many already does. Grp up! And when we do that we might as well play visual imo.

I made a slash inf and 50 dw due to i thought most targets would be SB’s. I voted to stay old frontier, i like NF for it quick action at bridges, but its just to much. And it get boring quick either killed quick by some idiot class or fg adding or ganked by higher numbers/adders.
Getting into stealth rvr after task change «nerf» atleast the already high rr got some tools to take some one with them.
Costgarding our own keep is like fighting at DF stairs or outside emain PK. It gets old fast. Im fairly sure that stealth minstrel got a lot less Numbers in there ranks Now due to boats.
Been on 2 weeks holiday and still one week left, cant say i got my normal itch yet.

Best regards
Stasic
Wed 24 Jul 2019 9:10 PM by Turano
Posted this in another thread but I think it fit's here just as well if not better

Sadly I think before we see any significant changes for the better it'll keep going down hill for some longer.
We have not reached the bottom yet, though not through lack of trying. Assas have been significantly nerfed here in multiple core points and the only reason they are at a decent population still is that they mostly fight each other and there the balance is somewhat intact for all 3 classes got similar nerfs.
If the stealther population ever drops under a critical threshold people will see that they have no legitimate targets left.

OF kinda overshadowed that problem. Hordes of rr1 & 2 chars streaming out of the porter keeps in emain to suizide for the rvr task gave everyone enough to do.
Now that this reliable rp source is gone and deathsquads of every color frequent the bridges and docks people realize that It's way harder to kill visible classes than other stealthers of a similar rank. For many of this classes there is not even a point attacking them over a certain rank.
Versus others It's just praying that you can kill them before your stun wears of (or god forbidd, their purge is up).
And others where you don't even have to try attacking if your own purge is not ready because you would never survive their stuns.

That is reality of assassins on phoenix right now.
Nerfed to the last place of all meele classes, PA doing laughable amounts of damage and the chain is only worth it for the stun on the follow up.
Equaly (and in many cases considetably lower) ranked visibles are running around hoping to get jumped by assas because they laugh at them in a straight 1v1.

The only glimmer of hope is that they choose to not implement the detection for MoS, though stealthlore potions and the buffing of archers stealth detection may show a different trend.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 5:32 AM by Druth
Turano wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Jul 2019 9:10 PM
If the stealther population ever drops under a critical threshold people will see that they have no legitimate targets left.

Yeah, if it ever drops below the 15% the 6 out of 39 classes should amount to, then we might have a problem. But they strangely enough continue to be above 20% so lets not panic just yet.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 8:13 AM by Taniquetil
In a group focussed game for some people who do not like grouping, or struggle to find groups you can expect to naturally find more people playing classes that are theoretically more meant for soloing or easy instant afk’ing without letting a group down or requiring communication

Not fixing some fairly heavily imbalanced issues because of this is bad logic and bringing your personal emotional bias in to a debate rather than focussing on the facts.

That coupled with the fact that we are now playing in an even smaller area than OF given the fact that no one moves away from their key home keep unless zerging or in a group and no one leaves the safety of numbers or in many cases even stops holding hands with keep guards, pickings are incredibly slim for everyone.

Slightly off topic but gives context to the problem.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 10:21 AM by Druth
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 8:13 AM
Not fixing some fairly heavily imbalanced issues because of this is bad logic and bringing your personal emotional bias in to a debate rather than focussing on the facts.

I’m sorry, I think I missed the equation you posted that showed assassins were bad is a fact, and not just your own personal emotions.
The facts are that stealthers were popular in Beta, at launch, and still are.
Whatever you and me have of feelings about what should be are just emotions.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:05 PM by Siouxsie
This is the craziest thread ever. Assassins, which are the most powerful stealth class on the server, are asking for more damage!?
As a hunter who frequently eats PAs, anytime lurikeen sidestuns (not sure how they cheat to do this), who has IP3 and Purge and barely wins fights if the RNG is kind, this is the most ridiculous request.

I reiterate my previous requests:

* Make all stealth armor neutral to other stealthers' attacks
* Lower nightshade evade rate to 25% (it's too damned high!)
* Lower the nightshade dot/spell thing (castershades are stupid and ridiculous and not what the game intended)
* Remove Vanish entirely

Nightshades are the biggest problem, and they're whining they don't enough toys.
*shakes head* Crazy...
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:26 PM by Sindralor
How do you constantly eat Perfs when the stealth detection range is the same?
Hunters are very strong right now
If you want to get rid of Vanish get rid of IP aswell

and even then, Tani already demonstrated how awful perfs are
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:52 PM by Taniquetil
I didnt say they were bad, played right they can be mean, and yes arrogant or self aware (you choose the wording you prefer), I think I am one of the better sins on the server. Even I know that currently if I eat a PA there are 2-3 things i need to do to turn the fight and win easily, and that feels cheesy AF, I almost feel guilty doing it because I know it's all but guaranteed victory for me despite me being on the receiving end of a PA. So yeah, I want there to be more jeopardy for me too.

Like i said i still do pretty well, I just see some classes as being so imbalanced currently that I lack any power to have any sort of fun against them even if i substantially outrank them or outplay them. A PA balance, or making it relevant again would benefit things and imho change the meta of people just sitting in keeps all the time waiting for timers.

Otherwise, I just find it jarring that our class defining move that you have to hit many pre requisites/stealth/position/ambush to hit does less damage than 2 BD Instas, 1 necro cast, 2 skald instas or minstrel instas or 1 2h weap swing.

Heres a photo of me getting PA'd and being on "99%" life cos of con debuff whilst my opponent is also on 99 because of my dmg shield so as soon as I apply con debuff we are 100% equally positioned. May as well have just auto attacked.

If you dont see any glaring issue with that in general then I guess we have differing opinions, and thats fine. Last post from me here.

***Edit for sidenote, went too far off topic: however current situation of everyone sitting in their keeps til their timers are up (another issue for another topic) and then bravely running to the closest bridge to vulture stuff means that eating a PA is beneficial to the opponent and means free rp to the recipient rather than a danger, or something to be slightly worried about is....not great, but equally is a problem partly caused by how beneficial it is for these classes to be PA'd in the first place. It means theres very little traffic at all anywhere else, and then concentrates things to groups/stealthzergs etc which exacerbates the problem. Incentivise more roaming, make PAing classes sliiiiightly viable, and tweak balance on a few classes and you should find more fights and less annoyances for everyone.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 4:20 PM by jelzinga_EU
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:52 PM
Heres a photo of me getting PA'd and being on "99%" life cos of con debuff whilst my opponent is also on 99 because of my dmg shield so as soon as I apply con debuff we are 100% equally positioned. May as well have just auto attacked.

To be honest, I kinda feel that you have a different experience than I do when being on the receiving end of a perf. I understand a perf from a SB, who is probably not very high CS on a NS isn't that painful. Being slash-resistant helps a lot. The problem is that a PA on anything resistant / high AF isn't very good.

Hit someone who's weak to slash or doesn't have a ton of PD / AF and it is actually quite painful. Look for example here. My SB gets perfed by a RR9 Slash infiltrator: https://youtu.be/XqnV4rY-kSI . The only reason I won was because healpotions, charges and procs and Mysteri didn't reapply WS/CON-poison properly - but as you can see the damage of the PA-chain is quite good.

A possible solution could be to make perfs (partially) ignore resists/AF/ablatives - so it does hurt no matter what and who you hit. Or make it a %-based attack.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 5:15 PM by Mavella
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 4:20 PM
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:52 PM
Heres a photo of me getting PA'd and being on "99%" life cos of con debuff whilst my opponent is also on 99 because of my dmg shield so as soon as I apply con debuff we are 100% equally positioned. May as well have just auto attacked.

To be honest, I kinda feel that you have a different experience than I do when being on the receiving end of a perf. I understand a perf from a SB, who is probably not very high CS on a NS isn't that painful. Being slash-resistant helps a lot. The problem is that a PA on anything resistant / high AF isn't very good.

Hit someone who's weak to slash or doesn't have a ton of PD / AF and it is actually quite painful. Look for example here. My SB gets perfed by a RR9 Slash infiltrator: https://youtu.be/XqnV4rY-kSI . The only reason I won was because healpotions, charges and procs and Mysteri didn't reapply WS/CON-poison properly - but as you can see the damage of the PA-chain is quite good.

A possible solution could be to make perfs (partially) ignore resists/AF/ablatives - so it does hurt no matter what and who you hit. Or make it a %-based attack.


652 non crit perf is massive though and I'd hardly consider that the norm. I'm assuming that's 50CS combined with slash on mid leather so the best possible scenario. Inf can get away with 50CS with their extra points not gimping DW too hard. I don't think NS or SB are wise to go that high in CS so their perfs will never be that high. I usually eat perfs for about 500-550 from what I'm assuming are 44CS bladeshades.

I run 44CS and mine average around 400 where I usually see 450 on softer or non resistant targets and 350 on chain or plate. The ONLY time I see 650 is on a crit. So yeah unless I crit my perf isn't doing much more damage than the enervate would have reduced their hp anyway which is kind of dumb.
Thu 25 Jul 2019 6:53 PM by Freedomcall
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:05 PM
This is the craziest thread ever. Assassins, which are the most powerful stealth class on the server, are asking for more damage!?
As a hunter who frequently eats PAs, anytime lurikeen sidestuns (not sure how they cheat to do this), who has IP3 and Purge and barely wins fights if the RNG is kind, this is the most ridiculous request.

I reiterate my previous requests:

* Make all stealth armor neutral to other stealthers' attacks
* Lower nightshade evade rate to 25% (it's too damned high!)
* Lower the nightshade dot/spell thing (castershades are stupid and ridiculous and not what the game intended)
* Remove Vanish entirely

Nightshades are the biggest problem, and they're whining they don't enough toys.
*shakes head* Crazy...

This is pathetic....lol
I'm not saying that i'm a good player either, but I suggest you play other realm/classes too, and get more depth on the game.
You should learn and practice how to use side/rear style while dueling, so that you can also reduce the chance your opponent can benefit from it.
What about playing NS yourself for a few? You can learn about your biggest enemy by playing yourself, and also by fighting hunters yourself, you can see how other good hunters play.
Fri 26 Jul 2019 6:47 AM by Numatic
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:05 PM
This is the craziest thread ever. Assassins, which are the most powerful stealth class on the server, are asking for more damage!?
As a hunter who frequently eats PAs, anytime lurikeen sidestuns (not sure how they cheat to do this), who has IP3 and Purge and barely wins fights if the RNG is kind, this is the most ridiculous request.

I reiterate my previous requests:

* Make all stealth armor neutral to other stealthers' attacks
* Lower nightshade evade rate to 25% (it's too damned high!)
* Lower the nightshade dot/spell thing (castershades are stupid and ridiculous and not what the game intended)
* Remove Vanish entirely

Nightshades are the biggest problem, and they're whining they don't enough toys.
*shakes head* Crazy...

This is....I have no words. Either you're not playing to your strengths or you have had alot of very unlucky RNG fights. Hunters are probably the most difficult stealth class I can go up against. With IP, and heal pots, considering an even amount of procs, they are difficult. And if they get their snare off on you, forget it. If u try and nuke them they send their pet on you and kite/bow shot. If you try to melee, they have a basically 75dmg tick dmg add from the pet. I try to keep the pet in front to evade its attacks but the hunter will just run around me and keep the pet at my back. Super frustrating class to fight now that they got their pet buff.
Fri 26 Jul 2019 11:08 AM by inoeth
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:05 PM
This is the craziest thread ever. Assassins, which are the most powerful stealth class on the server, are asking for more damage!?
As a hunter who frequently eats PAs, anytime lurikeen sidestuns (not sure how they cheat to do this), who has IP3 and Purge and barely wins fights if the RNG is kind, this is the most ridiculous request.

I reiterate my previous requests:

* Make all stealth armor neutral to other stealthers' attacks
* Lower nightshade evade rate to 25% (it's too damned high!)
* Lower the nightshade dot/spell thing (castershades are stupid and ridiculous and not what the game intended)
* Remove Vanish entirely

Nightshades are the biggest problem, and they're whining they don't enough toys.
*shakes head* Crazy...

you need to learn how to hunter imo..... i see you complain in /region every day ... minst too strong, ns too stron infi too strong..... everybody is too strong, recently i see you run around in visible grps, i guess because solo you only die... maybe hunter is not the right class for you

atm hunters are not very weak, in fact the are quite strong.
the only thing i would agree with you here is to remove vanish because its used rofl get away and still get rp too often
Sat 27 Jul 2019 1:02 AM by Rhox
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Jul 2019 12:52 PM
I didnt say they were bad, played right they can be mean, and yes arrogant or self aware (you choose the wording you prefer), I think I am one of the better sins on the server. Even I know that currently if I eat a PA there are 2-3 things i need to do to turn the fight and win easily, and that feels cheesy AF, I almost feel guilty doing it because I know it's all but guaranteed victory for me despite me being on the receiving end of a PA. So yeah, I want there to be more jeopardy for me too.

Like i said i still do pretty well, I just see some classes as being so imbalanced currently that I lack any power to have any sort of fun against them even if i substantially outrank them or outplay them. A PA balance, or making it relevant again would benefit things and imho change the meta of people just sitting in keeps all the time waiting for timers.

Otherwise, I just find it jarring that our class defining move that you have to hit many pre requisites/stealth/position/ambush to hit does less damage than 2 BD Instas, 1 necro cast, 2 skald instas or minstrel instas or 1 2h weap swing.

Heres a photo of me getting PA'd and being on "99%" life cos of con debuff whilst my opponent is also on 99 because of my dmg shield so as soon as I apply con debuff we are 100% equally positioned. May as well have just auto attacked.

If you dont see any glaring issue with that in general then I guess we have differing opinions, and thats fine. Last post from me here.

***Edit for sidenote, went too far off topic: however current situation of everyone sitting in their keeps til their timers are up (another issue for another topic) and then bravely running to the closest bridge to vulture stuff means that eating a PA is beneficial to the opponent and means free rp to the recipient rather than a danger, or something to be slightly worried about is....not great, but equally is a problem partly caused by how beneficial it is for these classes to be PA'd in the first place. It means theres very little traffic at all anywhere else, and then concentrates things to groups/stealthzergs etc which exacerbates the problem. Incentivise more roaming, make PAing classes sliiiiightly viable, and tweak balance on a few classes and you should find more fights and less annoyances for everyone.

After fighting you twice I don't think there are 2 or 3 things you need to do to win.... you litterly just turned and killed me /facepalm bladeshade ;-)
Sat 27 Jul 2019 3:24 AM by Taniquetil
Rhox wrote: After fighting you twice I don't think there are 2 or 3 things you need to do to win.... you litterly just turned and killed me /facepalm bladeshade ;-)

It gets better as you rank up. And be quick to reapply poisons after I purge, you left me undebuffed thats gonna hurt. Keep it up 👍
Sat 27 Jul 2019 1:23 PM by lannchilds
Taniquetil wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Jul 2019 3:24 AM
Rhox wrote: After fighting you twice I don't think there are 2 or 3 things you need to do to win.... you litterly just turned and killed me /facepalm bladeshade ;-)

It gets better as you rank up. And be quick to reapply poisons after I purge, you left me undebuffed thats gonna hurt. Keep it up 👍

Tani is a tough kill for sure
Sat 27 Jul 2019 9:40 PM by Irkeno
I killed Tani.

Once.


Anyone wants an autograph, PM me.
Mon 29 Jul 2019 4:55 PM by vxr
Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:23 PM
I have to say I didn't have much problems, especially with my SB. But that was more of a specc thing. I said it multiple times and I will say it again. LA > CS

You are talking about being 50 CS and getting also PA chain on a NS. Well, PA gives you no big advantage on this server, especially vs. Tanks. PA damage is not high on this server and more and more people are catching up to the Abla charge. With my NS I PA'd a few SB's over the weekend and did like 450, max 500 damage. Taking 150 damage of from Abla, you have like 300-350 damage. If the target is a chain wearer, PA does a lot less damage. Maybe like 350? Taking Abla again, the damage is 200.

WS/Con debuff reduces health around 330. So basically your PA gets fully neglected from your debuff. The only thing you have is maybe 50 damage bonus, because your PA destroys the Abla, while the enemy Assassin will hit you for like 100-130 damage from his style, unless he tried to PA too and only does unstyled it will be less. Always depends if he has a quick or slow weapon as opener. So basically vs. other Assassin, even if you land PA you are practically both at the same health at this moment. And if he purges CD you will have to reapply poison, giving him even an advantage for a short moment.

As for fighting tanks or melees in general, I can only give you the advice to have 39 axe and open with the 34% haste debuff. You can ask Kemy here how annoying that is. It helps a lot vs. BM/Merc or 2h Tanks. Get damage add charge on for a huge damage boost and you are pretty much good to go.

Sure, you will never win every fight because there is too much random going on and I feel lately it is getting worse.

I don't see a class that is really unbeatable as a SB. Especially since you don't have to fight a stupid class like SM.

That last line really hurt my feelings =/
Tue 30 Jul 2019 9:04 PM by Saroi
vxr wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Jul 2019 4:55 PM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 8:23 PM
I have to say I didn't have much problems, especially with my SB. But that was more of a specc thing. I said it multiple times and I will say it again. LA > CS

You are talking about being 50 CS and getting also PA chain on a NS. Well, PA gives you no big advantage on this server, especially vs. Tanks. PA damage is not high on this server and more and more people are catching up to the Abla charge. With my NS I PA'd a few SB's over the weekend and did like 450, max 500 damage. Taking 150 damage of from Abla, you have like 300-350 damage. If the target is a chain wearer, PA does a lot less damage. Maybe like 350? Taking Abla again, the damage is 200.

WS/Con debuff reduces health around 330. So basically your PA gets fully neglected from your debuff. The only thing you have is maybe 50 damage bonus, because your PA destroys the Abla, while the enemy Assassin will hit you for like 100-130 damage from his style, unless he tried to PA too and only does unstyled it will be less. Always depends if he has a quick or slow weapon as opener. So basically vs. other Assassin, even if you land PA you are practically both at the same health at this moment. And if he purges CD you will have to reapply poison, giving him even an advantage for a short moment.

As for fighting tanks or melees in general, I can only give you the advice to have 39 axe and open with the 34% haste debuff. You can ask Kemy here how annoying that is. It helps a lot vs. BM/Merc or 2h Tanks. Get damage add charge on for a huge damage boost and you are pretty much good to go.

Sure, you will never win every fight because there is too much random going on and I feel lately it is getting worse.

I don't see a class that is really unbeatable as a SB. Especially since you don't have to fight a stupid class like SM.

That last line really hurt my feelings =/

I am sorry. Use that to kill some poor Luri's.
Wed 31 Jul 2019 6:18 PM by Anelyn77
Rng will always play a huge part in outcome of those fights, what you can do as a player is try to minimize it's effects with knowledge, reaction time, being ahead 1 move of your opponent, and being calm / not panicking if you get opened on.

/Aicha's family of toons <3
Wed 31 Jul 2019 6:53 PM by t4coops
the ONLY advice to you, if your having trouble on assassin, is to find a different game to play
Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:00 PM by Sindralor
any advice on which game i can play
i really liked guild wars 2
Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:58 PM by Tamy
Sindralor wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:00 PM
any advice on which game i can play
i really liked guild wars 2

You have to stay and play Scout, OP class.
Wed 31 Jul 2019 9:04 PM by Irkeno
Sindralor wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:00 PM
any advice on which game i can play
i really liked guild wars 2

Let's sub to Everquest.
Sat 3 Aug 2019 6:10 PM by Lillebror
I put my money on wow classic at end of month
Sat 3 Aug 2019 8:36 PM by Turano
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 6:10 PM
I put my money on wow classic at end of month
dito
Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:10 PM by Druth
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 6:10 PM
I put my money on wow classic at end of month

WoW has legendary PvP.
Sun 4 Aug 2019 1:44 AM by Cadebrennus
Druth wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 9:10 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Aug 2019 6:10 PM
I put my money on wow classic at end of month

WoW has legendary PvP.

WoW PvP took a nosedive when battlegrounds were introduced because it took the focus off of world PvP.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 4:44 AM by gotwqqd
Did something happen in a year that brought assassins out of what this thread supposes?

It seems that assassins fear no class and will instigate a fight with all if the opportunity for no “adds” is there
Thu 8 Oct 2020 5:10 AM by ExcretusMaximus
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 4:44 AM
Did something happen in a year that brought assassins out of what this thread supposes?

It seems that assassins fear no class and will instigate a fight with all if the opportunity for no “adds” is there

Massive buffs like 4 or 5 months ago.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 5:32 AM by gotwqqd
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 5:10 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 4:44 AM
Did something happen in a year that brought assassins out of what this thread supposes?

It seems that assassins fear no class and will instigate a fight with all if the opportunity for no “adds” is there

Massive buffs like 4 or 5 months ago.
Yea the con debuff fix and stacking bleeds

But even before that I thought the classes could be toned down a bit
Thu 8 Oct 2020 6:14 AM by Noashakra
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 4:44 AM
Did something happen in a year that brought assassins out of what this thread supposes?

It seems that assassins fear no class and will instigate a fight with all if the opportunity for no “adds” is there

There are many targets that I know will be /rel even if I PA successfuly.
Zerk solo spec 7/8L+ / Friar 5L+ / Merc 2L+ / BD 4L+ if spec right / ministrel / Thane 6/7L+ / Reaver 6L+
Any class with MoC and drain, I need vanish up if they drop it.
So I don't know, it's already a lot of counters no?
Thu 8 Oct 2020 5:04 PM by ughsmash
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 6:14 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 4:44 AM
Did something happen in a year that brought assassins out of what this thread supposes?

It seems that assassins fear no class and will instigate a fight with all if the opportunity for no “adds” is there

There are many targets that I know will be /rel even if I PA successfuly.
Zerk solo spec 7/8L+ / Friar 5L+ / Merc 2L+ / BD 4L+ if spec right / ministrel / Thane 6/7L+ / Reaver 6L+
Any class with MoC and drain, I need vanish up if they drop it.
So I don't know, it's already a lot of counters no?

Agreed. I don't know that anyone could say Assassins are op. Just look at any bridge and you will see a tank class standing in the middle just waiting to be jumped. A lot of the tank classes will just smash you with their RAs up.

As an Infiltrator I am putting every point into winning a 1v1, but IP, a higher damage table, more health, better armor is a lot to overcome. Bleeds, the opener, and poisons do make it a fun and pretty fair fight though.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 7:49 PM by darkstar00
Yeah assassins aren't OP, that would be reavers.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 8:35 PM by ExcretusMaximus
"Assassins aren't OP."

Yeah, that's why there are so many of them, because they suck.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 8:38 PM by darkstar00
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 8:35 PM
"Assassins aren't OP."

Yeah, that's why there are so many of them, because they suck.

More archers than assassins.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 8:43 PM by LolaEbola
Did I miss something? There’s been a real crusade against stealthers this past week or so, and I really can’t figure out why.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 9:12 PM by Delsaer
With the keep fight changes and albs having strength relics locked in and lots of people having their new scout/mins from the pvp event people are really noticing the alb stealthzerg a lot more. 😬
Thu 8 Oct 2020 9:40 PM by Freedomcall
LolaEbola wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 8:43 PM
Did I miss something? There’s been a real crusade against stealthers this past week or so, and I really can’t figure out why.

Assassins have been the classes that get the most hatred. Always.
Not a recent thing.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 9:48 PM by LolaEbola
Well, sure, but looking at the forum, it has certainly been *more* directed at stealthers in general, recently.

Hell, there was one thread calling for the complete removal of ALL stealthers.
Thu 8 Oct 2020 10:14 PM by darkstar00
LolaEbola wrote: ↑
Thu 8 Oct 2020 9:48 PM
Well, sure, but looking at the forum, it has certainly been *more* directed at stealthers in general, recently.

Hell, there was one thread calling for the complete removal of ALL stealthers.

Remove an original class from a 20 year old game, do people really listen to what they say? I see plenty of zergs, small mans, etc out in RVR. Stealthers are hardly an issue... maybe an uptick due to the event.... oh fucking well, is what it is.
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