Even if you go full Bow spec your damage will not be significantly higher than your current spec. Whilst I agree that there are issues with archery, there is a very fine line that needs to be walked, if the damage is increased too much, then there will be a flood of new archers, and the volunteer devs will then be deluged with constant complaints, so personally I would prefer them to add extra utility deep into archery that justifies spending 40+ points into it. As to your example, yes it is annoying when I have to attempt 4 arrows at someone, as that usually ends up one of two ways, me running and stealthing, or dead ;-), but there have been enough occasions where I have hit my target for 1k+ damage on my critshot to compensate for that.Jabberwockie wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 3:19 AMWhen I have to shoot a caster 4-5 times and still not kill them, than something is broken. They run back to their group and get healed. I'm 40 +14 bow using a 16.5 DPS 5.0 speed bow with 312 dex. So you tell me what the problem is here.
Archery is broken here unless you want to go full bow spec which leaves you unable to defend in melee.
Wow, what incredibly condescending reply. How do you "learn" to compensate for RNG that can result in missed critshots or the follow up normal shots, or critshots that inexplicably turn into normal shots for no apparent reason or just for low initial damage critshots, or the ever annoying dropping out of stealth as you try for your initial shot resulting in you being seen by the caster? Unless by learning you mean role a hunter and send your speeding pet on to the caster to try to interrupt their casting...inoeth wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 8:58 AMArchery is not broken! Maybe learn how to shoot casters...
rr7 hunter
cere2 wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 10:40 PMCrit shot should pierce BT, not pop it, but pierce through it.
It should also never pop you out of stealth...
It should not be block-able/evade-able/parried.
Actually I have stated that I want reasons to spec higher in Bow, not just a DPS increase. As I stated in my original post in this thread there is a very fine line to be walked, personally I would rather have more utility added to bows at 40+ than extra DPS.
I don't believe that is the only issue, then again I actually play an archer, albeit as an Alt, but I do agree that the damage itself is fine, the Devs cannot increase the DPS of archers without that change substantially increasing the number of archers.Lumarin wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 10:37 PMThe only issue that archers currently have is dropping stealth too often when nocking an arrow. Damage is fine and in a lot of situations exceptional currently
I believe that piercing the BT bubble should be reserved for higher Bow skill as an incentive to spec highly in bow. I do agree that an opening shot to remove BT that causes zero damage should not drop you out of stealth.cere2 wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 10:40 PMI don't think it's the damage that needs adjusted. It's honestly the abilities that kill our entire spec line.
Crit shot should pierce BT, not pop it, but pierce through it.
It should also never pop you out of stealth...
It should not be block-able/evade-able/parried.
Also, arrows should not cause procs the same way spells don't cause procs.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 14 Jul 2019 8:28 AMI don't believe that is the only issue, then again I actually play an archerLumarin wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 10:37 PMThe only issue that archers currently have is dropping stealth too often when nocking an arrow. Damage is fine and in a lot of situations exceptional currently
Fair enough, I must have got you confused with someone else with a similar name on these forums.Lumarin wrote: ↑Sun 14 Jul 2019 5:25 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Sun 14 Jul 2019 8:28 AMI don't believe that is the only issue, then again I actually play an archerLumarin wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 10:37 PMThe only issue that archers currently have is dropping stealth too often when nocking an arrow. Damage is fine and in a lot of situations exceptional currently
I'm a higher RR scout than you are and play it as my main, lol
Hejjin wrote: ↑Sun 14 Jul 2019 7:14 PMFair enough, I must have got you confused with someone else with a similar name on these forums.
Ah, so I should lookup everyone on the herald before I comment? As I stated, I mistook you for someone I had encountered in another thread, a person that was theorycrafting about classes they did not play.Lumarin wrote: ↑Sun 14 Jul 2019 8:29 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Sun 14 Jul 2019 7:14 PMFair enough, I must have got you confused with someone else with a similar name on these forums.
Maybe some attention to detail would be more helpful to your cause than reciting your bullet points and blindly dismissing everyone that disagrees. This is why archer complaints aren't being heard.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:30 AMAs for attention to detail, I reviewed the Herald, yes you are higher RR than my alt, but you have less than half my solo kills, so obviously we play our archers very differently. Perhaps that difference in playing style influences our views on archers.
HmmmLumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:47 AMHejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:30 AMAs for attention to detail, I reviewed the Herald, yes you are higher RR than my alt, but you have less than half my solo kills, so obviously we play our archers very differently. Perhaps that difference in playing style influences our views on archers.
Sure, you think a class with a kit centered around group utility should be better at soloing. There's absolutely zero reason why that makes sense, scouts are already very strong at what they do. They don't need to be stronger at anything else.
What has zero sense is you turning this into an argument about scouts soloing. Good work.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:47 AMIt's no one's fault but your own that you aren't utilizing your scout to the best of their ability, and calling for balance changes to fix that for you is silly.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:14 AMHmmm
If you had attention to detail, you would have noticed that I have stated I want changes to archery, for all 3 classes, to encourage people to spec higher in Bow, I have stated that I do not believe that archers need more spec points, and that I do not believe they need a significant increase in DPS. Above 35 Bow, archery is distinctly lacking in flavour and performance
Hejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:14 AMWhat has zero sense is you turning this into an argument about scouts soloing. Good work.
I stated lacking in flavour and performance. Currently there is very little reason to spec higher than 35 Bow, and what I would like are changes that provide a form of incentive to spec higher than that. I stated in my opening reply that I thought there is a very fine line that the devs have to walk, I also stated I would prefer extra utility over a dps increase for any changes to 40+ bow.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:25 AMMy attention to detail here is telling me that you saying archers don't need a "significant increase in DPS" and that any spec above 35 bow is "lacking in performance" seems to indicate that you do indeed think that bow should do more damage - it shouldn't. If you view archers through the lens you should be viewing them through, which is support DPS and structure offense/defense - they perform exceptionally in every important metric. If you want more utility and more "flavour," there are plenty of classes designed to perform under those metrics.
Indeed I did, but I also stated the following : Perhaps that difference in playing style influences our views on archers.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 10:05 AMI stated lacking in flavour and performance. Currently there is very little reason to spec higher than 35 Bow, and what I would like are changes that provide a form of incentive to spec higher than that. I stated in my opening reply that I thought there is a very fine line that the devs have to walk, I also stated I would prefer extra utility over a dps increase for any changes to 40+ bow.
Please show me where I have requested adding absurd imbalance to the game? The only one spouting complete and utter nonsense is you, As for me not understanding the class, or being bored with archers, neither is accurate. We have different play-styles, and obviously vastly different opinions on archers.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 6:15 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 10:05 AMI stated lacking in flavour and performance. Currently there is very little reason to spec higher than 35 Bow, and what I would like are changes that provide a form of incentive to spec higher than that. I stated in my opening reply that I thought there is a very fine line that the devs have to walk, I also stated I would prefer extra utility over a dps increase for any changes to 40+ bow.
And there's absolutely zero reason for archers to get more utility when we are already extremely effective at what we're supposed to do. Putting absurd imbalance into the game to cure your boredom with a class that you don't fundamentally understand is not in the best interest of the game. I don't know how much more clearly I can state that for you.... It's obvious that you don't enjoy archers - great, acknowledge it and move on, don't play one! That's fine. Don't echo chamber every archer thread with nonsense trying to break the class, they're already 100% fine as they are and adding anything to them will break the class.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 10:05 AMPlease show me where I have requested adding absurd imbalance to the game? The only one spouting complete and utter nonsense is you, As for me not understanding the class, or being bored with archers, neither is accurate. We have different play-styles, and obviously vastly different opinions on archers.
Where did I say I do not want to solo? I enjoyed soloing on my Scout, it was the entire motivation behind playing the class. The only thing I am bored with is new frontiers, but that has nothing to do with why I believe archery is lacking.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:01 PMAdding anything to bow will imbalance archers. You are asking to add something to the bow line - therefore, you are asking to imbalance the game.
Your motivations remain unclear. As of now you've told me it's not because you want to solo. Not because you're bored with archers. Not because you think they need more damage. Not because you don't understand your role.
Okay, so what justifiable reason do you have to add anything to the bow line then?
State your reasoning as plain as you can and stop being obtuse.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:40 PMWhere did I say I do not want to solo? I enjoyed soloing on my Scout, it was the entire motivation behind playing the class. The only thing I am bored with is new frontiers, but that has nothing to do with why I believe archery is lacking.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:01 PMAdding anything to bow will imbalance archers. You are asking to add something to the bow line - therefore, you are asking to imbalance the game.
Your motivations remain unclear. As of now you've told me it's not because you want to solo. Not because you're bored with archers. Not because you think they need more damage. Not because you don't understand your role.
Okay, so what justifiable reason do you have to add anything to the bow line then?
State your reasoning as plain as you can and stop being obtuse.
I am hardly being obtuse, I have stated repeatedly that I want archery changed so that there is an incentive to spec higher in bow, at the moment there is the very underwhelming 40 and 45 point abilities, and absolutely nothing at all for 50 points. From testing there is a grand total of 55 points difference between the max critshot of 35 and 50 Bow, which is why so many archers spec so heavily into melee abilities. I don't believe that archers should get a significant damage increase because that would indeed be too much and would lead to a flood of new archers, which I what I stated earlier in this thread, ideally I would have preferred for longshot and volley to be added to bow between 40 and 50, but it is now too late to change that, just as it is too late to address the damage gradient of critshot.
Personally I would be satisfied with a level 50 ability that modified volley so that all arrows land at the same time (on different targets). For me that would be enough for me to spec 50 into bow. Hell I would be satisfied with speccing 50 bow if it makes it impossible for you to break stealth when aiming your initial shot...
Did you fail to notice I stated it was too late to change the damage gradient of critshot? I admit that I find it strange that speccing 70% of the way into Bow equates to approximately 94% of the max possible critshot damage. That has resulted in the majority of archers speccing very heavily into melee abilities as there is little requirement or incentive to spec higher in Bow, this in turn helps to limit any possible changes to archery.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:06 PMThis is perfectly in line with every other physical damage spec in the game though... Why is it even a talking point that 35 -> 50 bow is "only 50 more damage on a crit" if you don't want to change the damage of bow? That's irrelevant if you don't want to change those numbers. FWIW, 50 damage is quite significant in DAOC but that doesn't fit your narrative, does it?
As far as I can tell you're complaining about the state of archers because your fantasy is a retroactive redesign of the entire class.
Wow, yet again an incredibly condescending reply. Again I will state we have different play-styles, but out of the two of us, I am the only one that is not telling the other how they should play their class, or even play another class. Obviously you believe you have some profound insight into how to play an archer. I am far from the only person than has expressed concern about the state of archery.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:06 PM.. Again, maybe the bow line is just not for you? It's a pure damage spec and is exceptional at pure dps at high range. If that's not what you want - if you think you should have MORE incentive to spec it, then again I say maybe you're just missing the entire point of the bow line and perhaps are better suited to a high range caster with utility?
I know, which is why I only added it as a light hearted aside, though I have to point out the blindingly obvious it is only archers that have a chance to lose stealth just on readying their initial attack.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:06 PMPopping out of stealth when nocking an arrow is the one and only thing I will agree with you on, but that has nothing to do with bow line and everything to do with how stealth works here. Stealth is entirely different discussion from bow line and bringing that into a discussion on archers just serves to muddy the waters.
Jabberwockie wrote: ↑Sat 13 Jul 2019 3:19 AMWhen I have to shoot a caster 4-5 times and still not kill them, than something is broken. They run back to their group and get healed. I'm 40 +14 bow using a 16.5 DPS 5.0 speed bow with 312 dex. So you tell me what the problem is here.
Archery is broken here unless you want to go full bow spec which leaves you unable to defend in melee.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:42 PMWow, yet again an incredibly condescending reply. Again I will state we have different play-styles, but out of the two of us, I am the only one that is not telling the other how they should play their class, or even play another class. Obviously you believe you have some profound insight into how to play an archer. I am far from the only person than has expressed concern about the state of archery.
Really? I believe that is as accurate as your claims that I don't want to solo and that I want to add "absurd imbalance into the game to cure your boredom with a class that you don't fundamentally understand".Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:56 PMYou reap what you sow - you are condescending to every single person you interact with.
Or they play their archers totally different to you and so have a different perspective on the classes. Obviously you believe your perspective on archers is the correct one.Lumarin wrote: ↑Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:56 PMMost people expressing concern with the state of archery have wildly unrealistic expectations.
Carry on.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:31 AMOr they play their archers totally different to you and so have a different perspective on the classes. Obviously you believe your perspective on archers is the correct one.
Lumarin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:13 AMHejjin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 2:31 AMOr they play their archers totally different to you and so have a different perspective on the classes. Obviously you believe your perspective on archers is the correct one.
Mine is the one that keeps everyone that isn't an archer from quitting the game.
cere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:01 AMYeah because so many people dying to archer's.
Additional abilities at higher bow spec won't break the game.
Why? Because with higher bow spec=lower melee spec/shield spec/PF spec etc.
To say that additional utility would break the game...kinda made me chuckle
So relegated to finishing off the scraps.Lumarin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 5:55 AMcere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:01 AMYeah because so many people dying to archer's.
Additional abilities at higher bow spec won't break the game.
Why? Because with higher bow spec=lower melee spec/shield spec/PF spec etc.
To say that additional utility would break the game...kinda made me chuckle
More than enough people are dying to archers, yes. It's pretty easy to kill a caster in a keep siege through heals as a solo archer right now, and you want more?
Add another 5-6 archers to every keep siege/defense and see how people respond to that - they're fed up with that in under a week, guaranteed. It's already bad enough as it is as you can tell by the hib zerg numbers diminishing into nothing because casters can't siege keeps in NF.
Adding more archers to this game is the death of the RvR population - they're quite simply one of the strongest classes right now and it's a shame you don't see that as a ranger. This is about more than just bolstering the archers that exist on the server already. Changes have implications beyond the population that currently exists in game and a class built for defense and oppression in sieges being more common is the last thing a dying server needs.
The number of archers I see coming out to sieges is going up and up and I'd put money down on the fact that volley gets nerfed soon - reasonably so.
Lumarin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 5:55 AMcere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:01 AMYeah because so many people dying to archer's.
Additional abilities at higher bow spec won't break the game.
Why? Because with higher bow spec=lower melee spec/shield spec/PF spec etc.
To say that additional utility would break the game...kinda made me chuckle
More than enough people are dying to archers, yes. It's pretty easy to kill a caster in a keep siege through heals as a solo archer right now, and you want more?
Add another 5-6 archers to every keep siege/defense and see how people respond to that - they're fed up with that in under a week, guaranteed. It's already bad enough as it is as you can tell by the hib zerg numbers diminishing into nothing because casters can't siege keeps in NF.
Adding more archers to this game is the death of the RvR population - they're quite simply one of the strongest classes right now and it's a shame you don't see that as a ranger. This is about more than just bolstering the archers that exist on the server already. Changes have implications beyond the population that currently exists in game and a class built for defense and oppression in sieges being more common is the last thing a dying server needs.
The number of archers I see coming out to sieges is going up and up and I'd put money down on the fact that volley gets nerfed soon - reasonably so.
cere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 10:20 PMMore people creating archer's is the end all be all of Daoc, where did I hear that before? Oh yeah, Live. That must be the reason so many people left after what 18 years?
Caster's are dying in a keep siege because of all the archers, what about Tank's dying in keep siege's to casters?
If more people make casters it's the end all of Daoc!
So if a hunter specs 39 spear 40 bc 35 bow now.....but they gave some utility to specing higher in bow he may spec 45 bow 26 spear 32 bc, thus making him a weakling in melee, and also lowering his ability to self buff beyond buff pots.
Apparently you are misinterpreting the thread as wanting more damage, when its actually about having a reason to spec 45 or 50 bow.
Maybe I am missing something here, maybe hunters/rangers/scouts have never killed casters in melee?
Lumarin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:23 PMcere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 10:20 PMMore people creating archer's is the end all be all of Daoc, where did I hear that before? Oh yeah, Live. That must be the reason so many people left after what 18 years?
Caster's are dying in a keep siege because of all the archers, what about Tank's dying in keep siege's to casters?
If more people make casters it's the end all of Daoc!
So if a hunter specs 39 spear 40 bc 35 bow now.....but they gave some utility to specing higher in bow he may spec 45 bow 26 spear 32 bc, thus making him a weakling in melee, and also lowering his ability to self buff beyond buff pots.
Apparently you are misinterpreting the thread as wanting more damage, when its actually about having a reason to spec 45 or 50 bow.
Maybe I am missing something here, maybe hunters/rangers/scouts have never killed casters in melee?
Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly - yes it's a balance - and yes adding anything to archers will disrupt that balance.
Aside from that, comparing this server to live holds virtually no relevance here. I'd bet at least half the people here haven't played live in at least 5 years. Probably 10
As for misinterpreting the thread as wanting more damage - the name of the thread is "Archer bow damage still to low"
lol, not sure what else to say. Who is misinterpreting again?
cere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:30 PMTouche about the thread, guess I was just reading the responses about more utility rather than damage.
I would agree no damage needed past what we have, but added utility would not break any balance, it would create more..
Lumarin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:33 PMcere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:30 PMTouche about the thread, guess I was just reading the responses about more utility rather than damage.
I would agree no damage needed past what we have, but added utility would not break any balance, it would create more..
Right, well this was my entire original point. Highjacking every thread that somebody starts about bow damage to talk about utility MUDDIES THE WATERS. It's literally a daily discussion here, in alb /advice, everywhere.
Then you try to derail ME by saying I'm the one misinterpreting. Don't you understand why this is toxic? Please, we have more sense than this.
BOW DAMAGE IS FINE.
cere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:40 PM"Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly - yes it's a balance - and yes adding anything to archers will disrupt that balance."
That statement there is what I disagree with. And adding utility would not disrupt balance.
Lumarin wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:44 PMcere2 wrote: ↑Tue 16 Jul 2019 11:40 PM"Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly - yes it's a balance - and yes adding anything to archers will disrupt that balance."
That statement there is what I disagree with. And adding utility would not disrupt balance.
There are bigger fish to fry here than bow utility. If you can't see that, your daoc phoenix world view is too limited.
Adding anything to archery is delicate - spending time on it is very low priority. Doing it in a way that won't draw more players to archer classes to exacerbate the population crisis the server is having is not a long term solution. It's a short term solution that only benefits archers that are bored doing what they do - which again, and frankly, is unimportant to the future of the server right now.
You need to look big picture and try to understand how adding anything to archers will be received by the population right now. It wouldn't be pretty.
cere2 wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 12:05 AMPopulation crisis? This doomsday shit I keep hearing is dribble. Population decrease is going to happen regardless of what happens. It's the life of all free-shards.
I heard it about changing the buff pots...server will die, changing to NF...server will die. Reducing salvage loot...server will die.
Things need to change for the better to keep population interested, things that don't change end up being like that other free-shard.
Putting a blanket over archers in general is just as bad as putting a blanket over any class that may need improvements.
I agree there are a lot of bugs that need fixing etc, but that doesn't mean people cannot propose suggestions to help classes utilize unused specs..not just archers
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:06 AMProbably one of the biggest reasons that Archers are asking for something, anything, in the bow line is because they are literally the only classes in the game that are nerfed RA-wise. They don't have the OF PD, and they don't have the NF MoS. Archers need one of them to help balance them out but they have neither. They are in an RA limbo between two sets of patches, something no other class faces as far as I'm aware of. This is why Archers are asking for anything in the Archery line to help them out. I'd rather see Archers get their RAs back.
Sepplord wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:39 AMCadebrennus wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:06 AMProbably one of the biggest reasons that Archers are asking for something, anything, in the bow line is because they are literally the only classes in the game that are nerfed RA-wise. They don't have the OF PD, and they don't have the NF MoS. Archers need one of them to help balance them out but they have neither. They are in an RA limbo between two sets of patches, something no other class faces as far as I'm aware of. This is why Archers are asking for anything in the Archery line to help them out. I'd rather see Archers get their RAs back.
no dodger, no charge, VP nerfed hard?
Come on, you are better informed than that
Yea catastrophic. Talk about hyperboleLumarin wrote: ↑Wed 17 Jul 2019 10:52 PM
I'm not going to quote your whole post, but bingo. Glad to see some people understand why adding to archers would be catastrophic.
If we're being really, objectively honest about the state of the game, the only change archers need is a volley nerf. Don't push your luck, archers.
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