MoArcane and Buff pots - Phoenix Freeshard

Can we get some rationale as to why MoArcane is increasing buff pot values? It seems to me the intended nature of this ability is to increase casted self and conc buffs. Not those coming out of a bottle. Any input from the devs would be appreciated.

And just to elaborate on my point.

Why is it OK for some classes to get the benefit of Aug str/con/dex/qui 4( at a minimum without factoring in actual self buffs that might be boosted) for 20 pts when it would take others 28 pts to get that benefit because this is boosting potions. Obviously if they are high in their self buffs those will get increased substantially as well. I don't understand this as it is essentially a double dip and allows a select few classes to get pre-charge nerf stats for relatively minimal investment.

Tue 18 Jun 2019 6:40 AM by Mavella

Bump would still appreciate some input on this.

Tue 18 Jun 2019 7:28 AM by chois

Thank you mavella i was thinking i was the only one to see the little problem

Tue 18 Jun 2019 8:01 AM by Sepplord

Mavella wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Jun 2019 5:17 AM
Why is it OK for some classes to get the benefit of Aug str/con/dex/qui 4( at a minimum without factoring in actual self buffs that might be boosted) for 20 pts when it would take others 28 pts to get that benefit because this is boosting potions.

Not saying this is completely fine, but one thing to consider is that it's like buying a bundle and get a discount for it

who specs aug con?
who speccs aug str on an archer?

the stats aren't useless, but they are only specced with leftover points if people don't want to respecc realm every 1or2 RLs
by speccing MOA you get more stats/RP but you can't specialize and also get some semi-usefull stats

Tue 18 Jun 2019 9:21 AM by inoeth

even though moa is much cheaper than specing all augX simultaniously, imo its a waste of points.since aug con doesnt really give you a benefit and also your dex/quick selfbuff as an archer is overcaped pretty soon ... so you actually only really benefit from better str which is not very important for archers...

Tue 18 Jun 2019 10:18 AM by chois

For a blade ranger i don t think the strengh is useless...

Tue 18 Jun 2019 10:45 AM by Sepplord

chois wrote: ↑
Tue 18 Jun 2019 10:18 AM
For a blade ranger i don t think the strengh is useless...

you are right, for a bladeranger dex becomes the low-worth stat

still 2stats (con + (str or dex)) are not worth putting realmpoints in for archers

Tue 18 Jun 2019 1:47 PM by Mavella

I mean even blade rangers benefit from the dex for evade purposes and I'm sure they pull the bow out every once in a while I'm sure. Assuming 4 hp/con that's a dot tick or 2 extra offhand swings from an SB. Extra con also boosts the effectiveness of IP albeit minorly. Also not everyone invests in their red self buffs so some may get absolute max benefit while those with the reds might not. That I understand.

As an SB I'd strongly consider spending 20 points to get 28 points of RA benefit because its hard to argue against an overall stat boost like that. Take that 8 points saved and you're able to boost a stat of your choice another +17 with one to spare.

If the RA is to stay as it is give it to all so everyone can choose to invest in improving their overall stats if they desire or fix the functionality as it was likely intended(self and conc buffs only.)

Tue 18 Jun 2019 2:26 PM by Campjr

Either remove it working on buff pots or give everyone MoArcane option

Tue 25 Jun 2019 11:45 AM by songfire

Is this still a thing?

Tue 25 Jun 2019 2:28 PM by Mavella

songfire wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 11:45 AM
Is this still a thing?

As far as I'm aware, yes.

Tue 2 Jul 2019 5:38 PM by Mavella

Bump again. Why is this stupidity allowed to persist?

Wed 3 Jul 2019 9:07 AM by Druth

Does MoA still affect debuffing?

Anyway, does seem a bit weird to me that it affects pot stats.
I think the best workaround would be to just remove it from all but the normal buff classes (sham, heal, cler, friar, drui, ward, bard).
It would even have the added benefit of being a buff to Albion, small one, but one none the less. And also an indirect buff to scout, because it would make ranger/hunter marginally worse.

Sat 13 Jul 2019 4:09 PM by Mavella

Hi

Sat 13 Jul 2019 4:13 PM by florin

Wait til you find out that moarcane also boosts pali AF chant.

Sat 13 Jul 2019 4:49 PM by Anelyn77

Now that you can stack buff pots / combi x2, makes it even better to grab Moarcane if you solo.

/Neptunia + Aicha (Aichaa, Aichas) + Bnot

Sat 13 Jul 2019 5:20 PM by Kemoauc

I think you make it sound better than it actually is.

You do not get as much qui as you get str by speccing MoA which already reduces the points gap by 3 pts . Then qui is probably worse than getting mastery of arms which could save you some more points. I can't do the math as I'm on the road and on my phone. You can also save another 3 points by going toughness instead of aug con if I see that right and you would even get more HP out of it. The point difference is now pretty much gone already. However I assume the af buff in the buffpot would be increased as well which you didnt take into account.

Also stats generally appear to be pretty irrelevant for defenses. I just played around with that in duels and my block/parry rates against a buffed target move by a comparably tiny amount (1-2%) with vs without buffpot which is a 107 dex difference. Same appears to be the case for evade - assuming the combatlog is right.

I don't think I would ever get MoA if it would not also Improve my AF as well, i. e. probably only classes with selfbuffs actually have a reason to spec it IF it also boosts buffpotions. Generally, you're be better off just getting flat HP, active RA's and/or get damage from other sources.

I'm not even sure anymore it is better than 400 flat HP at this current implementation given the bit of testing I did...

Sat 13 Jul 2019 6:05 PM by Mavella

Ask how many rangers or hunters if they Don't take MoArcane. Again don't care if it just increases their self buffs. Getting the pots cranked up on top is just dumb.

I'm sure there are plenty of scouts that love having nerfed charged buffs and then we're left in the dust because they don't have access to any newly buffed self buffs or MoArcane.

Of course it's minimal if it's just increasing the pots itself but with the 20 point 20% investment you're getting +17 in 3 stats and 10 qui. This then allows you to still invest in the first 5 level a of any Aug stat you want where the stat per point spent ratio is the highest. Of course no class with access to MoArcane is really increasing JUST the pot values outside casters maybe?

Do a /u and take a guess which class is getting the most benefit from this shit. There's as many of them online as the other realms stealthers combined. I'll give a hint it starts with R and ends with Anger.

I also wouldn't even care if the devs in their infinite wisdom didn't decide to nerf charges while simultaneously buffing self buffs allowing one or two particular classes to retain pre charge nerf stats++ with relative ease. That's the problem.

Sat 13 Jul 2019 6:34 PM by Kemoauc

But you don't get 8 points to spend somewhere else

I think buffs always round down so you get the following for 20 pts

16 str
16 dex
16 con = approx 60 HP
10 qui
x AF

Now you can get the following for 20 pts and you're pretty much equal

17str - Aug str 4
75 HP - Tough 3
17 dex - Aug dex 4
2% Attackspeed - MoArms 2
0 AF but all of the above is better than from MoArcane

Are you really complaining that some selfbuff class gets some tiny amount of stats on top of the above because their own 1-3 buffs get better too? They actually spend points and others get the buffs for free from pots. Most of the advantage they buy with the skillpts is made useless by buffpot/charge already.

Point still stands that you get a lot of things you don't even want in this bundle. I can think of a lot of things for 20 pts that will net you more rps over the long run...

Sun 14 Jul 2019 1:04 AM by Mavella

I'm honestly sick of the argument that these self buff lines are somehow made obsolete because buff pots or charges are in the game. Every single line has other damaging and utility skills outside of the straight stat buffs. Speccing in those lines still provided value and when people were running 3-4 charges needing to pop one less allowed for more free time to pop damage add or heal charge usage. There were a few that knew and understood this fact most were too stupid to see it though.

Your points about the effectiveness of just boosting the potion vs spending 20 points is great but it's never just the potion being boosted so the value proposition is much greater depending on class. Rangers bring the obvious culprit getting a huge amount of benefit from MoArcane. It only became more amplified when theirs got boosted while everyone else got nerfed. They were already strong to begin with he free lunch stats on top of it are just totally unnecessary I'm sure there being 60 online this afternoon while there were 25NS on has nothing to do with this though.

Sun 14 Jul 2019 7:03 AM by Kemoauc

So now we're talking about Rangers being op or played a lot in general? Or that Scouts are comparably weak? Didn't you argue for MoArcane to be made available to everyone?

I don't think anyone decided to roll a Ranger instead of an NS because MoArcane exists. They get a few more points in dex, str and AF out of MoArcane in addition to what i listed above. I still think you overestimate the impact of stats and that this difference has almost no impact on anything - maybe like 2% more dmg overall. Any combination of Purge, IP and Toughness will result in a stronger Ranger in 1vs1 or small scale battles than MoArcane.

People play Rangers over NS because they have a ranged attack and are way less annoying and easier to play - switching weapons and poison management is not something everyone wants to deal with.

This is starting to go off topic and the archer balance in general is already discussed in other threads.

Sun 14 Jul 2019 3:40 PM by Mavella

I'm just calling out the class that arguably gets to abuse it the most. It's not different for hunters atm. Ask almost any high RR ranger or hunter and of course they will tell you they have MoArcane.

Your points about active RAs and what's better than passive stats really isn't doing anything for me. Of course every class is going to take their base of active RAs first until the gain per level increase is usually to costly. What that for Purge and IP? Level 3? Great 30 points down then you move into buying passives like every other class.

Again when you compare only 20 points spent sure stacking a bunch of low level Aug stats is definitely comparable. Most poeple end up up spending what 40+ points on passive as they RR up? You know passives that help you win fights without having to blow actives right?

As an SB I'd definitely take MoArcane 7 as a base. I can get 28str and 22 qui with Aug str/qui 3 which is 25 points of investment alone for 28 points. Yes I will take +32 extra stats and AF that you seem to unflinchingly want to minimize for 3 points.

So yeah, give the RA to everyone to get rid of the free stats on buff pots.

Sun 14 Jul 2019 4:05 PM by Loki

When they took away charges, the main argument was that self-buffing classes should have the upper hand when it comes to stats. What's the excuse now, that certain classes can get to be their own best buff bot ? No more outrage ? So I guess the argument of self buffing classes was just a reason to make people think "Yeah, I should be getting better stats than most ! I am worthy !" and argue among themselves and let the patch slide.

Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:06 AM by cere2

Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Jul 2019 3:40 PM
I'm just calling out the class that arguably gets to abuse it the most. It's not different for hunters atm. Ask almost any high RR ranger or hunter and of course they will tell you they have MoArcane.

Your points about active RAs and what's better than passive stats really isn't doing anything for me. Of course every class is going to take their base of active RAs first until the gain per level increase is usually to costly. What that for Purge and IP? Level 3? Great 30 points down then you move into buying passives like every other class.

Again when you compare only 20 points spent sure stacking a bunch of low level Aug stats is definitely comparable. Most poeple end up up spending what 40+ points on passive as they RR up? You know passives that help you win fights without having to blow actives right?

As an SB I'd definitely take MoArcane 7 as a base. I can get 28str and 22 qui with Aug str/qui 3 which is 25 points of investment alone for 28 points. Yes I will take +32 extra stats and AF that you seem to unflinchingly want to minimize for 3 points.

So yeah, give the RA to everyone to get rid of the free stats on buff pots.

So tired of hearing SB's complain about rangers in general. Do you realize how much HP an ranger loses with your ws/con debuff and then add to that the weapon con/str debuff that stacks. It's a fricking joke. And your on here whining about a ranger having slightly higher buffs. FFS once you use your posions they have much less than you by far. The QQ is beyond me.
If rangers could spec MOS9 then you might have a complaint. Beyond that it's almost funny.

Tue 16 Jul 2019 6:08 AM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:06 AM
So tired of hearing SB's complain about rangers in general. Do you realize how much HP an ranger loses with your ws/con debuff and then add to that the weapon con/str debuff that stacks. It's a fricking joke. And your on here whining about a ranger having slightly higher buffs. FFS once you use your posions they have much less than you by far. The QQ is beyond me.
If rangers could spec MOS9 then you might have a complaint. Beyond that it's almost funny.

That's a very unreasonable way to argue though imo...
That's like telling a caster who complains about too much HP on an enemy that he can just nuke twice and the HP will be gone...well no shit sherlock
and just FYI con debuffs proccing and stacking just eats the empty part of your healthbar

rangers are over the top currently, they get very good melee but still keep decent bowdmg, similar to hunters they need a melee reduction and a bow-buff.
There's a reason the stealthers in mid/hib are heavily flocking to the archerclasses and it's that you get to be a ranged-melee hybrid that performs well in all scenarios. Or are you trying to tell me that the least populated realm suddenly has the most in a stealthclass because they all suddenly wanted to have a bigger challenge

Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:35 AM by Estat

Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Jul 2019 3:40 PM
I'm just calling out the class that arguably gets to abuse it the most. It's not different for hunters atm. Ask almost any high RR ranger or hunter and of course they will tell you they have MoArcane.

Ask any high RR scout and of course they will tell you they have AugDex.

Having higher dex seems to be desirable for archer classes somehow. For rangers and hunters (and friars) the most efficient way to increase dexterity includes MoArcane. The added stats from the buff potion is just a nice bonus.

As an SB I'd definitely take MoArcane 7 as a base. I can get 28str and 22 qui with Aug str/qui 3 which is 25 points of investment alone for 28 points. Yes I will take +32 extra stats and AF that you seem to unflinchingly want to minimize for 3 points.

Getting high MoArcane would not be a very efficient way to spend RA points for a class without self buffs. You are probably better off by maximizing the most valuable stat (str for SB) and using MoArcane (if you could) only if points in AugStr get more expensive per point of str gained.

Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:40 AM by gotwqqd

Estat wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Jul 2019 7:35 AM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Jul 2019 3:40 PM
I'm just calling out the class that arguably gets to abuse it the most. It's not different for hunters atm. Ask almost any high RR ranger or hunter and of course they will tell you they have MoArcane.
Ask any high RR scout and of course they will tell you they have AugDex.

Having higher dex seems to be desirable for archer classes somehow. For rangers and hunters (and friars) the most efficient way to increase dexterity includes MoArcane. The added stats from the buff potion is just a nice bonus.

As an SB I'd definitely take MoArcane 7 as a base. I can get 28str and 22 qui with Aug str/qui 3 which is 25 points of investment alone for 28 points. Yes I will take +32 extra stats and AF that you seem to unflinchingly want to minimize for 3 points.
Getting high MoArcane would not be a very efficient way to spend RA points for a class without self buffs. You are probably better off by maximizing the most valuable stat (str for SB) and using MoArcane (if you could) only if points in AugStr get more expensive per point of str gained.

Isn’t every solo player a self buffing class with pots?

Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:08 AM by inoeth

Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Jul 2019 3:40 PM
I'm just calling out the class that arguably gets to abuse it the most. It's not different for hunters atm. Ask almost any high RR ranger or hunter and of course they will tell you they have MoArcane.

Your points about active RAs and what's better than passive stats really isn't doing anything for me. Of course every class is going to take their base of active RAs first until the gain per level increase is usually to costly. What that for Purge and IP? Level 3? Great 30 points down then you move into buying passives like every other class.

Again when you compare only 20 points spent sure stacking a bunch of low level Aug stats is definitely comparable. Most poeple end up up spending what 40+ points on passive as they RR up? You know passives that help you win fights without having to blow actives right?

As an SB I'd definitely take MoArcane 7 as a base. I can get 28str and 22 qui with Aug str/qui 3 which is 25 points of investment alone for 28 points. Yes I will take +32 extra stats and AF that you seem to unflinchingly want to minimize for 3 points.

So yeah, give the RA to everyone to get rid of the free stats on buff pots.

i consider my hunter to be at least higher rr with rr7 and i can tell you i would never! spec moarcana simply because its not worth it. i also play ranger from time to time and asked alot of others if they spec moarcana but nobody does.... personally i would not mind if it gets removed, but actually i dont see the need for it because nobody specs it. so the problem you refer to is simply not existent.
even if someone spends all the points for moarcana9, its not like they get OP because they dont have the points for other abilities like purge and ip which are far more worth the points.

Tue 16 Jul 2019 10:10 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Jul 2019 6:08 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Jul 2019 4:06 AM
So tired of hearing SB's complain about rangers in general. Do you realize how much HP an ranger loses with your ws/con debuff and then add to that the weapon con/str debuff that stacks. It's a fricking joke. And your on here whining about a ranger having slightly higher buffs. FFS once you use your posions they have much less than you by far. The QQ is beyond me.
If rangers could spec MOS9 then you might have a complaint. Beyond that it's almost funny.

That's a very unreasonable way to argue though imo...
That's like telling a caster who complains about too much HP on an enemy that he can just nuke twice and the HP will be gone...well no shit sherlock
and just FYI con debuffs proccing and stacking just eats the empty part of your healthbar

rangers are over the top currently, they get very good melee but still keep decent bowdmg, similar to hunters they need a melee reduction and a bow-buff.
There's a reason the stealthers in mid/hib are heavily flocking to the archerclasses and it's that you get to be a ranged-melee hybrid that performs well in all scenarios. Or are you trying to tell me that the least populated realm suddenly has the most in a stealthclass because they all suddenly wanted to have a bigger challenge

Figured you would chime in on this. Saying rangers are over the top is just a joke. Show me some evidence. Why is it you are not seeing Ranger vids annihilating assassin's? But I can watch at least 10 vids of assassin's destroying archers?
The reason people are playing archers is mainly due to stealth detection being changed so they don't have to eat a PA every encounter. Prior to that change archers were free rps, and even I got sick of that garbage and quit. I imagine many other's did the same.

"FYI con debuffs proccing and stacking just eats the empty part of your healthbar"
Actually con debuff drops your total hitpoints instantly...so.....

Oh and if you purge that con debuff, you don't get that missing health back either....test it out if you like...its essentially a free 400hp damage.

Wed 17 Jul 2019 6:23 AM by Sepplord

yeah all the rangers are playing now because they aren't free RPs anymore, but they still suck, the rangerflood are all players looking for a challenge (but not too big, that's why they didn't play before)

i also never said they are over the top in melee, i don't really know how you could misunderstand it as i literally spelled it out.

they get very good melee but still keep decent bowdmg

I don't know about vids, the people making vids are a very tiny fraction of players. There aren't many vids at all from this server, even less from the current patch. What would a video prove? Are you claiming that no ranger has beaten an assassin at all on phoenix? Because that's all that would be debunked by such a video.
If you truely believe rangers can't beat assassins at all, ever, ask nesretnik...he fucked up assassins regularly long before being passively buffed (when you gave up)

And regarding con-debuffs: when you are at 1500 of 1700 HP and get con debuffed for 200HP, then you are at 1500/1500 HP afterwards...no bonus damage in most situations. Proccs are applied AFTER the hit has happened, not before. Try again. Same with poisons.
It's why PA often seems to do very low dmg, because most of damages effect on the targets healthbar gets overwritten by the condebuff...the target is still at 90%+ HP although the damage is ofcourse still in effect

considering you expected me to chime in, i would have thought you have prepared better arguments

Wed 17 Jul 2019 11:53 AM by Estat

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Jul 2019 8:08 AM
i consider my hunter to be at least higher rr with rr7 and i can tell you i would never! spec moarcana simply because its not worth it.

Would you also tell us that you would never!!! spec AugDex because it's not worth it?

Because if you consider speccing AugDex you will find that points in MoArcane or a combination of both RAs can increase Dex more for the same amount of points spent.

Wed 17 Jul 2019 5:37 PM by Mavella

Let me learn you idiots something since these are difficult concepts. I'll link the thread with the testing where this info is from so it's been tested.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8680&start=10

42path with MoArcane 7 gives 20 str 21 dex 16 con 15 qui and 12 AF for a grand total of 20 points. This is a bargain and any sane Ranger would take this because you get 72 stats +12 AF for TWENTY points! Even MoArcane 5 for 10 points is worth it. If you're a ranger and not taking this ability if you have the points you're being wilfully ignorant.

And yes I understand it's ONLY a free 10str 6 dex and 16con. So instead of getting 40 stat and 12 AF for 20 points which is still a decent value and reasonable you get 72 stats and 12 AF which is absurdly good. No other class can get that return on 20 points. It's effectiveness is almost doubled from the free ride on the pot buffs.

If the devs want to continue to allow it then give EVERYONE the option to spec for it. I've already explained why it's still worth it even without self buffs when adding those first few levels of Aug stats on top at 3-4stat per point. To get those extra stats if you were to invest exclusively in that Aug stat line is substantially more. 34 str is 20 points alone and you can get 32 for 24 plus all the extras on top given the example above. This isn't rocket science.

AGAIN, this is for when you're beyond the point of speccing for IP2-3, purge3, and crit chance. I'm in no way advocating for giving up your core actives early for this. Stop making that idiotic argument. Please.

P.S. Please don't kill me with all this new found knowledge.

Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:51 AM by Estat

Mavella wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Jul 2019 5:37 PM
Let me learn you idiots something since these are difficult concepts.

Wer im Glashaus sitzt … (sorry for anyone who doesnt understand german)

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8680&start=10

42path with MoArcane 7 gives 20 str 21 dex 16 con 15 qui and 12 AF for a grand total of 20 points. This is a bargain and any sane Ranger would take this because you get 72 stats +12 AF for TWENTY points!

A smart ranger would compare gains for different RAs and notice that while MoA7 gives +21 dex, spending 20 RA points on MoA5 would give him 13 + 22 = 35 dex. He or she would then consider if 14 more dex is more beneficial to his build then 8 str, 7 con, 5 qui and 7 af. He or she would then consider dropping both MoA and AugDex to 3 (because the stat gain per RA spent is lower for rank 4 + 5) and spending 12 RA points on Mastery of Archery, Falcon Eye and Mastery of Pain (or even Mastery of Arms, Toughness or AugStr).

I am fairly certain the result of this is not that blowing all available points after getting the mandatory active RAs on MoArcane because bargain!!! is the best way to build a ranger.

Please also note that hunters benefit less from MoArcane than rangers because they dont get a base str buff like rangers do (also true for thanes and chimps).

Thu 18 Jul 2019 6:52 AM by inoeth

dudes watch your tounge!

the question is not does it improve stats? yes it does
the question is, do i want to spend all those points for stats i dont need? no i do not because you do not have the points for important stuff like active RAs and mopain

@estat: i spec aug dex 1-3 till respec to increase mopain...

so for your famous 20 points you get

16 str = 7 points aug str (17)
16 con -> 74 hp = 4 points in toughness
16 dex = 7 points aug dex (17)
10 quick = 4 points aug quick (12)
10 af -> not really worth

so for 22 points you get nearly the same amount of stats, even a bit more, while toughness is not really worth it and the 10 af dosnt win/lose fights too...

but i tell you this:
for an assassin it would be much more valueable to just spec mopain+augstr... so what do we get here for 20 points?

augstr5 = 22 str
mopain5 = 17% crit

imo thats far better

but yeah plz give all assassins moarcana so they gimp theirself pumping all their ra points into useless stats lol

Thu 18 Jul 2019 10:04 AM by Mavella

You guys are hyper focusing on "ONLY" 20 points to spend. I've already agreed that if you ONLY have 20 to spend getting a few levels Aug stats and maybe toughness is worth it and and compressible. Why is that? Because that's when you get the most benefit per point on every single RA. When you're beyond that the benefit you gain from MoArcane + the first few levels of Aug stats is too good with it buffing buff pots as well.

As for hunters they get 16 str 21 dex 16 con 15 qui 10-16AF with a similar BC spec. Just because they don't have a self base str doesn't mean they don't benefit almost as greatly. Their damage is also 50/50 on the spear so 18 damage stat for melee vs 20 damage stat on the blade ranger for melee. Are you really going to say "totally not worth it!" over 2 damage stat. Honestly?

Now if you're a hunter or ranger that sits in keeps spamming volley all day this whole scenario does not apply to you because you're filling a niche and your spear/swords is likely never come out anyway. I will agree who needs str or con then. Spec Aug dex and bow crit till your hearts content. When you do get caught in melee you're free rps anyway.

Again, as a sin I've got my purge and crit chance to where I like it. I've got 30 to spend I could pick up str7 qui5 for 25 and get MoArms3 tough 1. So 28 str 22 qui 3% haste 25 hp.

Or

I could get Arcane 7 str 3 qui 3 MoArms 2 giving me 28 str 22 qui 16con(64hp) 16dex(evade chance) 10 AF 2% haste.

I and any sane person should pick option 2 every. single. time. The stats only scale up harder when you've actually got self buffs to improve as I've demonstrated. I'm not saying give up crit chance or actives for this, I NEVER did.

Also please don't minimize 10 AF you get 12 bonus from RR5 with MP armor and it is noticeable compared to those that don't have it. Add the 10AF on top of that combined with all the other minor seemingly inconsequential gains and they add up to a fairly significantly stronger character overall.

I never really came in here to debate the best way to spend your points this issue is the pot buffs giving classes that can and do spec MoArcane free extra stats that they shouldn't. Smart folks spec for it because it's obviously very worth it WHEN they can afford it despite the laughable protest in this thread. The numerous examples don't lie.

Give everyone the CHOICE to spec it it or get rid of the free stats is and remains my entire point.