Scouts Are the Worst Bow Class

Started 22 Jun 2019
by Tndiesel
in Albion
When are Scouts gonna Get some Love?
Problem with Scout
No penetrating arrow if its in the game it does not Work.
No crit shot on Mezzed targets, or targets in combat. Why can i be PA'ed by 5 shadow blades but i cant return the favor?
Specing 50 bow is not a option because damage doesn't change enough.
Slam is worthless it is purged everytime when you have a 5 min purge timer.

Ways we can fix scout.
Change Scout damage table on bow where its worth specing 50 bow.
Drop a couple of the restrictions you put on archers. Penetrating arrow and Crit on targets in combat.
Change our melee Damage table so its not worthless.
More spec points.

In any other realm the archer can be a melee toon but not Alb Scout are reliant on 2 things Crazy bow damage and Slam, but here on Phoenix Bow damage Is crap and Slam gets purged 90% of the time so what have you left the scout.
Sat 22 Jun 2019 8:58 PM by Sindralor
Can I ask you what your RA's are and your spec ?
If you have trouble on your scout you should ask Skairipa for advice, prob the best scout I've seen ingame
Sat 22 Jun 2019 10:50 PM by Vkejai
I do agree with the melee dmg table, scouts are real poor in that regard.
Sat 22 Jun 2019 11:39 PM by Turano
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Jun 2019 10:50 PM
I do agree with the melee dmg table, scouts are real poor in that regard.
what are you talking about, scouts have the same damage table as any other stealther
Sat 22 Jun 2019 11:49 PM by Kwall0311
Blame the zerging. Can you imagine the power ... backed by an inf or minstrel if these changes you asked for happen? Ridiculous.

If anything, nerf scout bow range and the 5.5 speed. Ridiculous this post.
Sun 23 Jun 2019 1:32 AM by Tndiesel
I have soloed to 6l7 not really having a problem im just saying they have nerfed them to much. I have also played solo archers since 2003 . This version of the scout is the worst there has ever been. Im not asking for all of these things im just saying let the scout get back to what it is. and if your not willing to give back penetrating arrow and crit on people in combat give us some more spec points or somthing.
Sun 23 Jun 2019 4:23 AM by Cadebrennus
This dude made two identical threads. Just lock one and leave one open.
Sun 23 Jun 2019 8:36 PM by Hejjin
Tndiesel wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Jun 2019 6:10 PM
When are Scouts gonna Get some Love?
Problem with Scout
No penetrating arrow if its in the game it does not Work.
No crit shot on Mezzed targets, or targets in combat. Why can i be PA'ed by 5 shadow blades but i cant return the favor?
Specing 50 bow is not a option because damage doesn't change enough.
Slam is worthless it is purged everytime when you have a 5 min purge timer.

Ways we can fix scout.
Change Scout damage table on bow where its worth specing 50 bow.
Drop a couple of the restrictions you put on archers. Penetrating arrow and Crit on targets in combat.
Change our melee Damage table so its not worthless.
More spec points.

In any other realm the archer can be a melee toon but not Alb Scout are reliant on 2 things Crazy bow damage and Slam, but here on Phoenix Bow damage Is crap and Slam gets purged 90% of the time so what have you left the scout.
A few thoughts :

1. Scouts do not need more spec points, that would make them too strong and result in a large increase in Scout numbers.
2. I agree that something should be done to increase the motivation to spec up to 50 bow, but I do not believe it should be extra damage, instead I would prefer long shot 1 at lvl 40, long shot 2 at lvl 45, and volley at lvl 50, Longshot 1 and 2 each increase base range by 25%, so 45 bow would be the equivalent of the Longshot RA.
3. The critishot restrictions are strange, having shots convert from critshot to normal for no apparent reason is just bizarre. Afk people evading or passively blocking a critshot is also damn annoying.
Sun 23 Jun 2019 11:51 PM by Bumbles
An increase in spec points would be a waste because no Scout even speced 50 weapon is going to kill anything in melee. Issue is the inability to get through bubbles, evade and block rates on crit shot. I do laugh at the people who always make the same argument anytime Scouts are brought up saying some drivel about Minstrels. You realize that there is a huge population that doesn't group with minstrels and never has? But these are the people who never give a solo Scout any notice and will add mindlessly because they assume there MUST be more around him/her.

Long winded way of saying nothing will ever be done to Scouts in iteration of the game. Want to make Scouts more playable though? Give them back Truesight/lookout etc. Some way to open a fight vs a Sin other than numb/slam kite with disease get 2 shots off and be forced to try and live via IP.
Mon 24 Jun 2019 10:44 AM by Sepplord
more specpoints would be a waste? uhh....yeah i don't even know what to say to that...


and yes, groupability must be taken into consideration.
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument


That said: Scouts are the worst solo bow class
Mon 24 Jun 2019 11:31 AM by Hejjin
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 10:44 AM
more specpoints would be a waste? uhh....yeah i don't even know what to say to that...
Well given that speccing over comp 50 Bow produces very little in terms of damage increase, adding more spec points will just result in Scouts speccing more points into melee, and our melee is poor compared to either Hunters or Rangers that have spent similar amount of points to their melee skills.

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 10:44 AM
and yes, groupability must be taken into consideration.
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument
...and we are back to the alternative universe where Scouts are regularly requested to join groups in RvR...When Scouts do group, it is usually with other stealthers where the utility / strength provided by a shield spec is not required...

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 10:44 AM
That said: Scouts are the worst solo bow class
Finally something I can agree with you about ;-).
Mon 24 Jun 2019 12:36 PM by Sepplord
i never mentioned visible groups...quit trying to strawman into that argument (but if we had enough population for the low percetages to show, i am quite sure that you would see more scouts in groups than hunters/rangers...but all are pretty close to 0%.)

how is shield-utility in stealth VS stealth fights not useful? (yes you wrote required...nothing is "required" per se in this game, so ill substitute usefull, since that is what we are discussing)

Guard is usefull when groupmembers get attacked in melee or by archers. When you fight enemy stealthers every single attack made is a melee attack or a shot arrow. Guard helps a lot in those situations. Especially when you consider that DW-penetration of block is nerfed here.
Mon 24 Jun 2019 3:20 PM by Horus
I dunno, I don't see a scout being any worse than any other archer. Much higher survivability at the expense of some melee DPS. Seem like a fair trade off.

Same bow issues every other bow specced archer faces....

Scout = Shield (1 spec line)
Hunter = Pet (1 spec line)
Ranger = Self buffs/CD (2 spec lines)

Pots help close the self buff gap. There is nothing that can close the shield vs no shield gap. Sure Slam is purged on occasion but when it isn't it is almost an "I win". You also have engage which means scouts are impossible to kill by other archers at range. Not a bad place to be.
Mon 24 Jun 2019 4:02 PM by Anelyn77
I played Scout, mercfil and minstrel back on live. Both minstrel and inf are in a very good spot (to not say quite strong), Scout is fine but nothing amazing. Alb being only realm that can sport 3 different stealthers (one of them with amazing toolkit), if Scouts would get bumped upward in any shape form, it would create a large imbalance to the game.

Sure not everyone groups, but you can't ignore the impact on the group stealth if scouts would get buffed in any shape or form. So I believe this will be a status quo on phoenix, unless they adjust either minstrel or inf (which I doubt they will - just my opinion).

You can't make changes to a class in a vacuum, you need to examine all angles and all effects of said buffs / nerfs in all possible scenarios said class can take part to make sure nothing breaks going over the top or too much down under.

/Bnotashamed 4L7 pac healer + Aicha 5L5 mentalist
Mon 24 Jun 2019 5:09 PM by Hejjin
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 3:20 PM
I dunno, I don't see a scout being any worse than any other archer. Much higher survivability at the expense of some melee DPS. Seem like a fair trade off.

Same bow issues every other bow specced archer faces....

Scout = Shield (1 spec line)
Hunter = Pet (1 spec line)
Ranger = Self buffs/CD (2 spec lines)

Pots help close the self buff gap. There is nothing that can close the shield vs no shield gap. Sure Slam is purged on occasion but when it isn't it is almost an "I win". You also have engage which means scouts are impossible to kill by other archers at range. Not a bad place to be.
Have you actually played a scout on here, or are you merely theory-crafting? Personally I am confident it is the latter and not the former.
Mon 24 Jun 2019 9:04 PM by Bumbles
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 10:44 AM
more specpoints would be a waste? uhh....yeah i don't even know what to say to that...


and yes, groupability must be taken into consideration.
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument


That said: Scouts are the worst solo bow class

1: Do you play a Scout here? If so who?
2: Yes more spec points won't do much for a Scout on this server as the difference between 27-50 bow is maybe 20 damage and the difference between 21 thrust/slash and 50 thrust slash is maybe 50 damage. So other than going 50 stealth or 50 shield for that whopping extra second stun what are those points really going to do for a Scout here?
3: Was the ability to group taken into consideration for Assassins when they gave them WS debuff? Or buffed Hunters pet and gave it faster than sprint speed? Or the charge change which in turn caused an already decent gap between hunters/rangers and scouts to widen? Probably not, so why is it held as a standard to Scouts simply because they share a realm with Minstrels..?
4: Maybe it was meant for another poster but
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument
Which strength of a Scout are people not using?

Mind you these are in no means meant to be passive aggressive, just honestly curious as to your frame of mind.
Mon 24 Jun 2019 9:10 PM by Bumbles
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 4:02 PM
I played Scout, mercfil and minstrel back on live
.
apples and oranges.
Scout is fine but nothing amazing.
Find me one NS/Sb who is nervous when they find a Scout alone. Anyone who plays a assassin on Hib/Mid will say they are free RPs unless they are lying to you.

I have killed a few of the high well known assassins on this server solo BUT everything went as perfectly for me as they could and they did dumb things because they were fighting a Scout and didn't think it would matter. And all of those fights I had to get my Critshot off as an opener before they could PA/BS me.
Mon 24 Jun 2019 11:02 PM by Anelyn77
@Bumbles

You missed my point and took things out of context. They can't buff scouts because of infs + minstrels. If that gets past you, then sure, in a vacuum, scout needs some buffs.

My huntress is also free rps for any sin, as I play her as an archer not melee, and she hasn't seen any action in past week+, having more fun with my pac healer and mentalist.

/Bnotashamed + Aicha
Tue 25 Jun 2019 1:02 AM by Bumbles
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 11:02 PM
@Bumbles

You missed my point and took things out of context. They can't buff scouts because of infs + minstrels. If that gets past you, then sure, in a vacuum, scout needs some buffs.

My huntress is also free rps for any sin, as I play her as an archer not melee, and she hasn't seen any action in past week+, having more fun with my pac healer and mentalist.

/Bnotashamed + Aicha

No I get what you are saying, and I agree. But as someone who has played alb 95% straight since 2002 solo it always frustrated me that Scouts got the short end of the stick due to being on a shared realm with minstrels.

And about your Hunter all I can say is at least you have the option on that class to spec beastcraft and high spear to rip assassins. Scouts can't spec high weapon and do anywhere close to the damage a hunter does. And even when I speced 50 shield and MoB9 with DW I was blocking at a 30ish rate vs assassins with Scouts gimp WS. Watching that Hunter who streamed a bunch a few weeks ago made me cry seeing how well they did vs assassins in straight up melee.

That's all
Tue 25 Jun 2019 6:32 AM by Sepplord
Bumbles wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 9:04 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 10:44 AM
more specpoints would be a waste? uhh....yeah i don't even know what to say to that...


and yes, groupability must be taken into consideration.
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument


That said: Scouts are the worst solo bow class

1: Do you play a Scout here? If so who?
2: Yes more spec points won't do much for a Scout on this server as the difference between 27-50 bow is maybe 20 damage and the difference between 21 thrust/slash and 50 thrust slash is maybe 50 damage. So other than going 50 stealth or 50 shield for that whopping extra second stun what are those points really going to do for a Scout here?
3: Was the ability to group taken into consideration for Assassins when they gave them WS debuff? Or buffed Hunters pet and gave it faster than sprint speed? Or the charge change which in turn caused an already decent gap between hunters/rangers and scouts to widen? Probably not, so why is it held as a standard to Scouts simply because they share a realm with Minstrels..?
4: Maybe it was meant for another poster but
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument
Which strength of a Scout are people not using?

Mind you these are in no means meant to be passive aggressive, just honestly curious as to your frame of mind.

1. no

2. you have already adjusted your wording from "being a waste" to "would not do much", seems like you agree with me that it would not be a waste

3. none of your examples is something that has zero power solo, but full power grouped. Scouts guard is such an ability, if you have a group-only ability and are balanced in group, then you will be missing that power when solo. easy logic.
3.b. because in the end, this is a group game. scouts have groupoptions that hunters and rangers don't have. there's a reason the biggest stealthzergs are in albion, because their stealthers have abilities that appeal to grouping stealthers.

4. i thought that was quite obvious: guard is not being used by a scout that is solo
Tue 25 Jun 2019 7:27 AM by warblade
+1 for Scout changes
Tue 25 Jun 2019 9:01 AM by warblade
Have anyone tried 50 Slash - 42 shield ?
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:35 AM by Khogor
+2 for Scout changes

Escape Ability Like the 2 other archers have.
Mos RA ..venom immunity buff Like on live ....eg

I have to admit i kind of like not having to specc ober 35
Bow..more Points for the rest.

Scouts shield cant compete to Ranger DW ore even hunter pet which will outdam you with youre Baby dps
Tue 25 Jun 2019 11:32 AM by Snakejuice
NF Archer is the way too imo...
Tue 25 Jun 2019 12:51 PM by Hejjin
Khogor wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:35 AM
snip...
Scouts shield cant compete to Ranger DW ore even hunter pet which will outdam you with youre Baby dps
According to those that do not play Scouts it can and should be compared. Its theoretical utility is one of the reasons Scouts cannot be buffed.

When I see people make the statement that "Scouts are Fine" I am reminded of something I read during my WoW days over a decade ago that went something along the lines of : If my class can beat another class every time, then my class is fine, as is theirs, they just need to learn to play, but if another class can beat my class some of the time then they are overpowered and need to be nerfed.

From what I have seen, the only people saying Scouts are fine are people that do not actually play the class, they may qualify their statements by stating they played a Scout on live as if that matters...
Tue 25 Jun 2019 4:56 PM by Bumbles
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 6:32 AM
Bumbles wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 9:04 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Jun 2019 10:44 AM
more specpoints would be a waste? uhh....yeah i don't even know what to say to that...


and yes, groupability must be taken into consideration.
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument


That said: Scouts are the worst solo bow class

1: Do you play a Scout here? If so who?
2: Yes more spec points won't do much for a Scout on this server as the difference between 27-50 bow is maybe 20 damage and the difference between 21 thrust/slash and 50 thrust slash is maybe 50 damage. So other than going 50 stealth or 50 shield for that whopping extra second stun what are those points really going to do for a Scout here?
3: Was the ability to group taken into consideration for Assassins when they gave them WS debuff? Or buffed Hunters pet and gave it faster than sprint speed? Or the charge change which in turn caused an already decent gap between hunters/rangers and scouts to widen? Probably not, so why is it held as a standard to Scouts simply because they share a realm with Minstrels..?
4: Maybe it was meant for another poster but
"i choose not to use this part of my characters strengths therefor i want these parts i do use improved" imo, makes for a really bad argument
Which strength of a Scout are people not using?

Mind you these are in no means meant to be passive aggressive, just honestly curious as to your frame of mind.

1. no

2. you have already adjusted your wording from "being a waste" to "would not do much", seems like you agree with me that it would not be a waste

3. none of your examples is something that has zero power solo, but full power grouped. Scouts guard is such an ability, if you have a group-only ability and are balanced in group, then you will be missing that power when solo. easy logic.
3.b. because in the end, this is a group game. scouts have groupoptions that hunters and rangers don't have. there's a reason the biggest stealthzergs are in albion, because their stealthers have abilities that appeal to grouping stealthers.

4. i thought that was quite obvious: guard is not being used by a scout that is solo

1. You don't play a Scout so your input is lax. I assume you play a SB or a NS. The only input I can give about those classes on THIS server is that they easily kill my Scout as soon as I get close to them if they have purge up. Come to Alb make a Scout, I'll pay for your template myself and craft everything. Play it for a week and get into a lot of melee fights, then we can revisit this.
2. Nope still don't agree with you, sorry for my verbiage. Make it so a Scout can be 50bow/50stealth/50thrust/50slash/50shield and due to a low WS by default and add on assassins WS debuff they won't kill anything in pure melee, unlike what Ranges and Hunters CAN do.
3. I apologize as I never even though about "guard" as I have never used the ability a day in my 15+ years of playing this game in RvR as I do not group...I was not aware that guard was such a game breaking advantage. Lesson learned.
3b. Nope this is MMORPG which in ZERO way defines it as a game that you must group. This is obvious as even the Devs here have thrown a bone to the community that plays alone with the solo bounuses.
4. refer to 3.
Tue 25 Jun 2019 5:44 PM by Cadebrennus
warblade wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 9:01 AM
Have anyone tried 50 Slash - 42 shield ?

I'm thinking about it but I absolutely hate PvE and not too keen on the idea of leveling another class to 50
Tue 25 Jun 2019 5:45 PM by Cadebrennus
Khogor wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:35 AM
+2 for Scout changes

Escape Ability Like the 2 other archers have.
Mos RA ..venom immunity buff Like on live ....eg

I have to admit i kind of like not having to specc ober 35
Bow..more Points for the rest.

Scouts shield cant compete to Ranger DW ore even hunter pet which will outdam you with youre Baby dps

Scouts have the exact same MH damage as Hunters and Rangers. Most Scouts absolutely suck at melee because they don't put any points into melee.
Tue 25 Jun 2019 6:07 PM by Hejjin
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 5:45 PM
Khogor wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:35 AM
+2 for Scout changes

Escape Ability Like the 2 other archers have.
Mos RA ..venom immunity buff Like on live ....eg

I have to admit i kind of like not having to specc ober 35
Bow..more Points for the rest.

Scouts shield cant compete to Ranger DW ore even hunter pet which will outdam you with youre Baby dps

Scouts have the exact same MH damage as Hunters and Rangers. Most Scouts absolutely suck at melee because they don't put any points into melee.
Even when we do put points into melee, we still suck at it.
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:28 PM by Cadebrennus
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 6:07 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 5:45 PM
Khogor wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:35 AM
+2 for Scout changes

Escape Ability Like the 2 other archers have.
Mos RA ..venom immunity buff Like on live ....eg

I have to admit i kind of like not having to specc ober 35
Bow..more Points for the rest.

Scouts shield cant compete to Ranger DW ore even hunter pet which will outdam you with youre Baby dps

Scouts have the exact same MH damage as Hunters and Rangers. Most Scouts absolutely suck at melee because they don't put any points into melee.
Even when we do put points into melee, we still suck at it.

Depends on the line. Thrust styles suck in general. Slash is good but not great. The other issue is the armour table. If you choose slash you'll be great Vs Mid sneaks but suck Vs Hib sneaks, if you choose Thrust you'll be okay Vs all Hibs but suck Vs Mid sneaks. Basically choose your line based on what you think you will face more often.

Regarding damage (super rough numbers here), Rangers will get an unstyled damage boost of between 40-60 damage a percentage of the time dependent on CD, Hunters will have about the same boost due to 2h damage, but their damage will be styled, so they have an advantage there, CD will drop block rates somewhat (it was nerfed remember.)

If more people played Scouts like Hunters and Rangers then there wouldn't be as much of an issue. Sure Scouts don't have the same melee DPS as Hunters and Rangers, but they have far more defense and utility in a melee fight, and can completely negate another Archer's damage in a ranged fight. If a Scout specs purely in Archery/Shield/Stealth then yes, they will absolutely suck in melee. That's more of a personal choice.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:44 AM by Sepplord
Bumbles wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 4:56 PM
1. You don't play a Scout so your input is lax.
That's a logical fallacy.
Since you seem so eager that only scoutplayers can comment on scouts....have you played AGAINST scouts? On every toon btw. otherwise your expoerience is incomplete and "lax" (see how that argument works until noone is allowed to say anything anymore)



Bumbles wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 4:56 PM
2. Nope still don't agree with you, sorry for my verbiage. Make it so a Scout can be 50bow/50stealth/50thrust/50slash/50shield and due to a low WS by default and add on assassins WS debuff they won't kill anything in pure melee, unlike what Ranges and Hunters CAN do.
I never said more specpoints would solve all issues, i disagreed with that more speccpoints would not help at all. Wording is key, i advise you read more carefully and stick to the arguments, then the discussion can progress instead of going back and forth endlessly because i have to explain multiple times what i have already written. In the end this is a topic you want to further, right?

Bumbles wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 4:56 PM
3. I apologize as I never even though about "guard" as I have never used the ability a day in my 15+ years of playing this game in RvR as I do not group...I was not aware that guard was such a game breaking advantage. Lesson learned.
I sense a bit of irony,but if you are sincere: no need to apologize, good for improving your knowledge about a class you play for 15years

Bumbles wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 4:56 PM
3b. Nope this is MMORPG which in ZERO way defines it as a game that you must group. This is obvious as even the Devs here have thrown a bone to the community that plays alone with the solo bounuses.
4. refer to 3.

I never said that you must group, your time your choice of playstyle. But demanding that the game balance revolves around your choices is pretty pretentious.
Do battlebards need to be balanced for 1vs1 too? Healers, clerics, druids etc... everyone needs to be perfectly balanced for 1vs1 because there might be people choosing to solo on those chars?

I have already acknowledged multiple times that the solo-scout is the worst archer, so you can stop trying to convince me further. That isn't the point.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 7:54 AM by Hejjin
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:28 PM
Depends on the line. Thrust styles suck in general. Slash is good but not great. The other issue is the armour table. If you choose slash you'll be great Vs Mid sneaks but suck Vs Hib sneaks, if you choose Thrust you'll be okay Vs all Hibs but suck Vs Mid sneaks. Basically choose your line based on what you think you will face more often.
I will be polite and just say that I have tested both thrust and slash and had already taken your points into consideration. The damage is still poor, admittedly I have never specced my melee above 37 (+15), but I struggle to believe that going up to 39 or 44 will make a huge difference in melee damage.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:28 PM
snip...
if more people played Scouts like Hunters and Rangers then there wouldn't be as much of an issue.
There is an old saying : In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, in practise there is. Stop with the pure theory crafting, play a scout, and then report as to whether your point is correct. Plenty of scouts have tried what you and the other theorycrafters have stated and they still define Scouts as being the worst archer of the 3 realms.

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Jun 2019 10:28 PM
Sure Scouts don't have the same melee DPS as Hunters and Rangers, but they have far more defense and utility in a melee fight, and can completely negate another Archer's damage in a ranged fight. If a Scout specs purely in Archery/Shield/Stealth then yes, they will absolutely suck in melee. That's more of a personal choice.
I have had very few ranged battles with other archers, both Hunters and Rangers always close the distance to get into melee range when possible. Hunter's obviously send their pets on to us, ensuring that we struggle to snipe them while they close the gap, and then we have the joy of their pets hitting us for similar numbers to what we hit the Hunters...I believe most Scouts stick with high Bow, Shield, Stealth and play as a pure sniper as it is the least poor of the options available to us. I have tested other higher melee specs and reverted back to my sniper build for that very reason.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:30 AM by Sepplord
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 7:54 AM
I will be polite and just say that I have tested both thrust and slash and had already taken your points into consideration. The damage is still poor, admittedly I have never specced my melee above 37 (+15), but I struggle to believe that going up to 39 or 44 will make a huge difference in melee damage.

Not disputing your whole post, this point here just made me wonder. Why 37+15? There is no style at 37 and the 52 composite weaponspec is only relevant if you use melee-styles from a different specline (aka DW,CD,LA,CS,LW,PA ... i think that's all). When you use weaponstyle from the damagetype specline then there is no (soft)-cap at 52composite skill
Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:43 AM by Hejjin
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:30 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 7:54 AM
I will be polite and just say that I have tested both thrust and slash and had already taken your points into consideration. The damage is still poor, admittedly I have never specced my melee above 37 (+15), but I struggle to believe that going up to 39 or 44 will make a huge difference in melee damage.

Not disputing your whole post, this point here just made me wonder. Why 37+15? There is no style at 37 and the 52 composite weaponspec is only relevant if you use melee-styles from a different specline (aka DW,CD,LA,CS,LW,PA ... i think that's all). When you use weaponstyle from the damagetype specline then there is no (soft)-cap at 52composite skill
That was the highest possible without sacrificing too much Bow. The build I tried was 35 stealth, 42 shield, 37 thrust and 40 Bow. At 40 bow the max crit shot is 765, at 45 it is 1045, at 50 it is 1057 (All tested at RR5 both with and without combined forces pots). From previous testing I was not prepared to drop below 40 Bow, as I would be trading off potentially larger initial damage for a relatively minor melee increase.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 9:44 AM by Sepplord
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:43 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:30 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 7:54 AM
I will be polite and just say that I have tested both thrust and slash and had already taken your points into consideration. The damage is still poor, admittedly I have never specced my melee above 37 (+15), but I struggle to believe that going up to 39 or 44 will make a huge difference in melee damage.

Not disputing your whole post, this point here just made me wonder. Why 37+15? There is no style at 37 and the 52 composite weaponspec is only relevant if you use melee-styles from a different specline (aka DW,CD,LA,CS,LW,PA ... i think that's all). When you use weaponstyle from the damagetype specline then there is no (soft)-cap at 52composite skill
That was the highest possible without sacrificing too much Bow. The build I tried was 35 stealth, 42 shield, 37 thrust and 40 Bow. At 40 bow the max crit shot is 765, at 45 it is 1045, at 50 it is 1057 (All tested at RR5 both with and without combined forces pots). From previous testing I was not prepared to drop below 40 Bow, as I would be trading off potentially larger initial damage for a relatively minor melee increase.

ah okay, then it was just coincidential you landed on the 52 comp specc ^^

Also: is there a typo in the bow damages? Going from 40bow to 45bow increasing the dmg cap from 765 to 1045 sounds huge (36,6% dmg increase)...i was under the impression the gains would be much smaller...more along the ines what you post to get from 45to50
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:04 AM by Hejjin
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 9:44 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:43 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:30 AM
Not disputing your whole post, this point here just made me wonder. Why 37+15? There is no style at 37 and the 52 composite weaponspec is only relevant if you use melee-styles from a different specline (aka DW,CD,LA,CS,LW,PA ... i think that's all). When you use weaponstyle from the damagetype specline then there is no (soft)-cap at 52composite skill
That was the highest possible without sacrificing too much Bow. The build I tried was 35 stealth, 42 shield, 37 thrust and 40 Bow. At 40 bow the max crit shot is 765, at 45 it is 1045, at 50 it is 1057 (All tested at RR5 both with and without combined forces pots). From previous testing I was not prepared to drop below 40 Bow, as I would be trading off potentially larger initial damage for a relatively minor melee increase.

ah okay, then it was just coincidential you landed on the 52 comp specc ^^

Also: is there a typo in the bow damages? Going from 40bow to 45bow increasing the dmg cap from 765 to 1045 sounds huge (36,6% dmg increase)...i was under the impression the gains would be much smaller...more along the ines what you post to get from 45to50
It was not really coincidence, it was aimed at comp 52 as people state that is the threshold to reach AND it resulted in fewer left over points, well except for a build with 36 thrust and 41 archery, but I wanted to try out a slightly higher melee build.

No, there is no typo, the max possible critshot at 45 bow is 1045 at RR5, at RR4 it was 1022 (16.2 DPS clamped for the latter, 16.5 for the former). The max at 40 bow was 765. All of these had the damage modifier of 3000, so yes there is a significant increase in max critshot damage between 40 and 45 bow, one reason I am reluctant to spec higher melee. All of these tests were performed with a 100% quality 16.5 DPS 5.5 speed crafted bow, the values were consistent regardless of class / armour strengths / weakness / combined forces potions / changes to augmented dex. The highest value seen was 1045 with -611 against a seated level 48 ranger. Note that this is the maximum possible, it is not even close to occurring every time, so if a Scout is going for a pure sniper build, stop at a maximum of 45 bow.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:09 AM by jelzinga_EU
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:04 AM
No, there is no typo, the max possible critshot at 45 bow is 1045 at RR5, at RR4 it was 1022 (16.2 DPS clamped for the latter, 16.5 for the former). The max at 40 bow was 765. All of these had the damage modifier of 3000, so yes there is a significant increase in max critshot damage between 40 and 45 bow, one reason I am reluctant to spec higher melee. All of these tests were performed with a 100% quality 16.5 DPS 5.5 speed crafted bow, the values were consistent regardless of class / armour strengths / weakness / combined forces potions / changes to augmented dex. The highest value seen was 1045 with -611 against a seated level 48 ranger. Note that this is the maximum possible, it is not even close to occurring every time, so if a Scout is going for a pure sniper build, stop at a maximum of 45 bow.

I'm almost 100% sure there is something wrong with your numbers. There is no way you go from 765 --> 1045 with 5 Bow spec-difference.

The number of 765 does not add up at all with my practical experience, most likely you did the test (by accident) with a much faster bow @ 40 spec. The 765 on 40 Bow-spec is something I expect with bow-speeds of roughly 5.0~ speed.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:16 AM by chois
He just capped his shoot on a target no level 50 and sit. With 27 bow my ca is 985 on a grey that what he wants to say if i think
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:18 AM by Hejjin
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:09 AM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:04 AM
No, there is no typo, the max possible critshot at 45 bow is 1045 at RR5, at RR4 it was 1022 (16.2 DPS clamped for the latter, 16.5 for the former). The max at 40 bow was 765. All of these had the damage modifier of 3000, so yes there is a significant increase in max critshot damage between 40 and 45 bow, one reason I am reluctant to spec higher melee. All of these tests were performed with a 100% quality 16.5 DPS 5.5 speed crafted bow, the values were consistent regardless of class / armour strengths / weakness / combined forces potions / changes to augmented dex. The highest value seen was 1045 with -611 against a seated level 48 ranger. Note that this is the maximum possible, it is not even close to occurring every time, so if a Scout is going for a pure sniper build, stop at a maximum of 45 bow.

I'm almost 100% sure there is something wrong with your numbers. There is no way you go from 765 --> 1045 with 5 Bow spec-difference.

The number of 765 does not add up at all with my practical experience, most likely you did the test (by accident) with a much faster bow @ 40 spec. The 765 on 40 Bow-spec is something I expect with bow-speeds of roughly 5.0~ speed.
No, I used the same bow every time, admittedly I did not test as extensively at 40 as I did at 45 bow, but given that a damage modifier of 3000 is the most that you can achieve, I am not sure how more extensive testing would have helped. I saw that max value of 765 multiple times during my testing, I was rather surprised how low it was compared to 45 bow, just as I was surprised at how little difference 50 bow made over 45 Bow.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:19 AM by Hejjin
chois wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:16 AM
He just capped his shoot on a target no level 50 and sit. With 27 bow my ca is 985 on a grey that what he wants to say if i think
No, none of those numbers were against greys, most were against level 50's.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 11:58 AM by Milksteak
RR7 scout here first time playing the class here never played it on live tho.
The problem is going 50 melee as a scout won't let you beat any assassin or Hunter/ranger in melee. Especially against assassins my slam or numb has a 35-40% evade chance and the 10% miss base leaves about a 50% chance to not land shield style. This is huge if I start the fight and get 2-3 evades/miss then I already lost the fight. Scout is worst stealth 1v1 class here imo, but it's still doable to certain extend, sometimes I can out melee some stealthers 1v1 but it requires them to be a couple ranks below me and I have to IP/ legion/pot heal. Kiting works sometimes but I feel it's kinda rng. Getting that slow style off is harder than it looks.

Like someone said Skairpa is an amazing solo scout prolly best on server getting advice from him/her would be a good idea. I'm not pretending to be an amazing scout I know I can play better 1v1 and working on a better template atm.
One thing I noticed is if run with my inf friend my scout becomes Amazingly good maybe the best stealther class duo. We rarely ever lose a 2v2. That shield slam value is huge in a duo and it seems to stop ppl from using purge and they almost give up. I remember reading a post saying a Scout's best defense is an inf, and that is so true here.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 1:06 PM by Sepplord
Milksteak wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 11:58 AM
One thing I noticed is if run with my inf friend my scout becomes Amazingly good maybe the best stealther class duo. We rarely ever lose a 2v2. That shield slam value is huge in a duo and it seems to stop ppl from using purge and they almost give up. I remember reading a post saying a Scout's best defense is an inf, and that is so true here.

That's the thing, and the biggest problem of solo-scouts
Wed 26 Jun 2019 4:10 PM by jelzinga_EU
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:18 AM
No, I used the same bow every time, admittedly I did not test as extensively at 40 as I did at 45 bow, but given that a damage modifier of 3000 is the most that you can achieve, I am not sure how more extensive testing would have helped. I saw that max value of 765 multiple times during my testing, I was rather surprised how low it was compared to 45 bow, just as I was surprised at how little difference 50 bow made over 45 Bow.

It is wrong, and I can prove it. My hunter, with a faster speed bow (5.0 speed, 99% qua, sub RR5) with 35+13 Archery has a cap of 875 damage.

So your numbers are wrong, since with a faster bow and a lower bow spec I should have lower cap than your 40 bow-spec, but it is higher than your claimed number, so your number must be wrong.

(screenshot at https://imgur.com/a/KnovvQz )
Wed 26 Jun 2019 4:35 PM by Hejjin
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 4:10 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 10:18 AM
No, I used the same bow every time, admittedly I did not test as extensively at 40 as I did at 45 bow, but given that a damage modifier of 3000 is the most that you can achieve, I am not sure how more extensive testing would have helped. I saw that max value of 765 multiple times during my testing, I was rather surprised how low it was compared to 45 bow, just as I was surprised at how little difference 50 bow made over 45 Bow.

It is wrong, and I can prove it. My hunter, with a faster speed bow (5.0 speed, 99% qua, sub RR5) with 35+13 Archery has a cap of 875 damage.

So your numbers are wrong, since with a faster bow and a lower bow spec I should have lower cap than your 40 bow-spec, but it is higher than your claimed number, so your number must be wrong.

(screenshot at https://imgur.com/a/KnovvQz )
Interesting, as I stated earlier none of my testing was against greys or low level training dummies. All of my targets were conning at least yellow to me, with the vast majority of them being level 50. I will try to find some low level dummies to practice on, though the only ones I have seen recently were all level 50.

Can you please test your critshot against level 50 target dummies to determine what the maximum is for that.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 5:37 PM by jelzinga_EU
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 4:35 PM
Interesting, as I stated earlier none of my testing was against greys or low level training dummies. All of my targets were conning at least yellow to me, with the vast majority of them being level 50. I will try to find some low level dummies to practice on, though the only ones I have seen recently were all level 50.

Can you please test your critshot against level 50 target dummies to determine what the maximum is for that.

I'm sorry but that would be absolutely pointless. Once you no longer cap, it will be impossible to compare anything as it complicates the calculations: Your enemies AF, Absorb, (possible) debuffs, level difference, my own DEX, etc etc. My critshot on a fully templated lvl 50 RR5 paladin with spec-AF chant running could be as low as 300 while a yellow con caster without his shields up would be hit for 875

There is no point in comparing damage between different targets to find out damage between different specs. Hit the same dummy with your different specs, keeping all other things equal and you will see the difference.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:05 PM by Hejjin
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 5:37 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 4:35 PM
Interesting, as I stated earlier none of my testing was against greys or low level training dummies. All of my targets were conning at least yellow to me, with the vast majority of them being level 50. I will try to find some low level dummies to practice on, though the only ones I have seen recently were all level 50.

Can you please test your critshot against level 50 target dummies to determine what the maximum is for that.

I'm sorry but that would be absolutely pointless. Once you no longer cap, it will be impossible to compare anything as it complicates the calculations: Your enemies AF, Absorb, (possible) debuffs, level difference, my own DEX, etc etc. My critshot on a fully templated lvl 50 RR5 paladin with spec-AF chant running could be as low as 300 while a yellow con caster without his shields up would be hit for 875

There is no point in comparing damage between different targets to find out damage between different specs. Hit the same dummy with your different specs, keeping all other things equal and you will see the difference.
Well my numbers that I originally posted were against players...not dummies. The modifier of 3000 occurred regardless of class or armour. The value listed was the absolute maximum numbers I was getting at RR4 (1022) and RR5(1045). I am just in the middle of testing against dummies, I wanted you to try against level 50 dummies just to see what the maximum you can record against them is as I have not found it possible to have a 3000 modifier on level 50 target dummies.

Results from logs of testing :

35 Bow : Dummies level 5-30
[18:08:36] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[18:08:39] You will now automatically release your shot.
[18:08:41] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 1002 (-30) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

35 Bow : Level 50 Dummy
[18:10:09] You examine Training Dummy Level 50. He is neutral towards you.
[18:10:10] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[18:10:13] You will now automatically release your shot.
[18:10:15] You shoot Training Dummy Level 50 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 425 (-149) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1278)

40 Bow : Dummies level 5-30
[18:17:57] You examine Training Dummy Level 5. He is neutral towards you.
[18:17:59] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[18:18:02] You will now automatically release your shot.
[18:18:04] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 1020 (-31) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

40 Bow : Dummy level 50
[18:20:21] You target [Training Dummy Level 50].
[18:20:21] You examine Training Dummy Level 50. He is neutral towards you.
[18:20:21] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[18:20:26] You will now automatically release your shot.
[18:20:27] You shoot Training Dummy Level 50 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 440 (-154) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1295)

45 Bow : Dummies level 5-30
[18:36:50] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[18:36:55] You are ready to fire!
[18:36:58] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 1040 (-32) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

45 Bow : Dummy level 50
[18:38:17] You target [Training Dummy Level 50].
[18:38:17] You examine Training Dummy Level 50. He is neutral towards you.
[18:38:17] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[18:38:20] You will now automatically release your shot.
[18:38:23] You shoot Training Dummy Level 50 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 447 (-157) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1295)

50 Bow : Dummies level 5-30
[17:49:46] You target [Training Dummy Level 5].
[17:49:46] You examine Training Dummy Level 5. He is neutral towards you.
[17:49:47] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[17:49:50] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:49:52] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 1057 (-32) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

50 Bow : Dummy level 50
[17:55:26] You examine Training Dummy Level 50. He is neutral towards you.
[17:55:27] You prepare your critical shot (5.1s to fire , target is in range)
[17:55:30] You will now automatically release your shot.
[17:55:35] You shoot Training Dummy Level 50 with your shimmering duskwood heavy long bow and hit for 455 (-159) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1295)

Now I am puzzled as to why a 3000 modifier with 40 bow does 1020 damage against level 5 dummies, when I was seeing a max of 765 against players, something strange there, so I need to repeat that series of tests against players.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 5:37 PM
Once you no longer cap, it will be impossible to compare anything as it complicates the calculations: Your enemies AF, Absorb, (possible) debuffs, level difference, my own DEX, etc etc
Absolutely none of those changed the maximum numbers seen with a damage modifier of 3000. I was hunting in Breifine all of last week, with and without combined forces pots, and the maximum damage seen only increased when I went from RR4 to RR5. I have just retested against dummies when using combined forces pots and it made zero change to max damage against the low level dummies, but had an effect on dummies level 35 and above. The level 35 dummy damage modifier then became 3000 rather than 2935 and 1544 modifier against the level 50 dummy (45 Bow) and increased its damage to 535.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:22 PM by jelzinga_EU
as said, it barely means anything as it depends on a lot more, but here you go:

[20:19:38] You target [Training Dummy Level 5].
[20:19:38] You examine Training Dummy Level 5. He is neutral towards you.
[20:19:39] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:19:42] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:19:43] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-27) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:19:44] You target [Training Dummy Level 10].
[20:19:44] You examine Training Dummy Level 10. He is friendly towards you.
[20:19:45] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:19:49] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:19:49] You shoot Training Dummy Level 10 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-55) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:19:50] You target [Training Dummy Level 15].
[20:19:50] You examine Training Dummy Level 15. He is neutral towards you.
[20:19:52] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:19:55] You are ready to fire!
[20:19:56] You shoot Training Dummy Level 15 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-76) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:19:56] You target [Training Dummy Level 20].
[20:19:56] You examine Training Dummy Level 20. He is neutral towards you.
[20:19:58] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:01] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:02] You shoot Training Dummy Level 20 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-108) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:02] You target [Training Dummy Level 25].
[20:20:02] You examine Training Dummy Level 25. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:04] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:07] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:20:08] You shoot Training Dummy Level 25 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-130) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:12] You target [Training Dummy Level 30].
[20:20:12] You examine Training Dummy Level 30. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:13] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:16] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:20:17] You shoot Training Dummy Level 30 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-166) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:18] You target [Training Dummy Level 35].
[20:20:18] You examine Training Dummy Level 35. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:21] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:24] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:25] You shoot Training Dummy Level 35 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-192) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:31] You target [Training Dummy Level 40].
[20:20:31] You examine Training Dummy Level 40. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:32] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:36] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:36] You shoot Training Dummy Level 40 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 762 (-202) damage! (Damage Modifier: 2616)

[20:20:38] You target [Training Dummy Level 45].
[20:20:38] You examine Training Dummy Level 45. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:40] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:44] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:45] You shoot Training Dummy Level 45 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 587 (-175) damage! (Damage Modifier: 2013)

[20:20:47] You target [Training Dummy Level 50].
[20:20:47] You examine Training Dummy Level 50. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:49] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:53] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:53] You shoot Training Dummy Level 50 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 432 (-151) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1487)
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:25 PM by Hejjin
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:22 PM
as said, it barely means anything as it depends on a lot more, but here you go:

[20:19:38] You target [Training Dummy Level 5].
[20:19:38] You examine Training Dummy Level 5. He is neutral towards you.
[20:19:39] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:19:42] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:19:43] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-27) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:19:44] You target [Training Dummy Level 10].
[20:19:44] You examine Training Dummy Level 10. He is friendly towards you.
[20:19:45] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:19:49] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:19:49] You shoot Training Dummy Level 10 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-55) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:19:50] You target [Training Dummy Level 15].
[20:19:50] You examine Training Dummy Level 15. He is neutral towards you.
[20:19:52] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:19:55] You are ready to fire!
[20:19:56] You shoot Training Dummy Level 15 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-76) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:19:56] You target [Training Dummy Level 20].
[20:19:56] You examine Training Dummy Level 20. He is neutral towards you.
[20:19:58] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:01] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:02] You shoot Training Dummy Level 20 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-108) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:02] You target [Training Dummy Level 25].
[20:20:02] You examine Training Dummy Level 25. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:04] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:07] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:20:08] You shoot Training Dummy Level 25 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-130) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:12] You target [Training Dummy Level 30].
[20:20:12] You examine Training Dummy Level 30. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:13] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:16] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:20:17] You shoot Training Dummy Level 30 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-166) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:18] You target [Training Dummy Level 35].
[20:20:18] You examine Training Dummy Level 35. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:21] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:24] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:25] You shoot Training Dummy Level 35 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-192) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[20:20:31] You target [Training Dummy Level 40].
[20:20:31] You examine Training Dummy Level 40. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:32] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:36] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:36] You shoot Training Dummy Level 40 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 762 (-202) damage! (Damage Modifier: 2616)

[20:20:38] You target [Training Dummy Level 45].
[20:20:38] You examine Training Dummy Level 45. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:40] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:44] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:45] You shoot Training Dummy Level 45 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 587 (-175) damage! (Damage Modifier: 2013)

[20:20:47] You target [Training Dummy Level 50].
[20:20:47] You examine Training Dummy Level 50. He is neutral towards you.
[20:20:49] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:20:53] You are ready to fire!
[20:20:53] You shoot Training Dummy Level 50 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 432 (-151) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1487)
What RR is your hunter?
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:39 PM by jelzinga_EU
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:25 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 6:22 PM
as said, it barely means anything as it depends on a lot more, but here you go:

[20:19:38] You target [Training Dummy Level 5].
[20:19:38] You examine Training Dummy Level 5. He is neutral towards you.
[20:19:39] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[20:19:42] You will now automatically release your shot.
[20:19:43] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 875 (-27) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)
<snip>

What RR is your hunter?

RR3, 40+13 Archery, 315 DEX, 5.0 speed bow, 99% qua.
Wed 26 Jun 2019 9:58 PM by Galandor
The problem with scouts is the fact that solo they are by far the worst stealther in the game.

Reasons

1) They lack the buff lines of either Hunter or Ranger which prevents them from having higher dex/qui, and also another escape tool in the speed burst.
2) They're shield is effectively useless against every single stealther. Their block rate is cut in half by every single stealther, hunters have a pet, rangers have dual wield, SB/NS have dual wield. A 5 minute timer on purge makes slam effectively useless as a tool as well unless you start baiting out purges with numb.
3) Bow damage is effectively capped at 35 bow with little incentive to raise this damage. Where Rangers have the ability to just go full melee, and hunters have that broken ass pet to make up for it, scouts are left with a shield that as stated earlier, is useless.

This all changes obviously if you're grouping with an inf/mins, scouts at that point become a much better threat given their weaknesses are made up for by the other player, but any scout playing past RR5 knows that the class is an absolute disaster if you have any intention of solo'ing effectively.
Thu 27 Jun 2019 2:18 PM by inoeth
Galandor wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 9:58 PM
The problem with scouts is the fact that solo they are by far the worst stealther in the game.

Reasons

1) They lack the buff lines of either Hunter or Ranger which prevents them from having higher dex/qui, and also another escape tool in the speed burst.
2) They're shield is effectively useless against every single stealther. Their block rate is cut in half by every single stealther, hunters have a pet, rangers have dual wield, SB/NS have dual wield. A 5 minute timer on purge makes slam effectively useless as a tool as well unless you start baiting out purges with numb.
3) Bow damage is effectively capped at 35 bow with little incentive to raise this damage. Where Rangers have the ability to just go full melee, and hunters have that broken ass pet to make up for it, scouts are left with a shield that as stated earlier, is useless.

This all changes obviously if you're grouping with an inf/mins, scouts at that point become a much better threat given their weaknesses are made up for by the other player, but any scout playing past RR5 knows that the class is an absolute disaster if you have any intention of solo'ing effectively.

dude know your facts!
their block is not halved! its 2/3 ... so a scout (10 start dex) with buffpots and 293 dex and 45 shield skill and rr5 has base chance of 46% block... cut those 2/3 you end up with 30%
now add some moblock and you can easily reach more than 50% block.. and you also have 15% evade...
yeah scouts have slightly less effective buffs but saracene has more base dex... my rr7 hunter with dex1 only has 300 dex, but scouts have slower bows so their dmg is much higher!

stop acting like scouts are shit, they are not! its the players that refuse to give their toon a proper spec!
Thu 27 Jun 2019 2:29 PM by inoeth
btw rr7 hunter 27+17 bow 300 dex 5.0 99q 99condi bow

[16:25:21] You target [Training Dummy Level 5].
[16:25:21] You examine Training Dummy Level 5. He is neutral towards you.
[16:25:22] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:25:23] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:25:26] You shoot Training Dummy Level 5 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 872 (-26) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[16:25:27] You target [Training Dummy Level 10].
[16:25:27] You examine Training Dummy Level 10. He is friendly towards you.
[16:25:29] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:25:29] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:25:33] You shoot Training Dummy Level 10 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 872 (-55) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[16:25:33] You target [Training Dummy Level 15].
[16:25:33] You examine Training Dummy Level 15. He is neutral towards you.
[16:25:34] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:25:35] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:25:38] You shoot Training Dummy Level 15 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 872 (-75) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[16:25:39] You target [Training Dummy Level 20].
[16:25:39] You examine Training Dummy Level 20. He is neutral towards you.
[16:25:40] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:25:42] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:25:44] You shoot Training Dummy Level 20 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 872 (-107) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[16:25:44] You target [Training Dummy Level 25].
[16:25:44] You examine Training Dummy Level 25. He is neutral towards you.
[16:25:45] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:25:46] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:25:49] You shoot Training Dummy Level 25 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 872 (-130) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[16:25:49] You target [Training Dummy Level 30].
[16:25:49] You examine Training Dummy Level 30. He is neutral towards you.
[16:25:50] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:25:51] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:25:54] You shoot Training Dummy Level 30 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 872 (-166) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[16:25:55] You target [Training Dummy Level 35].
[16:25:55] You examine Training Dummy Level 35. He is neutral towards you.
[16:25:56] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:25:57] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:26:00] You shoot Training Dummy Level 35 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 872 (-191) damage! (Damage Modifier: 3000)

[16:26:00] You target [Training Dummy Level 40].
[16:26:00] You examine Training Dummy Level 40. He is neutral towards you.
[16:26:01] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:26:02] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:26:05] You shoot Training Dummy Level 40 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 740 (-196) damage! (Damage Modifier: 2545)

[16:26:06] You target [Training Dummy Level 45].
[16:26:06] You examine Training Dummy Level 45. He is neutral towards you.
[16:26:07] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:26:07] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:26:11] You shoot Training Dummy Level 45 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 557 (-166) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1915)

[16:26:11] You target [Training Dummy Level 50].
[16:26:11] You examine Training Dummy Level 50. He is neutral towards you.
[16:26:19] You prepare your critical shot (3.6s to fire , target is in range)
[16:26:20] You will now automatically release your shot.
[16:26:23] You shoot Training Dummy Level 50 with your shimmering duskwood heavy composite bow and hit for 410 (-144) damage! (Damage Modifier: 1407)
Thu 27 Jun 2019 2:47 PM by Horus
Galandor wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 9:58 PM
The problem with scouts is the fact that solo they are by far the worst stealther in the game.

Reasons

1) They lack the buff lines of either Hunter or Ranger which prevents them from having higher dex/qui, and also another escape tool in the speed burst.
2) They're shield is effectively useless against every single stealther. Their block rate is cut in half by every single stealther, hunters have a pet, rangers have dual wield, SB/NS have dual wield. A 5 minute timer on purge makes slam effectively useless as a tool as well unless you start baiting out purges with numb.
3) Bow damage is effectively capped at 35 bow with little incentive to raise this damage. Where Rangers have the ability to just go full melee, and hunters have that broken ass pet to make up for it, scouts are left with a shield that as stated earlier, is useless.

This all changes obviously if you're grouping with an inf/mins, scouts at that point become a much better threat given their weaknesses are made up for by the other player, but any scout playing past RR5 knows that the class is an absolute disaster if you have any intention of solo'ing effectively.

Well yea, scout buffs are worse because they never have had a buff line to spec in. Are you saying they should get one? The classes were designed that way for a reason. That being said, you do have easy access to effective buff potions. Do hunters or rangers have effective "shield spec" buff potions? No. You can at least access at partial benefit of a entire other class's spec line for a few gold. Hunters and Rangers don't have that option.

2. If shield is so worthless, why does every scout spec it? Not everyone is running around with 5 min purge. Purge hurts a lot of classes, scout included. I personally only have purge 1. If a scout finds me it is lights out. Slam, crit shot, reg shot, melee, dead. And if I find a scout not much I can do. Crit shot, then they hit shield engage and I can't do anymore dmg..Dead. Sorry you can't beat every target every occasion. All archer classes are situational. You have to play to the strengths and accept the weaknesses. I can't beat any other class in melee either because I specced bow. You want to be melee competitive? Do what other archers are forced to do. Pick a high str/con race and forget about bow. Put all your points in slash and shield. Load up on melee RAs and buff potions. See how that works out. As far as bow spec, there we agree. But that affects all archer classes equally.
Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:59 PM by inoeth
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Jun 2019 2:47 PM
Galandor wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 9:58 PM
The problem with scouts is the fact that solo they are by far the worst stealther in the game.

Reasons

1) They lack the buff lines of either Hunter or Ranger which prevents them from having higher dex/qui, and also another escape tool in the speed burst.
2) They're shield is effectively useless against every single stealther. Their block rate is cut in half by every single stealther, hunters have a pet, rangers have dual wield, SB/NS have dual wield. A 5 minute timer on purge makes slam effectively useless as a tool as well unless you start baiting out purges with numb.
3) Bow damage is effectively capped at 35 bow with little incentive to raise this damage. Where Rangers have the ability to just go full melee, and hunters have that broken ass pet to make up for it, scouts are left with a shield that as stated earlier, is useless.

This all changes obviously if you're grouping with an inf/mins, scouts at that point become a much better threat given their weaknesses are made up for by the other player, but any scout playing past RR5 knows that the class is an absolute disaster if you have any intention of solo'ing effectively.

Well yea, scout buffs are worse because they never have had a buff line to spec in. Are you saying they should get one? The classes were designed that way for a reason. That being said, you do have easy access to effective buff potions. Do hunters or rangers have effective "shield spec" buff potions? No. You can at least access at partial benefit of a entire other class's spec line for a few gold. Hunters and Rangers don't have that option.

2. If shield is so worthless, why does every scout spec it? Not everyone is running around with 5 min purge. Purge hurts a lot of classes, scout included. I personally only have purge 1. If a scout finds me it is lights out. Slam, crit shot, reg shot, melee, dead. And if I find a scout not much I can do. Crit shot, then they hit shield engage and I can't do anymore dmg..Dead. Sorry you can't beat every target every occasion. All archer classes are situational. You have to play to the strengths and accept the weaknesses. I can't beat any other class in melee either because I specced bow. You want to be melee competitive? Do what other archers are forced to do. Pick a high str/con race and forget about bow. Put all your points in slash and shield. Load up on melee RAs and buff potions. See how that works out. As far as bow spec, there we agree. But that affects all archer classes equally.

for scouts its better to go thrust for better style effects btw
Sat 29 Jun 2019 9:27 AM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:59 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Jun 2019 2:47 PM
Galandor wrote: ↑
Wed 26 Jun 2019 9:58 PM
The problem with scouts is the fact that solo they are by far the worst stealther in the game.

Reasons

1) They lack the buff lines of either Hunter or Ranger which prevents them from having higher dex/qui, and also another escape tool in the speed burst.
2) They're shield is effectively useless against every single stealther. Their block rate is cut in half by every single stealther, hunters have a pet, rangers have dual wield, SB/NS have dual wield. A 5 minute timer on purge makes slam effectively useless as a tool as well unless you start baiting out purges with numb.
3) Bow damage is effectively capped at 35 bow with little incentive to raise this damage. Where Rangers have the ability to just go full melee, and hunters have that broken ass pet to make up for it, scouts are left with a shield that as stated earlier, is useless.

This all changes obviously if you're grouping with an inf/mins, scouts at that point become a much better threat given their weaknesses are made up for by the other player, but any scout playing past RR5 knows that the class is an absolute disaster if you have any intention of solo'ing effectively.

Well yea, scout buffs are worse because they never have had a buff line to spec in. Are you saying they should get one? The classes were designed that way for a reason. That being said, you do have easy access to effective buff potions. Do hunters or rangers have effective "shield spec" buff potions? No. You can at least access at partial benefit of a entire other class's spec line for a few gold. Hunters and Rangers don't have that option.

2. If shield is so worthless, why does every scout spec it? Not everyone is running around with 5 min purge. Purge hurts a lot of classes, scout included. I personally only have purge 1. If a scout finds me it is lights out. Slam, crit shot, reg shot, melee, dead. And if I find a scout not much I can do. Crit shot, then they hit shield engage and I can't do anymore dmg..Dead. Sorry you can't beat every target every occasion. All archer classes are situational. You have to play to the strengths and accept the weaknesses. I can't beat any other class in melee either because I specced bow. You want to be melee competitive? Do what other archers are forced to do. Pick a high str/con race and forget about bow. Put all your points in slash and shield. Load up on melee RAs and buff potions. See how that works out. As far as bow spec, there we agree. But that affects all archer classes equally.

for scouts its better to go thrust for better style effects btw

Thrust has the worst styles in the game imo, as well as shitty growth rates compared to other base styles. Thrust is only worth speccing into to complement an advanced style (DW, CS, etc.)
Sat 29 Jun 2019 10:53 AM by inoeth
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Jun 2019 9:27 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:59 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Jun 2019 2:47 PM
Well yea, scout buffs are worse because they never have had a buff line to spec in. Are you saying they should get one? The classes were designed that way for a reason. That being said, you do have easy access to effective buff potions. Do hunters or rangers have effective "shield spec" buff potions? No. You can at least access at partial benefit of a entire other class's spec line for a few gold. Hunters and Rangers don't have that option.

2. If shield is so worthless, why does every scout spec it? Not everyone is running around with 5 min purge. Purge hurts a lot of classes, scout included. I personally only have purge 1. If a scout finds me it is lights out. Slam, crit shot, reg shot, melee, dead. And if I find a scout not much I can do. Crit shot, then they hit shield engage and I can't do anymore dmg..Dead. Sorry you can't beat every target every occasion. All archer classes are situational. You have to play to the strengths and accept the weaknesses. I can't beat any other class in melee either because I specced bow. You want to be melee competitive? Do what other archers are forced to do. Pick a high str/con race and forget about bow. Put all your points in slash and shield. Load up on melee RAs and buff potions. See how that works out. As far as bow spec, there we agree. But that affects all archer classes equally.

for scouts its better to go thrust for better style effects btw

Thrust has the worst styles in the game imo, as well as shitty growth rates compared to other base styles. Thrust is only worth speccing into to complement an advanced style (DW, CS, etc.)

34% asr side styl .8 gr is not bad, also snare combo is also not bad with 27s snare but yeah first style is without any gr. for anytime you rely on taunt, which is not exactly bad but also not very good. what does slash offer scouts? onlyo a good anytimer but no useful style effects at all
Sat 29 Jun 2019 2:21 PM by chois
problem is even with 50 shield / mob 9 / 322 than i had on my scout the blok rate is not important for all the points spent, max rate on dual was 38%, and when i see the evade rate on a ns ( its not rare 8/10 evade with 50+19slash/282 strengh) i still think there is a big problem , on which you have also the problem of the bow for all archers, ok its evade 7 but it s a component of the class for free, not a spec and ra you to have spent your points. to resume you fight with an ennemy who have always full defense rate on ( ty one handed weapon) when all your defense is reduced by 25% (blok and evade) cause you meet a lof time dual wielders.
Sat 29 Jun 2019 2:49 PM by Cadebrennus
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Jun 2019 10:53 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Jun 2019 9:27 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:59 PM
for scouts its better to go thrust for better style effects btw

Thrust has the worst styles in the game imo, as well as shitty growth rates compared to other base styles. Thrust is only worth speccing into to complement an advanced style (DW, CS, etc.)

34% asr side styl .8 gr is not bad, also snare combo is also not bad with 27s snare but yeah first style is without any gr. for anytime you rely on taunt, which is not exactly bad but also not very good. what does slash offer scouts? onlyo a good anytimer but no useful style effects at all

I always thought the side snare was pretty good in Slash, but that and the anytime are the only redeeming things about it. The advanced styles are so much better in Alb. Funny thing is that it's the opposite in Hib. CD growth rates suck, so CD is only really good for the effects (side stun, rear snare which is perfect for runners) and the base styles are far superior, especially Blades. DW is great in Alb, but that doesn't benefit Scouts unfortunately.
Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:26 AM by Khogor
50 shield +rr6 +sc+moblock 9 = 43.3% Block ..,Info from ig system msg.

Compared so SB Base !!! Evade 38,7%

Yes I can Go more weaponspecc (was 3X)....but you See what you get from 50 Skill Points and Like rr4l4 Ra Points into moblock.

The evade and dw Malus is free ....
Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:36 AM by Ceen
1vs1 is all about back arc, master this and you cut defense to zero
Most 1vs1 players rather depend on /face and defense lottery though.
Mon 8 Jul 2019 11:02 AM by Khogor
If Sin vs Sin id agree but scout lacks tools on phoenix.

First hit you have Debuff and Desease in you ...Bye Bye kiting and If mid 2x Debuff in Str....dont know which debuff hib desease brings.

Missing skillable mos ..so no Shot ...ore avading the sin.

As mentioned shield doesnt have as much of an effect people think .

Last the DW Styles seem to outdam Slash Styles ... mainhand Dam .

Perhaps going full Melee will get you closer to killing a sin but i doubt it. And you will definitly not kill a sin in the Slam Stun.

Have to say Most of my fights are against other sneaks specially SB NS Ranger Hunter in that order.

Hunter ist doable ...Ranger depending on ip....sb Not ....and NS propably the hardest because of dd rupt.

But i am open for all Tipps ......
Mon 8 Jul 2019 11:03 AM by Khogor
If Sin vs Sin id agree but scout lacks tools on phoenix.

First hit you have Debuff and Desease in you ...Bye Bye kiting and If mid 2x Debuff in Str....dont know which debuff hib desease brings.

Missing skillable mos ..so no Shot ...ore avading the sin.

As mentioned shield doesnt have as much of an effect people think .

Last the DW Styles seem to outdam Slash Styles ... mainhand Dam .

Perhaps going full Melee will get you closer to killing a sin but i doubt it. And you will definitly not kill a sin in the Slam Stun.

Have to say Most of my fights are against other sneaks specially SB NS Ranger Hunter in that order.

Hunter ist doable ...Ranger depending on ip....sb Not ....and NS propably the hardest because of dd rupt.

But i am open for all Tipps ......
Mon 8 Jul 2019 12:11 PM by Sepplord
Khogor wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:26 AM
50 shield +rr6 +sc+moblock 9 = 43.3% Block ..,Info from ig system msg.

Compared so SB Base !!! Evade 38,7%

Yes I can Go more weaponspecc (was 3X)....but you See what you get from 50 Skill Points and Like rr4l4 Ra Points into moblock.


what info? the chatlog? being hit by whom?
same question about evade

even if assassin could transform their evade onto a close teammate, the comparison would be bad, but since they can't it's totally nonsense


Khogor wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:26 AM
The evade and dw Malus is free ....
??? what is this trying to say ???


Edit:
While STRG-F searching the patchnotes to confirm that the dualwield penalty applies to both evade and block in the same way (aka 1/4 malus instead of 1/2 malus...a scout beneficial change since scout only gains without downside, toss up for assasins) i found this:
evade is more affected by defense penetration (this is NOT the dual wield reduction but def pen that everyone has)
guard (only blocking for others, not yourself) is less affected by defense penetration (this is NOT the dual wield reduction but def pen that everyone has)

Nitpicking patchnotes i could build a (ridicolous) argumentation how evade was nerfed and block was buffed etc...
I am posting it to show that cherrypicking comparisons doesn't lead to a proper reason for changes


In the end, the whole package has to be considered. Comparing evade to block in 1vs1 scenarios doesn't make sense, and in the end it is completely irrelevant if a character got stuff for "free" or specced for it when the end result is the same. Move assassins evade from baseline into stealth spec that caps at 30 and nothing would change in the slightest...but suddenly you would consider it differently because it isn't free?
Mon 8 Jul 2019 12:36 PM by Khogor
Yes Info came from chatlog ....nearly same (,xx dirrefence) in duel against r10 Inf ...ore r10 sb.

I Love the argument of scout blocking for others ....yes I aggree it is strong...but we are talking 1v1 here.

And I think it is an issue if the asassin base evade gives close to the same , lets say "defence" as a shild specced.

Its like Scout asking for 50% Dam Buff , when fighting in melee.
Mon 8 Jul 2019 12:56 PM by Sepplord
Khogor wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 12:36 PM
I Love the argument of scout blocking for others ....yes I aggree it is strong...but we are talking 1v1 here.

And i love when people say: but i am talking about 1vs1...
Should druids be taken seriously when they want their dmg upped until they can 1vs1 assasins too? Ofcourse not you will say, so explain to me how it is different with the scout?
Do you base 1vs1 strength on a pure melee engagement too, completely disregarding your ability to shoot arrows, just because you can't use it in a melee engagement?


Khogor wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 12:36 PM
And I think it is an issue if the asassin base evade gives close to the same , lets say "defence" as a shild specced.
I know, you already stated that. What you didn't state is a reason. I gave a pretty reasonable explanation (imo) why it is not a well thought approach to look at specific things and wether they are free or not. You ignored so let me repeat the question, directly to you this time:

Do you Khogor think anything changes if Assasins evade would be moved from baseline into stealth spec? The assasins wouldn't get it for free anymore, which seems to be a main frustration for you, so would that "fix" your concern while having no effect at all on endgame RvR-encounters?

Its like Scout asking for 50% Dam Buff , when fighting in melee.
No it isn't...but these threads sometimes feel like some scouts really believe that should happen...i am quite sure though you didn't mean to adress them with that sentence
Mon 8 Jul 2019 1:43 PM by Khogor
If you make Scouts the druids for stealth grps and his main purpose the grp play and blocking for others ...youre right ..nothing to add. But we both know this comparison is Not the Point.

For what reason does specially dw get the bonus ?
And yes I exactly ment the way i said it (perhaps sry for the bad english)......i dont get the point dw passiv cutting defence in half ore 1/4 ....i dont get a passiv Dam Bonus ore % hitchance as Well.

Point is the comparison of having to specc for it ore to get it for free. So comparison would not be the stealth Line but a Melee style line, because I specc shield mainly for Slam Not for Block in the First place.

To get Back to the topic.....

Give Scout the same buffs the other 2 have .
Ore some of the tools they need to geht Back to range and usw Bow.

Eg speed burst the other 2 archers have.

Scouts shine in grp but solo no comparison so the two other archers ...
Mon 8 Jul 2019 2:56 PM by Sepplord
you are dodging the point though...yes scouts do not have the group utility of a druid...but they have grouputility and stealthgroups/duos/trios etc. are a thing...more than solo stealthing if i look at the encounters i have all the time...

you shouldn't just look at your char and ONLY look at his 1vs1 strength while completely disregarding additonal utility

and it's not only dualwielders that get a special defense penetration, other "secondary"-melee speccs also get one.
Two handed weapons get parry-penetration / dual wielders get block/evade penetration and shields get guard/engage/block


Point is the comparison of having to specc for it ore to get it for free. So comparison would not be the stealth Line but a Melee style line, because I specc shield mainly for Slam Not for Block in the First place
again dodging the question....but okay then not the stealth line, give it to their weapon speclines...it would still not make a difference. All assasins would have it, speccs wouldn't change. But suddenly it would be "more balanced" for you?
That doesn't make sense...


I agree that scouts deserve a buff, i also think that hunter/ranger could be a tad too strong in melee currently, considering they still have ranged abilities. There are a lot of arguments to make regarding the current status quo. Comparing scout-blockchance to assassin-evade and complaining that the evade is "free" isn't one of them though.
Mon 8 Jul 2019 7:47 PM by Khogor
So maybe i dont get youre question.

i find it unfaid having to specc 50 skill ponts + rr and not getting a better defence then others who have a base evade chang as high as my block.

Ore have a sort of weapon which just negates my defence....for what reason ? If they had to skill for it ..ok less points to DAM skills lines ra´s ....
bit eg. 4L4 komplete defence ...Moblock 9 ....just gives the like same defence % as an inf gets for free.


Due to the fact on phoenix things like skilable mos are not a thing ..the archers ! lack the initial dam to sourvive an encounter with a sin ...no matter which ...
ranger and hunter seem ! so have the opportinuty to go high into melee specc....scout doesnt.

Played hib a while ago ..i NEVER ! found an ns ore ranger (mids may see it different) wo see a scout as a threat ore just as anything besides rp spender on legs...

I´d just like to have tools to go solo ...and not just adding ore grp
Tue 9 Jul 2019 6:53 AM by Sepplord
my point is that you shouldn't focus on what is specced for and what isn't....the package that results at the end is what is important


it'S not like all classes have the same spec-points, so why does it matter if we specc for evade or not? That's why i asked the question if you would be less frustrated if evade was moved into a speccline that all assassins have anyway. Nothing would change about the end-package, but they would be skilling for it, so suddenly it would be ok? I doubt you will say yes...so the argument of speccing for it is ridiculous


I´d just like to have tools to go solo ...and not just adding ore grp

I can understand that, and there are solo scouts out there. Maybe contact Tamy to get some tipps, but i guess he will also confirm that scouts aren't the best soloers. They bring group utility and if you up the rest of their package to be on par 1vs1...then they will be over the top when you consider that they ALSO have group-utility.
The defense malus of shield VS dualwielders was already nerfed 50% here...and instead of liking that you complain that it wasn't completely removed from the game...

Just because you want/choose to neglect parts of your characters toolkit, doesn't mean that the game should be catered towards your playstyle choice.

speccing shield gives you so much more than just slam and blockchance. You choose to not use what it offers, and then complain that you specc for something and don't get enough in return... it's really mindboggling that you don't even get this point i am explaining over and over again.
Tue 9 Jul 2019 7:24 AM by gotwqqd
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jul 2019 6:53 AM
my point is that you shouldn't focus on what is specced for and what isn't....the package that results at the end is what is important


it'S not like all classes have the same spec-points, so why does it matter if we specc for evade or not? That's why i asked the question if you would be less frustrated if evade was moved into a speccline that all assassins have anyway. Nothing would change about the end-package, but they would be skilling for it, so suddenly it would be ok? I doubt you will say yes...so the argument of speccing for it is ridiculous


I´d just like to have tools to go solo ...and not just adding ore grp

I can understand that, and there are solo scouts out there. Maybe contact Tamy to get some tipps, but i guess he will also confirm that scouts aren't the best soloers. They bring group utility and if you up the rest of their package to be on par 1vs1...then they will be over the top when you consider that they ALSO have group-utility.
The defense malus of shield VS dualwielders was already nerfed 50% here...and instead of liking that you complain that it wasn't completely removed from the game...

Just because you want/choose to neglect parts of your characters toolkit, doesn't mean that the game should be catered towards your playstyle choice.

speccing shield gives you so much more than just slam and blockchance. You choose to not use what it offers, and then complain that you specc for something and don't get enough in return... it's really mindboggling that you don't even get this point i am explaining over and over again.
Group utility?
More like group futility.
There are far better classes with shield that can be brought in a group
The scout is one of the worse candidates for group play and need help for solo play
Tue 9 Jul 2019 9:25 AM by Milksteak
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Jun 2019 10:53 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 29 Jun 2019 9:27 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 27 Jun 2019 5:59 PM
for scouts its better to go thrust for better style effects btw

Thrust has the worst styles in the game imo, as well as shitty growth rates compared to other base styles. Thrust is only worth speccing into to complement an advanced style (DW, CS, etc.)

34% asr side styl .8 gr is not bad, also snare combo is also not bad with 27s snare but yeah first style is without any gr. for anytime you rely on taunt, which is not exactly bad but also not very good. what does slash offer scouts? onlyo a good anytimer but no useful style effects at all

You get a better anytime style and the slow side style is amazing. Also the block chain has good growth rate. So yeah slash is superior on any scout. The only good thrust style is the asr side style.
Tue 9 Jul 2019 9:30 AM by Sepplord
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jul 2019 7:24 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jul 2019 6:53 AM
my point is that you shouldn't focus on what is specced for and what isn't....the package that results at the end is what is important


it'S not like all classes have the same spec-points, so why does it matter if we specc for evade or not? That's why i asked the question if you would be less frustrated if evade was moved into a speccline that all assassins have anyway. Nothing would change about the end-package, but they would be skilling for it, so suddenly it would be ok? I doubt you will say yes...so the argument of speccing for it is ridiculous


I´d just like to have tools to go solo ...and not just adding ore grp

I can understand that, and there are solo scouts out there. Maybe contact Tamy to get some tipps, but i guess he will also confirm that scouts aren't the best soloers. They bring group utility and if you up the rest of their package to be on par 1vs1...then they will be over the top when you consider that they ALSO have group-utility.
The defense malus of shield VS dualwielders was already nerfed 50% here...and instead of liking that you complain that it wasn't completely removed from the game...

Just because you want/choose to neglect parts of your characters toolkit, doesn't mean that the game should be catered towards your playstyle choice.

speccing shield gives you so much more than just slam and blockchance. You choose to not use what it offers, and then complain that you specc for something and don't get enough in return... it's really mindboggling that you don't even get this point i am explaining over and over again.
Group utility?
More like group futility.
There are far better classes with shield that can be brought in a group
The scout is one of the worse candidates for group play and need help for solo play

yes? which class would be better suited to group with a minstrel and an infi than a scout?


stealthers group too, you know...and albion already has the abomination of minstrel being the jack of all trades with good solo and good grouping utilities. Don't need to shoot scout up onto that level too, just because some people wanted to play a character with grouping tools completely solo and are now upset that they aren't solo top dogs

it'S the same with archers complaining about losing to assassins in melee...you pick a ranged-hybrid and then want to go toe to toe with a pure melee class, don't expect the odds to be in your favor (the you being general here, nnot directly meaning you gotmagi)
Tue 9 Jul 2019 10:48 AM by Khogor
Thx for repeating the question but i think we wont find a solution here. Because I cant make my point more cleare .

Imagine you and youre Brother both want a House ...you Work for it....youre bro Receiver ist as a gift.

Now you both have a House ....fair enough?
But youre bro Spende His Money on a Car ..a Pool so on.

Still fair because you both have a House.

Thats my point with the specc ...If NOT spending Like 4l4 on moblock ..the defence would be far lower.

So the sin gets the def and has the Ra Points for the offence.


Maybe i'll try full melee Scout one day and see how it works.

Right now the combination of missing abilitys and stuff the other 2 archers have... Scout stays behind.
Tue 9 Jul 2019 12:00 PM by Druth
Khogor wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jul 2019 10:48 AM
Thx for repeating the question but i think we wont find a solution here. Because I cant make my point more cleare .

Imagine you and youre Brother both want a House ...you Work for it....youre bro Receiver ist as a gift.

Now you both have a House ....fair enough?
But youre bro Spende His Money on a Car ..a Pool so on.

Still fair because you both have a House.

Thats my point with the specc ...If NOT spending Like 4l4 on moblock ..the defence would be far lower.

So the sin gets the def and has the Ra Points for the offence.


Maybe i'll try full melee Scout one day and see how it works.

Right now the combination of missing abilitys and stuff the other 2 archers have... Scout stays behind.

Not denying scouts are the worst archer, but you can't compare class to class, in DaoC, and conclude one needs a buff.
The 3 archer classes are very different, the only thing that they have in common is stealth mechanic, even their archery is different.
Tue 9 Jul 2019 12:08 PM by Sepplord
Khogor wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jul 2019 10:48 AM
Thx for repeating the question but i think we wont find a solution here. Because I cant make my point more cleare .

Imagine you and youre Brother both want a House ...you Work for it....youre bro Receiver ist as a gift.

Now you both have a House ....fair enough?
But youre bro Spende His Money on a Car ..a Pool so on.

Still fair because you both have a House.

Thats my point with the specc ...If NOT spending Like 4l4 on moblock ..the defence would be far lower.

So the sin gets the def and has the Ra Points for the offence.


Maybe i'll try full melee Scout one day and see how it works.

Right now the combination of missing abilitys and stuff the other 2 archers have... Scout stays behind.

Assassins don'T start at lvl50...then you MIGHT have a small point...but do we really want to get into levelling comparisons and how that should be balanced (hint: archers have it far easier than assassins).
Because that's the analogy if you fix it (i really don't like the analogy itself but i'll try to stick with your example):

You and your brother both work for the house (both chars lvl), you get payed and buy your house, your brother gets paid differently and gets half the house for free...
In the end you would look at both houses (the package i am always referring to) and the work you put in. Aka judge the whole thing, and not fret because your brother got the carpet for free disregarding that he payed twice as much for the bathroom.

Now imagine your house having a pool, and his doesn't (aka groupabilities and ranged capabilties). Your house is awesome for pool parties (grouping / siegefights / ranged adding / etc. ), while your brothers house has a huge room inside for parties in the winter (melee fights). You now complain that you can't have as awesome parties in the winter as him, disregarding the nice pool you got because you don't like to swim.... well...too bad, you bought the wrong house then (play the wrong wrong class for what you want to do)
Tue 9 Jul 2019 1:12 PM by Khogor
The Point is Not that i want to Beat a Sin in melee...AND
Do Dam Ranged AND bei great in grp....that would be absoltely overpowered.

Correct me ...Most encounters will be against other sneaks ? ....Stealthed.....so ....no Archery for you.

Desease with First Hit...no kiting for you....after that a r3 NS will tare you to pieces .....Sidenote..was the Str/Kon Debuff Same Like in live ? ...cool ! .amount of Debuff is the same but my stats are lower Like on live.

Just trolling....you numb ...2sek ...no range with desease and even without Not enough space between enemy and you .....If He purges ...WE all know ...good changes for you. If the Legion + Pit doesnt heal more then you damaged during Stun time.

Look at youre so called damage against other archers which are selfbuffed +Pot + Buff Ra If they chose.


The % i mentioned ist max Block with moblock 9!
OK ...i dont do Melee Dam ...all good ...i am an Archer...
But giv ne my max def i spared my skillpoints for.


Gimme the Tools scouts used to have ...Not only to be an adder ....ore zerger ore free RP.
Tue 9 Jul 2019 1:56 PM by Sepplord
you are again creating a scenario where you cannot utilize a huge part of your class, and complain that you aren't good in that scenario...


The Point is not that i want to Beat a Sin in melee...AND
Do Dam Ranged AND bei great in grp....that would be absoltely overpowered.

Good, that we agree on that.
Since i am quite convinced that scouts will neither lose their bows (range) nor their shields (group-utility) the logical conclusion is that you have to be disadvantaged versus sins in melee...

Because otherwise you are actually asking for the above
Tue 9 Jul 2019 2:12 PM by Khogor
Not created ...."everyday" Life my friend.

But perhaps you can help me how to escape Melee ..and get Back to range Combat ...

You seem to know 😀
Tue 9 Jul 2019 3:34 PM by Sepplord
starting off to not run around solo in stealth in areas that are commonly camped by assassins...
i see plenty of archers shooting people everyday, go ask them how they do it

for getting away: i dunno, i'm not a scout. Probably try grouping with someone that can snare, afaik all stealthers have tools for that, you would also get to use what makes you unique VS midgard/hibernias counterparts and guard your mate then.

Stop complaining that you picked a ranged-group utility class and have to beat the odds when playing it solo in melee.



Tamy seems to be a very good solo scout. Ask him/her. It seems there are even assassins that run away from him/her when he initiates combat with them. But be prepared, i am sure he will also tell you that solo-scouts are not topdog in melee
Tue 9 Jul 2019 4:11 PM by Khogor
So youre solution for the Balance issues is...Go grp....and Go to areas No one goes......ore few Go ....😂😂

Seems legit....

And guess what..i did....i talked to the Most top Scouts
On the Server asking how to...and guess what ...Most answers we're exactly the same and more ore less things i mentioned.

Even the Tip drop weapon completly Go 50 Bow ..and Just so Slam was there....why...because the Slam does more dam ...any Melee style could do.


And as someone Not playing the class ....

Perhaps you should not argue about it ...ore Play one... i'll help levling .....and see youreself

Ig Mordack ...cotact me
Tue 9 Jul 2019 7:55 PM by Sepplord
nah thanks, i have no interest in playing a groupstealther, so i chose something suitable for the playstyle

the rest of your comment is just turning my words around, and you know what you are doing there. You just can't fathom the idea that you made a bad class choice for melee-stealth soloing. I can understand, that must suck to realise and therefor it's normal that you are denying it as much as possible
The solution to the balance issues with and between the archers is buffing archery and nerfing ranger/hunter melee. Archery is what the classes are about, thats why we refer to them as archers.


But even if everything got perfectly balanced, scouts would still be the worst solo class, since they must have a tradeoff to their superior group-utility that hunters/rangers simply don't have. It's impossible to make them equal in 1vs1 without the grouputility making them too strong in stealthgroups. That's a fact, simple logic. Noone needs to play a scout to realise that, even someone not even playing DAoC at all should be able to see the reason
Tue 9 Jul 2019 11:20 PM by Cadebrennus
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jul 2019 7:55 PM
nah thanks, i have no interest in playing a groupstealther, so i chose something suitable for the playstyle

the rest of your comment is just turning my words around, and you know what you are doing there. You just can't fathom the idea that you made a bad class choice for melee-stealth soloing. I can understand, that must suck to realise and therefor it's normal that you are denying it as much as possible
The solution to the balance issues with and between the archers is buffing archery and nerfing ranger/hunter melee. Archery is what the classes are about, thats why we refer to them as archers.


But even if everything got perfectly balanced, scouts would still be the worst solo class, since they must have a tradeoff to their superior group-utility that hunters/rangers simply don't have. It's impossible to make them equal in 1vs1 without the grouputility making them too strong in stealthgroups. That's a fact, simple logic. Noone needs to play a scout to realise that, even someone not even playing DAoC at all should be able to see the reason

What about a groupable Archer as opposed to a groupable stealther? I did the solo stealther thing for a long time, but when I switched to low stealth (11-19 stealth) I had much more fun running in a Visi group than I did solo stealthing. Granted, this patch level doesn't have as many tools for Archers as current live does, and other games have Archers implemented much better in groups than DAOC at any patch level does. That being said, what are your thoughts on having an Archer as a better group class than a solo class?
Wed 10 Jul 2019 6:51 AM by Sepplord
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Jul 2019 11:20 PM
What about a groupable Archer as opposed to a groupable stealther? I did the solo stealther thing for a long time, but when I switched to low stealth (11-19 stealth) I had much more fun running in a Visi group than I did solo stealthing. Granted, this patch level doesn't have as many tools for Archers as current live does, and other games have Archers implemented much better in groups than DAOC at any patch level does. That being said, what are your thoughts on having an Archer as a better group class than a solo class?

Personally i am not interested in doing it. But i also don't run visi-grps at all outside of smallmanning with my RL-friends. I often have to leave for 1second to 15minutes when one of the kids wakes up for example and it's just not feasible to burden this on randoms.
That said, i know you like the concept of running archers in visible groups, and i think it isn't as bad as the general perception is, but it is still suboptimal and doesn't offer an optimum. At low-medium RR it might be decent, but the higher RR becomes the more would the archer be missing usefull RAs for his group. Though the scout with his shield definitily makes much more sense in a visible group than a hunter/ranger. I didn't want to go into this as i don't think it would help my argument adding it to the discussion. For one, noone does it currently so it would not be taken seriously, and much more important the usage of scouts in visible groups wouldn't interfere with making them on par 1vs1. A scout being on par in 1vs1melee-solo-stealth could still be balanced in visi-group RvR. But he can't be balanced in a 2vs2 or 3vs3 of stealthers facing off since then his guard would flip the balance with nothing on the enemy team to counterbalance it.
Wed 10 Jul 2019 7:37 AM by Khogor
Can WE please cut the ..grp thing ?

I dont think Scout ore Minst we're originally designed to be "grp stealther",otherwise sry...you picked the wrong realm 😂

I aggree Block in grp ist strong,but perhaps the Scout has it because of the shield Line having it ..Like active Block which was nefed because people Just Shot and once in melee engaged 30sek and slamed again...and Not to be a grp stealther, Like perhaps minst has stealth because
Back in the das the Basic class was ,dont remember the Name "Bandit" for the 3 sneaks which had stealth..


And again...it is Not the Point ,Melee but the possibility to escape and get to range.....

Played SB Classic ,you had the Chance to Skill Ra mos but you kept it lower and skilked mop so on,first hit was fromthe Archer Most time .because sie skilked mos higher. suxx....but after that odds we're in youre favor.

Leave the mos ....and the sin gets the upper Hand right away....

......more dots !
Wed 10 Jul 2019 12:05 PM by stinsfire
Khogor wrote: ↑
Wed 10 Jul 2019 7:37 AM
Can WE please cut the ..grp thing ?

I dont think Scout ore Minst we're originally designed to be "grp stealther"......otherwise sry...you picked the wrong realm 😂

I aggree Block in grp ist strong......but....perhaps....the Scout has it because of the shield Line having it ..Like active Block which was nefed because people Just Shot and once in melee engaged 30sek and slamed again...and Not to be a grp stealther.....Like perhaps minst has stealth because
Back in the das the Basic class was ...dont remember the Name.....Bandit ...for the 3 sneaks ....which had stealth..


And again...it is Not the Point ...Melee......but the possibility to escape.....and get to range.....

Played SB Classic......you had the Chance to Skill Ra mos ....but you kept it lower .....first hit was fromthe Archer Most time .because sie skilked mos....suxx....but after that odds we're in youre favor......

Leave the mos ....and the sin gets the upper Hand right away....

I think your post needs more dots to be readable.
Wed 10 Jul 2019 12:55 PM by gotwqqd
The only time scouts really felt good in a group, IMO, is when you could fire off true sight and uncover stealthers. It felt like there was meaning and purpose.
Fri 12 Jul 2019 1:53 PM by nixxo87
Why do I have a 15% flat rate to outright miss slam on an opponent facing away? Seems ridiculous given that assassins also own a 30-40% evade rate. I don't know how many times I've cursed at this server for "failing" slam only to get face perfed, its dumb af.

42+14 shield btw.
Fri 12 Jul 2019 2:31 PM by Mavella
Because slam has no hit bonus while still being a 9sec duration anytime stun. Every attack not modified by a hit bonus or an opponent with no defense bonus/penalty you'll have a flat 15%ish miss rate on.

This is no different than it was on live. Until things like accuracy buffs were added.

If you want to pop them out of stealth asap use amethyst slash or another high hit chance style to lower your chance to miss. If they face you you'll still have a high chance to be evaded however.
Sat 13 Jul 2019 7:11 AM by Khogor
If solo dont Run towards an asassin ...youll get pad If the Sin isnt sleeping 😂

Encountered a Ranger yesterday ...1v1 ...me ip1 purge Up both heales . Dont know exactly what He used beside purge on my Slam.
He Opener with crit while i was Shooting som mids.


I lost the Fight ,no Problem som mistakes on my Side...

Looked at the Dam He did on me ...and tryed to get the specc He uses . The good Sport answered so thx for that hoping next duel i will do better.

But guess what....lower Bow specc ...lower weapon Specc.....high skilled into path ...Medium DW....

He outdamed my Bow dam by Like 50 +dam Add from path and Higher ....melee resis on His Side i think but nearly dubble my Dam in melee.

Melee specced Ranger ..no rapid fire...OK ...but sorry If a class is better in both fields because of Buff and Buff enhancing Ras, Something needs to be done.

Perhaps ill find a Hunter this evening to see the Dam on the mid Side.
Fri 19 Jul 2019 10:41 AM by warblade
I'm RR 5.2 atm. And running with this build

Any thoughts?

https://playphoenix.online/charplan/?class=Scout&level=50&realmRank=42&view=skills&s14=44&s31=35&s58=32&s73=42&r170=4&r188=2&r259=5
Sun 28 Jul 2019 1:40 AM by bm01
I don't understand why it took so much time for people to realize that scout is a terrible class to play solo. It always relied on a gimmick combo that no longer even works since purge is on a 15/10 minutes timer. It has the lowest Q/D (hence weakest bow damage), weakest melee damage, lowest AF, resist disadvantage, no speed to flee or pet to interrupt. But hey, at least you have 100~200 more range! At very high RR it may somewhat work because you have MoB and Dodger was removed, but it's still a shame that there is such a big discrepancy between all three archer classes.
Thu 8 Aug 2019 7:43 PM by Leandrys
Nobody heard of anything potentially coming for scouts ? I've always had a crush for that class, but honnestly, here, it seems so much weaker than other archers, it's meant to be the best archer but Phoenix made it the worst, dat epic lack of 43 dext and quick compared to other ones, just that, it's so stupid.

Ofc i know it can work, anything can work, but chances arn't the same, at one point where it doesn't feel balanced anymore at all.
Thu 8 Aug 2019 8:18 PM by Niget
Honestly they do just fine.
If you want to play the class work to it's strengths.
Purge a problem? Obviously most Purge right away. Use a lower duration stun so they Purge with lower immunity. Then slam and snare, kite and shoot. Wear down your enemy and use reactionary styles to get any damage from your 1h weapon.
Scouts have the highest defense of all archers.

They get a huge bonus for getting to stealth group with minis. Alb small man stealth groups are the most effective in the game.

It may be harder to solo at low rank but they are the toughest when you get some ras into their melee.
Sat 10 Aug 2019 12:09 PM by Ulio ah ah
Hi everyone,
there being no possibility against the others hidden in melee I would try a spec type:

45 stealth
45 bow
42 shield
12 weapon

what do you think?
(at least for the first ranks)
Sat 10 Aug 2019 3:56 PM by Cadebrennus
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Aug 2019 12:09 PM
Hi everyone,
there being no possibility against the others hidden in melee I would try a spec type:

45 stealth
45 bow
42 shield
12 weapon

what do you think?
(at least for the first ranks)

You will be food for Assassins. At least get 21 Slash so that you can use the side snare. Basically what you need to do if Sniper spec is to Slam, use the Slash side style to snare them, THEN run and get distance to kite.

I'm not going to comment on the high stealth though because I have a very different opinion on stealth for Archers.
Sun 11 Aug 2019 8:46 AM by jelzinga_EU
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Sat 10 Aug 2019 12:09 PM
Hi everyone,
there being no possibility against the others hidden in melee I would try a spec type:

45 stealth
45 bow
42 shield
12 weapon

what do you think?
(at least for the first ranks)

It is almost pointless to go for the higher stealth, as all it gives is higher speed. Detection stays the same, so once detected (or once unstealthed in combat) it offers nothing in return.

The damage-increase after 52+ composite Bow is small, but obviously there is a difference, so if you accept you're useless in melee you might as well take Bow up. Think you end up with something like 40 Stealth (assuming RR1, 42 Shield, 45 Bow, 24'ish melee)
Sun 11 Aug 2019 1:56 PM by Ulio ah ah
thank you

I think I'll start with:

40 stealth
40 bow
42 shield
31 slash

going up with the ranks I will try a more dueling spec.

higlander sucks, right?

(sorry for my abuse of Google translator)
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:57 PM by nixxo87
Fix fucking scouts, they are the worst archer class in this game. No Moa, no pet, a shield that gets purged every fight, 1hd weak dmg. literally about to delete this character so i dont waste any time on it anymore.
Mon 12 Aug 2019 1:16 AM by Hodge
How about give shield a root style at 20 and 40? Perhaps a self buff that snares attacker? Something to allow distance from melee since there is not an easy way to give one handers higher dps output without making them a reaver.

Does not help melee output, but might help survive. I think tanks could use shield styles too.
Mon 12 Aug 2019 8:03 AM by Cadebrennus
nixxo87 wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:57 PM
Fix fucking scouts, they are the worst archer class in this game. No Moa, no pet, a shield that gets purged every fight, 1hd weak dmg. literally about to delete this character so i dont waste any time on it anymore.

The 1h damage is equal to the 1h damage in Mid and Hib. If you spec shit melee expect shit results. That being said CD does add offhand DPS (at the cost of no shield defense), and Mid 2h/Spear is the equivalent of CD+MH (again, at the cost of no shield defense), not to mention the extra damage on top of that from the dog.
Mon 12 Aug 2019 8:03 AM by Cadebrennus
nixxo87 wrote: ↑
Sun 11 Aug 2019 10:57 PM
Fix fucking scouts, they are the worst archer class in this game. No Moa, no pet, a shield that gets purged every fight, 1hd weak dmg. literally about to delete this character so i dont waste any time on it anymore.

The 1h damage is equal to the 1h damage in Mid and Hib. If you spec shit melee expect shit results. That being said CD does add offhand DPS (at the cost of no shield defense), and Mid 2h/Spear is the equivalent of CD+MH (again, at the cost of no shield defense), not to mention the extra damage on top of that from the dog.
Mon 12 Aug 2019 11:29 PM by Niget
For a solo spec. 36 stealth 44 thrust 42 shield 30 bow would do just fine!
That's what I would start with on a scout for solo play. Anytime snare and 9sec stun and ws to boot.
I found little difference between 35 spec and 30 spec damage.
Mon 26 Aug 2019 9:25 PM by Makrist
Dont spec 35 bow for damage you spec it for rapidfire. I can keep healers and often casters interrupted until they run out of range with rapidfire...especially healers. Once you possess purge it helps with those 1v1 caster encounters as well. In its current form there isnt any reason to go above 35.
Mon 26 Aug 2019 10:41 PM by Cadebrennus
Makrist wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Aug 2019 9:25 PM
Dont spec 35 bow for damage you spec it for rapidfire. I can keep healers and often casters interrupted until they run out of range with rapidfire...especially healers. Once you possess purge it helps with those 1v1 caster encounters as well. In its current form there isnt any reason to go above 35.

It's phenomenal how good Rapid Fire is when Archers are playing like support classes rather than playing like leeches.
Mon 26 Aug 2019 11:37 PM by Makrist
If only i wasnt a complete wet noodle in every other area of the game. We (Scouts) seem to be limited to volley and rapidfire caster lockdown in large encounters (in 8man it isnt quite as potent). Other than running in stealth groups its downright painful to try and hunt, and there are honestly few visibles that understand our usefulness when played right. I have flat out been refused a group slot in a moving BG because the cleric quote "Hates Scouts and stealthers".
Tue 27 Aug 2019 6:50 AM by Sepplord
even if i don't like the mentality of not grouping stealthers per se...i can somewhat understand it

i mean, the stealther picks a class that is just sub-par in visible content but then still wants to group?
Why did the stealth not make a class that brings more to the group if he wanted to group?
Because he also wants the benefits of being a solo-/smallmen char and is willing to be a burden on visible groups he joins for his personal benefit when he is not in a group

So some people decide to not support those players with their group
Tue 27 Aug 2019 10:49 AM by Makrist
This is so short sighted and naive. I suppose the paladin, friar, armsman, and infiltrator are also useless class picks?
Each one of them has less utility in large fights and keep siege than my scout. Imagine if you will playing a class because...wait for it...its an enjoyable class to play! We were in a BG of 40 people taking keeps while going for relics not an 8man roaming group. Scouts are literal walking siege engines with volley just like other archers. Two or three can tear apart catapults and rams in keep defense and siege the way nobody else is capable of. They also have utility in open field large encounters as support as a backup peeler and caster lockdown. In fact with such high dex and MoB, slam, and a snare positional they function great as healer guards in the backfield against melee while still being able to engage fron rank enemies. The main issue is outside those very specific situations we arent great at any one thing.

Scouts have problems with their class to be sure, but it doesnt compare to small minded linear thinking realm mates with no imagination.
Tue 27 Aug 2019 11:21 AM by Cadebrennus
Makrist wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Aug 2019 10:49 AM
This is so short sighted and naive. I suppose the paladin, friar, armsman, and infiltrator are also useless class picks?
Each one of them has less utility in large fights and keep siege than my scout. Imagine if you will playing a class because...wait for it...its an enjoyable class to play! We were in a BG of 40 people taking keeps while going for relics not an 8man roaming group. Scouts are literal walking siege engines with volley just like other archers. Two or three can tear apart catapults and rams in keep defense and siege the way nobody else is capable of. They also have utility in open field large encounters as support as a backup peeler and caster lockdown. In fact with such high dex and MoB, slam, and a snare positional they function great as healer guards in the backfield against melee while still being able to engage fron rank enemies. The main issue is outside those very specific situations we arent great at any one thing.

Scouts have problems with their class to be sure, but it doesnt compare to small minded linear thinking realm mates with no imagination.

This warms my heart. I've been talking about Archers being useful as Caster lockdowns since 2012-2013, and everyone said it was a dumb idea. Fast forward to 2019 and it's the meta. Glad to see that people are finally seeing the light.
Tue 27 Aug 2019 11:28 AM by Makrist
The main issue i have is scouts have been forced into this box called "stealth groups" and now we will never be able to escape. Want to balance the class a little with a boost? Sorry...cant fix your broken spec line or give you any more tools as a visible. It'll have too much impact in "The stealth War"...now excuse us while we boost the Weaponskill/Con debuff on assassins.

I love the class but it truly feels like the bastard child of DAoC. Worse even than necros before the QoL enhancements on Phoenix.
Tue 27 Aug 2019 2:04 PM by Sepplord
Makrist wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Aug 2019 10:49 AM
This is so short sighted and naive. I suppose the paladin, friar, armsman, and infiltrator are also useless class picks?
Each one of them has less utility in large fights and keep siege than my scout. Imagine if you will playing a class because...wait for it...its an enjoyable class to play! We were in a BG of 40 people taking keeps while going for relics not an 8man roaming group. Scouts are literal walking siege engines with volley just like other archers. Two or three can tear apart catapults and rams in keep defense and siege the way nobody else is capable of. They also have utility in open field large encounters as support as a backup peeler and caster lockdown. In fact with such high dex and MoB, slam, and a snare positional they function great as healer guards in the backfield against melee while still being able to engage fron rank enemies. The main issue is outside those very specific situations we arent great at any one thing.

Scouts have problems with their class to be sure, but it doesnt compare to small minded linear thinking realm mates with no imagination.

completely agree, i was just explaining not saying i follow the reasoning...especially scouts can be pretty usefull with their shield.
if i am in a zerg, i take anyone that needs a spot anyways. It could be a lowlvl assassin or a third shaman....it's zerg and why should i let someone run solo if he wants a group and i have slots open
Tue 27 Aug 2019 2:36 PM by Horus
I'm thinking about rolling a scout.

Given the current gameplay environment it will be..

Stealth 35
Slash 21
Shield 50
Bow: 42

This is a ranged dmg / defensive spec. You are not built to win melee 1 on 1 against SBs/NS However given the high defense and multiple stun options you should be able to stretch out a fight or even get a 2nd stun in after the 1st purge. 42 bow gives you plenty of ranged damage for running with a BG. You are practically invulnerable to arrows and Rangers are the FOTM in Hib. That looks pretty attractive to me...
Tue 27 Aug 2019 3:20 PM by Makrist
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Aug 2019 2:36 PM
I'm thinking about rolling a scout.

Given the current gameplay environment it will be..

Stealth 35
Slash 21
Shield 50
Bow: 42

This is a ranged dmg / defensive spec. You are not built to win melee 1 on 1 against SBs/NS However given the high defense and multiple stun options you should be able to stretch out a fight or even get a 2nd stun in after the 1st purge. 42 bow gives you plenty of ranged damage for running with a BG. You are practically invulnerable to arrows and Rangers are the FOTM in Hib. That looks pretty attractive to me...
Your assumptions are wrong. SB and NS will eat you alive regardless of shield spec and 50 versus 42 wont save you. Your bow damage increase between 35 and 50 is approximately 15-20 per shot which is an insanely imbalanced scaling of damage for the points invested. With 21 slash you also will suffer eve more against assassins. Their evade rate is high enough after WS/Con application you really shouldnt help them out by going mid 30's on your composite weapon skill.

You do you....but you are shooting yourself in the leg in quite a few ways.
Tue 27 Aug 2019 4:44 PM by Ulio ah ah
My scout is currently liv 15 ^^ (inconnu, 10 str / 10 dex / 10 qui).

I'm uncertain

38 stealth
39 slash
42 shield
35 bow

or

40 stealth
31 slash
42 shield
40 bow

I will always play with a minstrel.

any advice for the first RA?
Tue 27 Aug 2019 6:53 PM by Makrist
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Aug 2019 4:44 PM
My scout is currently liv 15 ^^ (inconnu, 10 str / 10 dex / 10 qui).

I'm uncertain

38 stealth
39 slash
42 shield
35 bow

or

40 stealth
31 slash
42 shield
40 bow

I will always play with a minstrel.

any advice for the first RA?

Go for lower stealth higher weapon IMO. You wont hide from assassins either way, most everyone else you want to hide from is 50/50 depending on whether or not they walk over top of you. Extra weaponskill will help with any aspect of a duo.

RA selection: my priority based on my experience.
Tireless (Mandatory)
LW (Mandatory)
Volley (8pts to close out 2L0 for keep and tower siege)
Purge2 (alternative to volley if keeps dont interest you)

After that a mix of Aug qui and MoArchery to get your rapidfire draw time down to 1.5 seconds. This will vary depending on template, statring stats, and bow delay.

After that a mix of Aug Dex and Falcons Eye to increase damage. Play around with this for the best result. You could also focus on survival skills at this point like IP, Purge3, or Empty Mind. Depends on playstyle IMO.
Wed 28 Aug 2019 8:51 AM by inoeth
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Aug 2019 2:36 PM
I'm thinking about rolling a scout.

Given the current gameplay environment it will be..

Stealth 35
Slash 21
Shield 50
Bow: 42

This is a ranged dmg / defensive spec. You are not built to win melee 1 on 1 against SBs/NS However given the high defense and multiple stun options you should be able to stretch out a fight or even get a 2nd stun in after the 1st purge. 42 bow gives you plenty of ranged damage for running with a BG. You are practically invulnerable to arrows and Rangers are the FOTM in Hib. That looks pretty attractive to me...

omg .... if bow spec, why 50 shield?

btw had a fight yesterday vs skairipia and blew everything, still lost (rr7 hunter)
would be interesting what spec skairipia has.... my guess 50 shield high weapon low bow
Wed 28 Aug 2019 10:10 AM by chois
Not at all i ve 31 shield😁 and it s enough u don t need 9 sec stun better twice 5sec with a cool down of 20 than 1 with 45sec...
Wed 28 Aug 2019 10:33 AM by Ulio ah ah
tell me your spec, please ^^
Wed 28 Aug 2019 11:19 AM by gotwqqd
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Aug 2019 10:33 AM
tell me your spec, please ^^

My guess
31 shield
35 bow
Composite 50 stealth
Rest weapon
Wed 28 Aug 2019 12:34 PM by Ulio ah ah
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Aug 2019 11:19 AM
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Aug 2019 10:33 AM
tell me your spec, please ^^

My guess
31 shield
35 bow
Composite 50 stealth
Rest weapon

Ty
Wed 28 Aug 2019 7:46 PM by Cadebrennus
chois wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Aug 2019 10:10 AM
Not at all i ve 31 shield😁 and it s enough u don t need 9 sec stun better twice 5sec with a cool down of 20 than 1 with 45sec...

That's EXACTLY the same philosophy I have for my 35 Shield Merc
Wed 28 Aug 2019 8:12 PM by chois
we have a 6 sec stun after blok on thrust and chain on slash for 5 sec with good damage so i prefer stun and make damage in same time so the 9 or 11 sec stun ..... to see all this points wasted when it s purged, even if u open with numb, better to have the possibilty to make 2 5 sec stun in a fight, and you still around 30% blok rate with mob 5 so it s clearly enough to land a stun
Wed 28 Aug 2019 8:39 PM by Freedomcall
chois wrote: ↑
Wed 28 Aug 2019 10:10 AM
Not at all i ve 31 shield😁 and it s enough u don t need 9 sec stun better twice 5sec with a cool down of 20 than 1 with 45sec...

how can 5sec stun's immunity timer be 20 sec? hope that was typo of 30, or your plan is somewhat mistaken.
Wed 28 Aug 2019 9:15 PM by Alistre
Does anyone recall how much bow speed is gained per point of qui? I recall something to the tune of - for every 6pts in qui, your draw time is 1% faster. That was many years ago though...could be dreaming this up lol
Thu 29 Aug 2019 12:13 AM by Cadebrennus
If your Shield is at cap speed and your reflexes are fast enough you can even land the side snare within Numb's 2 second window. Thanks to /switch I can even swap to DW on my Merc and start the side chain within Numb's 2 second window.
Wed 4 Sep 2019 7:01 AM by Ulio ah ah
Level 50 is coming, I am currently training thrust but I am not very convinced, especially for the terrible at any time.
Is it better to opt for a slash?

(race inconnu, 44 weapon)
Wed 4 Sep 2019 7:27 AM by chois
Use taunt and not puncture and it will be better, the fight in melee are short so don t care about the defensive malus due to the taunt style.
Wed 4 Sep 2019 10:08 AM by Cadebrennus
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Sep 2019 7:01 AM
Level 50 is coming, I am currently training thrust but I am not very convinced, especially for the terrible at any time.
Is it better to opt for a slash?

(race inconnu, 44 weapon)

If you're already 44 thrust then you're good with the anytime snare chain which will help you with kiting
Wed 4 Sep 2019 5:47 PM by Ulio ah ah
chois wrote: ↑
Wed 4 Sep 2019 7:27 AM
Use taunt and not puncture and it will be better, the fight in melee are short so don t care about the defensive malus due to the taunt style.

ok then i'm doing well, thanks.
Tue 10 Sep 2019 3:12 PM by iamsaitam
Can someone explain the reason for:

"Critical Shot only checks for targets engaged in melee. Critical shot provide enemy target with 15 seconds of immunity critical shots."

Can you crit someone casting? If so, then I get the second part. But what about stealther vs stealther mechanics? I guess scouts are no match against other stealthers till they got 3 RR in between. Perhaps excluding hunters, those guys got the end of the stick since day one x)
Tue 10 Sep 2019 3:37 PM by Sepplord
iamsaitam wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Sep 2019 3:12 PM
Can someone explain the reason for:

"Critical Shot only checks for targets engaged in melee. Critical shot provide enemy target with 15 seconds of immunity critical shots."

Can you crit someone casting? If so, then I get the second part. But what about stealther vs stealther mechanics? I guess scouts are no match against other stealthers till they got 3 RR in between. Perhaps excluding hunters, those guys got the end of the stick since day one x)

Lots of things about critshots got changed (for example you couldn'T critshot a target that was sprinting...with everyone always sprinting here that would have been quite sad for archers), and as downside they made it so you cannot use critshot over and over again on the same target.


I have no idea what you are on to in the second half though? Why would it make sense when you can critshot someone casting? And how is it different in stealth VS stealth mechanics?
And hunters are pretty fine since the pet buff...
Tue 10 Sep 2019 4:46 PM by iamsaitam
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Sep 2019 3:37 PM
iamsaitam wrote: ↑
Tue 10 Sep 2019 3:12 PM
Can someone explain the reason for:

"Critical Shot only checks for targets engaged in melee. Critical shot provide enemy target with 15 seconds of immunity critical shots."

Can you crit someone casting? If so, then I get the second part. But what about stealther vs stealther mechanics? I guess scouts are no match against other stealthers till they got 3 RR in between. Perhaps excluding hunters, those guys got the end of the stick since day one x)

Lots of things about critshots got changed (for example you couldn'T critshot a target that was sprinting...with everyone always sprinting here that would have been quite sad for archers), and as downside they made it so you cannot use critshot over and over again on the same target.


I have no idea what you are on to in the second half though? Why would it make sense when you can critshot someone casting? And how is it different in stealth VS stealth mechanics?
And hunters are pretty fine since the pet buff...

Nevermind the second part, was a bit outdated on what consists a valid crit shot target. The spriting part makes sense.
Wed 18 Sep 2019 5:22 AM by Daoc_1
Man this is a really GREAT Post ! ! !
I am currently leveling an Inconnu Scout now at level 25 and am perfectly fine being Bow/Stealth specced. I have this philosophy on this whole thing....
Why not use the class the way its originally made for.. "Scouting" ??? I mean, I know people on here will not agree but this is how " I PLAY" my scout...
I scout out for the other BG's, Zergs, 8mans, Small mans.. or even the occasional solo toon.
I also say that "IF" they get up on me, i didnt do my job.
If ya want a "melee Stealther" go Infi/Mini
If ya want a "Scout" play the toon like its ment to be played...

Just my thoughts...

My added side of this is.. if we do not get buffs, pets, DW ... atleast make it to where we can climb walls hahahhaa ( I know TO OPD THEN) haha
Wed 18 Sep 2019 8:52 AM by gotwqqd
Daoc_1 wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 5:22 AM
Man this is a really GREAT Post ! ! !
I am currently leveling an Inconnu Scout now at level 25 and am perfectly fine being Bow/Stealth specced. I have this philosophy on this whole thing....
Why not use the class the way its originally made for.. "Scouting" ??? I mean, I know people on here will not agree but this is how " I PLAY" my scout...
I scout out for the other BG's, Zergs, 8mans, Small mans.. or even the occasional solo toon.
I also say that "IF" they get up on me, i didnt do my job.
If ya want a "melee Stealther" go Infi/Mini
If ya want a "Scout" play the toon like its ment to be played...

Just my thoughts...

My added side of this is.. if we do not get buffs, pets, DW ... atleast make it to where we can climb walls hahahhaa ( I know TO OPD THEN) haha
You really can’t know the problems with a pve spec at that low level

BTW don’t bother with stealth till after 45ish
Wed 18 Sep 2019 12:51 PM by Makrist
Daoc_1 wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 5:22 AM
Man this is a really GREAT Post ! ! !
I am currently leveling an Inconnu Scout now at level 25 and am perfectly fine being Bow/Stealth specced. I have this philosophy on this whole thing....
Why not use the class the way its originally made for.. "Scouting" ??? I mean, I know people on here will not agree but this is how " I PLAY" my scout...
I scout out for the other BG's, Zergs, 8mans, Small mans.. or even the occasional solo toon.
I also say that "IF" they get up on me, i didnt do my job.
If ya want a "melee Stealther" go Infi/Mini
If ya want a "Scout" play the toon like its ment to be played...

Just my thoughts...

My added side of this is.. if we do not get buffs, pets, DW ... atleast make it to where we can climb walls hahahhaa ( I know TO OPD THEN) haha

I dont care how you play your toon to be honest. You can level him to 50, template him, and then spend the rest of your time in Mithra for all i care. There are a few things you should know:

Assassins will uncover you. Period. If you are able to Scout targets worth scouting you will be close enough to get taken out. 50 stealth wont save you.

Archers will likely uncover you as often as assassins. 50 stealth wont save you.

If a visible runs over the top of you during a detection pulse they will see you. You may or may not get uncovered, but you are rolling the dice by sticking around to let them try.

Bow damage is respectable, but it scales horribly after 35 bow. The difference between 35 and 50 spec is approximately 25 damage on rapidfire shots.

Slam is a one trick pony. 85% of the fights it gets purged. Numb has a different style animation. Most dont fall for the "purge numb trick slam later". Even if they do 10 seconds after numb you will likely be so far behind it wont matter. I have killed literally 2 characters with the slam shoot trick. Every other one has been purged or added on by another. I dont even use it anymore.

Casters are 50/50. If they are MoC skilled and can use /face its likely over. If they have a few RR and know how to quickly /face its likely over. Dumb ones are free RP, smart ones are death, the ones in the middle can go either way depending on the caster class.

If it has a shield you are likely dead.

If it is a light melee class with a couple toys (IP, etc) you are also likely dead.

Healers, shaman, druids, and bards will CC you instant heal themselves and just run away in general. Out of those bards are stupid hard to kill without help due to interrupts. Healers usually run. Druids usually run, shaman are 50/50 in my experience. About half stay and fight. As long as they dont MoC you should be fine.
Wed 18 Sep 2019 8:00 PM by Cadebrennus
Open up a version of MoC for Archery. That way the ones who want to really really specialize in Archery can spend RAs to actually be effective. There's no reason MoC should be Caster only.
Wed 18 Sep 2019 10:41 PM by cuuchulain79
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 8:00 PM
Open up a version of MoC for Archery. That way the ones who want to really really specialize in Archery can spend RAs to actually be effective. There's no reason MoC should be Caster only.

There have been some funny/stupid posts on Phoenix...

This one could be a #1 contender.
Thu 19 Sep 2019 7:30 AM by Cadebrennus
cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 10:41 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 8:00 PM
Open up a version of MoC for Archery. That way the ones who want to really really specialize in Archery can spend RAs to actually be effective. There's no reason MoC should be Caster only.

There have been some funny/stupid posts on Phoenix...

This one could be a #1 contender.

Now that's a dumb post. I guess you need to nominate yourself.

There's no reason why an Archer that is 100% invested in their main spec line shouldn't have a chance to be uninterrupted for a short time like a Caster can.
Thu 19 Sep 2019 8:19 AM by Elvis
An Archer that is specing 50 bow is limiting himself to be only good on range. As an archer you have the option to spec melee too. Casters do Not have that choice. Therefore giving moc to archers would be a bad choice.

You want to be good to Solid on range and in Close Combat? Spec hybrid. It's that easy. Spec full archer and live with your own choice to suck in Close combat situations.


Scouts need help, but only with their melee. Maybe Put Them on a higher Dam table. More ws, more successful Hits, more damage.
Thu 19 Sep 2019 8:45 AM by Sepplord
while i think i agree with that reasoning (although it falls flat when you look at PBAE-casters), giving archers MOC isn't really a compeltely out of this world idea, to at least contemplate and discuss...

Calling it the #1 stupid posts on this forum goes a bit far, imo it's not even close to the top10 in this thread
Thu 19 Sep 2019 9:22 AM by Elvis
Casters cannot use any casts without moc when attacked in melee ( yes ok qc, i know).

Archers are hybrid classes that can spec Melle and Range.
If you give archers Access to moc, you would have to reduce the damage greatly making the Ra useless again for the high costs.
Thu 19 Sep 2019 9:37 AM by Sepplord
Elvis wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 9:22 AM
Casters cannot use any casts without moc when attacked in melee ( yes ok qc, i know).

Archers are hybrid classes that can spec Melle and Range.
If you give archers Access to moc, you would have to reduce the damage greatly making the Ra useless again for the high costs.

that doesn't make sense to me. Why would there not be a possible damage reduction where it would be worth but not OP? At which %-decrease would it suddenly flip from totally OP to completely useless?
And casters do much more damage than archers, so why is MOC fine there and not them? (purely looking at the dmg/dmgreduction ratio that suddenly is problematic on archers)
Thu 19 Sep 2019 11:04 AM by Elvis
Moc is fine on casters, because they have No other Options to Cast when forced into melee Combat or perma rupt. , Hunter and Ranger have Skill lines for melee to spec. Casters do Not have that possibility.

What I could Imagine ist the old sureshot at 50 bow spec. Unuseable in melee but cannot be interrupted in range (while doing 50% damage).
Thu 19 Sep 2019 12:38 PM by Cadebrennus
Elvis wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 9:22 AM
Casters cannot use any casts without moc when attacked in melee ( yes ok qc, i know).

Archers are hybrid classes that can spec Melle and Range.
If you give archers Access to moc, you would have to reduce the damage greatly making the Ra useless again for the high costs.

While most Scouts shoot themselves in the foot by neglecting melee (yes that is their fault, not the fault of game balance), they should have another option to make their main class spec line more useful. Yes, they can spec melee, and while a Scout's mainhand does hit as hard as a Ranger's and a Hunter's mainhand (people forget that part) they do lack an option to boost their melee like Rangers (damage added from offhand) or Hunters (damage added from dog and even more from 2h). It's true that they do have a significant defensive boost that Hunters and Rangers don't get, as well as a better fight control mechanism (anytime stun), so let's not ignore that either. An Archer version of MoC would satisfy all three realms IMO without being unbalanced and reward players in all three realms who wish to be more focused on the Archers main line...... Archery. It would be, in particular, a greater boost to Scouts who tend to focus more on Archery than the other two Archer classes.
Thu 19 Sep 2019 6:50 PM by Elvis
Well, I played a archer class since day one, Hunters and Rangers in all kind of speces.

In my opinion, if you want to strenthen Scouts, than improve their melee. If you want to improve archery, give more tools for spec above 35 (Longshot, Sureshot, whatever) and some kind of Ability that allows the archer to kite, like old rr5 Entwining snakes (Hunter) or shield trip (Scout). Something to easily get out of melee combat and restart the fight from range. I could also image a melee bow style similar to frozen comet given at 50 bow spec.

But moc? I really dislike that idea. It will either be too weak for the ra points invested, or too strong vs. the average player. And to be honest, every skilled player will run through each time you use moc and prevent most of the damage incoming by being out of sight.
Thu 19 Sep 2019 7:31 PM by Cadebrennus
Elvis wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 6:50 PM
Well, I played a archer class since day one, Hunters and Rangers in all kind of speces.

In my opinion, if you want to strenthen Scouts, than improve their melee. If you want to improve archery, give more tools for spec above 35 (Longshot, Sureshot, whatever) and some kind of Ability that allows the archer to kite, like old rr5 Entwining snakes (Hunter) or shield trip (Scout). Something to easily get out of melee combat and restart the fight from range. I could also image a melee bow style similar to frozen comet given at 50 bow spec.

But moc? I really dislike that idea. It will either be too weak for the ra points invested, or too strong vs. the average player. And to be honest, every skilled player will run through each time you use moc and prevent most of the damage incoming by being out of sight.

I like the melee bow style idea, but if you improved Scout's melee ability you would need to add speccable Shield to Hunters and Rangers in the interest of balance.
Thu 19 Sep 2019 10:24 PM by gotwqqd
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 7:31 PM
Elvis wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 6:50 PM
Well, I played a archer class since day one, Hunters and Rangers in all kind of speces.

In my opinion, if you want to strenthen Scouts, than improve their melee. If you want to improve archery, give more tools for spec above 35 (Longshot, Sureshot, whatever) and some kind of Ability that allows the archer to kite, like old rr5 Entwining snakes (Hunter) or shield trip (Scout). Something to easily get out of melee combat and restart the fight from range. I could also image a melee bow style similar to frozen comet given at 50 bow spec.

But moc? I really dislike that idea. It will either be too weak for the ra points invested, or too strong vs. the average player. And to be honest, every skilled player will run through each time you use moc and prevent most of the damage incoming by being out of sight.

I like the melee bow style idea, but if you improved Scout's melee ability you would need to add speccable Shield to Hunters and Rangers in the interest of balance.

Haha
Thu 19 Sep 2019 11:34 PM by Makrist
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 7:31 PM
Elvis wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 6:50 PM
Well, I played a archer class since day one, Hunters and Rangers in all kind of speces.

In my opinion, if you want to strenthen Scouts, than improve their melee. If you want to improve archery, give more tools for spec above 35 (Longshot, Sureshot, whatever) and some kind of Ability that allows the archer to kite, like old rr5 Entwining snakes (Hunter) or shield trip (Scout). Something to easily get out of melee combat and restart the fight from range. I could also image a melee bow style similar to frozen comet given at 50 bow spec.

But moc? I really dislike that idea. It will either be too weak for the ra points invested, or too strong vs. the average player. And to be honest, every skilled player will run through each time you use moc and prevent most of the damage incoming by being out of sight.

I like the melee bow style idea, but if you improved Scout's melee ability you would need to add speccable Shield to Hunters and Rangers in the interest of balance.

Do you know what happens when a RR5 Scout gets the jump on a RR10 Healer in open field? A fight that should belong to the scout is hopeless as the Healer pots, charge heals, instas, and group instas as he sprints away. Without a speed boost i have no way to close and wave as he saunters off. DA and spec buff is only two utility tools hunters and rangers have access to that scouts dont. The truth is there is a lot of power in those self buff spec line that are simply not found in any way on the scout. I cant purge a DA or blue pet that hits me for 78 per round, and even with a 34% block rate i cant stand toe to toe with a 2hand Hunter or ranger's damage. I dont want to be those classes. I want something unique and impactful that belongs to me as a scout. Shield is unique, but outside of engage its rarely impactful until much much later in a Scouts career.

My question is why is it acceptable that the scout is so hamstringed until much later in their careers when compared to other classes?
Fri 20 Sep 2019 7:02 AM by Sepplord
guard is again being conveniently forgotten
scouts have a pure group-utility that they throw away when soloing...that's fine to do, but it's weird to complain about having nothing special, after ignoring your special tool
Fri 20 Sep 2019 7:34 AM by inoeth
Makrist wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 11:34 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 7:31 PM
Elvis wrote: ↑
Thu 19 Sep 2019 6:50 PM
Well, I played a archer class since day one, Hunters and Rangers in all kind of speces.

In my opinion, if you want to strenthen Scouts, than improve their melee. If you want to improve archery, give more tools for spec above 35 (Longshot, Sureshot, whatever) and some kind of Ability that allows the archer to kite, like old rr5 Entwining snakes (Hunter) or shield trip (Scout). Something to easily get out of melee combat and restart the fight from range. I could also image a melee bow style similar to frozen comet given at 50 bow spec.

But moc? I really dislike that idea. It will either be too weak for the ra points invested, or too strong vs. the average player. And to be honest, every skilled player will run through each time you use moc and prevent most of the damage incoming by being out of sight.

I like the melee bow style idea, but if you improved Scout's melee ability you would need to add speccable Shield to Hunters and Rangers in the interest of balance.

Do you know what happens when a RR5 Scout gets the jump on a RR10 Healer in open field? A fight that should belong to the scout is hopeless as the Healer pots, charge heals, instas, and group instas as he sprints away. Without a speed boost i have no way to close and wave as he saunters off. DA and spec buff is only two utility tools hunters and rangers have access to that scouts dont. The truth is there is a lot of power in those self buff spec line that are simply not found in any way on the scout. I cant purge a DA or blue pet that hits me for 78 per round, and even with a 34% block rate i cant stand toe to toe with a 2hand Hunter or ranger's damage. I dont want to be those classes. I want something unique and impactful that belongs to me as a scout. Shield is unique, but outside of engage its rarely impactful until much much later in a Scouts career.

My question is why is it acceptable that the scout is so hamstringed until much later in their careers when compared to other classes?

because scout is for experienced players, not for noobs.
play infi or necro if you want easymode
Fri 20 Sep 2019 4:26 PM by Makrist
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 20 Sep 2019 7:02 AM
guard is again being conveniently forgotten
scouts have a pure group-utility that they throw away when soloing...that's fine to do, but it's weird to complain about having nothing special, after ignoring your special tool

My experience with guard to date:

Stealth duo/group - Close enough to use it close enough to get eaten. Without investing significant RA points into survivability tools like IP and purge scouts are simply outclassed. Period. Again, anyone post RR6 has a better life im just not sure why a scouts impact up to that point has to be so negligible. Adding a stealth minstrel or another infiltrator at that point is often more powerful either because of the added utility or massively reduced TTK.

Group visible - I never understood the argument that my "special tool" as a scout was to function as a shield tank. I have said it before that scouts are underappreciated for their benefit to visible groups. Arrows interrupt healers at 1.5 seconds better than casters can...i dont have spell animations to catch the eye and give away my position. This is something shared by all archers. As a guard class in visible groups im a speed bump at best. Feels weird to brag that my special skill is to slow down the light and shield tanks by four seconds before face planting. This is of course assuming you are not laughed at when LFG for 8man. In a zerg of 70 who cares about individual contribution at that point.
Fri 20 Sep 2019 8:54 PM by Cadebrennus
Makrist wrote: ↑
Fri 20 Sep 2019 4:26 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 20 Sep 2019 7:02 AM
guard is again being conveniently forgotten
scouts have a pure group-utility that they throw away when soloing...that's fine to do, but it's weird to complain about having nothing special, after ignoring your special tool

My experience with guard to date:

Stealth duo/group - Close enough to use it close enough to get eaten. Without investing significant RA points into survivability tools like IP and purge scouts are simply outclassed. Period. Again, anyone post RR6 has a better life im just not sure why a scouts impact up to that point has to be so negligible. Adding a stealth minstrel or another infiltrator at that point is often more powerful either because of the added utility or massively reduced TTK.

Group visible - I never understood the argument that my "special tool" as a scout was to function as a shield tank. I have said it before that scouts are underappreciated for their benefit to visible groups. Arrows interrupt healers at 1.5 seconds better than casters can...i dont have spell animations to catch the eye and give away my position. This is something shared by all archers. As a guard class in visible groups im a speed bump at best. Feels weird to brag that my special skill is to slow down the light and shield tanks by four seconds before face planting. This is of course assuming you are not laughed at when LFG for 8man. In a zerg of 70 who cares about individual contribution at that point.

You can engage a target that you haven't dealt damage to recently.

On Live, my Ranger's best duo buddy was a Warden with Shield spec, and that Guard ability that you're so flippant about is one of the tools that made us unkillable. Yes yes, I know Wardens have heals and PBT, but we recognized that it was the Shield that was our strength.

Learn it. Love it. Use it.

If you're not using all of your tools then you're only playing a portion of your class. That being said I'm glad to see that someone else recognizes the value in an interrupting Archer. It's powerful in the right hands and when matched with good reflexes + solid target acquisition.
Fri 20 Sep 2019 11:22 PM by Makrist
Its true i probably wouldnt be so flippant if i had scale equivalent armor, PBT, heals, potentially cure disease/poison, base buffs, etc... Not to mention i believe they increased the wardens damage table when they gave them shield, but either way. One of the tools making you unkillable was shield, but clearly not the only. The rest are completely outside this discussion so moving on.

I dont ignore the utility it can provide under the right circumstances. I have run 42 shield, i have run 31 shield/50 weapon, and multiple other specs involving varying amounts of shield spec and RA choices (with/without MoB). The difference in solo fights is virtually zero. Understanding the game isnt balanced around solo performance i view that as frustrating not class defining.

I wouldnt know in an 8man for obvious reasons...so moving on.

In a zerg ...well...inconsequential to be honest. Slamming guards only gets you so far, and my time is much more valuable as an interrupter for support enemies. I agree with you on this, but it is also not remotely class defining, and shield has little impact in these battles either for me or others.

Which brings us to duo/Stealth groups. Here it gets interesting. I can run 39 slash and 42 shield and tactically force a purge, but this is primarily all 42 shield provides in my experience. My block rate is slightly higher percentage from 31, but ive only ever one a fight that close once at RR3 vs a SB. This begs the question of whether guarding a realmmate is better or rapidfire 130 to 150 damage shots works better in the long run. Ive never died in a winnable fight because i engaged at range. Ive died plenty trying to guard a realm mate whether or not he ultimately won. Im a speed bump. My experience is any assassin over RR6 will switch targets and eat me in guard mode. With switch macros and poisons in their current state purge is worthless unless stunned. Or worse i need to purge before my heal click/pot use to drop disease. i simply cannot tolerate 220+ damage per round before crits. Numb has a different animation, and most dont purge it. Slam buys me 2 seconds at most before the purge.

I had better luck with 31 shield 50 slash. My damage per round increases by anywhere from 10 to 30 depending on delay weapon with amy slash. Meanwhile with Dual Wielding defense penetration and DA i take that much damage in return just from a Rangers buff line, and twice that damage from a hunter pet, and they dont need to spec 50 weapon to get it. Hunters hit me for anytime spear styles at 190 per round without crits, and it isnt significantly slow on the swing speed.

Hunters had access to chain at one time. Maybe that is the answer. I dont know, but shield alone at this point is just a talking point in my opinion. Scouts clamor for change and its the go to rebuttal, but in reality the impact is pretty insignificant compared to other options available.
Sat 21 Sep 2019 6:29 AM by Cadebrennus
Makrist wrote: ↑
Fri 20 Sep 2019 11:22 PM
Its true i probably wouldnt be so flippant if i had scale equivalent armor, PBT, heals, potentially cure disease/poison, base buffs, etc... Not to mention i believe they increased the wardens damage table when they gave them shield, but either way. One of the tools making you unkillable was shield, but clearly not the only. The rest are completely outside this discussion so moving on.

I dont ignore the utility it can provide under the right circumstances. I have run 42 shield, i have run 31 shield/50 weapon, and multiple other specs involving varying amounts of shield spec and RA choices (with/without MoB). The difference in solo fights is virtually zero. Understanding the game isnt balanced around solo performance i view that as frustrating not class defining.

I wouldnt know in an 8man for obvious reasons...so moving on.

In a zerg ...well...inconsequential to be honest. Slamming guards only gets you so far, and my time is much more valuable as an interrupter for support enemies. I agree with you on this, but it is also not remotely class defining, and shield has little impact in these battles either for me or others.

Which brings us to duo/Stealth groups. Here it gets interesting. I can run 39 slash and 42 shield and tactically force a purge, but this is primarily all 42 shield provides in my experience. My block rate is slightly higher percentage from 31, but ive only ever one a fight that close once at RR3 vs a SB. This begs the question of whether guarding a realmmate is better or rapidfire 130 to 150 damage shots works better in the long run. Ive never died in a winnable fight because i engaged at range. Ive died plenty trying to guard a realm mate whether or not he ultimately won. Im a speed bump. My experience is any assassin over RR6 will switch targets and eat me in guard mode. With switch macros and poisons in their current state purge is worthless unless stunned. Or worse i need to purge before my heal click/pot use to drop disease. i simply cannot tolerate 220+ damage per round before crits. Numb has a different animation, and most dont purge it. Slam buys me 2 seconds at most before the purge.

I had better luck with 31 shield 50 slash. My damage per round increases by anywhere from 10 to 30 depending on delay weapon with amy slash. Meanwhile with Dual Wielding defense penetration and DA i take that much damage in return just from a Rangers buff line, and twice that damage from a hunter pet, and they dont need to spec 50 weapon to get it. Hunters hit me for anytime spear styles at 190 per round without crits, and it isnt significantly slow on the swing speed.

Hunters had access to chain at one time. Maybe that is the answer. I dont know, but shield alone at this point is just a talking point in my opinion. Scouts clamor for change and its the go to rebuttal, but in reality the impact is pretty insignificant compared to other options available.

Most of the time he didn't even have to run PBT or even heal (his heal spec was abysmally low at one point.) The dude was a Battle Warden and was primarily melee, like me. I knew you were going to bring up all of the stuff we didn't even have to use like 90% of the time. I will admit, TWF was pretty awesome though. Most of the time all he had to run as the DA chant, and his 42 Shield + self haste + me did the rest of the work. Learn to use positioning in combat better, and maybe, just maybe, your Shield will come in handier than just a tool for a Slambot. Learn to work with your group partners (Visi or Stealth), make them learn to work with you.

I wouldn't be opposed to chain on a Scout, after all, Alb is supposed to be a defensive realm. Just take it away from Minstrels (put them in leather like Infils) and I think balance will be achieved.
Sat 21 Sep 2019 4:15 PM by gotwqqd
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 21 Sep 2019 6:29 AM
Makrist wrote: ↑
Fri 20 Sep 2019 11:22 PM
Its true i probably wouldnt be so flippant if i had scale equivalent armor, PBT, heals, potentially cure disease/poison, base buffs, etc... Not to mention i believe they increased the wardens damage table when they gave them shield, but either way. One of the tools making you unkillable was shield, but clearly not the only. The rest are completely outside this discussion so moving on.

I dont ignore the utility it can provide under the right circumstances. I have run 42 shield, i have run 31 shield/50 weapon, and multiple other specs involving varying amounts of shield spec and RA choices (with/without MoB). The difference in solo fights is virtually zero. Understanding the game isnt balanced around solo performance i view that as frustrating not class defining.

I wouldnt know in an 8man for obvious reasons...so moving on.

In a zerg ...well...inconsequential to be honest. Slamming guards only gets you so far, and my time is much more valuable as an interrupter for support enemies. I agree with you on this, but it is also not remotely class defining, and shield has little impact in these battles either for me or others.

Which brings us to duo/Stealth groups. Here it gets interesting. I can run 39 slash and 42 shield and tactically force a purge, but this is primarily all 42 shield provides in my experience. My block rate is slightly higher percentage from 31, but ive only ever one a fight that close once at RR3 vs a SB. This begs the question of whether guarding a realmmate is better or rapidfire 130 to 150 damage shots works better in the long run. Ive never died in a winnable fight because i engaged at range. Ive died plenty trying to guard a realm mate whether or not he ultimately won. Im a speed bump. My experience is any assassin over RR6 will switch targets and eat me in guard mode. With switch macros and poisons in their current state purge is worthless unless stunned. Or worse i need to purge before my heal click/pot use to drop disease. i simply cannot tolerate 220+ damage per round before crits. Numb has a different animation, and most dont purge it. Slam buys me 2 seconds at most before the purge.

I had better luck with 31 shield 50 slash. My damage per round increases by anywhere from 10 to 30 depending on delay weapon with amy slash. Meanwhile with Dual Wielding defense penetration and DA i take that much damage in return just from a Rangers buff line, and twice that damage from a hunter pet, and they dont need to spec 50 weapon to get it. Hunters hit me for anytime spear styles at 190 per round without crits, and it isnt significantly slow on the swing speed.

Hunters had access to chain at one time. Maybe that is the answer. I dont know, but shield alone at this point is just a talking point in my opinion. Scouts clamor for change and its the go to rebuttal, but in reality the impact is pretty insignificant compared to other options available.

Most of the time he didn't even have to run PBT or even heal (his heal spec was abysmally low at one point.) The dude was a Battle Warden and was primarily melee, like me. I knew you were going to bring up all of the stuff we didn't even have to use like 90% of the time. I will admit, TWF was pretty awesome though. Most of the time all he had to run as the DA chant, and his 42 Shield + self haste + me did the rest of the work. Learn to use positioning in combat better, and maybe, just maybe, your Shield will come in handier than just a tool for a Slambot. Learn to work with your group partners (Visi or Stealth), make them learn to work with you.

I wouldn't be opposed to chain on a Scout, after all, Alb is supposed to be a defensive realm. Just take it away from Minstrels (put them in leather like Infils) and I think balance will be achieved.
So what are the % numbers for having chain? Besides the bonus they will get for weapon type on some frequent enemies?
Sat 21 Sep 2019 5:19 PM by Makrist
Its a difference of 8 ABS, which is slightly lower (1 lower) than necro ABS buff which is 9. I honestly dont know what the "Best" option would be, and im not looking to win every engagement. It would be nice to be in the running without having to rely on 10-15 min RA timers just to compete. Maybe allowing Scouts access to 2Hand spec line would help offer choices. It would require us to invest more than Mids to maximize its damage, and it would offer an opportunity to increase melee damage at the cost of defense.

I dont have all the answers. It might help if there were something in archery to make scouts unique. I dont believe it has to be a melee parity solution with other archers. In my opinion shield is simply not as impactful as the other realms "flavor" and there is a slight adjustment up to scouts that is justified.
Sat 21 Sep 2019 6:34 PM by Cadebrennus
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 21 Sep 2019 4:15 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 21 Sep 2019 6:29 AM
Makrist wrote: ↑
Fri 20 Sep 2019 11:22 PM
Its true i probably wouldnt be so flippant if i had scale equivalent armor, PBT, heals, potentially cure disease/poison, base buffs, etc... Not to mention i believe they increased the wardens damage table when they gave them shield, but either way. One of the tools making you unkillable was shield, but clearly not the only. The rest are completely outside this discussion so moving on.

I dont ignore the utility it can provide under the right circumstances. I have run 42 shield, i have run 31 shield/50 weapon, and multiple other specs involving varying amounts of shield spec and RA choices (with/without MoB). The difference in solo fights is virtually zero. Understanding the game isnt balanced around solo performance i view that as frustrating not class defining.

I wouldnt know in an 8man for obvious reasons...so moving on.

In a zerg ...well...inconsequential to be honest. Slamming guards only gets you so far, and my time is much more valuable as an interrupter for support enemies. I agree with you on this, but it is also not remotely class defining, and shield has little impact in these battles either for me or others.

Which brings us to duo/Stealth groups. Here it gets interesting. I can run 39 slash and 42 shield and tactically force a purge, but this is primarily all 42 shield provides in my experience. My block rate is slightly higher percentage from 31, but ive only ever one a fight that close once at RR3 vs a SB. This begs the question of whether guarding a realmmate is better or rapidfire 130 to 150 damage shots works better in the long run. Ive never died in a winnable fight because i engaged at range. Ive died plenty trying to guard a realm mate whether or not he ultimately won. Im a speed bump. My experience is any assassin over RR6 will switch targets and eat me in guard mode. With switch macros and poisons in their current state purge is worthless unless stunned. Or worse i need to purge before my heal click/pot use to drop disease. i simply cannot tolerate 220+ damage per round before crits. Numb has a different animation, and most dont purge it. Slam buys me 2 seconds at most before the purge.

I had better luck with 31 shield 50 slash. My damage per round increases by anywhere from 10 to 30 depending on delay weapon with amy slash. Meanwhile with Dual Wielding defense penetration and DA i take that much damage in return just from a Rangers buff line, and twice that damage from a hunter pet, and they dont need to spec 50 weapon to get it. Hunters hit me for anytime spear styles at 190 per round without crits, and it isnt significantly slow on the swing speed.

Hunters had access to chain at one time. Maybe that is the answer. I dont know, but shield alone at this point is just a talking point in my opinion. Scouts clamor for change and its the go to rebuttal, but in reality the impact is pretty insignificant compared to other options available.

Most of the time he didn't even have to run PBT or even heal (his heal spec was abysmally low at one point.) The dude was a Battle Warden and was primarily melee, like me. I knew you were going to bring up all of the stuff we didn't even have to use like 90% of the time. I will admit, TWF was pretty awesome though. Most of the time all he had to run as the DA chant, and his 42 Shield + self haste + me did the rest of the work. Learn to use positioning in combat better, and maybe, just maybe, your Shield will come in handier than just a tool for a Slambot. Learn to work with your group partners (Visi or Stealth), make them learn to work with you.

I wouldn't be opposed to chain on a Scout, after all, Alb is supposed to be a defensive realm. Just take it away from Minstrels (put them in leather like Infils) and I think balance will be achieved.
So what are the % numbers for having chain? Besides the bonus they will get for weapon type on some frequent enemies?

The ABS numbers are pretty significant, but I don't have them right in front of me right now. What I can tell you from an experience standpoint is that as a Blades Ranger, attacking Alb (every single one of them neutral to Slash), Leather and Studded Leather wearing Rogues (aka Infils and Scouts) dropped a lot faster than a Minstrel (same base class, same HP's, same available races except Highlander on Infil.) Minstrels took just too damn long to kill, allowing them to wreak more havoc while having better armor than a Bard and having the same Armor as a Warrior and a Merc.

Chain just makes more sense for a Scout, since historically Archers in the isles (excepting Ireland) were part of the larger army or skirmishing units. Game-wise it improves their lasting power in a fight, and fits thematically with Albion.
Fri 27 Sep 2019 12:31 PM by Ulio ah ah
currently I have tried two specs:

44 thrust, 35 longbow, 36 shield

And

27 thrust, 45 longbow, 42 shield.

now I will try 50 thrusts, 35 longbows, 29 shields.

because currently shield is really 100% useless, and to think that it should be our strong point. I think you need an AF buff as hunter and ranger.
Fri 27 Sep 2019 12:48 PM by Cadebrennus
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 12:31 PM
currently I have tried two specs:

44 thrust, 35 longbow, 36 shield

And

27 thrust, 45 longbow, 42 shield.

now I will try 50 thrusts, 35 longbows, 29 shields.

because currently shield is really 100% useless, and to think that it should be our strong point. I think you need an AF buff as hunter and ranger.

Why do you say Shield is 100% useless? I have my shield out approximately 33% of the time on my Merc
Fri 27 Sep 2019 1:08 PM by jackatom74
Not sure why everyone wants high thrust. With scout if you have to melee your two choices are run or sit. Scouts are not rangers.
Fri 27 Sep 2019 1:33 PM by Ulio ah ah
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 12:48 PM
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 12:31 PM
currently I have tried two specs:

44 thrust, 35 longbow, 36 shield

And

27 thrust, 45 longbow, 42 shield.

now I will try 50 thrusts, 35 longbows, 29 shields.

because currently shield is really 100% useless, and to think that it should be our strong point. I think you need an AF buff as hunter and ranger.

Why do you say Shield is 100% useless? I have my shield out approximately 33% of the time on my Merc

because against the other hidden blocks very little and in my opinion it is not worth investing in points.
Fri 27 Sep 2019 2:00 PM by Ulio ah ah
jackatom74 wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 1:08 PM
Not sure why everyone wants high thrust. With scout if you have to melee your two choices are run or sit. Scouts are not rangers.

the problem is running, almost nobody lets you.
Fri 27 Sep 2019 6:10 PM by Cadebrennus
If Slam is so useless, then why not spec 23 or 35 Shield? You still get good positionals, and Numb for when you need to break up someone's attack cycle. If you're good enough you can even get in a side snare with your weapon inside of a 2 second stun. I do it on my Merc all the time. That would free up more points for weapon/bow.
Fri 27 Sep 2019 11:35 PM by insanesanity
Complete dumpster fire of a class, moving on...
Sat 28 Sep 2019 2:04 AM by Makrist
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 6:10 PM
If Slam is so useless, then why not spec 23 or 35 Shield? You still get good positionals, and Numb for when you need to break up someone's attack cycle. If you're good enough you can even get in a side snare with your weapon inside of a 2 second stun. I do it on my Merc all the time. That would free up more points for weapon/bow.

I have made my opinion known as far as the Scout is concerned overall. As for shield my favored spec of all is 31 for the off block 7 second stun. I have toyed with 50 slash and 45 Archery to coincide with the 31 shield. I believe overall its the sweet spot simply because i think 42 shield is a skill point sink with diminishing returns as you get higher realm rank. What i mean by that is as your RA skills develop anything higher than you will purge it so its wasted points, and anything lower than you manageable can be dealt with in 7 seconds and 9 isnt a necessity.

With that said your constant comparison of how valuable a shield is because of your merc is a bit much. You are taking a class with DW, a high damage table, and chain and talking about how useful shield is and how that should somehow transfer to an analysis of a scout. For you its a cool tool, but for a scout its supposed to be our saving grace. The real question is without it how deadly is your merc, and im pretty sure that answer is still very. Its quite frankly a pretty poor comparison to bring into the conversation. You get purged you can still wreck shop. I get purged i hit like a pool noodle, and my armor based damage mitigation is significantly lower than yours so i cant soak it up as well either. Of course there is also that nifty defense penetration bonus dw classes get.
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:00 AM by Cadebrennus
Makrist wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 2:04 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 6:10 PM
If Slam is so useless, then why not spec 23 or 35 Shield? You still get good positionals, and Numb for when you need to break up someone's attack cycle. If you're good enough you can even get in a side snare with your weapon inside of a 2 second stun. I do it on my Merc all the time. That would free up more points for weapon/bow.

I have made my opinion known as far as the Scout is concerned overall. As for shield my favored spec of all is 31 for the off block 7 second stun. I have toyed with 50 slash and 45 Archery to coincide with the 31 shield. I believe overall its the sweet spot simply because i think 42 shield is a skill point sink with diminishing returns as you get higher realm rank. What i mean by that is as your RA skills develop anything higher than you will purge it so its wasted points, and anything lower than you manageable can be dealt with in 7 seconds and 9 isnt a necessity.

With that said your constant comparison of how valuable a shield is because of your merc is a bit much. You are taking a class with DW, a high damage table, and chain and talking about how useful shield is and how that should somehow transfer to an analysis of a scout. For you its a cool tool, but for a scout its supposed to be our saving grace. The real question is without it how deadly is your merc, and im pretty sure that answer is still very. Its quite frankly a pretty poor comparison to bring into the conversation. You get purged you can still wreck shop. I get purged i hit like a pool noodle, and my armor based damage mitigation is significantly lower than yours so i cant soak it up as well either. Of course there is also that nifty defense penetration bonus dw classes get.

I agree with your assessment based on what you know, and also your perception of playstyles. The biggest difference is not the WS table, but the playstyles. Nearly all Stealther players (Scouts included) play solo or 2-3man stealth, which is still a setup with no support classes. I play my Merc almost exclusively in some sort of well-rounded group. Here's where it gets interesting. I also play my Ranger like a Merc. Not in that he's a dual wielding class, but in that I have usually played in some sort of well rounded group, whether it's smallman, 8man, or zerg. I would typically only solo if I had less than an hour to play. I just have more fun in group play.

Back to the Shield. The way I use the Shield on the Merc isn't to dominate someone 1v1. I use it as a utility to better serve my group. I would typically use the positional styles or even just Numb to stop someone from running, followed up with a snare style. I didn't want to be the one doing 100% of the damage to the target. I was almost always trying to stop runners (or target-hop casters to interrupt multiple casters) within 1500 units of my casters so that my casters could do the work of nuking someone down. They can drop a target much faster than I could. I would do the same on the Ranger, whether it was me doing ranged interrupts (via bow) or melee interrupts and melee CC (via styles). I would always comment on how much better a Scout could be at that role because of the Shield, with the added benefit of being able to Guard a group Caster.

If you're only focusing on 1v1 then you're missing a huge portion of the game as well as the untapped potential of a class.
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:56 AM by Makrist
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:00 AM
Makrist wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 2:04 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 6:10 PM
If Slam is so useless, then why not spec 23 or 35 Shield? You still get good positionals, and Numb for when you need to break up someone's attack cycle. If you're good enough you can even get in a side snare with your weapon inside of a 2 second stun. I do it on my Merc all the time. That would free up more points for weapon/bow.

I have made my opinion known as far as the Scout is concerned overall. As for shield my favored spec of all is 31 for the off block 7 second stun. I have toyed with 50 slash and 45 Archery to coincide with the 31 shield. I believe overall its the sweet spot simply because i think 42 shield is a skill point sink with diminishing returns as you get higher realm rank. What i mean by that is as your RA skills develop anything higher than you will purge it so its wasted points, and anything lower than you manageable can be dealt with in 7 seconds and 9 isnt a necessity.

With that said your constant comparison of how valuable a shield is because of your merc is a bit much. You are taking a class with DW, a high damage table, and chain and talking about how useful shield is and how that should somehow transfer to an analysis of a scout. For you its a cool tool, but for a scout its supposed to be our saving grace. The real question is without it how deadly is your merc, and im pretty sure that answer is still very. Its quite frankly a pretty poor comparison to bring into the conversation. You get purged you can still wreck shop. I get purged i hit like a pool noodle, and my armor based damage mitigation is significantly lower than yours so i cant soak it up as well either. Of course there is also that nifty defense penetration bonus dw classes get.

I agree with your assessment based on what you know, and also your perception of playstyles. The biggest difference is not the WS table, but the playstyles. Nearly all Stealther players (Scouts included) play solo or 2-3man stealth, which is still a setup with no support classes. I play my Merc almost exclusively in some sort of well-rounded group. Here's where it gets interesting. I also play my Ranger like a Merc. Not in that he's a dual wielding class, but in that I have usually played in some sort of well rounded group, whether it's smallman, 8man, or zerg. I would typically only solo if I had less than an hour to play. I just have more fun in group play.

Back to the Shield. The way I use the Shield on the Merc isn't to dominate someone 1v1. I use it as a utility to better serve my group. I would typically use the positional styles or even just Numb to stop someone from running, followed up with a snare style. I didn't want to be the one doing 100% of the damage to the target. I was almost always trying to stop runners (or target-hop casters to interrupt multiple casters) within 1500 units of my casters so that my casters could do the work of nuking someone down. They can drop a target much faster than I could. I would do the same on the Ranger, whether it was me doing ranged interrupts (via bow) or melee interrupts and melee CC (via styles). I would always comment on how much better a Scout could be at that role because of the Shield, with the added benefit of being able to Guard a group Caster.

If you're only focusing on 1v1 then you're missing a huge portion of the game as well as the untapped potential of a class.

I agree there are strengths to the Scout that are misunderstood and underutilized by the majority of the community. The fact is any small man or 8man will run a Merc, Reaver, or even a Paladin over a Scout. Their mitigation is significantly higher, HP pool is larger, damage is either on par or much higher, and their RA choices are more effective to this setting. Outside zerg surfing there is no niche for me to fill that the community at large is willing to allow.

Which brings us back to stealth wars and groups where i am outperformed by every stealth toon out there. Significantly outperformed in melee especially, and often enough as defensive support im a speedbump.

I didnt ask to be locked into a playstyle where im ineffective until i have the ability to RA dump every 10 min. More often than not, and especially with the massive population imbalance, this is what im left with. Last 5 times time i logged in primetime for me Mids had double the number of Albs and Mids combined.
Sat 28 Sep 2019 11:56 AM by Cadebrennus
Makrist wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:56 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:00 AM
Makrist wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 2:04 AM
I have made my opinion known as far as the Scout is concerned overall. As for shield my favored spec of all is 31 for the off block 7 second stun. I have toyed with 50 slash and 45 Archery to coincide with the 31 shield. I believe overall its the sweet spot simply because i think 42 shield is a skill point sink with diminishing returns as you get higher realm rank. What i mean by that is as your RA skills develop anything higher than you will purge it so its wasted points, and anything lower than you manageable can be dealt with in 7 seconds and 9 isnt a necessity.

With that said your constant comparison of how valuable a shield is because of your merc is a bit much. You are taking a class with DW, a high damage table, and chain and talking about how useful shield is and how that should somehow transfer to an analysis of a scout. For you its a cool tool, but for a scout its supposed to be our saving grace. The real question is without it how deadly is your merc, and im pretty sure that answer is still very. Its quite frankly a pretty poor comparison to bring into the conversation. You get purged you can still wreck shop. I get purged i hit like a pool noodle, and my armor based damage mitigation is significantly lower than yours so i cant soak it up as well either. Of course there is also that nifty defense penetration bonus dw classes get.

I agree with your assessment based on what you know, and also your perception of playstyles. The biggest difference is not the WS table, but the playstyles. Nearly all Stealther players (Scouts included) play solo or 2-3man stealth, which is still a setup with no support classes. I play my Merc almost exclusively in some sort of well-rounded group. Here's where it gets interesting. I also play my Ranger like a Merc. Not in that he's a dual wielding class, but in that I have usually played in some sort of well rounded group, whether it's smallman, 8man, or zerg. I would typically only solo if I had less than an hour to play. I just have more fun in group play.

Back to the Shield. The way I use the Shield on the Merc isn't to dominate someone 1v1. I use it as a utility to better serve my group. I would typically use the positional styles or even just Numb to stop someone from running, followed up with a snare style. I didn't want to be the one doing 100% of the damage to the target. I was almost always trying to stop runners (or target-hop casters to interrupt multiple casters) within 1500 units of my casters so that my casters could do the work of nuking someone down. They can drop a target much faster than I could. I would do the same on the Ranger, whether it was me doing ranged interrupts (via bow) or melee interrupts and melee CC (via styles). I would always comment on how much better a Scout could be at that role because of the Shield, with the added benefit of being able to Guard a group Caster.

If you're only focusing on 1v1 then you're missing a huge portion of the game as well as the untapped potential of a class.

I agree there are strengths to the Scout that are misunderstood and underutilized by the majority of the community. The fact is any small man or 8man will run a Merc, Reaver, or even a Paladin over a Scout. Their mitigation is significantly higher, HP pool is larger, damage is either on par or much higher, and their RA choices are more effective to this setting. Outside zerg surfing there is no niche for me to fill that the community at large is willing to allow.

Which brings us back to stealth wars and groups where i am outperformed by every stealth toon out there. Significantly outperformed in melee especially, and often enough as defensive support im a speedbump.

I didnt ask to be locked into a playstyle where im ineffective until i have the ability to RA dump every 10 min. More often than not, and especially with the massive population imbalance, this is what im left with. Last 5 times time i logged in primetime for me Mids had double the number of Albs and Mids combined.

Watch this video and you will see what an Archer can do better than any other class in the game. Btw the video is only 2:30 long, not 14 minutes. I output the video length incorrectly.

Btw on live the "Archer as primary Interrupter, secondary DPS" worked out so well for my guild group on Live that other 8mans started to field Scouts and Hunters just to be able to counter us.

You say Merc, Paladin, etc. are much better, and that's true, but only at certain things. On my Merc, just to interrupt the backfield takes a shit ton of running and time to get to each target. To DPS them it's the same. Archers have a 500+ range advantage (more with height) over Casters, making Archers the go-to if the group is serious about locking down enemy Casters and Healers. On top of that a practiced Archer can lock down 3-4 Casters/Healers if they are very good at target-hopping and timing their shots with Rapid Fire.

Check out the video and you can see exactly what I mean.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY
^
|
|
this video above
.
.
.
Sat 28 Sep 2019 1:59 PM by Ulio ah ah
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 27 Sep 2019 6:10 PM
If Slam is so useless, then why not spec 23 or 35 Shield? You still get good positionals, and Numb for when you need to break up someone's attack cycle. If you're good enough you can even get in a side snare with your weapon inside of a 2 second stun. I do it on my Merc all the time. That would free up more points for weapon/bow.

yes, in fact I have 29 shields 50 thrust and for me it's good, maybe in the future I'll try 50 slash.
Sat 28 Sep 2019 3:20 PM by Makrist
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 11:56 AM
Makrist wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:56 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:00 AM
I agree with your assessment based on what you know, and also your perception of playstyles. The biggest difference is not the WS table, but the playstyles. Nearly all Stealther players (Scouts included) play solo or 2-3man stealth, which is still a setup with no support classes. I play my Merc almost exclusively in some sort of well-rounded group. Here's where it gets interesting. I also play my Ranger like a Merc. Not in that he's a dual wielding class, but in that I have usually played in some sort of well rounded group, whether it's smallman, 8man, or zerg. I would typically only solo if I had less than an hour to play. I just have more fun in group play.

Back to the Shield. The way I use the Shield on the Merc isn't to dominate someone 1v1. I use it as a utility to better serve my group. I would typically use the positional styles or even just Numb to stop someone from running, followed up with a snare style. I didn't want to be the one doing 100% of the damage to the target. I was almost always trying to stop runners (or target-hop casters to interrupt multiple casters) within 1500 units of my casters so that my casters could do the work of nuking someone down. They can drop a target much faster than I could. I would do the same on the Ranger, whether it was me doing ranged interrupts (via bow) or melee interrupts and melee CC (via styles). I would always comment on how much better a Scout could be at that role because of the Shield, with the added benefit of being able to Guard a group Caster.

If you're only focusing on 1v1 then you're missing a huge portion of the game as well as the untapped potential of a class.

I agree there are strengths to the Scout that are misunderstood and underutilized by the majority of the community. The fact is any small man or 8man will run a Merc, Reaver, or even a Paladin over a Scout. Their mitigation is significantly higher, HP pool is larger, damage is either on par or much higher, and their RA choices are more effective to this setting. Outside zerg surfing there is no niche for me to fill that the community at large is willing to allow.

Which brings us back to stealth wars and groups where i am outperformed by every stealth toon out there. Significantly outperformed in melee especially, and often enough as defensive support im a speedbump.

I didnt ask to be locked into a playstyle where im ineffective until i have the ability to RA dump every 10 min. More often than not, and especially with the massive population imbalance, this is what im left with. Last 5 times time i logged in primetime for me Mids had double the number of Albs and Mids combined.

Watch this video and you will see what an Archer can do better than any other class in the game. Btw the video is only 2:30 long, not 14 minutes. I output the video length incorrectly.

Btw on live the "Archer as primary Interrupter, secondary DPS" worked out so well for my guild group on Live that other 8mans started to field Scouts and Hunters just to be able to counter us.

You say Merc, Paladin, etc. are much better, and that's true, but only at certain things. On my Merc, just to interrupt the backfield takes a shit ton of running and time to get to each target. To DPS them it's the same. Archers have a 500+ range advantage (more with height) over Casters, making Archers the go-to if the group is serious about locking down enemy Casters and Healers. On top of that a practiced Archer can lock down 3-4 Casters/Healers if they are very good at target-hopping and timing their shots with Rapid Fire.

Check out the video and you can see exactly what I mean.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY
^
|
|
this video above
.
.
.

You dont have to convince me. I know what you say with regards to the scout group utility is true. The fact is 96% of the community on Phoenix disagrees with you or doesnt care to try. Which again relegates me to playstyles that a scout is highly disadvantaged in, or as a zerg volley bot. As far as melee classes the main point is they are better at the things most players prioritize. This does nothing for the scout. We dont fit well in a debuff caster train, and standard 8mans dont care enough to try. This will not change anytime soon.
Sat 28 Sep 2019 6:49 PM by Cadebrennus
Makrist wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 3:20 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 11:56 AM
Makrist wrote: ↑
Sat 28 Sep 2019 5:56 AM
I agree there are strengths to the Scout that are misunderstood and underutilized by the majority of the community. The fact is any small man or 8man will run a Merc, Reaver, or even a Paladin over a Scout. Their mitigation is significantly higher, HP pool is larger, damage is either on par or much higher, and their RA choices are more effective to this setting. Outside zerg surfing there is no niche for me to fill that the community at large is willing to allow.

Which brings us back to stealth wars and groups where i am outperformed by every stealth toon out there. Significantly outperformed in melee especially, and often enough as defensive support im a speedbump.

I didnt ask to be locked into a playstyle where im ineffective until i have the ability to RA dump every 10 min. More often than not, and especially with the massive population imbalance, this is what im left with. Last 5 times time i logged in primetime for me Mids had double the number of Albs and Mids combined.

Watch this video and you will see what an Archer can do better than any other class in the game. Btw the video is only 2:30 long, not 14 minutes. I output the video length incorrectly.

Btw on live the "Archer as primary Interrupter, secondary DPS" worked out so well for my guild group on Live that other 8mans started to field Scouts and Hunters just to be able to counter us.

You say Merc, Paladin, etc. are much better, and that's true, but only at certain things. On my Merc, just to interrupt the backfield takes a shit ton of running and time to get to each target. To DPS them it's the same. Archers have a 500+ range advantage (more with height) over Casters, making Archers the go-to if the group is serious about locking down enemy Casters and Healers. On top of that a practiced Archer can lock down 3-4 Casters/Healers if they are very good at target-hopping and timing their shots with Rapid Fire.

Check out the video and you can see exactly what I mean.

https://youtu.be/TGsUopwl-lY
^
|
|
this video above
.
.
.

You dont have to convince me. I know what you say with regards to the scout group utility is true. The fact is 96% of the community on Phoenix disagrees with you or doesnt care to try. Which again relegates me to playstyles that a scout is highly disadvantaged in, or as a zerg volley bot. As far as melee classes the main point is they are better at the things most players prioritize. This does nothing for the scout. We dont fit well in a debuff caster train, and standard 8mans dont care enough to try. This will not change anytime soon.

I completely agree with you that it's a player problem. It was a tough slog on Live to convince even a guild group to take a Visi Ranger, let alone PUGs or competitive 8mans. However, after a while, even said competitive 8mans would hold a slot for me if they knew I was going to be logging on. No one said it was going to be easy, but nothing worth doing (or playing) is.

Start small. Run with a Visi as a duo or a trio, get a reputation, then get in some smallmans, then 8man it. NEVER stay hidden during a fight. Playing as a Ranger I've kicked other Rangers from my groups or asked the GL to kick Rangers from the group because they were playing like a Stealther and not as a team player. This is the reason that Visi won't group Stealthers. It has nothing to do with the class and everything to do with the player.

When a "Stealther" plays like a team player amazing things can happen. They can increase lethality or control. They can become a denial-of-force tool (aka master interrupters). I remember this one Infil in particular who stayed /stuck to me and assisted like a champ. On my Merc I was the MA, and the two of us would climb the walls in keep assault after assault and just wreak havoc. I would dare to say that it was far more effective than two Mercs. As an Infil who knew his job in a Visi group he had a much wider toolset than I did as a Merc, and I used my Shield when we would assault/fallback/climb to Guard him. Meanwhile the Cleric(s) and Friar kept us going. He made certain that targets were diseased, snared, dotted, etc. We racked up a pretty impressive body count and helped to break the defenses of heavily guarded keeps and towers. Again, I don't think we would have been half as successful if it was two Mercs instead of Merc/Infil. He didn't stay hidden, he didn't go off to go Perf single sitting targets for his own glory; he ran as a team player on a class that has been relegated to solo or stealth gank group status.

This is what the game and this server needs. Open minds and "experimental" playstyles. Developers, are you listening? Encourage the sort of play that I advocate, as it is more inclusive. Inclusiveness is vital to the long term health of the server.
Sat 28 Sep 2019 10:26 PM by Ulio ah ah
(before reaching the 50 pages of the post)

for GMs

give us an AF buff + d / q buff on the shield line so we stop complaining.

Sun 29 Sep 2019 9:49 AM by chois
Like it, or do like the new archery just put all the buff line in bow, to have a reason to spec bow atleast, just the buff not the new mechanics
Sun 29 Sep 2019 10:26 AM by Cadebrennus
chois wrote: ↑
Sun 29 Sep 2019 9:49 AM
Like it, or do like the new archery just put all the buff line in bow, to have a reason to spec bow atleast, just the buff not the new mechanics

That's a good point about buffs tied to bow spec, the new bow mechanics aside (the new bow mechanics suck).
Wed 2 Oct 2019 3:45 PM by Ulio ah ah
I reached rank 4l, as Ra I took:

tireless, lw, purge2, quick5, MoArcery4.

soon I will take purge4 because I realized that without it I have no hope against the assasin

(spec: 50 thrust, 35 longbow, 29 shield, 37stealth).
Wed 2 Oct 2019 8:57 PM by gotwqqd
Ulio ah ah wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Oct 2019 3:45 PM
I reached rank 4l, as Ra I took:

tireless, lw, purge2, quick5, MoArcery4.

soon I will take purge4 because I realized that without it I have no hope against the assasin

(spec: 50 thrust, 35 longbow, 29 shield, 37stealth).
And your fights are lasting minutes where you use purge multiple times in same encounter?
Thu 3 Oct 2019 4:04 PM by Ulio ah ah
obviously not, I wanted to say that to have a chance against the assasins I must have purge up, otherwise I can sit.
Mon 7 Oct 2019 7:57 PM by Daoc_1
Makrist wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 12:51 PM
Daoc_1 wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 5:22 AM
Man this is a really GREAT Post ! ! !
I am currently leveling an Inconnu Scout now at level 25 and am perfectly fine being Bow/Stealth specced. I have this philosophy on this whole thing....
Why not use the class the way its originally made for.. "Scouting" ??? I mean, I know people on here will not agree but this is how " I PLAY" my scout...
I scout out for the other BG's, Zergs, 8mans, Small mans.. or even the occasional solo toon.
I also say that "IF" they get up on me, i didnt do my job.
If ya want a "melee Stealther" go Infi/Mini
If ya want a "Scout" play the toon like its ment to be played...

Just my thoughts...

My added side of this is.. if we do not get buffs, pets, DW ... atleast make it to where we can climb walls hahahhaa ( I know TO OPD THEN) haha

I dont care how you play your toon to be honest. You can level him to 50, template him, and then spend the rest of your time in Mithra for all i care. There are a few things you should know:

Assassins will uncover you. Period. If you are able to Scout targets worth scouting you will be close enough to get taken out. 50 stealth wont save you.

Archers will likely uncover you as often as assassins. 50 stealth wont save you.

If a visible runs over the top of you during a detection pulse they will see you. You may or may not get uncovered, but you are rolling the dice by sticking around to let them try.

Bow damage is respectable, but it scales horribly after 35 bow. The difference between 35 and 50 spec is approximately 25 damage on rapidfire shots.

Slam is a one trick pony. 85% of the fights it gets purged. Numb has a different style animation. Most dont fall for the "purge numb trick slam later". Even if they do 10 seconds after numb you will likely be so far behind it wont matter. I have killed literally 2 characters with the slam shoot trick. Every other one has been purged or added on by another. I dont even use it anymore.

Casters are 50/50. If they are MoC skilled and can use /face its likely over. If they have a few RR and know how to quickly /face its likely over. Dumb ones are free RP, smart ones are death, the ones in the middle can go either way depending on the caster class.

If it has a shield you are likely dead.

If it is a light melee class with a couple toys (IP, etc) you are also likely dead.

Healers, shaman, druids, and bards will CC you instant heal themselves and just run away in general. Out of those bards are stupid hard to kill without help due to interrupts. Healers usually run. Druids usually run, shaman are 50/50 in my experience. About half stay and fight. As long as they dont MoC you should be fine.

Wow butt hurt much... Bro like i said.. this how " I Play My Scout" To be honest... Its all situational and positional.. Tanks are fun to shoot and have arrows just fly off them.. Casters thats a different story in its self... Go ahead and use MOC... i know how to get range faster than a fat kid eats cake.. BTW im that fat kid bwahahaha .. but on a serious note.. I know Scouts have their ups and downs... just like EVERY OTHER CLASS OUT THERE. If you know how you OWN CLASS Dies... you know how to play to its strengths also..
Mon 7 Oct 2019 8:02 PM by Daoc_1
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 8:52 AM
Daoc_1 wrote: ↑
Wed 18 Sep 2019 5:22 AM
Man this is a really GREAT Post ! ! !
I am currently leveling an Inconnu Scout now at level 25 and am perfectly fine being Bow/Stealth specced. I have this philosophy on this whole thing....
Why not use the class the way its originally made for.. "Scouting" ??? I mean, I know people on here will not agree but this is how " I PLAY" my scout...
I scout out for the other BG's, Zergs, 8mans, Small mans.. or even the occasional solo toon.
I also say that "IF" they get up on me, i didnt do my job.
If ya want a "melee Stealther" go Infi/Mini
If ya want a "Scout" play the toon like its ment to be played...

Just my thoughts...

My added side of this is.. if we do not get buffs, pets, DW ... atleast make it to where we can climb walls hahahhaa ( I know TO OPD THEN) haha
You really can’t know the problems with a pve spec at that low level

BTW don’t bother with stealth till after 45ish
I agree about the Stealth... But i dont play my toon like most people do. I know how easy it is to die on a Scout.. So i use its STRENGTHS to my advantage... I know how to snipe, use cover to my advantage... IF the situation calls for it, i could even be out in open range and get a kill. If i wanted to play a Melee toon that has stealth, id play a GREAT mini or Infi... but thats not why i picked a Scout. If people would rather complain about a class instead of finding its weakness, the y really shouldnt be playing that toon.
Wed 9 Oct 2019 7:34 PM by chois
well can we have an update scout oneday ........6M rp 8 months and i continue to hope...... in vain probably......
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Albion or the latest topics