FnF turrets bug abuse? - Phoenix Freeshard

I've been in a few sieges, and I've yet been in a keep siege vs. hibs, where FnF turrets were not placed on ramparts (oil area etc...) before gates were down.

Is this a bug abuse?
I'm asking because I'm not sure if posting it in discord is worth my time.

I've been told to record it, but don't understand what the point is. You can't see who the shrooms belong to anyway, or am I missing something here?

I mean, if it's a bug abuse, all a GM needs to do is watch hibs take a keep that has defenders.
But I understand if GM's have higher priorities.

Thu 4 Jul 2019 10:10 AM by inoeth

dont know if thats a bug but imo it is a huge advantage for hibs not have to fear any oil or defenders attacking from above

Thu 4 Jul 2019 10:14 AM by Chill

but why a bug? u have los to the gt and enemies can attack the shrooms so what´s the problem

Thu 4 Jul 2019 11:55 AM by Sepplord

Chill wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jul 2019 10:14 AM
but why a bug? u have los to the gt and enemies can attack the shrooms so what´s the problem

how do people have LOS to a GT that is on top of the wall from downstairs?

answer: they don't, but due to how placement of shrooms work it is possible to put shrooms onto a surface that you do not have LOS to.
They have LOS to the GT...but not to the place where the shroom is put down on

Thu 4 Jul 2019 1:31 PM by Shamissa

It has been really frustrated lately how hibs abusing their power. But i also understand that the game allow them to do it so. Shrooms on top of towers/ck defended should not happened imo. Eldritch, Enchanters, Nightshades all kinds free casting through the walls of a defended keep. Is has been really bad lately that they cast at the Lord's room killing most everyone in there trying to defend and please dont tell me "Oh is GROUND SET" i play this game since day one i know what is groundset and range. Hibs really been abusing on shrooms and their free casting , but is really their fault? who knows. until this get solved i am gonna go play something else and prolly get my guild out here since everyone are getting frustrated. i know Devs are trying but not sure if they are seeing the big picture of the problem going on here.

Thank you all and have fun.

Thu 4 Jul 2019 5:13 PM by Leandrys

Shamissa wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jul 2019 1:31 PM
It has been really frustrated lately how hibs abusing their power. But i also understand that the game allow them to do it so. Shrooms on top of towers/ck defended should not happened imo. Eldritch, Enchanters, Nightshades all kinds free casting through the walls of a defended keep. Is has been really bad lately that they cast at the Lord's room killing most everyone in there trying to defend and please dont tell me "Oh is GROUND SET" i play this game since day one i know what is groundset and range. Hibs really been abusing on shrooms and their free casting , but is really their fault? who knows. until this get solved i am gonna go play something else and prolly get my guild out here since everyone are getting frustrated. i know Devs are trying but not sure if they are seeing the big picture of the problem going on here.

Thank you all and have fun.

And this day, not any sense was made.

Thu 4 Jul 2019 7:26 PM by Chill

Still didn`t get the Problem. This is how an animist works. Do u complain about an eld Who throws his bolds to an enemy at the roof? An animist throws schrooms to a place in his range its just a cast. We are not talking about shrooms in walls or trees or a groundassist in the Lord room just a gt in castrange. Everybody cries about one class that is "op" every realm has those classes (bd/theug pets going throu closed doors) , so get over it stop crying and start fighting. 😜

ps: I dont Play an animist in rvr/pvp

Thu 4 Jul 2019 8:55 PM by Druth

I'd like a word from the Team really.

And in regards to "seeing" a GT on the walls, it's simply not physically possible.
You can see the side of the walls, but your char can never ever see the ground on a rampart, when it's above your position.
You could put a shroom on the exact line between wall and rampart, and then have it tip either down or up on the wall depending on your angle from the point, but I doubt this is whats happening.

I do not know if it's okay to place shrooms on a spot you technically should not be able to see, which is why I am asking here.

Thu 4 Jul 2019 8:58 PM by Anelyn77

You can only place shrooms on 1st floor elevation battlements between crenels (-|_| -like this in empty space) by manually moving your gt on wall then rising the GT elevation with mouse scroll. This is intended mechanic is not abusing anything or a BUG.

Shrooms also have limited (they follow LOS rules, unlike mobile pets who go through walls / doors) view angles when on battlements, so you just need to move, or destroy them (is not like an animist can drop a whole stack of shrooms, you can only cast one at a time and it's 5s base cast time, fully buffed maybe 3s).

Also range of placing shrooms is limited (950ish being max range from caster, casting on height reduces it even further to maybe 700ish units).

So it's no bug and no abuse either. Same as from ground I can cast ST or TWF or NM or Ichor on walls (and not me as myself, but anyone really). It has always been part of the game and always will be.

Shrooms can be: mezzed / stunned / confussed / AoE by any caster in 1 cast.

Move or do one of the above? It's not like they are hidden and untargetable.

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aichas 3L2 animist and rising

Fri 5 Jul 2019 5:29 AM by Druth

Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Jul 2019 8:58 PM
You can only place shrooms on 1st floor elevation battlements between crenels (-|_| -like this in empty space) by manually moving your gt on wall then rising the GT elevation with mouse scroll. This is intended mechanic is not abusing anything or a BUG.

Shrooms also have limited (they follow LOS rules, unlike mobile pets who go through walls / doors) view angles when on battlements, so you just need to move, or destroy them (is not like an animist can drop a whole stack of shrooms, you can only cast one at a time and it's 5s base cast time, fully buffed maybe 3s).

Also range of placing shrooms is limited (950ish being max range from caster, casting on height reduces it even further to maybe 700ish units).

So it's no bug and no abuse either. Same as from ground I can cast ST or TWF or NM or Ichor on walls (and not me as myself, but anyone really). It has always been part of the game and always will be.

Shrooms can be: mezzed / stunned / confussed / AoE by any caster in 1 cast.

Move or do one of the above? It's not like they are hidden and untargetable.

/Bnotashamed + Aicha + Aichas 3L2 animist and rising

I believe the casting up in air is the "problem" then.
ST and Ichor are target based, not GT. And I think the change to TWF/NM, where you need sight to your GT was intended to remove putting TWF on top of towers, and even ramparts (but mostly inside Lord Rooms). I think, I don't know.

I am still interested in knowing if casting in the air, to let them drop on ramparts, is intended behavior.
However you want to phrase it, the "shrooms land on a GT you do NOT have LOS to", and I think that's not intended.
Because, for example, it renders the oil area useless against hibs, an area that not even climbers can reach.

I just really want an answer from someone from the Team, because I've been getting conflicted responses.

Edit: And turrets have around 800 hp's, so you'd need some amazing crits to 1 shot aoe them.

Fri 5 Jul 2019 6:52 AM by Sepplord

if i remember right (can't find the post):

last time i read an explanation the problem was that the shroom gets casted into the air, and then snaps to the closest possible location for a shroom, allowing shrooming out of LOS

but it was told that was changed to stop that from happening, but as crafty players have found out there are still ways to get a similar effect, not as bad as it was but still out of scope of intention (imo)

Fri 5 Jul 2019 7:39 AM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jul 2019 6:52 AM
if i remember right (can't find the post):

last time i read an explanation the problem was that the shroom gets casted into the air, and then snaps to the closest possible location for a shroom, allowing shrooming out of LOS

but it was told that was changed to stop that from happening, but as crafty players have found out there are still ways to get a similar effect, not as bad as it was but still out of scope of intention (imo)

The main problem with the above, was that you could place shrooms that could not be melee'd/pbaoe'd.
I really have no idea if the current situation is okay or not, so I stopped appealing it because I am not getting any result.
This alone could indicate it's okay to do it, but then lets get it made official so people can stop wasting energy accusing hibs of exploiting.

Fri 5 Jul 2019 8:25 AM by Anelyn77

No it's not tin air, the GT will snap at edge of the wall (outside edge ofc) and you can place GT there and have LoS on it, so it's not a bug.

There is a cap on area of 15 shrooms (irrelevant how many animists are summoning).

Yes ST and Ichor are targeted, but all GT (including RM / Eld / Wiz aoe) can be cast on walls at the very edge by manually placing your GT.

Only GT RA that can be fired without LOS to GT is Volley, and it will only hit peeps with no ceiling above their heads (so for example If I am sigeing a keep, I can fire from outside inside the inner yard without seeing my GT - on Volley).

-Bnot

Fri 5 Jul 2019 8:59 AM by Druth

Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jul 2019 8:25 AM
No it's not tin air, the GT will snap at edge of the wall (outside edge ofc) and you can place GT there and have LoS on it, so it's not a bug.

Feels a bit like back-paddling, you wrote earlier you scrolled up a bit to put down the shrooms.
Mousescroll using GT means the GT is in the air, which makes it a AirTarget and not Groundtarget

Test it, if you are able to place shrooms on ramparts without touching the mousewheel.
If you are, I guess it really settles the question for me.

Fri 5 Jul 2019 12:26 PM by Sleepwell

Sounds like abuse to me. If its not, then twf should be allowed to work the same way. If thats the case, im fine with it.

Fri 5 Jul 2019 12:53 PM by Leandrys

It's not abuse at all, animists have the right to do so, you always can see your groundtarget a bit a the edge of walls, TWF is casted the same way if needed.

But i guess it doesn't matter at all, it's al about blind nerfing.

Fri 5 Jul 2019 2:07 PM by Anelyn77

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jul 2019 8:59 AM
Anelyn77 wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jul 2019 8:25 AM
No it's not tin air, the GT will snap at edge of the wall (outside edge ofc) and you can place GT there and have LoS on it, so it's not a bug.

Feels a bit like back-paddling, you wrote earlier you scrolled up a bit to put down the shrooms.
Mousescroll using GT means the GT is in the air, which makes it a AirTarget and not Groundtarget

Test it, if you are able to place shrooms on ramparts without touching the mousewheel.
If you are, I guess it really settles the question for me.

Buddy.

You can rise your GT on Y AXIS. it's a game mechanic. It's not in the air, it's on the wall, and only 1st elevation / floor (cause camera is locked when manually setting GT). You can't put shrooms in the thin AIR. You need a solid ground for placement - like the border of the wall. What is so hard to understand really? If there is an empty space, like between crenels of the wall, you can put shrooms in that place, same as you can cast GT NM / TWF on the edge of the wall is not rocket science, it's been always in the game and working as intended.

It only works for LEVEL 1 elevations. Look at any bridge in NF. From ground, I can put a shroom or cast a GT on top of the bridge BUT ONLY at the edge of it, not in middle or the other side. It's same for any keep / tower.

That's why you see TWF / NM on oil on towers and not on palistone (balistae or what is called) which is on 2nd floor / Elevation - because you can't do it from ground. Sure you can do it from 1st floor, or by getting on top, but not from ground lvl, and only on edge from outside because of LoS.

There are no hidden shrooms in walls or trees or anything. If I make a big stack of FNF BEHIND a tree, it's all cool, just because you don't see em before you're vaporized it's fine.

Same with water, can only place shrooms ON SURFACE of water, not under or on bottom. You will always see them (if not afk) and can either CC / nuke, or simply avoid?

All the best <3

/Bnot + Aicha & Aichas

Fri 5 Jul 2019 2:15 PM by Sleepwell

I would tend to disagree, and while i respect everyones opinion, i too would like to hear from a dev or someone from the team. On the edge, or on a wall isnt an issue, but i have seen shrooms cast on the ramparts... u know.. the little wooden boardwalk BEHIND the wall while i was defending vs hib. There is no LOS to that area from their point. Possilbe to GT assist someone and get a target there? Yes, but that is not how shrooms (or twf) are supposed to work the way i read it. I have never seen twf work like that... maybe it does.. .If it does, along with shrooms and twf, then i guess its working as intended. If, like on live at one point, they are using the x,y (z) axis to drop the shroom in the air and then it magically floats down and lands on the rampart, then yes.. i consider it bug abuse and will continue to believe that until a dev or support says that is working as intended.

Fri 5 Jul 2019 2:16 PM by

gruenesschaf

Until a couple weeks ago mouse wheel / z position was actually respected making it possible to place shrooms up in the air server side (the client always renders non flying mobs on the ground regardless of their actual position giving the appearance as if the shrooms nuke through walls), the change basically made all ground targets snap to the navigation mesh / on the ground, that's also the reason you can't place shrooms under water -> we don't allow mobs to path there / there is only a nav mesh on the water surface.

Anyways, as written in the patch notes, in OF we had a shroom exclusion zone around enemy keeps making it impossible to place a shroom until the first door is down, while doing mostly what it should there still was the issue with being able to place shrooms into alb lord rooms. Since the switch to nf we didn't have anything and todays patch now limits the animist shroom summoning spells (main pet and fnf) range to 300 while in a keep / tower area which should practically remove this issue.

Fri 5 Jul 2019 2:19 PM by Sleepwell

So @gruenesschaf , i'm trying to simplify this question for myself. If i encounter someone placing a shroom on a rampart.. the little wooden platform that you run along behind the wall of a keep held by mid, with the door closed... do i take video and report it, or is it working as intended?

Fri 5 Jul 2019 2:49 PM by Anelyn77

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Jul 2019 2:16 PM
Until a couple weeks ago mouse wheel / z position was actually respected making it possible to place shrooms up in the air server side (the client always renders non flying mobs on the ground regardless of their actual position giving the appearance as if the shrooms nuke through walls), the change basically made all ground targets snap to the navigation mesh / on the ground, that's also the reason you can't place shrooms under water -> we don't allow mobs to path there / there is only a nav mesh on the water surface.

Anyways, as written in the patch notes, in OF we had a shroom exclusion zone around enemy keeps making it impossible to place a shroom until the first door is down, while doing mostly what it should there still was the issue with being able to place shrooms into alb lord rooms. Since the switch to nf we didn't have anything and todays patch now limits the animist shroom summoning spells (main pet and fnf) range to 300 while in a keep / tower area which should practically remove this issue.

Well this affects animist a lot more in keep / tower sieges, because there are fights outside as well, I am totally fine with making it impossible to put shrooms on walls / windows if that's the intent, but being stuck with 300 range to summon pets it's bad, because said pet has 1k range to cast, so will never reach enemy back line @1.5k range to interrupt. And charging forward as animist to cast 5s spell in big battles ain't really ideal. Before we could drop them at 900ish range, so they could still hit back line to rupt heals / support / casters, now.... just no shrooms in rvr as most fights are usually near objectives I guess?

Can we at least as compensation, get bombers to actually interrupt enemy casts / archery like any spell with a dmg component should? Please? Thanks!

/Bnotashamed + Aicha & Aichas

Sat 6 Jul 2019 3:33 PM by Chaskha

Why the hatred vs the shrooms.
You show your nose at a potern and a fast shaman can AE Dot on you. He duo with a quick healer? Your all stunned and getting heavily dotted and AoEd by the RMS and BDs.
You see a shroom appearing? You move away or PBAoE the shit of it or mez it.

I am in favor or reporting any animist (or other) which HIDE the shrooms inside structures, making it untargetable but all that shrooms restrictions is getting out of control.

What most players enjoy? Stability, more or less group balance and new things keeping the interest. The tasks, that was awesome (new thing), Dark Spire (new thing), a bit of love for the thane, monk ... the nerfs in the name of balance will always create frustration and possibly less clients (it's a feeling, I'm not threatening to leave if things don't go my way like the 5yo playing this game). Even NF was a massive change, I voted for it but still believe it's a choice that should not even have appeared on our plates (I understand that the technical issues played a role for this choice to even be considered).

I just might be wrong, I am not a specialist of human nature but nerfs and restriction don't seem a good idea to me.

Mon 8 Jul 2019 6:32 AM by Sepplord

Chaskha wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Jul 2019 3:33 PM
Why the hatred vs the shrooms.
You show your nose at a potern and a fast shaman can AE Dot on you. He duo with a quick healer? Your all stunned and getting heavily dotted and AoEd by the RMS and BDs.
You see a shroom appearing? You move away or PBAoE the shit of it or mez it.

I am in favor or reporting any animist (or other) which HIDE the shrooms inside structures, making it untargetable but all that shrooms restrictions is getting out of control.

What most players enjoy? Stability, more or less group balance and new things keeping the interest. The tasks, that was awesome (new thing), Dark Spire (new thing), a bit of love for the thane, monk ... the nerfs in the name of balance will always create frustration and possibly less clients (it's a feeling, I'm not threatening to leave if things don't go my way like the 5yo playing this game). Even NF was a massive change, I voted for it but still believe it's a choice that should not even have appeared on our plates (I understand that the technical issues played a role for this choice to even be considered).

I just might be wrong, I am not a specialist of human nature but nerfs and restriction don't seem a good idea to me.

The difference is that a fast shaman/healer can't do it like shrooms do. When you pop out and back in before the cast is finished you are out of LOS and don't get hit.
The shrooms still all hit you, if they started their cast on you theres no wall in the game they won't nuke through.

Animist abusing it, are ruining it for all other players (including other animists that get nerfed into oblivion along with the exploiters)...reporting doesn't really work, since you don't know whos shrooms are nuking you, unless you die...and then it is still hard to prove that it was one of the exploit shrooms doing the deathblow to you. So enforcement against exploiting animist is really hard/tedious.

The castrange nerf is not a perfect fix, and i am quite sure the devs would prefer a different option, but looking back they have probably put in loads of time trying to make it work right and everytime player still find ways to put shrooms that isn't intended. So we probably got to a point where they decided: "okay, we'll use the sledgehammer now. If we can figure out a better way later - good, if not this will still overall be better for the server than letting shrooms like they are"

Mon 8 Jul 2019 3:22 PM by Chaskha

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 6:32 AM
Chaskha wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Jul 2019 3:33 PM
Why the hatred vs the shrooms.
You show your nose at a potern and a fast shaman can AE Dot on you. He duo with a quick healer? Your all stunned and getting heavily dotted and AoEd by the RMS and BDs.
You see a shroom appearing? You move away or PBAoE the shit of it or mez it.

I am in favor or reporting any animist (or other) which HIDE the shrooms inside structures, making it untargetable but all that shrooms restrictions is getting out of control.

What most players enjoy? Stability, more or less group balance and new things keeping the interest. The tasks, that was awesome (new thing), Dark Spire (new thing), a bit of love for the thane, monk ... the nerfs in the name of balance will always create frustration and possibly less clients (it's a feeling, I'm not threatening to leave if things don't go my way like the 5yo playing this game). Even NF was a massive change, I voted for it but still believe it's a choice that should not even have appeared on our plates (I understand that the technical issues played a role for this choice to even be considered).

I just might be wrong, I am not a specialist of human nature but nerfs and restriction don't seem a good idea to me.

The difference is that a fast shaman/healer can't do it like shrooms do. When you pop out and back in before the cast is finished you are out of LOS and don't get hit.
The shrooms still all hit you, if they started their cast on you theres no wall in the game they won't nuke through.

Animist abusing it, are ruining it for all other players (including other animists that get nerfed into oblivion along with the exploiters)...reporting doesn't really work, since you don't know whos shrooms are nuking you, unless you die...and then it is still hard to prove that it was one of the exploit shrooms doing the deathblow to you. So enforcement against exploiting animist is really hard/tedious.

The castrange nerf is not a perfect fix, and i am quite sure the devs would prefer a different option, but looking back they have probably put in loads of time trying to make it work right and everytime player still find ways to put shrooms that isn't intended. So we probably got to a point where they decided: "okay, we'll use the sledgehammer now. If we can figure out a better way later - good, if not this will still overall be better for the server than letting shrooms like they are"

As animist, you kinda rely on hidding your shrooms a bit and play with surprises.
I get what you say but again, I've never ever doomed a player that is careful. Anytime my shrooms are spotted, they get mezzed or AoEd at a distance they can't reach to fight back.
I would argue that there is no hidding from theurg pets once they acquired you, same with any other pet.
It's a bit part of the game, I got doomed by theurg pets inside a corridor, I was lowlife and poped in and out the door, I was annoyed but hey it was my fault.

I'd rather have all the magic classes of other realms getting a Monsanto GTAoE Spell that kills all the shrooms in a 500 area and can be casted every 5 minutes rather than another nerf to the animist class. And while at it, give us back our 40 shrooms per area so we can multiple animists PvE (ever seen how many theurg pets per area in Darkspire?).

Mon 8 Jul 2019 3:31 PM by Sepplord

Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 3:22 PM
I would argue that there is no hidding from theurg pets once they acquired you, same with any other pet.
It's a bit part of the game, I got doomed by theurg pets inside a corridor, I was lowlife and poped in and out the door, I was annoyed but hey it was my fault.

That can only happen when someone casts all those pets on you, while you are in loss. And then you escape through the door (with nukes you would already be dead, with shrooms the door wouldn't stop you from dieing). So you knew (should have been able to know) that there are aggro pets waiting for you and still popped out. Theurg pets don't stand around and target people that come into LOS

The difference is that you can pre-cast shrooms into a location. Someone pops into LOS for 1milisecond and goes back again, he still gets hit by each shrooms once.
That doesn't happen with Theurg pets. Theurg pets have to be casted on you. The theurg needs LOS on you like if he wanted to cast a nuke. When you die/log/go through a door the pets do nothing now. They don't retarget onto someone close by. They don't stand around waiting for someone, ANYONE to come into LOS and then attack that person at once

PS: yes i have seen how theurgs can trivialize darkspire to meaninglessness...that's a different topic though, but i must say, if you think that it would be better to up animists to theurg lvl in Darkspire instead of changing how theurgs trivialize hard mobs then i don't really know what to say anymore. Because that's just a dumb idea

Mon 8 Jul 2019 3:42 PM by Chaskha

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 3:31 PM
Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Jul 2019 3:22 PM
I would argue that there is no hidding from theurg pets once they acquired you, same with any other pet.
It's a bit part of the game, I got doomed by theurg pets inside a corridor, I was lowlife and poped in and out the door, I was annoyed but hey it was my fault.

That can only happen when someone casts all those pets on you, while you are in loss. And then you escape through the door (with nukes you would already be dead, with shrooms the door wouldn't stop you from dieing). So you knew (should have been able to know) that there are aggro pets waiting for you and still popped out. Theurg pets don't stand around and target people that come into LOS

The difference is that you can pre-cast shrooms into a location. Someone pops into LOS for 1milisecond and goes back again, he still gets hit by each shrooms once.
That doesn't happen with Theurg pets. Theurg pets have to be casted on you. The theurg needs LOS on you like if he wanted to cast a nuke. When you die/log/go through a door the pets do nothing now. They don't retarget onto someone close by. They don't stand around waiting for someone, ANYONE to come into LOS and then attack that person at once

PS: yes i have seen how theurgs can trivialize darkspire to meaninglessness...that's a different topic though, but i must say, if you think that it would be better to up animists to theurg lvl in Darkspire instead of changing how theurgs trivialize hard mobs then i don't really know what to say anymore. Because that's just a dumb idea

You're right on the difference you point out.

I just want to avoid more frustration on the class of hibernia I like so much. Yes I do think the PvE side of animist should get up like it was before (say early beta of phoenix) instead of being nerfed but as I have nothing against providing a tool to midgard and albion to fight against the shrooms

I don't know, a RAs called phongic bareer every 10 min, gain immunity to shroom for the group for 1 minute I don't know. I just wish the direction of balance is not nerfing but tooling. It may be a dumb idea, it doesn't seem so to me obviously but I'm willing to hear arguments and point of views.

Mon 8 Jul 2019 3:46 PM by Sepplord

well i disagree that animist should be made even stronger in PvE, he is still by far, the king of farming...but i see your line of thinking and that you don't want to be OP....you just want to have loads of shrooms

which is understandable, though i don't see how it could be balanced properly