I'm curious what the long term goal is for Friars on this server. Is this the final product or can we anticipate some more balancing in the future?
That simply is not accurate, Friars are still viable. There has been a significant decrease in Friar numbers, we are now back to where we were before people jumped on to them as a FoTM class.Bumbles wrote: ↑Mon 3 Jun 2019 3:25 PMFriar is a dead class. The Devs have shown they have zero no skill in the “balance” department. Just hope they see don’t screw them up anymore...
Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:24 AMthey would need to be completely OP in groups to lose their "friars suck" stigma though...simply being balanced will not be enough for people to accept a new meta
Friar numbers just about doubled in the month after Sayuki posted that video of his Friar beating 4 incredibly poorly played assassins, so that is why I refer to them as FoTM, though as you rightly state, despite the influx of RA Friars it led to no noticeable change in the 48H or weekly Herald stats for either RP or solo kills for Friars. I pointed that out multiple times in the various RA threads, but why let facts get in the way of opinion/perception bias? Some people were convinced that Friars were OP soloing beasts and so just conveniently ignored the Herald. As for Friar numbers, I pointed out in another thread that even at the height of Friar numbers their numbers were usually less than the assassins in any 1 realm.Blitze wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:25 AMDon’t think friars were ever FoTM as they never got high up the LWRPs charts or were ever in the top ten most played classes...
If by FoTM you mean that you saw a few more than the usual 2 (gluttons for punishment visi-soloers) the frontiers, the maybe.
I have highlighted the ones from your list that I believe are viable. My position on spec points has not changed from a few weeks after launch, I honestly do not believe that we need more points, we just need some adjustments. For items 1 and 2 I believe it should ONLY be the 42 and 44 spec versions of the spell that are group.Blitze wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:25 AMSome of ideas for improving friar:
1.Make self endurance redux a group spell
Make end regen chant a grp chant
2. Male self absorb a group spell
Make self haste a group spell
Make self buffs castable while moving
Make HoT combat castable
Remove reflex attack and give friars there RR5 pbaoe disarm (or AoTG)
Change lvl 50 staff style to anything useful
Change lvl 44 staff style to be second in chain (not third)
Give 1.8 specc points
Make a parry guard (like shield guard)
& there are so many more options
There have been opinions given as to why the Herald should be ignored, I stated in those other threads I did not agree with those points, so no, I did not conveniently forget them. Patrolling between APK and AMG is not the best strategy for someone looking to solo. My point about solo kills was down to people repeatedly stating that Friars were an OP solo class, nothing in the Herald backed up that claim. Other visible melee/hybrid classes without movement speed performed better in the Herald rankings and yet that was conveniently ignored.Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:01 AMAlso in those other threads you have gotten many explanations why RP-numbers <-> strength correlation is not a hard fact, yet you continue to bash everyone that disagrees with your opinion as biased people that don't want to look at facts.
I will only repeat 2 arguments that you conveniently forget during your self rightneous comment, if you are intrested in more you can go back to those other threads you mentioned and read the reactions.
snip...
Interesting anecdote, I have been /rude and /slap and /dismissed by assassins when playing various toons, I don't judge all assassins by that handful of players...Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:01 AMShort anecdote to show what kind of players/people jumped onto the fotm-train:
I watched two friars patrol back and forth for almost two hours, while i was doing stuff in my house...i saw them a lot, despite not watching the monitor very often. And they both had really low RP/hr (afaik something around 5-6k).
A bit later i came by the PC and saw that i had been randomly found by someone and killed. These two guys were not in combat log, yet they were standing around my body emoting and teabagging me (and my release bar was already a bit filled, so i had not just recently died).
I am not mad about that btw. before someone tries to use that against me. I am just telling the story to show that a special kind of people joined the friar-fotm-train just to spite stealthers. They don't care about RPs and their playstyle won't show up on herald. These players are gone now again[/i]
Hejjin wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:37 AMThere have been opinions given as to why the Herald should be ignored, I stated in those other threads I did not agree with those points, so no, I did not conveniently forget them
Neither do i...why do feel the need to try and discredit me by implying that i did?Hejjin wrote: I don't judge all assassins by that handful of players...
Intentional misrepresentation was calling Friars OP as soloers. I could point to multiple threads about different classes where the response is along the line of 'ignore the Herald' because it does not reflect their opinion.Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:00 PMYour previous comment implied pretty heaily that there are no counterarguments and that people rather chose to ignore the "facts" that can be seen in the herald.
Thanks for confirming that you didn't forget but intentionally misrepresented the situation
Actually no, I mostly ignored the anecdote because of the following :Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:00 PMNeither do i...why do feel the need to try and discredit me by implying that i did?
The anecdote was to show you why a bunch of FOTM-bandwagoners don't show up as top-RP earners in the herald. I believe it did show that quite well. And apparently you think that too, at least that's the most logical explanation why you would try to distract from the point i was making and instead attack me with passive aggression
That was your quote, I pointed out similar behaviour I have encountered in Assassins.Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 11:01 AMI am not mad about that btw. before someone tries to use that against me. I am just telling the story to show that a special kind of people joined the friar-fotm-train
Hejjin wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:24 PMAs for your anecdote, Friar numbers almost doubled when they became popular, and yet you are referring to a very small percentage of those new Friars that were mostly running between APK and AMG, what about the rest of them?
REVOLTE wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:37 AMso how would you two make friars "balanced"?
what would the optimal final produce look like for you?
asking, cuz i played friar on uth (flawed af.) and found it to be very enjoyable still.
Strange, I noticed a lot of new Friars out in the frontiers with only a small portion of the being between APk and AMG.Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:44 PMI didn't see more friars than usual in other areas. Only between AMG<->APK was the frequency increased by a lot.
I never made a claim about the %-population of fotm-friars to normal-friars. Neither did i only adress a small subset of fotm-friars.
Alternatively it was dismissed as meaningless because it did not reflect the claims that were made...Sepplord wrote: ↑Tue 4 Jun 2019 12:44 PMI don't want to have a new discussion about RA and who joined for OPness and who didn't. It won't lead anywhere. The reason i commented was because i felt like you were misrepresenting the situation. So to get back on track:
Herald was not ignored, it was dismissed as meaningless because of several reasons you personally disagree with.
Oh boy, that would once again make Friars a FoTM class, given that they are committed to keeping buff pots, they should allow alchemy to make movement speed pots that are the equivalent of lvl 30ish spells / songs / chants. Then all non-speed classes benefit.teiloh wrote: ↑Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:39 PMStats from PIE/STR/CON to PIE/DEX/CON
Group End Redux
Haste Timer Reduced to 1m, add minor self-speed buff in and out of combat
HOT Insta or Combat Castable
Style Style Review -
Figure Eight > Frontal
Double Strike > Crush DD (25 Delve)
Friar's Fury > Raise GR, remove bleed
Stunning Wrath > 2nd in Chain
Banish > After Parry
Excommunicate > After Banish, 1.1 GR
teiloh wrote: ↑Wed 5 Jun 2019 10:39 PMStats from PIE/STR/CON to PIE/DEX/CON
Group End Redux
Haste Timer Reduced to 1m, add minor self-speed buff in and out of combat
HOT Insta or Combat Castable
Style Style Review -
Figure Eight > Frontal
Double Strike > Crush DD (25 Delve)
Friar's Fury > Raise GR, remove bleed
Stunning Wrath > 2nd in Chain
Banish > After Parry
Excommunicate > After Banish, 1.1 GR
Given that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.teiloh wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:32 AMIt'd be a short self buff tied to haste so they can move around and eke some time out when they're moving from peeling to support
Hejjin wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:39 AMGiven that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.teiloh wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:32 AMIt'd be a short self buff tied to haste so they can move around and eke some time out when they're moving from peeling to support
Are you referring to live or on here, I have no first hand knowledge of Charge, but I have seen Merc's / BM's complain about it. Your suggestion was to increase in and out of combat movement speed. Unless that figure is 174% that would actually be a decrease in movement speed...teiloh wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:51 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:39 AMGiven that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.teiloh wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 8:32 AMIt'd be a short self buff tied to haste so they can move around and eke some time out when they're moving from peeling to support
Charge is 74% movement speed. Something like 15-30% depending on level would be good.
Hejjin wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:18 PMAre you referring to live or on here, I have no first hand knowledge of Charge, but I have seen Merc's / BM's complain about it. Your suggestion was to increase in and out of combat movement speed. Unless that figure is 174% that would actually be a decrease in movement speed...teiloh wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:51 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 9:39 AMGiven that you also want to reduce the reuse time of haste, that would result in Friars having superior in combat movement speed than classes with Charge, and would allow solo Friars to cycle through haste / movement speed when out of combat...I would much rather the dev's upgraded charge for those classes that have it and added speed pots than them giving us a movement speed buff.
Charge is 74% movement speed. Something like 15-30% depending on level would be good.
Charge only saves you end.teiloh wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:31 PMHejjin wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 4:18 PMAre you referring to live or on here, I have no first hand knowledge of Charge, but I have seen Merc's / BM's complain about it. Your suggestion was to increase in and out of combat movement speed. Unless that figure is 174% that would actually be a decrease in movement speed...teiloh wrote: ↑Thu 6 Jun 2019 3:51 PMCharge is 74% movement speed. Something like 15-30% depending on level would be good.
+74%. And you're completely CC immune during the whole thing.
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