Sins change - Phoenix Freeshard

From my experience on this server it seems to me Sins are overplayed and this, to some extent, ruins the game experience of several players and limit the playstyles available.
Sins are a fun and strong class and this itself explain (at least in part) because people like them. Anyway in my opinion on this server they are on top of the food chain and don't have to worry about any threat if not other assassins, and this over time is not wealthy for the overall game balance.
I'm not saying Sins are too strong and should be nerfed, but only that they should be put in a condition where paying attention to their targets and properly positioning is vital to succeed. My suggestion is to slightly change some RAs/stealth dynamics as follow:
- remove vanish or let it cost 10rp and be on a 30mins cooldown;
- give archers an advantage in catching them (better base stealth detection, RAs like truesight, stealth detection utility on bow lines, etc.)
These changes won't affect their ability to kill people quickly and to have their chances vs almost any class, but making rps will require a bit more skill/awareness of the situation.

Mon 27 May 2019 8:35 AM by Sepplord

Drakkanor wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 8:16 AM
I'm not saying Sins are too strong and should be nerfed, but ...

So you are saying that you don't think they should be nerfed, ... but then you propose multiple nerfs?
So you obviously think they should be nerfed, at least man up to that. It's not even like you would be voicing an unpopular opinion

Archers just got a patch btw that makes it easier for them to find assassins. Maybe wait how that plays out for a bit before asking for bigger changes on top...

Mon 27 May 2019 8:41 AM by Druth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 8:35 AM
Drakkanor wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 8:16 AM
I'm not saying Sins are too strong and should be nerfed, but ...

So you are saying that you don't think they should be nerfed, ... but then you propose multiple nerfs?
So you obviously think they should be nerfed, at least man up to that. It's not even like you would be voicing an unpopular opinion

Archers just got a patch btw that makes it easier for them to find assassins. Maybe wait how that plays out for a bit before asking for bigger changes on top...

I don't like sins either, but fully agree. There has been a fairly major change to stealthers, lets see how it plays out first.
Mythics worst mistakes were implementing to many/major nerfs/buffs at once, instead of doing minor adjustments.

Mon 27 May 2019 11:00 AM by Turano

Drakkanor wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 8:16 AM
I'm not saying Sins are too strong and should be nerfed, but ..

Mon 27 May 2019 11:49 AM by phixion

Cool, another nerf vanish thread.

Mon 27 May 2019 8:18 PM by tweedledumb99

I just want it to be impossible for a sin to PA/backstab someone, be losing the fight (with 0 adds the entire time) then vanish when it looks like they're losing.

Ditto SOS.

I want sins to keep vanish for adders, or for when they get popped out of stealth, unready for the fight.

To be able to just deny rp's/kill after choosing your fight is crap for the other (single) player.

Tue 28 May 2019 5:17 PM by nyght999

Well how about you give us sins access to ignore pain, and increased evasion, makes for a good trade don't you think? I mean melee classes can have great blocking and parrying, how about increasing evasion for sins over 50%, or give us dodger. Or better yet, give us parry. Since we need to lose more, give us something good as well. Wouldn't you like that? Sins with over 50% evasion, or the ability to parry?

Tue 28 May 2019 5:31 PM by Dominus

c'mon, something is fundamentally wrong when a Sin feels compelled to jump a plate wearing tank because he know's he can simply vanish when things go wrong.. and that tank is stuck with several minutes of disease. They are top of the food chain with cheap get out of jail free card 4x an hour.

Tue 28 May 2019 5:46 PM by Turano

I never vanish out of a 1v1 and still attack plate tanks. What's your point to that?

Tue 28 May 2019 6:09 PM by phixion

Dominus wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 5:31 PM
c'mon, something is fundamentally wrong when a Sin feels compelled to jump a plate wearing tank because he know's he can simply vanish when things go wrong.. and that tank is stuck with several minutes of disease. They are top of the food chain with cheap get out of jail free card 4x an hour.

God forbid someone uses an RA...

Tue 28 May 2019 6:11 PM by vxr

It might be difficult to implement. I don't know how much the devs can do, but how I always wanted vanish to work like the following:

Remove vanish as an RA.
Give vanish for free to all sins.
Lower reuse timer to 10 minutes.

In order to use vanish, 1 of the following requirements is necessary:
1: 2 or more sources of damage (enemy player damage) within x amount of time (maybe 20 seconds)
2: 2 or more enemies within x distance. maybe 800 distance? Maybe LOS check required.
3: had a kill within last 5 seconds - not sure about this one. maybe deathblow required

Tue 28 May 2019 6:43 PM by Saroi

I mean, first of all. Vanish is totally bugged here. You still get a lot of damage because people finish their casts etc. Pets still follow and attack you while vanished. Don't know if fixed but Archers did not lose sight/target while vanished and could shot you till you are dead.

There is already a slightly counter to vanish or stealth in generel -> Stealth Lore pots.

Now counter doesn't mean you get it all the time but you have a big chance to find the stealthers. And yes you would have to invest a little but this is a MMORPG were you have to do that. You have options, then use them!

There are a few players who are buying claws all the time and I have seen them running around using stealth lore pots when a sin stealthed or vanished and they were able to find him and he died. So the sin used a 15 min RA timer and got killed because of an easy usage of a pot.

Tue 28 May 2019 6:52 PM by Joc

Sins are not hard to find after vanish. Pop a SL pot and you will find them the majority of time. Claws are cheap. Even other sins are using SL pots lately.

Tue 28 May 2019 7:04 PM by chois

Archers just got a patch btw that makes it easier for them to find assassins.
[/quote]

Not to find but a chance to avoid a perf without seeing the sneak, its not the same😊

Tue 28 May 2019 7:27 PM by jelzinga_EU

vxr wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 6:11 PM
It might be difficult to implement. I don't know how much the devs can do, but how I always wanted vanish to work like the following:

Remove vanish as an RA.
Give vanish for free to all sins.
Lower reuse timer to 10 minutes.

In order to use vanish, 1 of the following requirements is necessary:
1: 2 or more sources of damage (enemy player damage) within x amount of time (maybe 20 seconds)
2: 2 or more enemies within x distance. maybe 800 distance? Maybe LOS check required.
3: had a kill within last 5 seconds - not sure about this one. maybe deathblow required

While I appreciate the effort - adding all kinds of these restrictions to an active ability isn't very intuitive to the user. Furthermore, what is ultimately really the goal here, to avoid Vanish in 1vs1 because it is frustrating for the enemy ? A lot of active abilities can be frustrating:
"Thought I had the minstrel but he SoS'ed away",
"Thought I had that sorc, but he MoC lifetapped",
"Thought I had that Mercenary but he IP'ed and used Dirty Tricks",
"Thought I had that Armsman, but he Purged the CC and got me",

However, a lot of those abilities can be pure "I-wins". Vanish is a bit different, it is a "I most likely don't lose"-button. I say "most likely" because if you do find the assassin again he's disarmed and can't fight back - resulting in a swift kill for you.

Depending on the button used in the examples you might argue that they have counters, and you might be right. However, Vanish has a counter too (stealth-lore potions). If you think those potions are not a strong enough counter, please consider that Vanish isn't an I-win button either.

The reason why people pick Vanish early is two-fold:
a) People don't like losing, there is a good chance Vanish will avoid the loss
b) Sins do not have many worthwhile active RA's. Active RA's are generally stronger, but if you look at the list of active RA's available to assassins you will notice that Empty Mind, Strike Prediction and Second Wind are all useless on Phoenix for assassins. So that leaves Purge (no-brainer) and 1 level of Vanish, then goto stack passives.

Tue 28 May 2019 8:48 PM by vxr

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:27 PM
vxr wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 6:11 PM
It might be difficult to implement. I don't know how much the devs can do, but how I always wanted vanish to work like the following:

Remove vanish as an RA.
Give vanish for free to all sins.
Lower reuse timer to 10 minutes.

In order to use vanish, 1 of the following requirements is necessary:
1: 2 or more sources of damage (enemy player damage) within x amount of time (maybe 20 seconds)
2: 2 or more enemies within x distance. maybe 800 distance? Maybe LOS check required.
3: had a kill within last 5 seconds - not sure about this one. maybe deathblow required

While I appreciate the effort - adding all kinds of these restrictions to an active ability isn't very intuitive to the user. Furthermore, what is ultimately really the goal here, to avoid Vanish in 1vs1 because it is frustrating for the enemy ? A lot of active abilities can be frustrating:
"Thought I had the minstrel but he SoS'ed away",
"Thought I had that sorc, but he MoC lifetapped",
"Thought I had that Mercenary but he IP'ed and used Dirty Tricks",
"Thought I had that Armsman, but he Purged the CC and got me",

However, a lot of those abilities can be pure "I-wins". Vanish is a bit different, it is a "I most likely don't lose"-button. I say "most likely" because if you do find the assassin again he's disarmed and can't fight back - resulting in a swift kill for you.

Depending on the button used in the examples you might argue that they have counters, and you might be right. However, Vanish has a counter too (stealth-lore potions). If you think those potions are not a strong enough counter, please consider that Vanish isn't an I-win button either.

The reason why people pick Vanish early is two-fold:
a) People don't like losing, there is a good chance Vanish will avoid the loss
b) Sins do not have many worthwhile active RA's. Active RA's are generally stronger, but if you look at the list of active RA's available to assassins you will notice that Empty Mind, Strike Prediction and Second Wind are all useless on Phoenix for assassins. So that leaves Purge (no-brainer) and 1 level of Vanish, then goto stack passives.

I agree with everything you said. I was just trying to find away to remove it from 1v1s while not nerfing it. I personally wasn't complaining about it.

Wed 29 May 2019 7:24 AM by Sepplord

chois wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:04 PM
Archers just got a patch btw that makes it easier for them to find assassins.

Not to find but a chance to avoid a perf without seeing the sneak, its not the same😊

my remark was directly in reply to someone asking for a better way for archers to find assassins...
I am not sure why you need to quote out of context AND then make a claim that's straight up false.

increased detection range = easier to find assassins

That's a fact. If you never want to find an assassin and only want to run away then that's fine, but it doesn't mean that the other option isn't available in general