@minstels - Phoenix Freeshard

Just curious do you go in to every solo fight thinking....... Ok here we go. A solo fight! Now how can I make this fight last 3 minutes till my people add and I get 60 RP's!

TLDR: I died in a RvR zone, I vented, I feel better!

Tue 30 Apr 2019 2:55 PM by Duse

Minstrels aren’t burst killers, and it’s not our fault people add. So, what’s the purpose of this post exactly?

Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:08 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Duse wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 2:55 PM
Minstrels aren’t burst killers, and it’s not our fault people add. So, what’s the purpose of this post exactly?

Purely to vent it looks like

Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:19 PM by Rhox

Duse wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 2:55 PM
Minstrels aren’t burst killers, and it’s not our fault people add. So, what’s the purpose of this post exactly?

I don't expect them to burst I know they cant do that. I get it.

My thing is if your solo at least try to fight and not just kite to high traffic area so someone else can kill.

Yes it is to vent had bad luck today with a few minstrels burning ever RA they have to kite me to more people. Mean while they did about 5% damage and got next to no RP's. Some fights I would have 100% lost even toe to toe.

Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:30 PM by Lillebror

Lol my Sorc hit harder in melee than my minstrel so there is mostly only one option if they dont use a long stick and cast spells, its staying out of melee range. If you dont want into high trafikk areas to Get killed, just dont follow...

My best option so far is use a yellow pet with high AI at about equal ra as my self. But Even then we need to kite the hardest stupid «solo» targets. But then again the other realms fight necroes and friars, so all realms got there SI classes to fight.

Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:34 PM by Amp_Phetamine

You can fight my Merc if you want Rhoxie. Least I won't run away

Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:37 PM by Rhox

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:34 PM
You can fight my Merc if you want Rhoxie. Least I won't run away

Lol anytime. I never run. Only RR4 Skald without SOS ;-)

Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:42 PM by Lillebror

How does the minstrel kite you after an engage? If he got away, well then he burned both SOS and purge most likly

Sat 11 May 2019 8:59 PM by Sindralor

Duse wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 2:55 PM
Minstrels aren’t burst killers

NOT WITH THAT ATTITUDE

Thu 16 May 2019 7:41 PM by Atreri

I played a minst a long time and em now lvling a new one for this freeshard. Yes I kite. I kite long and I kite far. I have every expectation to not end the fight where it original started. Think of it this way, when you take me on know that its not just me, but every single thing in the environment around us that I can throw at you, including other friendly and enemy players, NPCs, mobs, multiple charmed pets, what ever I can use from the environment, even time, I use time as a weapon.

In short bring a lunch because I do.

Fri 17 May 2019 8:43 AM by Sepplord

Atreri wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 7:41 PM
I played a minst a long time and em now lvling a new one for this freeshard. Yes I kite. I kite long and I kite far. I have every expectation to not end the fight where it original started. Think of it this way, when you take me on know that its not just me, but every single thing in the environment around us that I can throw at you, including other friendly and enemy players, NPCs, mobs, multiple charmed pets, what ever I can use from the environment, even time, I use time as a weapon.

In short bring a lunch because I do.

which is why i usually don't even try to fight a minst

i know, unless the minst is pretty new, that best case i can just not lose.
I won't win though

Fri 17 May 2019 10:01 AM by Valis

If a minstrel isn't kiting and DD'ing you he isn't playing to his strengths and imo how the class was designed to be played! Kite far and long my friend & thank goodness for 10min end pots! 2min endus feel bad man :-p

Fri 17 May 2019 12:39 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
How does the minstrel kite you after an engage? If he got away, well then he burned both SOS and purge most likly

Stun? Snare? Mez?

You act as if they don't have CC options.

Fri 17 May 2019 2:46 PM by Atreri

I’m not sure who I heard this from and it was a very long time ago but these are the words I try to play a minst by: As a minst you shouldn’t win every fight but you should never lose a fight.

Of course you will lose a lot of fights until you figure out what works for you. And even then you will lose fights. But generally speaking a skilled minst player can be a very challenging opponent in terms of how they use the space around them.

Sat 18 May 2019 9:47 PM by Cadebrennus

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 12:39 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
How does the minstrel kite you after an engage? If he got away, well then he burned both SOS and purge most likly

Stun? Snare? Mez?

You act as if they don't have CC options.

Agreed. They also have the exact same armour as a Skald, which is just stupid IMO. And I play Alb now.

Sun 19 May 2019 12:26 AM by Anelyn77

I don't mind minstrels really, there will always be strong solo classes and your class might not even have the tools (irrelevant of RR) to deal with them. Each realm has a very good soloer (outside of stealthers obv), even w/o speed 5. Mentalist, Champ, Reaver, Friar, Thane, cave shaman, VW etc.

Going 1v1 vs them unless you play a class that can counter them is simply suicide, and Emain at least is always packed with FGs running in all directions (mainly mids and albs but still). So you can't have a prolonged fight along the most used routes to various gates / keeps, you will get added.

Even today saw a minstrel jumping on a solo RM, 2 more mids came just as she killed the RM, forced SoS, and 5s later FG mids came, saw the speedy mincer, and went after her, caught her 2k units and that was it

It's how RvR in OF was and still is, and prolly will continue to be for as long as DaoC exists

Sun 19 May 2019 1:42 AM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 9:47 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 12:39 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
How does the minstrel kite you after an engage? If he got away, well then he burned both SOS and purge most likly

Stun? Snare? Mez?

You act as if they don't have CC options.

Agreed. They also have the exact same armour as a Skald, which is just stupid IMO. And I play Alb now.

Are you ever going to stop crying about this? Skalds have 40-60% 2h bonus, are on a higher hit table, a higher damage table, and don't need to use instruments. Det on Skalds is the only thing that's stupid.

Plus their third shout actually does something to other players.

Sun 19 May 2019 6:51 PM by Cadebrennus

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 1:42 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 9:47 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 12:39 PM
Stun? Snare? Mez?

You act as if they don't have CC options.

Agreed. They also have the exact same armour as a Skald, which is just stupid IMO. And I play Alb now.

Are you ever going to stop crying about this? Skalds have 40-60% 2h bonus, are on a higher hit table, a higher damage table, and don't need to use instruments. Det on Skalds is the only thing that's stupid.

Plus their third shout actually does something to other players.

It sounds like you're crying. I'm stating the obvious.

Sun 19 May 2019 8:08 PM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 6:51 PM
It sounds like you're crying. I'm stating the obvious.

Nope. Wipe those tears, you've been crying about this since beta and for decades on live.

"HUR DUR ITS STUPID IMO" with no argument is the definition of crying. Throwing a tantrum because the other kid has a toy you want.

Sun 19 May 2019 10:31 PM by Cadebrennus

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 8:08 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 6:51 PM
It sounds like you're crying. I'm stating the obvious.

Nope. Wipe those tears, you've been crying about this since beta and for decades on live.

"HUR DUR ITS STUPID IMO" with no argument is the definition of crying. Throwing a tantrum because the other kid has a toy you want.

.
.
.
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Lol try being a tough guy away from the keyboard for a change.

Mon 20 May 2019 10:18 AM by lurker

The quality of the debate on these forums is why I keep coming back for more! Keep it up chaps!

Mon 20 May 2019 11:53 AM by dbeattie71

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 1:42 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 9:47 PM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 12:39 PM
Stun? Snare? Mez?

You act as if they don't have CC options.

Agreed. They also have the exact same armour as a Skald, which is just stupid IMO. And I play Alb now.

Are you ever going to stop crying about this? Skalds have 40-60% 2h bonus, are on a higher hit table, a higher damage table, and don't need to use instruments. Det on Skalds is the only thing that's stupid.

Plus their third shout actually does something to other players.

Chain on a class with stealth is stupid, Bards don’t even have chain/scale lol.

Mon 20 May 2019 11:57 AM by florin

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 6:17 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 4:26 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sun 19 May 2019 10:31 PM

Nice memes. That's all the "substance" you can bring to the table, other than "WAAHHHH its unfair!!! because I say so!"

Nice misquote dipshit. Purposely mis-quoting someone is libel. Take note. Also, you've stayed true to form being a tough guy only behind a keyboard.

Cringe

Mon 20 May 2019 1:08 PM by Lillebror

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 12:39 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
How does the minstrel kite you after an engage? If he got away, well then he burned both SOS and purge most likly

Stun? Snare? Mez?

You act as if they don't have CC options.

Stun vs det9 is over before i fire up speed song.
Snare, either a side style or a second hit in a chain (aka your most likly slammed snared on your own or what not)
Mezz gotta happend before your in melee .MoC is an option but again last short (but atleast long enough to get away)

Mon 20 May 2019 2:24 PM by lurker

As a minstrel it makes me smile how angry people get about it when I kite...

Honestly, 1v1 vs a BM/Zerk for example. They are just spamming /rude all the time. Would they do that vs a caster who kites?
Is the expectation that because you can wield a weapon you should just charge in and be a free kill for a melee class that can actually DPS?
Not sure what people get so upset about? I mean... surely everybody should play to their classes strengths?

I could turn and hit a equivalent realm rank BM/Zerk 1v1 once I have him down to 30% health and I would still expect to lose.

Mon 20 May 2019 2:33 PM by lurker

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:53 AM
Chain on a class with stealth is stupid, Bards don’t even have chain/scale lol.

Whats a bard got to do with anything? Because they both hold instruments they should be equivalent classes?
Bard = primary CC class. So compare them with Sorcs & Healers if anything. But that's not how daoc works.

Mon 20 May 2019 5:00 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 1:08 PM
Stun vs det9 is over before i fire up speed song.
Snare, either a side style or a second hit in a chain (aka your most likly slammed snared on your own or what not)
Mezz gotta happend before your in melee .MoC is an option but again last short (but atleast long enough to get away)

You have stealth, if you're picking a fight against tanks, you're picking the wrong fight. If you're not stealthed because you have a pet, and find yourself engaging a tank, you're fighting wrong - there is no reason to be in close when you can have your pet on them and you can kite and DD on cooldown.

Mon 20 May 2019 5:04 PM by teiloh

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 11:53 AM
Chain on a class with stealth is stupid, Bards don’t even have chain/scale lol.

Studded on a buffing speed class with heals is stupid, Mentalists don't even have studded lol.

Tue 21 May 2019 6:47 AM by Lillebror

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 5:00 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Mon 20 May 2019 1:08 PM
Stun vs det9 is over before i fire up speed song.
Snare, either a side style or a second hit in a chain (aka your most likly slammed snared on your own or what not)
Mezz gotta happend before your in melee .MoC is an option but again last short (but atleast long enough to get away)

You have stealth, if you're picking a fight against tanks, you're picking the wrong fight. If you're not stealthed because you have a pet, and find yourself engaging a tank, you're fighting wrong - there is no reason to be in close when you can have your pet on them and you can kite and DD on cooldown.

It sounds like you played Phoenix rvr a lot, i know i can kite (some classes are rough) i know i cant stand toe to toe with anything in melee, heck my Sorc is close to out melee me with his staff if i dont use DD's. I got a few off these endless kite kills but 99/100 times you get added on before its over, or opponent run and hide into a mile gate or other option that make it impossible to not end in melee. all this im ok with, Minstrel is a good class, and the biggest strength of the class is thats its versatile.

Mon 27 May 2019 7:32 PM by tweedledumb99

Manoush has beat me legit weapon to weapon by using positioning, good combat skills, run through, timing mez and purge and stun and snare, with pet and without. Larp beat me the other day without (much) kiting.

It's possible to kill heavy tanks as a minstrel without relying on kite dd-ing someone to death, you just need to be skilled and willing to get killed in order to learn, be challenged get better.

Mon 27 May 2019 8:37 PM by Pbuck

Good hero with IP+Moose will require IP+ sos fa2 reset and good pet to beat in melee and there is another requirement to not get added or having milegates/ keeps/pk nearby to escape.Also while it doesn't happen often, a really good hero will hit for 300-400 per swing, while blocking parrying a lot of hits . I'm convinced this is impossible for a minstrel to deal with in melee even with all the RAs available and having the best pets. Luckily no such heroes seem to be around ( one that I would not engage in melee even with all my tools up). Skalds seem to be the same story for minstrel, in the sense that a minstrel can do very little vs a perfect solo dwarf skald, since every attack on the skald will do very little dmg( pet + melee hits+ dds).Again its fortunate that there are very few skalds that fit that category.

Tue 28 May 2019 7:25 AM by Sepplord

tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 7:32 PM
Manoush has beat me legit weapon to weapon by using positioning, good combat skills, run through, timing mez and purge and stun and snare, with pet and without. Larp beat me the other day without (much) kiting.

It's possible to kill heavy tanks as a minstrel without relying on kite dd-ing someone to death, you just need to be skilled and willing to get killed in order to learn, be challenged get better.

why is something as run through considered more "legit" than kite-DDing?

I am quite sure that hitting positionals and interuppting casts with runthrough were no balance decisions but problems they couldn't technically solve back then.

Tue 28 May 2019 1:27 PM by tweedledumb99

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:25 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 7:32 PM
Manoush has beat me legit weapon to weapon by using positioning, good combat skills, run through, timing mez and purge and stun and snare, with pet and without. Larp beat me the other day without (much) kiting.

It's possible to kill heavy tanks as a minstrel without relying on kite dd-ing someone to death, you just need to be skilled and willing to get killed in order to learn, be challenged get better.

why is something as run through considered more "legit" than kite-DDing?

I am quite sure that hitting positionals and interuppting casts with runthrough were no balance decisions but problems they couldn't technically solve back then.

1. Run through can be countered*, solo, by a melee who must fight without speed and without ranged attacks. Kite DD cannot.

2. Positionals were an on-purpose design decision, not an exploit made necessary by tech limitations. That's why positional styles exist. They take skill to pull off and can be countered through player skill, by any player using a mouse to turn, and on any class.

*For anyone (not @Sepp specifically) who thinks they're very clever: counter means "you can do something against this and win the fight yourself", i.e. asking for help in region from FG's, or anti-kiting them to keep guards is not counter-play for kite-dd'ing.

Tue 28 May 2019 1:45 PM by Sepplord

tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 1:27 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 28 May 2019 7:25 AM
tweedledumb99 wrote: ↑
Mon 27 May 2019 7:32 PM
Manoush has beat me legit weapon to weapon by using positioning, good combat skills, run through, timing mez and purge and stun and snare, with pet and without. Larp beat me the other day without (much) kiting.

It's possible to kill heavy tanks as a minstrel without relying on kite dd-ing someone to death, you just need to be skilled and willing to get killed in order to learn, be challenged get better.

why is something as run through considered more "legit" than kite-DDing?

I am quite sure that hitting positionals and interuppting casts with runthrough were no balance decisions but problems they couldn't technically solve back then.

1. Run through can be countered*, solo, by a melee who must fight without speed and without ranged attacks. Kite DD cannot.

2. Positionals were an on-purpose design decision, not an exploit made necessary by tech limitations. That's why positional styles exist. They take skill to pull off and can be countered through player skill, by any player using a mouse to turn, and on any class.

*For anyone (not @Sepp specifically) who thinks they're very clever: counter means "you can do something against this and win the fight yourself", i.e. asking for help in region from FG's, or anti-kiting them to keep guards is not counter-play for kite-dd'ing.

ok, understand point1, thanks for the explanation...i can get behind what you meant with legit there.

2. Your argument is that positionals exist, and that is proof that it was always intended to use them 1vs1 on targets facing each other? I still disagree, and imo that's a pretty weak argument. Positionals exist to reward more complicated gameplay, using positionals onto stunned targets requires you to move to specific positions. Backsnare allow you to snare a target running from you, but you can't preemptively snare from front....etc...

Wildly strafing around someone/having an epileptic attack on top of an enemy to create "target is out of sight"-message, or running through someone that is facing you to sidestyle him because of lag is a technical limitation, further abused by people intentionally slowing their internet to have it easier to do. For me it seem pretty clear that it wasn't intended but it never was a huge problem and when it became one it was too widespread to forbid. Combined with a nightmare to enforce it was simply embraced and is now a feature for many people. I know this will never change or be considered exploiting by the majority but whenever i see someone heavily doing it i must almost laugh because it is just so ridicolous and looks retarded. Have only met one though that wasn't easily shut-down with a bit of backpeddling and mouselooking.