Will every single player have their own alchemist?

During a discussion about how worthless paladins are in 8 man because their entire class was replaced by endurance pots, I guess they inference is that everyone will have access to barrels and barrels of endurance pots.

I thought to myself it might be fun to get some lvl 20 mana replenishment pots and asked someone to make me some in trade. Dead silence. I know there is no housing and I know this is beta, but I realized if I wanted lvl 20 replenishment pots that I had to make my own alchemist.

I'm not going to do it because im probably going to delete this toon. It is beta, I reported stuff, I will probably go screw around with another class.

Which brings me back to the main points:

1. Will everyone have an alchemist.
2. Are self buffing classes like friar for example completely worthless (this was another point in the discussion people had)
3. Will end buff classes always be unwelcome (paladin at least).
4. Will everyone have to use pots to be competitive?

Edit, someone did make me some pots. Thank you.

Thoughts?

Mon 30 Jul 2018 3:50 PM by Magesty

Most competitive players will have their own alchemist, or at least a guild alchemist. If not there will be plenty available on housing.

Self buffing classes will be significantly weaker. This was not a concern when potions were originally released as everyone used bots.

Paladin will be welcome in PvE. No reason for them in RvR.

Sadly, everyone has to use stat buff potions to be competitive. It is just an extra mechanic that really adds nothing, but everyone has to use and will use. I’m not excited about it, and frankly am surprised people are so eager to have them in the game.

Mon 30 Jul 2018 3:58 PM by Rabbitstew

1. Everyone will either make an alchemist or have one on hand, possibly a guild's alchemist.
2. Self-buffing classes aren't worthless but they are weaker if you're fully loaded with pots/charges. (Side note: Friar needs some kind of RvR-worthy buff, imho)
3. Albion's Endo class will be the only one unwelcome in RvR, because the other realms have alternate uses for their classes other than Endo.
4. To be "competitive" or "optimal", yes, you will have to use pots or item charges. Wherther it's power, endo, health, or buff pots, people will use them to gain an advantage.

Mon 30 Jul 2018 3:59 PM by relvinian

With 10 charges each pot will last a long time.

And if everyone needs pots, then perhaps that will be a huge money making thing.

But what do you do with money here? Make and buy pots?

One more question:

Are necros supposed to be able to use pots in shade form? What kind of pots?

Mon 30 Jul 2018 4:40 PM by Seigmoraig

The main reason you can't find an alchemist for the potions is because it's beta and there is no CM to buy from. If you really want those you could craft them yourself, the crafting speed for everything is at 1 second and you can set up craftque for easy leveling
Also there is no way the other realm's endo class are going to be unplayed, we are talking about shaman and bard here, 2 of the most popular classes.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 1:14 AM by Shadanwolf

I don't think most will take the time.Money is easy to come by so far.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 6:46 AM by Topenga

Keep in mind it's beta and the craft timer is set to 1s for testing purposes.
So it will take some time to become a legendary crafter even with buy and queue aid in effect.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 6:55 AM by Der_Eisbaer

Getting your Alchemist ready for making buff pots (except the supreme pots) and level 3 regeneration pots takes roughly 700 gold.

As you don't need to spend any money on equipment during leveling you can do this fairly easy.

I managed it is with my Nightshade at about lvl 25.

Therefore because of the comparably low hurdle you need to overcome in order to achieve buff pot making, plus /craftqueue, plus EVERYBODY can be an Alchemist I do not see any reason not to be an Alchemist with at least all of my main chars, and I believe that many other players have drawn the same conclusion.

So that is why you, Relvinian, received zero reaction to your question in regards to potions.

Wed 1 Aug 2018 11:54 PM by Frigzy

Topenga wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Aug 2018 6:46 AM
Keep in mind it's beta and the craft timer is set to 1s for testing purposes.
So it will take some time to become a legendary crafter even with buy and queue aid in effect.

Please for the love of god keep it this way. The crafting timesink is one of the most horrid ones out there. I've done countless Legendaries over the releases of freeshards and I can't do all that bullshit again. Let alone on all three realms.

The thing is, IF you make it so that buffs and pots are part of the new meta, simply maximize their accesibility for all players. Otherwise you're simply catering to the ones with more time on their hands, making casual RvR even less worthwhile in the long run.

Thu 2 Aug 2018 1:51 AM by Zansobar

I think most everyone will have an alchemist or an alchemist in their guild. It will be like that for pretty much all professions in my opinion. I mean what else will you use money for if not to put into crafting? All the high level items will be bought with Phoenix Feathers from merchants.

Thu 2 Aug 2018 6:46 AM by Platonius

I think everyone or at least most of the people will have a alchemist. IF they keep the craft times at reasonable rates (maybe 5s max at 1k) then it is reasonably accessible to everyone, including players who do not put a lot of time into the game. There still will be players who want to buy crafter services as they don't want to invest the time, but question is, what do you need to gold for besides crafting with the feather system implemented.

IF crafting times are set like they where in the old days (rally long), then i feel that not a lot of people will put the time in to craft, even with the craft queue. At 900+ it would take like 15min to complete one inventory ??

I guess we will have to see, when Phoenix goes live.

Sat 4 Aug 2018 10:43 AM by Warjon

Not liking the idea that pots are taking over the game and affecting buffing classes. As was said now I need to craft. smh

Sat 4 Aug 2018 2:45 PM by Tyton

Warjon wrote: ↑
Sat 4 Aug 2018 10:43 AM
Not liking the idea that pots are taking over the game and affecting buffing classes. As was said now I need to craft. smh

I have to agree with the sentiment here.

Sat 4 Aug 2018 3:08 PM by Quik

I still think all pots need to be reduced a step in effectiveness and this is coming from someone who solos a lot.

Sun 5 Aug 2018 1:47 PM by Laadna

Magesty wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Jul 2018 3:50 PM
Sadly, everyone has to use stat buff potions to be competitive. It is just an extra mechanic that really adds nothing, but everyone has to use and will use. I’m not excited about it, and frankly am surprised people are so eager to have them in the game.

I do not see the point of forbidding buffbots and allowing the exact same game mechanics (being stronger than the other dude) by a different but totally affordable mean. If alchemy replaces buffbots, then your game is full of buffbots. Except they are not parked in keeps, they are in everyone's inventory. Both stats/hast buff potions and endurance regen potions are damageable and shouldn't be used for solo/smallman RvR.

Seigmoraig wrote: ↑
Mon 30 Jul 2018 4:40 PM
The main reason you can't find an alchemist for the potions is because it's beta and there is no CM to buy from.

What about the /trade channel everybody can read ? I'm pretty sure OP was talking about this very channel.

Sun 5 Aug 2018 4:05 PM by Quik

Laadna wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Aug 2018 1:47 PM
What about the /trade channel everybody can read ? I'm pretty sure OP was talking about this very channel.

/trade only works to connecting zones. If you are in your capital that is the only zone that can see /trade.

Hopefully this gets fixed but not sure its actually broken.

/trade should be seen everywhere no matter where you are other wise it is pointless.

Sun 5 Aug 2018 6:35 PM by heardstheword

Laadna wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Aug 2018 1:47 PM
I do not see the point of forbidding buffbots and allowing the exact same game mechanics (being stronger than the other dude) by a different but totally affordable mean. If alchemy replaces buffbots, then your game is full of buffbots. Except they are not parked in keeps, they are in everyone's inventory. Both stats/hast buff potions and endurance regen potions are damageable and shouldn't be used for solo/smallman RvR.

With buffbots, a buff classes are not necessary for a full group to function. Mid can drop shaman and pull in a different class.

With pots, all groups still run with a shaman rather than using pots, but now solo/smallman are able to compete.

Mon 6 Aug 2018 7:53 AM by Laadna

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Aug 2018 6:35 PM
With pots, all groups still run with a shaman rather than using pots, but now solo/smallman are able to compete.

Compete with who ? A full group ? No way. Other smallman with pots ? Sure. And they run over smallman without pots. What a change : smallman/solo now have to level an alchemist or pay for one ! It is called arms race.

Mon 6 Aug 2018 12:10 PM by heardstheword

Laadna wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Aug 2018 7:53 AM
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Aug 2018 6:35 PM
With pots, all groups still run with a shaman rather than using pots, but now solo/smallman are able to compete.
Compete with who ? A full group ? No way. Other smallman with pots ? Sure. And they run over smallman without pots. What a change : smallman/solo now have to level an alchemist or pay for one ! It is called arms race.

Buff Classes are no longer a requirment for smallmen. No need to be Skald -> Healer -> Shaman. At least now you can change the buff slot out with someone else. You aren't at a significant disadvantage. A disadvantage, yes, but not a crazy one that makes you lose 100% of the time.

I mean, it varies. For speed, hibs would still roll with a bard

Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:19 PM by Horus

I don't think Potions should exist at all (there, I said it)

Classes were balanced based on some classes having self buffs and some not. If all of the sudden you give exceeding easy access to buffs on non-buff classes (ie cheap multicharge potions) you are throwing the whole balance out of whack. At least 1 charge/pot, no barrels, was a bit of a deterrent. Here it is just going to be people running full potion buffed all the time.

For example the Pathfinding buff line for rangers. One of the nice things about the class was the self buffs. With OPed pots it makes the entire spec line almost worthless..

Probably an unpopular opinion....but there it i

Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:34 PM by heardstheword

Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:19 PM
For example the Pathfinding buff line for rangers. One of the nice things about the class was the self buffs. With OPed pots it makes the entire spec line almost worthless..

The self buffs are still better. Final DA is +9.X damage, and there isn't a pot for damage add. Last Dex/Qui is +72, and I don't think the pots go nearly that high.

Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:57 PM by rubaduck

I am currently doing armorsmith, but my second will most def be an alchemist. It's hard to speak for everyone else but in my case the answer is yes.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 5:30 AM by jhaerik

I just see the pop going the same way as Uthgarde... FAST.

No one actually enjoys charge/pot timers and it adds nothing to the game but annoyance.

There is a reason people used buffbots.. and it wasn't just to be OP... it's because RvR players hate spending 1/3 of their day every day farming mats, crafting, and chugging potions.

I don't think any server without buffbots will ever be successful.

That aside I think I'm going to make a fulltime buffbot toon with the following goals.... 1-50 without ever casting a non buff spell... and then sit around selling spec buffs to soloers. Make money while playing other games and fucking with server solo balance lol. Sounds fun. While multi box buffbotting won't be a thing I assure you people are still going to sell buffs while they mostly afk to people to make cash. So at the end of the day... it's more annoying than anything.

Also bet some 8 mans out there would pay well for the extra benefit of spec buffs from an out of group buffer in a safe location...

If anyone wants to work out an agreement.. let me know.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 7:13 AM by Yint

You do realize there is a range on conc buffs here. Sooo your plan is basically to group people as a high enhance spec support and play as a team with them. That is the intention of not having buff bots.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 7:38 AM by jhaerik

Oh well I won't even waste my time playing on this server then.

1.65 my ass. Just another sad attempt at classic ruined by devs that couldn't make it outside of piracy

Seriously how fucking hard is it to make a 1.65 sever and leave your opinions out of shit?

1.65 had buff bots and it sure as fuck didn't have conc buff ranges.

Rip another daoc server. I'm sure there will be yet another one in a year or two... maybe they'll get that one right.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 8:45 AM by Druth

Seems to me that people in general like the no buff-bot policy, I do as well.

That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy having 2 bot-accounts on Live, it was tons of fun, but it was not till after 1.65 that Mythic started balancing the game around it.
It was not untill 1.69 that buff shears came into play, and between this and 1.77 (where range was introduced, which was later removed again) they buffed selfbuffer classes buffs.

So no, while many might have used buff-bots around 1.65, the game was not balanced around it.

I personally learned about buff-bots (and got the first one myself, starting with healer because I thought pom was super important...) around 1.52 when I started playing Dark spec sm. And it was my experience that even when ToA was launched the majority did not have a Buff-bot. Maybe the majority of RvR active, and especially soloers did have one, but not the majority of players.

Seems to me Mythic did become aware of bots being an issue around ToA, especially making the gap between casual and hard-core a lot wider, but it took them many patches to even figure out a possible solution. And the reason for the delay is likely found in the extra revenue.

Freeshards that base game around 1.65 know about the problems bots introduce (likely also the benefits, and there are undeniably benefits to), but more important (I think) they know the bad taste buff-bots left in the mouth of casual players.
Internally (externally there are many other factors) ToA and buff-bots are most often atributed why DaoC died out, with both being a symbol of the two groups of players, those who had (ML/Artifacts/Bots) and those who had not (no time to sit 8 hours to complete ML3 and no bot).

The same problems might not even arise with the introduction of buff-bots today, but they remain a symbol of why (together with ToA) people stopped playing back then.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 11:23 AM by Hanshi

I tend to agree with Jhaerik. This game is 1.65 in real estate only. Basically play the way WE want you play. Play what we want you to play. You can cheat just dont use buff bots. Craftque is just a cheat made legal. Many things on this server are an improvement over Uthgard. But many are the devs way to control how and what you can can play effectively. Yeah i know the old excuse..its a beta . blah blah blah. As for pots..rather they just didnt exist. Same with Feathers/eggs.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 3:59 PM by Horus

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:34 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:19 PM
For example the Pathfinding buff line for rangers. One of the nice things about the class was the self buffs. With OPed pots it makes the entire spec line almost worthless..

The self buffs are still better. Final DA is +9.X damage, and there isn't a pot for damage add. Last Dex/Qui is +72, and I don't think the pots go nearly that high.

Last dex/quick in PF is +48, not 72. Just clarifying...

Wed 29 Aug 2018 4:01 PM by heardstheword

Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 3:59 PM
Last dex/quick in PF is +48, not 72. Just clarifying...

You're right, my bad. I was thinking about buff classes.

Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:19 PM by Zansobar

Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 3:59 PM
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:34 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:19 PM
For example the Pathfinding buff line for rangers. One of the nice things about the class was the self buffs. With OPed pots it makes the entire spec line almost worthless..

The self buffs are still better. Final DA is +9.X damage, and there isn't a pot for damage add. Last Dex/Qui is +72, and I don't think the pots go nearly that high.

Last dex/quick in PF is +48, not 72. Just clarifying...

With the 1.25 bonus it buffs +60 not +48, however.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 12:22 AM by Falken

Based on the current trend it would seem that people will just use endo pot/barrel for endo to free up conc or replace the class that is required for endo all together, you won't be required to have an alch to do this, but then you will be paying for them or relying on a guild mate to do it for you. Either way endo pot/barrel and power pot/barrels will be a basic requirement (endo for all power for relevant classes ofc). It never hurts to have one charge of something to help relieve conc of buffers when needed.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 3:39 AM by Weezull

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 9:19 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Aug 2018 3:59 PM
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:34 PM
The self buffs are still better. Final DA is +9.X damage, and there isn't a pot for damage add. Last Dex/Qui is +72, and I don't think the pots go nearly that high.

Last dex/quick in PF is +48, not 72. Just clarifying...

With the 1.25 bonus it buffs +60 not +48, however.

Still nowhere near worth getting when you can drink a pot for 40 dex/qui and spend all those skill points in everything else. What's the point of banning buffbots if you're going to have everybody run around almost full buffed with pots anyway?

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:48 AM by Elfenblut

Personally i regret most, that with all the buff pots all self-buffing classes are nerved hard. Now you can say they can use the pots as well and spend the specpoints in another line - but that was possible w/o pots as well.
And the classes were built to be balanced (how well it was balanced is another part of the story) when they were created.
Let's take a look at a ranger (I played one on live and live-classic, Uth 1 and Genesis - but not any longer - but its the same for all selfbuffing classes) cause i know that class. When Mythic created the classes, being able to selfbuff was part of the balance. And it was needed for a ranger to be competitive in Fights. Assassin classes have other advantages like poison. And every Assassin can state that this is an essential part of their chance to win a fight. No Assassin would like to lose that advantage like taking away poisons or in the other way giving everyone the possibility to use the highest available poisons without speccing envenom. Just buy (or craft) them and use them.
But that's what the buffpots do to the selfbuffing-classes.

So my opinion would be if there are buffpots in game - make the selfbuffs stack with them. Cause that is the *Class-Balance* that was intended when creating the classes. They have the selfbuffs to counter other weaknesses.

Just my opinion...

Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:22 AM by Druth

I do agree buffpots/charges are bad.

And also agree the solution would be to give selfbuff classes some advantage from using buffpots.
Maybe make it so selfbuffs are 1st tier buffs, while buffs from others/buffpots are 2nd. If you have both the buffpots will give you 50% value or so.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 10:15 PM by Warjon

So now the game on this server will be Dark Alchemists of Camelot. Sigh smh and this is what they think is the best focus for the new server.

Tue 4 Sep 2018 3:20 AM by jhaerik

Pots are just Realm Buffs NPCs with annoying PvE and constantly chugging the damn things attached.

So basically everyone is still running around with a buffbot... but with 4x the aggravation.

Sure as heck seems pointless to me. Might as well just add buff NPC's and let people RvR.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:44 PM by Armsmancer

Could anyone here tell us a story of when they turned down a friar or something because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them?

I'll wait.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:00 PM by Niix

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:44 PM
Could anyone here tell us a story of when they turned down a friar or something because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them?

I'll wait.

I think people are only referring to the 8man groups that are 'elite'... these groups probably won't group random pug players anyway so its kind of a moot point :p

What it does do is enlighten the general population to the fact the class is just not good enough to be in the meta, even though I think it could work in certain groups... tougher than the current meta alb groups tho, just isn't need for a friar.

Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:28 PM by jhaerik

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:44 PM
Could anyone here tell us a story of when they turned down a friar or something because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them?

I'll wait.

I can't remember anyone ever grouping friars outside of dragon raids...

So yeh LOTS.

Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:21 AM by Armsmancer

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:28 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:44 PM
Could anyone here tell us a story of when they turned down a friar or something because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them?

I'll wait.

I can't remember anyone ever grouping friars outside of dragon raids...

So yeh LOTS.

Try to stay in context like my questions asks. If you are confused, the context is not just not grouping friars, it is not grouping friars because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them

Reading comprehension ya'll use it

Thu 13 Sep 2018 3:43 PM by relvinian

Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:21 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:28 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 9:44 PM
Could anyone here tell us a story of when they turned down a friar or something because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them?

I'll wait.

I can't remember anyone ever grouping friars outside of dragon raids...

So yeh LOTS.

Try to stay in context like my questions asks. If you are confused, the context is not just not grouping friars, it is not grouping friars because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them

Reading comprehension ya'll use it

Keyboard warrior, plz go outside and stop being so rude to everyone. Just because the mods tolerate this nonsense here does not mean that the players should have to be abused by it.

Thu 13 Sep 2018 3:45 PM by relvinian

I found a nice person to make me some combined forces barrels with my feathers and so forth.

Took him like 5 minutes to make me 2 barrels and cost me 1500 feathers and 500 gold.

This brings me back to my original question-- will everyone have their own alchemist?

I will either have one or I will make a buddy of one.

What will be the price on the cm on live for a barrel? 1-2 plat im guessing.

But rather than that, I would really prefer to be able to visit an npc buffer and get buffs which, might be sleightly lower than barrels, and not able to be put on in cbt or if you die, but I just don't want to have to farm feathers, buy pots, click buttons, on and on. Or, if I choose to run without pots, be complete food for the VAST majority of solo players who will have everything.

Thu 13 Sep 2018 5:52 PM by Armsmancer

relvinian wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Sep 2018 3:43 PM
Armsmancer wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Sep 2018 12:21 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Sep 2018 11:28 PM
I can't remember anyone ever grouping friars outside of dragon raids...

So yeh LOTS.

Try to stay in context like my questions asks. If you are confused, the context is not just not grouping friars, it is not grouping friars because the group insisted that since they have pots they don't need them

Reading comprehension ya'll use it

Keyboard warrior, plz go outside and stop being so rude to everyone. Just because the mods tolerate this nonsense here does not mean that the players should have to be abused by it.

This is what happens when someone is exposed and can no longer provide an argument, they turn to shaming/calling for help from others. HELP THE OTHER DEBATER GOTS ME IN A CORNER AND I GOT NOTHING LEFT, LETS TONE POLICE HIM INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO THE DIRECT CHALLENGE THAT HAS BEEN OPEN FOR 3 WEEKS WITH NO EVIDENCE BUT I STILL WANNA WALK AROUND SAYING THE THINGS I CAN'T BACK UP AND HE'S CALLING ME OUT ON IT, HELP ME ADMINS YOU'RE MY ONLY HOPE, STOP HIM FROM "ABUSING" ME BY ASKING FOR FACTS AND TO STAY IN CONTEXT OF THE DEBATE