Interesting Spec for Ranger Post-Buff Change

Messing around mind you on my Shar 5L7 ranger. Was disappointed to see I couldn't break 300 str any more with the buff pot change, so decided to go full retard and spec 50 PF, 44 Blade, 35 St, 15 Bow and 6 CD.

Testing 15 bow on 26% dummies over 25 shots. 410 was repeatable crit shot (lvl 5) and 202 repeatable standard shot. Using all red PF buffs plus new combined forces, along Aug Str 6, Aug Qui 3, IP3 and Purge 2 am able to break 301 str, 304 Dex, 250 Quick and 244 Con. 1638 hit points obvs on templated toon.

Will be interesting to see how lousy 15 bow is and will need to alter my play style to compensate.

Anyone else come up with a wacky, zany spec?

Fri 10 May 2019 9:24 PM by Prymer

You can have:

40pf
35bow
39blades
35stealth
19CD

I'm gonna start there.

Sat 11 May 2019 9:58 AM by Auranyte

Try squeezing in Mastery of Arcane into your RA build. It works with both self buffs and the pots. It won't make a huge difference, but might allow you to lower PF and still get somewhere close to what you want.

Sat 11 May 2019 11:42 AM by Cadebrennus

The fact that Ranger players (and to a lesser extent, Hunter/Scout players) have to jump through hoops with every new patch just to stay viable says a lot about the Phoenix Devs attitude towards Rangers and Archers.

Sat 11 May 2019 12:51 PM by Dominus

Cad, yes agree. This last change cost me 8k feathers plus a few more plat to buy a third respec. I did try MoArc but it was doing really weird things to my stats (like lowering dex) so I backed out of that for now.

A free realm/skill stone would have been the thing to do for self buffing classes. A lot of feathers and plat spent yesterday.

Sat 11 May 2019 12:53 PM by dbeattie71

Dominus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 8:34 PM
Messing around mind you on my Shar 5L7 ranger. Was disappointed to see I couldn't break 300 str any more with the buff pot change, so decided to go full retard and spec 50 PF, 44 Blade, 35 St, 15 Bow and 6 CD.

Testing 15 bow on 26% dummies over 25 shots. 410 was repeatable crit shot (lvl 5) and 202 repeatable standard shot. Using all red PF buffs plus new combined forces, along Aug Str 6, Aug Qui 3, IP3 and Purge 2 am able to break 301 str, 304 Dex, 250 Quick and 244 Con. 1638 hit points obvs on templated toon.

Will be interesting to see how lousy 15 bow is and will need to alter my play style to compensate.

Anyone else come up with a wacky, zany spec?

I’ve been 50PF for a while 😀

Sat 11 May 2019 4:16 PM by Cadebrennus

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 12:53 PM
Dominus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 8:34 PM
Messing around mind you on my Shar 5L7 ranger. Was disappointed to see I couldn't break 300 str any more with the buff pot change, so decided to go full retard and spec 50 PF, 44 Blade, 35 St, 15 Bow and 6 CD.

Testing 15 bow on 26% dummies over 25 shots. 410 was repeatable crit shot (lvl 5) and 202 repeatable standard shot. Using all red PF buffs plus new combined forces, along Aug Str 6, Aug Qui 3, IP3 and Purge 2 am able to break 301 str, 304 Dex, 250 Quick and 244 Con. 1638 hit points obvs on templated toon.

Will be interesting to see how lousy 15 bow is and will need to alter my play style to compensate.

Anyone else come up with a wacky, zany spec?

I’ve been 50PF for a while 😀

Ya but your total strength is lower now.

Sat 11 May 2019 4:36 PM by dbeattie71

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 4:16 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 12:53 PM
Dominus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 8:34 PM
Messing around mind you on my Shar 5L7 ranger. Was disappointed to see I couldn't break 300 str any more with the buff pot change, so decided to go full retard and spec 50 PF, 44 Blade, 35 St, 15 Bow and 6 CD.

Testing 15 bow on 26% dummies over 25 shots. 410 was repeatable crit shot (lvl 5) and 202 repeatable standard shot. Using all red PF buffs plus new combined forces, along Aug Str 6, Aug Qui 3, IP3 and Purge 2 am able to break 301 str, 304 Dex, 250 Quick and 244 Con. 1638 hit points obvs on templated toon.

Will be interesting to see how lousy 15 bow is and will need to alter my play style to compensate.

Anyone else come up with a wacky, zany spec?

I’ve been 50PF for a while 😀

Ya but your total strength is lower now.

Yeah, -25.

Sat 11 May 2019 6:15 PM by Cadebrennus

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 4:36 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 4:16 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 12:53 PM
I’ve been 50PF for a while 😀

Ya but your total strength is lower now.

Yeah, -25.

Sat 11 May 2019 11:00 PM by paul_g

No need for PF or Aug RA..mastery of arcane is way better. not as a good as pre charge nerf but still better points spent in CD >PF - Aug STR<MOA

Sun 12 May 2019 8:16 AM by Prymer

paul_g wrote: ↑
Sat 11 May 2019 11:00 PM
No need for PF or Aug RA..mastery of arcane is way better. not as a good as pre charge nerf but still better points spent in CD >PF - Aug STR<MOA

Isn't mastery of arcane 8 around the same d/q as 40of buff? Doesn't seem way better.

Maybe at high rr where 27 points isn't needed for purge and IP. But then isn't MoA just as good on top of 40pf? Adding 25% to the 70+ d/q?

Tue 14 May 2019 3:00 AM by qq6

Tough one with low RR, but i run 42 pf + mota 6 + aug str 4 atm. Stats are lower than before, but i got to keep my spec, overall i sit at 298 str / 264 con / 1337 weap skill / 299 d / 239 q / 1760hp. I tried to make it work with 50 pf, but it just didnt work out for me, cd is powerful :X, and i like rapid fire.

42 pf / 35 bow / 39 blades / 31 stealth / 21 cd.
/////////////
If you can find the RA points i'd go with 40 pf / 35 bow / 39 blades / 35 stealth / 19 cd ... or whatever ur RR allows to change stealth > cd to

Tue 14 May 2019 10:12 AM by inoeth

imo high cd spec > pf

land the offhand with every hit is superior over 10 more dmg with dmg add or 10 more str

my spec atm 27 bow 36 stealth 39 blade 38 cd 31 pf and it works really great!

Tue 14 May 2019 10:20 AM by Prymer

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:12 AM
imo high cd spec > pf

land the offhand with every hit is superior over 10 more dmg with dmg add or 10 more str

my spec atm 27 bow 36 stealth 39 blade 38 cd 31 pf and it works really great!

The difference between 19 and 38 CD is what? 15% more offhand hits?

Phoenix changed the calc from 0.68 to 0.8something iirc?

Tue 14 May 2019 10:37 AM by inoeth

Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:20 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:12 AM
imo high cd spec > pf

land the offhand with every hit is superior over 10 more dmg with dmg add or 10 more str

my spec atm 27 bow 36 stealth 39 blade 38 cd 31 pf and it works really great!

The difference between 19 and 38 CD is what? 15% more offhand hits?

Phoenix changed the calc from 0.68 to 0.8something iirc?

yes including 15% more dmg add dmg and 15% more chance to hit procs

Tue 14 May 2019 10:48 AM by Prymer

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:37 AM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:20 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:12 AM
imo high cd spec > pf

land the offhand with every hit is superior over 10 more dmg with dmg add or 10 more str

my spec atm 27 bow 36 stealth 39 blade 38 cd 31 pf and it works really great!

The difference between 19 and 38 CD is what? 15% more offhand hits?

Phoenix changed the calc from 0.68 to 0.8something iirc?

yes including 15% more dmg add dmg and 15% more chance to hit procs

Vs higher pf. Which is higher dmg add, faster swing speed, more evade, more flat dmg, more af.

So you can't use lines like "land the offhand with every hit" when it's only 15% more.

It's a lot more complex than x is superior to y.

Tue 14 May 2019 11:34 AM by inoeth

Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:48 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:37 AM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:20 AM
The difference between 19 and 38 CD is what? 15% more offhand hits?

Phoenix changed the calc from 0.68 to 0.8something iirc?

yes including 15% more dmg add dmg and 15% more chance to hit procs

Vs higher pf. Which is higher dmg add, faster swing speed, more evade, more flat dmg, more af.

So you can't use lines like "land the offhand with every hit" when it's only 15% more.

It's a lot more complex than x is superior to y.

its 55% vs 71% ....
71% is far more likely to hit, just test it, i barely do not hit with offhand

Tue 14 May 2019 9:59 PM by Prymer

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 11:34 AM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:48 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:37 AM
yes including 15% more dmg add dmg and 15% more chance to hit procs

Vs higher pf. Which is higher dmg add, faster swing speed, more evade, more flat dmg, more af.

So you can't use lines like "land the offhand with every hit" when it's only 15% more.

It's a lot more complex than x is superior to y.

its 55% vs 71% ....
71% is far more likely to hit, just test it, i barely do not hit with offhand

I'm not disputing you hit more often or trying to provoke you. I just prefer cold hard facts, like numbers to back up arguments than phrases like "far more likely" or "I barely do not hit"

When I have chance to play I'll do some testing, until then and without facts, I'll not discount pf.

Tue 14 May 2019 11:07 PM by Emeryc

Played to RR8 on Percival before ToA went live with this spec:

48PF
34Pierce
19CD
35Bow
30Stlth

(never botted)

Wed 15 May 2019 1:50 AM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 11:34 AM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:48 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 14 May 2019 10:37 AM
yes including 15% more dmg add dmg and 15% more chance to hit procs

Vs higher pf. Which is higher dmg add, faster swing speed, more evade, more flat dmg, more af.

So you can't use lines like "land the offhand with every hit" when it's only 15% more.

It's a lot more complex than x is superior to y.

its 55% vs 71% ....
71% is far more likely to hit, just test it, i barely do not hit with offhand

My guess is your offhand doesnt hit about 29% of the time vs 45% of the time :p

As to the 15% more swings that's not true.. It's more like 29% more swings... 29% more chance to proc 29% more dmg add... Because 71/55=1.29 not 1.15

Wed 15 May 2019 10:37 AM by Prymer

I did 2x5min tests. One at 21PF/39CD and one at 40PF/19CD.

21PF/39CD: DPS 40.2
41PF/19CD: DPS 46.8

All unstyled and inclusive of the PF Dmg add. Miss rate for the 21PF/39CD was slightly higher at 18% vs 16%. Under the conditions 40PF is better.

Wed 15 May 2019 10:39 AM by Cadebrennus

Prymer wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 10:37 AM
I did 2x5min tests. One at 21PF/39CD and one at 40PF/19CD.

21PF/39CD: DPS 40.2
41PF/19CD: DPS 46.8

All unstyled and inclusive of the PF Dmg add. Miss rate for the 21PF/39CD was slightly higher at 18% vs 16%. Under the conditions 40PF is better.

I had very nearly the exact same results in beta (accounting for the tiny boost CD/DW/LA recently got). This is why I ran low CD during beta and early launch.

Wed 15 May 2019 10:53 AM by Lillebror

Prymer wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 10:37 AM
I did 2x5min tests. One at 21PF/39CD and one at 40PF/19CD.

21PF/39CD: DPS 40.2
41PF/19CD: DPS 46.8

All unstyled and inclusive of the PF Dmg add. Miss rate for the 21PF/39CD was slightly higher at 18% vs 16%. Under the conditions 40PF is better.

How can 39CD have higher miss rate vs 19CD?

Or is it PF that give higher hit chance? due to the better buffs?
not fair to compare unstyled dps either if you normaly style with any of the CD styles

Wed 15 May 2019 12:13 PM by Crofax

currently im runing

30 stealth
35 bow
44 blades
24cd
36pf

i could go

30 stealth
35 bow
39 blades
31cd
36pf

should i lower blades and higher cd and use cd styles?
or should i still use blade styles even if i lower blades like to 39 ?

Wed 15 May 2019 12:23 PM by Prymer

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 10:53 AM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 10:37 AM
I did 2x5min tests. One at 21PF/39CD and one at 40PF/19CD.

21PF/39CD: DPS 40.2
41PF/19CD: DPS 46.8

All unstyled and inclusive of the PF Dmg add. Miss rate for the 21PF/39CD was slightly higher at 18% vs 16%. Under the conditions 40PF is better.

How can 39CD have higher miss rate vs 19CD?

Or is it PF that give higher hit chance? due to the better buffs?
not fair to compare unstyled dps either if you normaly style with any of the CD styles

overall miss rate. ie amount of swings vs amount of swings that landed. Higher CD swings a lot more times due to the increased swing speed when both weapons swing. But all those extra swings didnt make up the DPS of 40PF.

It is fair to compare unstyled because both specs would use the same blades styles as anytime. It's a fair test comparing extra damage from PF buffs vs extra damage from higher CD.

Wed 15 May 2019 12:26 PM by Prymer

Crofax wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 12:13 PM
currently im runing

30 stealth
35 bow
44 blades
24cd
36pf

i could go

30 stealth
35 bow
39 blades
31cd
36pf

should i lower blades and higher cd and use cd styles?
or should i still use blade styles even if i lower blades like to 39 ?

Lowering blades to 39 is fine. 40pf outperformed higher CD in my test.

I'll be using:

40PF
39Blades
35Stealth
35Bow
19CD

You could drop stealth and/or bow to raise CD and/or PF as you wish.

Wed 15 May 2019 1:56 PM by Lillebror

Did you compare dps with combine forces vs PF buffed?

I guess that 39 follow up blade style is more appealing than useing the CD anytime chain. due to the haste debuff
growth rates was so close to equal that you could say equal

but from cd side chain effect was better and again close to equal growth rate (tiny favor cd).

PF increase these vs combine forces
+3,1 DA
+15 more str
? d/q is it higher than combine forces when casted.

vs

cd 19-39 hit chance. and a offhand hit is how much dps?

You also hit oppoent more often and trigger both yours and opponents procs not sure how on earth you calc that.
but that low DA from 21PF will trigger more often.

Also you get a speed advantege with high CD when you hit with both hands if you run slow MH/ vs fast OH and get towards cap swingspeed (1,5s)

Compareing specs is not even close to A vs B

Wed 15 May 2019 2:08 PM by Cadebrennus

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 10:53 AM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 10:37 AM
I did 2x5min tests. One at 21PF/39CD and one at 40PF/19CD.

21PF/39CD: DPS 40.2
41PF/19CD: DPS 46.8

All unstyled and inclusive of the PF Dmg add. Miss rate for the 21PF/39CD was slightly higher at 18% vs 16%. Under the conditions 40PF is better.

How can 39CD have higher miss rate vs 19CD?

Or is it PF that give higher hit chance? due to the better buffs?
not fair to compare unstyled dps either if you normaly style with any of the CD styles

If someone is using low CD (like me) then they will be using Pierce or Blades styles, so the styled damage of low CD (and using Pierce/Blades) Vs the styled damage of high CD will be the same as far as testing is concerned. Only a moron would try to use styles for DPS in a style line that they have fewer points in.

Wed 15 May 2019 2:24 PM by Lillebror

You compare 2 specs:
21PF/39CD: DPS 40.2
41PF/19CD: DPS 46.8

and your test show your results over here.

Is it from x hits is it in x timeframe or both, hitting with a 3,9 at 1,5 instead of 2 seconds adds up when hitting often, the offhand dps is bonus.

Ofc you use styles from the highest line if your low in one. but first line is high in both (39)
and Charplan show they equal in growth rate but favor blade in effect, im sure melee haste debuff is tipping it in favor of blade styles.
but your dps calculation im not sure you calculate correct. because its so damn many xyz factors that swings it one way or another when it comes to CD/LA/DW
RGN plays a big role and give spikes (how many offhand in a row, offensive/defensive procs, swingspeed)
My experience in DaoC is that spikes kills more ppl than avg dps. ofc with RGN that comes around and come around bit back too.

Wish we could have beta (or test server) back so it was possible to test after changes

Wed 15 May 2019 4:44 PM by Sepphiroth75

I would like to see the tests versus pf 40 with 39 weapon vs 50 pf with 29 weapon.

Is the stat boost better than 10 more weapon spec

Wed 15 May 2019 4:57 PM by jelzinga_EU

You don't really need to run a test, since there is no variance here. Just compare mainhand-damage and offhand-damage with both specs

Then you can adjust your offhand swing % and with maths you can calculate it. If PF dmg-add has variance, it might take a bit more time to find the avg. value - but shouldn't take very long.

Wed 15 May 2019 8:31 PM by inoeth

okay id spend my evening now with building an excell sheet to evaluate different specs in dmg/swing and dmg/second and i found some interesting evidence that my earlier claim (high cd is superior) is wrong.

some information about the excell sheet:
i used melee formulas from talsyra
i assumed a target AF of 635
i assumed neutral dmg type
i assumed 4.1 mh and 3.1 oh
i assumed 17% haste
i needed to correct WS numbers a bit because it did not match with actual number from in game, so there still might be some (slight) incorrect numbers
i fictionally recorded 100 swings inclusive buffs depending on PF spec and OH hit chance (base str / D/Q buff / DMG ADD)
i summed up the swings by MH hits only + combined MH+OH hits
i divded the results into DMG/swing and DMNG/second

results:

(38+rr4 CD / 31 PF) 140 DMG/swing 66,3 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD / 46 PF) 143 DMG/swing 69,4 DMG/second
(39+rr4 CD / 21 PF) 135 DMG/swing 61 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD /41 PF) 136,6 DMG/swing 66,3 DMG/second
(7+rr4 CD /50 PF) 136,6 DMG/swing 68,6 DMG/second

So this is interesting, the dmg add seems to really push the dmg here although you can see there is a crossing where the dmg is similar with either 41 pf and 19 cd or 31 pf and 38 cd.
still the high pf/low cd spec seems to be ahead slightly.

if someone is interested in the excell sheet, i can send it via email but beware: really chaotic document with german and english mixed in it ...... ;D

Wed 15 May 2019 9:01 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 8:31 PM
i assumed 4.1 mh and 3.1 oh

You should really test with 4.2mh 2.5oh because this is optimal, and should point to higher dps with lower CD because you're basically using your oh to boost the dps of your mh.. Meaning OH hits matter even less

Thu 16 May 2019 12:10 AM by Pirhana7

Did Ranger's and Hunter Dex/qui buffs get boosted from the 50/50 range (at lvl 50) to the 75/75 range buffs?

Thu 16 May 2019 6:28 AM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:01 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 8:31 PM
i assumed 4.1 mh and 3.1 oh

You should really test with 4.2mh 2.5oh because this is optimal, and should point to higher dps with lower CD because you're basically using your oh to boost the dps of your mh.. Meaning OH hits matter even less

when i am back home from work i take a look at it

but my experiance with that is that on paper faster offhand might outdamage the slower offhand but in a real fight where you only hit like 8-10 times it doesnt really give you a bonus and therefore you want highest possible dmg/swing

Thu 16 May 2019 8:55 AM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:28 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:01 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 8:31 PM
i assumed 4.1 mh and 3.1 oh

You should really test with 4.2mh 2.5oh because this is optimal, and should point to higher dps with lower CD because you're basically using your oh to boost the dps of your mh.. Meaning OH hits matter even less

when i am back home from work i take a look at it
but my experiance with that is that on paper faster offhand might outdamage the slower offhand but in a real fight where you only hit like 8-10 times it doesnt really give you a bonus and therefore you want highest possible dmg/swing

Exactly. Was it you that did the extensive offhand testing or was it someone else? I can't remember who, but they said that for a CD/DW fast offhand to actually catch up dps-wise with LA (via the haste effect) the player would need about 20 swings due to the randomness of CD/DW even at 50 spec. I've always run the slowest offhand possible when in Alb or Hib. It makes more sense to get a solid offhand swing that is slow as possible when it does swing.

Thu 16 May 2019 10:28 AM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:28 AM
when i am back home from work i take a look at it
but my experiance with that is that on paper faster offhand might outdamage the slower offhand but in a real fight where you only hit like 8-10 times it doesnt really give you a bonus and therefore you want highest possible dmg/swing

I see what youre saying.... But your swing speed before haste/qui goes from 3.6 to 3.3 which is about an 8% difference.. It's not noticeable noticeable exactly but it's making your mainhand swing that much faster as celerity..

So with 4.2MH and 2.5OH your getting 20.2% celerity for your MH
With 4.1MH and 3.1OH you're getting 13.2% celerity for your MH

This won't matter near as much without styles as they are unaffected by the celerity much like nonstyle dmg is unaffected by haste & quickness.. One thing I'm unsure of is dmg add being affected by the celerity effect and the effect on your dps in that regard.. Which will show you the dps difference without having high CD seeings your offhand not swinging often means you want to boost your MH

Thu 16 May 2019 10:39 AM by Sepplord

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 8:55 AM
Exactly. Was it you that did the extensive offhand testing or was it someone else? I can't remember who, but they said that for a CD/DW fast offhand to actually catch up dps-wise with LA (via the haste effect) the player would need about 20 swings due to the randomness of CD/DW even at 50 spec. I've always run the slowest offhand possible when in Alb or Hib. It makes more sense to get a solid offhand swing that is slow as possible when it does swing.

Why "catch up" ???
Average out would make more sense. If RNG gods shine on the DW/CD user, he can 100% swing for the first few swings too...and then they will have superior DPS

or am i misunderstanding what you two are talking about?

Thu 16 May 2019 11:26 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 8:55 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:28 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:01 PM
You should really test with 4.2mh 2.5oh because this is optimal, and should point to higher dps with lower CD because you're basically using your oh to boost the dps of your mh.. Meaning OH hits matter even less

when i am back home from work i take a look at it
but my experiance with that is that on paper faster offhand might outdamage the slower offhand but in a real fight where you only hit like 8-10 times it doesnt really give you a bonus and therefore you want highest possible dmg/swing

Exactly. Was it you that did the extensive offhand testing or was it someone else? I can't remember who, but they said that for a CD/DW fast offhand to actually catch up dps-wise with LA (via the haste effect) the player would need about 20 swings due to the randomness of CD/DW even at 50 spec. I've always run the slowest offhand possible when in Alb or Hib. It makes more sense to get a solid offhand swing that is slow as possible when it does swing.

could be, in fact i have another excell sheet where i compared dw and la...
on my sb i also use a slow (4.0) offhand btw

Thu 16 May 2019 11:28 AM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 10:28 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:28 AM
when i am back home from work i take a look at it
but my experiance with that is that on paper faster offhand might outdamage the slower offhand but in a real fight where you only hit like 8-10 times it doesnt really give you a bonus and therefore you want highest possible dmg/swing

I see what youre saying.... But your swing speed before haste/qui goes from 3.6 to 3.3 which is about an 8% difference.. It's not noticeable noticeable exactly but it's making your mainhand swing that much faster as celerity..

So with 4.2MH and 2.5OH your getting 20.2% celerity for your MH
With 4.1MH and 3.1OH you're getting 13.2% celerity for your MH

This won't matter near as much without styles as they are unaffected by the celerity much like nonstyle dmg is unaffected by haste & quickness.. One thing I'm unsure of is dmg add being affected by the celerity effect and the effect on your dps in that regard.. Which will show you the dps difference without having high CD seeings your offhand not swinging often means you want to boost your MH

btw the reason for 4.1 mainhand is d/q debuff on it

but i also carry a 4.2 on my back

Thu 16 May 2019 11:32 AM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 11:28 AM
btw the reason for 4.1 mainhand is d/q debuff on it but i also carry a 4.2 on my back

Gotcha! Makes sense.. I am leveling up my ranger.. Shar with 9 points qui** in char creation will reach cap so I'm pretty excited to try it out.. I wanna find a nice rog with lifetap proc

Thu 16 May 2019 11:45 AM by Evoenia

At the moment (rank 6) I am running:

48 PF
45 Archery
34 Stealth
12 Blade
18 CD

Basically I play as a scout with side stun and side snare to kite. Definetely a terrible spec in melee, but I find it really enjoyable and fitting to my play style

Thu 16 May 2019 11:48 AM by Prymer

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 2:24 PM
You compare 2 specs:
21PF/39CD: DPS 40.2
41PF/19CD: DPS 46.8

and your test show your results over here.

Is it from x hits is it in x timeframe or both, hitting with a 3,9 at 1,5 instead of 2 seconds adds up when hitting often, the offhand dps is bonus.

Ofc you use styles from the highest line if your low in one. but first line is high in both (39)
and Charplan show they equal in growth rate but favor blade in effect, im sure melee haste debuff is tipping it in favor of blade styles.
but your dps calculation im not sure you calculate correct. because its so damn many xyz factors that swings it one way or another when it comes to CD/LA/DW
RGN plays a big role and give spikes (how many offhand in a row, offensive/defensive procs, swingspeed)
My experience in DaoC is that spikes kills more ppl than avg dps. ofc with RGN that comes around and come around bit back too.

Wish we could have beta (or test server) back so it was possible to test after changes

When I state that i have done 2x5min tests. that answers your question. You could take the time to read all the info if you are then going to disprove my test without any testing of your own.

Both specs were full combined forces and then pf buffs on top if they are good enough to overwrite the pot.

I used no style. Both would of used the lvl39 blade chain but then misses are more damaging to the numbers, especially on such a short test. Also both specs were 39blade so damage would of been the same.

40pf/19CD swings 193times. 21PF/39CD swings 217 in those 4mins.

The Parser i used calculates the DPS.

Yes RNG plays a part, hence the 5mins swinging at the dummy. you could do an hour but im not gonna waste my time when it was clear after 5mins that 40pf outperforms 39cd.

I don't know what you are wanting from me. I provide the numbers as a fact. They are the results of a test in a bubble. If you arn't happy then spec how you like.

Thu 16 May 2019 1:27 PM by Lillebror

Prymer wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 11:48 AM
40pf/19CD swings 193times. 21PF/39CD swings 217 in those 4mins.

Yes RNG plays a part, hence the 5mins swinging at the dummy. you could do an hour but im not gonna waste my time when it was clear after 5mins that 40pf outperforms 39cd.

Aint your dps comparing for offhand only?
Your mh dps aint the same, your mh hit 24 more times too with your CD spec (aka 1MH hit every 10sec).
I think that 1 high CD mh swing cover for a few lower offhand hits+ and add the fights you win due to RGN due to many duel hits in a row, if you only singel hit (god forbid) you lose out 6 offhand dps

What i read from your testing is that you should pop charge DA in fights as thats the biggest factor and just keep high CD. make you lose a heal charge but your more often than not diseased anyway.

My only class that i can test my self is only 30 still. but i will do same as soon as im 50 due to 24h played free respec.
atm im 100% sure i will play 50DW Inf if it ever get to 50.

Thu 16 May 2019 2:45 PM by Prymer

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 1:27 PM
Prymer wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 11:48 AM
40pf/19CD swings 193times. 21PF/39CD swings 217 in those 4mins.

Yes RNG plays a part, hence the 5mins swinging at the dummy. you could do an hour but im not gonna waste my time when it was clear after 5mins that 40pf outperforms 39cd.

Aint your dps comparing for offhand only?
Your mh dps aint the same, your mh hit 24 more times too with your CD spec (aka 1MH hit every 10sec).
I think that 1 high CD mh swing cover for a few lower offhand hits+ and add the fights you win due to RGN due to many duel hits in a row, if you only singel hit (god forbid) you lose out 6 offhand dps

What i read from your testing is that you should pop charge DA in fights as thats the biggest factor and just keep high CD. make you lose a heal charge but your more often than not diseased anyway.

My only class that i can test my self is only 30 still. but i will do same as soon as im 50 due to 24h played free respec.
atm im 100% sure i will play 50DW Inf if it ever get to 50.

My test compared the higher buffs of 40PF vs higher CD. The DPS is the actual damage from all sources (mainhand offhand and dmg add). Popping a DA charge would increase the high CD spec, but I would prefer the perma 7.3DA from PF and keep legion charge up.

There's now multiple sources confirming similar results.

Thu 16 May 2019 3:12 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:01 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 8:31 PM
i assumed 4.1 mh and 3.1 oh

You should really test with 4.2mh 2.5oh because this is optimal, and should point to higher dps with lower CD because you're basically using your oh to boost the dps of your mh.. Meaning OH hits matter even less

now with 4.2 mh and 2.5 oh

(38+rr4 CD / 31 PF) 133,8 DMG/swing 65,5 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD / 46 PF) 138 DMG/swing 68,5 DMG/second
(39+rr4 CD / 21 PF) 128,4 DMG/swing 61 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD /41 PF) 131,8 DMG/swing 65,4 DMG/second
(7+rr4 CD /50 PF) 133 DMG/swing 67,6 DMG/second

as you can see values are a bit smaller than before

Thu 16 May 2019 3:54 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 3:12 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:01 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 8:31 PM
i assumed 4.1 mh and 3.1 oh

You should really test with 4.2mh 2.5oh because this is optimal, and should point to higher dps with lower CD because you're basically using your oh to boost the dps of your mh.. Meaning OH hits matter even less

now with 4.2 mh and 2.5 oh

(38+rr4 CD / 31 PF) 133,8 DMG/swing 65,5 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD / 46 PF) 138 DMG/swing 68,5 DMG/second
(39+rr4 CD / 21 PF) 128,4 DMG/swing 61 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD /41 PF) 131,8 DMG/swing 65,4 DMG/second
(7+rr4 CD /50 PF) 133 DMG/swing 67,6 DMG/second

as you can see values are a bit smaller than before

Keep in mind your dex/qui debuff from your weapon was lowering the abs of the dummy so your doing more dmg with your new setup as you can see your MH was doing more dmg with 4.1

Thu 16 May 2019 4:06 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 3:54 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 3:12 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 15 May 2019 9:01 PM
You should really test with 4.2mh 2.5oh because this is optimal, and should point to higher dps with lower CD because you're basically using your oh to boost the dps of your mh.. Meaning OH hits matter even less

now with 4.2 mh and 2.5 oh

(38+rr4 CD / 31 PF) 133,8 DMG/swing 65,5 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD / 46 PF) 138 DMG/swing 68,5 DMG/second
(39+rr4 CD / 21 PF) 128,4 DMG/swing 61 DMG/second
(19+rr4 CD /41 PF) 131,8 DMG/swing 65,4 DMG/second
(7+rr4 CD /50 PF) 133 DMG/swing 67,6 DMG/second

as you can see values are a bit smaller than before

Keep in mind your dex/qui debuff from your weapon was lowering the abs of the dummy so your doing more dmg with your new setup as you can see your MH was doing more dmg with 4.1

i did not do physical test... all on paper, but also checked the dmg on dolls... numbers seem to be quite accurate, even though i dont know the exact af of the dolls

Thu 16 May 2019 5:14 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 4:06 PM
i did not do physical test... all on paper, but also checked the dmg on dolls... numbers seem to be quite accurate, even though i dont know the exact af of the dolls

Was you damage an average of both weapons swinging or just mainhand? Because you're showing less damage with a slower weapon

Also the haste effect from DW doesn't affect melee dmg and style damage will greatly affect dps of using slow mh fast oh

Thu 16 May 2019 6:10 PM by Virn

My ranger is spec for BG/group only, so no stealth.

My old spec was :
- 50 bow
- 44 piercing
- 39 CD
- 5 path

I will change it by :
- 50 bow
- 29 piercing
- 18 CD
- 48 path

Thu 16 May 2019 6:59 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 5:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 4:06 PM
i did not do physical test... all on paper, but also checked the dmg on dolls... numbers seem to be quite accurate, even though i dont know the exact af of the dolls

Was you damage an average of both weapons swinging or just mainhand? Because you're showing less damage with a slower weapon

Also the haste effect from DW doesn't affect melee dmg and style damage will greatly affect dps of using slow mh fast oh

its an average of both hands ofc .... otherwiese this whole thing would not make any sense.
actually all the numbers are base dmg without style bonus. you have a poaint there, so i took a look on style dmg too now, but it doesnt rly change the numbers... ofc numbers are higher, still slow offhand does more dmg than fast offhand.

(19+rr4 CD / 46 pf) 4.2 mh 2.5 oh / 170 DMG/swing / 84.7 DMG/s
(19+rr4 CD / 46 pf) 4.2 mh 3.1 oh / 178 DMG/swing / 85 DMG/s

Thu 16 May 2019 8:53 PM by Sepphiroth75

Virn wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:10 PM
My ranger is spec for BG/group only, so no stealth.

My old spec was :
- 50 bow
- 44 piercing
- 39 CD
- 5 path

I will change it by :
- 50 bow
- 29 piercing
- 18 CD
- 48 path

I would drop bow to 35 ad get stealth. i was 45 Bow and i see hardly any difference from 45 to 35. the stealth will probably save you more than the very small damage increase you will see from 50 bow

Thu 16 May 2019 9:10 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:59 PM
(19+rr4 CD / 46 pf) 4.2 mh 2.5 oh / 170 DMG/swing / 84.7 DMG/s
(19+rr4 CD / 46 pf) 4.2 mh 3.1 oh / 178 DMG/swing / 85 DMG/s

Your math is off somewhere man

all speed MH and OH should be equal(unless you go under 1.5speed) the only thing is with styles faster offhand yields higher dps..

Let's put some base numbers here.
100dmg on 4.0 weapon 75 dmg on 3.0 weapon
100+75=175 4+3=7÷2=3.5
175÷3.5=50dps
100 [4.0]+ 100 [4.0]=200÷4=50dps
100 [4.0] + 50 [2.0] = 150 ÷ 3 = 50dps

But you add growth rate then it favors faster OH with slow MH
100 [4.0] × 1.50[0.5GR] = 150 + 100[4.0] = 250 ÷ 4 = 62.5dps
100 [4.0] ×1.50[0.5GR] = 150 + 50 [2.0] = 200 ÷ 3 = 66.6dps

Which shows a 6% dps increase with a 0.5GR style which is low so any higher dmg style will increase this gap... You're right it may not be noticeable in the amount of time most fights last and there is the debate about upfront dmg coming from the first hit... But with lower CD and less offhand swings is where you would see the bigger boost in damage. Let's calculate that with 0% off hand chance.

0.5gr style
150 [4.0] ÷ 4 = 37.5dps
Vs
150[3.0] ÷ 3 = 50dps

Is quite a huge boost.. So as I said the biggest boost is to slow mainhand with fast off hand especially if you have lower CD

Thu 16 May 2019 10:08 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 11:26 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 8:55 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:28 AM
when i am back home from work i take a look at it
but my experiance with that is that on paper faster offhand might outdamage the slower offhand but in a real fight where you only hit like 8-10 times it doesnt really give you a bonus and therefore you want highest possible dmg/swing

Exactly. Was it you that did the extensive offhand testing or was it someone else? I can't remember who, but they said that for a CD/DW fast offhand to actually catch up dps-wise with LA (via the haste effect) the player would need about 20 swings due to the randomness of CD/DW even at 50 spec. I've always run the slowest offhand possible when in Alb or Hib. It makes more sense to get a solid offhand swing that is slow as possible when it does swing.

could be, in fact i have another excell sheet where i compared dw and la...
on my sb i also use a slow (4.0) offhand btw

The SB is where you should be using the fastest offhand because of the guaranteed haste.

Fri 17 May 2019 6:34 AM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 9:10 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 6:59 PM
(19+rr4 CD / 46 pf) 4.2 mh 2.5 oh / 170 DMG/swing / 84.7 DMG/s
(19+rr4 CD / 46 pf) 4.2 mh 3.1 oh / 178 DMG/swing / 85 DMG/s

Your math is off somewhere man all speed MH and OH should be equal(unless you go under 1.5speed) the only thing is with styles faster offhand yields higher dps..

Let's put some base numbers here.
100dmg on 4.0 weapon 75 dmg on 3.0 weapon
100+75=175 4+3=7÷2=3.5
175÷3.5=50dps
100 [4.0]+ 100 [4.0]=200÷4=50dps
100 [4.0] + 50 [2.0] = 150 ÷ 3 = 50dps

But you add growth rate then it favors faster OH with slow MH
100 [4.0] × 1.50[0.5GR] = 150 + 100[4.0] = 250 ÷ 4 = 62.5dps
100 [4.0] ×1.50[0.5GR] = 150 + 50 [2.0] = 200 ÷ 3 = 66.6dps

Which shows a 6% dps increase with a 0.5GR style which is low so any higher dmg style will increase this gap... You're right it may not be noticeable in the amount of time most fights last and there is the debate about upfront dmg coming from the first hit... But with lower CD and less offhand swings is where you would see the bigger boost in damage. Let's calculate that with 0% off hand chance.

0.5gr style
150 [4.0] ÷ 4 = 37.5dps
Vs
150[3.0] ÷ 3 = 50dps

Is quite a huge boost.. So as I said the biggest boost is to slow mainhand with fast off hand especially if you have lower CD

basicly thats correct but you have to consider that you lose the speed bonus when only mh hits

Fri 17 May 2019 6:38 AM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 10:08 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 11:26 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 8:55 AM
Exactly. Was it you that did the extensive offhand testing or was it someone else? I can't remember who, but they said that for a CD/DW fast offhand to actually catch up dps-wise with LA (via the haste effect) the player would need about 20 swings due to the randomness of CD/DW even at 50 spec. I've always run the slowest offhand possible when in Alb or Hib. It makes more sense to get a solid offhand swing that is slow as possible when it does swing.

could be, in fact i have another excell sheet where i compared dw and la...
on my sb i also use a slow (4.0) offhand btw

The SB is where you should be using the fastest offhand because of the guaranteed haste.

no i did physical tests on that and also there the slow offhand is ahead.
cant show you because i recorded it manually on paper.
you have to consider a fight where you only hit about 8-10 times till the enemy dies.... in that time the speedbonus does not add up to another full swing, which then would ofc increase the over all dmg

Fri 17 May 2019 10:59 AM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 6:38 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 10:08 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 11:26 AM
could be, in fact i have another excell sheet where i compared dw and la...
on my sb i also use a slow (4.0) offhand btw

The SB is where you should be using the fastest offhand because of the guaranteed haste.

no i did physical tests on that and also there the slow offhand is ahead.
cant show you because i recorded it manually on paper.
you have to consider a fight where you only hit about 8-10 times till the enemy dies.... in that time the speedbonus does not add up to another full swing, which then would ofc increase the over all dmg

Good to know. Thanks for testing. What is your opinion on using the fastest MH possible (to hit speed cap) to get more style effects in vs using the slowest MH possible for bigger styled damage? This could apply to dual wielding or one-handed.

Fri 17 May 2019 2:27 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 10:59 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 6:38 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 10:08 PM
The SB is where you should be using the fastest offhand because of the guaranteed haste.

no i did physical tests on that and also there the slow offhand is ahead.
cant show you because i recorded it manually on paper.
you have to consider a fight where you only hit about 8-10 times till the enemy dies.... in that time the speedbonus does not add up to another full swing, which then would ofc increase the over all dmg

Good to know. Thanks for testing. What is your opinion on using the fastest MH possible (to hit speed cap) to get more style effects in vs using the slowest MH possible for bigger styled damage? This could apply to dual wielding or one-handed.

ok i asked my excell sheet about that and surprisingly a fast mh is ahead of a 4.2 mh in terms of dmg/s
46 pf 39 blade 19 cd 273 str 236 quick 17% haste taunting blade style

3.3 mh 3.1 oh effective speed 1,72s / 154,8 DMG/swing 88,6 DMG/s
4.2 mh 3.1 oh effective speed 1,96s / 178,7 DMG/swing 85 DMG/s
3.3 mh 2.5 oh effective speed 1,55s / 146,8 DMG/swing 88,4 DMG/s
2.5 mh 3.1 oh effective speed 1,5s / 134,4 DMG/swing 93,9 DMG/s

Fri 17 May 2019 6:35 PM by paul_g

After testing everything in the field
I landed at:

Comp 50 stealth
40pf
44blades
Comp 50 CD
15bow

RR7

Fri 17 May 2019 7:13 PM by Prymer

paul_g wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 6:35 PM
After testing everything in the field
I landed at:

Comp 50 stealth
40pf
44blades
Comp 50 CD
15bow

RR7

How does 15 bow compare to 27/35? if you have any experience with those.

Fri 17 May 2019 8:37 PM by paul_g

Prymer wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 7:13 PM
paul_g wrote: ↑
Fri 17 May 2019 6:35 PM
After testing everything in the field
I landed at:

Comp 50 stealth
40pf
44blades
Comp 50 CD
15bow

RR7

How does 15 bow compare to 27/35? if you have any experience with those.

about 15% -20% less bow damage and loss of rapid fire...however my play style is a BM with stealth so meh

Sat 18 May 2019 1:43 PM by Virn

Sepphiroth75 wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 8:53 PM
I would drop bow to 35 ad get stealth. i was 45 Bow and i see hardly any difference from 45 to 35. the stealth will probably save you more than the very small damage increase you will see from 50 bow

After test on dummy, difference with 40 and 50 bow is 5% dmg approx. We could consider that 8/10% approx with 35 in bow to compare at 50.

For a BG's spec stealth is useless, aim isn't to stay safe far of your group but :
1. find a line to harass support/magician ennemies with 2k range (rupt & dmg)
2. protect your support with snare/stun weapon's skills

However, yeah stealth could be used in keep defence/attack to shoot easier from/to bulwark.

So, depending of shoot's number to down magician/healer, this 8-10% could be interresting. Indeed, if you save an arrow (1.5 sec RF or 2.7 sec) to kill your target, have 50 in bow could be interresting ; otherwise 35 bow seems a better way.

On the second case, I will spec like that :
piercing 42
celtic 26
archery 35
pathfind 48

And if you say, "okay but without BG what you do ? You just sitdown and wait LOL" no I log another toon ^^

Sat 18 May 2019 3:42 PM by Cadebrennus

Virn wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 1:43 PM
Sepphiroth75 wrote: ↑
Thu 16 May 2019 8:53 PM
I would drop bow to 35 ad get stealth. i was 45 Bow and i see hardly any difference from 45 to 35. the stealth will probably save you more than the very small damage increase you will see from 50 bow

After test on dummy, difference with 40 and 50 bow is 5% dmg approx. We could consider that 8/10% approx with 35 in bow to compare at 50.

For a BG's spec stealth are useless, aim isn't to stay safe far of your group but :
1. find a line to harass support/magician ennemies with 2k range (rupt & dmg)
2. protect your support with snare/stun weapon's skills

However, yeah stealth could be used in keep defence/attack to shoot easier from/to bulwark.

So, depending of shoot's number to down magician/healer, this 8-10% could be interresting. Indeed, if you save an arrow (1.5 sec RF or 2.7 sec) to kill your target have 50 in bow could be interresting ; otherwise 35 bow seems a better way.

On the second case, I will spec like that :
piercing 42
celtic 26
archery 35
pathfind 48

And if you say, "okay but without BG what you do ? You just sitdown and wait LOL" no I log another toon ^^

This is exactly why I was a low stealth spec on live. My Ranger was far more useful with the spec points elsewhere, and I could still use stealth to hide from visi groups. Let's be honest here, stealth is useless Vs other stealthers on live and useless Vs assassins here.

Sat 18 May 2019 4:20 PM by Virn

@Cadebrennus Yeah my POV is that we should ultra spec our ranger like a :
- stealther's hunter (high stealth is required - with high RR low stealth could be okay)
- isolated sniper (medium stealth is required)
- stealther group (medium/low stealth is required)
- battlegroup (no/very low stealth is required)

Sat 18 May 2019 7:39 PM by Cadebrennus

Virn wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 4:20 PM
@Cadebrennus Yeah my POV is that we should ultra spec our ranger like a :
- stealther's hunter (high stealth is required - with high RR low stealth could be okay)
- isolated sniper (medium stealth is required)
- stealther group (medium/low stealth is required)
- battlegroup (no/very low stealth is required)

I've gone with the 4th option since 2012 and it worked out very well. Archers have no business trying to be full stealthers and are only in for disappointment if they do. The problem with this approach on Phoenix though is that all of the drawbacks to Archery that exist on Phoenix without any real benefits other than 500-700 more range than a caster.

Sat 18 May 2019 9:22 PM by Virn

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 7:39 PM
I've gone with the 4th option since 2012 and it worked out very well. Archers have no business trying to be full stealthers and are only in for disappointment if they do. The problem with this approach on Phoenix though is that all of the drawbacks to Archery that exist on Phoenix without any real benefits other than 500-700 more range than a caster.

Happy to find finally another ranger with same mindset, that's rare ^^ and with a huge experience, I'm lowbie to compare

What realm's skills have you focused ? Regarding my toon I took :

Tier 1 :
Long Wind
Tireless
Falcon's Eye 6 (min)

Tier 2 :
Augmented Dexterity 5 (min)
Volley

Tier 3 :
Ignore Pain 1
Determination or Purge
Toughness 2 + Augmented Constitution 2 (100 hits cheap)

What you think of Longshot and Mastery of the Arcane ? Until how many should we invest in Falcon's Eye (6, 7 or 8) ? Same question for Aug Dex.

Sat 18 May 2019 9:43 PM by Cadebrennus

Virn wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 9:22 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 18 May 2019 7:39 PM
I've gone with the 4th option since 2012 and it worked out very well. Archers have no business trying to be full stealthers and are only in for disappointment if they do. The problem with this approach on Phoenix though is that all of the drawbacks to Archery that exist on Phoenix without any real benefits other than 500-700 more range than a caster.

Happy to find finally another ranger with same mindset, that's rare ^^ and with a huge experience, I'm lowbie to compare

What realm's skills have you focused ? Regarding my toon I took :

Tier 1 :
Long Wind
Tireless
Falcon's Eye 6 (min)

Tier 2 :
Augmented Dexterity 5 (min)
Volley

Tier 3 :
Ignore Pain 1
Determination or Purge
Toughness 2 + Augmented Constitution 2 (100 hits cheap)

What you think of Longshot and Mastery of the Arcane ? Until how many should we invest in Falcon's Eye (6, 7 or 8) ? Same question for Aug Dex.

I think they're all pretty useless on Phoenix with the exception of Purge and IP. To be perfectly honest I've gone with another class. On Phoenix a shortbow/crossbow is just as effective as the Archers' bows with the exception of the additional range that Archers get.

Tue 21 May 2019 9:24 AM by Haniel

I spent a lot of time on the charplain lately to figure out a good char post buffpot changes since atm I consider my champ completed and I dont enjoy playing him so much anymore.

I have 2 basic idea in mind for solo play, 5RR as base since it's so ez to do here, at least if you have a good playtime like myself

Celt

42pf
39blade
37CD
35 stealth
12bow

Overcap quick by1 with MoA7 {15str/10con creation}, better racial resist, tempest style plus high CD.

Shar

50pf
39blade
22CD
35Stealth
15bow

Better stats since it doesn't overcap qui with red d/q and MoA, worst resist, no tempest, less composite CD.

I didn't find any DPS calculation done for 40pf/highCD vs 50pf/20ish CD so it's hard to tell the difference between red dmg and better WS vs tempest and 7.5% chance to hit with both weapon, also couz I would prob go for a slow OF for Shar and a fast OF for the high CD build, or at least swap in fast OF after 1st hit.

My only question is IF I should try and go hardmode on an archer since I can build a gosu NS temp if I so desire, weaponless with all toys//capped etc.

Would be also nice to see if some pierce build spawned after the buff changes since the WS now slighty favorite pierce, but I don't see any build working atm.

You either have too many points and nothing usefull to gain given that the only real advantage of pierce is that you can drop it below 39 since the style is useless so you can just stay at 52 composite, but feel likes there is nothing to take with those extra points and you are still missing some points for a 35 bow build to work properly.

Feel like there is no way around Blade even after buff changes, giving evade stun AND keeping spectrum blade w/out any compensation for either pierce or CD fucked up heavily the balance of weapons choice in stealth war IMO but that's an old news.

Tue 21 May 2019 4:17 PM by inoeth

Haniel wrote: ↑
Tue 21 May 2019 9:24 AM
I spent a lot of time on the charplain lately to figure out a good char post buffpot changes since atm I consider my champ completed and I dont enjoy playing him so much anymore.

I have 2 basic idea in mind for solo play, 5RR as base since it's so ez to do here, at least if you have a good playtime like myself

Celt

42pf
39blade
37CD
35 stealth
12bow

Overcap quick by1 with MoA7 {15str/10con creation}, better racial resist, tempest style plus high CD.

Shar

50pf
39blade
22CD
35Stealth
15bow

Better stats since it doesn't overcap qui with red d/q and MoA, worst resist, no tempest, less composite CD.

I didn't find any DPS calculation done for 40pf/highCD vs 50pf/20ish CD so it's hard to tell the difference between red dmg and better WS vs tempest and 7.5% chance to hit with both weapon, also couz I would prob go for a slow OF for Shar and a fast OF for the high CD build, or at least swap in fast OF after 1st hit.

My only question is IF I should try and go hardmode on an archer since I can build a gosu NS temp if I so desire, weaponless with all toys//capped etc.

Would be also nice to see if some pierce build spawned after the buff changes since the WS now slighty favorite pierce, but I don't see any build working atm.

You either have too many points and nothing usefull to gain given that the only real advantage of pierce is that you can drop it below 39 since the style is useless so you can just stay at 52 composite, but feel likes there is nothing to take with those extra points and you are still missing some points for a 35 bow build to work properly.

Feel like there is no way around Blade even after buff changes, giving evade stun AND keeping spectrum blade w/out any compensation for either pierce or CD fucked up heavily the balance of weapons choice in stealth war IMO but that's an old news.

read my earlier posts in this thread for comparison.....

Tue 21 May 2019 8:34 PM by Haniel

Your earlier post doesnt make too much sense to me.

To compare those 2 builds yiou should try

a) celt with high CD and 40pf plus MoA 7

b) shar with low CD and 50pf MoA9

Since there is nothing worth investing into after Purge and IP. Your test runned with MoA0 are indeed interesting but not completely truthworthy in my opinion, even considering tempest wich is a powerfull opening when you land side stun but overhall completely ignorable. CD seems indeed to recover over a full investement into PF, but is it true at 50pf/Moa9 Shar vs 40pf/Moa7 celt {wich I consider the cap as celt since you overcap quick after that}? Im still blind on this point. Going to roll the celt with 50ish comp CD and 40pf MoA7 since I dont enjoy shar, but Im not sure is the best min/max bet. If you think to have the time to make test with those MoA value I would love to see them, if you think that there are better RA to invest aside MoA I strongly suggest to roll an NS and avoid a lot of pain instead, just my 2c :p

Tue 21 May 2019 10:42 PM by qq6

PF 40 caps out with MotA 6 (missing 2 points for d/q).
PF 50 strength is capped with MotA 0. D/Q with MotA 2.

MoP adds pretty crazy dmg 7+, aug str and survivability RAs, i could never find enough points to spend on those RAs

Wed 22 May 2019 4:36 PM by Horus

After leveling up a Celt blades ranger and getting him to RR4x I decided it just wasn't the play style i was looking for. I went back to my 'keen.

The changes to PF are awesome...call me crazy but my current spec at just under RR7 is

35 stealth
42 bow
48 PF
25 pierce
6 CD

MoArcane2 = capped dex/ quick. I think I have aug dex 6...With pot my dex is 370, quick 283. With a bard base buff it is 396 dex. That is huge for pushing through AF. Crit cap 1032

Other than purge 2 all ranged RAs, MoArchery5, FE5

Do assassins eat me up? Yes, but I lost most of the time on my celt too. However now my ranged dmg is something to be feared. I know bow doesn't scale that well at high spec but it sure seems that those few extra dmg points are enough to get me a kill where in the past my target would escape with a few HPs left. I have 3 pierce styles I use and sometimes that is enough to finish a target I've beat down with the bow.

Meh, to each his own. I'm as happy now with the above as I have with anything since server launch. But I always preferred the sniper play style if playing an archer class.

Wed 22 May 2019 7:17 PM by bigne88

Who cares about ranger? It is an useless class, even nocive, to say the least, cause it only leeches others RPs.
You need no particular spec or ras to kill greys or leech anyway.

Thu 23 May 2019 1:14 AM by Cadebrennus

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 7:17 PM
Who cares about ranger? It is an useless class, even nocive, to say the least, cause it only leeches others RPs.
You need no particular spec or ras to kill greys or leech anyway.

Thu 23 May 2019 2:02 AM by bigne88

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 1:14 AM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 7:17 PM
Who cares about ranger? It is an useless class, even nocive, to say the least, cause it only leeches others RPs.
You need no particular spec or ras to kill greys or leech anyway.

I do not need to troll you guys, since you are doing it by yourself, playing a useless and overcrowed class.
Your "fun", edgylords, is all about adding others players fights and killing expers.

Funny thing is that most of invis are the one who cryies abiut anything, like buff changes.

Thu 23 May 2019 2:58 AM by relvinian

I tell you what, rangers hit like a truck. I grant you im only 47 but regular shot was hitting me for 380, add 150 crit and by the time you figure out where that arrow is coming from you rare dead.

Regular shot, or is that somehow crit damage each time, can you shoot multiple crit shots?

Thu 23 May 2019 5:04 AM by Cadebrennus

relvinian wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 2:58 AM
I tell you what, rangers hit like a truck. I grant you im only 47 but regular shot was hitting me for 380, add 150 crit and by the time you figure out where that arrow is coming from you rare dead.

Regular shot, or is that somehow crit damage each time, can you shoot multiple crit shots?

Anything other than a level 50 will get hit by a truck by a level 50.

Thu 23 May 2019 8:28 AM by Haniel

Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 4:36 PM
After leveling up a Celt blades ranger and getting him to RR4x I decided it just wasn't the play style i was looking for. I went back to my 'keen.

The changes to PF are awesome...call me crazy but my current spec at just under RR7 is

35 stealth
42 bow
48 PF
25 pierce
6 CD

MoArcane2 = capped dex/ quick. I think I have aug dex 6...With pot my dex is 370, quick 283. With a bard base buff it is 396 dex. That is huge for pushing through AF. Crit cap 1032

Other than purge 2 all ranged RAs, MoArchery5, FE5

Do assassins eat me up? Yes, but I lost most of the time on my celt too. However now my ranged dmg is something to be feared. I know bow doesn't scale that well at high spec but it sure seems that those few extra dmg points are enough to get me a kill where in the past my target would escape with a few HPs left. I have 3 pierce styles I use and sometimes that is enough to finish a target I've beat down with the bow.

Meh, to each his own. I'm as happy now with the above as I have with anything since server launch. But I always preferred the sniper play style if playing an archer class.

For the sniper build, I suggested 1 mate:

Elf over keen for the better racial and, basically, only minus 5dex since its so ez to cap quickness no matter what at 48pf/moa. Elf Bladeshade are prob the best stealther of vanilla, my old one buffbotted back in live still has left strong memories :v also I dont think small race count has much in stealth war like it does on visible, if an assa spot us we are food no matter what and any decent player will spam face/engage after 1st arrow hit, so I find elf ranger underplayed compared to all the keen out there, but it's up to you.

5RR for your usual starting reference

35stealth
37bow
27pierce
18CD
48pf

There are tremendous negative return after 52 comp bow if you check some DPS calculation done in the scout forum and ranger bow has even less DPS, so staying at 52bow open you side stun and a bit more WS wiith MH. The gozu res of the elf maybe are gonna make you tank 1 extra hit hoping for some1 to save your ass if you are inc'ed badly :v I still don't like the sniper but there are a lot of ppl out there that enjoy the playstyle and I think that 52bow/48pf is good enough, plus bring some love to elves!

Thu 23 May 2019 8:55 AM by inoeth

Haniel wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 8:28 AM
Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 22 May 2019 4:36 PM
After leveling up a Celt blades ranger and getting him to RR4x I decided it just wasn't the play style i was looking for. I went back to my 'keen.

The changes to PF are awesome...call me crazy but my current spec at just under RR7 is

35 stealth
42 bow
48 PF
25 pierce
6 CD

MoArcane2 = capped dex/ quick. I think I have aug dex 6...With pot my dex is 370, quick 283. With a bard base buff it is 396 dex. That is huge for pushing through AF. Crit cap 1032

Other than purge 2 all ranged RAs, MoArchery5, FE5

Do assassins eat me up? Yes, but I lost most of the time on my celt too. However now my ranged dmg is something to be feared. I know bow doesn't scale that well at high spec but it sure seems that those few extra dmg points are enough to get me a kill where in the past my target would escape with a few HPs left. I have 3 pierce styles I use and sometimes that is enough to finish a target I've beat down with the bow.

Meh, to each his own. I'm as happy now with the above as I have with anything since server launch. But I always preferred the sniper play style if playing an archer class.

For the sniper build, I suggested 1 mate:

Elf over keen for the better racial and, basically, only minus 5dex since its so ez to cap quickness no matter what at 48pf/moa. Elf Bladeshade are prob the best stealther of vanilla, my old one buffbotted back in live still has left strong memories :v also I dont think small race count has much in stealth war like it does on visible, if an assa spot us we are food no matter what and any decent player will spam face/engage after 1st arrow hit, so I find elf ranger underplayed compared to all the keen out there, but it's up to you.

5RR for your usual starting reference

35stealth
37bow
27pierce
18CD
48pf

There are tremendous negative return after 52 comp bow if you check some DPS calculation done in the scout forum and ranger bow has even less DPS, so staying at 52bow open you side stun and a bit more WS wiith MH. The gozu res of the elf maybe are gonna make you tank 1 extra hit hoping for some1 to save your ass if you are inc'ed badly :v I still don't like the sniper but there are a lot of ppl out there that enjoy the playstyle and I think that 52bow/48pf is good enough, plus bring some love to elves!

with that race/spec you are food for sure xD

Thu 23 May 2019 9:47 AM by Haniel

Couz with the keen you are not? We were talking about snipers there. And, as I said, I never understood the point to go keen as a stealther. 1st arrow vs any player with hands means face and engage and when you are spotted in stealth it's due to a shade, so the size doesnt matter at all. I would pick 2%/3% slash/thrust resist over 5dex anyday. Then how to spec sniper is up to you I'm not considering doing that for sure, but I dont get the reason to go over 52 comp bow no matter what.

Thu 23 May 2019 10:44 AM by Sepplord

size is always a factor

not every fight you will do will be a 1vs1 against someone who faces instantly
Keens are basically invisble from below while reloading on the milegate, for example

In zergfights people missclick easier

when travelling unstealthed people have a harder time clicking you which might make the difference and let you stealth etc...

Thu 23 May 2019 12:19 PM by inoeth

Haniel wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:47 AM
Couz with the keen you are not? We were talking about snipers there. And, as I said, I never understood the point to go keen as a stealther. 1st arrow vs any player with hands means face and engage and when you are spotted in stealth it's due to a shade, so the size doesnt matter at all. I would pick 2%/3% slash/thrust resist over 5dex anyday. Then how to spec sniper is up to you I'm not considering doing that for sure, but I dont get the reason to go over 52 comp bow no matter what.

im not saying keen....
both keen/elf are a bad choice for ranger imo
be celt/shar

also i did not say go over comp 52 bow..... imo thats much too much 27 bow is all you need and it also does enough dmg (around 600 crit / 300 normal on leather as a shar)
spend your specpoints into melee and you can also face assassins and kick their arses

"sniper" spec is a myth... there is no sniper spec. well we can talk about 35 bow for rapidfire but imo thats also a waste of points.

Thu 23 May 2019 12:39 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 12:19 PM
Haniel wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:47 AM
Couz with the keen you are not? We were talking about snipers there. And, as I said, I never understood the point to go keen as a stealther. 1st arrow vs any player with hands means face and engage and when you are spotted in stealth it's due to a shade, so the size doesnt matter at all. I would pick 2%/3% slash/thrust resist over 5dex anyday. Then how to spec sniper is up to you I'm not considering doing that for sure, but I dont get the reason to go over 52 comp bow no matter what.

im not saying keen....
both keen/elf are a bad choice for ranger imo
be celt/shar

also i did not say go over comp 52 bow..... imo thats much too much 27 bow is all you need and it also does enough dmg (around 600 crit / 300 normal on leather as a shar)
spend your specpoints into melee and you can also face assassins and kick their arses

"sniper" spec is a myth... there is no sniper spec. well we can talk about 35 bow for rapidfire but imo thats also a waste of points.

I agree that unless you are a dedicated interrupter then anything above 27 bow is a waste now. However I disagree with you that Rangers or Archers can "kick assassin arses." Melee Archers are just Assassins without Poison or Critical Strike. If you read the Assassin threads you can see that doing without either one gimps the Assassin, and therefore doing without both just dooms the Assassin to failure. Playing a version of that build that can never spec in either just means a weak class from the beginning.

Thu 23 May 2019 2:20 PM by inoeth

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 12:39 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 12:19 PM
Haniel wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 9:47 AM
Couz with the keen you are not? We were talking about snipers there. And, as I said, I never understood the point to go keen as a stealther. 1st arrow vs any player with hands means face and engage and when you are spotted in stealth it's due to a shade, so the size doesnt matter at all. I would pick 2%/3% slash/thrust resist over 5dex anyday. Then how to spec sniper is up to you I'm not considering doing that for sure, but I dont get the reason to go over 52 comp bow no matter what.

im not saying keen....
both keen/elf are a bad choice for ranger imo
be celt/shar

also i did not say go over comp 52 bow..... imo thats much too much 27 bow is all you need and it also does enough dmg (around 600 crit / 300 normal on leather as a shar)
spend your specpoints into melee and you can also face assassins and kick their arses

"sniper" spec is a myth... there is no sniper spec. well we can talk about 35 bow for rapidfire but imo thats also a waste of points.

I agree that unless you are a dedicated interrupter then anything above 27 bow is a waste now. However I disagree with you that Rangers or Archers can "kick assassin arses." Melee Archers are just Assassins without Poison or Critical Strike. If you read the Assassin threads you can see that doing without either one gimps the Assassin, and therefore doing without both just dooms the Assassin to failure. Playing a version of that build that can never spec in either just means a weak class from the beginning.

i dont care what people write in assassin threads.... i also play ranger and i do pretty good vs them

current spec 35 stealth 39 blade 27 bow 19 cd 46 pf

Thu 23 May 2019 2:42 PM by Dominus

player name?

Fri 24 May 2019 12:43 PM by Haniel

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 2:20 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 12:39 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 May 2019 12:19 PM
im not saying keen....
both keen/elf are a bad choice for ranger imo
be celt/shar

also i did not say go over comp 52 bow..... imo thats much too much 27 bow is all you need and it also does enough dmg (around 600 crit / 300 normal on leather as a shar)
spend your specpoints into melee and you can also face assassins and kick their arses

"sniper" spec is a myth... there is no sniper spec. well we can talk about 35 bow for rapidfire but imo thats also a waste of points.

I agree that unless you are a dedicated interrupter then anything above 27 bow is a waste now. However I disagree with you that Rangers or Archers can "kick assassin arses." Melee Archers are just Assassins without Poison or Critical Strike. If you read the Assassin threads you can see that doing without either one gimps the Assassin, and therefore doing without both just dooms the Assassin to failure. Playing a version of that build that can never spec in either just means a weak class from the beginning.

i dont care what people write in assassin threads.... i also play ranger and i do pretty good vs them

current spec 35 stealth 39 blade 27 bow 19 cd 46 pf

In the end I set at 46pf for the red dmg add over high CD as well. My reasoning is that after 29CD you only gain dual swing % wich is not worth the flat dmg output of the dmg add in case you low roll, and even if you don't cap the dmg of ice storm/tempest the red dmg add works with both the side chain and the blade anytime.

35stealth
39blade
30CD
46pf
14bow

other options were 40pf/38CD or 42pf/36CD. Capping dmg variance of tempest would be nice but, at least as a newbie, I want to have the best build for when I can't land the side chain while keeping tempest style as a nice option over 27ish bow. Will see how it works out

Fri 7 Jun 2019 3:21 PM by ooj

hi guys, i wanna create my first ranger and... why all runs blade spec?
Blade spec is 100% str and vs sb-infi you loose tons of dmg with str/cons debuff and str debuff (liv17 if i remember right)
isnt perf better instead blade?
Thanks in advance for reply

Fri 7 Jun 2019 6:26 PM by Horus

ooj wrote: ↑
Fri 7 Jun 2019 3:21 PM
hi guys, i wanna create my first ranger and... why all runs blade spec?
Blade spec is 100% str and vs sb-infi you loose tons of dmg with str/cons debuff and str debuff (liv17 if i remember right)
isnt perf better instead blade?
Thanks in advance for reply

It is all about dmg type vs armor. That is huge. The dmg difference using the "wrong" dmg type vs the "right" dmg type is quite significant. This is much greater than what dex gives you for thrust. ..and if you do not have purge you will never win anyway.

In the case of the ranger, most melee 1 on 1 you are going to face are against SBs, Infilts,..and you can throw in Scouts and Hunters if you like...

SB is slash vulnerable, thrust resistant
Hunter is slash vulnerable, thrust resistant
Infilt is slash neutral, thrust resistant
scout is slash neutral, thrust vulnerable

Now skalds and minst are both thrust vulnerable if those are targets you face often...but I think they are down on the list...

All that being said, I still think there is a place for the sniper ranger spec. You just have to play differently. Things are not as bad as they used to be. Not as many swarms of assassins and the stealth change was nice for survivability. Sure high bow does not increase the dmg that much but if you are committed to being a ranged killer every little bit helps and can be the difference between getting a kill or someone getting away. I personally think rapid fire is a must. I use it more than any other shot. 5.5 speed bow..rapid fire (bubble pop), crit, rapid fire rapid fire...etc more FE crits and procs... and endo (which was the bane of rapid fire) is not an issue on Phoenix.

Fri 7 Jun 2019 9:45 PM by Fooj Fujiyama

Agreed I love my sniper ranger build, I respect melee rangers but it's just not for me.
My build is 46 PF 43 RB 21 slash 18 CD and 34 stealth.
For one thing... you save a ridiculous amount of money with pathfinding buffs, the yellow spec dex buff is actually really good like +63 value I think. Aside from that you get a red damage add which is brutal if you can get your bow speed to a good spot. Besides these buffs the only thing I need is a dex pot and invigs, it's so cheap but effective. Oh and my favorite part is red speed to escape if you know it's gonna go badly. Not only is my build good for dropping assassins quick when they reveal themselves, you can also add onto zerg fights and absolutely wreck alb casters which feels nice. I know I have personally ruined a bunch of fights for them hehe.

I run falcons eye 9 and mastery of archery 4 or 5 and can normal shot people for 600+ if I get lucky with a crit and proc + dmg add. I don't even run purge because that is many extra points taken away from my ability to kill fast. A sniper is a glass cannon, you own people but you can get owned too. You just have to deal with the fact that if you run face to face with an assassin you are most likely gonna die and that's that, so you have to pick your fights carefully. You wait til the assassins are attacking each other and then you drop everybody! It's all about patience, honestly since the stealth buff snipers feel great to play, you can have the chance to escape assassins if you unstealth and run away when you see them so it's not too bad these days. Play smart and don't pick a fight you can't win and just stay out of common spots assassins run around at and profit!

Sat 8 Jun 2019 2:02 PM by Horus

Yep, I like the way you think...however I just can't bring myself to sacrifice purge 2. It is just too handy.