hibs at berk just now. - Phoenix Freeshard

Shrooms in the lord room window. Shrooms firing through walls.

Earlier i had heard they were talking about an animist nerf and i was against it, as i am against any nerf.

But if animist gets a nerf now? You DESERVE it.

Tue 7 May 2019 7:37 PM by florin

relvinian wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 7:32 PM
Shrooms in the lord room window. Shrooms firing through walls.

Earlier i had heard they were talking about an animist nerf and i was against it, as i am against any nerf.

But if animist gets a nerf now? You DESERVE it.

it's possible with the new updates that both necro los and animist controls are broken.

Tue 7 May 2019 7:47 PM by relvinian

I'm pro animist and pro necro, heck i dont even really bds to be nerfed.

BUT, that shit just now in the keep was stupid. We couldn't go to a room without being hit by shrooms and they just take all the power from the clerics so we just were helpless until we died.

Tue 7 May 2019 7:48 PM by florin

GM is saying it was only controlled pets. do you have a screen shot or video of FnF turrets on walls or tower while door 1 was closed?

Tue 7 May 2019 8:05 PM by relvinian

I don't care if it is controlled pets or not. And it was more than that, in lord room was both shrooms and turrets.

in window of lord room.

Screen shot? No.

regardless, putting even turrets in windows to fire through walls and aoe is nonsense. (VERD)

You think you should be able to sit safely on ground and place ur turret in lord room and then have it aoe?

Tue 7 May 2019 8:11 PM by kmark101

I stopped doing any kind of massive rvr due to shrooms. They are simply ruin the game for so many people, so lame.

Tue 7 May 2019 8:36 PM by florin

relvinian wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:05 PM
I don't care if it is controlled pets or not. And it was more than that, in lord room was both shrooms and turrets.

in window of lord room.

Screen shot? No.

regardless, putting even turrets in windows to fire through walls and aoe is nonsense. (VERD)

You think you should be able to sit safely on ground and place ur turret in lord room and then have it aoe?

I hate shrooms but that is a separate topic. My question was aiming to find if it was a bug regardless of my thought. Controlled pets are allowed in keep even if not owned and fnf once door 1 is down.

Tue 7 May 2019 8:48 PM by relvinian

I saw shroom pile in window of lord room with a turret as well.

Tue 7 May 2019 8:53 PM by florin

Safe to assume door 1 was down ?

Tue 7 May 2019 9:45 PM by relvinian

yeah it was

Tue 7 May 2019 11:39 PM by florin

Then according to the current rules it’s allowed - even shittier than letting bonedancer and chanter pets run up to the lord

Tue 7 May 2019 11:56 PM by mattymc

What is crapola is the shrooms hitting thru the walls which they consistently do and it's NOT allowed to place shrooms where they do; if by some strange reason it IS allowed here to put shrrooms on an unbriken piece it's idiotic ---- the LOS crap need to be fixed; the shroom exploit issue is stupid ..... at least ALL pets go thru doors adn while horrid, it's somewhat even

Wed 8 May 2019 3:44 AM by bigne88

Someone just died in rvr?
Plz cry some more.

Wed 8 May 2019 3:45 AM by dbeattie71

kmark101 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 8:11 PM
I stopped doing any kind of massive rvr due to shrooms. They are simply ruin the game for so many people, so lame.

All 15 of them? That’s like 2 BDs.

Wed 8 May 2019 6:56 AM by akeem_the_dream

Of course that mimimi comes from your side. You are not even have the right to complain. Your necro pet was inside the keep and you casted your crap ae dot in shade form outside on ppl in the rams. And thats my friend is bug abuse too

Wed 8 May 2019 7:11 AM by Saroi

akeem_the_dream wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:56 AM
Of course that mimimi comes from your side. You are not even have the right to complain. Your necro pet was inside the keep and you casted your crap ae dot in shade form outside on ppl in the rams. And thats my friend is bug abuse too

This. So many Necro AoE Dot and Bomb through walls/doors and inside the keep on the stairs they are able to hit people on multiple floors, which also means the healers on the bottom take damage and are not able to heal.

Wed 8 May 2019 7:37 AM by relvinian

I remember when necros were nerfed-- at least twice. As far as necro pets going through doors and walls, hey, if the devs take that out I'm still able to play my toon.

No worries there on my account. Shrooms fire through walls and so do turrets. Chanter pets can be pretty annoying. In this fight the original post was about, you had something like 8 chanter pets running in, you had the shrooms through the walls, you had multiple twfs, the aoe stuff, etc.

All I know was that sitting on the inside of the keep i was running up and down trying to find a spot i wasn't being hit by something anywhere in the keep.

The clerics were just screwed, totally out of power as they could not even regen as someone was always in combat.

Wouldn't it be nice, if like when the necro complaints were out there, someone from the hibs side said, "you know, maybe there could be an issue." Like i did on the necro issues?

Thu 9 May 2019 12:02 AM by relvinian

Today at relic in snow i specifically looked and they were placing forest hearts in the window and they were targetting people inside through the walls.

Very easy to get ur gtaoe up there, i messed around with it and u just park gtarget at base of wall and use mouse scroll, up it goes. Then i guess every hib in the entire zerg will just assist and drop their shrooms and turrets there. Then the shrooms will target everyone inside, through the walls, and they cannot even med to get power back to heal. So dumb.

Thu 9 May 2019 8:57 AM by Lillebror

Sounds like easy fix, why is it possible to move grt in y direction. Should be only x. (Horisontal)

Thu 9 May 2019 9:18 AM by Tillbeast

Pets have always bee an issue, its just an animist pets are extremely powerful in siege situations. Pets need fixing full stop no matter its a hunter or an animist. LoS needs fixing, firing through walls needs fixing, running through walls need fixing etc. Sure there will be players of all pet class characters who will abuse and cheat but most prob don't realise whats happening. I play an animist occasionally when I visit Hibernia and I have put up shrooms outside by rams to try and catch people running into keep and they have continued to fire once enemy has got in keep. That's not me or anyone else cheating its just bad game mechanics but you can guarantee mids and albs think the animists are cheating and complain about it.

Its crazy, one simple line of sight fix and its solved. Just something no version of daoc has ever seemed to get right. Placing a shroom on an elevated position (window for example) would not be an issue as defenders can wall hug and get out of LoS check that should be made at start of each cast of the pets dd.

Thu 9 May 2019 10:34 AM by Sepplord

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:57 AM
Sounds like easy fix, why is it possible to move grt in y direction. Should be only x. (Horisontal)

Then a GTAOE caster cannot GTAE the milegate/house from below
A group fighting another on a hill can't properly place groundtargets for RAs

Most fight's do not happen on one plane only, and while the GT manages to stay/follow elevation in some cases, it very often doesn't.

And that are only the problems of removing vertical GT-placement.
The thing is, it wouldn't even change much, since people would still get their GT there by other means (for example preset GTs +groundassisting)

Thu 9 May 2019 11:15 AM by relvinian

As it stands now, you must hold the keep at the first gate or the entrance of the first gate from the walls, past that, the keep is lost.

I think the windows in the lord room and others, need to be non targettable with GTAOE.

Thu 9 May 2019 11:56 AM by Lillebror

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 10:34 AM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:57 AM
Sounds like easy fix, why is it possible to move grt in y direction. Should be only x. (Horisontal)

Then a GTAOE caster cannot GTAE the milegate/house from below
A group fighting another on a hill can't properly place groundtargets for RAs

Most fight's do not happen on one plane only, and while the GT manages to stay/follow elevation in some cases, it very often doesn't.

And that are only the problems of removing vertical GT-placement.
The thing is, it wouldn't even change much, since people would still get their GT there by other means (for example preset GTs +groundassisting)

Shouldnt be possible to cast spells vs stuff You cant see.

If your not on flat terrain IT should just work same as it was

Thu 9 May 2019 12:08 PM by Sepplord

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 11:56 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 10:34 AM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 8:57 AM
Sounds like easy fix, why is it possible to move grt in y direction. Should be only x. (Horisontal)

Then a GTAOE caster cannot GTAE the milegate/house from below
A group fighting another on a hill can't properly place groundtargets for RAs

Most fight's do not happen on one plane only, and while the GT manages to stay/follow elevation in some cases, it very often doesn't.

And that are only the problems of removing vertical GT-placement.
The thing is, it wouldn't even change much, since people would still get their GT there by other means (for example preset GTs +groundassisting)
Shouldnt be possible to cast spells vs stuff You cant see.

If your not on flat terrain IT should just work same as it was

I am a bit confused. About both sentences

(maybe i am misunderstanding what you are trying to say)

a) so you want all non-LOS GTAE casts to be removed from the game? Aka nerfing the classes/speclines that have them?

b) what do you mean with "not on flat terrain"? (even disregarding that the "flat area" directly in front of a keep door maybe isn't 100%flat) An animist taking a few steps back onto the slope could put his groundtarget up and circumvent the restriction easily. All while the server needs to constantly check if people are on flat or sloped terrain?

Thu 9 May 2019 12:44 PM by kratoxin

not to mention more PvE Animists are defending keeps with Verdant shroom /place on door / AoE for 300+ dmg ez pz they all dead due to non targeted shroom ontop of door....

Thu 9 May 2019 12:57 PM by dbeattie71

If the 😭 get their way Animists won’t be able to zone into the fz. Then there will be 300 more zerging albs and mids. In the open field groups that don’t suck ae mezz the shrooms and kill everything. When hibs go on keep takes we run at speed of the realm or chanter speed, sometimes there’s a fight and 1/4 of the raiding party loses speed because, no bards. I bet the zerglers always have enough Skalds and Minstrels. Hib has Anis that manage to show up, people get hit by a shroom, 1 of the 15, and cry the blues, yet all sorts of pets come through the door but those are ok because it can’t be fixed.

Thu 9 May 2019 1:06 PM by Lillebror

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:08 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 11:56 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 10:34 AM
Then a GTAOE caster cannot GTAE the milegate/house from below
A group fighting another on a hill can't properly place groundtargets for RAs

Most fight's do not happen on one plane only, and while the GT manages to stay/follow elevation in some cases, it very often doesn't.

And that are only the problems of removing vertical GT-placement.
The thing is, it wouldn't even change much, since people would still get their GT there by other means (for example preset GTs +groundassisting)
Shouldnt be possible to cast spells vs stuff You cant see.

If your not on flat terrain IT should just work same as it was

I am a bit confused. About both sentences (maybe i am misunderstanding what you are trying to say)

a) so you want all non-LOS GTAE casts to be removed from the game? Aka nerfing the classes/speclines that have them?

b) what do you mean with "not on flat terrain"? (even disregarding that the "flat area" directly in front of a keep door maybe isn't 100%flat) An animist taking a few steps back onto the slope could put his groundtarget up and circumvent the restriction easily. All while the server needs to constantly check if people are on flat or sloped terrain?

A) yeah, if you cant see it you cant cast.
B) i mean that the groundset in horizontal direction should work at groundlevel no matter how far out you go out from body, shouldnt be possible to lift it above ground. so if you look into a steep hill it will but above you but still on ground. not into the mountaint and not working. (have this problem alot when useing distraction in DF.
If you /groundset 1500 700 units infront of the keep, it should just be put at the ground outside the keep wall

I also would love to be able to put out negative groundset (behind you)

Thu 9 May 2019 1:17 PM by stinsfire

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:06 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:08 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 11:56 AM
Shouldnt be possible to cast spells vs stuff You cant see.

If your not on flat terrain IT should just work same as it was

I am a bit confused. About both sentences (maybe i am misunderstanding what you are trying to say)

a) so you want all non-LOS GTAE casts to be removed from the game? Aka nerfing the classes/speclines that have them?

b) what do you mean with "not on flat terrain"? (even disregarding that the "flat area" directly in front of a keep door maybe isn't 100%flat) An animist taking a few steps back onto the slope could put his groundtarget up and circumvent the restriction easily. All while the server needs to constantly check if people are on flat or sloped terrain?

A) yeah, if you cant see it you cant cast.
B) i mean that the groundset in horizontal direction should work at groundlevel no matter how far out you go out from body, shouldnt be possible to lift it above ground. so if you look into a steep hill it will but above you but still on ground. not into the mountaint and not working. (have this problem alot when useing distraction in DF.
If you /groundset 1500 700 units infront of the keep, it should just be put at the ground outside the keep wall

I also would love to be able to put out negative groundset (behind you)

a) but the whole point of gtaoe nukes was being able to nuke people behind walls or on doors. If you implement los check for gtaoe it becomes a shitty 5s cd version of the aoe you have anyway as Fire wizz/RC runie/Etc.

Thu 9 May 2019 1:20 PM by Sepplord

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:06 PM
A) yeah, if you cant see it you cant cast.
B) i mean that the groundset in horizontal direction should work at groundlevel no matter how far out you go out from body, shouldnt be possible to lift it above ground. so if you look into a steep hill it will but above you but still on ground. not into the mountaint and not working. (have this problem alot when useing distraction in DF.
If you /groundset 1500 700 units infront of the keep, it should just be put at the ground outside the keep wall

I also would love to be able to put out negative groundset (behind you)

Okay got it now, well regarding A) i am heavily against nerfing/stripping abilities from multiple classes just because animist shrooming windows is a persistant problem. These spells are part of classes/speccs and are balanced via lower delves and/or cooldowns. There are more GTAE spells than just TWF and shrooms.

B) seems to be more of a technical issue. The groundtarget dissapearing on a slope (yes i know that from DF mainly too...but it happens on most sloped areas) isn't intentional but a problem with the way the ground is coded. I am not knowledgeable enough how it works exactly, but i would think reworking/fixing that is a huge issue, probably requiring terrain reworks everywhere.
It stopping at the keepwall would also require the GT itself to do collision detection which could be a pandorras box on top of being a lot of work to code. I am sure there are better solutions, since it really is only a problem with shrooms (afaik)

Thu 9 May 2019 2:08 PM by Lillebror

stinsfire wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:17 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:06 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 12:08 PM
I am a bit confused. About both sentences (maybe i am misunderstanding what you are trying to say)

a) so you want all non-LOS GTAE casts to be removed from the game? Aka nerfing the classes/speclines that have them?

b) what do you mean with "not on flat terrain"? (even disregarding that the "flat area" directly in front of a keep door maybe isn't 100%flat) An animist taking a few steps back onto the slope could put his groundtarget up and circumvent the restriction easily. All while the server needs to constantly check if people are on flat or sloped terrain?

A) yeah, if you cant see it you cant cast.
B) i mean that the groundset in horizontal direction should work at groundlevel no matter how far out you go out from body, shouldnt be possible to lift it above ground. so if you look into a steep hill it will but above you but still on ground. not into the mountaint and not working. (have this problem alot when useing distraction in DF.
If you /groundset 1500 700 units infront of the keep, it should just be put at the ground outside the keep wall

I also would love to be able to put out negative groundset (behind you)

a) but the whole point of gtaoe nukes was being able to nuke people behind walls or on doors. If you implement los check for gtaoe it becomes a shitty 5s cd version of the aoe you have anyway as Fire wizz/RC runie/Etc.

No because your able to aoe while not being in melee range your self. Thats a big diffrense

Thu 9 May 2019 2:53 PM by relvinian

You can safely stand back and place shrooms inside the lord room window with no risk to yourself.

You can place turrets inside the lord room window with no risk to yourself.

All that stuff is on aggro and firing through walls.

shit is hitting you all over the keep. sure you can mez the pile but they can just add a new pet.

You can aoe the pile, they can just make more.

You have to make it so you cannot target that window with gtaoe.

That is ur fix. also will stop some of the twf abuse.

Thu 9 May 2019 5:02 PM by dbeattie71

Just took the ck in Cale and a Necro was somehow nuking ram operator from inside the tower. Quick delete Necros.

Thu 9 May 2019 6:25 PM by Freudinio

Hibs get rolled by a couple of necros. Cries for a nerf. Admins roll out a nerf in a matter of hours (followed by more nerfs, how quaint).

Albs get rolled by exploiting animists. Ruled as fine.

Please keep telling me how there is no bias here.

lol.

Thu 9 May 2019 6:49 PM by Sleepwell

Is AOE through doors/walls intended? by any class? sm/wiz/animist? I was sure that it had been fixed, but we ran into it 2 nights ago at Glen. Several of us sent in a report with screenshots and video, but maybe its working as intended? Animist was hitting us on the ram through a closed door with AOE from main pet.

Thu 9 May 2019 11:13 PM by relvinian

Necro pets can aoe through doors and also walls.

Leave it, fix it, whichever.

BUT Necro pets can't be cast into a window and then shoom through walls from there.

I posted about necro pets and ra potential abuses as well as reporting it in bugs.

Was changed. If i were an animist i would have reported issues with the class as well.

Fri 10 May 2019 7:46 AM by Sepplord

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 2:08 PM
stinsfire wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:17 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Thu 9 May 2019 1:06 PM
A) yeah, if you cant see it you cant cast.
B) i mean that the groundset in horizontal direction should work at groundlevel no matter how far out you go out from body, shouldnt be possible to lift it above ground. so if you look into a steep hill it will but above you but still on ground. not into the mountaint and not working. (have this problem alot when useing distraction in DF.
If you /groundset 1500 700 units infront of the keep, it should just be put at the ground outside the keep wall

I also would love to be able to put out negative groundset (behind you)

a) but the whole point of gtaoe nukes was being able to nuke people behind walls or on doors. If you implement los check for gtaoe it becomes a shitty 5s cd version of the aoe you have anyway as Fire wizz/RC runie/Etc.
No because your able to aoe while not being in melee range your self. Thats a big diffrense

Firewizz/RC runies have to be in meleerange for their other AOE-Nukes?

ops:
Your comment seems to compare it to PBAE-spells, but there are more AE-spells classes have (and the listed examples don't have PBAOE)

PBAOE: very high dmg+spammable / no castrang+ needs LOS
AOE: long range+spammable / medium dmg+needs LOS
GTAOE: long range+no LOS / low dmg+not spammable

You are trying to make GTAOE into a shitty version of AOE, GTAOE is a ruppting and scouting tool (and to some extent an unstealthing tool). You don't die to it's dmg unless you don't move AND don't have healers

Fri 10 May 2019 8:40 AM by Lillebror

Im fine with letting them have no "cool down" if they gotta have LOS

Fri 10 May 2019 9:03 AM by Sepplord

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 8:40 AM
Im fine with letting them have no "cool down" if they gotta have LOS

that would change this:
AOE: long range+spammable / medium dmg+needs LOS
GTAOE: long range+no LOS / low dmg+not spammable

to this:
AOE: long range+spammable / medium dmg+needs LOS
GTAOE: long range+spammable / low dmg+needs LOS

I get it, you don't like the concept of GTAOE. Completely removing any usefullness from a type of skills ingame though requires a few more arguments imo to be considered anything more than a whine.

Fri 10 May 2019 9:47 AM by Lillebror

No risk no reward and you can also increase the impact gtaoe does too.

I just dont like the concept of not be able to see your attacker.
and a trade off for spammable vs not if it requier LOS is a fine trade off.

Fri 10 May 2019 11:10 AM by Acidbath88

LOL The shrooms here are shit, remember on live when they were everywhere and you got insta killed as a norm? yea that was complaint worthy.

Fri 10 May 2019 11:18 AM by Sepplord

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 9:47 AM
No risk no reward and you can also increase the impact gtaoe does too.

I just dont like the concept of not be able to see your attacker.
and a trade off for spammable vs not if it requier LOS is a fine trade off.

I really don't get why this is so hard to understand: With your change they are either useless (because less damage than standard-AOE) or the new strongAOE (because more damage than standard-AOE). At equal damage GTAOE-classes now have two identical spells, which also doesn't make sense.

It removes utility from classes without giving them anything.
I don't think the speclines that have GTAOE in them need across the board nerfs. If that's what you want i guess we just have to agre to disagree on this topic

Fri 10 May 2019 12:45 PM by Lillebror

target player aoe and target groundtarget aoe (both with req of LOS) still got diffrent uses.

Its plain bad when you can stand watching into the wall inside milegate door and nuke ppl upstairs due to you have a gt macro on your qbar.
Or GT's provided by Assassins even you cant get there or see them your self.

Fri 10 May 2019 1:51 PM by Sepplord

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Fri 10 May 2019 12:45 PM
target player aoe and target groundtarget aoe (both with req of LOS) still got diffrent uses.

Its plain bad when you can stand watching into the wall inside milegate door and nuke ppl upstairs due to you have a gt macro on your qbar.
Or GT's provided by Assassins even you cant get there or see them your self.

Good point on the first statement, i admit i didn't think of that. I step back a bit from my previous statement.

Why are the below examples plain bad though? Assassins providing GTs for coordinated attacks that include stealthers into zergwarfare is a bad thing?
Bombgrps being untouchable in contorted spaces is a good thing?
Healers heal without vision too (and not with some niche healspell on long cooldown, permanently with some of their strongest heals). Without GTAE there would be no options at all against them healing from complete safety.

Wed 15 May 2019 8:24 PM by relvinian

112 hibs took dc.

Every single window had forest hearts in it. I could not stand NEAR the keep door without being attacked.

Drop the maelstroms and the twf and send your pets in. Put turrets in windows.

There was no place to STAND without taking damage.

Discussing it in advice chat i was told gms will do nothing unless u show them a video and give them animist names.

I dunno, what is the policy?

But if you can't find a place to stand without taking damage how can you write animist names, you know the ones you can't even see because they are placing their pets into the windows from the bottom of the tower?

Wed 15 May 2019 8:43 PM by sirmick

relvinian wrote: But if you can't find a place to stand without taking damage how can you write animist names, you know the ones you can't even see because they are placing their pets into the windows from the bottom of the tower?

I don't know what the policy on animist turrets are, but I do have a solution to your name issue: just die.

Animist FnF turrets can't -not- nuke you to death, and the killspam is attributed to the controlling animist. So, stand and find a nice spot to die to the (illegally placed?) turrets, check the killspam log, go on the herald to make sure that character is actually an animist, record the name, and get a friendly realmmate to rez you (yay rez rp's!) and repeat for the other windows/animists.

It's very tedious to do, but assuming you are correct in that this is illegal behavior, you really only need to do it once (and have people banned/rps removed once) before people get the message. If it isn't illegal behavior or if the rule is not enforced, you also really only need to do it once (and be ignored/given clarification) to have your proper answer!

There's your solution. Now, if you are brave and bold enough, go forth and collect your names! FOR SCIENCE!