Suggestions for stealth equality

Hello. Reading through the forums I see alot of posts regarding stealth inequality. Its mainly Archers having a disadvantage that might be too big when facing Assassins.

The three main issues seem to be stealth detection, PA opener and So Envenom. So here are my takes on some solutions.

The first thing that I think is needed is equal stealth detection and run speed for the same points invested. Aldo I think the current stealth system works well. Er do not need any MOS/Truesight RAs cause they create more issues than they fix. We just need detection to be equal.

Second issue is that with stealth detection requiring close range, an encounter between two stealthers will always start in the prefferred range for Assassins. And further more they have a chance to get the CS openers off for an even greater advantage. While equal stealth detection will make it easier for the Archer to avoid and opener, the encounter would still be in favour of the Assassin. So why not make Archers immune to CS openers while stealthed? Or just make CS openers unusable against a stealthed opponent? CS would ofcourse be less effektive in stealth wars, but its still really good against visibles. Perhaps CS could be improved slightly against armored opponents to compensate in order to male the line still be worth investing in.

Last thing is Envenom. My suggestion here is to give Archers something along the lines og remedy (timered poison immunity/clear) or a flat passive % decrease to poison effectiveness. Perhaps as a RA.

Ofcourse having All these changes implented might be over the top. So optimally they should be implemented one at a time untill desired balance was acheived. I do firmly beleive equal detection would be fair.

Sun 5 May 2019 8:05 PM by Lillebror

Dont think Archers need much else than equal detection range vs the Assassins
That and give them rapid fire as on Uthgard (They got some arrows off in melee)

No PA or Remedy would change to the stealth melee king to Ranger i guess.
Maybe Archers should be able to get PD (again very good for rangers)

Sun 5 May 2019 8:39 PM by Sepplord

Hunters/scouts need to be buffed to rangerlevel, and they need more/better incentives to spec bow over 35

Remedy or NoPA are completely ridiculous ideas imo

Sun 5 May 2019 9:42 PM by Milchschnidde

playing a ranger, the archer simply need some escape skill even the rangers speed shout is garbage, long duration cooldown and breakable .. you cant run away when on disease etc. Yes its a great skill to chase somebody every now and there where you could use it, but other then that its crap. you cant pass any Wall/milegate save, you cannot use "panic" oh shit button of vanish and escape through the enemys.

archer cannot climb walls which is stupid, they only get savefall I which is somehow okay - why the heck does ministrel get everything like melee assassins + SOS and IP combination, you cannot kill high RR mini with those skills ready ...they do not vanish but do the same things to escape

. Archer = No escape... your critshot does not penetrate bubbles etc.

Tue 7 May 2019 2:10 PM by Hangel

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 5 May 2019 9:42 PM
playing a ranger, the archer simply need some escape skill even the rangers speed shout is garbage, long duration cooldown and breakable .. you cant run away when on disease etc. Yes its a great skill to chase somebody every now and there where you could use it, but other then that its crap. you cant pass any Wall/milegate save, you cannot use "panic" oh shit button of vanish and escape through the enemys.

archer cannot climb walls which is stupid, they only get savefall I which is somehow okay - why the heck does ministrel get everything like melee assassins + SOS and IP combination, you cannot kill high RR mini with those skills ready ...they do not vanish but do the same things to escape . Archer = No escape... your critshot does not penetrate bubbles etc.

Tue 7 May 2019 2:41 PM by cere2

Yeah the stealth detection thing has been a joke since the get go.

Making it the same range is the solution. Remedy as an RA that reduces poison effectiveness by a % per level?
I could see that working. Might be a waste of RA's for some but others like melee/ranger may choose that over other things.

The king of stealth being a melee ranger is definitely a possibility. Was that way on Live if they chose to spec that way.
But they also got rolled on quite bad by casters since they had no bow skills.
You know the rock/paper/scissor thing....

Tue 7 May 2019 2:47 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:41 PM
Yeah the stealth detection thing has been a joke since the get go.

Making it the same range is the solution. Remedy as an RA that reduces poison effectiveness by a % per level?
I could see that working. Might be a waste of RA's for some but others like melee/ranger may choose that over other things.

The king of stealth being a melee ranger is definitely a possibility. Was that way on Live if they chose to spec that way.
But they also got rolled on quite bad by casters since they had no bow skills.
You know the rock/paper/scissor thing....

the problem with ranger being the meleeking is though that even low bowspec is far more bowspec than what an assasin has as ranged capability (maybe comparable to NS...i don't know?). What reason would there be to play any assassin, if you can become the king of stealthmelee while also getting even the tiniest ranged capabilities?

PS: why do meleerangers get rolled by casters? any melee shits on casters unless they MOC

Tue 7 May 2019 4:49 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:47 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 2:41 PM
Yeah the stealth detection thing has been a joke since the get go.

Making it the same range is the solution. Remedy as an RA that reduces poison effectiveness by a % per level?
I could see that working. Might be a waste of RA's for some but others like melee/ranger may choose that over other things.

The king of stealth being a melee ranger is definitely a possibility. Was that way on Live if they chose to spec that way.
But they also got rolled on quite bad by casters since they had no bow skills.
You know the rock/paper/scissor thing....

the problem with ranger being the meleeking is though that even low bowspec is far more bowspec than what an assasin has as ranged capability (maybe comparable to NS...i don't know?). What reason would there be to play any assassin, if you can become the king of stealthmelee while also getting even the tiniest ranged capabilities?

PS: why do meleerangers get rolled by casters? any melee shits on casters unless they MOC

Low bowspec is worthless. Yes it's more than assassin, but ranger is meleeking on a timer. without IP/purge/2 insta heals...they typically are not winning unless vs lower RR.

What reason is there to make an assassin if one class can kill them? What? I could ask the same question for any class. Are you saying nothing should be the scissors to assassins?
On Live if you didn't have some ranged opener vs caster that did some serious damage, you were easily kiteable/killable as straight up melee archer.
Assassins have Blur and some other tricks to keep casters @ melee range. Full melee spec rangers don't.

Tue 7 May 2019 5:02 PM by Milchschnidde

you simply do not have PA + stun combo as melee Ranger, so you are in disadvantage same for the firststrike every assassin sees you in a greater distance .. i often get PA in stealth...+

I do not want the Ranger to be an all trades Stealther but you are good and bad at both bow and close combat.

In close combat you are simply like a lesser blademaster in every aspect.
In range you are not bad, but for not beeing able to 1 hit oder 2 hit caster, i dont know if 50 bow is worth something.

Basicly i run 35 bow 39 blade 29 CD , Pathfinding (currently 31) seems to become garbage with buffpotion upgrade. I loose most duels against assassins if i would win they simply vanish and escape. Ministrel simply IP + SOS away same for skald. I only win melee duells against most other Archer classes and/or a few non mocing caster/supporter.
Bd's will often RIP you (if they are above RR 4 for sure, because pets auto chase you and reach you faster then any "normal" char could do.
Necromancer will RIP you too much absorb, same for Friar, Reaver etc. (I am just RR4 and run into a lot of issues)

But far from beeing too strong in duels i have no escapes, scout could slam and try sprint away if the other would not purge the stun.

Wed 8 May 2019 6:17 AM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:49 PM
What reason is there to make an assassin if one class can kill them? What? I could ask the same question for any class. Are you saying nothing should be the scissors to assassins?

You are ridiculously twisting my words. I never said anything close to that, and you know that.

Ranger becoming the King of stealth was YOUR words, which i commented on. And as always when called out on a ridiculous idea you move the goalpost.
Shortrange detection for all the same doesn't neccessarily make ranger the king of stealth though, your other ideas do and you have already literally said that you think that would be a good idea. but yeah.... I am the one with bias problems

Why should there be ANY King of stealth? You don't want balance, you just want to tip the scales in your direction

Wed 8 May 2019 10:47 AM by gotwqqd

I think assassins are a bit overpowered
I agree with detection.

I think a balancing factor would be that envenom should only fire if the envenom level is @ or lower than the SPECCED level....no bonus from rr or gear

Wed 8 May 2019 11:02 AM by Turano

Assassins ARE the kings of stealth, that was and has always been the intent of this classes. They pay for that by having very limited ranged capabilities.

Having the same stealth detection for all stealthers classes will surely help out the balance though

Wed 8 May 2019 1:45 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 6:17 AM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 4:49 PM
What reason is there to make an assassin if one class can kill them? What? I could ask the same question for any class. Are you saying nothing should be the scissors to assassins?

You are ridiculously twisting my words. I never said anything close to that, and you know that.

Ranger becoming the King of stealth was YOUR words, which i commented on. And as always when called out on a ridiculous idea you move the goalpost.
Shortrange detection for all the same doesn't neccessarily make ranger the king of stealth though, your other ideas do and you have already literally said that you think that would be a good idea. but yeah.... I am the one with bias problems

Why should there be ANY King of stealth? You don't want balance, you just want to tip the scales in your direction

"What reason would there be to play any assassin, if you can become the king of stealthmelee while also getting even the tiniest ranged capabilities?"

Obviously if you can't stand behind what you said then don't say it. How am I twisting your words? Perhaps rephrase them so it doesn't sound like you mean what you say.

"And as always when called out on a ridiculous idea you move the goalpost."

What are you calling me out on that I am moving the goalpost on?
It looks to me like you can't justify anything or even back up your own statements so you start pulling things from thin air?

What "other ideas" are you referring to that I came up with?
Stealth detection being the same? Oh no! That is game changing....ffs.
I said yes Ranger can become stealthking on a 15 minute timer. Already is that way on Live if they spec full melee.
Obviously you haven't played live for the last 10 years and have no clue about the way this game progressed.
It's not that I want there to be a king of stealth as an archer, I just want archers not to be fodder for assassin's.
And at the moment they are.

Wed 8 May 2019 2:19 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: How am I twisting your words

By paraphrasing this :

Sepplord wrote: What reason would there be to play any assassin, if you can become the king of stealthmelee while also getting even the tiniest ranged capabilities?

into this:

cere2 wrote: What reason is there to make an assassin if one class can kill them?

Do you really not see the difference in these two statements?

Regarding standing by your own words...i do that. So please do not paraphrase me if you are unable to do that without chaniging the meaning.
Ironically you do not stand by your words, and change/add things without acknowledging that you misworded what you wanted to say before or that you changed your mind.

cere2 wrote: I said yes Ranger can become stealthking on a 15 minute timer.

See, here you are claiming you included "on a 15minute timer" in your first statement. Let's take a look at your initial comment that started the argument between us two:

cere2 wrote: Yeah the stealth detection thing has been a joke since the get go.

Making it the same range is the solution. Remedy as an RA that reduces poison effectiveness by a % per level?
I could see that working. Might be a waste of RA's for some but others like melee/ranger may choose that over other things.

The king of stealth being a melee ranger is definitely a possibility. Was that way on Live if they chose to spec that way.
But they also got rolled on quite bad by casters since they had no bow skills.
You know the rock/paper/scissor thing....

I quoted the whole thing, so everyone can see i am not taking something out of context or leaving information out. I don't see any mention of cooldowns or even a specific timerange of 15minutes.

My efforts to refute the bullsh** you make up about me is much harder than your efforts to make it up, so i won't go further and adress every single issue you claim to not understand. Especially the first example of you twisting my woirds is something a fourthgrader should be able to see, you acting like you can't understand what i mean makes me believe you are doing it on purpose, so take this sincere FU as expression how i feel about you now. Good luck influencing balance changes following the trump strategy...it can be effective, i have to sadly admit.

Wed 8 May 2019 2:26 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:19 PM
cere2 wrote: How am I twisting your words

By paraphrasing this :
Sepplord wrote: What reason would there be to play any assassin, if you can become the king of stealthmelee while also getting even the tiniest ranged capabilities?

into this:
cere2 wrote: What reason is there to make an assassin if one class can kill them?

Do you really not see the difference in these two statements? Not really no, anyone can read that and know what you are referring to

Regarding standing by your own words...i do that. So please do not paraphrase me if you are unable to do that without chaniging the meaning.
Ironically you do not stand by your words, and change/add things without acknowledging that you misworded what you wanted to say before or that you changed your mind.
cere2 wrote: I said yes Ranger can become stealthking on a 15 minute timer.
See, here you are claiming you included "on a 15minute timer" in your first statement. Let's take a look at your initial comment that started the argument between us two:
cere2 wrote: Yeah the stealth detection thing has been a joke since the get go.

Making it the same range is the solution. Remedy as an RA that reduces poison effectiveness by a % per level?
I could see that working. Might be a waste of RA's for some but others like melee/ranger may choose that over other things.

The king of stealth being a melee ranger is definitely a possibility. Was that way on Live if they chose to spec that way.
But they also got rolled on quite bad by casters since they had no bow skills.
You know the rock/paper/scissor thing....

I quoted the whole thing, so everyone can see i am not taking something out of context or leaving information out. I don't see any mention of cooldowns or even a specific timerange of 15minutes. So I said ranger being stealthking is possibility, then I said on a 15 min timer. You got me there whoa! What ever was I thinking

My efforts to refute the bullsh** you make up about me is much harder than your efforts to make it up, so i won't go further and adress every single issue you claim to not understand. Especially the first example of you twisting my woirds is something a fourthgrader should be able to see, you acting like you can't understand what i mean makes me believe you are doing it on purpose, so take this sincere FU as expression how i feel about you. Good luck influencing balance changes following the trump strategy...it can be effective, i have to sadly admit.

Ahh resorts to name calling because he can't represent himself. And I am the fourth grader.

We all know you main an SB, so whatever bud. Your most likely afraid of not having the PA advantage like you enjoy now.

Wed 8 May 2019 2:34 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:26 PM

Ahh resorts to name calling because he can't represent himself. And I am the fourth grader.

We all know you main an SB, so whatever bud. Your most likely afraid of not having the PA advantage like you enjoy now.
[/quote]

I said a fourth grader would understand the difference

again reading comprehension skills: F

I also play SB, never tried to hide that. Ironic that you mention PA-advantage though...since my SB doesn't even have PA

Wed 8 May 2019 2:37 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:34 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:26 PM

Ahh resorts to name calling because he can't represent himself. And I am the fourth grader.

We all know you main an SB, so whatever bud. Your most likely afraid of not having the PA advantage like you enjoy now.

I said a fourth grader would understand the difference

again reading comprehension skills: F

I also play SB, never tried to hide that. Ironic that you mention PA-advantage though...since my SB doesn't even have PA

[/quote]

You just said you switched from CS to LA in a post TODAY! LOL....just quit trying. So much fail.

Wed 8 May 2019 2:45 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:37 PM
You just said you switched from CS to LA in a post TODAY! LOL....just quit trying. So much fail.

Yes, exactly, so how am i afraid to lose PA-advantage if i have already respecced out of having PA before you accused me??

Thanks for looking for that proof yourself, i was expecting you to just outright make up new lies, instead of acknowledging that my statement was true.

Wed 8 May 2019 2:52 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:45 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:37 PM
You just said you switched from CS to LA in a post TODAY! LOL....just quit trying. So much fail.

Yes, exactly, so how am i afraid to lose PA-advantage if i have already respecced out of having PA before you accused me??
Thanks for looking for that proof yourself, i was expecting you to just outright make up new lies, instead of acknowledging that my statement was true.

Your right, I should have said you are scared of losing your stealth detection range advantage.
That better?
Grats on getting high enough RR to switch from CS to LA tho. Wonder how many PA's that took.

Oh and for this statement,
"Good luck influencing balance changes following the trump strategy...it can be effective, i have to sadly admit."
Thanks, I'll take it.

Wed 8 May 2019 3:06 PM by Sepplord

cere2 wrote: ↑
Wed 8 May 2019 2:52 PM
Your right, I should have said you are scared of losing your stealth detection range advantage.
That better?
Grats on getting high enough RR to switch from CS to LA tho. Wonder how many PA's that took.

Oh and for this statement,
"Good luck influencing balance changes following the trump strategy...it can be effective, i have to sadly admit."
Thanks, I'll take it.

Hey...you learned, you didn't simply claim that you have always said that. I see we are making progress

I don't know how many PAs it took, but a huge part was made in DF on levelers, so i don't think PA was a huge factor there

The amount of archers (talking about the real enemies here, 50,temped, similar RR) i fought on my SB is incredibly low, probably less than 10.
I have fought ten times more assassins on my hunter, than archers on my SB, despite having a much lower RR/playtime.

I wonder, if i would keep up with this discussion, how far you would keep moving the goalpost to "get me"... but i'm got stuff to do now.
I would say cu, but i really wish i wouldn't