Charge Buffs - Request for Suggestions

Charges as we have them right now are mostly fine in groups with a normal buffer: most people don't charge anything, many people charge one thing, few people charge 2 things. Usually spec af is charged and in case of caster acuity or in case of some str based melees spec dex. Also fine: the buff potions

However, in small groups or when running solo it feels as if it is required to charge as much as possible, that means spec af, and either of spec str or spec dex at a minimum followed by the other of the two asap as well as keeping up all the other things like damage shield and damage add. This either forces people to wait for 2 charge times or make them start a run with a disadvantage compared to someone who charges. In any case, due to the existence of charges solo people are / feel forced to charge as much as possible driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable (the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone).

My opinion, that's shared with some staff members, is that it would be nice to somehow get to a point where the charge timer is not used for long duration buffs but for something that's used in combat, examples just to get the point across: magic + melee ablative, 30s secondary melee / magic resist or even a hot. Those new charge things could even be on another, separate timer so that heal / mana charges would still be usable. The advantage of such a situation would be that the items providing charges are still very desirable while there is no feeling of being forced to wait until one is fully charged up or that one wasted 50g on a run just to get zerged 10 seconds later as charges are only used on demand in a fight.

An alternative to the above would be the removal of buff charges entirely.

However, even if people agree that either of the above would be a desirable situation there would be a couple changes required to not really change the group play:
1) Lifting of the 20 buff limit
2) Increasing the available conc
3) Giving bards and healer spec af

Then there would still be the problem of what to do with the charge items people already have / their feather investments. Buff charge items are a huge part of why people raid / what people buy, it would hence be required to make those items have / do something that still makes them desirable / that there is an appropriate alternative for the same amount of feathers (in which case either a feather refund would be needed or a trade in for whatever the alternative is).

The reason nothing has happened is that we are unsure what to do with the existing items.
A potentially slightly weird solution would be the removal of mastery of arcane (reintroduced OF ra due to lack of buff bonus) and introduction of reverse buff bonus that would affect all buffs casted on you, including the buff potion, instead of the normal buff bonus that works on outgoing buffs. This could be introduced as additional "gems" that can be added onto existing armor / accessories and would be available for feathers as well as tradeable for the existing charge items.
This would change the buff potion values to about 86 for stats where base and spec is available compared to the 101 currently available via potion base and charge spec.

Since we cannot really find a consensus internally, we'd like to have some more community input on the matter.

A couple things to keep in mind:
This is not about buff potions, those are considered fine
Increasing the charge duration would not help as it would even exacerbate the problem as now everyone would be expected to literally charge everything
Reducing the charge cost would only help the cost factor and also slightly exacerbate the problem as again, now everyone would charge more
Making charges free and only allowing a single charge would devalue the charge items as now everyone only needs a single one
This is not about alternative charge buffs but the mechanic / goal itself.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 1:03 PM by djegu

Why don't you do the same thing as RP bonus pot ? When you die it doesn't fade away, you keep that buff for the duration of the potion, also reduce the re-use timer to 1mn.
Also make barrel for haste/shield called combined re-inforcement for 75 feathers.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 1:27 PM by Elekur

How about you make Charges cheaper and the combined force potion cheaper then instead of implementing too much new stuff?

Charging is already easy and gold isnt really a problem on this Server

Sat 20 Apr 2019 1:35 PM by phixion

I posted a few months ago about reducing the cost of charges and was told by staff that charges were considered "luxury" items so I was expected to pay up.

I think anyone familiar with this game knows full well that the moment you introduced charges they became a requirement to compete solo, this is not a new thing... people will do anything for the slightest advantage and charges are more than a slight advantage.

I estimate I've spent up to 50p recharging so far and find it ridiculous that on a server with such QoL, this is still so outrageously expensive.

Removing stat buff charges is a bad idea in my opinion--Soloers are already at a disadvantage in regards to buffs available, removing charges will just widen that gap even more.

The game feels better to play with the stats charges, without them everything feels sluggish and slow. This would impact soloers and small mans massively.

A few things need to change:

- MAKE RECHARGING CHEAPER: Please, it is very frustrating to spend so much on charges only to die a minute in to your run.
- REMOVE THE COOLDOWN TIMER ON BUFFS FOR STAT CHARGES. Allow people to buff str/con, dex/qui and AF all together instead of being staggered every 2 minutes. Having to mess about like this is annoying. Buffs should be 1 and done.
- ALLOW CHARGE BUFFS TO PERSIST THROUGH DEATH OR REMOVE THEIR TIMER COMPLETELY AND ONLY REMOVE ON DEATH.
- PUT "HEAL" AND "DAMAGE ADD" CHARGES ON THEIR OWN COOLDOWN TIMERS: So they can be used in combat and not affected by other "stat" charges.

Last but not least, this isn't specific to Charges per se but more feather items.

Allow people to turn in their feather items in exchange for feathers (basically, a refund).

Sat 20 Apr 2019 1:45 PM by florin

First, I’m glad you and the staff are giving this so much thought. From a solo perspective - I run multiple charges and have multiple of the same items in inventory and yes it is a hassle. Here are some suggestions. Some classes will always run top of the line items and buffs all the toys in the bag. We can make it easier for everyone who runs solo to be optimally buffed.

1- increase time of charge to same as combined forces
2- keep buff after death
3-reduce cost of recharge
4- recharge bag command
5- reduce or remove cool down
6- allow charges to go on pets
7- combine haste and ds or both in draught form

Now if it’s intended that soloers drop a few plat a week on buffs and charges then I get it but otherwise feels like it’s a lot of farming for suboptimal playing experience

Sat 20 Apr 2019 1:48 PM by phixion

There is no doubt that soloers and small mans are "picked on" here in regards to running costs. I have friends who run in groups and they can get by forever on what I spend each week to maintain. That is simply unfair.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 1:51 PM by jelzinga_EU

* Add vendor to all PK's where you can buy unlimited duration STR/CON, DEX/QUI, Acuity, Spec-AF, Haste
* Add NPC where you can trade-in current charge-items to a currency of "Phoenix crap"
* Add tinctures you can add to existing jewelry which you buy with "Phoenix crap". These can be as listed below
* Change all current stat charge-items to charges appropriate to your liking, e.g. heal-HoT , damage-add, celerity, ablatives what not

Just pick something.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:00 PM by Padatoo

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:33 PM
A couple things to keep in mind:
This is not about buff potions, those are considered fine
Increasing the charge duration would not help as it would even exacerbate the problem as now everyone would be expected to literally charge everything
Reducing the charge cost would only help the cost factor and also slightly exacerbate the problem as again, now everyone would charge more
Making charges free and only allowing a single charge would devalue the charge items as now everyone only needs a single one
This is not about alternative charge buffs but the mechanic / goal itself.

Did you ever consider adding a "Reimbursement" NPC,which would give feathers (or latinum) for feather items handed in?

Option A,removing the charge timer, would also exacerbate the problem - only thing stopping me from juggling charges right now is the need to have the shared cooldown available for the combat charge (heal/add).
Without that cooldown , I would run with str/con ,d/q and AF charges 24/7.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:07 PM by florin

My suggestion in short is to try to fix the current system before creating a new project around re working charges. I personally don’t want it to feel like i50 with free stuff everywhere. Don’t forget the dark days of the stealther limits

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:10 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:33 PM
A potentially slightly weird solution would be the removal of mastery of arcane (reintroduced OF ra due to lack of buff bonus) and introduction of reverse buff bonus that would affect all buffs casted on you, including the buff potion, instead of the normal buff bonus that works on outgoing buffs. This could be introduced as additional "gems" that can be added onto existing armor / accessories and would be available for feathers as well as tradeable for the existing charge items.

How about instead of removing a useful RA for pet buffing people(pets keep seeing more and more nerfs) just remove those charges and replace them with your "buffs on self effectiveness"... This will also help with the self buffing classes who keep complaining their buffs aren't as good as charges...

And on an additional note, i know you said this wasn't about buff pots, but just give everyone the ability to self caste buff pots like champ buffs but give them an item token requirement purchasable from an npc because the current system is actually causing inflation and frustration.. Maybe also make the old charge items /use give these tokens at a reduced cost with recharging the item but have long cooldown for /use so people can benefit from having multiple charge items

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:13 PM by florin

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:10 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:33 PM
A potentially slightly weird solution would be the removal of mastery of arcane (reintroduced OF ra due to lack of buff bonus) and introduction of reverse buff bonus that would affect all buffs casted on you, including the buff potion, instead of the normal buff bonus that works on outgoing buffs. This could be introduced as additional "gems" that can be added onto existing armor / accessories and would be available for feathers as well as tradeable for the existing charge items.

How about instead of removing a useful RA for pet buffing people(pets keep seeing more and more nerfs) just remove those charges and replace them with your "buffs on self effectiveness"... This will also help with the self buffing classes who keep complaining their buffs aren't as good as charges...

And on an additional note, i know you said this wasn't about buff pots, but just give everyone the ability to self caste buff pots like champ buffs but give them an item token requirement purchasable from an npc because the current system is actually causing inflation and frustration.. Maybe also make the old charge items /use give these tokens at a reduced cost with recharging the item but have long cooldown for /use so people can benefit from having multiple charge items

Agreed - please no nerf mastery of arcane, it’s all we got against these absorb nerfs

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:17 PM by dbeattie71

Don’t forget that there are some classes, like the Ranger, that have the option to sacrifice other skill lines to spec in buffs. These are on a 20 min timer, for the Ranger anyway. Specing high in PF sometimes gives an advantage in fights where one of the opponents timers is down.

On the flip side, if I changes are made to make buffing easier and I can forgoe PF alltogether because I can achieve the same from charges, look out baby! I can bump CD up to 39 or higher.

Something to think about.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:23 PM by Bradekes

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:17 PM
Don’t forget that there are some classes, like the Ranger, that have the option to sacrifice other skill lines to spec in buffs. These are on a 20 min timer, for the Ranger anyway. Specing high in PF sometimes gives an advantage in fights where one of the opponents timers is down.

On the flip side, if I changes are made to make buffing easier and I can forgoe PF alltogether because I can achieve the same from charges, look out baby! I can bump CD up to 39 or higher.

Something to think about.

Everyone has mostly agreed that there is no need to spec PF right now as is... the only shining stars are movement speed and DA which will still cause people to put the same amount of points into PF regardless

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:26 PM by phixion

I would be in favour of buff NPCs for charges, cost should be far less than it is currently though.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:27 PM by Padatoo

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:33 PM
A couple things to keep in mind:
This is not about buff potions, those are considered fine
Increasing the charge duration would not help as it would even exacerbate the problem as now everyone would be expected to literally charge everything
Reducing the charge cost would only help the cost factor and also slightly exacerbate the problem as again, now everyone would charge more
Making charges free and only allowing a single charge would devalue the charge items as now everyone only needs a single one
This is not about alternative charge buffs but the mechanic / goal itself.

Did you ever consider adding a "Reimbursement" NPC,which would give feathers (or latinum) for feather items handed in?

I understand that going for option A will remove the difference between charge setup choices and make everyone run with all the charges available - how would that affect the self-buffing classes?

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:46 PM by waffel

In terms of refunding people if any changes are made:

Couldn’t you just make a quest, where the NPC would take the charged item and quest rewarding the appropriate feather reward?

Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:50 PM by Dindelion

I don't like the idea of adding new charges to "turn the tides of a battle" : For the record I was soloing on live and that's what live did through the years, adding more charges / double procs items etc etc, in the end it was more annoying than anything, fights were longer and longer, so more chances to get added and to not kill someone when outnumbered, and it added new dependencies (which we want to avoid right now).

I agree with phixion thought, if we want to reduce the hassle, we might as well put npc buffers for those buff charges. If you want to maintain the need to pay 10-20k feathers per charge item but with a new system, transposed into a NPC buffer, you could simply make the need to have "credit" for each buff : you have a feathers merchant which sells credit for each charge buffs, if you don't have them you can't buy them at the npc. Then the npc buffer sells each buff (and a token with all charge buffs so if someone wants them all he doesn't have to click X times) for some golds (iirc live was doing 15g for fullbuff charges). This would be way less annoying than charges, it would be much cheaper to use (golds per run) while still needing to get the same amount of feathers than before. Of course those charges buff should last til death.

If we do something like that, there would be a need to implement a full "base buff" potions though, because right now the fullbuff potion is kinda expensive and would be half useless with more available charges.

For existing items, either you put a refund merchant, or you give those "buff credit" to people owning the correct charge item.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:00 PM by Padatoo

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:33 PM
A potentially slightly weird solution would be the removal of mastery of arcane (reintroduced OF ra due to lack of buff bonus) and introduction of reverse buff bonus that would affect all buffs casted on you, including the buff potion, instead of the normal buff bonus that works on outgoing buffs. This could be introduced as additional "gems" that can be added onto existing armor / accessories and would be available for feathers as well as tradeable for the existing charge items.
This would change the buff potion values to about 86 for stats where base and spec is available compared to the 101 currently available via potion base and charge spec.

The gem would be added without the need to retemplate?

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:18 PM by

gruenesschaf

Padatoo wrote: The gem would be added without the need to retemplate?

Yes, it would basically be +x gems of which a single one can be added to any armor / accessory piece in addition to whatever is already on there

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:19 PM by dbeattie71

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:23 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 2:17 PM
Don’t forget that there are some classes, like the Ranger, that have the option to sacrifice other skill lines to spec in buffs. These are on a 20 min timer, for the Ranger anyway. Specing high in PF sometimes gives an advantage in fights where one of the opponents timers is down.

On the flip side, if I changes are made to make buffing easier and I can forgoe PF alltogether because I can achieve the same from charges, look out baby! I can bump CD up to 39 or higher.

Something to think about.

Everyone has mostly agreed that there is no need to spec PF right now as is... the only shining stars are movement speed and DA which will still cause people to put the same amount of points into PF regardless

Yeah, I don't pay much attention to what others say, rather I try it out and experiment and 50 PF works extremely well for me. Spec s/c charge stacks with Rangers spec str :O and it works really really well.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:20 PM by teiloh

On Mastery of the Arcane, keep it imo. It's a choice many buffers enjoy having available and pets don't need to be nerfed again.

Bards and Healers do not need Spec AF, this would have the effect of making Hibernia and midgard the only realms that can actually cast spec AF since Alb rarely has enough buffers available, typically grouping two acolytes as opposed to three Seers or naturalist. Frankly, both classes simply do not need buffs nor do their respective realms. Castable spec AF must remain an Alb only option. Likewise, the proliferation of spec AF as an expected buff in all realms would be in indirect paladin Nerf that effectively waters down the benefit of one of their most powerful chants. Spec AF being gated for mid and hib should remain as a feature, and I still question mythics decision to make it so widely available.

On charges, I think there is a general tediousness of needing to buff period. Sparing the imo best option of removing stat buffs from the game almost entirely, with automatic buffing built into charm and summon abilities or trees and scaling stats built into leveling, and finally with self buffing spell lines compensated in power - adding in a buff NPC with slightly reduced gold cost as opposed to the 10 gold charges, could be a possibility so long as it's relatively limited (in terms of how many buffs could be purchased). Also, in my opinion buffs should not be looked at as the in-game economies primary money sink. When the costs are so prohibitive, it almost creates a spend or farm to win sort of dynamic.

With regard to the proposed self buff bonus as opposed to mastery of Arcane, in my opinion I think this would act as something like a mandatory itemization or RA "tax" so to speak - players would feel compelled the sacrifice in order to cap the stat before investing more into other more interesting options. Or they would overlook it, entirely. This would have the effect of limiting player choice or introducing arbitrary choices.

As for new charges, anything new ought to share a timer with legion items or alchemy charges as to limit power creep imo. However more options for this already important charge slot would be interesting and fun.

IMO

1. Yes, add new interesting charges but have them share a timer with Legion/Stat Buff charges. Not having to juggle timers per Live would be nice
2. Limited buff NPCs could be considered as the gold sink, so players are no longer spending a huge amount of money and downtime maintaining buffs as you all mentioned.
3. Putting in a reimbursement NPC for nerfed/heavily altered items, that returns the feathers with a downward adjustment for lowered durability.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:33 PM by Citian

I dont see how a short and temporary buff would work other than to either exclude con buffs or include some kind of heal that could ensure the user would be at 100% hp after use. The heal ( if proportionate to the users hp ) would obviously be abused.

The "gems" in place of MoA sounds great if its available to every class for the price of feathers rather than RAs.

Realistically the charges are cumbersome because of cost and linked timers. To solve the economic problem you simply increase the duration or decrease the price to recharge or both if QOL is truly the aim. I dont believe you are aiming to change the initial investment. You can further simplify the situation by taking charge items off shared timers.

If you make these changes it will be cheap to be effective for long periods of time and being "zerged" shortly after popping timers will have basically zero effect.

Thanks for the consideration and thought on the subject matter guys/gals.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:44 PM by Yokahu

Thanks for looking into this; in my opinion this what is hurting the game the most from a solo/casual perspective.

Here is my suggestion:
1) remove charges (add an exchange mechanism to reimburse feathers)
2) (optional but recommended) add Buff NPC with same buffs/values as combined forces, but permanent until death
3) leave buff pots but increase their duration drastically, not its value

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:47 PM by florin

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:44 PM
Thanks for looking into this; in my opinion this what is hurting the game the most from a solo/casual perspective.

Here is my suggestion:
1) remove charges (add an exchange mechanism to reimburse feathers)
2) (optional but recommended) add Buff NPC with same buffs/values as combined forces, but permanent until death
3) leave buff pots but increase their duration drastically, not its value

How does this help a solo or casual if max you get blue buffs vs buffs from charges ?

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:50 PM by Yokahu

florin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:47 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:44 PM
Thanks for looking into this; in my opinion this what is hurting the game the most from a solo/casual perspective.

Here is my suggestion:
1) remove charges (add an exchange mechanism to reimburse feathers)
2) (optional but recommended) add Buff NPC with same buffs/values as combined forces, but permanent until death
3) leave buff pots but increase their duration drastically, not its value
How does this help a solo or casual if max you get blue buffs vs buffs from charges ?

Levels the play field and it doesn’t feel like a chore to farm to keep ALL ur charges up just to not be at a disadvantage.

Edit: Typo

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:52 PM by florin

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:50 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:47 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:44 PM
Thanks for looking into this; in my opinion this what is hurting the game the most from a solo/casual perspective.

Here is my suggestion:
1) remove charges (add an exchange mechanism to reimburse feathers)
2) (optional but recommended) add Buff NPC with same buffs/values as combined forces, but permanent until death
3) leave buff pots but increase their duration drastically, not its value
How does this help a solo or casual if max you get blue buffs vs buffs from charges ?

Levels the plain field and it doesn’t feel like a chore to farm to keep ALL ur charges up just to not be at a disadvantage.

It only levels it against other soloers - what if you go against a grouped person who has full buffs? Casuals and solos would get hit hard since so many soloers run in the zergs.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 3:57 PM by Lev

if you have something already running, one should always try to change little things. if that is possible to reach the goal.

IMO just give a way to reimburse items for feathers and limit charges to one of the buffing kind. nothing more needed.

this change can easily be reverted or tweaked if it does not bring the desired effect. if a complicated new system is introduced this might not be possible.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:04 PM by florin

Agree with small changes - personally am fine with the economy for now, raids still occur, items get bought - it’s epic chest d/q s/c legion. Major reason to go raid on at all if not crafting. Otherwise not sure people will bother much.

Plus some people like the pve aspect of earning their gear.

Simple tweaks to cost and timers and test for a week.

Setting up an elaborate npc / gem system can be a longer term solution if the tweaks don’t work.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:07 PM by phixion

I am really against adding more custom stuff, lets not turn this in to ToA 2.0. One of the primary reasons for people hating ToA (apart from all the PvE) was the multiple /use items and hassle they bring.

Fix the system we have and make it easier for people to maintain, more QoL is the answer.

As it stands I barely have enough room for anything, I am carrying 5 charge items, 2 buff barrels, 2 heal barrels, 5xhaste, 5xdmg shield, poisons and the most annoying of all, the hand in items, branches/snow/soil etc. It's too much.

IMO haste/dmg shield should be in in a 100 charge barrel together.

Charges from an NPC would be easier, it's essentially the same thing but with less hassle.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:11 PM by jonl

the charge system does not need any changes, if you are running solo or in a small man without a buffer you should need to use charge items to be full buffed, anything else doesnt make sense

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:12 PM by florin

phixion wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:07 PM
I am really against adding more custom stuff, lets not turn this in to ToA 2.0. One of the primary reasons for people hating ToA (apart from all the PvE) was the multiple /use items and hassle they bring.

Fix the system we have and make it easier for people to maintain, more QoL is the answer.

As it stands I barely have enough room for anything, I am carrying 5 charge items, 2 buff barrels, 2 heal barrels, 5xhaste, 5xdmg shield, poisons and the most annoying of all, the hand in items, branches/snow/soil etc. It's too much.

IMO haste/dmg shield should be in in a 100 charge barrel together.

Charges from an NPC would be easier, it's essentially the same thing but with less hassle.

I know where to find you by the trail of branches of Hibernia falling out of your bags

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:14 PM by Norad

leave charge timers as is, to not disrupt that balance buff classes give in groups and small mans. make recharge cost cheaper 1g/per charge instead of 10g/per charge. agree with above poster about adding too many new in combat /use items and going down the road toa went and why many people quit. keep it as(classic daoc feeling) is but make it more affordable for people.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:31 PM by Numatic

I dont have time to read 4 pages so I will really quickly put what I think.

Buff charges are required for solo duo and some smallman because they give an advantage and nobody likes to be left out. I believe a solution is simple.

1. Allow only 1 buff charge
2. Allow only 1 offensive charge (DD, damage add etc)
3. Heal charge seperate is fine.
4. Increase duration by 5mins and make them last through death.

Make people choose which buff charge they want to run with. For solo it wont effect them much when dealing with being rolled because buffed or unbuffed it dont matter at that point

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:41 PM by florin

Numatic wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:31 PM
I dont have time to read 4 pages so I will really quickly put what I think.

Buff charges are required for solo duo and some smallman because they give an advantage and nobody likes to be left out. I believe a solution is simple.

1. Allow only 1 buff charge
2. Allow only 1 offensive charge (DD, damage add etc)
3. Heal charge seperate is fine.
4. Increase duration by 5mins and make them last through death.

Make people choose which buff charge they want to run with. For solo it wont effect them much when dealing with being rolled because buffed or unbuffed it dont matter at that point

I’m not sure why anyone would advocate for a nerf for solos and causals. Buffs matter a lot even against a full group.

Here are two examples from yesterday from me.

I see a fgh medding on zone wall, firb is sitting- I go PA and cd and purge vanish - dead firby. Had I not been fully buffed, can’t say I woulda survived just another hit.

See a frosty lag out and his group leaves him, pa bam bam dead vanish as is group turns around.

Don’t advocate for your own nerfs nerds!

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:42 PM by Niix

<EDITS after talking to smart people>

My 2 cents:
[list=]Biggest issue is allowing multiple charges at once... limit the amount of charge buff items you can have active to 1... this most important change that needs to happen and removes the need for most of below (however, they can still be looked at for QoL). This change will force people into decisions and remove the perma SPEC AF problem, should be a luxury and not requirement... provide value again to the hybrids that have spec buff (aside from just not having to spend gold for buff)[/list]

[list=]Make charge items cheaper - 5g per charge[/list]
[list=]Increase 20 buff limit to 25 (and increase conc to compensate)[/list]
[list=]Separate the timer for charges from end/heal, but def not a big deal if you do the top item in list.[/list]
[list=]LOVED suggestion to add command to recharge all items in your bag, or increase the amount of charges on items, why I have to run with 3 Acuity charges in bag just make them have 30 charges

[/list]
[list=]Whatever you do, add NPC to return feather items for at least 75% original value[/list]

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:49 PM by florin

Niix wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:42 PM
My 2 cents:
[list=]Whatever you do, add NPC to return feather items for at least 75% original value[/list]
[list=]Make charge items cheaper - this is easiest fix and wouldn't require adjustments to persisting through death or increasing duration of buffs[/list]
[list=]Increase 20 buff limit to 25 (and remove conc limit), this is always just cancer to deal with and in groups you're always off by like 1-2 buffs... HOWEVER, the downside is fully buffed pets, would need some internal limit to or there may be balance implications[/list]
[list=]Separate the timer for charges so you can buff all charges at once, this in itself evens out the solo game and makes it manageable... if charges were cheaper and you could do this I would be interested in soloing, right now I just don't care enough to farm the gold to get zerged.[/list]
[list=]LOVED suggestion to add command to recharge all items in your bag, or increase the amount of charges on items, why I have to run with 3 Acuity charges in bag just make them have 30 charges [/list]

Re the charge command - I know at least one poor slob who went to recharge, hit accept and found out later that he had dropped the item instead.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:53 PM by Symond

I play mostly group play because I don’t have the time to farm enough money to maintain all buffs for solo play. When I solo, I use one combined forces and one spec buff that’s it. Having so many charges in the game make it very daunting for new/casual players, as the focus of 1v1 or small man rvr should be on class abilities, not a bunch of stuff in your bags to /use. My thoughts:

1. Allow merchant to buy back charge items for feathers.
2. Make all charges 20 minutes, but only allow 1 at a time. Make people choose between damage add or str con.
3. Reduce recharge cost to 1g or increase number of charges to 30.
4. Whatever solution you do, make sure to incentivize people to spec into self buff lines such as pathfinding etc.
5. Force people to wear charge items to use. /using 10 things form a bag is silly.
6. If not cheaper on recharger, Make charges rechargeable by player crafters.

If people want to do good in a small man, force them to invite a buffing class.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:03 PM by noobino

Self-buff and Grouping

- Adjust Mastery of Arcane points so you can more easily obtain a matching delve of charge items (75) with yellow con spec or self-buffs.
- Remove the buff limit, or increase it and also raise the concentration pool.

This will remove the need for charge items in full groups. This also encourages self-buff classes to pick up that RA and not have the need to use charge items if desired. That should be the benefit of playing a self-buff class.

Smallman and Solo

- Remove the 2 minute delay on all of the defensive-related buffs. IE; S/C, D/Q, AF and Acuity. However, keep the 2 minute timer on every combat-related charge. IE; Health, Pow, Endu, Dmg add, DD.
- Cut the recharge cost in half at minimum. Instead of spending 400g on 4x 10 recharges, It should cost me 200g at most for a full reset.

These changes will still entice people to have charge items in the event they're not running in a full group like soloing or smallmans. Removing the 2 minute juggle of at-least 3 charges is simply a QoL issue and keeping the 2 minute timer on offensive-related charges keeps a strategic element to the game on which charge to use.

Just a side-note: PLEASE allow us to combine the haste/dmg shield into a draught. Even if I have to make 10x of each I don't care. Just allow us to combine them. My bags will love you for it.

Thanks.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:04 PM by Halma

My vote would be to remove buff pots completely. It's just a "buffbot light" situation we're in. Hard to balance any class when you have to consider they could potentially be buffed as hell. It also weakens every self buffing class.

So what to do with the existing pots/charges...
I'd be completely fine with leaving them in pve zones as they are, make them a bit more potent even.
Changing them to a different combat use would just replace one mandatory buff with a different one.

Other than that... Don't really know.i don't like the idea of buffing everyone for free with NPCs as some classes profit a lot more than others from that.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:06 PM by florin

Symond wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 4:53 PM
I play mostly group play because I don’t have the time to farm enough money to maintain all buffs for solo play. When I solo, I use one combined forces and one spec buff that’s it. Having so many charges in the game make it very daunting for new/casual players, as the focus of 1v1 or small man rvr should be on class abilities, not a bunch of stuff in your bags to /use. My thoughts:

1. Allow merchant to buy back charge items for feathers.
2. Make all charges 20 minutes, but only allow 1 at a time. Make people choose between damage add or str con.
3. Reduce recharge cost to 1g or increase number of charges to 30.
4. Whatever solution you do, make sure to incentivize people to spec into self buff lines such as pathfinding etc.
5. Force people to wear charge items to use. /using 10 things form a bag is silly.
6. If not cheaper on recharger, Make charges rechargeable by player crafters.

If people want to do good in a small man, force them to invite a buffing class.

God no - would hate to play your server.

Forcing people to a play style and furthermore forcing a retemplate would be suicidal.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:13 PM by Symond

So it’s ok to exclude certain classes from small man but not ok to do the opposite and require them?

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:23 PM by Maggot

Keep it simple IMO, just reduce the cost of charges/buff pots, but please don't put buff charges and other types of charges like heal/damage add on a separate timer.

I think it's fair that you have to choose what exactly you charge and what not, some will choose to run fully buffed, others will keep room for their heal charge/damage add charge, depending on their build/playstyle. Of course, you can wait 8 minutes before you move out to have every buff charged AND room for a heal charge, and if someone wants to wait 8 minutes to have a slight advantage over me with only 1 charge active because I decided to immediately move out, power to them, I don't feel bad about that.

If you put spec buff charges and heal/dmg add etc on a different timer, everyone will just be running around with multiple items that can turn the fight around quite effectively and this is actually an indirect nerf to certain classes that are specialized in burst damage for example (in case of healing charges).

To me, it's already kind of dumb that someone who has no healing abilities built in his class and is close to death can pop a heal pot, a heal charge and heal half of his HP back. At least what I liked about DAoC is that not every class can do everything like in other MMOs, and by putting these on a different timer you're basically giving everyone always access to that heal charge and are slowly moving in that direction where every class can do everything.

If you do put in buff NPCs, I would say make the spec buffs *optionable* and for every spec buff that gets taken you increase the CD on using a different charge item by 2 minutes.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:34 PM by Redattack

From a purely solo perspective, I'd propose these changes:

-As pretty much everyone else is saying, an exchange/reimbursement NPC for charge items.
-Add haste/DS to combined forces pot, or combine them into their own pot with 100 charges. There is no reason why those in addition to combined forces should be clogging my bag.
-Change charges into short-term combat buffs, or just remove them entirely, and make the necessary adjustments as stated in the OP.

Now, if you want to want to help soloers/smallmans without impacting group play, I would also add another thing. From a technical perspective, I'm not sure if this would be possible, but I would also add a buff NPC (or potion like combined forces with 100 charges), with the catch that they only provide buffs to players that are not grouped. Or alternatively, provides buffs to everyone, but they get scaled down for each person you are grouped with, and anything over 4 people would just render the buffs entirely useless. These buffs would last until death, or last 20 min, but persist even after death. This NPC/pot would provide essentially all the same buffs that combined forces does (along with haste/DS.) As for cost, it would depend on whether they persist through death or not. If they do persist through death, I'd say 10-20g is a fair price. If not, I'd suggest 5g for visible solos, and 10g for stealthers. the reasoning being that visible solos have a tendency to die far more often than a stealther would, so the price would be roughly even over time.

What this change would do is give the option for solos/smallmans to maintain the buffs they need without clogging bag space with charges/pots, while also not changing the status quo for larger groups. Again, this is assuming that this is possible from the technical side of things.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:40 PM by Symond

At no point should a solo player be balanced vs a player in a group. IF you want to compete against grouped players, invite a Druid/cleric/ shaman.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:49 PM by gorakthemighty

whatever you do, please don't add even more must have charges

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:49 PM by florin

Symond wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:40 PM
At no point should a solo player be balanced vs a player in a group. IF you want to compete against grouped players, invite a Druid/cleric/ shaman.

This is where we can disagree. Thats an opinion.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:53 PM by Symond

florin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:49 PM
Symond wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:40 PM
At no point should a solo player be balanced vs a player in a group. IF you want to compete against grouped players, invite a Druid/cleric/ shaman.

This is where we can disagree. Thats an opinion.

Agreed. I don’t really support anti social behavior in an MMO is all. Off peak is already a ranger/hunter/scout Zerg fest and it kills rvr.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:00 PM by florin

Symond wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:53 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:49 PM
Symond wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 5:40 PM
At no point should a solo player be balanced vs a player in a group. IF you want to compete against grouped players, invite a Druid/cleric/ shaman.

This is where we can disagree. Thats an opinion.

Agreed. I don’t really support anti social behavior in an MMO is all. Off peak is already a ranger/hunter/scout Zerg fest and it kills rvr.

Meh - far too narrow minded to be generalizing solo or small man play as anti social. Perhaps it’s just anti buff class or anti visible. If a stealther solos it’s anti social, if they group up they suck. Way too judgmental.

Besides I’m not anti social - I add on every fight I can!

Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:18 PM by phixion

florin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:00 PM
Besides I’m not anti social - I add on every fight I can!

IGN so I know I can safely add you?

Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:43 PM by florin

phixion wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:18 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 6:00 PM
Besides I’m not anti social - I add on every fight I can!

IGN so I know I can safely add you?

Oh no I don’t wish to be the target of the Lone Vanisher!

Sat 20 Apr 2019 7:38 PM by Numatic

My personal opinion. I hate charges and pots. The way its implemented now I would be happier with a buffbot. At least then I wouldn't have to worry about having to farm plat just to support my charges.

I rarely ever group. I duo with my brother sometimes. It's because I cant dedicate time to a grp. My kid and my wife come first. So I'm usually solo. There will be times I'm running around in emain and I will have to get up and get something for my kid. I'll come back and be dead. Its just my life.

However dont think everyone solos because they are anti social (although I rarely chat with people here because honestly some of them are really weird) they do it out of time convenience. They dont have to worry about being 100% alert at all times and know their situation.

Having to spam a full set of charges to feel competitive reminds me of those Japanese RPGs where you have 10000 health potions and you just spam them endlessly to heal.

Whatever the devs decide, I just hope I dont have to deal with the juggling is all.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 7:44 PM by Auranyte

Ok I like the idea of the incoming buff bonus thing. Can toss that onto a Mythical slot Item that wouldn't need to add new gems or anything. Add the same bonus onto the Darkspire key/item as well so people won't complain about having to swap the items to buff in darkspire. It would also make it easier to remove it later without causing any future issues. Remove/Disable the item/bonus and nothing gets screwed up with our armor/jewelry.

The problem with a bonus like this, however, is that it doesn't change a thing. The bonus will more than likely still apply to charges meaning everyone still needs charges and the gap isn't closed. Depending on the bonus % it might end up allowing spec charges to hit the spec buff cap of 93.

So either buff bonus does not apply to charges or it applies to everything and you would need to increase the delve value of the spec buffs on the pot to even it out more.

On a similar note, can we get the a delve increase to some of the self buffer spec buffs? Thane seems fine with their lvl 41 str/con buff giving more than the str/con charge, and if the spec buff multiplier works on the lvl 50 buff as well that caps itself at 93. It would be nice for that curve to apply to Champion/Friar/Ranger/Hunter spec buffs as well. (Ranger base Str is fine as the top one caps at 62 if the spec multiplier works on it) Aug Healer self str/con buff seems to be the same as the Thane curve.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 8:35 PM by Animosity

phixion wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 1:35 PM
- MAKE RECHARGING CHEAPER: Please, it is very frustrating to spend so much on charges only to die a minute in to your run.
- REMOVE THE COOLDOWN TIMER ON BUFFS FOR STAT CHARGES. Allow people to buff str/con, dex/qui and AF all together instead of being staggered every 2 minutes. Having to mess about like this is annoying. Buffs should be 1 and done.
- ALLOW CHARGE BUFFS TO PERSIST THROUGH DEATH OR REMOVE THEIR TIMER COMPLETELY AND ONLY REMOVE ON DEATH.
- PUT "HEAL" AND "DAMAGE ADD" CHARGES ON THEIR OWN COOLDOWN TIMERS: So they can be used in combat and not affected by other "stat" charges.

Last but not least, this isn't specific to Charges per se but more feather items.

Allow people to turn in their feather items in exchange for feathers (basically, a refund).

Agree with Phixion, think these are the best solutions.

Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:21 PM by dbeattie71

Numatic wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 7:38 PM
My personal opinion. I hate charges and pots. The way its implemented now I would be happier with a buffbot. At least then I wouldn't have to worry about having to farm plat just to support my charges.

I rarely ever group. I duo with my brother sometimes. It's because I cant dedicate time to a grp. My kid and my wife come first. So I'm usually solo. There will be times I'm running around in emain and I will have to get up and get something for my kid. I'll come back and be dead. Its just my life.

However dont think everyone solos because they are anti social (although I rarely chat with people here because honestly some of them are really weird) they do it out of time convenience. They dont have to worry about being 100% alert at all times and know their situation.

Having to spam a full set of charges to feel competitive reminds me of those Japanese RPGs where you have 10000 health potions and you just spam them endlessly to heal.

Whatever the devs decide, I just hope I dont have to deal with the juggling is all.

Pretty much why I don't group much either

Sat 20 Apr 2019 9:31 PM by stinsfire

Delete charges... problem solved.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:35 AM by vilcleft

This discussion feel more like it is about the economics of the server than anything else to me.

Consumables, whether charges, buffpots etc seem to be all about removing available currency from the server, and already it feels like the server is getting flooded with plats as prices for things seem to be constantly increasing (on CMs) as people expect others to have more available cash.

It struck me as odd that on a server which was totally against buffbots we have instead buffpots, but then this does enforce cash removal from the game, but whether this was part of the intent I dont really know. As someone who played originally entirely without a buffbot, I am probably slightly biased against additional buff availability and have misgivings about the level already being available being some sweetener to maintain a population of soloers. Removing them at this point may well see the loss of 300 players per realm so even though that would be my preference, even I wouldnt advocate it. Having said that, now that they are here, it does strike me as odd that some things dont come in barrel recipes, if people want barrels of haste and barrels of damage shield, then insert the recipes, but combining them into one barrel seems unnecessary, similarly I wouldnt have a problem with adding barrels of Lifebane and other poisons, just set the costs appropriately to make them to keep removing money from the world

Charges I sort of have more issues with. It truly strikes me as bonkers that all these charges can be used from inventory. Personally I would want it so only equipped items can have their charges used, and then maybe reduce the timers and costs a bit. For instance, have a timer on inventory items set at 20 mins for all inventory items, so if one inventory item is used (excluding poisons) ALL inventory items are hit with the same 20 min re-use timer, affecting all inventory items, and have a timer on equipped items set at 1 min. If you want a str/con and dex/qui and AF and the OPed legion heal thing, then start working out how to build your template with them all equipped, or 2 equipped and 2 in bag or however you so please. There would obviously need to be some game check on people doing item swapping and what the timers do on this occasion, maybe timers reset on inventory items with each realm task tick so it is 15 mins on inventory items but this timer stays if it is then equipped, until the next task reset or whatever.

Yes I am aware that Assassins are already probably the most difficult to template and that this would feel like a nerf to them, well imo, tough, you already get to choose when to initiate 90% of your fights, and many of them disappear to the ends of the world until all their timers are up anyway, so excuse me for not having much sympathy for assassins

As far as the time spent buffing a group, perhaps a QOL introduction would be to create a potion from the claw potion merchant which costs 10 claws, only usable by druid/shaman/cleric, 1 charge, buffs entire group with HIS/HER quality of buffs ignoring concentration, effects last just as if they were concentration buffs from the druid/shaman/cleric (but without using that concentration) and obviously them redding out if too far from the druid etc who used the potion, and going completely if the druid etc dies. Probably also add an icon which effectively sets the person using the potion to zero available concentration whilst the effect is still up.

I would also consider adding back into the game the ability for LGM alchemists to do recharging of items, but would have a craftable token item as a requirement for the recharge. So 1000 alch gives recipes for recharge stone, which has one charge, material cost equal to about 50% of the cost of using the NPC

A lot of this does all depend on how the GMs are trying to balance the economy, cheap recharging, cheap alchemy leads to less requirement to farm which has impacts on other areas of the game

And before all the above gets flamed to hell, they are just my opinions and I realise that the hardcore soloers generally dont agree with most of my opinions

Wyst

Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:44 AM by AngelRose

You really don't need to reinvent the wheel. Overall, you have a good system - it just needs a few minor changes

1. take away the 2 minute time to hit a new charge
2. increase the time charges last
2. decrease to cost of charging

Thanks for thinking about the solo/smallman players. I am really tired of having to spend so much time farming plat just to pvp

Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:47 AM by k3mra

Ok i have an idea...

What about a completly new "barrel of combined forces"

Alchemist can create a Barrel with 7 charge slots.
These slots can be filled with buffs
2 epic
3 normal
2 lesser

For excample
The epic slots can be filled with level 50 (75 value) points Buffs
The normal with level 34 (54)
The lesser with level 25 (39)

Lesser and normal can be crafted by alchemist and the epic ones drop in the epic dungeon zones or can be purchased with feathers.

Now everyone can build his own barrel.

If you are a caster you will maybe choose
Epic: 1. Dex/quick + 2. dex
Normal: 1. Acu + 2. Str/con 3. Endu reg 3
Lesser: 1. Pom + 2. Con

Or if you are a blade ranger with pf
Epic: 1. Str/con + 2. Con
Normal: 1. Dex + 2. Haste +3. Endu reg 3
Lesser: 1. Dmg shield + 2. Af buff
.............

You can think for yourself what kind of barrel would fit your playstyle and needings the most.

In Addition to dont have just enough barrels to run all epic Buffs. You get a debuff after drinking the barrel called "all filled up". That debuff prevent you from drinking another "barrel of combined forces" and has the same duration as the Buffs itself. 20 min to be exakt to match your normal rebuff timer.

Ofcause the debuff is gone if you die. So that you can debuff yourself again.
................

I would say it would be best to add a npc that you can give your fether items and get feathers back in return.

...............
You should be able to purchase the different epic buff charges at the npcs for a relativly los price (maybe 5k?) you would need the encounter for.

For example Alb
Sidi. Str/con + acu + dmg add
Legion. Dex/quick + str + con
SI. Dex + haste + af
Frontier. Everything else

Thx for reading and i hope you like the idea

.. and if you like it that its doable ^^

Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:27 AM by Mavella

Agreed with pretty much everything phixion said.

Spec charges need a 5 second cooldown so we can roll out without disadvantage. Reduce the cost if you feel it's necessary. As a solo player I feel the money from kills/tasks/BP sales sustains my buffing habits with minimal supplemental farm on my SM.

In combat damage add/legion charges need to keep 2-5 minutes CD that are shared making people choose vs durability in a fight or burst.

Draughts for haste/damage shield for inventory clean up.

That or add full buff NPCs that last until death.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:28 AM by LedriTheThane

I think that you should do the following:

- Make charges extremely cheap. 1g per instead of 10g per.
- Get rid of the CD after release. Do not have buffs persisting through death. Same with Combined Forces.
- Make heal/buff charges separate from offensive debuff/damage charges.

But to emphasize...

- Keep the CD for 2 min so buff classes in groups are still a necessity.
- Keep 10 min as length of buffs so that classes such as Champion, Friar, and Thane with their 75 buffs are still an advantage to have compared to other classes. This can affect legitimate balance.

Some thoughts as a solo Thane.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:44 AM by Yokahu

LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:28 AM
- Keep 10 min as length of buffs so that classes such as Champion, Friar, and Thane with their 75 buffs are still an advantage to have compared to other classes. This can affect legitimate balance.

Some thoughts as a solo Thane.

My main is a friar and I solo 97% of the time. I don’t think increasing the duration of the buffpots affects the balance of the selfbuffing classes as long as their buff value is not increased.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 7:49 AM by Glimmer

1)Increase duration for charges from 10-20min
2)Make quality of pots effect pot duration.
3)Allow us recharge by BPs.
4)Add for alchemyst craftable recharge stones with 10/30/50 charges to use.

No need to add more charge items.

My 2 cents, regards.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 8:24 AM by k3mra

I have another idea thats related to my last post but a bit easyer to implement...

You can make that 1 buff charge can be enhanced in every juwelery.
Neck and cloak epic
Gem and belt normal
Rings minor
Bracers supportive (heal, hot or ablative)

Neck, cloak, gem, belt and rings give you a debuff with the same duration as the buffs (20min would be best) that you cant purge but is removed by death. That way you cant just swap items to run all buffs.

Bracers are on a charge timer so that you have to choose what you want to use while fighting.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 8:53 AM by Elekur

For the love of God just make charges Cheaper and be done with it.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 9:05 AM by The Skies Asunder

I still, for the life of me, cannot understand the no buffbot/buff NPC stance taken, with all the potions and charges just being added in their place. Just add buff NPCs so that money is still taken out of the economy. Even if they are just spec buff NPCs, so that way alchemists can still feel important for base buff potions.

As someone previously said, the game is too slow without buffs, but just removing all buff potions, and charges would be fine too I suppose. If you are keeping all of the potions because they are "fine" (I tend to disagree), then eliminate the 2m timer for defense buff charges, as well as the RvR combat timer for potions & charges (Why is this even a thing), and extend the duration for them. Juggling buffs is nothing more than an annoyance, and specifically one that makes people avoid combat while their charges are down. I personally don't mind the cost, though it is a big high, I am much more irritated by the constant need to keep making sure I activate the charge items on time to keep them all up.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 1:18 PM by BTFD

20min duration on pots/charges

Add recharge option pay with BP's

Haste/da combined 100 charge pots

Add storage of pots/poison/arrows/merchants in /mount without horses

Make a quest in frontiers for /mount use to generate some action

Give ungrouped chars some kind of love. They get rolled repeatedly by grouped players. Its discouraging. And no they wont eventually group up.. they will just quit. When solos quit, small mans get less rp. They quit. When 8mans cant pick off smallmans they get less rp action and they quit. Solos at the bottom of the foodchain but we feed the whole ecosystem. With every solo that quits everyone loses.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 1:21 PM by dbeattie71

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:44 AM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:28 AM
- Keep 10 min as length of buffs so that classes such as Champion, Friar, and Thane with their 75 buffs are still an advantage to have compared to other classes. This can affect legitimate balance.

Some thoughts as a solo Thane.

My main is a friar and I solo 97% of the time. I don’t think increasing the duration of the buffpots affects the balance of the selfbuffing classes as long as their buff value is not increased.

Rangers buffs last 20 mins which they spec for, if pots last that long and don’t go away at death, they will almost be better than the spec version.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 1:45 PM by waffel

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:44 AM
You really don't need to reinvent the wheel. Overall, you have a good system - it just needs a few minor changes

1. take away the 2 minute time to hit a new charge
2. increase the time charges last
2. decrease to cost of charging

Thanks for thinking about the solo/smallman players. I am really tired of having to spend so much time farming plat just to pvp

Pretty much this.

Way too many suggestions in this thread that would be a huge pain to implement, or require the game to check/work in ways it can’t. Some people typing out dissertation about their idea when after the first paragraph you can skip the rest because it can’t/will never happen.

People need to Keep It Simple.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 2:23 PM by Padatoo

I am for removal of stat/AF buff charges all together - they make hybrid self buffs useless .
Also having everyone running buffed would be just the same as everyone running non-buffed - then why bother and waste plat on recharging?

Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:06 PM by k3mra

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 2:23 PM
I am for removal of stat/AF buff charges all together - they make hybrid self buffs useless .
Also having everyone running buffed would be just the same as everyone running non-buffed - then why bother and waste plat on recharging?

Hybrid classes are balanced to be on par with other full buffed classes.
With the removal of buff charges and pots friars for example would be Borderline op

Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:37 PM by Yokahu

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 1:21 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:44 AM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:28 AM
- Keep 10 min as length of buffs so that classes such as Champion, Friar, and Thane with their 75 buffs are still an advantage to have compared to other classes. This can affect legitimate balance.

Some thoughts as a solo Thane.

My main is a friar and I solo 97% of the time. I don’t think increasing the duration of the buffpots affects the balance of the selfbuffing classes as long as their buff value is not increased.

Rangers buffs last 20 mins which they spec for, if pots last that long and don’t go away at death, they will almost be better than the spec version.

PF buffs sucking is another topic; it has been said in other posts that the only reason to spec PF is to gain access to dmg add since pots/charges are about as good as PF buffs.

Increasing the duration of buffpots won’t change that.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:42 PM by dbeattie71

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:37 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 1:21 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:44 AM
My main is a friar and I solo 97% of the time. I don’t think increasing the duration of the buffpots affects the balance of the selfbuffing classes as long as their buff value is not increased.

Rangers buffs last 20 mins which they spec for, if pots last that long and don’t go away at death, they will almost be better than the spec version.

PF buffs sucking is another topic; it has been said in other posts that the only reason to spec PF is to gain access to dmg add since pots/charges are about as good as PF buffs.

Increasing the duration of buffpots won’t change that.

50 PF is awesome and I get 20 mins and only use 1 charge, you know PF spec str stacks with s/c charge right? One thing it changes is opponents having the same duration I spec for, instead of them having to juggle timers, which they should since they did not have to spec for them.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:07 PM by Padatoo

k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:06 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 2:23 PM
I am for removal of stat/AF buff charges all together - they make hybrid self buffs useless .
Also having everyone running buffed would be just the same as everyone running non-buffed - then why bother and waste plat on recharging?

Hybrid classes are balanced to be on par with other full buffed classes.
With the removal of buff charges and pots friars for example would be Borderline op

Balanced how?Whats the logic in your statement?
Friars are already borderline op - britons with staves are ignored by solo stealthers

Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:13 PM by Padatoo

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:37 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 1:21 PM
Rangers buffs last 20 mins which they spec for, if pots last that long and don’t go away at death, they will almost be better than the spec version.

PF buffs sucking is another topic; it has been said in other posts that the only reason to spec PF is to gain access to dmg add since pots/charges are about as good as PF buffs.

Increasing the duration of buffpots won’t change that.

50 PF is awesome and I get 20 mins and only use 1 charge, you know PF spec str stacks with s/c charge right? One thing it changes is opponents having the same duration I spec for, instead of them having to juggle timers, which they should since they did not have to spec for them.

You spec a line up to 50, to gain 36 str from the buff and lose 15 dex/qui with the other buff.....net total of 6 stats,and you save some gold? oh boi

Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:14 PM by k3mra

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:07 PM
k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:06 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 2:23 PM
I am for removal of stat/AF buff charges all together - they make hybrid self buffs useless .
Also having everyone running buffed would be just the same as everyone running non-buffed - then why bother and waste plat on recharging?

Hybrid classes are balanced to be on par with other full buffed classes.
With the removal of buff charges and pots friars for example would be Borderline op
Balanced how?Whats the logic in your statement?
Friars are already borderline op - britons with staves are ignored by solo stealthers

By playing good and use everything right you can beat him... nur if you remove the Buffs of one of the players (charges, pots) they will have abolutly no more chance .. so removing tue pots and charges make no sence.
And like stated by others before classes feel sluggish without Buffs.

... i would realy like some input what you guys think about my ideas on page 6 and 7.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:55 PM by Padatoo

k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:14 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:07 PM
k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:06 PM
Hybrid classes are balanced to be on par with other full buffed classes.
With the removal of buff charges and pots friars for example would be Borderline op
Balanced how?Whats the logic in your statement?
Friars are already borderline op - britons with staves are ignored by solo stealthers

By playing good and use everything right you can beat him... nur if you remove the Buffs of one of the players (charges, pots) they will have abolutly no more chance .. so

All wrong.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 5:01 PM by LedriTheThane

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:44 AM
LedriTheThane wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:28 AM
- Keep 10 min as length of buffs so that classes such as Champion, Friar, and Thane with their 75 buffs are still an advantage to have compared to other classes. This can affect legitimate balance.

Some thoughts as a solo Thane.

My main is a friar and I solo 97% of the time. I don’t think increasing the duration of the buffpots affects the balance of the selfbuffing classes as long as their buff value is not increased.

I meant charges. Not buff pots.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 5:44 PM by k3mra

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:55 PM
k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:14 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:07 PM
Balanced how?Whats the logic in your statement?
Friars are already borderline op - britons with staves are ignored by solo stealthers

By playing good and use everything right you can beat him... nur if you remove the Buffs of one of the players (charges, pots) they will have abolutly no more chance .. so

All wrong.

How is that wrong?! ... you dont stay any chance against a Friar if you remove all Buffs from a shadowblade or ns... am i wrong? .. no

If the SB or ns has Buffs he would at least have some chance

Sun 21 Apr 2019 6:39 PM by Halma

k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 5:44 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:55 PM
k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:14 PM
By playing good and use everything right you can beat him... nur if you remove the Buffs of one of the players (charges, pots) they will have abolutly no more chance .. so

All wrong.

How is that wrong?! ... you dont stay any chance against a Friar if you remove all Buffs from a shadowblade or ns... am i wrong? .. no

If the SB or ns has Buffs he would at least have some chance

Assassins always seem to want everything and one more. Is it so hard to imagine that a specific archetype shouldn't be on top of every other class? That it's still some kind of rock paper scissors and not paper paper machinegun?
Having a chance against everything while being able to pick only fights with advantages seems a bit weird.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 7:01 PM by Padatoo

k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 5:44 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:55 PM
k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:14 PM
By playing good and use everything right you can beat him... nur if you remove the Buffs of one of the players (charges, pots) they will have abolutly no more chance .. so

All wrong.

How is that wrong?! ... you dont stay any chance against a Friar if you remove all Buffs from a shadowblade or ns... am i wrong? .. no

If the SB or ns has Buffs he would at least have some chance

You dont stand a chance mainly because of reflex attack,the rest of his abilities arent scary at all - adding/removing charge doesnt affect much

Sun 21 Apr 2019 10:02 PM by waffel

Took 8 pages to derail the thread into a discussion about friars. Nice work, guys.

Sun 21 Apr 2019 10:22 PM by k3mra

waffel wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 10:02 PM
Took 8 pages to derail the thread into a discussion about friars. Nice work, guys.

Thats why i dont beide any more.. i made 2 (in my opinion) good suggestions that nobody responces to. Now i will just wait and see what the devs come up with.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 12:33 AM by dbeattie71

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:13 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:42 PM
Yokahu wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 3:37 PM
PF buffs sucking is another topic; it has been said in other posts that the only reason to spec PF is to gain access to dmg add since pots/charges are about as good as PF buffs.

Increasing the duration of buffpots won’t change that.

50 PF is awesome and I get 20 mins and only use 1 charge, you know PF spec str stacks with s/c charge right? One thing it changes is opponents having the same duration I spec for, instead of them having to juggle timers, which they should since they did not have to spec for them.

You spec a line up to 50, to gain 36 str from the buff and lose 15 dex/qui with the other buff.....net total of 6 stats,and you save some gold? oh boi

36? It’s 62. 320 buffed str, it’s why every other SB I find runs or vanishes lol.

Edit: I never said to save gold, not sure what you’re taking about. Last I checked I had 46P in account vault and never care about how much stuff costs. But not having to juggle the dumb timers is nice.

Edit2: and yeah, every single point of str I can get, noobs that get mop instead lol, aug str > mop.

edit3: oh 36, the diff between PF spec and combined forces. Yeah, I do and from my experience it works better than having lower PF and higher CD. Of all the specs and combos of different levels I've tried 50 works the best for this build. If you don't think 36str is much, it would cost 20 RA's to get an extra 34 str. But if they want to change buffs and eliminate having to spec PF at all I guess I"m ok with that, I'll have the same str and jack CD up, yikes.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 4:49 PM by cere2

Buff potions have already hurt self buffing classes. But since they are deemed "fine" here we go.

We have arrived at what Live did right. NPC yellow con full buff potions.

Alch's shoud be able to craft full dex/qui, str/con spec af combo pots.
They would still profit from all potions because most still carry if/when they die.
Still need potions for dmg add/dmg shield/celerity etc.
Even groups use them so they can be buffed once rezzed and not be fodder until buff classes have time to get buffs put up on them after death etc.

Drop the after combat timer. No one cares if people are ready to go 1 minute after they /released.
Group play means res sickness still a factor if rezzed.

With this rangers wont train PF...like most choose to not do now, still an option for those who believe it's worth it....
Hunter's are fubar atm with BC. Make it worth it for them to still spec at least for pet. Fix pet speed like Live did.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 6:47 PM by thanatosdaoc

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:33 PM
Charges as we have them right now are mostly fine in groups with a normal buffer: most people don't charge anything, many people charge one thing, few people charge 2 things. Usually spec af is charged and in case of caster acuity or in case of some str based melees spec dex. Also fine: the buff potions

However, in small groups or when running solo it feels as if it is required to charge as much as possible, that means spec af, and either of spec str or spec dex at a minimum followed by the other of the two asap as well as keeping up all the other things like damage shield and damage add. This either forces people to wait for 2 charge times or make them start a run with a disadvantage compared to someone who charges. In any case, due to the existence of charges solo people are / feel forced to charge as much as possible driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable (the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone).

My opinion, that's shared with some staff members, is that it would be nice to somehow get to a point where the charge timer is not used for long duration buffs but for something that's used in combat, examples just to get the point across: magic + melee ablative, 30s secondary melee / magic resist or even a hot. Those new charge things could even be on another, separate timer so that heal / mana charges would still be usable. The advantage of such a situation would be that the items providing charges are still very desirable while there is no feeling of being forced to wait until one is fully charged up or that one wasted 50g on a run just to get zerged 10 seconds later as charges are only used on demand in a fight.

An alternative to the above would be the removal of buff charges entirely.

However, even if people agree that either of the above would be a desirable situation there would be a couple changes required to not really change the group play:
1) Lifting of the 20 buff limit
2) Increasing the available conc
3) Giving bards and healer spec af

Then there would still be the problem of what to do with the charge items people already have / their feather investments. Buff charge items are a huge part of why people raid / what people buy, it would hence be required to make those items have / do something that still makes them desirable / that there is an appropriate alternative for the same amount of feathers (in which case either a feather refund would be needed or a trade in for whatever the alternative is).

The reason nothing has happened is that we are unsure what to do with the existing items.
A potentially slightly weird solution would be the removal of mastery of arcane (reintroduced OF ra due to lack of buff bonus) and introduction of reverse buff bonus that would affect all buffs casted on you, including the buff potion, instead of the normal buff bonus that works on outgoing buffs. This could be introduced as additional "gems" that can be added onto existing armor / accessories and would be available for feathers as well as tradeable for the existing charge items.
This would change the buff potion values to about 86 for stats where base and spec is available compared to the 101 currently available via potion base and charge spec.

Since we cannot really find a consensus internally, we'd like to have some more community input on the matter.

A couple things to keep in mind:
This is not about buff potions, those are considered fine
Increasing the charge duration would not help as it would even exacerbate the problem as now everyone would be expected to literally charge everything
Reducing the charge cost would only help the cost factor and also slightly exacerbate the problem as again, now everyone would charge more
Making charges free and only allowing a single charge would devalue the charge items as now everyone only needs a single one
This is not about alternative charge buffs but the mechanic / goal itself.

20 min charges would help alot for solo players - I agree with this =)

Mon 22 Apr 2019 6:50 PM by FFpheonix

I didn't read the whole thread, so here we go...

As soon as charges were introduced they were mandatory, I think most people agree. Either you use charges (and buff pots) or you're at a disadvantage. Instead of a Class being balanced on its solo performance, all classes are balanced around being buffed ('member buff bots?)

I feel that Charge items should continue to exist but new "Buff Epics" should be introduced. The Buff Epics would allow people to cast buffs on themselves without recharging or other costly mechanics. Every Class should have the option to complete the quests, and the Epics can be a "right of passage" for players. What this does is remove the need to make other cascading changes, like adding more Conc and/or changing the buff limit, and sticks to the buffing model which has already been introduced.

Either something is done to make it easier and less expensive to buff, or I'd prefer all Charges to be removed.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:16 PM by

gruenesschaf

As almost expected most people didn't read the "things to keep in mind" section. Most suggestions from solos so far only made their live as solo better but entirely ignored the potential effects it would have on group play.

There is no way we are just going to increase the duration of charges, it keeps the cost issue and makes charges a lot more prevalent and might even increase the time people wait afk at the pks until their charge timers are up.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the recharge costs, doesn't really fix anything and only very slightly lessens the pain.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the charge timer as that would make the cost and prevalence of charge buffs a lot worse forcing everyone to have every possible charge buff and it would heavily affect PR in fights.

Combining any, or even all, of the above would fix the usage issues, however, it would require everyone to have every possible charge buff and has the potential to affect group compositions or specs of people in the group as it would then become conceivable to trade a buffer / buff spec for something else.

We do not ever want buffs from items to be better or about as good as buffs from buff classes (acuity doesn't count because reasons, see sos breaking mechanics for more info).

Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:32 PM by cere2

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:16 PM
As almost expected most people didn't read the "things to keep in mind" section. Most suggestions from solos so far only made their live as solo better but entirely ignored the potential effects it would have on group play.

There is no way we are just going to increase the duration of charges, it keeps the cost issue and makes charges a lot more prevalent and might even increase the time people wait afk at the pks until their charge timers are up.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the recharge costs, doesn't really fix anything and only very slightly lessens the pain.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the charge timer as that would make the cost and prevalence of charge buffs a lot worse forcing everyone to have every possible charge buff and it would heavily affect PR in fights.

Combining any, or even all, of the above would fix the usage issues, however, it would require everyone to have every possible charge buff and has the potential to affect group compositions or specs of people in the group as it would then become conceivable to trade a buffer / buff spec for something else.

We do not ever want buffs from items to be better or about as good as buffs from buff classes (acuity doesn't count because reasons, see sos breaking mechanics for more info).

Then please explain to us what is the "goal" your looking for here?

And you don't want charges to become as good as buffs from buff classes? Aren't you a bit late to that party? Pathfinding/BC come to mind here....hmmm

With this being the case please explain the reasoning behind not wanting an NPC that gives yellow buffs available to all. What did this break in Live?
How would this affect group composition?
We don't group classes only because they have buffs.
We don't group a druid/healer if they went all buff spec as it is...So who would change specs if everyone got yellow buffs? Pretty sure most in groups still get purp bases and yellow specs for even pugs.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:51 PM by

gruenesschaf

cere2 wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:32 PM
Then please explain to us what is the "goal" your looking for here?

Making buff item usage less of a hassle while keeping the value of and amount of the current feather investment and not negatively affecting group play.

And you don't want charges to become as good as buffs from buff classes? Aren't you a bit late to that party? Pathfinding/BC come to mind here....hmmm

1.65 spell delves, as part of this they might be revisited too.

With this being the case please explain the reasoning behind not wanting an NPC that gives yellow buffs available to all. What did this break in Live?

Alchemy. Usage wise I don't really see much of a difference between a buff npc and combo buff potion, except one might make you slightly more likely to not accept a rez. If you're talking about value, it's way too much from non buffer sources and it didn't break live as the alternative was / is buff bots. In the end it was our choice to go with a potion instead of npc, value would have been the same either way and the method by which these basically hassle free non buffer buffs are applied doesn't really matter.

We don't group classes only because they have buffs.
We don't group a druid/healer if they went all buff spec as it is...So who would change specs if everyone got yellow buffs? Pretty sure most in groups still get purp bases and yellow specs for even pugs.

With higher achievable buff values from items different things were observed in beta.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:59 PM by Zzang

How about you make stat buffs from items just slightly better than the buff pots so that the difference is not that big, at the same time you can lower the reuse timer since having some stat buff items will not make that huge of a difference. Also make Mastery of Arcane affect buff pots/items and give it to all classes so that you can spec it if you spend most of your time in solo/without a buffer.

Right now a dex/qui from potion is like 39? And stat buff item is 75? (i'm not on a computer with the game atm to check)
Say instead that a dex/qui from items would grant 55 and only with Mastery of Arcane it would reach old levels.

Buffs from a player should always be the best option, I would also say that buffers should get a tad more concentration to allow 1 cleric/druid/shaman to give all spec buffs to 8 players, this would make life much easier for those who don't care to play perfect setups but still want buffs.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:59 PM by Riac

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:51 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:32 PM
Then please explain to us what is the "goal" your looking for here?

Making buff item usage less of a hassle while keeping the value of and amount of the current feather investment and not negatively affecting group play.

And you don't want charges to become as good as buffs from buff classes? Aren't you a bit late to that party? Pathfinding/BC come to mind here....hmmm
1.65 spell delves, as part of this they might be revisited too.

With this being the case please explain the reasoning behind not wanting an NPC that gives yellow buffs available to all. What did this break in Live?
Alchemy. Usage wise I don't really see much of a difference between a buff npc and combo buff potion, except one might make you slightly more likely to not accept a rez. If you're talking about value, it's way too much from non buffer sources and it didn't break live as the alternative was / is buff bots. In the end it was our choice to go with a potion instead of npc, value would have been the same either way and the method by which these basically hassle free non buffer buffs are applied doesn't really matter.

We don't group classes only because they have buffs.
We don't group a druid/healer if they went all buff spec as it is...So who would change specs if everyone got yellow buffs? Pretty sure most in groups still get purp bases and yellow specs for even pugs.
With higher achievable buff values from items different things were observed in beta.

ppl already dont rez randoms in rvr, so that ship has sailed... but if you could just plz god remove the the 2 min interval between the charges that would be outstanding, even if it were made to be like the combined forces thing (where you cant use for 1 min after combat). seems that all of this inconvenience is cruxes upon the one particular scenario with p.r. and would it really be the worst thing in the world if someone could use a cf barrel after a pr????

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:10 PM by Ashenspire

Give money to an NPC to increase your stats by level x 3.1 for an hour. Done and done. No items, no potions. Still a gold sink.

Items becoming obsolete is nothing out of the norm for an mmo. Happens all the time. Everyone moves on, no one has a clear advantage.

Let people sell their old items for feather reimbursement if it's really that big of a deal.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:17 PM by cere2

Making buff item usage less of a hassle while keeping the value of and amount of the current feather investment and not negatively affecting group play.

This doesn't have an affect on group play. Like I said, no one( worth a lick) invites a buff class because of their buffs in RVR.

1.65 spell delves, as part of this they might be revisited too.

1.65 had buff potions? I thought 1.65 had pathfinding and BC based off other stealth classes not having access to buffs..color me surprised.

Alchemy. Usage wise I don't really see much of a difference between a buff npc and combo buff potion, except one might make you slightly more likely to not accept a rez. If you're talking about value, it's way too much from non buffer sources and it didn't break live as the alternative was / is buff bots. In the end it was our choice to go with a potion instead of npc, value would have been the same either way and the method by which these basically hassle free non buffer buffs are applied doesn't really matter.

Did you not read my other post? Specifically about alchemist still having their potions used?

We don't group classes only because they have buffs.
We don't group a druid/healer if they went all buff spec as it is...So who would change specs if everyone got yellow buffs? Pretty sure most in groups still get purp bases and yellow specs for even pugs.

With higher achievable buff values from items different things were observed in beta.

What does that to do with what you quoted me saying?

Not trying to be rude but it seems to me that you guys have already decided what your going to do, since everything stated so far is not going to be considered with essentially little to no reasoning behind it. Buff bots were a thing in live. You all decided to use buff potions instead. Same problem, Live came up with a good solution...NPC buffs for a gold sink.
Why are you trying to re-invent the wheel?

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:25 PM by chryso

I think we should just remove all charge items from the game. If nobody has them then nobody needs them to compete.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:29 PM by Riac

chryso wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:25 PM
I think we should just remove all charge items from the game. If nobody has them then nobody needs them to compete.

its already hard enough to complete a fight w/o being added on, now you want to slow the combat down? no one will ever get a solo kill again.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:31 PM by chryso

Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:29 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:25 PM
I think we should just remove all charge items from the game. If nobody has them then nobody needs them to compete.

its already hard enough to complete a fight w/o being added on, now you want to slow the combat down? no one will ever get a solo kill again.

The person you are fighting will also have fewer hit points.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:31 PM by cere2

Riac wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:29 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:25 PM
I think we should just remove all charge items from the game. If nobody has them then nobody needs them to compete.

its already hard enough to complete a fight w/o being added on, now you want to slow the combat down? no one will ever get a solo kill again.

Solo kills did not exist before buff potions/buff bots.

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:37 PM by Sepplord

I didn't have the opportunity to read all the comments so far, so i hooe this is not just a repetition:

I am happy to see you are considering reworking the current system and are trying not to devalue anyones existing charge items.

In that regard i just want to point out, that refunding feathers (or allowing them to be traded in for a new-system-item) doesnt fully avoid People from losing out.

I and a few friends for example have built charge-items into our temps to have the charge and save inventory space, even if the chargeitem isnt top utility. I can't refund the Item as even without the charges i still need it. But i would have build a better/easier temp if i didn't have to work around some chargeitems.

Other people have spent hours farming chargeitems, how can that be compared to a featheritem? Etc...

Just an additional POV to consider, i am Not pre-whining already 😉

Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:41 PM by Riac

i personally think worrying about devalueing of items is the wrong way to look at it. make a better system no matter what happens to the items

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:38 AM by gxcochr

The items are a sunk cost. I agree with Riiac, focus more on making the proper changes going forward. We are only 3 + months into this server, a year from now no one will care what items were not refunded along the way to making the experience more enjoyable for everyone.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 6:23 AM by inoeth

remove all charges -> make selfbuffs valueable again!

Tue 23 Apr 2019 6:31 AM by AngelRose

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:16 PM
As almost expected most people didn't read the "things to keep in mind" section. Most suggestions from solos so far only made their live as solo better but entirely ignored the potential effects it would have on group play.

There is no way we are just going to increase the duration of charges, it keeps the cost issue and makes charges a lot more prevalent and might even increase the time people wait afk at the pks until their charge timers are up.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the recharge costs, doesn't really fix anything and only very slightly lessens the pain.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the charge timer as that would make the cost and prevalence of charge buffs a lot worse forcing everyone to have every possible charge buff and it would heavily affect PR in fights.

Combining any, or even all, of the above would fix the usage issues, however, it would require everyone to have every possible charge buff and has the potential to affect group compositions or specs of people in the group as it would then become conceivable to trade a buffer / buff spec for something else.

We do not ever want buffs from items to be better or about as good as buffs from buff classes (acuity doesn't count because reasons, see sos breaking mechanics for more info).

So just lower the cost. you say it doesn't fix anythng, but it fixes alot. I wouldnt have to pve to solo. It wild decrease the biggest pain.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 7:06 AM by k3mra

Ok from a Merc in a group perspective...

If die and get rezzed i would like to use my combined forces imidietly to get close to my full potential as fast as possible.

What if you work in a system that Upgrades the Buffs of potions when you recive conc Buffs to 25% per buff up to a value of 100% of the player that buffs you. Every conc buff
Lets say the potions start with a 29 stats bonus.

Now i get a str/con buff from a Cleric with 36 enhance. So a +75 ..that means (75÷4=18.75) the buff would upgrade the other Buffs to 19. Since its not over 29 you just have the normal potion Buffs + a spec full 75 str/von from the Cleric.
Now he buffs base str. Since that is is the 2nd conc buff you recive it would Upgrade the potion Buffs to 37,5 (75÷2). So you have a bit stronger potion Buffs + 75str/von and 75 str base from Cleric buffs.
With the next conc buff it would upgrade the potion Buffs to 56,5 (75÷4=18,75×3=56,5)
And with the 4th buff all of the potion Buffs are on the same value as if the Cleric buffs all his Buffs.

If someone has higher buff spells i dont know if its better to upgrade the rest of the Buffs to his value after 4 Buffs or if he realy has to buff them to give the full effect.

The good thing would be with a system like that that a small man with just a Friar, bard/warden or healer could have full Buffs just after the base Buffs.
The Bad thing could be that its too punishing for druids, clerics and shamans to go high into buffing since they could reach the same Goal by just buffing base Buffs and the buff line could get useless except for resist buffs.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 7:32 AM by Sepplord

gxcochr wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:38 AM
The items are a sunk cost. I agree with Riiac, focus more on making the proper changes going forward. We are only 3 + months into this server, a year from now no one will care what items were not refunded along the way to making the experience more enjoyable for everyone.

while i agree in general, i believe it is important to not rush such a thing. "Better" is often a POV...and having an idea suddenly that will clearly be a huge improvement for the whole server is not very likely imo. People are upset and play less because of very small changes that have almost no tangible impact. Making people redo templates 3Months into the game, when a big pull of DAoC has always been "getting RvR ready and being done" will cause some people to leave. I would probably not outright quit...but i have several chars at 50/almost50 that i don't play because i can't be ***** to get them a temp.

It's not about having to redo a temp for an overall better game as a one time thing. It's about redoing temp for a patch...and not knowing how long it will be until the next huge improvement idea comes up that ruins current equipsets again.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 7:42 AM by Riac

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 7:32 AM
gxcochr wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:38 AM
The items are a sunk cost. I agree with Riiac, focus more on making the proper changes going forward. We are only 3 + months into this server, a year from now no one will care what items were not refunded along the way to making the experience more enjoyable for everyone.

while i agree in general, i believe it is important to not rush such a thing. "Better" is often a POV...and having an idea suddenly that will clearly be a huge improvement for the whole server is not very likely imo. People are upset and play less because of very small changes that have almost no tangible impact. Making people redo templates 3Months into the game, when a big pull of DAoC has always been "getting RvR ready and being done" will cause some people to leave. I would probably not outright quit...but i have several chars at 50/almost50 that i don't play because i can't be ***** to get them a temp.

It's not about having to redo a temp for an overall better game as a one time thing. It's about redoing temp for a patch...and not knowing how long it will be until the next huge improvement idea comes up that ruins current equipsets again.

I'm guessing this system won't be new items with new charges or at the very least they could just allow them to use from backpack, which already exists. I'm assuming everyone that has a temp has capped ones so those old Temps will work just as well. I just don't think maintaining the value of the items is worth worrying about if a better system over all can be thought of. However, I don't think any of that matters. Ppl have already said what they want and they've said they don't want to do any of it. I really don't agree with most of their reasons but w/e. Especially the reason for not extending charge timers, their reason for that just seems lol worthy to me, but once again, w/e.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:43 AM by Luluko

just introduce buff npcs and add speed charges then everyone is on an even playingfield, this makes room in the inventory and actually makes visible solo classes somewhat viable, if every death means you will lose all your charges and only waste money people will just behave even more orportunistic than they already do. And you still have damageadd/heal charges you can use.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:44 AM by Norad

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:51 PM
cere2 wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:32 PM
Then please explain to us what is the "goal" your looking for here?

Making buff item usage less of a hassle while keeping the value of and amount of the current feather investment and not negatively affecting group play.

And you don't want charges to become as good as buffs from buff classes? Aren't you a bit late to that party? Pathfinding/BC come to mind here....hmmm
1.65 spell delves, as part of this they might be revisited too.

With this being the case please explain the reasoning behind not wanting an NPC that gives yellow buffs available to all. What did this break in Live?
Alchemy. Usage wise I don't really see much of a difference between a buff npc and combo buff potion, except one might make you slightly more likely to not accept a rez. If you're talking about value, it's way too much from non buffer sources and it didn't break live as the alternative was / is buff bots. In the end it was our choice to go with a potion instead of npc, value would have been the same either way and the method by which these basically hassle free non buffer buffs are applied doesn't really matter.

We don't group classes only because they have buffs.
We don't group a druid/healer if they went all buff spec as it is...So who would change specs if everyone got yellow buffs? Pretty sure most in groups still get purp bases and yellow specs for even pugs.
With higher achievable buff values from items different things were observed in beta.

Sounds like you want to remove buff charges from the game and replace each buff charge item with one of your new charges (sc=melee ablative, dq=magic ablative, acuity=magic resist, spec af=melee resist). Which to me sounds like a worse version than what we have now, everything does to be honest.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:02 PM by Joc

You could cure all of this with an NPC buffer. Its getting overly complicated here and it doesn't need to be. Blue buffs as before with red spec AF, str/con, and D/q. Buffs last until death. Offensive and defensive charges would not have to change.

The last thing I want to have to do is manage more in combat timers. Live did that with ToA and recently again with CLs.

NPC that gives feather refund based on previous price.

All of this would be pretty straight forward and truely even the playing field as much as you could without going with a max buff NPC.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:08 PM by Sepplord

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 9:10 PM
Give money to an NPC to increase your stats by level x 3.1 for an hour. Done and done. No items, no potions. Still a gold sink.

Items becoming obsolete is nothing out of the norm for an mmo. Happens all the time. Everyone moves on, no one has a clear advantage.

Let people sell their old items for feather reimbursement if it's really that big of a deal.

heavily changes the way people play, aka logging out in the middle of nowhere etc...

and yes, making equipsets obsolete and forcing people to retemp is common nowadays in MMOs...also a reason why (imo) most fail to gather intrest longer. DAoC always had the appeal of NOT being a treadmill. of NOT being a game where you take a month break and come back to have all your previous "work" devalued because the nolifers need something new to farm or they won't pay subscriptions

Joc wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:02 PM
You could cure all of this with an NPC buffer. Its getting overly complicated here and it doesn't need to be. Blue buffs as before with red spec AF, str/con, and D/q. Buffs last until death. Offensive and defensive charges would not have to change.

The last thing I want to have to do is manage more in combat timers. Live did that with ToA and recently again with CLs.

NPC that gives feather refund based on previous price.

All of this would be pretty straight forward and truely even the playing field as much as you could without going with a max buff NPC.

Moving buff-availability to fixed points on the maps changes a lot imo... (would buffs persist through being logged out?) Even with them persisting through log-outs/serverdowns you would still have the problem of being rezzed in RvR/PvE.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:15 PM by Ashenspire

Your opinion is misinformed. DAoC was always a treadmill, whether it be gear or RPs. The lifeblood of DAoC has always been it's pve content. That's what kept the game going as long as it did. It's why ToA was the peak of the game's subscriptions. Having carrots to chase keeps people playing, regardless of what it does to old gear. As long as it can be replaced by something better, people won't care.

What games used to do doesn't matter. If you want to keep this game alive, you need to hold it to the standards of modern MMOs.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:21 PM by Sepplord

i should have said "gear" treadmill...
and every single game nowadays have MMO-like features that let you progress.
What they all don't have is also common: regularly making all your progress go to waste. THAT is primarily a "feature" of subscription driven games or games that do not offer anything besides PvE.

DAoC always had the no-gear-grinds as a main appeal, to me and all of the people i played DAoC with in the early days (looking back ofcourse...back then we didn't even know how a ever-resetting-gear-treadmill would look like). It's one of the reasons we were hyped for Phoenix and for us it IS a huge appeal, if you deem that uninformed or not has no impact on our opinion

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:27 PM by

gruenesschaf

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:21 PM
DAoC always had the no-gear-grinds as a main appeal, to me and all of the people i played DAoC with in the early days (looking back ofcourse...back then we didn't even know how a ever-resetting-gear-treadmill would look like). It's one of the reasons we were hyped for Phoenix and for us it IS a huge appeal, if you deem that uninformed or not has no impact on our opinion

While we do not intend to make a change that would require anyone to retemp anytime soon, every actual expansion in daoc included a gear reset due to new must have toys and/or stats.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:36 PM by Sepplord

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:27 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:21 PM
DAoC always had the no-gear-grinds as a main appeal, to me and all of the people i played DAoC with in the early days (looking back ofcourse...back then we didn't even know how a ever-resetting-gear-treadmill would look like). It's one of the reasons we were hyped for Phoenix and for us it IS a huge appeal, if you deem that uninformed or not has no impact on our opinion

While we do not intend to make a change that would require anyone to retemp anytime soon, every actual expansion in daoc included a gear reset due to new must have toys and/or stats.

I was under the assumption that SI didn't do that...and TOA was where i quit the game and only played freeshards afterwards. But you are right, it's my pink-glasses of nostalgia ignoring that DAoC did the same thing in the following expansions when i didn't play anymore. Classic DAoC is not all of DAoC and i guess there are players from every expac-epoch too

Tue 23 Apr 2019 1:41 PM by

gruenesschaf

SI was the first / biggest one to do it with the introduction of Spellcrafting and Alchemy (could also be that it was a patch a couple days before or after, don't exactly remember), before you had your epic and / or drop stuff, after you had everything crafted and your SC.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 9:23 PM by Kwall0311

I like the idea of having offensive and defensive buffs on separate timers. (AF/STRCON/DEXQUI) , then (heal,hot,dmg,dot,dd etc.)

Also, making the /use timer on the buff charges similar, or exact to how they are on the crafted buff charges, 5 seconds?

WRT group buffing, perhaps make them a bit stronger than the /use buffs, and increasing conc for spec buffs.

Tue 23 Apr 2019 9:36 PM by AngelRose

The last two pve quests on ywain, that required massive amounts of pve, and rewarded with must have items are the biggest reasons it is a ghost town.

I do not see any reason to not just lower the cost.

Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:22 PM by jhaerik

Well to be fair I've actually stopped playing entirely as of a few weeks ago, (largely due to things like charges and the random pet nerfs and random mid nerfs) but here is my two cents.

Change the long term stat buffs charge items to a /use2 ability.
Remove the CD timer on /use2 items.
/use2 change duration to 20m.
Lower cost of recharging to 30g.

While it's great to have a money sink, the cost of charges and pots combined makes soloing a full time job just to keep up the money to solo.

Let's say it's a Saturday, and you have 16 hours of nothing to do but play DAoC. The current cost of keeping pots/charges running for that amount of time is around 4 plat. While this might not effect the folks that enjoy PvE or play PvE desired classes..... farming 4P solo outside of catching an SI feather raid.... is no easy task for something like a solo light tank/tank/stealther. You'll spend almost as long farming as you do soloing.

I think most people that solo are pretty sick of PvE by the time they grind out the levels/feathers/cash to template. The last thing they want to do is spend half their time only grinding mobs just to afford TO SOLO.

I really think this is something that effects soloers far more than group players and should be addressed.

If you want more gold sinks in the game... make the Padding Merchants and skin merchants also cost a decent chunk of gold. Wouldn't effect people that don't want to farm, but will still take gold out of the economy.

Thu 25 Apr 2019 2:10 PM by Yokahu

After 12 pages of passionate discussions, have the devs reached a conclusion or are leaning towards one option?

Please share with us the status of the charge changes internal discussions

Thu 25 Apr 2019 4:18 PM by cere2

Honestly the whole approach to buff timers and charge buffs is anti-skill and stupid.

For example:

Someone was just in combat and just lost their buff potion, has to wait to use, someone else starts attacking. Person who was just in battle and lost this charge is dead.
What decided that win? Was it player skill? Nope...he lost because of a buff timer. Is this not stupid?

Two evenly matched assassin's find each other in rvr. One has perfectly timed his charge buffs and has his dex/qui str/con and spec AF all up. The other one has only had time to get Str/con up and was waiting on timers to get the other 2.
What decided that battle? Was it player skill? Nope....

See what I am getting at here? This game should be based on skill, and that shouldn't mean waiting at the PK until all your buffs are active for the next 4 minutes to go out and rvr as a solo etc. Some will be based on rng we all know that, but we want skill to have impacts on our fights. Did he land that side stun, did he hit that snare and kite to win etc, not well damn I was waiting on timers so I got hosed.

Buff npc's that last until you die, that give all the same buffs (blue) like now...unless in group should be the way to even the field, and allow those classes that can self buff..aka Thanes/Friars/Hunters/Rangers etc to have some meaning to their spec lines. Remove purple buffs from items.

Thu 25 Apr 2019 5:50 PM by semadin

cere2 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 4:18 PM
Honestly the whole approach to buff timers and charge buffs is anti-skill and stupid.

For example:

Someone was just in combat and just lost their buff potion, has to wait to use, someone else starts attacking. Person who was just in battle and lost this charge is dead.
What decided that win? Was it player skill? Nope...he lost because of a buff timer. Is this not stupid?

Yea this has been one of the main problems the entire existence of this game with buffs that exist on timers.

Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:35 PM by Halma

If no one has buffpots and charges everyone is always prepared an no one has an unfair advantage. No juggling with timers. Just go out an play your class.
Problem solved (in theory

).

I hope they still consider this option too.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:07 AM by Numatic

Halma wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:35 PM
If no one has buffpots and charges everyone is always prepared an no one has an unfair advantage. No juggling with timers. Just go out an play your class.
Problem solved (in theory ).

I hope they still consider this option too.

The problem with that is, anyone not grouped (especially stealthers and other ungroup friendly classes) will not be able to compete. It would alienate alot of classes.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 7:54 AM by Halma

Numatic wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:07 AM
Halma wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:35 PM
If no one has buffpots and charges everyone is always prepared an no one has an unfair advantage. No juggling with timers. Just go out an play your class.
Problem solved (in theory ).

I hope they still consider this option too.

The problem with that is, anyone not grouped (especially stealthers and other ungroup friendly classes) will not be able to compete. It would alienate alot of classes.

Especially stealthers usually can pick their targets freely, I don't know why this archetype is always the first one mentioned. I see your point though, you don't want to lose any opportunities you have at the moment and that's OK.
I played a shadowblade on live when there were no buffbots around (yes, I'm old). I had to carefully pick my targets (as it's supposed to be imho) but because no one had a buffbot/pots everyone had the same preconditions and that's the point of this thread I guess. I'd have never thought about attacking some specific classes back then, but that was OK for me. Rock paper scissors is in my opinion a basic principle which should not be broken by any class in the game (again - only my opinion).

If we get free buffs for everyone then speclines like beastcraft, pathfinding or the selfbuffs in stormcalling/Valor/Aug need to be adjusted (they already should have since the server started). Speccing into something must mean something. The baseline debuffs many classes have would need to be a looked at too. Debuffing a target without buffs is better than debuffing a target fully buffed (relatively speaking). The debuffs values would need to go up accordingly.

Imho it's not about "cheap buffs for everyone or not" but what questions (and how many) will newly arise with such a change. Sadly no one can see every side effect that will come due to a change, it's just too complex. Getting rid of buffpots/charges would lower the amount of variables which have to be taken into account though.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:16 AM by Jimmy0000

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
just introduce buff npcs and add speed charges then everyone is on an even playingfield, this makes room in the inventory and actually makes visible solo classes somewhat viable, if every death means you will lose all your charges and only waste money people will just behave even more orportunistic than they already do. And you still have damageadd/heal charges you can use.

I wholeheartedy agree with this. This is the perfect solution; it's what the i50 servers have done since the beginning. The tired, illogical argument of ''it kills buffing classes'' is one i'm tired of hearing, it's like another guy said, oftentimes full enhance specced classes aren't wanted in groups in the first place, at the expense of healing and CC lines they also have...
Even if it did ''kill buffing classes'' (which it wouldn't, all you see in pvp is pac healers and cave shamans, and smite clerics anyway) you can't forsake balance for all classes (via full buff mercahnt npcs) to cater to one specline for one class archetype, that's an absurd concept.

Mythic used to say at various times the classes were all presumed to be fully buffed when they made balance decisions.

This shouldn't even be a discussion anymore, because it's such an obvious solution.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 11:11 AM by Luluko

Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:16 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
just introduce buff npcs and add speed charges then everyone is on an even playingfield, this makes room in the inventory and actually makes visible solo classes somewhat viable, if every death means you will lose all your charges and only waste money people will just behave even more orportunistic than they already do. And you still have damageadd/heal charges you can use.

I wholeheartedy agree with this. This is the perfect solution; it's what the i50 servers have done since the beginning. The tired, illogical argument of ''it kills buffing classes'' is one i'm tired of hearing, it's like another guy said, oftentimes full enhance specced classes aren't wanted in groups in the first place, at the expense of healing and CC lines they also have...
Even if it did ''kill buffing classes'' (which it wouldn't, all you see in pvp is pac healers and cave shamans, and smite clerics anyway) you can't forsake balance for all classes (via full buff mercahnt npcs) to cater to one specline for one class archetype, that's an absurd concept.

Mythic used to say at various times the classes were all presumed to be fully buffed when they made balance decisions.

This shouldn't even be a discussion anymore, because it's such an obvious solution.

yeah this buff class argument is pretty weak anyway, sure mids could drop a shaman then and get another healer instead but hibs would still run at least 1 bard 2 druids they could even specc nature and have more to do than just healing and could rupt with ae root. Well friars will prolly still struggle to get grps but even without buff npcs they do.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 12:21 PM by Numatic

Halma wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 7:54 AM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:07 AM
Halma wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:35 PM
If no one has buffpots and charges everyone is always prepared an no one has an unfair advantage. No juggling with timers. Just go out an play your class.
Problem solved (in theory ).

I hope they still consider this option too.

The problem with that is, anyone not grouped (especially stealthers and other ungroup friendly classes) will not be able to compete. It would alienate alot of classes.

Especially stealthers usually can pick their targets freely, I don't know why this archetype is always the first one mentioned. I see your point though, you don't want to lose any opportunities you have at the moment and that's OK.
I played a shadowblade on live when there were no buffbots around (yes, I'm old). I had to carefully pick my targets (as it's supposed to be imho) but because no one had a buffbot/pots everyone had the same preconditions and that's the point of this thread I guess. I'd have never thought about attacking some specific classes back then, but that was OK for me. Rock paper scissors is in my opinion a basic principle which should not be broken by any class in the game (again - only my opinion).

If we get free buffs for everyone then speclines like beastcraft, pathfinding or the selfbuffs in stormcalling/Valor/Aug need to be adjusted (they already should have since the server started). Speccing into something must mean something. The baseline debuffs many classes have would need to be a looked at too. Debuffing a target without buffs is better than debuffing a target fully buffed (relatively speaking). The debuffs values would need to go up accordingly.

Imho it's not about "cheap buffs for everyone or not" but what questions (and how many) will newly arise with such a change. Sadly no one can see every side effect that will come due to a change, it's just too complex. Getting rid of buffpots/charges would lower the amount of variables which have to be taken into account though.

I played from release until ToA. That was shortly after release then, because about 3-4 months in buffbots started to show up and within 8-12 months they were everywhere. It's no secret that speccing for self buffs needs to be tweaked. And i get where you are coming from. That was the most fun I ever had playing DAoC when buffbots didnt exist, skills were minimal, and most people had not developed any kind of meta. Hell i was in my 40's on my first toon (champ) when they started discovering the power of PbAoE in PvE.

But think of it this way, if you have an 8man group, vs 12 solo/duo people, completely unbuffed, who is likely to win? Lots of playstyles exist for the reason of diversity, timing, personality, and in general what some find fun. If you gave the solo/duo people nothing (which make up a very large portion of RvR here) to buff with, it would kill the server because all of those solo and duo would get rolled harder with even more required to fight off someone who is fully buffed. On top of that, meta is a very real thing nowadays and the only way to feel viable as a class that is unwanted in groups is to be able to buff. A fully conc buffed person is worth roughly 3 people unbuffed imo. Depending on the class. This is especially true for melee's. So you would need at minimum roughly 24 solo unbuffed people to take on an 8man. And even then I have witnessed 8man groups kill more soloers than that in a fight here, and most of those people are using pots.

I agree with the Devs here that it is a lot more complex of an issue than alot of people say it is. Simply saying "take them away" or "give us full buff NPC's" would do alot more harm than good. What I don't agree with the devs on is that they will find an answer that they, and the rest of the community, will be satisfied with. Any choice they make is going to alienate a certain sect of players. Whether it be solo/duo/smallman players, 8 mans, certain classes like buffers etc..

In general the option they need to figure out is what will have the least overall impact on the entire server.

If they want my opinion ill give something i think would have the least impact

1. Dont change anything about the prices except for the 1 charge items
2. Reduce buff pots as follows
A. 1 charge remains 1 charge -Increase cost slightly
b. 10 charge change to 3
c. 30 charge change to 7
d. 100 charge change to 15

2. Increase buff duration to 1h
3. Make buffs last for login time. Meaning through death and even if you log out. This should help with any d/c issues some may have and lose buffs previously.
4. Increase buffpot to max levels without the same conc increase (see below)

Changes for conc and self buffing classes

Increase the value returned for higher conc based buffs (ex: 3hp per con up to 32 con buffed, then 5hp per point buffed after that) this can be done for str/qui/dex as well how their values increasingly affect them.

Self buffers- Increase the amount gained at a lower spec for the buffs. Increase value by 1/2 of the conc based buffs. (so if you got 3hp up to 32 con, and then got 5hp with a conc buff, selff buffing would give you 4hp)

Charges
Allow only 1 charge per type
buffs-1 per 10min
offensive- same tiime as now
Healing- same time as now

Defensive buff charges increase those stats to new conc increase levels

I havent dug too deeply into this suggestion. It just sounds good in my head atm.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 12:40 PM by Roto23

I only read page 1. But I always thought the death penalty here was too insignificant. Eliminate all buff/charge timers even for resists. They last forever and only drop when you die. This will increase the death penalty.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 12:49 PM by Yokahu

Numatic wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:07 AM
Halma wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:35 PM
If no one has buffpots and charges everyone is always prepared an no one has an unfair advantage. No juggling with timers. Just go out an play your class.
Problem solved (in theory ).

I hope they still consider this option too.

The problem with that is, anyone not grouped (especially stealthers and other ungroup friendly classes) will not be able to compete. It would alienate alot of classes.

Compete against who, grouped players with a buffer in their ranks? I don’t understand your argument. Why should a solo player compete against players in a group? Or are you saying that stealthers should be able to kill at least a player in a group before dying or vanishing?

Unbuffed solo players can compete against other unbuffed players... and please don’t bring friars into the topic

Fri 26 Apr 2019 12:53 PM by Numatic

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 12:49 PM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:07 AM
Halma wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:35 PM
If no one has buffpots and charges everyone is always prepared an no one has an unfair advantage. No juggling with timers. Just go out an play your class.
Problem solved (in theory ).

I hope they still consider this option too.

The problem with that is, anyone not grouped (especially stealthers and other ungroup friendly classes) will not be able to compete. It would alienate alot of classes.

Compete against who, grouped players with a buffer in their ranks? I don’t understand your argument. Why should a solo player compete against players in a group? Or are you saying that stealthers should be able to kill at least a player in a group before dying or vanishing?

Unbuffed solo players can compete against other unbuffed players... and please don’t bring friars into the topic

quite alot of solo players make up the majority of fights, including the zergs. Most of the zergs I have witnessed during primetime may have 1-2 fg and the rest are solo/duo/smallmans

it gives them more of a fighting chance against those 8mans mixed in with the fray. of course, being rolled over solo by an 8man wont change anything about how buffed you are. But it will help in those other situations. As well it wouldnt change buffed/unbuffed in a 1v1 either. However keep in mind offense and defense isnt always a 1-1 trade when buffed. So fully buffed one class might beat another, but unbuffed they may lose spectacularly.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 1:37 PM by Horus

My suggestion (and I use charged buff items) it to eliminate them completely. Why?

1. It levels the solo playing field, if no one has charges it should bring everyone down the same.
2. It encourages grouping and small man with buffing classes. Right now buffing classes while valuable, are not as valuable as they could/should be.
3. It brings classes with self buffs more in line with the intended balance of classes.
4. It probably stretches out 1 on 1 fights a little longer. I think this a good thing. Adds? Maybe? Who cares? They can go either way equally. The already spoiled assassin community has there precious "vanish"? Being able to blast kill someone down in 5 seconds is cheesy anyway.

To me it is a win win win win. Sure solo vs grp takes a hit but you were not going to win vs a group anyway so that should not be taken into consideration.

What to do with the items? Either add versions with bonus stats to make them high utility...maybe add a +cap stat so you can increase certain the stat cap of certain stats?
If nothing else just give players the option to trade them back in for an equal number of feathers

I would recommend doing this as a trial. Eliminate buff charges for two weeks and release the hounds. Monitor how things are going. If issues arise reinstate them and look for other options.

Thank you for asking for community input. It is refreshing.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 1:59 PM by Sido

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Apr 2019 8:16 PM
As almost expected most people didn't read the "things to keep in mind" section. Most suggestions from solos so far only made their live as solo better but entirely ignored the potential effects it would have on group play.

There is no way we are just going to increase the duration of charges, it keeps the cost issue and makes charges a lot more prevalent and might even increase the time people wait afk at the pks until their charge timers are up.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the recharge costs, doesn't really fix anything and only very slightly lessens the pain.
There is no way we are just going to reduce the charge timer as that would make the cost and prevalence of charge buffs a lot worse forcing everyone to have every possible charge buff and it would heavily affect PR in fights.

Combining any, or even all, of the above would fix the usage issues, however, it would require everyone to have every possible charge buff and has the potential to affect group compositions or specs of people in the group as it would then become conceivable to trade a buffer / buff spec for something else.

We do not ever want buffs from items to be better or about as good as buffs from buff classes (acuity doesn't count because reasons, see sos breaking mechanics for more info).

As someone already suggested previously, one simple solution which fits all those requirements is to allow only one charge buff from items up at a time. That combined with few other suggestions (some already done) :
- more charge per item (less used slots in bag)
- a reduced re-use timer of buff charges only to 10/20sec
- persistence on death
- a void-effect of it during the 30s/1min following the rez/release to let death still be a quite important loss in group fights and rewards fast rebuffing teammates, maybe make also charge buff able to co-exist (but not stack) with casted buff instead of being overridden, like hastener speed when you already have speed5 class with you.

This will still :
- provide work and money for alchemists with current full buff potions (the player is still involved in social interactions and server economy, instead of only money sink npc as interaction for everybody)
- allow smallmen/soloers to get buffs through current fullbuff pot + 1 charge to keep the feeling of being faster than unbuff, but they'll have to choose (no more 50 charge items in bag to be full purple buffs)
- don't impact too much groupplay through PR
- selfbuff spec (PF, BC, etc) are again rewarding, so SB/NS/Inf currently kings of the hill are no longer able to kill anybody at anytime and have again some nemesis (other than friar + reflex Attack) to let them be engaged/killed by smallmen only (providing fight i.e. reason to go out for smallmen).

Fri 26 Apr 2019 2:36 PM by jwalker

people act like buff classes are only running buff bots and that they had no use in groups if some sort of buff bots/pots existed - which is just plain wrong. Let's quickly look at an extreme scenario - tomorrow all character have 155 points vamp buffs. How would that change the group play meta? Are buff classes suddenly dead? Or do these classes apparently have other qualities IN THE BUFF LI NE that makes them wanted in group despite the vamp buffs?`

Shaman: resist buffs, endurance buff, damage add (can be runemaster), buffs for pets
Aug Healer: resist buffs, pet buffs, celerity!
Druid: Resists, pet buffs -> is it actually a problem that the second druid would be a nature druid? I feel not!
Bard: Songs
Warden: selfbuffs, resists, bubble
Friar: resists, selfbuffs <- if friar is not grouped it's due to other lines
Cleric: resists, AF -> yes second cleric could be smite, but isn't that a good thing?

Further, people act like these classes ONLY bring buffs to the group and nothing else, but thats again totally wrong. Isn't the fact that an aug healer is in a group providing baseline cc, denmezz, celerity AND heals a big plus? Why does the group also need stat advantage? Shouldn't the group synergy alone give THE major advantage over the "solos" attacking them? I mean

Shaman: baseline cc, disease (rupt), getto heals/rezz, minor damage on top of the above
Aug healer: spreadheal, instant heals, demezz, baseline mezz/stun and much more
Druid: getto pet, spread heal, instant heal, base cc
Bard: major cc line, instant rupt, minor heal line
Warden: minor melee, some heals on top of resists and bubble
Friar: minor melee or heals (you can see why warden and friar don't have a perfect standing, it's cause their support lines are rather weak)
Cleric: base stun, base dd, major heal line

I'm not saying I want 155 vamp buffs, in fact I posted a hybrid system for buffing today which does account for a reasonable stat advantage for buffer and selfbuffing classes, but I wanted to show that buff lines and buff classes overall DO bring a lot to the groups ASIDE from the stat buffs

Fri 26 Apr 2019 3:05 PM by djegu

Don't forget that if you remove buffpot entirely you will penalize people that solo grind XP as well, like indesirable class

Fri 26 Apr 2019 3:45 PM by Mauriac

Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 4:27 AM
Agreed with pretty much everything phixion said.

Spec charges need a 5 second cooldown so we can roll out without disadvantage. Reduce the cost if you feel it's necessary. As a solo player I feel the money from kills/tasks/BP sales sustains my buffing habits with minimal supplemental farm on my SM.

In combat damage add/legion charges need to keep 2-5 minutes CD that are shared making people choose vs durability in a fight or burst.

Draughts for haste/damage shield for inventory clean up.

That or add full buff NPCs that last until death.

I agree with mavella and phixion but I have one major concern. If we put DA and Heal charges on their own CD and/or extend the duration of curre t charges don't we run the risk of a TOA like situation where the winner is whoever has their special charge up or not? That is a big reason why TOA sucked ass. The solo game in particular devolved into whoever had the most actives available at any point in time, won. Now, I'm not saying that an 11.3dps DA is as OP Arrogance from a malice axe or the self licking ice cream cone of ablative invincibility like a shades of mist cloak but it is definitely a big fight winner and heavily tips the scales in favor of who has it up.

I do like the suggestions phix made but I would add reduce the damage add charge from 11. 3 to something like 5 or 6 fps and reduce the HoL heal value by 30%. These things should be helpful but in their current form they're borderline "I-Win" buttons and if we went down this road further with some of these changes they would be definite "I-Win" buttons

Fri 26 Apr 2019 4:24 PM by Lollie

"the self licking ice cream cone of ablative invincibility like a shades of mist cloak"

I think this is the quote of the day

Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:55 PM by cere2

Honestly if you want the communities input, put the ideas here to the test.
Votes.

1.) List the different ideas and have community vote on them.
2.) Put top 3 or 4 voted changes into effect in an event zone at different times. Can be tested in 8v8/smallman/solo. Though I would imagine 8v8 would have zero effect...
Could test each change for a week then get feedback on the different changes and possibly another vote on the 4 and come up with final solution.
Essentially this would be like a penedragon that is created in-game etc.

Granted this could take some time, but overall I think it would really bring out the pro's and con's of proposed changes, even if your team doesn't agree with some, this allows you to see the outcomes before putting it in permanently.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 9:50 PM by Zirc

Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:16 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
just introduce buff npcs and add speed charges then everyone is on an even playingfield, this makes room in the inventory and actually makes visible solo classes somewhat viable, if every death means you will lose all your charges and only waste money people will just behave even more orportunistic than they already do. And you still have damageadd/heal charges you can use.

I wholeheartedy agree with this. This is the perfect solution; it's what the i50 servers have done since the beginning. The tired, illogical argument of ''it kills buffing classes'' is one i'm tired of hearing, it's like another guy said, oftentimes full enhance specced classes aren't wanted in groups in the first place, at the expense of healing and CC lines they also have...
Even if it did ''kill buffing classes'' (which it wouldn't, all you see in pvp is pac healers and cave shamans, and smite clerics anyway) you can't forsake balance for all classes (via full buff mercahnt npcs) to cater to one specline for one class archetype, that's an absurd concept.

Mythic used to say at various times the classes were all presumed to be fully buffed when they made balance decisions.

This shouldn't even be a discussion anymore, because it's such an obvious solution.

Just because you're tired of hearing it doesn't mean it's wrong. Look at friars, for example, who spend the majority of their points going high into enhance to get their self buffs along with resists. When you can buy those self buffs on any class, that diminishes the usefulness of points in that spec. Suddenly that self dex/quick buff isn't unique, because anyone can spend X gold on it and have the same thing. If everyone could down a speed pot, speed classes would suffer. Imagine if you could spend X gold and have some other class's ability. What if, like buffs, you could get a determination pot? Or maybe you could get a stealth pot? Stealthers get buffs, why shouldn't buffers get stealth?

Sounds ridiculous, right? Homogeneity isn't balance. If people want buffs, group with buff classes. Just like you'd group with a speed class if you want speed. Just because certain classes are still played despite the imbalance doesn't mean things are balanced. Just because some person from Mythic said something at some point in the past doesn't mean it's the gospel.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:16 PM by Cadeg

i've read the entire thread and as far is i am concerned i'm more for delete charge buff / buff pots ...
let me explain :
1/ hunter and ranger will have to spec into their BC / Buff lines to have some advantage ( for the moment most of them ignore this spec due to buff charge who are more effective than their own spec ) and can be a good reason to spec into it ... on other hand, remove Reflex Attack from the list for friar / zerk / BM / merc, they can take some more goodies instead ...
2/ without these charge buff and to be force to spec into buff lines spec ( and without af charge buff on most of their target ) they will have some significant damage boost from archery too, so not a bad trade for them
3/ maybe if you really want to do " pure " solo, you'll have to choose your target a little more " optimistic " if i can say, instead of jumping on everything is moving on see ...
4/ remake damage from pets more realistic, and with real comp ( aka empyrean elder with yellow buff spec or some other on alb fz ), can give some goodies for small man too with that extra buff for small man / solo
5/ alchimist can always craft proc / heal pots / power pots / regen endo pots / dd charge ( or debuff charge ), so not useless
6/ if you want to have buff, group some people who can buff you, can surprise a lot of people sometimes ( sham with sb / hunter // cleric with inf/scout // drood with ns/ranger ), some of my more memorable fight are with some stealth members group with me fighting elitist 8man by surprise

( and i'm saying that as an old lone enfoncer friar on live before broadsword BS, and playing a lot too in small man / 8v8 / 8vX )

Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:22 PM by Riac

i would 100% not play at all if they got rid of buff pots or made it more difficult in some way, playing unbuffed feels slow and awful. the buff pots not stacking on uth 2.0 was the sole reason i didnt play and my inf was fully temped by the end of the month after the release of it.

Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:35 PM by Cadeg

Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:22 PM
i would 100% not play at all if they got rid of buff pots or made it more difficult in some way, playing unbuffed feels slow and awful.

well, seems you haven't play a lot on live where everyone is buff ... if no one is buff expect the class who can selfbuff, it just remake some balance ...
why not try that for one or two week, make a poll and see how everyone feel this feature ...
and if you want to try some challenge, go as a solo buffspec class on live vs shield tanks with fullbuff and all the goodies toa + catacomb + CL give to everyone, i think you will see very fast what a challenge is when you have to face off a valkyrie/thane/champ ( when it's not a heavy tank with 50+ shield )

Sat 27 Apr 2019 12:53 AM by Bradekes

Zirc wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 9:50 PM
Just because you're tired of hearing it doesn't mean it's wrong. Look at friars, for example, who spend the majority of their points going high into enhance to get their self buffs along with resists. When you can buy those self buffs on any class, that diminishes the usefulness of points in that spec. Suddenly that self dex/quick buff isn't unique

How about everyone gets free full strength base buffs then we can remove all charges and all buff pots then it wouldn't diminish anyone's spec buffs and everyone can be more closely on the same page without too much discrepancy

Sat 27 Apr 2019 2:09 AM by Riac

Cadeg wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:35 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:22 PM
i would 100% not play at all if they got rid of buff pots or made it more difficult in some way, playing unbuffed feels slow and awful.

well, seems you haven't play a lot on live where everyone is buff ... if no one is buff expect the class who can selfbuff, it just remake some balance ...
why not try that for one or two week, make a poll and see how everyone feel this feature ...
and if you want to try some challenge, go as a solo buffspec class on live vs shield tanks with fullbuff and all the goodies toa + catacomb + CL give to everyone, i think you will see very fast what a challenge is when you have to face off a valkyrie/thane/champ ( when it's not a heavy tank with 50+ shield )

what are you even talking about? that is referring to making buffing more difficult in some way....

Sat 27 Apr 2019 2:49 AM by RaisingSun

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Apr 2019 12:33 PM
Charges as we have them right now are mostly fine in groups with a normal buffer: most people don't charge anything, many people charge one thing, few people charge 2 things. Usually spec af is charged and in case of caster acuity or in case of some str based melees spec dex. Also fine: the buff potions

However, in small groups or when running solo it feels as if it is required to charge as much as possible, that means spec af, and either of spec str or spec dex at a minimum followed by the other of the two asap as well as keeping up all the other things like damage shield and damage add. This either forces people to wait for 2 charge times or make them start a run with a disadvantage compared to someone who charges. In any case, due to the existence of charges solo people are / feel forced to charge as much as possible driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable (the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone).

My opinion, that's shared with some staff members, is that it would be nice to somehow get to a point where the charge timer is not used for long duration buffs but for something that's used in combat, examples just to get the point across: magic + melee ablative, 30s secondary melee / magic resist or even a hot. Those new charge things could even be on another, separate timer so that heal / mana charges would still be usable. The advantage of such a situation would be that the items providing charges are still very desirable while there is no feeling of being forced to wait until one is fully charged up or that one wasted 50g on a run just to get zerged 10 seconds later as charges are only used on demand in a fight.

An alternative to the above would be the removal of buff charges entirely.

However, even if people agree that either of the above would be a desirable situation there would be a couple changes required to not really change the group play:
1) Lifting of the 20 buff limit
2) Increasing the available conc
3) Giving bards and healer spec af

Then there would still be the problem of what to do with the charge items people already have / their feather investments. Buff charge items are a huge part of why people raid / what people buy, it would hence be required to make those items have / do something that still makes them desirable / that there is an appropriate alternative for the same amount of feathers (in which case either a feather refund would be needed or a trade in for whatever the alternative is).

The reason nothing has happened is that we are unsure what to do with the existing items.
A potentially slightly weird solution would be the removal of mastery of arcane (reintroduced OF ra due to lack of buff bonus) and introduction of reverse buff bonus that would affect all buffs casted on you, including the buff potion, instead of the normal buff bonus that works on outgoing buffs. This could be introduced as additional "gems" that can be added onto existing armor / accessories and would be available for feathers as well as tradeable for the existing charge items.
This would change the buff potion values to about 86 for stats where base and spec is available compared to the 101 currently available via potion base and charge spec.

Since we cannot really find a consensus internally, we'd like to have some more community input on the matter.

A couple things to keep in mind:
This is not about buff potions, those are considered fine
Increasing the charge duration would not help as it would even exacerbate the problem as now everyone would be expected to literally charge everything
Reducing the charge cost would only help the cost factor and also slightly exacerbate the problem as again, now everyone would charge more
Making charges free and only allowing a single charge would devalue the charge items as now everyone only needs a single one
This is not about alternative charge buffs but the mechanic / goal itself.

"Since we cannot really find a consensus internally, we'd like to have some more community input on the matter."

It's too late. You losing player faster then Uthgard. Make it harder and you guys can just go on early summer vacation. Uthgard never listened, and neither did you guys(Maybe your not capable to understanding or resolving the problem).
All my friends quit. Stealthers and solo/small man's tired of the buff situation and cost/timers. You guys brought this on yourself. daoc is a 80/20 game. 80% casual and 20% hard core players that play in guild and "elite" players.
The comparison to uthgard is so ironic and satisfying.
No one wants to do 1/2 day of farming those stupid feathers just to get a piece of armor or gear. Nobody wants to pay 10 plat a week for charges and potions on short timers and making it to where you can even afford it.Whoever came up with these ideas should be drawn and quartered.
Humiliating people because they want to use a 2nd acct. and dual logging on your silly little ban page is the most stupid and divisive thing I have seen since Uthtard did it. You don't a have a tight, close, great community, but a splintered, frustrated , tired player base.
1/10 fun
1/10 Player support
You guys will never get it.
280 players last night pst, and in a month is will be 199 or less. RIP

Fix is soooo simple and you guys can't even see the light.

Remove Feathers and all that garbage. Increase drops in dungeons to where people can actually get some good stuff.
Get rid of all that ROG garbage and let people salvage like live. ( You ever look at all that crap in housing, that no one wants?)
Balance classes and RA's
Yellow Buff merchants like Live
Allow 2nd acct. and or bot usage and or dual logging. Get rid of that damn ban page.Your problem is not too many players, so allow it.
Make all potions cheaper and longer duration's and they will come.......

You're Welcome

Sat 27 Apr 2019 5:36 AM by AngelRose

I quit playing a couple of weeks ago because of charges and how fucked up archery is. I check back once in a while to see if these have been addressed. Dead silence on archery, and weird stance on how to handle charges from the dev's has been a bit disappointing. But, this is their game. They do it for free. I don't begrudge them their decisions. If I am not having fun, I move on.

So, though I may agree with some of what you say, I totally disagree about the shame thread. I think that is great. Cheaters should be called out and shamed. It's not that hard to understand the rules. If you don't like them, move on. If you cheat, you are not playing the same game and have a huge advantage. Doing everything they can to keep cheaters out of the game,and shaming them, is one of the best things dev's have done. Many people quit Ywain because cheating was so out of control, and devs rarely did a thing about it.

Sat 27 Apr 2019 9:17 AM by Jimmy0000

Zirc wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 9:50 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:16 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:43 AM
just introduce buff npcs and add speed charges then everyone is on an even playingfield, this makes room in the inventory and actually makes visible solo classes somewhat viable, if every death means you will lose all your charges and only waste money people will just behave even more orportunistic than they already do. And you still have damageadd/heal charges you can use.

I wholeheartedy agree with this. This is the perfect solution; it's what the i50 servers have done since the beginning. The tired, illogical argument of ''it kills buffing classes'' is one i'm tired of hearing, it's like another guy said, oftentimes full enhance specced classes aren't wanted in groups in the first place, at the expense of healing and CC lines they also have...
Even if it did ''kill buffing classes'' (which it wouldn't, all you see in pvp is pac healers and cave shamans, and smite clerics anyway) you can't forsake balance for all classes (via full buff mercahnt npcs) to cater to one specline for one class archetype, that's an absurd concept.

Mythic used to say at various times the classes were all presumed to be fully buffed when they made balance decisions.

This shouldn't even be a discussion anymore, because it's such an obvious solution.

Just because you're tired of hearing it doesn't mean it's wrong. Look at friars, for example, who spend the majority of their points going high into enhance to get their self buffs along with resists. When you can buy those self buffs on any class, that diminishes the usefulness of points in that spec. Suddenly that self dex/quick buff isn't unique, because anyone can spend X gold on it and have the same thing. If everyone could down a speed pot, speed classes would suffer. Imagine if you could spend X gold and have some other class's ability. What if, like buffs, you could get a determination pot? Or maybe you could get a stealth pot? Stealthers get buffs, why shouldn't buffers get stealth?

Sounds ridiculous, right? Homogeneity isn't balance. If people want buffs, group with buff classes. Just like you'd group with a speed class if you want speed. Just because certain classes are still played despite the imbalance doesn't mean things are balanced. Just because some person from Mythic said something at some point in the past doesn't mean it's the gospel.

Every time I hear arguments against buff merchants, it's just emotional arguments, illogical arguments, or logical fallacies. Thanks for adding to that with this:

"If everyone could down a speed pot, speed classes would suffer."
---------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

Faulty Comparison
(also known as: bad comparison, false comparison, inconsistent comparison [form of])

Description: Comparing one thing to another that is really not related, in order to make one thing look more or less desirable than it really is.
-------------------------------

As to this:

"When you can buy those self buffs on any class, that diminishes the usefulness of points in that spec. "

You can't forsake fundamental balance for all classes because of some specline that should have never existed in the first place, that only one class archetype (healers) has.
You guys are surely reading my text, yet you're somehow not hearing it, because I just typed this very point out on my first post.

"If people want buffs, group with buff classes."

I can't help but think we stumbled upon the greatest DAOC philosopher of all time. Yes, please reinforce one of the main if not the main reason why people are always zerging. I can't wait to continue getting run down by 8+ people who refuse to stop zerging because they will literally be 90 percent less effective with no buffs, or those weak pot buffs that barely do anything, that go down in 10 minutes, that you have to PVE to obtain, and/or grind up ALCH, when you're not remotely interested in doing so...

Mythic put buff merchants in the game for a reason, mythic stated at various times in grab bags classes were presumed to be fully buffed for balance purposes. Next.

Sat 27 Apr 2019 4:09 PM by pollojack

I'd prefer 15-20 min duration and extend through death. This encourages people to keep playing longer. When I hit my collection task/egg amount but my tinder still has two minutes I stay.

Could also have an npc/item that fires all your buff charges at once and deducts one charge from each item.

That being said the limit of one buff charge is also good. Forces people to choose dmg or defense. Solos are unlikely to be able to do much to smallmans and 8 mans anyway so comparing buffs versus them doesn't make sense.

Sat 27 Apr 2019 4:38 PM by Zirc

Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Apr 2019 9:17 AM
Zirc wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 9:50 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 10:16 AM
I wholeheartedy agree with this. This is the perfect solution; it's what the i50 servers have done since the beginning. The tired, illogical argument of ''it kills buffing classes'' is one i'm tired of hearing, it's like another guy said, oftentimes full enhance specced classes aren't wanted in groups in the first place, at the expense of healing and CC lines they also have...
Even if it did ''kill buffing classes'' (which it wouldn't, all you see in pvp is pac healers and cave shamans, and smite clerics anyway) you can't forsake balance for all classes (via full buff mercahnt npcs) to cater to one specline for one class archetype, that's an absurd concept.

Mythic used to say at various times the classes were all presumed to be fully buffed when they made balance decisions.

This shouldn't even be a discussion anymore, because it's such an obvious solution.

Just because you're tired of hearing it doesn't mean it's wrong. Look at friars, for example, who spend the majority of their points going high into enhance to get their self buffs along with resists. When you can buy those self buffs on any class, that diminishes the usefulness of points in that spec. Suddenly that self dex/quick buff isn't unique, because anyone can spend X gold on it and have the same thing. If everyone could down a speed pot, speed classes would suffer. Imagine if you could spend X gold and have some other class's ability. What if, like buffs, you could get a determination pot? Or maybe you could get a stealth pot? Stealthers get buffs, why shouldn't buffers get stealth?

Sounds ridiculous, right? Homogeneity isn't balance. If people want buffs, group with buff classes. Just like you'd group with a speed class if you want speed. Just because certain classes are still played despite the imbalance doesn't mean things are balanced. Just because some person from Mythic said something at some point in the past doesn't mean it's the gospel.

Every time I hear arguments against buff merchants, it's just emotional arguments, illogical arguments, or logical fallacies. Thanks for adding to that with this:

"If everyone could down a speed pot, speed classes would suffer."
---------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

Faulty Comparison
(also known as: bad comparison, false comparison, inconsistent comparison [form of])

Description: Comparing one thing to another that is really not related, in order to make one thing look more or less desirable than it really is.
-------------------------------

As to this:

"When you can buy those self buffs on any class, that diminishes the usefulness of points in that spec. "

You can't forsake fundamental balance for all classes because of some specline that should have never existed in the first place, that only one class archetype (healers) has.
You guys are surely reading my text, yet you're somehow not hearing it, because I just typed this very point out on my first post.

"If people want buffs, group with buff classes."

I can't help but think we stumbled upon the greatest DAOC philosopher of all time. Yes, please reinforce one of the main if not the main reason why people are always zerging. I can't wait to continue getting run down by 8+ people who refuse to stop zerging because they will literally be 90 percent less effective with no buffs, or those weak pot buffs that barely do anything, that go down in 10 minutes, that you have to PVE to obtain, and/or grind up ALCH, when you're not remotely interested in doing so...

Mythic put buff merchants in the game for a reason, mythic stated at various times in grab bags classes were presumed to be fully buffed for balance purposes. Next.

It's quite possible that people read your text, hear it, and disagree. Your post is confusing, because it too reads like "an emotional, illogical argument". But people are entitled to their own opinions. You said that "You can't forsake fundamental balance for all classes because of some specline that should have never existed in the first place", which just tells me you're either arguing for some strange version of the game where three of the most important classes are wildly changed or you don't see the irony of your own post, calling me out on logical fallacies.

Let's be clear: people leave the game for any number of reasons. Some of them are completely out of our control, like real life responsibilities, while others are issues they have with the game itself. This one change won't fix them all, nor can we ever expect to. Mythic didn't stumble onto the perfect formula way back when. It's wonderful, and it inspired us enough to continue caring all these years later, but changes and iterations are great ways to improve. This thread wouldn't exist if the devs didn't truly care about finding a sweet spot and improving on the base of the game. The devs have shown that they're up for big changes that may or may not improve the game, but they keep their ears to the ground and adapt to the changes quickly. I don't believe anyone can truly say how a change like the removal of buff pots would affect player happiness until it was live, something people were experiencing first-hand for a week. If it had unintended consequences, I have complete faith that the devs would flip a switch and revert the changes.

That said, I stand by my statement that buff pots reduce the effectiveness and desirability of any class that buffs.

Sun 28 Apr 2019 5:34 AM by jhaerik

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Apr 2019 5:36 AM
I quit playing a couple of weeks ago because of charges and how fucked up archery is. I check back once in a while to see if these have been addressed. Dead silence on archery, and weird stance on how to handle charges from the dev's has been a bit disappointing. But, this is their game. They do it for free. I don't begrudge them their decisions. If I am not having fun, I move on.

So, though I may agree with some of what you say, I totally disagree about the shame thread. I think that is great. Cheaters should be called out and shamed. It's not that hard to understand the rules. If you don't like them, move on. If you cheat, you are not playing the same game and have a huge advantage. Doing everything they can to keep cheaters out of the game,and shaming them, is one of the best things dev's have done. Many people quit Ywain because cheating was so out of control, and devs rarely did a thing about it.

The thing is they aren't "cheating."

They are playing the game how 1.65 was ACTUALLY played. no one did all that charge juggling, pot buffing nonsense. Every single serious solo'er or small man had a buff bot. I came from EQ (on which I 3 boxed at the time, and 6 boxed The Realm Online before it back in 97 - 98.) and by my 3rd day on DAoC had a second account going back pre SI. 2001

I DO understand the automation hate/macro group hate. I don't understand the buff bot hate. Or the multibox hate. I mean you act like people actually group to level. Everyone I see just goes from task item turn-in to task item turn-in, suicides in RvR, and turns in Snow/Eggs.

Also why ban people for names that would have been 100% fine on live. You realize there are going to be ZERO new players right? Every person you ban for something stupid is one more player DAoC loves. Example (hypothetical) Good job, you banned a guy named Frumpybutseks. He played a Pac Healer. How did that help anyone exactly? You might have lost 1-2 other players just because they got sick of never being able to find healers. What was the gain exactly? You aren't going to get that guy back, and there is not going to be a magically replacement person cloned to replace him. It's just one more loss for the game, and you are bleeding players at 3x the rate Uthgard did.

I also don't understand banning AFK farming BD's... That been a thing on DAoC since the the Class was added.

People act like multiboxing wasn't already a thing in the 90's and DAoC invented it, and it was terrible. In reality it fixes EVERY SINGLE ISSUE IN THIS THREAD, AND WE FIGURED THAT OUT IN 2001. WHY DON'T THE DEVS GET IT?

Seriously people act like every single person would need a buff bot... man buff sharing was a common thing back in the day. So was leaving your on for a buddy so he could keep leveling if you needed to sleep... cause life. Also not being able to box KILLED the PL scene entirely. So instead of people PL'ing that alts and friends... everyone just solos. HOW is this better?

Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:55 AM by AngelRose

A game is nothing but a set of rules everyone agrees to abide by. Not really sure how to explain to you that it is cheating if you agree to play a game, but don't follow the rules that everyone else does. You don't like the rules..so don't play. Not liking the rules does not justify breaking the rules (cheating).

I don't like some of the rules. So, I am not playing. I am not going to break the rules, then get mad if I get caught and shamed. You are not a paying customer, who the devs need to try to placate. Devs could decide tomorrow to make huge changes, or even shut this down. They created this shard on their own time. This is not an exact replica of any patch. And, keep in mind it is a game. No more, no less. You are way to invested in a shard. I fell into the same hole. I came to this shard with high hopes. I miss daoc and Ywain is horrible. Once I started playing, I became disappointed and made a few rage posts. Then....I remembered. This is basically someone's hobby and they are not obligated to create a game to match my expectations.

Sun 28 Apr 2019 3:49 PM by jhaerik

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 7:55 AM
A game is nothing but a set of rules everyone agrees to abide by. Not really sure how to explain to you that it is cheating if you agree to play a game, but don't follow the rules that everyone else does. You don't like the rules..so don't play. Not liking the rules does not justify breaking the rules (cheating).

I don't like some of the rules. So, I am not playing. I am not going to break the rules, then get mad if I get caught and shamed. You are not a paying customer, who the devs need to try to placate. Devs could decide tomorrow to make huge changes, or even shut this down. They created this shard on their own time. This is not an exact replica of any patch. And, keep in mind it is a game. No more, no less. You are way to invested in a shard. I fell into the same hole. I came to this shard with high hopes. I miss daoc and Ywain is horrible. Once I started playing, I became disappointed and made a few rage posts. Then....I remembered. This is basically someone's hobby and they are not obligated to create a game to match my expectations.

The other point here is if they are going to have an open forum they should be prepared to take flak. I've been against the no buff-bot freeshard thing from the beginning and I still am. DAoC is not a game that works properly without buffs. Just like EQ. It's a dumb rule and it makes 1.65 play badly. With total stats sooooooo low pre ToA/pre champ levels ect... the difference in being buffed and unbuffed is outlandishly huge. I mean with people running around with 1k-1.6k hits and 120-230 stats the difference in + 300-500 hits and +75 to 155 stats is gamebreaking.

Sun 28 Apr 2019 11:42 PM by RaisingSun

Dark Age of Camelot ALWAYS allowed buffs to all players, by grouping or leveling a class that has buffs. Including multi-accts. Make it is like current and people will enjoy the grind to 50, template then start RVR. Only thing, the buffs are 3rd tier, short 10 min timers, with 3:00 reuse timers. That gets old after a few weeks and plain expensive. Farming in mid is a complete joke and you have to buy plat just to buy pots or level alch for pots.

I really don't believe the people running this daoc version use common sense. It's so easy to fix and people just continue to suffer. I wish they would change. Playing my SB isn't fun anymore.

Guess don't like the rules, don't play.

But this thread is supposed to be about suggestions, and frankly, most people have limited mental functions to even talk on this subject.

Simply make yellow con buff merchants and all this conversation goes way. Really sooo ....simple. Everyone hates charges, timers and cost!

Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:10 AM by AngelRose

Just to clarify, I don't disagree with your ideas. Devs requested suggestions. Ofc, everyone should post ideas

I was just against that whole cheating justification

Mon 29 Apr 2019 1:03 PM by FFpheonix

If the Devs want to lower the amount of Charges being used in groups, where the players form a balanced group, then increasing the amount of Concentration and raising the buff cap would solve part of the problem. If the buff cap is raised to 26-28 and Concentration raised to match, there would be very few Charges used while in groups.

It sounds like the Devs are happy with the way Buff Pots work for solos, and with a few tweaks more people would be happy with them as well.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 1:33 PM by Sepplord

FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 1:03 PM
If the Devs want to lower the amount of Charges being used in groups, where the players form a balanced group, then increasing the amount of Concentration and raising the buff cap would solve part of the problem. If the buff cap is raised to 26-28 and Concentration raised to match, there would be very few Charges used while in groups.

It sounds like the Devs are happy with the way Buff Pots work for solos, and with a few tweaks more people would be happy with them as well.

Are you trolling?
The opening post from gruenesschaf literally starts like this:

Charges as we have them right now are mostly fine in groups with a normal buffer: most people don't charge anything, many people charge one thing, few people charge 2 things. Usually spec af is charged and in case of caster acuity or in case of some str based melees spec dex. Also fine: the buff potions

However, in small groups or when running solo it feels as if it is required to charge as much as possible

Mon 29 Apr 2019 2:08 PM by FFpheonix

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 1:33 PM
FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 1:03 PM
If the Devs want to lower the amount of Charges being used in groups, where the players form a balanced group, then increasing the amount of Concentration and raising the buff cap would solve part of the problem. If the buff cap is raised to 26-28 and Concentration raised to match, there would be very few Charges used while in groups.

It sounds like the Devs are happy with the way Buff Pots work for solos, and with a few tweaks more people would be happy with them as well.

Are you trolling?
The opening post from gruenesschaf literally starts like this:

Charges as we have them right now are mostly fine in groups with a normal buffer: most people don't charge anything, many people charge one thing, few people charge 2 things. Usually spec af is charged and in case of caster acuity or in case of some str based melees spec dex. Also fine: the buff potions

However, in small groups or when running solo it feels as if it is required to charge as much as possible

However, even if people agree that either of the above would be a desirable situation there would be a couple changes required to not really change the group play:
1) Lifting of the 20 buff limit
2) Increasing the available conc
3) Giving bards and healer spec af

Mon 29 Apr 2019 3:26 PM by Sepplord

uhhh....yes?
thanks for quoting even more examples from the OP that substantiate my point..?

Mon 29 Apr 2019 4:37 PM by Bobbahunter

My suggestion is for the Recharger.

Can you make it like a NPC healer ( heal con ) where I click on it and can recharge EVERYTHING on me that is low at once? If I only want to recharge one item ( who would? ) the I can drag it to the merchant just in case you don't have enough gold.

Buff Pots could be a little longer 15 mins and carry through death.

Ability to make Draughts of Shard skin and Combat speed

Make feathers tradeable. It’s a currency.

Increase Hunter pets so they can OH wait, that's for another thread

Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:16 PM by cere2

Seen a lot of people saying eliminate charges. Put in NPC yellow buffs that last until death.

This is the easiest fix I can see atm that evens the field.

The excuse that buff classes lose their usefulness is garbage, they already dismissed that point when they brought in potion buffs anyways.

Live had buffbots. Phoenix has buff potions/charges...really the only difference is that if your timers are not perfect, you can lose a battle just because of that. i always thought Daoc had a mixture of rng vs skill. Potion timers/charges just make the skill part obsolete.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:24 PM by Bobbahunter

I do have a question.

If Let’s say there’s a yellow buff merchant and you have buffs and die. Will those go away even if. Rezzed ? They should

Buff potion buffs should carry over if rezzed. Make it still a reason to craft them.

Plus no buff merchant Buffs in pve.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:14 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bobbahunter wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 5:24 PM
I do have a question.

If Let’s say there’s a yellow buff merchant and you have buffs and die. Will those go away even if. Rezzed ? They should

Buff potion buffs should carry over if rezzed. Make it still a reason to craft them.

Plus no buff merchant Buffs in pve.

Woah, now here is an interesting point. In order to keep potions valuable for crafting, allow them to carry over after death. NPC buffs can be purchased for coin but disappear after death.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 6:28 PM by Bobbahunter

Last suggestion I promise

You have to own all your keeps and the Buff merchant spawns? People want another incentive to take keeps? If one of your keeps gets taken you still keep the buffs until you die or log. Make pots still needed.

Or tie buff merchant to owning your relics? Idk

Tue 30 Apr 2019 7:55 AM by Lanfear

remove all buff items, buffing skill lines and stuff. move the non-stat-enhancement-spells to the mending line. give every character vampiir stats enhancements.

Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:45 AM by pax

Put every charges in combined forces potion, refund feathers charge item and the game will be more enjoyable for solo and casual play.
I was almost taking off when i discovered that my opponents were using 3\4\5 item chargers of 10g each, i play to have fun and i don't want to lose money playing RvR just to feel that i had a fair duel in solo, i want at least to end my runs avarage cost at 0.

Tue 30 Apr 2019 10:25 AM by Giorgione88

Just put spec buff charges on a separate CD . So people can use a Legion heal during fight or a dd instant to rupt etc..
And maybe you can decrease the recharge cost and increase the duration of those buff timers.

Tue 30 Apr 2019 10:32 AM by jhaerik

pax wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:45 AM
Put every charges in combined forces potion, refund feathers charge item and the game will be more enjoyable for solo and casual play.
I was almost taking off when i discovered that my opponents were using 3\4\5 item chargers of 10g each, i play to have fun and i don't want to lose money playing RvR just to feel that i had a fair duel in solo, i want at least to end my runs avarage cost at 0.

I'll tell you what feels even worse... running from fights you "might" lose just because is going to take you 6 minutes to recharge, 15 minutes to slow hoof it back to a solo friendly area, and cost you another 80g-100g in charges just to get back to where you were with charges running. Also after killing someone generally speaking if you aren't near a friendly keep the best option is to suicide to guards because you no longer have hastener.... and god DAMN does it feel bad slow hoofing it.

No wonder most of the solo action involves people just making braindead charges at enemy PK's hoping to kill a solo guy. Look at emain.. when the task is in hib about the only solo action you see is right outside Alb and Mid PKs.... specifically between Alb's and Mids. Why? Because no one wants to slow hoof it all the way back somewhere else.

For a server that touts "lots of QoL" changes they seems to be limited to PvE. Sure you level fast as heck... but gearing for RvR and farming plat for charges and pots is a full time job. On live I could just load up a SM/Healer duo, go salvage for 2 hours and rvr off that plat for 2 weeks. Here it takes 1/4-1/2 of my play time just to keep up enough cash to keep buffed.

QoL I'd have to see before even consider coming back to play:

Cheap/Easy access to buffs. Be it cheap/longer lasting charges, NPC buffs, or Charges.

Movement speed from a renewable source. Be it Speed tokens, or mounts. (I don't mean live mounts, I mean speed of the realm speed Classic Ruleset mounts.)

As it stands Phoenix is a mix of 1.65, NF RA's, Classic Server buff rules, and custom items/tasks Those 3 rule sets don't play well together and the custom stuff just adds a ton of it's own issues.

My thoughts

New RA's without ALL of the new RAs/RR5's/NF doesn't work well.

Classic ruleset buff rules without bonus stat/hits caps and champ level hits/buffs doesn't work well.

Anyone else remember when instant 30 hit the Pheonix beta and everyone was just in Cale doing DAoC things? It felt great. Due to that horrible task system they added BG's no longer exist. RvR is this strange thing where most people just run around capping undefended keeps for easy RP and a few 8 mans run around and duel in discord pre-arranged fights. It doesn't feel like DAoC at all.

Also we have this weird ass system where everyone levels in 2 days (half of it from suiciding in RvR, and solo)... then have no reason to log in outside of catching daily SI raids until they have their template. After that they start farming for plat to afford to RvR. It's feels terribly backwards.

Tue 30 Apr 2019 4:00 PM by Horus

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 10:32 AM
pax wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:45 AM
Put every charges in combined forces potion, refund feathers charge item and the game will be more enjoyable for solo and casual play.
I was almost taking off when i discovered that my opponents were using 3\4\5 item chargers of 10g each, i play to have fun and i don't want to lose money playing RvR just to feel that i had a fair duel in solo, i want at least to end my runs avarage cost at 0.

I'll tell you what feels even worse... running from fights you "might" lose just because is going to take you 6 minutes to recharge, 15 minutes to slow hoof it back to a solo friendly area, and cost you another 80g-100g in charges just to get back to where you were with charges running. Also after killing someone generally speaking if you aren't near a friendly keep the best option is to suicide to guards because you no longer have hastener.... and god DAMN does it feel bad slow hoofing it.

No wonder most of the solo action involves people just making braindead charges at enemy PK's hoping to kill a solo guy. Look at emain.. when the task is in hib about the only solo action you see is right outside Alb and Mid PKs.... specifically between Alb's and Mids. Why? Because no one wants to slow hoof it all the way back somewhere else.

For a server that touts "lots of QoL" changes they seems to be limited to PvE. Sure you level fast as heck... but gearing for RvR and farming plat for charges and pots is a full time job. On live I could just load up a SM/Healer duo, go salvage for 2 hours and rvr off that plat for 2 weeks. Here it takes 1/4-1/2 of my play time just to keep up enough cash to keep buffed.

QoL I'd have to see before even consider coming back to play:
Cheap/Easy access to buffs. Be it cheap/longer lasting charges, NPC buffs, or Charges.
Movement speed from a renewable source. Be it Speed tokens, or mounts. (I don't mean live mounts, I mean speed of the realm speed Classic Ruleset mounts.)

As it stands Phoenix is a mix of 1.65, NF RA's, Classic Server buff rules, and custom items/tasks Those 3 rule sets don't play well together and the custom stuff just adds a ton of it's own issues.

My thoughts
New RA's without ALL of the new RAs/RR5's/NF doesn't work well.
Classic ruleset buff rules without bonus stat/hits caps and champ level hits/buffs doesn't work well.
1.65 with OP gear doesn't work well. MOST people weren't running around with capped templates in 1.65. Not everyone could realistically farm TG/Drag vests, drag weapons, all the various charge items, and legion/frientier boss stuff and slap it on a template. The result is people is just hitting too damn hard. This is made worse with new RAs.

Anyone else remember when instant 30 hit the Pheonix beta and everyone was just in Cale doing DAoC things? It felt great. Due to that horrible task system they added BG's no longer exist. RvR is this strange thing where most people just run around capping undefended keeps for easy RP and a few 8 mans run around and duel in discord pre-arranged fights. It doesn't feel like DAoC at all.

Also we have this weird ass system where everyone levels in 2 days (half of it from suiciding in RvR, and solo)... then have no reason to log in outside of catching daily SI raids until they have their template. After that they start farming for plat to afford to RvR. It's feels terribly backwards.

I think you are making the argument for removing buff charges (if it was to me potions too but they are not as bad). Everyone on the same playing field. And it would probably encourage MORE peoples to solo.

Wed 1 May 2019 12:20 AM by RaisingSun

Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 4:00 PM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 10:32 AM
pax wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:45 AM
Put every charges in combined forces potion, refund feathers charge item and the game will be more enjoyable for solo and casual play.
I was almost taking off when i discovered that my opponents were using 3\4\5 item chargers of 10g each, i play to have fun and i don't want to lose money playing RvR just to feel that i had a fair duel in solo, i want at least to end my runs avarage cost at 0.

I'll tell you what feels even worse... running from fights you "might" lose just because is going to take you 6 minutes to recharge, 15 minutes to slow hoof it back to a solo friendly area, and cost you another 80g-100g in charges just to get back to where you were with charges running. Also after killing someone generally speaking if you aren't near a friendly keep the best option is to suicide to guards because you no longer have hastener.... and god DAMN does it feel bad slow hoofing it.

No wonder most of the solo action involves people just making braindead charges at enemy PK's hoping to kill a solo guy. Look at emain.. when the task is in hib about the only solo action you see is right outside Alb and Mid PKs.... specifically between Alb's and Mids. Why? Because no one wants to slow hoof it all the way back somewhere else.

For a server that touts "lots of QoL" changes they seems to be limited to PvE. Sure you level fast as heck... but gearing for RvR and farming plat for charges and pots is a full time job. On live I could just load up a SM/Healer duo, go salvage for 2 hours and rvr off that plat for 2 weeks. Here it takes 1/4-1/2 of my play time just to keep up enough cash to keep buffed.

QoL I'd have to see before even consider coming back to play:
Cheap/Easy access to buffs. Be it cheap/longer lasting charges, NPC buffs, or Charges.
Movement speed from a renewable source. Be it Speed tokens, or mounts. (I don't mean live mounts, I mean speed of the realm speed Classic Ruleset mounts.)

As it stands Phoenix is a mix of 1.65, NF RA's, Classic Server buff rules, and custom items/tasks Those 3 rule sets don't play well together and the custom stuff just adds a ton of it's own issues.

My thoughts
New RA's without ALL of the new RAs/RR5's/NF doesn't work well.
Classic ruleset buff rules without bonus stat/hits caps and champ level hits/buffs doesn't work well.
1.65 with OP gear doesn't work well. MOST people weren't running around with capped templates in 1.65. Not everyone could realistically farm TG/Drag vests, drag weapons, all the various charge items, and legion/frientier boss stuff and slap it on a template. The result is people is just hitting too damn hard. This is made worse with new RAs.

Anyone else remember when instant 30 hit the Pheonix beta and everyone was just in Cale doing DAoC things? It felt great. Due to that horrible task system they added BG's no longer exist. RvR is this strange thing where most people just run around capping undefended keeps for easy RP and a few 8 mans run around and duel in discord pre-arranged fights. It doesn't feel like DAoC at all.

Also we have this weird ass system where everyone levels in 2 days (half of it from suiciding in RvR, and solo)... then have no reason to log in outside of catching daily SI raids until they have their template. After that they start farming for plat to afford to RvR. It's feels terribly backwards.

I think you are making the argument for removing buff charges (if it was to me potions too but they are not as bad). Everyone on the same playing field. And it would probably encourage MORE peoples to solo.

The thing is.....More people in the frontier, more fun. Keep making it hard for solos and the server WILL DIE. IE: Uthtard (There is a food chain with daoc)

Charges are a good backup if you die and get rezzed in OF. If no 2nd acct's or Buff Bots allowed. Or allow it and get rid of that board of shame nonsense. I'm tired like everyone else with Phoenix big stick in their hand, with their fascist over barring rules.
NPC Buff Merchants like live, make most sense to help people level and RVR. Allow it and the board of shame goes quite. Truth ! Think of the time you will save.

The rules are so strict/costly, people will quit with this current system.
The people that don't want it, so solo without it...right

People that full group wont even care because they will wipe the small mans/duo's/solo's anyway's.

Phoenix have an open mind and just try on a temporary basis and see is the community likes it. Server will stay happy and healthy. People need cheaper and longer timer'd buffs. Truth

Wed 1 May 2019 1:21 AM by dbeattie71

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 10:32 AM
pax wrote: ↑
Tue 30 Apr 2019 8:45 AM
Put every charges in combined forces potion, refund feathers charge item and the game will be more enjoyable for solo and casual play.
I was almost taking off when i discovered that my opponents were using 3\4\5 item chargers of 10g each, i play to have fun and i don't want to lose money playing RvR just to feel that i had a fair duel in solo, i want at least to end my runs avarage cost at 0.

I'll tell you what feels even worse... running from fights you "might" lose just because is going to take you 6 minutes to recharge, 15 minutes to slow hoof it back to a solo friendly area, and cost you another 80g-100g in charges just to get back to where you were with charges running. Also after killing someone generally speaking if you aren't near a friendly keep the best option is to suicide to guards because you no longer have hastener.... and god DAMN does it feel bad slow hoofing it.

No wonder most of the solo action involves people just making braindead charges at enemy PK's hoping to kill a solo guy. Look at emain.. when the task is in hib about the only solo action you see is right outside Alb and Mid PKs.... specifically between Alb's and Mids. Why? Because no one wants to slow hoof it all the way back somewhere else.

For a server that touts "lots of QoL" changes they seems to be limited to PvE. Sure you level fast as heck... but gearing for RvR and farming plat for charges and pots is a full time job. On live I could just load up a SM/Healer duo, go salvage for 2 hours and rvr off that plat for 2 weeks. Here it takes 1/4-1/2 of my play time just to keep up enough cash to keep buffed.

QoL I'd have to see before even consider coming back to play:
Cheap/Easy access to buffs. Be it cheap/longer lasting charges, NPC buffs, or Charges.
Movement speed from a renewable source. Be it Speed tokens, or mounts. (I don't mean live mounts, I mean speed of the realm speed Classic Ruleset mounts.)

As it stands Phoenix is a mix of 1.65, NF RA's, Classic Server buff rules, and custom items/tasks Those 3 rule sets don't play well together and the custom stuff just adds a ton of it's own issues.

My thoughts
New RA's without ALL of the new RAs/RR5's/NF doesn't work well.
Classic ruleset buff rules without bonus stat/hits caps and champ level hits/buffs doesn't work well.
1.65 with OP gear doesn't work well. MOST people weren't running around with capped templates in 1.65. Not everyone could realistically farm TG/Drag vests, drag weapons, all the various charge items, and legion/frientier boss stuff and slap it on a template. The result is people is just hitting too damn hard. This is made worse with new RAs.

Anyone else remember when instant 30 hit the Pheonix beta and everyone was just in Cale doing DAoC things? It felt great. Due to that horrible task system they added BG's no longer exist. RvR is this strange thing where most people just run around capping undefended keeps for easy RP and a few 8 mans run around and duel in discord pre-arranged fights. It doesn't feel like DAoC at all.

Also we have this weird ass system where everyone levels in 2 days (half of it from suiciding in RvR, and solo)... then have no reason to log in outside of catching daily SI raids until they have their template. After that they start farming for plat to afford to RvR. It's feels terribly backwards.

Right, I made a new toon to mess around on and running around to kill mobs was brutal, walking around, I should say.

Wed 1 May 2019 2:04 AM by dbeattie71

Add "Buy your own Hastener" like we have for vaults and merchants.

Wed 1 May 2019 1:01 PM by Yokahu

I want to quote someone from another thread that made a good point about charges/pots... (the thread was about buffbots btw)

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 1 May 2019 11:28 AM
It was an unfair advantage for the haves compared to the have nots that didn't want to pay for a second account.

That being said, people that can afford charge items/buff potions are no different than those that used to have buff bots. The problem still exists, it's just got a different face.

Either give everyone permanent conc buffs, or get rid of pots/charges if you don't like the idea of buff bots

Cheers

Wed 1 May 2019 1:23 PM by PingGuy

I keep thinking about this issue, but I can't figure out a solution. There's just too many problems with the way it's setup now, and too many potential problems that could be caused by any intended solution. I've actually never bought a potion or a charge item here on Phoenix. I did start a Warden partially because of the self-buffs, to avoid needing buff potions. Only to find out I still need End potions, and charge items, and then I have to farm for upkeep. Being realistic, I'm not going to do any of that, and I'm going to be at a disadvantage because of it.

I think the solution lies in fixing this in two phases. First, they need to decide how they want buffs to work here, ignoring all issues of cost, injury to alchemists and/or self-buffers.

Potions versus Buff NPC's
Strength of Base/Spec Buffs and Charges
Timers/Durations
Strength of Solo versus Smallman versus Group

Then, once they have that balanced out the way they want, they can fix the collateral damage. Are the upkeep costs reasonable/effective? Do alchemists have anything to do now? Is there a reason to spec in buff lines for buffing classes and self-buffers? Should we let Hibs port to the South end of Breifine out of pure mercy? (Wait, what does that have to do with buffs?

) Ok, I couldn't help myself, although that is kind of tangential to the issue of speed buffs, but I digress.

I really don't have a position on what should be done to buff-potions/charges, these are just my thoughts on how to approach thinking about it.

Wed 1 May 2019 1:41 PM by Yokahu

17 pages now... can we please have an update about this topic from the devs?
Any type of communication is good and appreciated; unlike these AAA companies that keep quiet for months on heartbreaking issues.

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 2:10 PM
After 12 pages of passionate discussions, have the devs reached a conclusion or are leaning towards one option?

Please share with us the status of the charge changes internal discussions

Wed 1 May 2019 4:18 PM by Cruella

just get rid of the mess. so hybrids with selfbuffs now find purpuse in their speclines. when you want to fight with buffs...group a buffer for gods sake..
end this crap already

Thu 2 May 2019 12:26 AM by RaisingSun

In any case, due to the existence of charges solo people are / feel forced to charge as much as possible driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable (the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone).

I beg to differ. Are you completely lost your mind? Small net loss? Do any on your fools ever try to solo?
I run 3 charges, invig pot, mending pot, and weak ass combined forces for 600 gold for 100 charges. 3 charges recharge is 300 gold and and over 1 plat for rest. My plat goes down fast when I RVR. Which I stopped.

I smart player asked about raising kill prices and The Main GM Uthred said" Everything fine, we are actually thinking of lowering" Right there, I figured this server was being run by complete incompetent morons. Haven't played since. Especially the unbalance with Nightshades and Shadow blade weapon/armor imbalance.

I seriously don't think anything will go in the right direction. You guys give yourself too much credit.

Buffs and solo's are a big deal and you guys openly discriminate and persecute them.The server WILL DIE.

Thu 2 May 2019 1:04 AM by

gruenesschaf

RaisingSun wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 12:26 AM
In any case, due to the existence of charges solo people are / feel forced to charge as much as possible driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable (the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone).

I beg to differ. Are you completely lost your mind? Small net loss? Do any on your fools ever try to solo?
I run 3 charges, invig pot, mending pot, and weak ass combined forces for 600 gold for 100 charges. 3 charges recharge is 300 gold and and over 1 plat for rest. My plat goes down fast when I RVR. Which I stopped.

I smart player asked about raising kill prices and The Main GM Uthred said" Everything fine, we are actually thinking of lowering" Right there, I figured this server was being run by complete incompetent morons. Haven't played since. Especially the unbalance with Nightshades and Shadow blade weapon/armor imbalance.

I seriously don't think anything will go in the right direction. You guys give yourself too much credit.

Buffs and solo's are a big deal and you guys openly discriminate and persecute them.The server WILL DIE.

You nicely misunderstood the quoted text.

The text said "driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable."
This means the cost are too high currently.

The next section then goes on to define what reasonable means: "the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone."
This means a small net loss is something that would be reasonable.

Thu 2 May 2019 6:27 AM by k3mra

k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 12:47 AM
Ok i have an idea...

What about a completly new "barrel of combined forces"

Alchemist can create a Barrel with 7 charge slots.
These slots can be filled with buffs
2 epic
3 normal
2 lesser

For excample
The epic slots can be filled with level 50 (75 value) points Buffs
The normal with level 34 (54)
The lesser with level 25 (39)

Lesser and normal can be crafted by alchemist and the epic ones drop in the epic dungeon zones or can be purchased with feathers.

Now everyone can build his own barrel.

If you are a caster you will maybe choose
Epic: 1. Dex/quick + 2. dex
Normal: 1. Acu + 2. Str/con 3. Endu reg 3
Lesser: 1. Pom + 2. Con

Or if you are a blade ranger with pf
Epic: 1. Str/con + 2. Con
Normal: 1. Dex + 2. Haste +3. Endu reg 3
Lesser: 1. Dmg shield + 2. Af buff
.............

You can think for yourself what kind of barrel would fit your playstyle and needings the most.

In Addition to dont have just enough barrels to run all epic Buffs. You get a debuff after drinking the barrel called "all filled up". That debuff prevent you from drinking another "barrel of combined forces" and has the same duration as the Buffs itself. 20 min to be exakt to match your normal rebuff timer.

Ofcause the debuff is gone if you die. So that you can buff yourself again.
................

I would say it would be best to add a npc that you can give your fether items and get feathers back in return.

...............
You should be able to purchase the different epic buff charges at the npcs for a relativly low price (maybe 5k?) you would need the encounter for.

For example Alb
Sidi. Str/con + acu + dmg add
Legion. Dex/quick + str + con
SI. Dex + haste + af
Frontier. Everything else

Thx for reading and i hope you like the idea .. and if you like it that its doable ^^

k3mra wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Apr 2019 8:24 AM
I have another idea thats related to my last post but a bit easyer to implement...

You can make that 1 buff charge can be enhanced in every juwelery.
Neck and cloak = epic
Gem and belt = normal
Rings = minor
Bracers = supportive (heal, hot or ablative)

Neck, cloak, gem, belt and rings give you a debuff with the same duration as the buffs (20min would be best) that you cant purge but is removed by death. That way you cant just swap items to run all buffs.

Bracers are on a charge timer so that you have to choose what you want to use while fighting.

I still think that are good ideas and want to know you opinions to that.

I would also add that alchemist can craft charge items.. for example npc recharger takes 10g per charge so 100g for the full recharge of an item and alchemist need 3g so that they can be sold for 5g per charge and 50g for the full recharge...

Thu 2 May 2019 1:55 PM by jhaerik

Please dear lord no more crafting BS either.
So , SO, SOOOOO sick of farming PvE crap to RvR.
We don't need more reasons to farm crap.

Jesus.

Look this doesn't have to be complicated. Classic ruleset figured this shit out easy enough and was great.

Buff NPCs.
Hastener Tokens you buy with bounty points.

Personally I'd suggest adding some mounts as well. Even if you limit them to PvE outdoor zones only. I mean old mounts, the hastener speed ones. No one is going to group a skald/mini just to get to point A or B slightly faster so they can take xp for 4 hours. So that argument doesn't fly anyway. There isn't a benefit to not having them.

Personally I don't have an issue with dual-logging or afk farming either. Those have anyway been part of the game, and a part we sorely lack.

Thu 2 May 2019 5:23 PM by Mauriac

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 1:04 AM
RaisingSun wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 12:26 AM
In any case, due to the existence of charges solo people are / feel forced to charge as much as possible driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable (the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone).

I beg to differ. Are you completely lost your mind? Small net loss? Do any on your fools ever try to solo?
I run 3 charges, invig pot, mending pot, and weak ass combined forces for 600 gold for 100 charges. 3 charges recharge is 300 gold and and over 1 plat for rest. My plat goes down fast when I RVR. Which I stopped.

I smart player asked about raising kill prices and The Main GM Uthred said" Everything fine, we are actually thinking of lowering" Right there, I figured this server was being run by complete incompetent morons. Haven't played since. Especially the unbalance with Nightshades and Shadow blade weapon/armor imbalance.

I seriously don't think anything will go in the right direction. You guys give yourself too much credit.

Buffs and solo's are a big deal and you guys openly discriminate and persecute them.The server WILL DIE.

You nicely misunderstood the quoted text.

The text said "driving the cost for each run a lot higher than what would be reasonable."
This means the cost are too high currently.

The next section then goes on to define what reasonable means: "the upper bound for being reasonable would be only a rather small net loss with gold from rvr alone."
This means a small net loss is something that would be reasonable.

Totally agree with your assessment on the solo player charging situation. Not a fan of the proposed changes though broheim

Thu 2 May 2019 11:34 PM by Sepphiroth75

why are we looking at changing the charge items? Please do not change

Fri 3 May 2019 1:36 AM by semadin

Sepphiroth75 wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 11:34 PM
why are we looking at changing the charge items? Please do not change

Because the buffs available via charge create a terrible ongoing game play situation

Fri 3 May 2019 8:55 AM by Erok

Removing them is a terrible idea, it would make running solo pretty much impossible. I like the idea of the charges not going away when you die, and I disagree that making them last longer would be a bad idea. Maybe even just make an item that will cover all the spec buffs... Having to wait 6 minutes before being able to compete in a 1v1 is kind of annoying.

Fri 3 May 2019 12:48 PM by Lillebror

Instead of this +10 magic and melee resist charge on our d/q and s/c items.

Cant you instead atleast on one of the types cure Disease?
other instead give (options):
cure NS
End Heal
Power heal (mcl2)
Heal over Time
+5% resists that last 10m
Cure Poisons

Fri 3 May 2019 1:02 PM by Sepplord

+5% resist that last 10minutes would put us back where we are now though...the other ideas sound neat but i am unsure if they would work well enough to be an efficient goldsink.

I have thought about the resist-charges and i think i understand now why (not that i believe it is a good thing though), they still need charges as gold-sinks. The system before had two main problems:

a) it taxed soloers the most, while groupchars were getting away with 1charge mostly.
b) it created an unfun gameplay loop of waiting to have charges up or risk losing just because you didn't buff up properly. Aka either take the RNG-disadvantage or only fight 2-4minutes every 10minutes.

The latter is solved by the potion change, but simply removing charges would increase inflation heavily. There needs to be charges that are used often, to drain gold from the economy.
So conceptually it makes sense and is a good idea. I am just afraid how the fights are actually impacted

Sat 4 May 2019 5:40 PM by jhaerik

Still no response?

Sat 4 May 2019 5:53 PM by semadin

Erok wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 8:55 AM
Removing them is a terrible idea, it would make running solo pretty much impossible. I like the idea of the charges not going away when you die, and I disagree that making them last longer would be a bad idea. Maybe even just make an item that will cover all the spec buffs... Having to wait 6 minutes before being able to compete in a 1v1 is kind of annoying.

this is very false...even in the game right now where there are soloers running around with charge buffs, you can solo fine w/o them.

The real problem soloing is running into people fully buffed via charges - it's basically buff botting but with extra steps.

Sat 4 May 2019 6:40 PM by soiehib1337

Erok wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 8:55 AM
Removing them is a terrible idea, it would make running solo pretty much impossible. I like the idea of the charges not going away when you die, and I disagree that making them last longer would be a bad idea. Maybe even just make an item that will cover all the spec buffs... Having to wait 6 minutes before being able to compete in a 1v1 is kind of annoying.

Why ? Why would it make running solo pretty much impossible without buffs ? What prevents you from fighting unbuffed other people that are unbuffed or self buffed ?with points they spent in self buffing instead of weapon or else ?

This potion stuff makes no sense. Get rid of pots, especially regen pots. You're supposed to manage your stamina, it's a crucial resource. Making it irrelevant unbalances the game.

Sun 5 May 2019 12:01 PM by paragate

I also do not get this conclusion that the removal of potions and charges would somehow make all solo play totally impossible. If you want to solo buffed, why not run a nature druid, aug healer, smite cleric, or maybe a battle bard? Because they lack stealth? Why not simply add stealth charges to make all classes more solo-able? Because that would break the balance? No it wouldn't, it would just make it more even, like when giving everybody access to permasprint and a full set of self-buffs.

According to the Herald, most soloers are either stealthers or skalds. Why is it that these particular archetypes, the sneaky stealthers and the speedy loud mouth, should be the designated soloers? People here keep saying that not everybody likes to group, and that they find soloing more fun, okay but what about visible non-skald soloers?

Sun 5 May 2019 3:49 PM by soiehib1337

paragate wrote: ↑
Sun 5 May 2019 12:01 PM
I also do not get this conclusion that the removal of potions and charges would somehow make all solo play totally impossible. If you want to solo buffed, why not run a nature druid, aug healer, smite cleric, or maybe a battle bard? Because they lack stealth? Why not simply add stealth charges to make all classes more solo-able? Because that would break the balance? No it wouldn't, it would just make it more even, like when giving everybody access to permasprint and a full set of self-buffs.

According to the Herald, most soloers are either stealthers or skalds. Why is it that these particular archetypes, the sneaky stealthers and the speedy loud mouth, should be the designated soloers? People here keep saying that not everybody likes to group, and that they find soloing more fun, okay but what about visible non-skald soloers?

Skald was not supposed to have SoS and Determination. Nor permasprint, mana regen, perma buffs etc... Take a "classic" skald against any "classic" soloer and he'll rip more often than not at even rank.
So this leaves you with stealthers only. Hence you don't need buffs because nobody has buffs, except those spending points to actually get them...

It's not strange how everything makes more sense if you just get back to the roots.

Btw you say people find soloing more fun. It's more fun because it's way easier. The soloers in this meta have a way too high reward for a way too low risk. People love insta easy gratification. That's where you find the stealthers and skalds. Obviously, winning is more fun than losing. Winning easily with no risk is even more fun since you win more ! And look at the boards. The ones whining and complaining the most are STILL stealthers. Nerf this, nerf that, whine whine whine. We want to win even against friars and necros because we are entitled ! Easy insta win with no risk or involvement, that's what they want and what sums up 90% of the so-called "suggestions".

Sun 5 May 2019 4:00 PM by Svekt

Classic server - Stop introducing anything NEW. QOL is nice but when you add things that just didn't exist on this patch like melee and magic charges then youre just writing us a game based on DAOC.

This patch was designed to be a challenge. You give something up usually to get something else. You work hard to practice your class and your role and get better daily.

Every time you make a change, and rapidly as you always do the game adjusts. This is what pisses people off. Every time we think we get something set in stone it changes again.

I juggle multiple charges when solo, and when I run in a group we buff the primary damage stats and charge the rest. If you don't have a charge item that typically moves for less than a plat I don't know what to tell you. AF charges are on the epic chests and people are always farming/selling charge items on housing or in trade.

Solo - combined forces + combined regen + spec AF and you can roll right out of the gate, you choosing to wait to have 3 charges up before you leave is on you. By the time you make it to the Milegate you can usually have a second charge up if you need it. If you don't want to get hit but still be mobile take an alternative route. There are so many solutions to game play here without having to change or add new things.

You as players came to this patch and this server with a full list of all changes made, yet you come and stay and complain. If you don't like it, live still runs a server and you can go play with all their toys.

The amount of you that believe you can compete with some of these players if you just get your timers or buffs adjusted is unbelievable. Learn to play your toon while you level and practice and examine your losses. If you can't commit to self improvement and have to plead for changes then I feel terrible for your future as a human.

Sun 5 May 2019 8:28 PM by Lillebror

Keep str/con and dex/qui Charges as they are even Combine forces cover it, and give healer, druid and cleric shears

Mon 6 May 2019 2:11 PM by Sepphiroth75

semadin wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 1:36 AM
Sepphiroth75 wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 11:34 PM
why are we looking at changing the charge items? Please do not change

Because the buffs available via charge create a terrible ongoing game play situation

i think its good we have the dex/quick and str/con items. my solution is to make them last 20 minutes instead of putting some OP 20% melee resists buff that is only up for 30 seconds

Mon 6 May 2019 5:08 PM by semadin

Sepphiroth75 wrote: ↑
Mon 6 May 2019 2:11 PM
semadin wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 1:36 AM
Sepphiroth75 wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 11:34 PM
why are we looking at changing the charge items? Please do not change

Because the buffs available via charge create a terrible ongoing game play situation

i think its good we have the dex/quick and str/con items. my solution is to make them last 20 minutes instead of putting some OP 20% melee resists buff that is only up for 30 seconds

why is it good?

Tue 7 May 2019 5:49 AM by Ceen

Why you always talk about d/q and s/c, the int charge is nerfed as well and this will effect small man a lot

ops:
Damn melee button smasher are the majority.

Tue 7 May 2019 4:14 PM by SlowMo

Did you consider npc buffbots with Same buffs for all. And therefore reduce the max group members to 7 or 6 just to compensate that buff classes are no longer required that much.
Buff values should be lower then values of Self buff/ buff specced. To still have some value if one goes this Route.

Dont know if it Makes Sense just came into my mind ;-) maybe See it as brainstorm and Not a final suggestion