Archers - a comparison of the 3 realms' ranged melees

Howdy folks,

I'd like to gather some opinions/your point of view on the comparison of the three archer types we got - your experience is needed!
How would you define the purpose/advantages/drawbacks of Scout, Ranger and Hunter in direct comparison to each other on Phoenix - not in direct engagement to each other, just for their designed purpose.

thanks for your contribution!

M.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:41 PM by Horus

Well lots of these threads but I'll take an intial stab at it...

Given the state of archery, let just assume for the most part they are equal with the bow at a given spec level with minimal differences..

So what other tools do they have?

Scout: Shield spec ability (slam, engage, increased defense etc)
Hunter: self buffs, pet, pet buffs, 2H melee option
Ranger: self buffs and dual wield

How do these tools apply in practice and vs. the encounters the class is mostly likely to engage in?

Self buffs are handy but with the proliferation of potions and charged items their value is weakened a bit. One can say this affects the ranger the most as Hunter buffs are in the beastcraft line so they still have the benefit of the better pet.

Scout shield spec is awfully handy..not just because of slam..engage allows you to neutralize other archers if they attack you. Slam could be all you need to escape an undesired melee range encounter or win the fight.

The hunter pet is pretty mighty...it is a substantial damage add and way to win the interrupt game. Give that archery is general considered somewhat weak here, with their spec lines for spear and sword, buff, and pet..hunters have the best melee (IMO).

This leaves the ranger with dual wielded weapons as their unique thing. On paper this should give some nice melee output but you def have to gimp other spec lines to get to that point and even then, the weapon skill and styles, lack of "toys", put you at a disadvantage in many melee encounters.

That is a quick comparison based on my experience and opinion..take it for what it is worth...

Wed 13 Feb 2019 3:49 PM by Zansobar

The damage add and dual wield are what makes Rangers unique.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:07 PM by Ganil

Hunter pet is best vs caster. Their 2h weapon is meh but it deals significant damages against target with no/low evasion.
Scout shield is best 1v1 vs low rank who don't have purge yet (my stun is purged 9 times out of 10 ). It's also good vs 2h weapons. Really bad vs DW and assassins (block penalties and about 35% of shield slams are evaded). Minstrel are on your side.
Ranger DW is best at penetrating defenses (so they're the best against high defenses class like shield users and other assassins). They have the highest damage output overall and the strongest archer in the stealthwar imo. Also they don't have to face nightshades.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:14 PM by Cadebrennus

FYI Hunter and Ranger melee output was tested by me and others during beta and 2h Hunter (without pet) = Ranger dual wielding damage. With pet it increases even more.

Scout 1h = Ranger 1h = Hunter 1h at equal spec.

Scout Bow Range = 2200
Ranger Bow Range = 2100
Hunter Bow Range = 2000

Ranger and Scout get 5.4ish bows for harder Critshots, Hunters do not.

For regular shots and hitting Rapid Fire speed cap, bow speeds are more equal (4.0 - 4.7ish, don't remember exact Hunter bow speeds)

Keep in mind that regardless of bow speed, each bow does the same damage over time, hence the "DPS" rating of 16.2 or 16.5. A 4.0 speed bow does the same damage over time as a 5.4 speed bow does, given enough time to shoot. A 5.4 speed bow will do more damage per shot but will not fire off as many shots as a 4.0 speed bow does in a shorter timeframe.

At 50+15 CD (unlikely) Ranger is swinging both weapons at 69% of the time. That means that 31% of the time they are swinging 1h without any defensive bonus and are swinging without any additional defensive penetration vs shield or evade. Also keep in mind that dual wielding penetration is only 25%, not 50%.

More likely CD specs for Rangers:
29+15 CD = 54% chance to dual wield, 46% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

18+15 CD = 47% chance to swing both weapons, 53% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

Buffs from Pathfinding and Beastcraft are completely overshadowed by pots and charges. The DA in PF is by itself not worth spending the spec points on. The dog in BC is however, IMO, as it is a valuable interrupt tool and does as much damage as an unstyled hit per hit. The attack speed is slow however, and the run speed sucks when sending it to a target.

Keep these figures in mind before engaging in hyperbole and flame wars. Happy comparing.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:44 PM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:14 PM
FYI Hunter and Ranger melee output was tested by me and others during beta and 2h Hunter (without pet) = Ranger dual wielding damage. With pet it increases even more.

Scout 1h = Ranger 1h = Hunter 1h at equal spec.

Scout Bow Range = 2200
Ranger Bow Range = 2100
Hunter Bow Range = 2000

Ranger and Scout get 5.4ish bows for harder Critshots, Hunters do not.

For regular shots and hitting Rapid Fire speed cap, bow speeds are more equal (4.0 - 4.7ish, don't remember exact Hunter bow speeds)

At 50+15 CD (unlikely) Ranger is swinging both weapons at 69% of the time. That means that 31% of the time they are swinging 1h without any defensive bonus and are swinging without any additional defensive penetration vs shield or evade. Also keep in mind that dual wielding penetration is only 25%, not 50%.

More likely CD specs for Rangers:
29+15 CD = 54% chance to dual wield, 46% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

18+15 CD = 47% chance to swing both weapons, 53% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

Buffs from Pathfinding and Beastcraft are completely overshadowed by pots and charges. The DA in PF is by itself not worth spending the spec points on. The dog in BC is however, IMO, as it is a valuable interrupt tool and does as much damage as an unstyled hit per hit. The attack speed is slow however, and the run speed sucks when sending it to a target.

Keep these figures in mind before engaging in hyperbole and flame wars. Happy comparing.

What makes you think you do not get defensive penetration vs shield or evade when your offhand doesn't swing? Simply equipping an offhand does this (or should do) - and this alone swings the balance (heavily) in the favor of rangers. I'm not saying this is unfair, but it is a big flaw in your argument as it means rangers are much more suited against high evade/block (assassins, scouts, tanks) than hunters.

The damage of the pet "doing an unstyled hit per hit" doesn't mean a lot without context (definitely not as much as an unstyled spear hit, and it swings slower than that) but it doesn't proc anything offensive yet procs everything defensively.

Just saying

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:53 PM by Cadebrennus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:44 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:14 PM
FYI Hunter and Ranger melee output was tested by me and others during beta and 2h Hunter (without pet) = Ranger dual wielding damage. With pet it increases even more.

Scout 1h = Ranger 1h = Hunter 1h at equal spec.

Scout Bow Range = 2200
Ranger Bow Range = 2100
Hunter Bow Range = 2000

Ranger and Scout get 5.4ish bows for harder Critshots, Hunters do not.

For regular shots and hitting Rapid Fire speed cap, bow speeds are more equal (4.0 - 4.7ish, don't remember exact Hunter bow speeds)

At 50+15 CD (unlikely) Ranger is swinging both weapons at 69% of the time. That means that 31% of the time they are swinging 1h without any defensive bonus and are swinging without any additional defensive penetration vs shield or evade. Also keep in mind that dual wielding penetration is only 25%, not 50%.

More likely CD specs for Rangers:
29+15 CD = 54% chance to dual wield, 46% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

18+15 CD = 47% chance to swing both weapons, 53% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

Buffs from Pathfinding and Beastcraft are completely overshadowed by pots and charges. The DA in PF is by itself not worth spending the spec points on. The dog in BC is however, IMO, as it is a valuable interrupt tool and does as much damage as an unstyled hit per hit. The attack speed is slow however, and the run speed sucks when sending it to a target.

Keep these figures in mind before engaging in hyperbole and flame wars. Happy comparing.

What makes you think you do not get defensive penetration vs shield or evade when your offhand doesn't swing? Simply equipping an offhand does this (or should do) - and this alone swings the balance (heavily) in the favor of rangers. I'm not saying this is unfair, but it is a big flaw in your argument as it means rangers are much more suited against high evade/block (assassins, scouts, tanks) than hunters.

The damage of the pet "doing an unstyled hit per hit" doesn't mean a lot without context (definitely not as much as an unstyled spear hit, and it swings slower than that) but it doesn't proc anything offensive yet procs everything defensively.

Just saying

I haven't seen any evidence that says defense penetration happens on a single hit. The wording is "dual wielding" so it could happen either way. I haven't done the testing as the random nature of dual wielding would make confirming or denying this a nightmare. The most logical conclusion for me is that 1 weapon attacking = 1 weapon defense penetration or lack thereof. I could be wrong in this matter but it stands to have extensive testing to prove me wrong. The way Mythic originally coded everything it's a strong possibility that defensive penetration only works when both weapons swing. Perhaps Gruen could confirm or deny.

Regarding the dog I've done testing and the dog does as much damage as an unstyled 50 spec 1handed hit. This was tested during beta. Keep in mind that most Archer players aren't speccing 50 weapon so that makes the dog even more potent.

25% is a lot less potent than the 50% defense penetration that dual wielders started with.

2handed weapons have a defense penetration bonus against parry but somehow Hunter players always forget to mention that.

Careful with the claims and be cautious of hyperbole. No one said dogs were = to an unstyled spear hit, nor are dual wielders these amazing defensive barrier melters.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:56 PM by Ganil

Back in the day simply equipping the weapon would grant the penetration bonus.
It's nerfed here to 25% instead of 50%.

You're right about the parry, but it's mostly forgotten because it's not the most common defense type imo.

I think everything has already been said on this thread now.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:44 PM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:53 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:44 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:14 PM
FYI Hunter and Ranger melee output was tested by me and others during beta and 2h Hunter (without pet) = Ranger dual wielding damage. With pet it increases even more.

Scout 1h = Ranger 1h = Hunter 1h at equal spec.

Scout Bow Range = 2200
Ranger Bow Range = 2100
Hunter Bow Range = 2000

Ranger and Scout get 5.4ish bows for harder Critshots, Hunters do not.

For regular shots and hitting Rapid Fire speed cap, bow speeds are more equal (4.0 - 4.7ish, don't remember exact Hunter bow speeds)

At 50+15 CD (unlikely) Ranger is swinging both weapons at 69% of the time. That means that 31% of the time they are swinging 1h without any defensive bonus and are swinging without any additional defensive penetration vs shield or evade. Also keep in mind that dual wielding penetration is only 25%, not 50%.

More likely CD specs for Rangers:
29+15 CD = 54% chance to dual wield, 46% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

18+15 CD = 47% chance to swing both weapons, 53% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

Buffs from Pathfinding and Beastcraft are completely overshadowed by pots and charges. The DA in PF is by itself not worth spending the spec points on. The dog in BC is however, IMO, as it is a valuable interrupt tool and does as much damage as an unstyled hit per hit. The attack speed is slow however, and the run speed sucks when sending it to a target.

Keep these figures in mind before engaging in hyperbole and flame wars. Happy comparing.

What makes you think you do not get defensive penetration vs shield or evade when your offhand doesn't swing? Simply equipping an offhand does this (or should do) - and this alone swings the balance (heavily) in the favor of rangers. I'm not saying this is unfair, but it is a big flaw in your argument as it means rangers are much more suited against high evade/block (assassins, scouts, tanks) than hunters.

The damage of the pet "doing an unstyled hit per hit" doesn't mean a lot without context (definitely not as much as an unstyled spear hit, and it swings slower than that) but it doesn't proc anything offensive yet procs everything defensively.

Just saying

I haven't seen any evidence that says defense penetration happens on a single hit. The wording is "dual wielding" so it could happen either way. I haven't done the testing as the random nature of dual wielding would make confirming or denying this a nightmare. The most logical conclusion for me is that 1 weapon attacking = 1 weapon defense penetration or lack thereof. I could be wrong in this matter but it stands to have extensive testing to prove me wrong. The way Mythic originally coded everything it's a strong possibility that defensive penetration only works when both weapons swing. Perhaps Gruen could confirm or deny.

Regarding the dog I've done testing and the dog does as much damage as an unstyled 50 spec 1handed hit. This was tested during beta. Keep in mind that most Archer players aren't speccing 50 weapon so that makes the dog even more potent.

25% is a lot less potent than the 50% defense penetration that dual wielders started with.

2handed weapons have a defense penetration bonus against parry but somehow Hunter players always forget to mention that.

Careful with the claims and be cautious of hyperbole. No one said dogs were = to an unstyled spear hit, nor are dual wielders these amazing defensive barrier melters.

It is piss-easy to test: You duel a NS as ranger and equip 1H and no offhand. You will see Evade % when you get evaded. Then you equip an offhand and see results on evade when your offhand doesn't swing. I'm almost 100% sure you will see defense penetration without actually swinging offhand, this is what makes CD/DW so much stronger in stealth.

No one is argueing 25% is less than 50% but 0% (as hunters get) is even less..

As for dog testing: What 1H spec and what speed? You also forget that a blue-con level 40 dog has a much higher chance-to-miss than an offhand from a level 50. Isolating an individual dog hit, which happens at a much lower rate is a bad comparison, especially when you do not mention 1H spec and weapon swing-speed.

And yes, dog has advantages and disadvantages to an offhand, but you're the one claiming they're equal - which requires you to be specific in those things.

Parry-penetration bonus isn't as relevant as evade-penetration because most targets you engage in melee do not have parry and even if they do they probably have some evade too. I'm not even sure parry-penetration does exist, but it doesn't matter against most common targets.

On a related note: Have you played a hunter extensively?

Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:06 PM by Cadebrennus

Ganil wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:56 PM
Back in the day simply equipping the weapon would grant the penetration bonus.
It's nerfed here to 25% instead of 50%.

You're right about the parry, but it's mostly forgotten because it's not the most common defense type imo.

I think everything has already been said on this thread now.

I think a discussion regarding theorycraft on different specs, playstyles, and tactics would be interesting considering the differences and similarities between the Archer classes, taking into account the known factors outlined in my post and the posts prior to mine. Personally I hate pigeonholing classes and specs due to narrow opinion. For example, I and my group did really well on live with a Visi Spec Ranger in a regular Visi 8man. In the latter part of the first half of 2016 we actually saw a shift in Alb and Mid where they included Scouts and Hunters to counter our group, which I thought was pretty good to see. Melee Rangers were a thing in classic/SI (because of PD etc.) Due to "meh" bow damage and PF being all but useless I will be trying a Split Spec melee Ranger with bow primarily for interrupting. It may suck or it could be great. I have no idea and that's a good thing for the game.

Let's see some more discussion for all Archers based on the limitations we have on Phoenix.

I'm just going to ignore jelzinga_EU until he provides data rather than opinion.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:32 PM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
Ganil wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:56 PM
Back in the day simply equipping the weapon would grant the penetration bonus.
It's nerfed here to 25% instead of 50%.

You're right about the parry, but it's mostly forgotten because it's not the most common defense type imo.

I think everything has already been said on this thread now.

I think a discussion regarding theorycraft on different specs, playstyles, and tactics would be interesting considering the differences and similarities between the Archer classes, taking into account the known factors outlined in my post and the posts prior to mine. Personally I hate pigeonholing classes and specs due to narrow opinion. For example, I and my group did really well on live with a Visi Spec Ranger in a regular Visi 8man. In the latter part of the first half of 2016 we actually saw a shift in Alb and Mid where they included Scouts and Hunters to counter our group, which I thought was pretty good to see. Melee Rangers were a thing in classic/SI (because of PD etc.) Due to "meh" bow damage and PF being all but useless I will be trying a Split Spec melee Ranger with bow primarily for interrupting. It may suck or it could be great. I have no idea and that's a good thing for the game.

Let's see some more discussion for all Archers based on the limitations we have on Phoenix.

I'm just going to ignore jelzinga_EU until he provides data rather than opinion.

Took me an all-time of 10 minutes to disprove your theory:
https://ibb.co/NmxD9FS

As you can see my evade% vs a NS is the same whether or not he swings his offhand. Your "theory" disproved in a real RvR-scenario; rather than in paper-DAOC.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:44 PM by The Skies Asunder

I was always under the impression that evade wasn't effected by duel wield, that only shields were. Does it also effect evade rates?

Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:53 PM by Cadebrennus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:32 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
Ganil wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:56 PM
Back in the day simply equipping the weapon would grant the penetration bonus.
It's nerfed here to 25% instead of 50%.

You're right about the parry, but it's mostly forgotten because it's not the most common defense type imo.

I think everything has already been said on this thread now.

I think a discussion regarding theorycraft on different specs, playstyles, and tactics would be interesting considering the differences and similarities between the Archer classes, taking into account the known factors outlined in my post and the posts prior to mine. Personally I hate pigeonholing classes and specs due to narrow opinion. For example, I and my group did really well on live with a Visi Spec Ranger in a regular Visi 8man. In the latter part of the first half of 2016 we actually saw a shift in Alb and Mid where they included Scouts and Hunters to counter our group, which I thought was pretty good to see. Melee Rangers were a thing in classic/SI (because of PD etc.) Due to "meh" bow damage and PF being all but useless I will be trying a Split Spec melee Ranger with bow primarily for interrupting. It may suck or it could be great. I have no idea and that's a good thing for the game.

Let's see some more discussion for all Archers based on the limitations we have on Phoenix.

I'm just going to ignore jelzinga_EU until he provides data rather than opinion.

Took me an all-time of 10 minutes to disprove your theory:
https://ibb.co/NmxD9FS

As you can see my evade% vs a NS is the same whether or not he swings his offhand. Your "theory" disproved in a real RvR-scenario; rather than in paper-DAOC.

Thank you for testing. I said in an earlier post that it was a possibility that I was wrong so it's good to see data provide a firm answer. I'm glad to see other people testing. Now, instead of turning this thread into a pissing contest, how about we get back into a productive discussion regarding the classes without any knee-jerk responses and tightly held misinformation.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:27 PM by Durgrim

thank you

So basically, to narrow it down,
(without other buffs)
Scout has hardest ranged melee critshot hit possible due to slowest bow? furthermore he has highest range of all as well as access to 4.0 bow for rapid fire rupting?

good.

Ranger has a DMG add buff for himself which allows him to par with the scout regarding critshot dmg on top?

Hunter, meh.... okay

Someone else please sum this up...i feel ashamed

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:56 PM by krycek

Should come down to which realm can duo with a minstrel. Scout wins.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:57 PM by Cadebrennus

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 11:27 PM
thank you

So basically, to narrow it down,
(without other buffs)
Scout has hardest ranged melee critshot hit possible due to slowest bow? furthermore he has highest range of all as well as access to 4.0 bow for rapid fire rupting?

good.

Ranger has a DMG add buff for himself which allows him to par with the scout regarding critshot dmg on top?

Hunter, meh.... okay Someone else please sum this up...i feel ashamed

Scouts and Rangers should have equal speed crafted bows as far as I know. If a Ranger decides to sacrifice the almighty spec points into PF for the DA then technically the Ranger has the edge in the hardest Crit Shot (and higher damage regular shots). However it is a big sacrifice to other spec lines considering how useless PF is. Over time a Hunter's shots are the same as a Scout and a PF-lacking Ranger. A Hunter will not have the same initial damage (aka Critshot) as a Scout or Ranger. Their range deficiency is so minute it is dismissable (do /groundset 100 and /groundset 200 to get an in-game visual of the difference between Hunter/Ranger and Hunter/Scout). So a Hunter won't be able put out as big a Critshot as Scout/Ranger but they also don't have to bow swap to hit the 1.5 second speed cap while Rapid Firing. Honestly though the bow swap problem is pretty dismissable on Phoenix due to the /switch command.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:10 AM by Durgrim

What bow speed is needed for Rapid Fire cap 1.5s?

Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:42 AM by stridberg

Scout is crush resistant and thrust vulnerable.
Ranger is slash resistant and crush vulnerable.
Hunter is thrust resistant and slash vulnerable.

Big overall advantage to the ranger in stealther matchups here.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:31 PM by Kappu

Nobody has stated that Hunter pets also reduce the evasion, block and parry rates by 25%.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:42 PM by Shadowblade1

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:53 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:44 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:14 PM
FYI Hunter and Ranger melee output was tested by me and others during beta and 2h Hunter (without pet) = Ranger dual wielding damage. With pet it increases even more.

Scout 1h = Ranger 1h = Hunter 1h at equal spec.

Scout Bow Range = 2200
Ranger Bow Range = 2100
Hunter Bow Range = 2000

Ranger and Scout get 5.4ish bows for harder Critshots, Hunters do not.

For regular shots and hitting Rapid Fire speed cap, bow speeds are more equal (4.0 - 4.7ish, don't remember exact Hunter bow speeds)

At 50+15 CD (unlikely) Ranger is swinging both weapons at 69% of the time. That means that 31% of the time they are swinging 1h without any defensive bonus and are swinging without any additional defensive penetration vs shield or evade. Also keep in mind that dual wielding penetration is only 25%, not 50%.

More likely CD specs for Rangers:
29+15 CD = 54% chance to dual wield, 46% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

18+15 CD = 47% chance to swing both weapons, 53% chance to swing only 1 weapon.

Buffs from Pathfinding and Beastcraft are completely overshadowed by pots and charges. The DA in PF is by itself not worth spending the spec points on. The dog in BC is however, IMO, as it is a valuable interrupt tool and does as much damage as an unstyled hit per hit. The attack speed is slow however, and the run speed sucks when sending it to a target.

Keep these figures in mind before engaging in hyperbole and flame wars. Happy comparing.

What makes you think you do not get defensive penetration vs shield or evade when your offhand doesn't swing? Simply equipping an offhand does this (or should do) - and this alone swings the balance (heavily) in the favor of rangers. I'm not saying this is unfair, but it is a big flaw in your argument as it means rangers are much more suited against high evade/block (assassins, scouts, tanks) than hunters.

The damage of the pet "doing an unstyled hit per hit" doesn't mean a lot without context (definitely not as much as an unstyled spear hit, and it swings slower than that) but it doesn't proc anything offensive yet procs everything defensively.

Just saying

I haven't seen any evidence that says defense penetration happens on a single hit. The wording is "dual wielding" so it could happen either way. I haven't done the testing as the random nature of dual wielding would make confirming or denying this a nightmare. The most logical conclusion for me is that 1 weapon attacking = 1 weapon defense penetration or lack thereof. I could be wrong in this matter but it stands to have extensive testing to prove me wrong. The way Mythic originally coded everything it's a strong possibility that defensive penetration only works when both weapons swing. Perhaps Gruen could confirm or deny.

Regarding the dog I've done testing and the dog does as much damage as an unstyled 50 spec 1handed hit. This was tested during beta. Keep in mind that most Archer players aren't speccing 50 weapon so that makes the dog even more potent.

25% is a lot less potent than the 50% defense penetration that dual wielders started with.

2handed weapons have a defense penetration bonus against parry but somehow Hunter players always forget to mention that.

Careful with the claims and be cautious of hyperbole. No one said dogs were = to an unstyled spear hit, nor are dual wielders these amazing defensive barrier melters.

Dog would need further testing after the pet changes.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:10 PM by Cadebrennus

Shadowblade1 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:42 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:53 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:44 PM
What makes you think you do not get defensive penetration vs shield or evade when your offhand doesn't swing? Simply equipping an offhand does this (or should do) - and this alone swings the balance (heavily) in the favor of rangers. I'm not saying this is unfair, but it is a big flaw in your argument as it means rangers are much more suited against high evade/block (assassins, scouts, tanks) than hunters.

The damage of the pet "doing an unstyled hit per hit" doesn't mean a lot without context (definitely not as much as an unstyled spear hit, and it swings slower than that) but it doesn't proc anything offensive yet procs everything defensively.

Just saying

I haven't seen any evidence that says defense penetration happens on a single hit. The wording is "dual wielding" so it could happen either way. I haven't done the testing as the random nature of dual wielding would make confirming or denying this a nightmare. The most logical conclusion for me is that 1 weapon attacking = 1 weapon defense penetration or lack thereof. I could be wrong in this matter but it stands to have extensive testing to prove me wrong. The way Mythic originally coded everything it's a strong possibility that defensive penetration only works when both weapons swing. Perhaps Gruen could confirm or deny.

Regarding the dog I've done testing and the dog does as much damage as an unstyled 50 spec 1handed hit. This was tested during beta. Keep in mind that most Archer players aren't speccing 50 weapon so that makes the dog even more potent.

25% is a lot less potent than the 50% defense penetration that dual wielders started with.

2handed weapons have a defense penetration bonus against parry but somehow Hunter players always forget to mention that.

Careful with the claims and be cautious of hyperbole. No one said dogs were = to an unstyled spear hit, nor are dual wielders these amazing defensive barrier melters.

Dog would need further testing after the pet changes.

Which pet change affects dog? I haven't paid that much attention to patch notes lately.

Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:14 PM by cere2

Ranger is poo.
Scout is bigger pile of poo.
Hunter is biggest pile of poo.

What poo best suits yoo?

Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:20 PM by mhenfhis

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 8:10 AM
What bow speed is needed for Rapid Fire cap 1.5s?

With a 5.5 bow and around 240 quickness my rapid fire is 1.7 / 1.6 cant remember well.

Right now from my point of view and xperience ranger > hunter/scout .

I find hybrid Rangers far superior to Hunter or Scout. They get CD and nice utilty in styles side stun, evade stun, ASR, and bow ^^. Hunter spear is very nice and hits hard they have also Stun and ASR but are harder to get since they are back and side, where rangers one are side and anytime.
And scouts, well you get shield, you need to spent some mob to make it effective, where a ranger or hunter can spent in MOP /FA so is kinda trade off. So you can make fights longer when you really need to make em faster

For me as scout i find much harder to fight Hunters than Rangers, just because the pet. Vs a ranger can force numb+purge and the hope for crit but thats not possible with hunter+pet

Tue 30 Apr 2019 1:01 AM by Emeryc

I think it's important to note that, of all the stealth classes, Rangers and Hunters are the only ones with NO escape tool.

Tue 30 Apr 2019 1:31 AM by Barroom

I love the scout. I have him setup for defense mostly and it's a lot of fun.

There are some NS/SBs that kick my ass, but I do win a lot verse them as well. I shocked myself beating a RR7 NS last night 1v1 out in Odins. I wish I had remembered his name. If I can force purge and live for a while (Heal pot, Ip3, Legion heal) and land slam it's usually GG. I have to burn everything I have to beat NS/SBs but it happens more often than not honestly.

One thing I'm trying right now and I'm not sure I like it... yet is slash on my +15 dex Saracen. Amy and Riposte hit pretty hard. I lost about 700 WS switching to slash though, which makes me sad. I don't seem to miss as much as I thought I would though.

MoB 5 Aug Dex 5 IP3 Purge 2 LW/Tireless atm

Thu 2 May 2019 12:04 AM by Shadowblade1

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:10 PM
Shadowblade1 wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 7:42 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 5:53 PM
I haven't seen any evidence that says defense penetration happens on a single hit. The wording is "dual wielding" so it could happen either way. I haven't done the testing as the random nature of dual wielding would make confirming or denying this a nightmare. The most logical conclusion for me is that 1 weapon attacking = 1 weapon defense penetration or lack thereof. I could be wrong in this matter but it stands to have extensive testing to prove me wrong. The way Mythic originally coded everything it's a strong possibility that defensive penetration only works when both weapons swing. Perhaps Gruen could confirm or deny.

Regarding the dog I've done testing and the dog does as much damage as an unstyled 50 spec 1handed hit. This was tested during beta. Keep in mind that most Archer players aren't speccing 50 weapon so that makes the dog even more potent.

25% is a lot less potent than the 50% defense penetration that dual wielders started with.

2handed weapons have a defense penetration bonus against parry but somehow Hunter players always forget to mention that.

Careful with the claims and be cautious of hyperbole. No one said dogs were = to an unstyled spear hit, nor are dual wielders these amazing defensive barrier melters.

Dog would need further testing after the pet changes.

Which pet change affects dog? I haven't paid that much attention to patch notes lately.

Last I read there was a universal pet change that also adversary effected the hunter. Pets, apparently, were hitting accuracy and damage was based on caster level instead of pets level and that was not as intended. Except for Necro, I believe.

This effected both caster and melee pet damage. So across the board for casted pets, it's a hit. It was a small buff for charmed pets.