Question about block/parry mechanics

Started 21 Mar 2019
by Duse
in Tavern
When an attack is made, does it “check” that attack against the opponents parry and block, i.e. if the attack passes the parry, does it then calculate against the block? Or does it only check it against a single defence, I.e attack passes parry, attack hits.

Basically what I’m getting at, is there much of an advantage to have parry high if block is high(I know they each have advantages and disadvantages) but simply for the sake of maximum defense.
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:46 PM by BisbyHoughton
There is a hierarchy of defensive checks, I just can't recall the order.

Think it is something like:

Evade check
Parry check
Block check
Fumble check

Disclaimer: my memory of this could be pretty fucked up lol
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:55 PM by Duse
Ok, but ultimately if one defense fails(I.e. in this order parry) then block still has a chance to defend the attack after parry fails. That’s good to know
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:19 AM by jg777
BisbyHoughton wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:46 PM
There is a hierarchy of defensive checks, I just can't recall the order.

Think it is something like:

Evade check
Parry check
Block check
Fumble check

Disclaimer: my memory of this could be pretty fucked up lol

I believe it goes fumble>parry>block>evade. It definitely checks each one before landing a hit on the target.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:42 PM by Billiken
FWIW, base Dawn of Light emulator is:
Evade -> Parry -> Block

https://github.com/Dawn-of-Light/DOLSharp/blob/7d0a43b0b5489c543a161fc4fc9b7ea9c49648ff/GameServer/gameobjects/GameLiving.cs#L3396
Sat 23 Mar 2019 3:53 PM by gruenesschaf
On the 16th we changed the way defensive rolls are done a bit, see https://playphoenix.online/patch-notes

Changes like that do not appear in /servernews as any news related to a change in rng will always cause people to pay super close attention to the rng results and thereby have people report "issues" that aren't there, as there haven't been any rng weirdness reports since the update it's assumed to be working as expected.

Even though it's now a single roll there is no difference between the results when we had different rolls per type, the combined defensive chance is unchanged and even the chance per evade / parry etc. is unchanged, evade chance still "reduces" parry chance and block chance.

With individual rolls only those attacks with a failed evade roll would check parry and only those that failed the parry check would do a block roll, in the single roll that now means the evade chance is as it should be and the parry chance is basically reduced to reflect that it only works on the remaining attacks, example:

If you have
20% evade
20% parry
20% block

Old:
All 1000 attacks will see an evade check, 200 will be evaded. All 800 remaining attacks will see a parry check, 160 will be parried, the remaining 640 attacks will see a block check, 128 will be blocked. The remaining 512 attacks will see a miss check and either miss or hit.

New:
A combat result table is made and a single random call is made, the combat result table is filled with the modified chances: 20% evade, 16% parry, 12.8% block, x% miss and the remainder being a hit. Of 1000 attacks 200 attacks will still be evaded, 160 will still be parried, 128 will still be blocked.

The main reason for this change is that we wanted to add our streak avoidance (positive and negative) to the defensive rolls and since that is not a state less roll (where each result is entirely independent from previous rolls, which is not the case with any kind of streak avoidance) we needed a single roll for it to work properly.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:09 PM by Ardri
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 3:53 PM
The main reason for this change is that we wanted to add our streak avoidance (positive and negative) to the defensive rolls and since that is not a state less roll (where each result is entirely independent from previous rolls, which is not the case with any kind of streak avoidance) we needed a single roll for it to work properly.

So you mean to say if you have 0 defenses, the more times you are hit in a row the more likely you are to parry/evade/block/be missed on the next one?
And vice versa, if you have extremely high defenses, the more times you block in a row the more likely someone is to penetrate the defenses on the next hit?
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:16 PM by chryso
I do not understand why this is necessary. Any RNG is subject to streaks. Is this just because people who don't understand the nature of RNGs tend to complain when a streak occurs that is not in their favor?
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:20 PM by gruenesschaf
chryso wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:16 PM
I do not understand why this is necessary. Any RNG is subject to streaks. Is this just because people who don't understand the nature of RNGs tend to complain when a streak occurs that is not in their favor?

Yes. Many games basically move away from normal rng for that reason, a well known example would be dota with their PRD (increasing chance on every failure until success then reset to much lower than listed chance, averages out to be the listed chance but with reduced streaks). Another example would be a card system, where all possible solutions are in a bag and every random roll draws a card making that particular card unavailable for subsequent draws until the bag is empty. We're using PRD for crits / procs and since this change the card system for defensive rolls, for most of alpha / beta we used a card bag per defense type for those rolls and since launch it was normal rng (except miss / resist).
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:35 PM by defiasbandit
Is the card bag system being used for the 600% block rates on bolts I am seeing.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:46 PM by chryso
defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:35 PM
Is the card bag system being used for the 600% block rates on bolts I am seeing.

I hope not. We want to keep that as high as possible.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 12:07 PM by Jimmy0000
I can't help but think this has made defense deficient on this server somehow. High defense specs are pretty much garbage on this sever, and it could be one reason, or it could be multiple reasons, but if all the defense abilities are put in one big roll, then what happens if one defense, such as block, is being reduced by a dual wielder, but your parry ISNT. If you had separate rolls, then you could still have a high parry chance (i.e. the way it was on live) wheras on here, ALL your defense would be reduced. Also, it seems like against parry/shield everyone has warrior level weaponskill on this server; I get constantly hit from the front all the time with a 37block/parry spec with moblock 6 and moparry 6. There is just something simply wrong with that. It's things like this that are causing assassins to unstealth when they see a large shield on a tank, and chase them down, meleeing them down while they retain about 50 percent health with no PA needed. specline defense (block/parry) needs a boost on this server, more than anything I have seen as of yet. When a buffed BM is attacking me, for example, my defense is reduced about the same as when a stealther is attacking, (reduced less, if anything, which is strange since a tank should have much higher weaponskill)
In all honesty, I think this server would be better off with Uthgard's defense design; weaponskill has no influence on anything but damage, then defense would actually be defensive, which is pretty much the whole point. I remember distinctly on the classic 2004 servers at level 49/50 defence tanks would blockblockblockblock against low weaponskill people, and quite frankly that's the way it should be. It's simply not like that at all here, even with defese RAs.

One always needs to regard the fundamental concept that various things in DAOC were designed the way they were for a distinct reason. Tanks aren't particularly tanky in daoc compared to other mmorpgs, because block/parry actually does something in DAOC, besides being a glorified arm decoration. If shields/parry are going to be useless on here, like on a variety of other mmorpgs, then hybrids should get about 50 percent more hitpoints, and heavy/light tanks should get about 75 percent more hitpoints. Here, they are simply stealther food while making their way to the AMG/MMG. If you're going to have stealth tanks, then simply take visible tanks out of the game.

Back in 2010 daoc was slowly devolving into a similar issue in about the best thread I ever read on the subject:

https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/game-is-too-easy-for-casters-and-stealthers-at-50-and-too-hard-for-melees.250247468/
Thu 25 Apr 2019 12:32 PM by HtGeist
I go by the 3rd post from the bottom in this thread on defenses https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/chance-to-evade-block-and-parry.250226747/
keeping in mind here block cap is 60% in rvr and dual wielder reduces block 25%..and here the rng is against you...have reaver mob5 45% chance to block 27% chance to parry and the base 7% evade on a yellow mob..can go 12 hits 5 lands not a single block...but it can surely find the 4% to miss 3 times in the combat.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 2:31 PM by Duse
I agree completely. The defence mechanics are broken. A large shield should suffer no penalty, or at least minor penalty vs dual wield, make a reason to actually play like a tank. My scout with 300 dex, 42+13 shield, and MoB7, had a 32-35% block rate vs dual wield. With that kind of investment, I expected better. It was about 45-48% vs single weapon users. Considering the damage potential given up by using a one handed weapon, there should be higher reward for defensive spec.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 3:29 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Duse wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 2:31 PM
I agree completely. The defence mechanics are broken. A large shield should suffer no penalty, or at least minor penalty vs dual wield, make a reason to actually play like a tank. My scout with 300 dex, 42+13 shield, and MoB7, had a 32-35% block rate vs dual wield. With that kind of investment, I expected better. It was about 45-48% vs single weapon users. Considering the damage potential given up by using a one handed weapon, there should be higher reward for defensive spec.

If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that offense is the best defense, lol. This game, in no way, supports a high defense build.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 8:52 PM by gruenesschaf
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 12:07 PM
I can't help but think this has made defense deficient on this server somehow. High defense specs are pretty much garbage on this sever, and it could be one reason, or it could be multiple reasons, but if all the defense abilities are put in one big roll, then what happens if one defense, such as block, is being reduced by a dual wielder, but your parry ISNT. If you had separate rolls, then you could still have a high parry chance (i.e. the way it was on live) wheras on here, ALL your defense would be reduced. Also, it seems like against parry/shield everyone has warrior level weaponskill on this server; I get constantly hit from the front all the time with a 37block/parry spec with moblock 6 and moparry 6. There is just something simply wrong with that. It's things like this that are causing assassins to unstealth when they see a large shield on a tank, and chase them down, meleeing them down while they retain about 50 percent health with no PA needed. specline defense (block/parry) needs a boost on this server, more than anything I have seen as of yet. When a buffed BM is attacking me, for example, my defense is reduced about the same as when a stealther is attacking, (reduced less, if anything, which is strange since a tank should have much higher weaponskill)
In all honesty, I think this server would be better off with Uthgard's defense design; weaponskill has no influence on anything but damage, then defense would actually be defensive, which is pretty much the whole point. I remember distinctly on the classic 2004 servers at level 49/50 defence tanks would blockblockblockblock against low weaponskill people, and quite frankly that's the way it should be. It's simply not like that at all here, even with defese RAs.

One always needs to regard the fundamental concept that various things in DAOC were designed the way they were for a distinct reason. Tanks aren't particularly tanky in daoc compared to other mmorpgs, because block/parry actually does something in DAOC, besides being a glorified arm decoration. If shields/parry are going to be useless on here, like on a variety of other mmorpgs, then hybrids should get about 50 percent more hitpoints, and heavy/light tanks should get about 75 percent more hitpoints. Here, they are simply stealther food while making their way to the AMG/MMG. If you're going to have stealth tanks, then simply take visible tanks out of the game.

Back in 2010 daoc was slowly devolving into a similar issue in about the best thread I ever read on the subject:

https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/game-is-too-easy-for-casters-and-stealthers-at-50-and-too-hard-for-melees.250247468/

Combining it in a single changes nothing statistically. That means it also properly takes care of the reductions for specific parts.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 9:43 PM by Jimmy0000
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 8:52 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 12:07 PM
I can't help but think this has made defense deficient on this server somehow. High defense specs are pretty much garbage on this sever, and it could be one reason, or it could be multiple reasons, but if all the defense abilities are put in one big roll, then what happens if one defense, such as block, is being reduced by a dual wielder, but your parry ISNT. If you had separate rolls, then you could still have a high parry chance (i.e. the way it was on live) wheras on here, ALL your defense would be reduced. Also, it seems like against parry/shield everyone has warrior level weaponskill on this server; I get constantly hit from the front all the time with a 37block/parry spec with moblock 6 and moparry 6. There is just something simply wrong with that. It's things like this that are causing assassins to unstealth when they see a large shield on a tank, and chase them down, meleeing them down while they retain about 50 percent health with no PA needed. specline defense (block/parry) needs a boost on this server, more than anything I have seen as of yet. When a buffed BM is attacking me, for example, my defense is reduced about the same as when a stealther is attacking, (reduced less, if anything, which is strange since a tank should have much higher weaponskill)
In all honesty, I think this server would be better off with Uthgard's defense design; weaponskill has no influence on anything but damage, then defense would actually be defensive, which is pretty much the whole point. I remember distinctly on the classic 2004 servers at level 49/50 defence tanks would blockblockblockblock against low weaponskill people, and quite frankly that's the way it should be. It's simply not like that at all here, even with defese RAs.

One always needs to regard the fundamental concept that various things in DAOC were designed the way they were for a distinct reason. Tanks aren't particularly tanky in daoc compared to other mmorpgs, because block/parry actually does something in DAOC, besides being a glorified arm decoration. If shields/parry are going to be useless on here, like on a variety of other mmorpgs, then hybrids should get about 50 percent more hitpoints, and heavy/light tanks should get about 75 percent more hitpoints. Here, they are simply stealther food while making their way to the AMG/MMG. If you're going to have stealth tanks, then simply take visible tanks out of the game.

Back in 2010 daoc was slowly devolving into a similar issue in about the best thread I ever read on the subject:

https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/game-is-too-easy-for-casters-and-stealthers-at-50-and-too-hard-for-melees.250247468/

Combining it in a single changes nothing statistically. That means it also properly takes care of the reductions for specific parts.

Begging your pardon, admin gruenesschaf, if that's the case, then why is defense so blatantly deficient on here? If you're saying that your new formula wouldn't make anything less defensive in the hypothetical i gave - why then is defense so.... bad on here, then? Particularly parry/block. Is it some weaponskill issue where everyone is running around with too much weaponskill, or what? I ask this, because I have distinct memories of live. Even if you took out the -25 percent shield penalty, defense would *still* be deficient, because the rates are so fundamentally low, for whatever reason. If I were to take a wild guess.
I would say the reason mythic gave the -50 percent shield block penalty on live is because, shield users had no problems getting shield up to insanely high levels like in the 80-90 percent block rate.... block percentage was able to be increased to such a degree, they ended up putting a 75 percent cap on it, after they fixed the "dual wield halves block" bug. Does this server take into account quality of shield, and item level of the shield? Those were both factors that increased block on live. (I remember reading it in a grab-bag by Sanya) At any rate, I hope things change, because at the moment, you guys have buffed all dual wield much higher than it was on live (without full aug buffs I never remember seeing 175+ mainhand damage from stealthers on a chain wearer), yet defense is literally 10x worse than it was on live, at pretty much any era I can think of that I played in.
What's more is, evade rates seem to stay at about 39 percent unconditionally, no matter who is attacking the assassin, block and parry on the other hand struggle to stay anywhere near 40.
As a tank, if you have around 40 block/parry and moparry/moblock 6 your block rate against a low weaponskill dual wielder ought to be something like 65 -25, and your parry rate ought to be about 50 with no penalty. Against a warrior it should look something like 40 percent (block) 30 percent parry. Instead, on this server when you're fighting assassins, your parry is usually about 25 percent, and your block is like 29 percent.

I was just watching uthgard 2013 videos of a warrior and his group rvring in emain, and the TTK was much higher on uthgard, as it was on live, on the 2004 classic server, people used alot of buff pots/item charges back then and everyone still stayed alive longer, and blocked/parried much more, and just didn't take as much damage from ranged attacks in general. Anyway, all I'm saying is a hope none of the aformentioned mechanics on Phoenix are a fixture, and all this is a work in progress, rather than a final end result.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 9:56 PM by Jimmy0000
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 3:29 PM
Duse wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 2:31 PM
I agree completely. The defence mechanics are broken. A large shield should suffer no penalty, or at least minor penalty vs dual wield, make a reason to actually play like a tank. My scout with 300 dex, 42+13 shield, and MoB7, had a 32-35% block rate vs dual wield. With that kind of investment, I expected better. It was about 45-48% vs single weapon users. Considering the damage potential given up by using a one handed weapon, there should be higher reward for defensive spec.

If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that offense is the best defense, lol. This game, in no way, supports a high defense build.

If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that (for tanks) Defense is the best Offense, lol. This game in every way, in every era (on live) supports a high defense build.
--Fixed--

I remember back on the classic servers in 2003-4 where everyone was running around with about the same degree of buffs that exist on here, and defense was king in melee fights. And why not? What on earth good would it be otherwise? You have next to no offense while holding a shield, so to make up for it, you absolutely should be able to choose to get a defensive build going, and you could.

Not sure what daoc era you played, but you simply don't know what you're talking about on this one. If you don't believe me, go on youtube and type things like 'solo warrior' 'snarf' 'solo' 'savage' 'shield champ' and be instantaneously proven wrong. Fights against shield users could last minutes. On Phoenix, shield users can't last 6 seconds, nevermind 60.

I also played a savage, and let me tell you, their defense was absolute garbage unless they were buffed. Here, it's like evasion has some weird high base where weaponskill hardly reduces it, even when you're unbuffed. On the flip side, specline defense is the exact opposite, it is highly subject to your opponents weaponskill.
Thu 25 Apr 2019 11:24 PM by hellcon
Duse wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 2:31 PM
I agree completely. The defense mechanics are broken. A large shield should suffer no penalty, or at least minor penalty vs dual wield, make a reason to actually play like a tank. My scout with 300 dex, 42+13 shield, and MoB7, had a 32-35% block rate vs dual wield. With that kind of investment, I expected better. It was about 45-48% vs single weapon users. Considering the damage potential given up by using a one handed weapon, there should be higher reward for defensive spec.

The expected block rate should be:
5 + ([300 *2] - 100) /40 + 55/2 + 18 = 68% block chance.

The block cap is 60%. DW reduces that by 25%.

What is unknown is the order and math being done to achieve those caps.
Is the 60% calculated before or after the targets WS. If before, than 60% block-rate is never achievable & going past MOB4 is a waste of RA points.

Is the 25% DW penalty a flat subtraction or multiplicative. Does it occur before or after the cap?
If after and subtraction, that would mean you have a hard cap of 35% block rate & then reduced by targets WS (which would be terribly wrong)
If before than 43% then reduced by targets WS.

If multiplicative then before cap: 51%
Multiplicative after cap: 45%

Get some screenshots of you blocking against a DW and we can see what is happening.


Edit: To add, WS should have a very minor impact on bypassing defenses. Not 10-20%. So more than likely the caps are designed to heavily favor stealthers (like most mechanics on this server) & going past mob4 is a waste
Fri 26 Apr 2019 1:14 AM by phixion
As a SB, taking my sword from 32+20 (comp 52) to 44+20 gave me 100WS and didn't really change much when it comes to evade rates vs me and defence penetration.
Fri 26 Apr 2019 1:28 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 9:56 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 3:29 PM
Duse wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 2:31 PM
I agree completely. The defence mechanics are broken. A large shield should suffer no penalty, or at least minor penalty vs dual wield, make a reason to actually play like a tank. My scout with 300 dex, 42+13 shield, and MoB7, had a 32-35% block rate vs dual wield. With that kind of investment, I expected better. It was about 45-48% vs single weapon users. Considering the damage potential given up by using a one handed weapon, there should be higher reward for defensive spec.

If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that offense is the best defense, lol. This game, in no way, supports a high defense build.

If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that (for tanks) Defense is the best Offense, lol. This game in every way, in every era (on live) supports a high defense build.
--Fixed--

I remember back on the classic servers in 2003-4 where everyone was running around with about the same degree of buffs that exist on here, and defense was king in melee fights. And why not? What on earth good would it be otherwise? You have next to no offense while holding a shield, so to make up for it, you absolutely should be able to choose to get a defensive build going, and you could.

Not sure what daoc era you played, but you simply don't know what you're talking about on this one. If you don't believe me, go on youtube and type things like 'solo warrior' 'snarf' 'solo' 'savage' 'shield champ' and be instantaneously proven wrong. Fights against shield users could last minutes. On Phoenix, shield users can't last 6 seconds, nevermind 60.

I also played a savage, and let me tell you, their defense was absolute garbage unless they were buffed. Here, it's like evasion has some weird high base where weaponskill hardly reduces it, even when you're unbuffed. On the flip side, specline defense is the exact opposite, it is highly subject to your opponents weaponskill.

Not really sure what your point is here. In other MMO's a defensive build is plausible and quite viable in practice. In DAoC; however, outside of a block bot for PvE; high defensive builds are, and have been, relatively pointless.

You even state that high defensive builds are pointless on Phoenix?

Obviously you'll find occasions where you can get kills as a defensive build (generally against most people that aren't capable of dancing). But in DAoC specifically DPS output is far more valuable then a defensive build.
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:14 PM by Jimmy0000
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 1:28 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 9:56 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 3:29 PM
If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that offense is the best defense, lol. This game, in no way, supports a high defense build.

If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that (for tanks) Defense is the best Offense, lol. This game in every way, in every era (on live) supports a high defense build.
--Fixed--

I remember back on the classic servers in 2003-4 where everyone was running around with about the same degree of buffs that exist on here, and defense was king in melee fights. And why not? What on earth good would it be otherwise? You have next to no offense while holding a shield, so to make up for it, you absolutely should be able to choose to get a defensive build going, and you could.

Not sure what daoc era you played, but you simply don't know what you're talking about on this one. If you don't believe me, go on youtube and type things like 'solo warrior' 'snarf' 'solo' 'savage' 'shield champ' and be instantaneously proven wrong. Fights against shield users could last minutes. On Phoenix, shield users can't last 6 seconds, nevermind 60.

I also played a savage, and let me tell you, their defense was absolute garbage unless they were buffed. Here, it's like evasion has some weird high base where weaponskill hardly reduces it, even when you're unbuffed. On the flip side, specline defense is the exact opposite, it is highly subject to your opponents weaponskill.

Not really sure what your point is here. In other MMO's a defensive build is plausible and quite viable in practice. In DAoC; however, outside of a block bot for PvE; high defensive builds are, and have been, relatively pointless.

You even state that high defensive builds are pointless on Phoenix?

Obviously you'll find occasions where you can get kills as a defensive build (generally against most people that aren't capable of dancing). But in DAoC specifically DPS output is far more valuable then a defensive build.

Yeah high defense builds are pointless on phoenix, because Phoenix isn't DAOC, it's Phoenix.

"DAoC specifically DPS output is far more valuable then a defensive build."

If that was true for all classes, warriors would have their 2h equipped by default, whereas wheither they are solo, or grouped, they have their shield out 50-90 percent of the time Anyway, nothing you said disproves my point, i'm not going to repeat myself about the videos you chose to ignore, and all the things i've personally witnessed in the daoc classic servers after countless duels.

The main reason I responded back is because what you said
"This game is, and has never supported high defense builds" is patently incorrect, and misleading, and can be instantly disproven by simply typing 'daoc' 'warrior' 'thane' etc on youtube. It's a projection on your part that makes Phoenix's defense mechanics look more live-like/legit than they actually are.
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM by Ashenspire
Shield is specced into for a 9 second stun that isn't reduced by resistances or realm abilities.

The block chance is nice, but when a warrior is on the offensive in RvR they will be using their 2hander on the melee train. Even guarding people isn't worth relying on as a primary source of defenses, the shield is used for peeling.

If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:13 PM by Jimmy0000
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
The block chance is nice, but when a warrior is on the offensive in RvR they will be using their 2hander on the melee train.

You don't say?

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.

Funny you should mention that because of all the various shieldmasters and armsmercs that have existed.

High defense specs were pretty much king in the original context of my initial post. Furthermore, most people play light tanks, and use dual wield because they want to inflict damage on casters and other less durable people as fast as possible, which is a totally different context to melee vs melee fighting that i was talking about in my first post. I said on this server, defense specced tanks are stealther food... and they are. That simply wasn't the case on live. Defense pretty much was king at various patch eras when you were jumped by stealthers while traveling to a mile gate. Offense specced tanks who had like 28 parry and nothing else were the ones who were meh against stealthers and other tanks.

The bottom line is this, on this server defense is garbage, on live it was literally 50-100 percent more effective depending on the server patch era. That's simply not the way things should be; it literally makes classes that have no choice but to use a shield/parry/1h combo completely useless when fighting other melee.

Mechanically, this server reminds me of the 2007-2015 era. Yes, in that era defense tanks were deficient, (tanks in general were at their most deficient) but still not to the degree they were on here. At least there's no caster-archers on this server to bypass shield.
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:50 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:14 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 1:28 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 9:56 PM
If there is one thing I learned over the years regarding DAoC is that (for tanks) Defense is the best Offense, lol. This game in every way, in every era (on live) supports a high defense build.
--Fixed--

I remember back on the classic servers in 2003-4 where everyone was running around with about the same degree of buffs that exist on here, and defense was king in melee fights. And why not? What on earth good would it be otherwise? You have next to no offense while holding a shield, so to make up for it, you absolutely should be able to choose to get a defensive build going, and you could.

Not sure what daoc era you played, but you simply don't know what you're talking about on this one. If you don't believe me, go on youtube and type things like 'solo warrior' 'snarf' 'solo' 'savage' 'shield champ' and be instantaneously proven wrong. Fights against shield users could last minutes. On Phoenix, shield users can't last 6 seconds, nevermind 60.

I also played a savage, and let me tell you, their defense was absolute garbage unless they were buffed. Here, it's like evasion has some weird high base where weaponskill hardly reduces it, even when you're unbuffed. On the flip side, specline defense is the exact opposite, it is highly subject to your opponents weaponskill.

Not really sure what your point is here. In other MMO's a defensive build is plausible and quite viable in practice. In DAoC; however, outside of a block bot for PvE; high defensive builds are, and have been, relatively pointless.

You even state that high defensive builds are pointless on Phoenix?

Obviously you'll find occasions where you can get kills as a defensive build (generally against most people that aren't capable of dancing). But in DAoC specifically DPS output is far more valuable then a defensive build.

Yeah high defense builds are pointless on phoenix, because Phoenix isn't DAOC, it's Phoenix.

"DAoC specifically DPS output is far more valuable then a defensive build."

If that was true for all classes, warriors would have their 2h equipped by default, whereas wheither they are solo, or grouped, they have their shield out 50-90 percent of the time Anyway, nothing you said disproves my point, i'm not going to repeat myself about the videos you chose to ignore, and all the things i've personally witnessed in the daoc classic servers after countless duels.

The main reason I responded back is because what you said
"This game is, and has never supported high defense builds" is patently incorrect, and misleading, and can be instantly disproven by simply typing 'daoc' 'warrior' 'thane' etc on youtube. It's a projection on your part that makes Phoenix's defense mechanics look more live-like/legit than they actually are.

Please don't try to argue with me regarding defensive capabilities with your 2002/2003 knowledge base. I have nearly 5 years of Armsman (rr12) knowledge regarding every aspect of play style.

Pure tank builds, outside of PvE, do not work. I'm seriously not even sure what you're trying to argue. Can you kill people as a defensive tank? Sure, every now and again you can, but DAoC RvR is, and always has been, centered around offensive capabilities. You literally cannot argue this. Defensive is a solid secondary/tertiary skill..

P.S. That statement "Yeah high defense builds are pointless on phoenix, because Phoenix isn't DAOC, it's Phoenix." is one of the funniest things I've read today...
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:52 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:13 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
The block chance is nice, but when a warrior is on the offensive in RvR they will be using their 2hander on the melee train.

You don't say?

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.

Funny you should mention that because of all the various shieldmasters and armsmercs that have existed.

High defense specs were pretty much king in the original context of my initial post. Furthermore, most people play light tanks, and use dual wield because they want to inflict damage on casters and other less durable people as fast as possible, which is a totally different context to melee vs melee fighting that i was talking about in my first post. I said on this server, defense specced tanks are stealther food... and they are. That simply wasn't the case on live. Defense pretty much was king at various patch eras when you were jumped by stealthers while traveling to a mile gate. Offense specced tanks who had like 28 parry and nothing else were the ones who were meh against stealthers and other tanks.

The bottom line is this, on this server defense is garbage, on live it was literally 50-100 percent more effective depending on the server patch era. That's simply not the way things should be; it literally makes classes that have no choice but to use a shield/parry/1h combo completely useless when fighting other melee.

Mechanically, this server reminds me of the 2007-2015 era. Yes, in that era defense tanks were deficient, (tanks in general were at their most deficient) but still not to the degree they were on here. At least there's no caster-archers on this server to bypass shield.

You're living in the past mate and you're trying to use 2003 Live DAoC (memories) in an argument regarding 2019 Phoenix...
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:55 PM by Ashenspire
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:13 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
The block chance is nice, but when a warrior is on the offensive in RvR they will be using their 2hander on the melee train.

You don't say?

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.

Funny you should mention that because of all the various shieldmasters and armsmercs that have existed.

High defense specs were pretty much king in the original context of my initial post. Furthermore, most people play light tanks, and use dual wield because they want to inflict damage on casters and other less durable people as fast as possible, which is a totally different context to melee vs melee fighting that i was talking about in my first post. I said on this server, defense specced tanks are stealther food... and they are. That simply wasn't the case on live. Defense pretty much was king at various patch eras when you were jumped by stealthers while traveling to a mile gate. Offense specced tanks who had like 28 parry and nothing else were the ones who were meh against stealthers and other tanks.

The bottom line is this, on this server defense is garbage, on live it was literally 50-100 percent more effective depending on the server patch era. That's simply not the way things should be; it literally makes classes that have no choice but to use a shield/parry/1h combo completely useless when fighting other melee.

Mechanically, this server reminds me of the 2007-2015 era. Yes, in that era defense tanks were deficient, (tanks in general were at their most deficient) but still not to the degree they were on here. At least there's no caster-archers on this server to bypass shield.

The moment they made dual wield cut blocking in half, shield tanks were assassin fodder. So for the majority of the game. If you didn't burst an assassin down within your slam window heavy tanks didn't have any tools in their kit to sustain with how much more damage an assassin could defend against.

The only time defense really shined we're passive damage reductions such as Bunker of Faith, or Bodyguard.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:30 AM by Jimmy0000
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.

The moment they made dual wield cut blocking in half, shield tanks were assassin fodder. So for the majority of the game. If you didn't burst an assassin down within your slam window heavy tanks didn't have any tools in their kit to sustain with how much more damage an assassin could defend against.

The only time defense really shined we're passive damage reductions such as Bunker of Faith, or Bodyguard.

Okay, at this point, you guys are just closing your eyes, covering your ears, and going LALALALALALA...
I keep submitting evidence after evidence that defense DID shine at various patch eras, some more than others, and you guys keep ignoring it. Evidence you can even look up on youtube NOW after Mythic recently put a -25 block reduction on shield AND put a cap on block, and defense is STILL better than on here...

In the 2002-2004 era when blocking was cut in half, BLOCKING DID NOT HAVE A CAP AND THE ASSASSINS WERE BUFFBOTTED, WHILE THE SHIELD TANK WAS NOT.
What's more is you had all these warriors speccing in things like 42 shield, mastery of pain etc.

In the past tanks were able to get blocking on live up to things like 90 percent and parry up to 50 percent... weaponskill actually mattered on live when fighting things like assassins, who unlike on Phoenix, did not have warrior level defense penetration, as a result their crappy weaponskill would help you get your defenses up to cap while fighting them. Half of 90 percent is 40 percent. then you have parry that wasn't halved. That's a 40 percent, plus 50 percent chance to nullify assassins, who hit for like 30 percent less damage than they do on phoenix as well.
On here, with high levels of moblock, and moparry you will run into assassins who will sometimes reduce your block to things like 29 percent and your parry to things like 25 percent.
On average, it's something like 35 percent block and 35 percent parry. Then you have that compounded with more specpoints they get, compounded with higher damage, compounded with no full aug buff HPS and the extra HPs heavy tanks were given later on.

Once again, your responses are just you projecting accuracy/legitimacy onto Phoenix's mechanics compared to live, while trying to pretend defense was anywhere near this useless on live. The 60 percent cap alone on here is un-livelike for 2002. it took mythic eons before they put that 75 percent cap on block. And in case you didn't notice, 75 percent is greater than the 60 percent on here.

"The only time defense really shined we're passive damage reductions such as Bunker of Faith, or Bodyguard."

This is patently incorrect. Unless you're talking about some lame zerg situation where you have like 10 melees rush a shield tank, which had nothing to do with my original context Mr. Moving the Goalposts fallacy.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:51 AM by Jimmy0000
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:52 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 6:13 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
The block chance is nice, but when a warrior is on the offensive in RvR they will be using their 2hander on the melee train.

You don't say?

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.

Funny you should mention that because of all the various shieldmasters and armsmercs that have existed.

High defense specs were pretty much king in the original context of my initial post. Furthermore, most people play light tanks, and use dual wield because they want to inflict damage on casters and other less durable people as fast as possible, which is a totally different context to melee vs melee fighting that i was talking about in my first post. I said on this server, defense specced tanks are stealther food... and they are. That simply wasn't the case on live. Defense pretty much was king at various patch eras when you were jumped by stealthers while traveling to a mile gate. Offense specced tanks who had like 28 parry and nothing else were the ones who were meh against stealthers and other tanks.

The bottom line is this, on this server defense is garbage, on live it was literally 50-100 percent more effective depending on the server patch era. That's simply not the way things should be; it literally makes classes that have no choice but to use a shield/parry/1h combo completely useless when fighting other melee.

Mechanically, this server reminds me of the 2007-2015 era. Yes, in that era defense tanks were deficient, (tanks in general were at their most deficient) but still not to the degree they were on here. At least there's no caster-archers on this server to bypass shield.

You're living in the past mate and you're trying to use 2003 Live DAoC (memories) in an argument regarding 2019 Phoenix...

Is youtube memories? They only put that 75 percent cap on blocking later in daoc's life, and 75 percent is greater than 60 percent like on here.
Take the cap off blocking, like in 2002, make shield quality matter like in 2002, and make shield level matter like in 2002, make opponents weaponskill matter like in 2002, then we'll see how crappy defense was when you could get it up to such high levels with no cap on it.

At any rate, memories aren't invalid simply because they're memories. The reason I remember defense being so good back in 2004 is because my fully temped chars would constantly die to it, or constantly win because of it while often me, or my opponent would only get like 1 hit. Admittedly many of my memories were from when after the dual wield halves shield thing, but never the less it still stands, before that shield wasn't that bad, either. I guarentee you all these warriors who were suffering when shield was halved had some dumb spec like 42 for slam, and no defense RAs and were unbuffed when jumped by assassins/dwers. That's not a shield issue, that's a shield USER issue. How much soloing did you guys actually do to experience these things? 99 percent of people on this forum, based on the way 99 percent of people play phoenix, probably wouldn't know soloing experience if it bit them on the rear... i'm going to presume, by the playerbase on here, and the way you guys are talking, you're speaking from non-solo experience, and primarily spent your rvring as a zergling, or 8v8ling, and as a result, never got to analyze just how effective the base defense mechanics could be compared to here.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 9:10 AM by Drominchen
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
Shield is specced into for a 9 second stun that isn't reduced by resistances or realm abilities.

The block chance is nice, but when a warrior is on the offensive in RvR they will be using their 2hander on the melee train. Even guarding people isn't worth relying on as a primary source of defenses, the shield is used for peeling.

If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.

you are talking phoenix here...

live daoc 2005-2009 playing mostly classic server setting guard was strong enough to keep me as sorc/bard alive and even getting casts out every now and then while being attacked by a 2-3 melee assist train. In solo play shield spec was also extremely strong as long as you did not strafe like mad to hit the shield wearer in the back.
Sat 27 Apr 2019 5:09 PM by Ashenspire
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Apr 2019 8:30 AM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Apr 2019 5:38 PM
If defense were king, mercs and BMs would never dual wield, and Armsmen, warriors and heroes would all be 50 shield/50 parry/28 weapon.

The moment they made dual wield cut blocking in half, shield tanks were assassin fodder. So for the majority of the game. If you didn't burst an assassin down within your slam window heavy tanks didn't have any tools in their kit to sustain with how much more damage an assassin could defend against.

The only time defense really shined we're passive damage reductions such as Bunker of Faith, or Bodyguard.

Okay, at this point, you guys are just closing your eyes, covering your ears, and going LALALALALALA...
I keep submitting evidence after evidence that defense DID shine at various patch eras, some more than others, and you guys keep ignoring it. Evidence you can even look up on youtube NOW after Mythic recently put a -25 block reduction on shield AND put a cap on block, and defense is STILL better than on here...

In the 2002-2004 era when blocking was cut in half, BLOCKING DID NOT HAVE A CAP AND THE ASSASSINS WERE BUFFBOTTED, WHILE THE SHIELD TANK WAS NOT.
What's more is you had all these warriors speccing in things like 42 shield, mastery of pain etc.

In the past tanks were able to get blocking on live up to things like 90 percent and parry up to 50 percent... weaponskill actually mattered on live when fighting things like assassins, who unlike on Phoenix, did not have warrior level defense penetration, as a result their crappy weaponskill would help you get your defenses up to cap while fighting them. Half of 90 percent is 40 percent. then you have parry that wasn't halved. That's a 40 percent, plus 50 percent chance to nullify assassins, who hit for like 30 percent less damage than they do on phoenix as well.
On here, with high levels of moblock, and moparry you will run into assassins who will sometimes reduce your block to things like 29 percent and your parry to things like 25 percent.
On average, it's something like 35 percent block and 35 percent parry. Then you have that compounded with more specpoints they get, compounded with higher damage, compounded with no full aug buff HPS and the extra HPs heavy tanks were given later on.

Once again, your responses are just you projecting accuracy/legitimacy onto Phoenix's mechanics compared to live, while trying to pretend defense was anywhere near this useless on live. The 60 percent cap alone on here is un-livelike for 2002. it took mythic eons before they put that 75 percent cap on block. And in case you didn't notice, 75 percent is greater than the 60 percent on here.

"The only time defense really shined we're passive damage reductions such as Bunker of Faith, or Bodyguard."

This is patently incorrect. Unless you're talking about some lame zerg situation where you have like 10 melees rush a shield tank, which had nothing to do with my original context Mr. Moving the Goalposts fallacy.

You assume the assassin is always buffbotted but the shield tank isn't? That's silly.

Defenses in RvR, aka 8man and zerging, were always incredibly overrated compared to going pure offense. Defensive RAs always outclassed defensive skills such as shield/guard/parry. Before Bodyguard, a tank trying to defend the backline was an exercise in futility. They're better off in the train.

If you feel defense was the way to go, you were a detriment to your group. SImple as that.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 12:40 PM by Jimmy0000
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Apr 2019 5:09 PM
Defenses in RvR, aka 8man and zerging, were always incredibly overrated compared to going pure offense. Defensive RAs always outclassed defensive skills such as shield/guard/parry. Before Bodyguard, a tank trying to defend the backline was an exercise in futility. They're better off in the train.

If you feel defense was the way to go, you were a detriment to your group. SImple as that.
--------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
--------------------------------

Let me repeat myself once again, maybe it'll stick this time? I doubt it since you're purposefully ignoring my points, and refusing to address them. Here's what i said for the 3rd time:

"Funny you should mention that because of all the various shieldmasters and armsmercs that have existed.

High defense specs were pretty much king in the original context of my initial post. Furthermore, most people play light tanks, and use dual wield because they want to inflict damage on casters and other less durable people as fast as possible, which is a totally different context to melee vs melee fighting that i was talking about in my first post. I said on this server, defense specced tanks are stealther food... and they are. That simply wasn't the case on live. Defense pretty much was king at various patch eras when you were jumped by stealthers while traveling to a mile gate. Offense specced tanks who had like 28 parry and nothing else were the ones who were meh against stealthers and other tanks."

Where in god's name up above did i mention keeps, 8v8, zergs etc? Why do you keep mentioning things that had nothing whatsoever to do with my original point? In zergs, and in 8v8 as a tank you're not even going to be attacked by anyone until the very last, and if you do then you've probably already lost (in level 50's crappy/imbalanced mechanics, anyway, in the BG's not necessarily, in molvik/thid, for instance you may have still been the last man standing after everyone died)

Funny you should mention keeps though. Having a shield standing on a keep wall, or in front of the keep wall (as an invading force) high shield spec was absolutely necessary, otherwise your healer would be constantly ressing you.

It's also ironic you mention 8v8, i sure wouldn't want to go up against a hib broup with 2h equipped, i would want shield/1h, otherwise i would see nothing but "Your blow has been absorbed by a magical barrier!" even if a cele healer was there, you'd still see that too much with a 2h.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 4:20 PM by Ashenspire
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 12:40 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Apr 2019 5:09 PM
Defenses in RvR, aka 8man and zerging, were always incredibly overrated compared to going pure offense. Defensive RAs always outclassed defensive skills such as shield/guard/parry. Before Bodyguard, a tank trying to defend the backline was an exercise in futility. They're better off in the train.

If you feel defense was the way to go, you were a detriment to your group. SImple as that.
--------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
--------------------------------

Let me repeat myself once again, maybe it'll stick this time? I doubt it since you're purposefully ignoring my points, and refusing to address them. Here's what i said for the 3rd time:

"Funny you should mention that because of all the various shieldmasters and armsmercs that have existed.

High defense specs were pretty much king in the original context of my initial post. Furthermore, most people play light tanks, and use dual wield because they want to inflict damage on casters and other less durable people as fast as possible, which is a totally different context to melee vs melee fighting that i was talking about in my first post. I said on this server, defense specced tanks are stealther food... and they are. That simply wasn't the case on live. Defense pretty much was king at various patch eras when you were jumped by stealthers while traveling to a mile gate. Offense specced tanks who had like 28 parry and nothing else were the ones who were meh against stealthers and other tanks."

Where in god's name up above did i mention keeps, 8v8, zergs etc? Why do you keep mentioning things that had nothing whatsoever to do with my original point? In zergs, and in 8v8 as a tank you're not even going to be attacked by anyone until the very last, and if you do then you've probably already lost (in level 50's crappy/imbalanced mechanics, anyway, in the BG's not necessarily, in molvik/thid, for instance you may have still been the last man standing after everyone died)

Funny you should mention keeps though. Having a shield standing on a keep wall, or in front of the keep wall (as an invading force) high shield spec was absolutely necessary, otherwise your healer would be constantly ressing you.

It's also ironic you mention 8v8, i sure wouldn't want to go up against a hib broup with 2h equipped, i would want shield/1h, otherwise i would see nothing but "Your blow has been absorbed by a magical barrier!" even if a cele healer was there, you'd still see that too much with a 2h.

No straw man, didn't mention keeps.

Defenses weren't strong in original DAoC or any point in its history, shield tanks were considered useful only for slam. You're misremembering the game, hard. Tanks didn't fight assassins with shield. They slammed em then hit then with their 2handers. There's no context in which defense tanks were considered strong.

Defenses have never been considered strong in DAoC. The shield tank is attacked last because they don't pose a threat. A minor annoyance until Bodyguard, nothing to ever strategize around. Offense has always been the king of this game for pvp. Your memory is failing you.
Sun 28 Apr 2019 4:29 PM by Cadebrennus
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 9:43 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 8:52 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Thu 25 Apr 2019 12:07 PM
I can't help but think this has made defense deficient on this server somehow. High defense specs are pretty much garbage on this sever, and it could be one reason, or it could be multiple reasons, but if all the defense abilities are put in one big roll, then what happens if one defense, such as block, is being reduced by a dual wielder, but your parry ISNT. If you had separate rolls, then you could still have a high parry chance (i.e. the way it was on live) wheras on here, ALL your defense would be reduced. Also, it seems like against parry/shield everyone has warrior level weaponskill on this server; I get constantly hit from the front all the time with a 37block/parry spec with moblock 6 and moparry 6. There is just something simply wrong with that. It's things like this that are causing assassins to unstealth when they see a large shield on a tank, and chase them down, meleeing them down while they retain about 50 percent health with no PA needed. specline defense (block/parry) needs a boost on this server, more than anything I have seen as of yet. When a buffed BM is attacking me, for example, my defense is reduced about the same as when a stealther is attacking, (reduced less, if anything, which is strange since a tank should have much higher weaponskill)
In all honesty, I think this server would be better off with Uthgard's defense design; weaponskill has no influence on anything but damage, then defense would actually be defensive, which is pretty much the whole point. I remember distinctly on the classic 2004 servers at level 49/50 defence tanks would blockblockblockblock against low weaponskill people, and quite frankly that's the way it should be. It's simply not like that at all here, even with defese RAs.

One always needs to regard the fundamental concept that various things in DAOC were designed the way they were for a distinct reason. Tanks aren't particularly tanky in daoc compared to other mmorpgs, because block/parry actually does something in DAOC, besides being a glorified arm decoration. If shields/parry are going to be useless on here, like on a variety of other mmorpgs, then hybrids should get about 50 percent more hitpoints, and heavy/light tanks should get about 75 percent more hitpoints. Here, they are simply stealther food while making their way to the AMG/MMG. If you're going to have stealth tanks, then simply take visible tanks out of the game.

Back in 2010 daoc was slowly devolving into a similar issue in about the best thread I ever read on the subject:

https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/game-is-too-easy-for-casters-and-stealthers-at-50-and-too-hard-for-melees.250247468/

Combining it in a single changes nothing statistically. That means it also properly takes care of the reductions for specific parts.

Begging your pardon, admin gruenesschaf, if that's the case, then why is defense so blatantly deficient on here? If you're saying that your new formula wouldn't make anything less defensive in the hypothetical i gave - why then is defense so.... bad on here, then? Particularly parry/block. Is it some weaponskill issue where everyone is running around with too much weaponskill, or what? I ask this, because I have distinct memories of live. Even if you took out the -25 percent shield penalty, defense would *still* be deficient, because the rates are so fundamentally low, for whatever reason. If I were to take a wild guess.
I would say the reason mythic gave the -50 percent shield block penalty on live is because, shield users had no problems getting shield up to insanely high levels like in the 80-90 percent block rate.... block percentage was able to be increased to such a degree, they ended up putting a 75 percent cap on it, after they fixed the "dual wield halves block" bug. Does this server take into account quality of shield, and item level of the shield? Those were both factors that increased block on live. (I remember reading it in a grab-bag by Sanya) At any rate, I hope things change, because at the moment, you guys have buffed all dual wield much higher than it was on live (without full aug buffs I never remember seeing 175+ mainhand damage from stealthers on a chain wearer), yet defense is literally 10x worse than it was on live, at pretty much any era I can think of that I played in.
What's more is, evade rates seem to stay at about 39 percent unconditionally, no matter who is attacking the assassin, block and parry on the other hand struggle to stay anywhere near 40.
As a tank, if you have around 40 block/parry and moparry/moblock 6 your block rate against a low weaponskill dual wielder ought to be something like 65 -25, and your parry rate ought to be about 50 with no penalty. Against a warrior it should look something like 40 percent (block) 30 percent parry. Instead, on this server when you're fighting assassins, your parry is usually about 25 percent, and your block is like 29 percent.

I was just watching uthgard 2013 videos of a warrior and his group rvring in emain, and the TTK was much higher on uthgard, as it was on live, on the 2004 classic server, people used alot of buff pots/item charges back then and everyone still stayed alive longer, and blocked/parried much more, and just didn't take as much damage from ranged attacks in general. Anyway, all I'm saying is a hope none of the aformentioned mechanics on Phoenix are a fixture, and all this is a work in progress, rather than a final end result.

Don't bother expecting anything positive when they change the code here. In addition, the response will always be (despite any testing you or anyone else does that shows something to the contrary) "we are right and you are wrong."
Sun 28 Apr 2019 8:31 PM by Jimmy0000
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 4:20 PM
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Sun 28 Apr 2019 12:40 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Apr 2019 5:09 PM
Defenses in RvR, aka 8man and zerging, were always incredibly overrated compared to going pure offense. Defensive RAs always outclassed defensive skills such as shield/guard/parry. Before Bodyguard, a tank trying to defend the backline was an exercise in futility. They're better off in the train.

If you feel defense was the way to go, you were a detriment to your group. SImple as that.
--------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
--------------------------------

Let me repeat myself once again, maybe it'll stick this time? I doubt it since you're purposefully ignoring my points, and refusing to address them. Here's what i said for the 3rd time:

"Funny you should mention that because of all the various shieldmasters and armsmercs that have existed.

High defense specs were pretty much king in the original context of my initial post. Furthermore, most people play light tanks, and use dual wield because they want to inflict damage on casters and other less durable people as fast as possible, which is a totally different context to melee vs melee fighting that i was talking about in my first post. I said on this server, defense specced tanks are stealther food... and they are. That simply wasn't the case on live. Defense pretty much was king at various patch eras when you were jumped by stealthers while traveling to a mile gate. Offense specced tanks who had like 28 parry and nothing else were the ones who were meh against stealthers and other tanks."

Where in god's name up above did i mention keeps, 8v8, zergs etc? Why do you keep mentioning things that had nothing whatsoever to do with my original point? In zergs, and in 8v8 as a tank you're not even going to be attacked by anyone until the very last, and if you do then you've probably already lost (in level 50's crappy/imbalanced mechanics, anyway, in the BG's not necessarily, in molvik/thid, for instance you may have still been the last man standing after everyone died)

Funny you should mention keeps though. Having a shield standing on a keep wall, or in front of the keep wall (as an invading force) high shield spec was absolutely necessary, otherwise your healer would be constantly ressing you.

It's also ironic you mention 8v8, i sure wouldn't want to go up against a hib broup with 2h equipped, i would want shield/1h, otherwise i would see nothing but "Your blow has been absorbed by a magical barrier!" even if a cele healer was there, you'd still see that too much with a 2h.

No straw man, didn't mention keeps.

Defenses weren't strong in original DAoC or any point in its history, shield tanks were considered useful only for slam. You're misremembering the game, hard. Tanks didn't fight assassins with shield. They slammed em then hit then with their 2handers. There's no context in which defense tanks were considered strong.

Defenses have never been considered strong in DAoC. The shield tank is attacked last because they don't pose a threat. A minor annoyance until Bodyguard, nothing to ever strategize around. Offense has always been the king of this game for pvp. Your memory is failing you.

"Defenses in RvR, aka 8man and zerging"

I wasn't sure what you meant here by this statement, i think i misunderstood you here, i thought you meant defenses as in using 8man/zergs etc to defend keeps. after re-reading it, you meant 8man and zergining is CALLED RvR. Lol. that's another one, by the way. Here:
--------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

strawman
You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
--------------------------------

I stood for about 30 seconds staring at this particular phrase, the AKA thing threw me off.

Being attacked by stealthers while alone, smallmanning, and soloing are ALL forms of RvR. My original context that you refuse to acknowledge.

Running up to a bard, using the savage "rude gesture" ability to break speed, then using the /rude emote right after is also a form of RvR, just for the record. Not just 8v8, zerging etc.

You're still strawmanning though; my original context had nothing to do with 8v8, or zerging, as stated and no my memory isn't failing, you're simply avoiding the obvious by going on youtube for two seconds checking out defensive solo videos, coming back and saying something like "my bad, you're right sorry about that, defense was good in the context you put forth in your original post"

Lmao, it's not like remembering whether defense was worth a crap on the various servers one played on, in the various patch eras on live, whether or not defense actually worked if you specced for it properly, is a hard thing to remember. Remembering block,block,block,block,block /release when you are fully templated, on either side of the encounter is EXTREMELY easy to remember...

And honestly, you are underrating shield use also in the 8v8 and zerg context you bring up.
Now that you mention that context. I remember keeping casters alive all the time with that block rate. It was basically as if they had shield specced. It allowed me to slam, and they could get off casts while i blocked for them. Granted it didn't always go like that, but thanks for bringing up a context that had nothing to do with my original post, never the less.

Can you not see the futility in arguing with youtube videos, and people who played this game for nearly two decades?

You're not a staff member are you? You act like you're some kind of damage control person trying to convince people of things, and downlplay certain specs. Why do you keep trying to pretend defense is fine on phoenix, and live-like? If it was live-like you'd see stealthers whining and p*ssing about not being able to kill the big guy with the shield. Instead, from stealthers you hear 0 complaints about shield users. If stealther players aren't complaining, you KNOW something is wrong with it bigtime, and it needs to be adjusted till they DO complain about it!

Say it with me. Ready? *inhales*:
Go on youtube, and look up things like "solo warrior, snarf savage, shield champ, melee scout, shield merc, shieldmaster" then come back and say defense was weak on live.

Go on youtube, and look up things like "solo warrior, snarf savage, shield champ, melee scout, shield merc, shieldmaster" then come back and say defense was weak on live.

Go on youtube, and look up things like "solo warrior, snarf savage, shield champ, melee scout, shield merc, shieldmaster" then come back and say defense was weak on live.

*pants*

One last thing:

"The shield tank is attacked last because they don't pose a threat."

You don't say? I always loved people thinking that, so I could apply back snares/slams etc while they tried to chase the shaman. it gave him time to aoe disease, and also time to slam and 2h the caster who was focusing him. Then when the melees finally got to the sham when he was OOP, it was block,block,block,block,block. I had that scenerio play out more times than i care to remember. I even remember some people would get so pissed, they'd stop attacking the sham and start attacking me, lol.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 1:05 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Jimmy I'm really struggling to understand your point here.

DAoC doesn't value pure defense in regards to tanks as other RPG's do. It's not really a big deal. Over whelming offensive is better than strong defense in DAoC. It always has been.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 3:23 PM by Ashenspire
He has no point, and he can't read for shit.

"Defenses in RvR, aka 8man and zerging"

In any kind of RvR content, defenses are trumped by offense. That's what I mean. Relying in your shield or parry or evade skills to turn the tide of a fight in any kind of large scale pvp in this game, ya know, the content the game is balanced around, is a terrible philosophy to have.

Solo youtube videos don't mean shit. You don't see how many times their defenses are useless. No one gonna have a video of themselves getting stomped on. That don't sell.

You use a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing.

I'm sorry you're sad that you can't live the fantasy of blocking all the attacks for everyone In your group all the time. That's not a thing in this game. Never has been until Bodyguard.
Sun 5 May 2019 11:49 PM by Jimmy0000
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 29 Apr 2019 3:23 PM
He has no point, and he can't read for shit.

"Defenses in RvR, aka 8man and zerging"

In any kind of RvR content, defenses are trumped by offense. That's what I mean. Relying in your shield or parry or evade skills to turn the tide of a fight in any kind of large scale pvp in this game, ya know, the content the game is balanced around, is a terrible philosophy to have.

Solo youtube videos don't mean shit. You don't see how many times their defenses are useless. No one gonna have a video of themselves getting stomped on. That don't sell.

You use a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing.

I'm sorry you're sad that you can't live the fantasy of blocking all the attacks for everyone In your group all the time. That's not a thing in this game. Never has been until Bodyguard.

"He has no point, and he can't read for shit."

Your Logical Fallacy Is:
-------------------------------
ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.
-------------------------------

"I'm sorry you're sad that you can't live the fantasy of blocking all the attacks for everyone In your group all the time."

Well, at least you get to live the fantasy on Phoenix that never existed on live, of warriors/thanes/reavers/shieldmasters/armsmercs all being battle bards and clerics with no specline block or parry to speak of!

"Relying in your shield or parry or evade skills to turn the tide of a fight in any kind of large scale pvp in this game, ya know, the content the game is balanced around, is a terrible philosophy to have."

Oh, so you WISH defense had been useless on live, to justify it being useless on here, because you're biased against it, just like the phoenix staff (of which you're probably a member).
No wonder your posts have so much projection in them.
Is your I.Q. room temperature? Or are you honestly telling me that you feel tank defense specs should be crappy, thus defeating the entire purpose of tanks in the first place? It's illogical for defense specs to be crappy. That's why tanks don't exist on this server. Make offense specs crappy then... Make dual wield hit for 25 points of damage a hit with mainhand, and 14 points of damage with offhand, then maybe I'll agree to 25 percent block rates against low WS stealthers. Deal?

"Relying in your insane nuking, and one-shot-crit-shots, stealth tanks that defeat the purpose of a tank, to turn the tide of a fight in any kind of large scale pvp in this game, ya know, the content the game is balanced around, is a terrible philosophy to have."

Fixed it for you. See? I can have bias also. Except my bias is DAOC's bias, whereas your bias is PHOENIX's bias.

On return of reckoning they disabled all OFFENSE specs for tanks! I don't like that, but never the less, they have the exact opposite philosophy of this server. That server revolved around mass scale pvp more than this one does. In the end, opinions are &^$&*($... everyone has one, and they all stink. The best solution, is to quit disabling both offense, and defense specs on tanks, and simply leave them the hell alone, like Mythic intended. They knew their own game(s) far more than any private server staff on any server ever did.

Mythic made the game the way they did for a reason, and to think private server staff would know better than a company that went through what they did to balance daoc the way they did, for as many years as they did, for as long of a beta as the game had, is quite an arrogant presumption, to say the least.

"Solo youtube videos don't mean shit."
Again, the burden of proof is on you, and the Phoenix server, not youtube videos, countless forum posters on live, or me.
They demonstrate that defense was alot better on live, at any point, than on here. Then there's testimonials on forums when people ask "whats good against stealthers" or "how should I spec as a tank"
You couldn't make a video making defense look halfway decent on this server if you tried. What's more is, in alot of the solo videos, (about 90 percent of them) they will have a caption of the RR and opponent they are fighting.

You're making it out like this is debatable, when it's not. Shield tanks would constantly take on multiple stealthers and win. You can't even kill ONE here with a def spec, nevermind two.

I don't know why ash and amp constantly try to post to my threads, in such an unprovoked, sad attempt at damage control, and/or in an attempt to try an convince themselves of the existence of some phantom DAOC version that i wasn't playing for 15 years, where tanks and hybrids were all clerics/bards, with different non-cleric, non=defense abilities, and that people weren't posting on forums about for 20 years, and also doing videos of for 20 years.
Mon 6 May 2019 3:26 PM by Ashenspire
Understand something: that's not a logical fallacy.

I didn't attack you to undermine your argument. Your argument has no basis in reality to begin with.

I made fun of you because you're an easy mark that can't read, are dying on a hill that never existed, and have been making fun of anyone that disagrees with you. The fact that you bring up IQ just screams basement dwelling neck beard.

The reason people call you out so vehemently is because you're full of it. You're spreading misinformation and calling out the devs (of which I'm not a part of) and demanding they turn in this server into some version of the game that never existed.

And I'm gonna say it again so they hear it from the back: cherry picked videos don't mean a damn thing. If that were the case, people would be screaming to nerf Berserkers with the way Nate likes to suck himself off on these boards. A video of a shield tank fitting two unbuffed stealthers means nothing. Nevermind the fact that Shields work better against assassins here, but you do you, I guess.
Mon 6 May 2019 7:25 PM by MyCatKevin
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:20 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:16 PM
I do not understand why this is necessary. Any RNG is subject to streaks. Is this just because people who don't understand the nature of RNGs tend to complain when a streak occurs that is not in their favor?

Yes. Many games basically move away from normal rng for that reason, a well known example would be dota with their PRD (increasing chance on every failure until success then reset to much lower than listed chance, averages out to be the listed chance but with reduced streaks). Another example would be a card system, where all possible solutions are in a bag and every random roll draws a card making that particular card unavailable for subsequent draws until the bag is empty. We're using PRD for crits / procs and since this change the card system for defensive rolls, for most of alpha / beta we used a card bag per defense type for those rolls and since launch it was normal rng (except miss / resist).

I have a question regarding this change. While I understand that overall it doesn't change the % of block/parry/evade etc. in the course of a fight. Does it negatively impact the chance of completing a long style chain?

Previous to this change and given a large pool of data you would likely see block/parry etc spread out throughout a fight.

Whereas now it seems like you'd see it more concentrated to where a long string of hits have gotten through. Making it harder to get a 3 or 4 style chain harder to pull off successfully.

I'm probably looking at this incorrectly, but any clarification would be helpful.
Mon 6 May 2019 7:42 PM by chryso
MyCatKevin wrote: ↑
Mon 6 May 2019 7:25 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:20 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:16 PM
I do not understand why this is necessary. Any RNG is subject to streaks. Is this just because people who don't understand the nature of RNGs tend to complain when a streak occurs that is not in their favor?

Yes. Many games basically move away from normal rng for that reason, a well known example would be dota with their PRD (increasing chance on every failure until success then reset to much lower than listed chance, averages out to be the listed chance but with reduced streaks). Another example would be a card system, where all possible solutions are in a bag and every random roll draws a card making that particular card unavailable for subsequent draws until the bag is empty. We're using PRD for crits / procs and since this change the card system for defensive rolls, for most of alpha / beta we used a card bag per defense type for those rolls and since launch it was normal rng (except miss / resist).

I have a question regarding this change. While I understand that overall it doesn't change the % of block/parry/evade etc. in the course of a fight. Does it negatively impact the chance of completing a long style chain?

Previous to this change and given a large pool of data you would likely see block/parry etc spread out throughout a fight.

Whereas now it seems like you'd see it more concentrated to where a long string of hits have gotten through. Making it harder to get a 3 or 4 style chain harder to pull off successfully.

I'm probably looking at this incorrectly, but any clarification would be helpful.

This is an excellent observation. I believe your theory would be correct.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:00 AM by Jimmy0000
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 6 May 2019 3:26 PM
Understand something: that's not a logical fallacy.

I didn't attack you to undermine your argument. Your argument has no basis in reality to begin with.

I made fun of you because you're an easy mark that can't read, are dying on a hill that never existed, and have been making fun of anyone that disagrees with you. The fact that you bring up IQ just screams basement dwelling neck beard.

The reason people call you out so vehemently is because you're full of it. You're spreading misinformation and calling out the devs (of which I'm not a part of) and demanding they turn in this server into some version of the game that never existed.

And I'm gonna say it again so they hear it from the back: cherry picked videos don't mean a damn thing. If that were the case, people would be screaming to nerf Berserkers with the way Nate likes to suck himself off on these boards. A video of a shield tank fitting two unbuffed stealthers means nothing. Nevermind the fact that Shields work better against assassins here, but you do you, I guess.
--------------------------------
I guess this person who's post you overlooked, is full of it also:
live daoc 2005-2009 playing mostly classic server setting guard was strong enough to keep me as sorc/bard alive and even getting casts out every now and then while being attacked by a 2-3 melee assist train. In solo play shield spec was also extremely strong as long as you did not strafe like mad to hit the shield wearer in the back.
Drominas 50 NS

Dromynchen 50 Hunter

Drominna 50 Reaver

-------------------------------

Lol i guess the scenario i mentioned posts ago was still fantasy huh? About blocking for the shaman, here Drominna is who went through the EXACT same scenario as a sorc! HAH!

So anyway, there's two people, countless NON cherry picked videos, (lol you'll pull out anything to twist your argument won't you? Going on youtube and typing any shield tank class and the word solo will prove my point. That's not cherry picking) two different private servers (uthgard 1.0, and 2.0) and LIVE are on my side, as well as various IGN message board threads from back in the day where tanks are admitting killing MULTIPLE stealthers, nevermind one:
https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/game-is-too-easy-for-casters-and-stealthers-at-50-and-too-hard-for-melees.250247468/

and this "any shield spec" thread:
https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/what-class-is-anti-stealther.250236848/

in the other corner is:
Two willfully ignorant daophoenixers, named Amp and Ash, who currently have their eyes closed, ears covered, and going LALALALALALA at all the evidence i present.

btw:

"I made fun of you because you're an easy mark that can't read"

"neckbeard"
---------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.
----------------------------------

I didn't even realize you were making fun of me till you said it... lol. That just betrays even further how mad you're getting because you know in the back of your mind that YOU'RE full of it. That's why you're accusing me of being full of it. You know in your own mind you lost many posts ago and are avoiding the obvious. You're like one of those people over /advice chat that says the most inaccurate nonsense about daoc, who is promptly corrected via /send to the poor sap who was mislead with inaccurate BS, by someone who actually knows something about daoc.
Tue 7 May 2019 1:11 AM by lurker
Can someone lock this thread already!?!
Tue 7 May 2019 2:10 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:00 AM
I guess this person who's post you overlooked, is full of it also:
live daoc 2005-2009 playing mostly classic server setting guard was strong enough to keep me as sorc/bard alive and even getting casts out every now and then while being attacked by a 2-3 melee assist train. In solo play shield spec was also extremely strong as long as you did not strafe like mad to hit the shield wearer in the back.
Drominas 50 NS

Dromynchen 50 Hunter

Drominna 50 Reaver

-------------------------------

Lol i guess the scenario i mentioned posts ago was still fantasy huh? About blocking for the shaman, here Drominna is who went through the EXACT same scenario as a sorc! HAH!

So anyway, there's two people, countless NON cherry picked videos, (lol you'll pull out anything to twist your argument won't you? Going on youtube and typing any shield tank class and the word solo will prove my point. That's not cherry picking) two different private servers (uthgard 1.0, and 2.0) and LIVE are on my side, as well as various IGN message board threads from back in the day where tanks are admitting killing MULTIPLE stealthers, nevermind one:
https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/game-is-too-easy-for-casters-and-stealthers-at-50-and-too-hard-for-melees.250247468/

and this "any shield spec" thread:
https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/what-class-is-anti-stealther.250236848/

in the other corner is:
Two willfully ignorant daophoenixers, named Amp and Ash, who currently have their eyes closed, ears covered, and going LALALALALALA at all the evidence i present.

btw:

"I made fun of you because you're an easy mark that can't read"

"neckbeard"
---------------------------------
Your Logical Fallacy Is:

ad hominem
You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.
Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.
----------------------------------

I didn't even realize you were making fun of me till you said it... lol. That just betrays even further how mad you're getting because you know in the back of your mind that YOU'RE full of it. That's why you're accusing me of being full of it. You know in your own mind you lost many posts ago and are avoiding the obvious. You're like one of those people over /advice chat that says the most inaccurate nonsense about daoc, who is promptly corrected via /send to the poor sap who was mislead with inaccurate BS, by someone who actually knows something about daoc.

I see you're still hopelessly obsessed with 10-14 year old game mechanics and memories. Best of luck on whatever it is exactly you're trying to do. Most of us don't live in the past.
Tue 7 May 2019 2:34 PM by Ashenspire
Jimmy0000 wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 1:00 AM
*A whole lot of words to say absolutely nothing*

Anecdotes aren't evidence. You've presented the argument therefore it's up to you to prove your case with hard numbers and data. You can't, and won't, but that's how it works. You'd learn that if you made it past the first chapter of the intro to logic text book you're pulling your logical fallacies from.

You're bad at this, man. And if you've just now figured out I've been making fun of you for dying on this hill, your IQ can't be all that high.

(Also, it's only an ad hominem if I'm only attacking you and not your argument and have nothing else to fall back on. I'm going after both, as they're equally bad/dumb)
Tue 7 May 2019 3:10 PM by hellcon
To retract my previous statement. I tested it. DW reduces the block rate by the expected amount & there is not a hardcap of 35%.

I still 'feel' that block rates are too low. I am not sure if dex doesn't work in PVP or the opponent's stats directly counter dex gains or what. With the single account restriction I don't have a way to test it.
Wed 8 May 2019 1:51 AM by HtGeist
Its not that dex dont work,its the fact that assasins got a warrior like defense penetration handed to them,their should be abysmal weaponskill which would allow for more blocks,non existant not factored in.but dex wasent ever great for +% block..difference between a kobold and a troll with shield could be equalized with mob2 and then i think troll would even be ahead..it was for the min/max addicts chasing that extra 1-2%.
Wed 8 May 2019 2:20 AM by Jimmy0000
hellcon wrote: ↑
Tue 7 May 2019 3:10 PM
To retract my previous statement. I tested it. DW reduces the block rate by the expected amount & there is not a hardcap of 35%.

I still 'feel' that block rates are too low. I am not sure if dex doesn't work in PVP or the opponent's stats directly counter dex gains or what. With the single account restriction I don't have a way to test it.

Yeah, i didn't think there was a hardcap of 35 percent, but it's obvious to anyone who played shield tanks throughout daoc's life that the block rates are a joke here. Amp and Ash are obviously unpaid shills for this server, or they're so steeped in wilfull ignorance, or they're arguing just for the sake of arguing, given all the evidence i presented to them, they just keep moving the goalposts; if defense sucked on live, nobody would have made melee scouts and shieldmasters. I just made a shield merc back in 2015 and got him all decked out, and nobody could touch me. Not much point in debating people who avoid the obvious.... so moving onto the debate on WHY the defense here is so much worse than live.

What i'm thinking, is, the way the staff on here reworked defense, combined with all the auxiliary things, like level of shield not mattering, and also the shield quality not mattering, and the weaponskill across the classes must be screwed up here, more evidence of that, is why is it i never see 50 percent evasion from assassins? Not one single time. with all the buffs they have, when i'm buffed, the evade rate on most assassins is about 35-39. when i'm unbuffed , the evade rates are never above about 40. That just doesn't make sense. those two things alone, if they are turned off, could explain what the whole problem is, because i can tell on here block rates are even worse than they were on live back when the 'dual wield halves evade' thing was going. The thing is, shield tanks were balanced around being able to block alot if they spec for it ( a one handed weapon by it's self is laughably low DPS in DAOC and almost impossible to get hasted down to 1.5 seconds unless you're a dual wielder) yet there's no compensation given, like extra hitpoints or anything, and the typical enemies of shield tanks (stealth dual wielders) have been buffed to hell and gone on this server.

What's more is, a defense specced person, should be able to get their shield up to 60 percent block rate, and 50 percent parry, which again, is impossible to do on here, because of some kind of weaponskill issue, or something. Basically, when you fight assassins, it's even worse than if you're fighting a TOA buffed warrior with 160 full aug STR buffs + aug str 9. If this server was functioning like the staff actually says, then you should be able to get block rates up to things like 75-80 etc. before the cap; 75 - 25 percent dual wield penalty is 60..... not 25-35 percent block rate. When fighting dual wielders on here, your block rate should be 60, and parry 50, if you have high levels of moblock/moparry and are buffed. The block rate cap should be calculated after everything else, on this server it seems to be calculated BEFORE everything else. which makes no sense, because under those circumstances, it would be impossible to ever get anywhere close to the block cap in the first place...

Maybe if the shield cap was unlimited like it was in 2002, and/or the block cap was calculated last, I could get behind -25 percent block penalty but not at a pathetically low 60 percent cap calculated BEFORE everything else. If DAOC was designed for defense to be that ineffective, then it would have been designed completely different. To anyone who has played DAOC for nearly two decades, that should go without saying; it would have probably been designed like Warhammer (mythic's next game) where defense specs didn't exist, and the only way to get your block/parry up is through gear and RR abilities, and tanks on Warhammer are a MILLION times more durable than on DAOC. to compensate for block/parry being less effective, and so many undefendable attacks being on there... none of that exists here on DAOC hence why mythic designed defense to be so effective when you spec for it, and spend all your RPs for it.

There's a reason why i always remembered DAOC as being the only mmo i have played where a shield actually means something, as well as parry. In most other mmorpgs, and rpgs, they are just arm decorations. GW2 is a perfect example of this. Taking RNG away from DAOC is the worst thing you could possibly do. It's designed FOR things like RNG defense abilities on a core fundamental level. If you want to take RNG away, then one should design/play a different private server for a different game, rather than one that is specifically designed for RNG dynamics.

Another thing a guy told me, in game, was melee scouts were really effective at the beginning of Phoenix beta, but somewhere along the line, defense was made into a joke.
Have any of you guys seen the videos of melee scouts on youtube on live? One guy just had 29 shield, but quite alot of moblock, and he was holding his own against all kinds of mid-high RR assassins.
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