Tireless + Buffpotions + Paladin Issue

Dear Phoenix Team

As i mentioned in the Suggestionthread will you consider to .......?
+ rework TIreless RA ( 8 sec Penalty to TIck while in Combat and Moving ) .
+ remove Buff/Endupotions or just remove elixir of invigoration.
+ add Second Wind RA if Buff/ Endupotions get removed.

Regards

Mon 23 Jul 2018 11:14 AM by

Uthred

None of these changes are planned. Atm we are focusing on getting this server ready for launch. After that we will have an eye on changes again, first we need to get rid of the bugs.

Tue 24 Jul 2018 11:48 AM by Fiore

Thanks for the fast answer ! I understand that you have a lot of work to do but plz think about it as it may have an huge impact to alb right from the start.

Regards

Tue 24 Jul 2018 12:42 PM by klaggorn

Not trying to be a troll, but this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. More than half the players here would be up in arms if this change took place. Why do you want this? Because you play a pally? Play an armsman and run the things you want to remove. You'll be better for it.

Tue 24 Jul 2018 12:43 PM by relvinian

klaggorn wrote: ↑
Tue 24 Jul 2018 12:42 PM
Not trying to be a troll, but this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. More than half the players here would be up in arms if this change took place. Why do you want this? Because you play a pally? Play an armsman and run the things you want to remove. You'll be better for it.

I think if paladin needs love then give it love. But build it up rather than nerfing others.

Tue 24 Jul 2018 3:09 PM by Bustermann25

Do not nerf pots and realm abilities. Change pally in other ways, they still bring endo for people who dont want to invest in tireless. For solo and small man the pots and tireless investment are of vital importance.

Tue 24 Jul 2018 6:11 PM by Quik

I'm sorry but any time I see someone wanting others nerfed just to make a single class more popular just makes me want that class pushed to the side.

Please don't ask for everyone to be nerfed just because a class you like has issues. Find a fix for your issue not try to ruin the other classes.

Tue 24 Jul 2018 6:30 PM by aso

paly should get something yes, but removing potions or change them is a step in the most wrong direction you can go

Wed 25 Jul 2018 12:13 AM by Fiore

I will play an Armsman cause of the current state of game. But to make an Armsman i need a pala in the first place and thats where the problem starts . No one will invest time in lvling a paladin when the class is condemned to be a pure PVE Endubot . Bard has Buffs and Shaman has Buffs as a second option to take them in a grp and they are vital to a grp. Shaman will also have conc left to buff something else in PVP. As an Albplayer all you can do is to hope for an kind Necromancer player to PL you to lvl 50. It happended on Uthgard and will most likely happen here . I asked for a rework of tireless in the first place ( 8 sec Penallty to tick in Combat and while moving ) cause thats what happened on Genesis later and was on uthgard right from the start. Further on its classic.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 12:21 AM by Quik

Fiore wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Jul 2018 12:13 AM
I will play an Armsman cause of the current state of game. But to make an Armsman i need a pala in the first place and thats where the problem starts . No one will invest time in lvling a paladin when the class is condemned to be a pure PVE Endubot . Bard has Buffs and Shaman has Buffs as a second option to take them in a grp and they are vital to a grp. Shaman will also have conc left to buff something else in PVP. As an Albplayer all you can do is to hope for an kind Necromancer player to PL you to lvl 50. It happended on Uthgard and will most likely happen here . I asked for a rework of tireless in the first place ( 8 sec Penallty to tick in Combat and while moving ) cause thats what happened on Genesis later and was on uthgard right from the start. Further on its classic.

Alb gets screwed on endo buff, but I will say I tried to play a Paladin for a week and got into a group twice. Every time I sent a tell in game to people asking for more I was told they preferred an armsman and I was never invited.

Alb kind of brought this on itself by wanting such perfect setups for simple leveling. I understand it might take a more perfect group for RvR, but in Hib and Mid I was quickly invited whenever people of my lvl range were looking for groups and that includes my SB. On Alb it needed to be a perfect class and people wanted that 5% bonus for different classes.

I would LOVE to play my paladin again but I got tired of looking for a group.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 12:50 AM by Zansobar

Isn't the main problem (in RvR) with the Paladin that it's on a factor 19 damage table compared to a factor 22 for armsmen? That means an armsman does 15% more damage if specced the same? If that's the case why not bump the paladin up to at least factor 20 or perhaps 21?

I know Paladin also doesn't get the same strength raises through leveling as an armsman but that could be the price to pay to get the utility of chants.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 2:12 PM by Magesty

Why does everyone get so defensive about buff potions? Is it fun to have to use potions every time to compete? Feels like an extra and unnecessary step, and it also directly affects class balance on a non-bot server when it doesn’t need to.

They were put in the game originally as a way for people without bots to get a small boost, and hopefully be able to feel like they were competing with buffed players (spoiler: they weren’t). On this server there are no bots. Buff potions shouldn’t exist.

Paladins will always be shit-tier unless their core numbers/abilities are modified. Even if endo pots are removed the class still isn’t going to be “good”, but rather just an unfortunate necessity. I see the 15% less damage weaponskill factor thrown around a lot, but I’m pretty sure their damage is much lower proportionally to an arms or Merc than that.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 2:37 PM by aso

Give paly some extra chant
But if you remove potions its like uthgard Means I stop to play daoc

Wed 25 Jul 2018 2:46 PM by Kralin

I don't get what you guys are saying. I have no problem getting in a group with my Paladin in pve. I've done it on Uthgard and also on Phoenix. The endo/shield/tankiness/heals are very welcome in a pve group. Just like any class, if you can't get a group by advertising /lfg then build your own group.

The Paladin totally has issues in rvr and will have difficulties getting groups over Armsmen/women, but the issue is not pve. What leveling group in pve would not invite Pally (besides pure caster group)?

Also, this issue is nothing new and we shouldn't have to make crazy changes here to make the Paladin more desirable. Every since year 2 of DAOC Live, the Paladin has had issues being desired in rvr. Alb groups either make it work or they tried to compensate with potions and/or buffbots. We should not have to make drastic changes to solve this issue because it is very likely unsolvable. Alb has always been a more difficult realm to build groups in and will probably stay that way for eternity.

All that being said: remember that the Paladin class RA is pretty neat and it's easier not to use potions all the time.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 7:21 PM by Fiore

Reworking Tireless ( Penalty of 8 sec per tick while in combat and moving) is no crazy change its classic (1.65) . It will give the pala and all endu classes a little advantage over the Tireless Ra because their Endu regenerates faster.
That said removing Buff / Endu Potions will in my opinion improve overall Daoc Experience. You dont need to care about if you have Buff / Endupotions in your inventory you just port to the TK and are ready to go. No slowing down of PVP cause some Members of your Grp forgot to buy Potions. RAS will get valorised , every point spend in AUG STR, DEX, CON , ACU, QUICK will pay off more because there are no Buffpotions.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 7:31 PM by Quik

Fiore wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Jul 2018 7:21 PM
Reworking Tireless ( Penalty of 8 sec per tick while in combat and moving) is no crazy change its classic (1.65) . It will give the pala and all endu classes a little advantage over the Tireless Ra because their Endu regenerates faster.
That said removing Buff / Endu Potions will in my opinion improve overall Daoc Experience. You dont need to care about if you have Buff / Endupotions in your inventory you just port to the TK and are ready to go. No slowing down of PVP cause some Members of your Grp forgot to buy Potions. RAS will get valorised , every point spend in AUG STR, DEX, CON , ACU, QUICK will pay off more because there are no Buffpotions.

Other than killing off any solo leveling for melee's you mean...

I am talking about things OTHER then just RvR.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 8:30 PM by Niix

Please don't nerf tireless for every single other class to give Paladin's a purpose...

Change their End chant to be End + end reduction and give them a small 15% celerity... voila Paladins will be in every alb tank group.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 8:35 PM by heardstheword

Yeah, there is zero chance that they would nerf Tireless.

That would nerf leveling for every melee class.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 8:57 PM by sebbo

Rofl yeah, customize a specific class by a celerity chant to make them viable. What a great idea.
Could my hunter have celerity as well, then? I mean, he can just use spear for melee, cant find groups, and spear is soooo slow :/

Just nerf buffpots and you´re ready. Might be possible as well to implement PvE-buffpots that wont work in rvr-zones.

Wed 25 Jul 2018 9:42 PM by Fiore

Quik wrote:
Fiore wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Jul 2018 7:21 PM
Reworking Tireless ( Penalty of 8 sec per tick while in combat and moving) is no crazy change its classic (1.65) . It will give the pala and all endu classes a little advantage over the Tireless Ra because their Endu regenerates faster.
That said removing Buff / Endu Potions will in my opinion improve overall Daoc Experience. You dont need to care about if you have Buff / Endupotions in your inventory you just port to the TK and are ready to go. No slowing down of PVP cause some Members of your Grp forgot to buy Potions. RAS will get valorised , every point spend in AUG STR, DEX, CON , ACU, QUICK will pay off more because there are no Buffpotions.

Other than killing off any solo leveling for melee's you mean...

I am talking about things OTHER then just RvR.

TInders ?

Thu 26 Jul 2018 5:55 AM by Quik

A 5 min tinder and unable to move or you lose it...yeah...

Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:42 AM by Pao

Pala needs cele to be viable.

Nobody will run a Pala with tireless and pots.

Alb needs a bit love anyway. The classes a very strong solo and in smallman pvp but in 8vs8 Albion is very limited in setup variations because all needed things a spread over a lot of different chars.

Thu 26 Jul 2018 11:11 AM by sebbo

Pao wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:42 AM
Pala needs cele to be viable.

Seriously, making a class custom won´t change everything. Customize pala -> nobody will run Armsmen -> Customize Armsmen -> Nobody will run Reaver -> Customize Reaver.

What about other classes then? What about Earthwizards? Wind-Theurgs? Nobody wants to group them for RvR, so what ya gonna do? Customize them as well? If there was no endupots for rvr, weaker tireless, or just weaker endupots for rvr-zones, you would already have a reason to group paladins.

If you start to customize specific classes just because no 8vs8 setgroup will group them, you open the pandora´s box, and will need to customize all other classes as well to re-balance everything.

Thu 26 Jul 2018 11:18 AM by Pao

Think so too. Class design should be untouched.

Just Pala wont be viable under this setting if nothing is done, that will lead to no endu for all Albion level grps.

Albion fucked again... like on Uthgard.

Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:03 PM by Magesty

sebbo wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 11:11 AM
Pao wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 7:42 AM
Pala needs cele to be viable.

Seriously, making a class custom won´t change everything. Customize pala -> nobody will run Armsmen -> Customize Armsmen -> Nobody will run Reaver -> Customize Reaver.

What about other classes then? What about Earthwizards? Wind-Theurgs? Nobody wants to group them for RvR, so what ya gonna do? Customize them as well? If there was no endupots for rvr, weaker tireless, or just weaker endupots for rvr-zones, you would already have a reason to group paladins.

If you start to customize specific classes just because no 8vs8 setgroup will group them, you open the pandora´s box, and will need to customize all other classes as well to re-balance everything.

Classic slippery slope argument.

Wizards and Theurgists both have viable spec lines, and I'd even argue that all three of the Theurgist lines are viable (Air is solid in small man play). The issue with the Paladin is the class as a whole isn't viable. It isn't wanted in 8v8, it isn't wanted in small man, and it isn't viable solo. The class has no value outside of endo chant. Once that is "taken away" via potions and RAs they serve absolutely no purpose.

I don't think adding celerity is the answer either. That is a heavy-handed Mythic style fix, and one they made during an attempt to homogenize the realms/classes because they couldn't handle balancing three unique realms. If the Paladin's power is going to be increased it needs to fall within the bounds of current class design. This means things like increasing base stats/weaponskill, increasing existing chant power/improving chant mechanics, and reviewing their RAs/lack of stoicism. They don't have to be altered to the point where they earn a spot in a cookie cutter 8-man setup, but they should at least feel like a class that can contribute outside of being a slam/endo bot.

Nerfing or removing end regen potions would force Paladins into groups, but it doesn't turn them into a good class-- just a necessary one.

Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:20 PM by heardstheword

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:03 PM
Nerfing or removing end regen potions would force Paladins into groups, but it doesn't turn them into a good class-- just a necessary one.

For sure. That's the double edge sword here.

Plus no/nerfed endo pots really hurts solo/stealther/smallman. I agree that bringing the community down to help 1 class is not the way to go.

To be honest, I doubt anything is changed for them anytime soon, if at all.

Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:30 PM by Magesty

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:20 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:03 PM
Nerfing or removing end regen potions would force Paladins into groups, but it doesn't turn them into a good class-- just a necessary one.

For sure. That's the double edge sword here.

Plus no/nerfed endo pots really hurts solo/stealther/smallman. I agree that bringing the community down to help 1 class is not the way to go.

To be honest, I doubt anything is changed for them anytime soon, if at all.

You're right. I doubt anything will be changed. This is a classic server and balance changes are a very difficult thing to get right. I'd love to see changes for some classes approached cautiously after launch, but the devs have other things to worry about right now.

Fri 27 Jul 2018 5:22 AM by Fiore

Magesty wrote:
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:20 PM
Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Jul 2018 2:03 PM
Nerfing or removing end regen potions would force Paladins into groups, but it doesn't turn them into a good class-- just a necessary one.

For sure. That's the double edge sword here.

Plus no/nerfed endo pots really hurts solo/stealther/smallman. I agree that bringing the community down to help 1 class is not the way to go.

To be honest, I doubt anything is changed for them anytime soon, if at all.

You're right. I doubt anything will be changed. This is a classic server and balance changes are a very difficult thing to get right. I'd love to see changes for some classes approached cautiously after launch, but the devs have other things to worry about right now.

As i said earlier Tireless at current state isnt classic.