Minstrel getting seen by assasins

Is it possible to revert it back to values on WIKI?

That or give Minstrels chance to spec Avoid Pain

Sun 14 Apr 2019 2:48 PM by jelzinga_EU

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:06 PM
Is it possible to revert it back to values on WIKI?

That or give Minstrels chance to spec Avoid Pain

I'm sorry - but I don't see any reasons to give Albion any other buffs, let alone an Alb stealther. By far the best stealther-realm - and you still want more ?

Don't pull the "I'm solo"-card because a solo-minstrel will not stealth unless it is to hide from a passing group - in which case Detect Hidden on assassin is irrelevant. If you solo and stealth and get found by assassins you're not doing it right.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:08 PM by waffel

Why is spelling assassin so difficult for people?

Also, this guy is asking for minstrel stealth to be buffed. A class with speed 5 needs stealth better than archers. Lol.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:23 PM by Lillebror

An SB, NS or Inf can see me from close to 500 units (A mini sees an assassin from 125, basicly same as all the rest of the server even we actually put points in stealth). To compare my dd's is 700 range, heck even my Dot charge is lower range than they can see me from stealth and thats With 50 comp stealth like they have.

this also Count for lower Level players, they still sees you and able to pop you from what feels as miles.

only Counter is Stun run or Sos run since you eat a stealth opner 100% of the time.

Scout, ranger and Hunters got same problem, but they are tiny better off vs them and minstrels (not much) and i find that also really unfair.

An other option could be that Archers and minis got higher stealth detection too. Atleast you didnt have to eat 100% pa/bs's

Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:27 PM by Dariussdars

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:23 PM
An SB, NS or Inf can see me from close to 500 units. to compare my dd's is 700 range, heck even my Dot charge is lower range than they can see me from stealth and thats With 50 comp stealth like they have.

this also Count for lower Level players, they still sees you and able to pop you from what feels as miles.

only Counter is Stun run or Sos run since you eat a stealth opner 100% of the time.

Scout, ranger and Hunters got same problem, but they are tiny better off vs them and minstrels (not much) and i find that also really unfair.

Let me guess, you have like 33 stealth or something? Get composite 50 stealth, then see how easily you are detected. That means you have to give up a lot of your toys in instruments though, or lower your melee spec.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:29 PM by Lillebror

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:27 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:23 PM
An SB, NS or Inf can see me from close to 500 units. to compare my dd's is 700 range, heck even my Dot charge is lower range than they can see me from stealth and thats With 50 comp stealth like they have.

this also Count for lower Level players, they still sees you and able to pop you from what feels as miles.

only Counter is Stun run or Sos run since you eat a stealth opner 100% of the time.

Scout, ranger and Hunters got same problem, but they are tiny better off vs them and minstrels (not much) and i find that also really unfair.

Let me guess, you have like 33 stealth or something? Get composite 50 stealth, then see how easily you are detected. That means you have to give up a lot of your toys in instruments though, or lower your melee spec.

I had 51 comp stealth when i reported the detection range of 480. With that there is no use if the extra Points they see me anyway so i respecced enterily to slash and the cutterspec 33 30 50 as u mention

Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:38 PM by Dariussdars

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:29 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:27 PM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 3:23 PM
An SB, NS or Inf can see me from close to 500 units. to compare my dd's is 700 range, heck even my Dot charge is lower range than they can see me from stealth and thats With 50 comp stealth like they have.

this also Count for lower Level players, they still sees you and able to pop you from what feels as miles.

only Counter is Stun run or Sos run since you eat a stealth opner 100% of the time.

Scout, ranger and Hunters got same problem, but they are tiny better off vs them and minstrels (not much) and i find that also really unfair.

Let me guess, you have like 33 stealth or something? Get composite 50 stealth, then see how easily you are detected. That means you have to give up a lot of your toys in instruments though, or lower your melee spec.

I had 51 comp stealth when i reported the detection range of 480. With that there is no use if the extra Points they see me anyway so i respecced enterily to slash and the cutterspec 33 30 50 as u mention

Sounds like a major issue then, since stealth should be more effective against other stealthers than that.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:51 PM by dbeattie71

Charm purps, stun, mezz, ae mezz, stealth, speed 5, CHAIN (fn chain lol) and access to IP. :O :O :O :O

Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:08 PM by teiloh

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:51 PM
Charm purps, stun, mezz, ae mezz, stealth, speed 5, CHAIN (fn chain lol) and access to IP. :O :O :O :O

LMK when you see a Minstrel that stealths with a purple pet.

LMK when you see a Minstrel pull off an AE Mez on people that aren't ****** ******ed.

Thanks!

PA, Stun, Casted DD, Instant DD, Disease, Snare Poison, 1.1 GR styles, anytime snare spam, Dual Wield, EVADE 7 (fn evade 7 lol) and access to Vanish. :O :O :O :O

Clearly Assassins are also overpowered!

Sun 14 Apr 2019 10:12 PM by dbeattie71

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:08 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:51 PM
Charm purps, stun, mezz, ae mezz, stealth, speed 5, CHAIN (fn chain lol) and access to IP. :O :O :O :O

LMK when you see a Minstrel that stealths with a purple pet.

LMK when you see a Minstrel pull off an AE Mez on people that aren't ****** ******ed.

Thanks!

PA, Stun, Casted DD, Instant DD, Disease, Snare Poison, 1.1 GR styles, anytime snare spam, Dual Wield, EVADE 7 (fn evade 7 lol) and access to Vanish. :O :O :O :O

Clearly Assassins are also overpowered!

Yeah, they should be able to stealth with pet, have insta ae mezz and wear plate.

Sun 14 Apr 2019 10:23 PM by Quik

dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 10:12 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 8:08 PM
dbeattie71 wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Apr 2019 6:51 PM
Charm purps, stun, mezz, ae mezz, stealth, speed 5, CHAIN (fn chain lol) and access to IP. :O :O :O :O

LMK when you see a Minstrel that stealths with a purple pet.

LMK when you see a Minstrel pull off an AE Mez on people that aren't ****** ******ed.

Thanks!

PA, Stun, Casted DD, Instant DD, Disease, Snare Poison, 1.1 GR styles, anytime snare spam, Dual Wield, EVADE 7 (fn evade 7 lol) and access to Vanish. :O :O :O :O

Clearly Assassins are also overpowered!

Yeah, they should be able to stealth with pet, have insta ae mezz and wear plate.

Well duh! Minstrels just can't compete with their current set of tools, and I am wondering why people think minstrels SHOULD see assassins before being seen, if that was the case assassins would lose every single time, of course that's probably what they want.

Mon 15 Apr 2019 2:16 AM by Frieza

minstrel stealth should be less than an archer. They are there for bait and thats it.

However one thing you all miss, Alb is the stealther realm. Hib have casters, mid has melee and i see the same type of arguments on all before you say the OPs argument is invalid (although i disagree its fair to say alb should have an advantage in stealther over other realms, and maybe that is the mins class in itself?).

Mon 15 Apr 2019 2:58 AM by qq6

Was there an official stealth change i missed?

Mon 15 Apr 2019 5:55 AM by Sepplord

assassin detection onto minstrels isn't 500units...
if it is, that'S a bug

no need to advocate for a change then, just for a bugfix

I doubt that to be true though, i haven't seen a lvl50 minstrel that far

Mon 15 Apr 2019 11:04 AM by Lillebror

Well duh! Minstrels just can't compete with their current set of tools, and I am wondering why people think minstrels SHOULD see assassins before being seen, if that was the case assassins would lose every single time, of course that's probably what they want.

Do a groundset 480 and do a groundset 125, a Assassin can see a mini x4 what they can be spotted back. 480 is a huge distance.
They both put the same amount of points into stealth, i got no truble with WIKI numbers or that it should be easy to spot if you go with my "cutter spec" (not comp 50 stealth, but if you gimp your self in melee the reward should be better than been spotted at 480 units away. Also any class can see any stealther at 125. why do not minstrels became rewarded for there points into stealth to detect other stealth classes, Assassins get the big bone while Archers suck tiny less than minis.
Atleast with old RA's Archers had a True sight every 30min so they had the jump atleast now and then. Atm Archers and Minstrels are just food.

Also stun (Scout and Minstrel) mezz Minstrel would have been a good out of jail card with old Ra's , Hunters and Rangers is out of luck sorry...

I try to find info on when the change came from 250 to 480 units (since WIKI state 250 units for Assassins to see Minstrels)

I found out when they changed the stealth detection:
2018-10-15 Monday
•there might be a very minor degradation in the case of less than 16 people near each other
•Stealth detection has changed
•speed of detector is no longer substracted from range, instead the range is divided depending on speed (net result: increased detection range with speed compared to before this update)
•minstrels no longer have any bonus stealth detection
•huge improvement when more than 16 people are near each other
•Friend list has been temporarily disabled
•detector stealth status no longer influences detection range
•Character position update handling has changed
•assassins detect minstrels from further away
•archers detect minstrels from further away
•archers detect assassins from slightly further away
•archers detect archers from slightly further away

Mon 15 Apr 2019 11:08 AM by Lillebror

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Apr 2019 5:55 AM
assassin detection onto minstrels isn't 500units...
if it is, that'S a bug

no need to advocate for a change then, just for a bugfix

I doubt that to be true though, i haven't seen a lvl50 minstrel that far

I rolled a thrust mini and gimped my thrust to have 50 comp stealth after reading stealth detection on wiki (http://playphoenix.wiki/stealth-changes), i was willing to take that sacrifise for been hard to see 90% of my dps is DD's after all.
My inf buddy could see me from 480 units, i reported it into tracker (me haveing comp 51 he 50 stealth)
answer i got was working as intended, case closed.

Mon 15 Apr 2019 7:45 PM by Tillbeast

You can fix this easily. Minstrels should never have stealth ( a lot of other things too) remove it from them and reduce skill train points accordingly. You are suppose to be a jack of all trades master of none. Equal stealth so you can stay unseen and cast insta crowd control without risk of being seen is a bit broken, don't you think? You are already the best class by a country mile in the game and a severe nerf is needed yet you want buffs. Stealth is suppose to be an option for a minstrel unlike the assassin and archer who relies on it far more you. I would swap speed 5 any time on my hunter for stealth every day of the week.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 12:07 AM by waffel

Chain armor, speed 5, stealth with climb walls, charm red pets, SoS escape tool.

Still not enough, minstrels might die sometimes, better give them vanish.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 12:33 AM by Leandrys

What about insta ae disease and debuff SC ? Could be nice to kite full groups of tanks, right ?

And ae bolts, like banshee, for clothies. Having sometimes to enter melee mode is annoying, if only they had a red/purp pet to clean most clothies without even entering melee mode.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 2:25 AM by Frieza

this is getting a little out of hand.....

Mins are the best or close to the best due to skill, there are bad/lazy mins out there!

I for example never run with a pet as i hate twisting.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 6:48 AM by Lillebror

Minstrel is a good class, i got no problem with that.

You guys that dont want mintrels to get buffs what classes do you play?
@Waffel, Leandrys and Tillbeast

Even my 33+15 stealth work good enough for visuals, heck i can even live with the archer detection range it seems.
But Assassins do not see an Minstrel from far away, its closer to a homing beaken from another planet.
And for god sake, change the WIKI so ppl dont get the assumsion that assassins see minstrels from 250 where close to doble range is the fact.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 6:59 AM by Druth

Minstrel is the most popular alb class, for a reason and not just being stapple in groups because clerics are far down the list.

Accept your few weaknesses, assssazzzinzzes (did I spell it right?) and skalds.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 7:04 AM by Lillebror

Champions, VW, Skalds, Thanes Assassins and all the classes that take 10min with dd kiteing to kill. We play on Phoenix not Uthgard

Tue 16 Apr 2019 12:24 PM by Tillbeast

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Apr 2019 6:48 AM
Minstrel is a good class, i got no problem with that.

You guys that dont want mintrels to get buffs what classes do you play?
@Waffel, Leandrys and Tillbeast

Even my 33+15 stealth work good enough for visuals, heck i can even live with the archer detection range it seems.
But Assassins do not see an Minstrel from far away, its closer to a homing beaken from another planet.
And for god sake, change the WIKI so ppl dont get the assumsion that assassins see minstrels from 250 where close to doble range is the fact.

I play several classes both stealth, melee and caster. Minstrels should never have had stealth nor chain nor able to charm red pets so any stealth,chain armour and red pets are a buff. Any removal of these abilities or reduction in affect is a fix not a nerf.

Tue 16 Apr 2019 12:32 PM by Lillebror

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Apr 2019 12:24 PM
I play several classes both stealth, melee and caster. Minstrels should never have had stealth nor chain nor able to charm red pets so any stealth,chain armour and red pets are a buff. Any removal of these abilities or reduction in affect is a fix not a nerf.

Think you should play one

Tue 16 Apr 2019 1:16 PM by Tillbeast

Had a rr5.6 one back on old live servers. Class has no weakness, it has an out to virtually ever situation and can't think of any class that can reliably kill a minstrel in a 1 vs 1. Even if your seen at 500 units unless you get one shotted you still going to win. Class is too good.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 5:54 AM by Lillebror

Just make one here, and tell me again.

Should be a lot better today after the pet change.
But then again its not DPS that is the huge thing for me, its the fact that an Assassin see me from 480 units

Let Archers and Assassins see each other equal and they see us Minstrels tiny better than we see them

Wed 17 Apr 2019 8:19 AM by Ceen

Remove stealth from minstrels, problem solved

Wed 17 Apr 2019 8:20 AM by Lillebror

Ceen wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 8:19 AM
Remove stealth from minstrels, problem solved

Will improve my melee dps atleast

Wed 17 Apr 2019 8:59 AM by jelzinga_EU

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Apr 2019 6:48 AM
Minstrel is a good class, i got no problem with that.

You guys that dont want mintrels to get buffs what classes do you play?
@Waffel, Leandrys and Tillbeast

Even my 33+15 stealth work good enough for visuals, heck i can even live with the archer detection range it seems.
But Assassins do not see an Minstrel from far away, its closer to a homing beaken from another planet.
And for god sake, change the WIKI so ppl dont get the assumsion that assassins see minstrels from 250 where close to doble range is the fact.

You make it sound like assassins can see you from "miles" while in practice it is less than your DD-range. A lot of minstrels do not go composite 50 Stealth which means your stealth is less than optimal.

One problem is that minstrels often go 50 Instruments, 29 Slash, 33 Stealth. Do not expect to be any good in melee. Stealth means no pet, means you rely on 29 Slash and insta-DD's to do something. There is a reason why that doesn't work.

Solo-minstrel: Grab a pet, spec lower stealth (if any at all) and you will do fine.

If you want to do well as stealth, get a stealth-group. A solo-minstrel with stealth is just (almost) free RP's - it has nothing to do with detection-range or anything. Sure you might get a win occassionally with purge, IP and SOS with 50/33/29-spec against other stealthers, but it is not the norm. Once you start grouping as minstrel you become a real powerhouse - since your class offers literally everything which is OP in small/stealth-wars: CC (insta-stun, flute mezz), heals (AM), kiting (SOS), Defense (ablative) and speed.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 10:01 AM by Lillebror

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 8:59 AM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Tue 16 Apr 2019 6:48 AM
Minstrel is a good class, i got no problem with that.

You guys that dont want mintrels to get buffs what classes do you play?
@Waffel, Leandrys and Tillbeast

Even my 33+15 stealth work good enough for visuals, heck i can even live with the archer detection range it seems.
But Assassins do not see an Minstrel from far away, its closer to a homing beaken from another planet.
And for god sake, change the WIKI so ppl dont get the assumsion that assassins see minstrels from 250 where close to doble range is the fact.

You make it sound like assassins can see you from "miles" while in practice it is less than your DD-range. A lot of minstrels do not go composite 50 Stealth which means your stealth is less than optimal.

One problem is that minstrels often go 50 Instruments, 29 Slash, 33 Stealth. Do not expect to be any good in melee. Stealth means no pet, means you rely on 29 Slash and insta-DD's to do something. There is a reason why that doesn't work.

Solo-minstrel: Grab a pet, spec lower stealth (if any at all) and you will do fine.

If you want to do well as stealth, get a stealth-group. A solo-minstrel with stealth is just (almost) free RP's - it has nothing to do with detection-range or anything. Sure you might get a win occassionally with purge, IP and SOS with 50/33/29-spec against other stealthers, but it is not the norm. Once you start grouping as minstrel you become a real powerhouse - since your class offers literally everything which is OP in small/stealth-wars: CC (insta-stun, flute mezz), heals (AM), kiting (SOS), Defense (ablative) and speed.

I had comp 51 stealth and that made inf see me from 480, i respecced (what was the point gimping melee to get comp stealth if they see me from 480)
My DD's got 700 units range, 44 thrust spec (8 stealth i think) is only spec i can see worth doing except the 33-30-50 slash spec.
You hit harder with that slash spec than with teh thrust spec, since first style in the thrust combo is a detaunt its same as a auto hit dps wise. only benefit is that the 44 follow up got a 27s snare witch is very good. but you need to land both on a target. Vs an assassin with close to 50% evade and thats before your debuffed.

the tools you got vs assassins is stun/sos (gotta purge the disease if applyed)
and you gotta dd kite the assassin while not letting him into stealth again. witch sometimes can be rough to build up kite distance due to speed chant is same timer as restealth. A good assassin put first disease on you, witch forces a SoS or Purge, In melee your toast no matter what.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 11:37 AM by Tillbeast

Problem with a lot of minstrel players they think there class should be able to melee like an skald, stealth like an assassin/archer and have the cc ability of a primary crowd control class. Class was never suppose to work like that, what you have is a class that has an awful lot of utility in one package but not specialising in one. Making the class's ability on par with a specialised class is too powerful, any ability be it stealth, its melee potential etc. The minstrel has very few natural enemies that have a strong game vs the minstrel, a minstrel who does not go down the stealth route is safe from assassins as they are too mobile to pick up and any archer who shoots a minstrel will have a red pet onto him pronto. However a minstrel that plays the solo stealth game suddenly has an issue, no pet and others detect him easier than they detect others. The key thing here is the word "solo". Minstrels are the best by miles solo class when visible but there class abilities are much better suited for supporting other stealthers when they spec stealth too. A solo minstrel is easily spotted and therefore is going to get constantly crit shotted by archers and PA'd by assassins that you have difficulty detecting. Congratulations you have discovered a weakness in your class, I guess its come as a surprise to you. Stick a minstrel in a 3 man stealthier team and see just how broken the class is in the stealth team. How easy is it land a PA on a mezzed or a stunned opponent. Basically a minstrel is great (even needing nerfs) in solo visible play and is really good in both visible and stealth teams. However it is not great in solo stealth but you cant be good at everything.

My rr5.6 minstrel would eat sbs and ns even without having composite 50 stealth. Yeah they would see me and land a PA on me but would be dead by my yellow pets sometimes without even needed to purge or before stun wore off.....that yellow pet happened to be a rr8 infilitrator and rr9 scout using me as bait.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 11:45 AM by Sepplord

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 11:37 AM
...

well said, good summary

your comment also made me realise once again how strong minstrels are...The sheer fact that they are very good/decent in so many playstyles zerg / grouped visible AND stealth / Solo-visible while most other classes only shine in one OR the other department makes them a very attractive class.
Mindboggling that some Minstrels want even more

Wed 17 Apr 2019 12:09 PM by Lillebror

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 11:37 AM
Problem with a lot of minstrel players they think there class should be able to melee like an skald, stealth like an assassin/archer and have the cc ability of a primary crowd control class. Class was never suppose to work like that, what you have is a class that has an awful lot of utility in one package but not specialising in one. Making the class's ability on par with a specialised class is too powerful, any ability be it stealth, its melee potential etc. The minstrel has very few natural enemies that have a strong game vs the minstrel, a minstrel who does not go down the stealth route is safe from assassins as they are too mobile to pick up and any archer who shoots a minstrel will have a red pet onto him pronto. However a minstrel that plays the solo stealth game suddenly has an issue, no pet and others detect him easier than they detect others. The key thing here is the word "solo". Minstrels are the best by miles solo class when visible but there class abilities are much better suited for supporting other stealthers when they spec stealth too. A solo minstrel is easily spotted and therefore is going to get constantly crit shotted by archers and PA'd by assassins that you have difficulty detecting. Congratulations you have discovered a weakness in your class, I guess its come as a surprise to you. Stick a minstrel in a 3 man stealthier team and see just how broken the class is in the stealth team. How easy is it land a PA on a mezzed or a stunned opponent. Basically a minstrel is great (even needing nerfs) in solo visible play and is really good in both visible and stealth teams. However it is not great in solo stealth but you cant be good at everything.

My rr5.6 minstrel would eat sbs and ns even without having composite 50 stealth. Yeah they would see me and land a PA on me but would be dead by my yellow pets sometimes without even needed to purge or before stun wore off.....that yellow pet happened to be a rr8 infilitrator and rr9 scout using me as bait.

I often have a yellow pet called xxxx that is a Inf, so i know what my class can do if it all is on my terms.

But where do you see me ask for any of this? "hit like a Skald, mezz like a main cc'r or stealth like an Assassin. (if i whine about anything its Assassins stealth detection and this Insane annoying insta amnisia from Bards and Animist pets not dieing when owner does.

Many times i have hit for all the way down to 30ish pr melee swing (i had my fastest sword from running fg and i bet they had AF charge and gotta have that BD absorb buff, like we can have from our necro) or you insta stun a det9 tank and he hit you again before you turn and pull out the drum to get away. I dont ask for any of this.

All i ask for is a redused stealth detection vs my class from assassins if both classes invest into comp50 stealth. Heck i feel sorry even for Archers in that compartment too. With passives as they are here they should have been equal to eachother detection wise.

Atm i have only 33+15 stealth and i got no truble that i get spottet from a distance but if i invest to comp 50 i think the field should be more equal (still favor assassin)
Think this picture of Assassins and Archers should see Minstrels from far away comes from Minstrels couldnt get MoS.

I use 560 spec points into stealth on a class with 1.5pt multiplier and my class get same detection as all other visuals that uses zip zero nada points.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 12:34 PM by Tillbeast

But a visible can be seen anywhere...if your 1000 units away no one can see you if you spec into stealth. Stealth is an option for you, it should never ever be as close to the use and effect of archers and assassins stealth. Stealth is probably the weakest line in a minstrels locker. Your stealth is not there to detect other stealthers its there so when you spec reasonable high in stealth you can stand at your max range and insta cc vs visibles for your team mates to kill. If in mean time Mr Shadowblade is in the area and sees a stealthed minstrel he might take the bait for the minstrels mates to take advantage or he's got lucky finding a solo minstrel.

Also minstrels don't need huge detection ranges....how far away does it take you to press hit nearest enemy button then insta cc it. The increased detection range assassins and archers get is so they can position themselves. Be honest a good minstrel will not have anything targeted so when archer shoots him he presses there insta cc button and interrupts archer. A good minstrel with good reactions and clever keybinds can cc the assassin before they land a PA.

I am not aimed the criticism solely at yourself but a lot of minstrels think there class should be able to perform as good as other classes in there specialties. The obvious fact is minstrels need nerfing if anything, especially their pet (blue con only IMO as its sorcs and casters specialty to charm).

Oh and trust me the stealth detection rules for archers are 100 times worse simple because they don't see them till to late and have less escape tools than a minstrel...give me minstrel stealth rules and minstrels insta cc and sos and you can have my hunters stealth rules and RA's (pick anything relevant) and hunter is a specialised stealth class not a minstrel.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 12:51 PM by Lillebror

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 12:34 PM
But a visible can be seen anywhere...if your 1000 units away no one can see you if you spec into stealth. Stealth is an option for you, it should never ever be as close to the use and effect of archers and assassins stealth. Stealth is probably the weakest line in a minstrels locker. Your stealth is not there to detect other stealthers its there so when you spec reasonable high in stealth you can stand at your max range and insta cc vs visibles for your team mates to kill. If in mean time Mr Shadowblade is in the area and sees a stealthed minstrel he might take the bait for the minstrels mates to take advantage or he's got lucky finding a solo minstrel.

Also minstrels don't need huge detection ranges....how far away does it take you to press hit nearest enemy button then insta cc it. The increased detection range assassins and archers get is so they can position themselves. Be honest a good minstrel will not have anything targeted so when archer shoots him he presses there insta cc button and interrupts archer. A good minstrel with good reactions and clever keybinds can cc the assassin before they land a PA.

I am not aimed the criticism solely at yourself but a lot of minstrels think there class should be able to perform as good as other classes in there specialties. The obvious fact is minstrels need nerfing if anything, especially their pet (blue con only IMO as its sorcs and casters specialty to charm).

Oh and trust me the stealth detection rules for archers are 100 times worse simple because they don't see them till to late and have less escape tools than a minstrel...give me minstrel stealth rules and minstrels insta cc and sos and you can have my hunters stealth rules and RA's (pick anything relevant) and hunter is a specialised stealth class not a minstrel.

Your best post so far! I agree. i dont need to be an Assassin stealth wise, but cmon 480 (both is comp 50, i was even 50) its a lot. When beta started Wiki had Assassins see Minstrels at 250Units, at the double length of Minstrels seeing them. I can spam nearest target and still be PA'd due to stealth is a pulse and i see them at 125 Units. with qbinds i get get the insta stun off before CD lands,
Please do a /groundset 125 and a 480 ingame and you will see how far that actually is. An Assassin camping a gate cant miss a passing Minstrel what so ever.
I have at 2 occations used stealth lore to find Assassins i know about and i get a 250unit range my self. Then i can start a fight with out adding or eating a PA first

As is now i think the stealth detection is so bad for Archers that i would not even think about wasting time rolling one.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 1:33 PM by Tillbeast

You are trying to play the solo stealth game with a class completely unsuited to the solo stealth game. As I said I played a rr5.6 minstrel on live years ago. My spec was 39 Thrust 43 Instruments 33 Stealth or something similar to that...its been 15 years ago. I sucked in the solo game, lacked the outright dps, was detected easier than I detected. Ok hard to kill...purge and SoS is great get out of jail free card but is costly and you had to then revert to the kite kill method which is so slow without a pet unless there was one close. It was more efficient to play the standard red pet spec solo than the stealth solo version. Basically not as good in the solo game as either an archer nor an assassin. However that spec was perfect for what a minstrel with stealth is suppose to do...support. I can stand back from mile gates etc with my specialised stealthier mates in front of me and the visible characters would not see a minstrel with 33+16 stealth sitting at max cc range until it was too late. More importantly my weakness of only having 33+16 stealth was offset by anything that saw through my stealth had to deal with my buddies between me and them, whilst being hit by a barrage of cc and instants. This is why mids and hibs hate alb stealth groups...its not the inf nor the scout.

You are not happy at getting spotted from miles away and I can understand that but you are supposed to be spotted from miles away by speciality classes. Speccing 33 points into stealth will keep you hidden from visible players eyes but you will stick out like a sore thumb to a class designed to spot stealthers...assassins primarily and also archers. A minstrel stealth detection is not much better than a visibles. Some lines are not worth speccing to 50. Trying to recall I may even dropped my minstrels stealth to 30+16 just to give me more melee damage. An assassin is suppose to spot a minstrel coming through a milegate from miles range with no chance of missing them and they will also spot an archer when they have passed a bit further the milegate. Not seeing an assassin till 125 units is a major hazard that both archers and minstrels have but minstrels have more escape toys than an archer.

Buffing a class that many believe (include myself) is already in need of nerfs is a risk. Minstrels already dominate the solo visible rvr it would be unwise to risk that they become too powerful (by being harder to be spotted) in the stealth game either. I think its just a case of accepting this is one area of the game you are the hunted not the hunter

Wed 17 Apr 2019 3:13 PM by Lillebror

A pet minstrel and a stealth minstrel is two diffrent chars. And a red pet you need about rr 5-6 to hold ok.

A minstrel Get no stealth detection from stealth at all. They Get same as visuals.

I live fine with seeing the assassin from 125 why cant the assassins be ok seeing me from 300 or so. Atm they see us from 480 if they stealth lore thats another 250. Thats Even longer than my dd range.

Given most minstrels got same spec as i have atm 33, 30, 50 the detection is even 50 units more or so. But thats oki, because thats something your choice

But i guess i should just give a damn about stealth minstrel and go with a pet

Wed 17 Apr 2019 5:03 PM by Tillbeast

Assassins see minstrels and archers at 250....archers see minstrels at 125....minstrels see archers at 125.....everything including minstrels sees assassins at 125. This is taking into account 50 composite stealth. Lag etc may also mess with it also. If you have 33 stealth you need +17 to your skills so you need to be rr7 (+6) and full template (+11) to have composite 50. Composite 49 or 48 is quite a difference. My sb with 37+14 spotted my guild member hunter with 38+10 from a distant considerably more than 250...prob closer to 400. A good option is to spec 40+11 plus rr to help avoid PA etc, they will still see you but if moving they will not keep up. However you would have to reduce something to compensate, I did with my hunter but switched back to 37+14 and accepted assassins going to find me.

Wed 17 Apr 2019 6:46 PM by moe_Jiller

I bring nothing to the table but this simple question: How many counter-arguments do this Thread need until you realize that buffing minstrel in any way is a bad idea?

Wed 17 Apr 2019 9:10 PM by Lillebror

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 5:03 PM
Assassins see minstrels and archers at 250....archers see minstrels at 125...

How many times do i have to write it?

Here is the thing, assassins havent seen minstrels from 250 since beta 15.10.18

Patch update 151018:
there might be a very minor degradation in the case of less than 16 people near each other
Stealth detection has changed
speed of detector is no longer substracted from range, instead the range is divided depending on speed (net result: increased detection range with speed compared to before this update)
minstrels no longer have any bonus stealth detection
huge improvement when more than 16 people are near each other
Friend list has been temporarily disabled
detector stealth status no longer influences detection range
Character position update handling has changed
assassins detect minstrels from further away
archers detect minstrels from further away
archers detect assassins from slightly further away
archers detect archers from slightly further away

From then they see a mini with same 50 comp stealth from 480!!!! units Archers is incresed to see minstrel little better than they see them, im fine with that.
Assassins sees a minstrel from almost x4 times the range they get spotted back.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:21 AM by Tillbeast

Lillebror wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 9:10 PM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 5:03 PM
Assassins see minstrels and archers at 250....archers see minstrels at 125...
How many times do i have to write it?

Here is the thing, assassins havent seen minstrels from 250 since beta 15.10.18

Patch update 151018:
there might be a very minor degradation in the case of less than 16 people near each other
Stealth detection has changed
speed of detector is no longer substracted from range, instead the range is divided depending on speed (net result: increased detection range with speed compared to before this update)
minstrels no longer have any bonus stealth detection
huge improvement when more than 16 people are near each other
Friend list has been temporarily disabled
detector stealth status no longer influences detection range
Character position update handling has changed
assassins detect minstrels from further away
archers detect minstrels from further away
archers detect assassins from slightly further away
archers detect archers from slightly further away

From then they see a mini with same 50 comp stealth from 480!!!! units Archers is incresed to see minstrel little better than they see them, im fine with that.
Assassins sees a minstrel from almost x4 times the range they get spotted back.

So its working as intended? Sorry but it sounds to me that you want to be able to see assassins at a range where they can't attack you and are easy targets for your instant CC and therefore basically free rps for a minstrel. Minstrel should not nor are given bonus's to stealth detection because you are not a true stealth class, its an option your class has along with the 101 different tools you have. The only way you can make what you want fair is to make stealthers who are targeted immune to spells whilst stealthed which will never happen. A solo minstrel is a sitting duck to an assassin and it is how it should be. An archer still will always have difficulty beating a solo minstrel simple because they easily interrupt there archery and they lack the burst dps of an assassin. So you are weak to assassins. Again congratulations you found 1 class in its ideal circumstance that you don't have a huge advantage over that a minstrel has against every other single class in the game...is only being better than 99% of the other class's in game not enough?

Also at end of day if you give minstrels the same ability to detect stealthers as other stealthers it brings there instant cc into play which is game breaking in the stealth game. You may want it to so you can avoid assassins but that's not what would happen in game. An assassin/archer would get spotted at say 100 units and just get popped out of stealth with instant cc and then they are as good as dead. Stealth is an option for minstrels so they can stay hidden from visibles and prey on them, it is not their key tool (unlike assassins and archers) who rely on it.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:32 AM by Tillbeast

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:21 AM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 9:10 PM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 5:03 PM
Assassins see minstrels and archers at 250....archers see minstrels at 125...
How many times do i have to write it?

Here is the thing, assassins havent seen minstrels from 250 since beta 15.10.18

Patch update 151018:
there might be a very minor degradation in the case of less than 16 people near each other
Stealth detection has changed
speed of detector is no longer substracted from range, instead the range is divided depending on speed (net result: increased detection range with speed compared to before this update)
minstrels no longer have any bonus stealth detection
huge improvement when more than 16 people are near each other
Friend list has been temporarily disabled
detector stealth status no longer influences detection range
Character position update handling has changed
assassins detect minstrels from further away
archers detect minstrels from further away
archers detect assassins from slightly further away
archers detect archers from slightly further away

From then they see a mini with same 50 comp stealth from 480!!!! units Archers is incresed to see minstrel little better than they see them, im fine with that.
Assassins sees a minstrel from almost x4 times the range they get spotted back.

So its working as intended? Sorry but it sounds to me that you want to be able to see assassins at a range where they can't attack you and are easy targets for your instant CC and therefore basically free rps for a minstrel. Minstrel should not nor are given bonus's to stealth detection because you are not a true stealth class, its an option your class has along with the 101 different tools you have. The only way you can make what you want fair is to make stealthers who are targeted immune to spells whilst stealthed which will never happen. A solo minstrel is a sitting duck to an assassin and it is how it should be. An archer still will always have difficulty beating a solo minstrel simple because they easily interrupt there archery and they lack the burst dps of an assassin. So you are weak to assassins. Again congratulations you found 1 class in its ideal circumstance that you don't have a huge advantage over that a minstrel has against every other single class in the game...is only being better than 99% of the other class's in game not enough?

Also at end of day if you give minstrels the same ability to detect stealthers as other stealthers it brings there instant cc into play which is game breaking in the stealth game. You may want it to so you can avoid assassins but that's not what would happen in game. An assassin/archer would get spotted at say 100 units and just get popped out of stealth with instant cc and then they are as good as dead. Stealth is an option for minstrels so they can stay hidden from visibles and prey on them, it is not their key tool (unlike assassins and archers) who rely on it. Out of interest what range do you think minstrels spot an assassin if you had the choice?

Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:32 AM by Tillbeast

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:32 AM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Apr 2019 8:21 AM
Lillebror wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Apr 2019 9:10 PM
How many times do i have to write it?

Here is the thing, assassins havent seen minstrels from 250 since beta 15.10.18

Patch update 151018:
there might be a very minor degradation in the case of less than 16 people near each other
Stealth detection has changed
speed of detector is no longer substracted from range, instead the range is divided depending on speed (net result: increased detection range with speed compared to before this update)
minstrels no longer have any bonus stealth detection.....
huge improvement when more than 16 people are near each other
Friend list has been temporarily disabled
detector stealth status no longer influences detection range
Character position update handling has changed
assassins detect minstrels from further away
archers detect minstrels from further away
archers detect assassins from slightly further away
archers detect archers from slightly further away

From then they see a mini with same 50 comp stealth from 480!!!! units Archers is incresed to see minstrel little better than they see them, im fine with that.
Assassins sees a minstrel from almost x4 times the range they get spotted back.

So its working as intended? Sorry but it sounds to me that you want to be able to see assassins at a range where they can't attack you and are easy targets for your instant CC and therefore basically free rps for a minstrel. Minstrel should not nor are given bonus's to stealth detection because you are not a true stealth class, its an option your class has along with the 101 different tools you have. The only way you can make what you want fair is to make stealthers who are targeted immune to spells whilst stealthed which will never happen. A solo minstrel is a sitting duck to an assassin and it is how it should be. An archer still will always have difficulty beating a solo minstrel simple because they easily interrupt there archery and they lack the burst dps of an assassin. So you are weak to assassins. Again congratulations you found 1 class in its ideal circumstance that you don't have a huge advantage over that a minstrel has against every other single class in the game...is only being better than 99% of the other class's in game not enough?

Also at end of day if you give minstrels the same ability to detect stealthers as other stealthers it brings there instant cc into play which is game breaking in the stealth game. You may want it to so you can avoid assassins but that's not what would happen in game. An assassin/archer would get spotted at say 100 units and just get popped out of stealth with instant cc and then they are as good as dead. Stealth is an option for minstrels so they can stay hidden from visibles and prey on them, it is not their key tool (unlike assassins and archers) who rely on it. Out of interest what range do you think minstrels should spot an assassin if you had the choice?

Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:15 AM by Lillebror

Its rough for you, i get it.
I DONT need to see them better, i want THEM to see me from shorter range.

ATM you Assassins SEE us from «miles» away and our get out of jail card is same as scout (well ITS better due to cant be evaded but it can often be resisted. we stun after a PA (should get stun of before the CD stun) given the assassin dont start with BS.
We Also have SOS , scout is out of luck here.

Assassins is king of melee and my main stealther normaly been an assassin. But why should all Assassins also be king of stealth detection.
Im close to think we better of with MOS that give detection so atleast Archers stand a chance.

When you see the solo kill lists you see that the stealth war aint balanced.
Stealth detection is the biggest part of that.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 9:46 AM by Tillbeast

How short? Considering assassins spot a specialised stealth class (archer) who needs stealth far more than a minstrel, at a range of 250. You don't seem to understand a minstrel is NOT a class designed for running around solo in stealth. Making them harder to detect would be unfair. The difference between 250 and 480 is about right, the archer is suppose to roam around using stealth as protection from other stealthers whilst a minstrel using stealth to protect themselves from visibles. You also have the protection of speed 5 so making it harder to spot you in stealth is unfair, you need to have a weakness and every class has a weakness even minstrels. Filling that weakness would make the class even more imbalanced. Its a niche role in the minstrel class, you have the ability to roam solo whilst stealthed and you will pick of visibles all day long as that's what you are good at. However an assassin will seen you from miles away (as they are designed to do) and have a chance of killing you. Saying that of all classes that can survive a PA and turn tables on an assassin is a minstrel. I have done a groundset 250 and 480 and the difference Is not really that big considering a minstrel in stealth has more than the double capability of an archer.

We are going in circles with this so I will not continue the debate, we will just have to agree to disagree but I will finish this with opinion...

a minstrel is strong in group visible rvr...speed 5, lots of utility that works in a group, has all the tools to do job properly and well...can an assassin do this?
a minstrel is the best class in single visible rvr....no explanation really needed...how good is an assassin in visible rvr?
a minstrel is exceptionally strong in stealther group rvr....bringing instant cc to a stealth fight is why albs always win the stealth war...plus they have no idea what the word solo means. (unless your a solo minstrel with stealth apparently)
a minstrel is not so good in solo stealth rvr....detects stealthers as good as a non stealther and is easily spotted. An assassin has all the tools to do this job well...a minstrel does not.

Happy hunting.

Thu 18 Apr 2019 7:22 PM by Lillebror

With no detection part of MoS and no True Sight, Camoflage and See Hidden i see no good reason for Assassins and Archers not haveing same stealth detection vs eachother and both see Minstrels little further away.

Something like :
Assassins and Archers sees eachother from 125 and they both sees Minstrels from 250.

And remove super stealth from vanish 1, and remove stealth lore pots