Archery damage calculatioan has been known to be bugged for months. Why hasn't it been fixed or at least adressed yet?

Hello everyone, hello devs

There is a lot I could say about the state of archery in classic daoc and it's state on phoenix, but I want to adress a very phoenix specific problem.

At least two months ago I read the first thread where someone tested archery damage and damage increase relative to skill points invested and it has come out that archery damage basically caps at 35 archery. The damage increase after 35 is marginal and the difference between 35 and 50 critshot is something around 20 dmg which is absolutely laughable if you consider how many points you have to put into the archery line.

Multiple people have reported this and I can 100% remember that the dmg increase above 35 on classic live was way higher. Sniper specs often had 45-50 bow spec because these people wanted to max their bow dmg and didnt care about melee.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that archery damage should have a linear increase in damage from current 35 archery spec. I am not commenting on archery damage in general in this thread because I have nothing to compare it against and can't remember how much damage you could do back in 1.65.

The thing is... basically every unter is 35 archery and 44+ spear now. The only efficient(*cough* *cough* ) archer spec is playing as high melee which kills all diversity.
If bow damage calculation is bugged in a way where it reaches its maximum at 35, then this could possibly be an unintended buff to them because you can now "softcap" your bow dmg at 35 and still be kinda decent at melee, but this is 100% not working as intended. I have even seen some people recommend 27 Archery in advice to new hunters and stating that it is not really worth putting points into archery. "You will still do nearly the same dmg at 27".

My hunter is not 50 yet and I will do my own tests when he is lvl 49 and compare 27 vs 35 vs 50 bow spec and give a report on this forum, but I have seen numerous forum posts and countless ingame advice of not speccing high archery because it is a waste of points.

So why did devs never adress this? An info would be nice.

IMPORTANT EDIT:
I have found this homepage: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/archery_bow_mechanics.html

It sates the following:

To calculate the effects of relics, base character resists and realm abilitys that add resists you would perform the following calculation:

Effective DPS * (your WS/target AF) * (relic bonus) * (1-absorb) * (1-base resists) * (1-RA resists) * slow weap bonus * 2h weapon bonus * SPD * Arrow Bonus

Example:

Attacker has 2000 weaponskill, 65 composite bow spec, a 5.5 speed bow with 16.0 effective dps, using blunt footed flight broadhead arrows, has no relics, and is attacking a chain using target with 635 af, 20 character resist, 20 RA resist.

16.0 * (2000 / 635 ) * 1.0 * ( 1 - .27 ) * ( ( 1 - .20 ) * (1 - .20) ) * 1.105 * 1.425 * 5.5 * 1.25 = 254.8759937

Now lets calculate different bow specs based on this calculation. We will use the same numbers except we use 35+15 bow spec instead of 50+15. To achieve this we just have to recalculate the 2h damage bonus.

50+15 2h bonus:
1.1 + (0.005 x 65) = 1.425 --> ~254 dmg (see example calculation for result)

35+15 2h bonus:
1.1 + (0.005 x 50) = 1.35
16.0 * (2000 / 635 ) * 1.0 * ( 1 - .27 ) * ( ( 1 - .20 ) * (1 - .20) ) * 1.105 * 1.35 * 5.5 * 1.25 = 241,5

So 35+15 vs 50+15 should have a discrepancy of just 13 damage. The devs might be correct, but I can only confirm this once my hunter hits level 50. I will do tests with 27 vs 35 bow damage and check if the numbers are the same as this calculation, but I don't have time right now. Old archery was just not a good design it seems which lead to new archery being introduced.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:35 PM by Ceen

Do multiple people have reported it or multiple people tested it?
Because all I see is copy paste QQ and none actually tested it and got some chatlog prove with more than 100 hits, most likely since it's already working as intended.

So your hunter is not even 50 yet you claim the damage difference between 35 bow and 50 bow is 20 damage, is this a pre QQ post so you have a buffed class when you hit 50??

Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:45 PM by Padatoo

DMG variance caps at 52 composite archery,which very well could be 35+17 at rr7.From there it increases by a little from 'DMG = 1.1+0.005xSpec' formula and a little improvement in miss rates and def penetration.The current state of archery is working as intended by the devs.

Imo Buffing archers is a fair request,and especially buffing hunters.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:56 PM by stinsfire

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:35 PM
Have multiple people reported it or multiple people did some tests?

I will not wade through every archery thread and link every post where people confirm it but I have seen people confirm it multiple times and I have seen people say it in ingame chat at least a couple dozens of times. But I have a post in my bookmarks that says the following:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?p=45597#p45597

noflex wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 4:21 AM
I used to be 40 bow

Just respec to 35 and tested both on dummies with normal shots

With 35 bow spec I shoot exactly 8dmg less per shot with 5.2 speed galla bow on hib.. this is with 48path red d/q self buff and combined pot

Using a 4.5 speed bow it’s only 6 dmg less per shot from 40 to 35 spec

And 4.0 speed bow is 5 dmg per shot less

So I assume having 45 spec bow would just double the numbers I got from testing.. 50 bow spec triple the numbers

It’s absolutely not worth going higher than 35 IMO

... also crit shot dmg loss ranged from 10-30 depending on speed of bow I tested (4.0, 4.5, 5.2)

Because all I see is copy paste QQ and none actually tested it and got some chatlog prove with more than 100 hits, most likely since it's already working as intended.

Further more I find your response extremely biased and frustrating.
1. Devs could test this in a couple of minutes. They could just do a unit-test and change the bow spec variable and see the outcome. If people are constantly feel that te dmg calculation is not working correctly this is the first thing devs should have done and commented if they think it is working as intended or not. Outsourcing stuff like this to the community is bad developement practice in my opinion. (Okay, the shard is free, but devs should still be testing themselves if s.th is suspicious)
2. Archery damage has no variation. You can test it with 3 shots on dummies. Just respec between each shot and you have the exact increase of dmg per skillpoint spend. There is no need to do 100 shots. You are very missinformed
3. Here comes your bias into play... You have no clue what you are talking about("100 hits"

, you have not done tests, you probably have not played archer, countless people say that bow damage is not working as intended and yet you come to the conclusion that everything is working as intended.

So your hunter is not even 50 yet you claim the damage difference between 35 bow and 50 bow is 20 damage, is this a pre QQ post so you have a buffed class when you hit 50??

Nice you even had to add an ad-hominem to your post. But you didn't even read my post properly. I especially said I don't want archery damage to be buffed based on what people have said, I said I want it to scale properly. So that 50 bow does significantly more dmg than 35,

And why the hell do you take such an aggressive approach to a calm discussion and going borderline ad-hominem. The level of my hunter is of no signifance to the problem, Other people have tested it, I will test it when my hunter hits 50(still 10 levels to go) and report it here.

Btw.. you have discredited yourself from any further discussion with me since nothing you said had the slightest bit of substance to it. You just seem to be very afraid of hunters not being free RPs for the majority of enemy classes anymore. But let us not go this way. I specifically wanted to make this thread about the scaling problem and not start another 20+ page archery damage thread. According to you all these people are delusional anyway and archery is working as intended.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:03 PM by Ceen

If you want something changed 2 min of testing or 2 s of copy paste might not do the trick.
Your quote is some random numbers, what's so difficult on going to the test dummy and actually recording logs to prove your claim ^^

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:06 PM by stinsfire

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:45 PM
DMG variance caps at 52 composite archery,which very well could be 35+17 at rr7.From there it increases by a little from 'DMG = 1.1+0.005xSpec' formula and a little improvement in miss rates and def penetration.The current state of archery is working as intended by the devs.

Imo Buffing archers is a fair request,and especially buffing hunters.

Working as intendend in the sense of.. "Our code is working as we intend it to work" or "this is how archery worked back on live", What is the source of archery damage capping at 52? Any official posts from back them which state this? I know magic damage sclaes with every point above 50.

I played a hunter on live back during SI times and I am 100% sure I was very much disappointed with my bow dmg when I respecced to melee hunter. I Think I dropped my Archery from 45 to 30-35 and my damage was significantly lower, which made me respec to bow again because I was disappointed at how long it took to snipe people in zergfights from 100 to 0.

Do you have any link on the dev statement?

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:08 PM by stinsfire

Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:03 PM
If you want something changed 2 min of testing or 2 s of copy paste might not do the trick.
Your quote is some random numbers, what's so difficult on going to the test dummy and actually recording logs to prove your claim ^^

I cannot test it yet since my hunter is not 50. And as I already said I plan on doing those tests when I am level 50. Whate exactly is so hard to understand about this? Oh wait.. you are the guy who never fully reads/understands posts and comments before thinking and you probably missed that too. This is the second time you criticize something I already adressed in my post.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:21 PM by keen

Archer DMG is more than fine and if at all too high.
Making archers competitive in 1v1 needs either live like mos, or a heavy melee boost making them on pair with assassin's while still having archery.
Buffing archery isn't an appropriate way of balancing.
For live tests you can login on Pendragon, make an armsmen and test different crossbow specs including hundreds of shots.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:34 PM by stinsfire

keen wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:21 PM
Archer DMG is more than fine and if at all too high.
Making archers competitive in 1v1 needs either live like mos, or a heavy melee boost making them on pair with assassin's while still having archery.
Buffing archery isn't an appropriate way of balancing.
For live tests you can login on Pendragon, make an armsmen and test different crossbow specs including hundreds of shots.

Thanks for the pendragon advice but currently there is no way to create a free acount for the official servers and I dont feel like spending money on it. Didn't even know crossbow uses the old archery system.

To adress the 52 cap again. As already mentioned this is only about dmg variance for non-styled physical attacks. Bow shots on phoenix don't have any variance at all. Usually physical attacks are calculated from styled damage(no variance) + non styled damage(variance) but the whole non-styled part seems to be missing from archers. So I don't think the 52 variance cap plays a role for archers.

Maybe my mind is all clouded and I dreamed about the sniper dmg discrepancy between my 45 bow hunter and 30-35 bow spec back then,

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:51 PM by Ceen

There is most likely a variance but since everyone is using the training dummy they might end up with a damage modifier > 3 and it's capped no variance.
They use the known formulas and if they are implemented correctly, which I assume they are, the whole QQ is just made up and no one tested it.
Proof me wrong with chat logs

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:59 PM by Dominus

I posted some testing back on beta related to this very concern. This was just looking at variance (delta) between 45 and 50 bow as I was considering not running beastcraft at all due to the dismal performance of the pet.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2686&p=17189#p17189

Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:17 PM by stinsfire

Please all check the IMPORTANT EDIT in my original posts. I did maths and Devs seem to be right. Old archery just seems to be a flawed concept where going above 35 bow only gives you marginal benefits (less endu on rapid and higher chance to pen non-self bt) and basically no dmg increase (15 dmg for hundreds of spec points). Archery Damage seems classic-like if my source is correct and normal 2h weapon damage calculation + arrow modifier is used. The constant claim that archery damage is bugged seems to be incorrect!
When I hit level 50 I will do tests and see if damage numbers align, but dmg increase from 35->50 seemingly was low on 1.65 live too!

There is most likely a variance but since everyone is using the training dummy they might end up with a damage modifier > 3 and it's capped no variance.

I just tested it on a level 50 bonedancer and every single one of my shots hit for the same damage. Maybe it is a custom change on this shard or a bug? I mean.. I am not complaining about no dmg variance

Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:36 PM by Padatoo

stinsfire wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:17 PM
Please all check the IMPORTANT EDIT in my original posts. I did maths and Devs seem to be right. Old archery just seems to be a flawed concept where going above 35 bow only gives you marginal benefits (less endu on rapid and higher chance to pen non-self bt) and basically no dmg increase (15 dmg for hundreds of spec points). Archery Damage seems classic-like if my source is correct and normal 2h weapon damage calculation + arrow modifier is used. The constant claim that archery damage is bugged seems to be incorrect!
When I hit level 50 I will do tests and see if damage numbers align, but dmg increase from 35->50 seemingly was low on 1.65 live too!

There is most likely a variance but since everyone is using the training dummy they might end up with a damage modifier > 3 and it's capped no variance.

I just tested it on a level 50 bonedancer and every single one of my shots hit for the same damage. Maybe it is a custom change on this shard or a bug? I mean.. I am not complaining about no dmg variance

The DMG variance was set to always return an average number,by the Gruenes-schaf during the beta,to avoid all the future QQ (seems like didnt help at all).

Instead of normal 100%-150% variance at 52 composite,we now always get the average of 125%.

Without speccing weapon at all - you will hit for 75% instead of 50%-100%.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:40 PM by stinsfire

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:36 PM
stinsfire wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:17 PM
Please all check the IMPORTANT EDIT in my original posts. I did maths and Devs seem to be right. Old archery just seems to be a flawed concept where going above 35 bow only gives you marginal benefits (less endu on rapid and higher chance to pen non-self bt) and basically no dmg increase (15 dmg for hundreds of spec points). Archery Damage seems classic-like if my source is correct and normal 2h weapon damage calculation + arrow modifier is used. The constant claim that archery damage is bugged seems to be incorrect!
When I hit level 50 I will do tests and see if damage numbers align, but dmg increase from 35->50 seemingly was low on 1.65 live too!

There is most likely a variance but since everyone is using the training dummy they might end up with a damage modifier > 3 and it's capped no variance.

I just tested it on a level 50 bonedancer and every single one of my shots hit for the same damage. Maybe it is a custom change on this shard or a bug? I mean.. I am not complaining about no dmg variance

The DMG variance was set to always return an average number,by the Gruenes-schaf during the beta,to avoid all the future QQ (seems like didnt help at all).

Instead of normal 100%-150% variance at 52 composite,we now always get the average 125%

Thanks for clarification! Archery dmg abslolutely doesnt seem to be the issue here. We even got some nice qol with the standard 125%. PF/BC still feel like a waste of points tho with 75d/q charges and 39 pots that provide nearly as much as a 40 buff here. Will still go 40 bow, 40 BC at first tho because I love pets and need the money. 75d/q charges are just too expensive for me at the moment and I need to get 3 characters temped

Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:54 PM by Padatoo

stinsfire wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:40 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:36 PM
stinsfire wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:17 PM
Please all check the IMPORTANT EDIT in my original posts. I did maths and Devs seem to be right. Old archery just seems to be a flawed concept where going above 35 bow only gives you marginal benefits (less endu on rapid and higher chance to pen non-self bt) and basically no dmg increase (15 dmg for hundreds of spec points). Archery Damage seems classic-like if my source is correct and normal 2h weapon damage calculation + arrow modifier is used. The constant claim that archery damage is bugged seems to be incorrect!
When I hit level 50 I will do tests and see if damage numbers align, but dmg increase from 35->50 seemingly was low on 1.65 live too!

I just tested it on a level 50 bonedancer and every single one of my shots hit for the same damage. Maybe it is a custom change on this shard or a bug? I mean.. I am not complaining about no dmg variance

The DMG variance was set to always return an average number,by the Gruenes-schaf during the beta,to avoid all the future QQ (seems like didnt help at all).

Instead of normal 100%-150% variance at 52 composite,we now always get the average 125%

Thanks for clarification! Archery dmg abslolutely doesnt seem to be the issue here. We even got some nice qol with the standard 125%. PF/BC still feel like a waste of points tho with 75d/q charges and 39 pots that provide nearly as much as a 40 buff here. Will still go 40 bow, 40 BC at first tho because I love pets and need the money. 75d/q charges are just too expensive for me at the moment and I need to get 3 characters temped

I suggest you start with the farming toon then - bd/sham/sm ,instead of a hunter.The devs said multiple times that buffing archers is one of the topics of their internal discussion,and by the time they give birth to amy positive change you will farm enouph platinum to temp a hunter in a couple of days,instead of weeks.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:25 PM by Horus

I'm leaning towards the issues come down to this...when we are comparing to "the good old days"

1. Back in the day, not everyone was running with max MP AF templates.
2. Back in the day, most archers had buff bots which pushed up their WS in the formula.

The above equates to less damage than we remember. You have a situation where due to lack of buffbots your dmg output is less and your targets are harder, even cloth.

And there are other things that work against the sniper as well...current stealth detection mechanic, reactive proc interrupts, perma realm speed sprint on every class.

Is it right to say things are "bugged"? I don't know. Could be working as intended. As far as I know, the formula here is the same as any 2H unstyled attack with an arrow bonus added in if you are using the best arrows.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:56 PM by stinsfire

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 3:25 PM
I'm leaning towards the issues come down to this...when we are comparing to "the good old days"

1. Back in the day, not everyone was running with max MP AF templates.
2. Back in the day, most archers had buff bots which pushed up their WS in the formula.

The above equates to less damage than we remember. You have a situation where due to lack of buffbots your dmg output is less and your targets are harder, even cloth.

And there are other things that work against the sniper as well...current stealth detection mechanic, reactive proc interrupts, perma realm speed sprint on every class.

Is it right to say things are "bugged"? I don't know. Could be working as intended. As far as I know, the formula here is the same as any 2H unstyled attack with an arrow bonus added in if you are using the best arrows.

Yes, I agree with your statement.
Did reactive procs proc on ranged attacks back on live? I don't think so and it has been bothering my mind for a while. Really annoying if you get rupted from range when you just needed one more shot to secure the RP

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:54 PM
stinsfire wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:40 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 2:36 PM
The DMG variance was set to always return an average number,by the Gruenes-schaf during the beta,to avoid all the future QQ (seems like didnt help at all).

Instead of normal 100%-150% variance at 52 composite,we now always get the average 125%

Thanks for clarification! Archery dmg abslolutely doesnt seem to be the issue here. We even got some nice qol with the standard 125%. PF/BC still feel like a waste of points tho with 75d/q charges and 39 pots that provide nearly as much as a 40 buff here. Will still go 40 bow, 40 BC at first tho because I love pets and need the money. 75d/q charges are just too expensive for me at the moment and I need to get 3 characters temped

I suggest you start with the farming toon then - bd/sham/sm ,instead of a hunter.The devs said multiple times that buffing archers is one of the topics of their internal discussion,and by the time they give birth to amy positive change you will farm enouph platinum to temp a hunter in a couple of days,instead of weeks.

I have a 50 Thane now who has a couple of TG items and some mediocre rogs. Then simultaneously leveld my sham and hunter. My shaman is 34 now and my hunter 40. I should be leveling the sham, but I enjoy my Hunter too much despite losing 95% of all fights vs assassins. I just try to avoid them now. It would be really cool if they added camo or te same detect range as assassins at 40 stealth or something so you could make some hunter who sucks with his spear but is really good at sniping and avoiding other stealthers.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:15 PM by Ardri

Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:45 PM
DMG variance caps at 52 composite archery,which very well could be 35+17 at rr7.From there it increases by a little from 'DMG = 1.1+0.005xSpec' formula and a little improvement in miss rates and def penetration.The current state of archery is working as intended by the devs.

Imo Buffing archers is a fair request,and especially buffing hunters.

That's just the way old archery was. An unstyles 2h melee attack. That's why going high bow doesn't increase damage much because it's not a "style" or "spell" like after the live rework of archery. Then you have almost a hard cap at 52 composite.

Archery damage does NOT need to be increased. The damage is very good right now. With low bow 27-35 you can crit people for 600+ which is pretty crazy considering the point investment. The only thing that i would suggest is a stealth buff/rework. Maybe increase archery stealth detection to 300-400.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:51 PM by SaintRon

Wait a damn minute... Did I read that bottom part correct? It sounds like a slower bow barely matters either. (10 to 30 damage loss)

Yet everyone wants the slower bow....

Wouldn't you want the faster one then?

Fri 5 Apr 2019 3:23 PM by Padatoo

SaintRon wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:51 PM
Wait a damn minute... Did I read that bottom part correct? It sounds like a slower bow barely matters either. (10 to 30 damage loss)

Yet everyone wants the slower bow....

Wouldn't you want the faster one then?

Why would you believe everything the people say?
You'd want the slowest bow possible because the first shot from stealth is basically free and you'd want the fastest bow to rupt quicker and get a stable DPS (and possibly deliver another shot before you get rupted).
Ideally you want the slowest bow hitting for 1.5s cap

Fri 5 Apr 2019 5:17 PM by stinsfire

Ardri wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:15 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:45 PM
DMG variance caps at 52 composite archery,which very well could be 35+17 at rr7.From there it increases by a little from 'DMG = 1.1+0.005xSpec' formula and a little improvement in miss rates and def penetration.The current state of archery is working as intended by the devs.

Imo Buffing archers is a fair request,and especially buffing hunters.

That's just the way old archery was. An unstyles 2h melee attack. That's why going high bow doesn't increase damage much because it's not a "style" or "spell" like after the live rework of archery. Then you have almost a hard cap at 52 composite.

Archery damage does NOT need to be increased. The damage is very good right now. With low bow 27-35 you can crit people for 600+ which is pretty crazy considering the point investment. The only thing that i would suggest is a stealth buff/rework. Maybe increase archery stealth detection to 300-400.

Damage doesnt need to be increased if damage is as good in 50 rvr as in cale. Ofc.. gainst plate tanks you wont hit for much. But bow damage didnt seem to be the problem. But I'd love for the devs to introduce some benefits for going high bow and rework PF/BC and give something else to the scout. I'd love to be a high bow, high BC hunter. If I wanted to be melee I would have rolled an assassin and hunters arent even that good at melee. Even with 44 spear spec you will lost melee to any assassin,tank and offtank and probably hybrids too. It does nice dmg on casters, but that hardly ever happens.

I have some rough ideas to make hunter more interesting. Keep in mind that I am not asking for all of my ideas to be introduced. Just different ideas what could be done:
Beastraft:
-Additional pets after 32. They could get increased movespeed and maybe a chance to proc a snare or disease or styles. I dont know if disease would be OP in classic setting. But the slow would break after the next hit from doggy or your bow. No clue if it should cause immunity as other pets also apply cc without immunity. Maybe make it a 20% slow with only 5.10s duration but it doesnt cause immunity.
-Make pet buff instant, turn it into rage/hunt/whatever mode and give it a 5 minute cooldown. If you activate it the buff is applied and your pet gets movespeed increase for 20-30s. Would be an alternative to faster pets in general.
-Increase self buffs to 75 at level 50. Still hardl anyone would go 50BC but this way your selfbuff can actually surpass the charges. Just like on thane who gets 75 Selfbuff. Level 40 Selfbuff should have such a delve that it buffs you for 70-75 points after spec level and bonus from items is factored in.
-Increase AF self buff to same value as ranger. Why does hunter have a weaker self buff?

Archery: Maybe give a reward for speccing into high archery. Like increased damage on rapid fire 2 or make pen arrow2 give a low chance to pen self BT or sth.. (okay maybe OP.. poor casters). Atm rf2 only decreases endu use I think.

Since scout doesn't have a magic line make his bow line more interesting. Add stuff to it after level 27. Maybe give scouts longshot as part of their specline. Or a focus aoe where the scout would select a target and then shoot arrows into the air in rapid succession(really fast.. pew pew pew) and arrows would rain down but unlike magic AOEs the arrows have a chance to miss and be blocked. Spell would have a max focus time. 5s or something. Damage would also be lower than single target shots. And it has a 30s-1min cooldown.The main target would have extremely low miss chance like normal shots the others would have a significant miss chance(30-50% maybe). A lot of custom work I assume and a potential source for bugs. I dont think it will ever happen since it would even require custom animations. I dont get why mythic was so goddamn uncreative when it came to old archerye. So many obvious features they could have implemented.

I have no clue about rangers, but they give my thane a way harder time than scouts. They bypass my defense and their melee dmg seems to be pretty nasty.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 PM by semadin

stinsfire wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 5:17 PM
Ardri wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:15 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 12:45 PM
DMG variance caps at 52 composite archery,which very well could be 35+17 at rr7.From there it increases by a little from 'DMG = 1.1+0.005xSpec' formula and a little improvement in miss rates and def penetration.The current state of archery is working as intended by the devs.

Imo Buffing archers is a fair request,and especially buffing hunters.

That's just the way old archery was. An unstyles 2h melee attack. That's why going high bow doesn't increase damage much because it's not a "style" or "spell" like after the live rework of archery. Then you have almost a hard cap at 52 composite.

Archery damage does NOT need to be increased. The damage is very good right now. With low bow 27-35 you can crit people for 600+ which is pretty crazy considering the point investment. The only thing that i would suggest is a stealth buff/rework. Maybe increase archery stealth detection to 300-400.

Damage doesnt need to be increased if damage is as good in 50 rvr as in cale. Ofc.. gainst plate tanks you wont hit for much. But bow damage didnt seem to be the problem. But I'd love for the devs to introduce some benefits for going high bow and rework PF/BC and give something else to the scout. I'd love to be a high bow, high BC hunter. If I wanted to be melee I would have rolled an assassin and hunters arent even that good at melee. Even with 44 spear spec you will lost melee to any assassin,tank and offtank and probably hybrids too. It does nice dmg on casters, but that hardly ever happens.

I have some rough ideas to make hunter more interesting. Keep in mind that I am not asking for all of my ideas to be introduced. Just different ideas what could be done:
Beastraft:
-Additional pets after 32. They could get increased movespeed and maybe a chance to proc a snare or disease or styles. I dont know if disease would be OP in classic setting. But the slow would break after the next hit from doggy or your bow. No clue if it should cause immunity as other pets also apply cc without immunity. Maybe make it a 20% slow with only 5.10s duration but it doesnt cause immunity.
-Make pet buff instant, turn it into rage/hunt/whatever mode and give it a 5 minute cooldown. If you activate it the buff is applied and your pet gets movespeed increase for 20-30s. Would be an alternative to faster pets in general.
-Increase self buffs to 75 at level 50. Still hardl anyone would go 50BC but this way your selfbuff can actually surpass the charges. Just like on thane who gets 75 Selfbuff. Level 40 Selfbuff should have such a delve that it buffs you for 70-75 points after spec level and bonus from items is factored in.
-Increase AF self buff to same value as ranger. Why does hunter have a weaker self buff?

Archery: Maybe give a reward for speccing into high archery. Like increased damage on rapid fire 2 or make pen arrow2 give a low chance to pen self BT or sth.. (okay maybe OP.. poor casters). Atm rf2 only decreases endu use I think.

Since scout doesn't have a magic line make his bow line more interesting. Add stuff to it after level 27. Maybe give scouts longshot as part of their specline. Or a focus aoe where the scout would select a target and then shoot arrows into the air in rapid succession(really fast.. pew pew pew) and arrows would rain down but unlike magic AOEs the arrows have a chance to miss and be blocked. Spell would have a max focus time. 5s or something. Damage would also be lower than single target shots. And it has a 30s-1min cooldown.The main target would have extremely low miss chance like normal shots the others would have a significant miss chance(30-50% maybe). A lot of custom work I assume and a potential source for bugs. I dont think it will ever happen since it would even require custom animations. I dont get why mythic was so goddamn uncreative when it came to old archerye. So many obvious features they could have implemented.

I have no clue about rangers, but they give my thane a way harder time than scouts. They bypass my defense and their melee dmg seems to be pretty nasty.

For Rangers, I like the idea of putting interesting Archery related buffs/effects high into PF. This way if a Ranger wanted to spec sniper and have all the 'extra' benefits they'd have to dump loads of points into PF forcing weak melee (Rangers with low melee really do stink).

You could then reintroduce the sniper/hybrid/melee spec choices again this way (right now 'sniper' spec is as effective at sniping as hybrid or even full melee - having just a couple percentage points of damage to top the other specs at complete sacrifice of melee capability).

I dont think you can afford to put any melee benefits into PF, since with pots and charges essentially allowing those with the time/gold to run buffbotted, melee rangers can get out of wack super fast, without sacrificing much damage bow wise.

But this way PF would regain value as a spec line, and those Rangers who want to focus on archery alone can do more than just leech fights.

Not sure exactly what those buffs would be, but it seems like the sky could be open for options (from defense penetration to adding utility, and dare I say poisons to arrows).

Probably wouldn't fly since other archers would give a stink over their counterpart getting something unique. As much as people love the uniqueness of classes in this game, the general push always seems to be towards homogeneity.

I'd say for Scouts put added benefits directly in their bow line...flavor wise they are supposed to be the real snipers. Putting Longshot and Volley high into scout bow line sounds like a fun addition. They are kind of a waste of RA points, but actually pretty decent abilities in their own right - been messing around with them on the Ranger and both have proved fun and useful, getting me kills and rps where I wouldn't otherwise (still not even remotely worth loosing out on ip/purge).

Fri 5 Apr 2019 10:18 PM by woody

SaintRon wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 1:51 PM
Wait a damn minute... Did I read that bottom part correct? It sounds like a slower bow barely matters either. (10 to 30 damage loss)

Yet everyone wants the slower bow....

Wouldn't you want the faster one then?

yeah, based on that formula every .5 speed on bow = 23dmg

5.5 254
5.0 231
4.5 208
4.0 185

Sat 6 Apr 2019 5:16 PM by stinsfire

semadin wrote: ↑
Fri 5 Apr 2019 7:08 PM
Not sure exactly what those buffs would be, but it seems like the sky could be open for options (from defense penetration to adding utility, and dare I say poisons to arrows).

Probably wouldn't fly since other archers would give a stink over their counterpart getting something unique. As much as people love the uniqueness of classes in this game, the general push always seems to be towards homogeneity.

I'd say for Scouts put added benefits directly in their bow line...flavor wise they are supposed to be the real snipers. Putting Longshot and Volley high into scout bow line sounds like a fun addition. They are kind of a waste of RA points, but actually pretty decent abilities in their own right - been messing around with them on the Ranger and both have proved fun and useful, getting me kills and rps where I wouldn't otherwise (still not even remotely worth loosing out on ip/purge).

Pathfinding always makes me think of a stealth lore buff or anything else that locates enemies. Maybe a stealth lore (grp) buff with 15 minute downtime?