what about New Frontiers? - Phoenix Freeshard

Greetings all, first of all i must say that Phoenix is far better than what i could ever expect, nice balanced classes, good xp rate, etc. i mean, it's fun.

the only think i don't like are the Old Frontiers, the big number of toons on RvR running in areas like Emain only produce as a result a huge zerg, killing part of the RvR experience. on Phoenix your realm wins not because the skilled players (surely i am not one of those

) but because your side overcomes the "enemies" in frontiers, that i (no offense) call "a bowel" where there is not enough space to move.

stealthers as well can't really play, the only places they can move are the gates, where they will be ganked all the time, same as smallmen. in NF you have the mazes,

NF offers also a totally new perspective about keep takes, sieges, etc. i am not asking to introduce TOA stuff and classes, but consider only that NF could significantly improve RvR.

someone told me there was already a vote by the community, but probably nobody expected so many people playing at the same time. please reconsider it

my english is not very good, i hope you understand what i said.

see you in RvR

Thu 28 Mar 2019 2:10 PM by Dominus

your english is excellent, and your points are valid. Time will tell the direction the frontiers take. I will say don't underestimate the developers, they're exceptionally responsive.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 2:28 PM by Numatic

I believe a large majority of players have voiced the same opinions in wanting NF instead of OF. With the current RA setup, and certain skills like Hibnesia, give an overwhelming disparity in the way RvR flows. It's the reason why my brother and I dont duo on his skald anymore and why I've shelved my minstrel (except to to help get his toon higher RR atm). 80% of our deaths are a direct result from hib amnesia. This wouldn't be as big a problem in NF. RvR should be win/lose from either bad judgment or being outplayed or outnumbered. Not because of geometry and latency issues.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by Lollie

I think I read in a different thread about how it would take months to try an implement NF due to pathing. They might be doing something about it in the back ground but I can't see NF happening anytime soon.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:32 PM by Runental

My Dream. Classic+ Si+ NF,- some custom overcap/Toa Boni... where is the donate button?

Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:40 PM by lurker

NF was certainly better for keeps / flow / etc.
But love OF also its not as bad as people make out for the most part...
Just SoS through that mile gate and go deeper into the frontiers.

Ill never get involved in a keep fight in OF if I can avoid it, they are just so crappy. So there’s that.

But happy playing in either.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:46 PM by

Uthred

I just want to add two facts to the discussion.

1. We dont have any plans on adding NF atm.

2. If we would add NF, it would take about 6 months to fully implement it.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 5:08 PM by Runental

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:46 PM
I just want to add two facts to the discussion.

1. We dont have any plans on adding NF atm.

2. If we would add NF, it would take about 6 months to fully implement it.

Start small!!

Molvik with all 3 NF towers and CK, full siege toys from level 35 to 39, RR cap 4l0- i'll stay here forever

Thu 28 Mar 2019 5:44 PM by

Uthred

We cant start small. Doesnt matter if we would only implement one map or all NF maps. The work to be done would be the same.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 9:49 PM by Dindelion

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 5:44 PM
We cant start small. Doesnt matter if we would only implement one map or all NF maps. The work to be done would be the same.

What about taking NF keeps only to replace OF ones ? Would it take a lot of work ? What are your thoughts about that ? A lot of people would like that I think, as it would fix one major flaw of OF.

Thu 28 Mar 2019 10:19 PM by Sepplord

Dindelion wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 9:49 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 5:44 PM
We cant start small. Doesnt matter if we would only implement one map or all NF maps. The work to be done would be the same.

What about taking NF keeps only to replace OF ones ? Would it take a lot of work ? What are your thoughts about that ? A lot of people would like that I think, as it would fix one major flaw of OF.

NF-keeps are far bigger than OF keeps. The NF keeps dont fit into OF maps.
What takes a lot of time for NF Implementation is that they have to redo the pathing. They have to do that for the NF-keeps even if they could the keeps into OF.
Which bribgs the last point, they cannot Change OF keeps. The keeps are part of the map, not something that was put into the map. They can remove/modify the gates but nothing else.

(Iirr)

Thu 28 Mar 2019 10:36 PM by

Uthred

That is actually the biggest part of the work. Placing some mobs and guards isnt that much of a work, but the different keep mechanics is what is the most work. When were discussing internally about teleports / the current task system, there was also the idea to put in the NF-towers and put the flags there. But we will not do it because it is too much work and it is nothing what can be done easily in one or two days.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 12:30 AM by gallaraider

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 10:19 PM
Dindelion wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 9:49 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 5:44 PM
We cant start small. Doesnt matter if we would only implement one map or all NF maps. The work to be done would be the same.

What about taking NF keeps only to replace OF ones ? Would it take a lot of work ? What are your thoughts about that ? A lot of people would like that I think, as it would fix one major flaw of OF.

NF-keeps are far bigger than OF keeps. The NF keeps dont fit into OF maps.
What takes a lot of time for NF Implementation is that they have to redo the pathing. They have to do that for the NF-keeps even if they could the keeps into OF.
Which bribgs the last point, they cannot Change OF keeps. The keeps are part of the map, not something that was put into the map. They can remove/modify the gates but nothing else.

(Iirr)

You are actually wrong. The map files are excel documents with every object listed in it. You can delete shit and place it at coordinates as you please.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:11 PM by Word

Absolutely not.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:48 PM by Ashenspire

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:46 PM
I just want to add two facts to the discussion.

1. We dont have any plans on adding NF atm.

2. If we would add NF, it would take about 6 months to fully implement it.

No time to get started like the present.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:10 PM by Expfighter

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:48 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:46 PM
I just want to add two facts to the discussion.

1. We dont have any plans on adding NF atm.

2. If we would add NF, it would take about 6 months to fully implement it.

No time to get started like the present.

NO NO NO, OF is a big reason that thousands of players came to play here, classic/si/OF, if you want NF go play live they have tons of NF and NNF and NNNNNNNF garbage!

Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:13 PM by chryso

The dev team just finished a huge undertaking getting this server up and running. I think we should give them a break and let them play for a while.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:17 PM by Ashenspire

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:10 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:48 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:46 PM
I just want to add two facts to the discussion.

1. We dont have any plans on adding NF atm.

2. If we would add NF, it would take about 6 months to fully implement it.

No time to get started like the present.

NO NO NO, OF is a big reason that thousands of players came to play here, classic/si/OF, if you want NF go play live they have tons of NF and NNF and NNNNNNNF garbage!

And they're the same people complaining about zergs and mile gate camping. Things that NF fixed.

NF was objectively better than OF in all ways but the underwater combat. Better for zergs. Better for 8man. Better for small man. Better for solo.

Take off your rose tinted glasses and stop using hyperbole.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:32 PM by chryso

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:17 PM
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:10 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:48 PM
No time to get started like the present.

NO NO NO, OF is a big reason that thousands of players came to play here, classic/si/OF, if you want NF go play live they have tons of NF and NNF and NNNNNNNF garbage!

And they're the same people complaining about zergs and mile gate camping. Things that NF fixed.

How do you know these are the same people? Can you provide documentation?
I like old frontiers. I do not complain about zergs or mile gate camping.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:37 PM by cere2

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:10 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:48 PM
Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:46 PM
I just want to add two facts to the discussion.

1. We dont have any plans on adding NF atm.

2. If we would add NF, it would take about 6 months to fully implement it.

No time to get started like the present.

NO NO NO, OF is a big reason that thousands of players came to play here, classic/si/OF, if you want NF go play live they have tons of NF and NNF and NNNNNNNF garbage!

And how do we know this is true? Perhaps it was because it's a free-shard? I think a new poll should be in order here, to see who actually prefers OF over NF, now that the nostalgia period has worn off a bit

Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:53 PM by Ashenspire

chryso wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:32 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:17 PM
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:10 PM
NO NO NO, OF is a big reason that thousands of players came to play here, classic/si/OF, if you want NF go play live they have tons of NF and NNF and NNNNNNNF garbage!

And they're the same people complaining about zergs and mile gate camping. Things that NF fixed.

How do you know these are the same people? Can you provide documentation?
I like old frontiers. I do not complain about zergs or mile gate camping.

You don't need documentation. If "thousands of people" came for OF, all you have to do is look at /advice or these forms to see there's going to be a massive overlap between the two ideologies.

I like OF. But I like NF better because it was better.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:54 PM by Expfighter

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:53 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:32 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:17 PM
And they're the same people complaining about zergs and mile gate camping. Things that NF fixed.

How do you know these are the same people? Can you provide documentation?
I like old frontiers. I do not complain about zergs or mile gate camping.

You don't need documentation. If "thousands of people" came for OF, all you have to do is look at /advice or these forms to see there's going to be a massive overlap between the two ideologies.

I like OF. But I like NF better because it was better.

do you really want to get insta killed but overpowered siege and overpowered OIL? NO NO NO!

OF has character, NF is ALL the same maps, just turned different ways

tower camping, Bridge camping, F*&^ NO, HELL NO

Fri 29 Mar 2019 7:04 PM by Ashenspire

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:54 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:53 PM
chryso wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 3:32 PM
How do you know these are the same people? Can you provide documentation?
I like old frontiers. I do not complain about zergs or mile gate camping.

You don't need documentation. If "thousands of people" came for OF, all you have to do is look at /advice or these forms to see there's going to be a massive overlap between the two ideologies.

I like OF. But I like NF better because it was better.

do you really want to get insta killed but overpowered siege and overpowered OIL? NO NO NO!

OF has character, NF is ALL the same maps, just turned different ways

tower camping, Bridge camping, F*&^ NO, HELL NO

Are you a child? Good lord.

Oil was fine if you were in a ram. Ya know, as it was intended. Siege engines weren't even close to OP.

What character does OF have? Imbalanced maps and horrible choke points? That's not character, that's poor design.

PK camping, MG camping. That happens now and you have no choice but to use those.

Sat 30 Mar 2019 2:41 AM by TungstenGage

Mythic released NF for a reason.....and it wasn't because OF was better lol

and yes NF is 100% better than OF in every way

I also think that people forget that DAOC RVR was never meant to be 8v8 it was meant for the 200v200v200, if they wanted only 8v8 action they would have made arena maps instead.

Sat 30 Mar 2019 12:18 PM by Kyera

I don't dislike the OF maps per se, but I have a love/hate relationship with how action is 100% concentrated around specific chokepoints regardless of realm and how garbage keep sieges are. The former is a big reason why I have to raise my eyebrows when people complain about NF keeps/zones being 'samey' and people camping inside bridges/towers - like OF wasn't just a big ol' milegate and PK camp party.

SI is definitely the sweet spot from the perspective of tuning, but OF definitely was not the sweet spot for RvR.

I know NF is a lot of work, but put me down as a +1 for it being a desired future enhancement down the road.

Sun 31 Mar 2019 4:19 AM by secrain

Yea, NF was better. OF is nice for the nostalgia.

Just copy what the official classic server had going (Bossiney cluster) and there we go.

Sun 31 Mar 2019 10:43 AM by Sayuri

i cannot say more than +1 to NF

Sun 31 Mar 2019 12:32 PM by waffel

Hopefully by the time they finish NF and implement it there is still a population. OF ain’t gonna work.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:24 PM by imissswg

IMO the big draw here is and always will be no ToA or any of the crap that came after it.

I would love NF. I thought NF was superior in every way...towers, trebs, fewer choke points and they could be bypassed, etc Zerging Emain was never fun to me, and I always thought the idea of portal keeps in enemy territory was dumb. Why wouldn't those keeps be captured or destroyed first?

I know it would be a big undertaking, but I hope they decide to do it in the future.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 4:53 PM by Satari

imissswg wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 1:24 PM
IMO the big draw here is and always will be no ToA or any of the crap that came after it.

I would love NF. I thought NF was superior in every way...towers, trebs, fewer choke points and they could be bypassed, etc Zerging Emain was never fun to me, and I always thought the idea of portal keeps in enemy territory was dumb. Why wouldn't those keeps be captured or destroyed first?

I know it would be a big undertaking, but I hope they decide to do it in the future.

I could not agree with this more. I know NF could be too much work to implement. Even so, I have hopes they crank it out.

Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:41 PM by Sepplord

Uthred has told ja that it would take about 6month of work...

I don't see them abandoning the serversupport/Development for 6month to implement NF at the end of the Year, so dont get your hopes up too much

Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:56 PM by cere2

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 4 Apr 2019 5:41 PM
Uthred has told ja that it would take about 6month of work...

I don't see them abandoning the serversupport/Development for 6month to implement NF at the end of the Year, so dont get your hopes up too much

Who says they have to abandon support in order to work on NF?
Did they abandon support to implement any of the changes? Not that I have seen.
If it's 6 months for NF, great....better than never.
I don't recall anyone saying they will have to ditch everything they are doing and solely work on NF for 6 months to make it happen.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 4:05 AM by Duse

I agree, I would wait as long as it takes for NF. It is better for all aspects of RvR, smallman, 8man, stealthers, even the zerg.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 12:52 PM by inxi

I'm mainly a smallman player with random 8mans here and there and for me NF (NNF even) is the way to go.

I will probably take a break soon till NF is implemented, whenever that happens. OF really only has emain that is pleasant to roam in (alb is just fucking hills everywhere and mid is just white and a strain on eyes IMO) and the sieges in OF are boring and one-dimensional because the keeps are just oooold design.
The thing with NF is that every realm would be like Emain, but better. You could avoid the chokepoints like bridges and docks or seek those hotspots out for fights. Smallman groups could flow between the zergs. Towers provide smaller objectives for groups that can't tackle the bigger keeps and tower fights are super iconic to NF.

The way I see it is that NF would be better for solos, smallman, 8mans and even zergs vs zergs and would get my +1 any day of the week.

Fri 5 Apr 2019 5:10 PM by cere2

Honestly I just hope they get started with NF asap. Perhaps just do the minimum possible for a small area like....Molvik BG from live, just to test the waters. Only allow 60 from each realm in at a time. Max of 1 hour play time a day in the area. See what the response is. I think people would flood to it. But who knows unless someone gives it a whirl.
Perhaps then instead of a 6 month investment perhaps its a 2 week investment?
That way they can be sure the investment is worth it's weight for full on NF.
Thoughts?

Sat 6 Apr 2019 1:02 AM by TungstenGage

The way I see it is this

If they don't go ahead and take the time to implement NF the server will get stagnant and die off slowly. Bring in NF, and siege engines and RVR will get to a much better place which is how it was intended to be.

Sat 6 Apr 2019 2:27 AM by waffel

TungstenGage wrote: ↑
Sat 6 Apr 2019 1:02 AM
The way I see it is this

If they don't go ahead and take the time to implement NF the server will get stagnant and die off slowly. Bring in NF, and siege engines and RVR will get to a much better place which is how it was intended to be.

Are you not entertained by 8 man PvE content; instead of focusing on what made DAoC great, RvR?

Sat 6 Apr 2019 3:59 AM by LedriTheThane

As a younger person that did play DAoC way back then but was just a little kid, this server was my real first glimpse of OF outside of watching my dad run around and watching old videos. I came back to DAoC in early 2015 after years of not playing, and went really hard for a year and a half. Then I quit because of the awful class balances, and other private servers launching at the time.

Anyways, given that context I might be bias, but I genuinely wonder what appeal OF has over NF outside of nostalgia. People complain about mindless zerging all the time, but OF, or maybe just Phoenix, seems to encourage mindless zerging. Mind you, I think coordinated zerging isn't mindless, but seeing as OF caters more towards 8 man's and I've often see a bunch of them run around in circles, waiting for the first one to hit, so all the 8 man's from each realm can jump into the fight. That's a mindless zerg. The mile gates, while often a hot spot for battles, is too much of a bottleneck. The horrendous keep design is one of OF's biggest flaws. Like, I get that it was an old game back in the day so you couldn't have anything really impressive, but in comparison to NF, these keeps are trash. There's nothing dynamic about those fights. I think the worst thing are all the PVE mobs scattered everywhere, especially how some beetles are green to level 50. I'm legit astonished whenever I hear someone taking a big dump on "PVE" aspects in MMO's yet prefers OF to NF.

Now before you respond "wElL jUsT gO bAcK tO rEtAiL tHeN", lemme tell you that there's much more things about Phoenix that I prefer than on retail. Less stats to worry about capping, temping is easy, love the feather system, the old pve end game dungeons/raids are actually interesting despite being a zerg fest, the class balancing is near perfect despite what some design decisions were Mythic's fault, etc.. NF is one of two things I miss about retail, the other being my Valkyrie, but I can live without that.

I do like OF's Forest Sauvage though. Pretty place.