Skald Demezz + Stun balance - Phoenix Freeshard

Dear Administrator,

Just asking myself if you planned to give some demezz shout / spell for Skald
Minstrel got it
Bard got it
Skald….

In addition, Midgard realm don t have acces to stun spell (except the Healer class)
On albion, cleric have it, Minstrel have it…
On HIbernia it s a base spell on Sun Magic (so basically 3 classes can stun you on zf)…

On Midgard...just one class have access to it (pac healer)

Is there any hope to see some "adjustments" on these facts in the future ?

Maybe it s something you don t see as an "imbalancement", but for a lots of player on Mid Side..it is !!!

(and sorry for my English , it s not my "mother tongue"

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:13 AM by Lollie

Doesn't mid already have access to 2 demezzers in healers and SM? also healers don't just have access to stun, they have aoe stuns which no other realm has? And i'm pretty sure Skalds are in a good place on this server and really don't need anymore toys. Just my 2 cents.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:19 AM by Algarakai

You re right, we have two demezzers, it s true
But the point i wanna make is this one :
If you don t have a Pac Healer in your group, you CAN T STUN anyone at range
Does the fact, that healer (and specially pac healer) have AE Stun ,prohibited another mid class to have acces to stun spell?

And just look about numbers:
Albion=>2 classes with stun
Hibernia = 3 classes with stun
Midgard=> 1 classe with stun

It s just a question...no flaming, just asking

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:27 AM by Luluko

It would make them pretty ridiculous in smallman if skald had demezz, but I would prefer a lower cooldown on instant mezz the mezz is already quite short and only lvl 42 so you get a lot of resists and while minstrel can stun every 10seconds a skalds mezz has 30sec cooldown and minst can continue to cast mezz if left free. I think 20seconds would be better and it wouldnt make them that op but at least you could mezz the other one in a duo when the other gets out of the mezz and you dont have to kite like 15seconds until mezz is up again. But since skalds have det here they are already very strong they have decent chances to beat hybrids/stealthers and casters should all be dead just lighttanks and fulltanks with slam are still a no go without a decent ats debuff in hammer or a decent stun in axe/sword.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:30 AM by Druth

Isn't skald already one of the most played characters...?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:32 AM by Ceen

They also lack stoicism which could be looked at.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:33 AM by Luluko

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:30 AM
Isn't skald already one of the most played characters...?

if minstrels were more convenient to play (2 chants) they would take that place and you still see a lot of them. But yes except for some minor weaponline tweaks they are in a good place but mostly because we dont have bp speed/pots or horses here. Everyone who ever tried to solo on a nonespeed class should know why. Its not that they are unstoppable killing machines....

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:49 AM by Druth

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:33 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:30 AM
Isn't skald already one of the most played characters...?

if minstrels were more convenient to play (2 chants) they would take that place and you still see a lot of them. But yes except for some minor weaponline tweaks they are in a good place but mostly because we dont have bp speed/pots or horses here. Everyone who ever tried to solo on a nonespeed class should know why. Its not that they are unstoppable killing machines....

Not sure what your point is...

My point was that before you even start looking at subjective opinions on a class, or realm, and what you think it needs, you first have to be able to answer "Yes" to at least one of the below questions.

1) Is your realm is underdog (Mid is not)
2) Is your class is in the bottom of played classes (skald is not)

If you can't, it doesn't matter what you think the class needs, or if the other realms having stuff is unfair.

Friar got buffed because it could answer "Yes" to both questions.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:50 AM by Druth

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:32 AM
They also lack stoicism which could be looked at.

And shorter recast timer on DD's.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:59 AM by Algarakai

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:49 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:33 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:30 AM
Isn't skald already one of the most played characters...?
Not sure what your point is...

My point was that before you even start looking at subjective opinions on a class, or realm, and what you think it needs, you first have to be able to answer "Yes" to at least one of the below questions.

1) Is your realm is underdog (Mid is not)
2) Is your class is in the bottom of played classes (skald is not)

If you can't, it doesn't matter what you think the class needs, or if the other realms having stuff is unfair.

Friar got buffed because it could answer "Yes" to both questions.

I m not totally agreed with your analysis Druth,
Of course Skald is a "good" class, and there is a lot of these toon on Mid, but it s not because they are so "powerful" but just because we have Speed 6
and it s quite valuable on RvR . .In fact, lot of skald take the role of "speed bot" on ZF

And by the way , i m agree with Luluko about the recast timer on mezz shout, we need it i think

But Im not just talking about Skald…I m talking about the "stun spell imbalancement problem"

You ve got an opinion on that?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:20 AM by Druth

Algarakai wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:59 AM
I m not totally agreed with your analysis Druth,
Of course Skald is a "good" class, and there is a lot of these toon on Mid, but it s not because they are so "powerful" but just because we have Speed 6
and it s quite valuable on RvR . .In fact, lot of skald take the role of "speed bot" on ZF

And by the way , i m agree with Luluko about the recast timer on mezz shout, we need it i think

But Im not just talking about Skald…I m talking about the "stun spell imbalancement problem"

You ve got an opinion on that?

That unless you can show stats supporting an "imbalance", there is none.

You are focussing on one single aspect of DaoC, and concluding that because Mids only have 1 class being able to cast it, there is an imbalance.
I am not saying the lack of stuns might not be a problem for Mids, but that the stats supports that the positives Mids have outweight the negatives from lacking stun classes.
And that if you want to add stun or demez to Midgard, doing it on a class that is in top 5 of played classes pretty much all the time, is a horrible suggestion. Adding anything to a highly played class, in a realm that is dominating most of the time is always a horrible suggestion, no matter how much sense you can convince yourself it makes.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:34 AM by Algarakai

I m not trying to convince myself..i m convinced yet

Its was just a question, i m respecting every opinion

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:38 AM by Luluko

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:49 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:33 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:30 AM
Isn't skald already one of the most played characters...?

if minstrels were more convenient to play (2 chants) they would take that place and you still see a lot of them. But yes except for some minor weaponline tweaks they are in a good place but mostly because we dont have bp speed/pots or horses here. Everyone who ever tried to solo on a nonespeed class should know why. Its not that they are unstoppable killing machines....

Not sure what your point is...

My point was that before you even start looking at subjective opinions on a class, or realm, and what you think it needs, you first have to be able to answer "Yes" to at least one of the below questions.

1) Is your realm is underdog (Mid is not)
2) Is your class is in the bottom of played classes (skald is not)

If you can't, it doesn't matter what you think the class needs, or if the other realms having stuff is unfair.

Friar got buffed because it could answer "Yes" to both questions.

I think it does matter what I think just because a class is played a lot doesnt mean there is no room for improvements, like those afterblock stuns in axe/sword I would to specc sword get access to str/con debuff and ats debuff while having more endu use for styles but since all stuns there are crap no point in speccing that.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:48 AM by Druth

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:38 AM
I think it does matter what I think just because a class is played a lot doesnt mean there is no room for improvements, like those afterblock stuns in axe/sword I would to specc sword get access to str/con debuff and ats debuff while having more endu use for styles but since all stuns there are crap no point in speccing that.

Then what would you give up, in order to get other utility?

If you are not ready to give up other stuff, all you are asking for is for one of the most popular classes, in the most popular realm, to get buffed (or improved, but thats the same side of the coin).
How do you think that would make not only people with other mid classes as mains, but more importantly people playing other realms, feel?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:25 AM by opossum12

What what mid obly hasnpac healer to demezz? Is your aug healer smoking crack in the back?

Every single (and by that I mean 100%) mid group has two demezzers.

99% of alb groups (in case someone enjoys running at sorc speed) have two demezzers.

Hib is only realm that needs to adjust his setup to have two demezzers.

Stun at range? You have it with the pac AND aug healer that again, is in 100% of the groups. What are you complaining about? That skalds don’t have the cc of a bard?

Skald ins’t a speed bot, it is a front line rupter in group rvr and is a monster in smallman/solo.

Again, what are you complaining about exactly?

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:31 AM by Druth

Basically what I thought, just that I tried to keep it more diplomatic

Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM by relvinian

Skalds do not need any more love. Det 9 skalds are silly.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:28 PM by Algarakai

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:25 AM
…/...
Again, what are you complaining about exactly?

Just scroll back and read the post

Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:45 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Wish people would stop trying to mirror the three realms. Midgard has two demezzers. They also have a gambit support/cc class packaged into a single archtype. The fact that you get AoE stun, Instant AoE Stun, Instant Mezz, Instant AoE Mezz in a single spell line on a single class is why castable stun isn't loaded on other mid toons.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:18 PM by Murtaghe7

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:45 PM
Wish people would stop trying to mirror the three realms. Midgard has two demezzers. They also have a gambit support/cc class packaged into a single archtype. The fact that you get AoE stun, Instant AoE Stun, Instant Mezz, Instant AoE Mezz in a single spell line on a single class is why castable stun isn't loaded on other mid toons.

I'm honestly surprised it took 2 full pages before someone said this. The 3 realms are not mirrors of each other, ie. mid is not lacking or underpowered because their speed class doesn't have a demezz or that they don't have more than 1 class with a castable stun. Midgard has 2 demezz classes, healer/SM, one of which is an absolute necessity in RvR and what most would agree is the most powerful utility/heal class in the game. So lets absolutely rule out that skald's should get a demezz shout.

Second, to the castable stun, yes Alb and Hib have more classes that have access to a castable stun. But the combined stun power of both of those realms almost pales in comparison to that of a PAC healer. The only class to have access to an 11s stun, AOE stun, and instant AOE stun. The AOE stun in and of itself makes the stun power of midgard OP in regard to 8man and zerg rvr.

Those 2 points aside, Skald would be the last class on midgard to be considered for a buff. They already got Det, which most feel was a mistake, and quite frankly over perform in RvR as is.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:54 PM by Kampfar

Yeah better add stoi.

ops:

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:31 PM by Algarakai

Murtaghe7 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:18 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:45 PM
.../...
Second, to the castable stun, yes Alb and Hib have more classes that have access to a castable stun. But the combined stun power of both of those realms almost pales in comparison to that of a PAC healer. The only class to have access to an 11s stun, AOE stun, and instant AOE stun. The AOE stun in and of itself makes the stun power of midgard OP in regard to 8man and zerg rvr.
.../...

Thank you Murtaghe7,
Your point of view is clear, and it s give a bit of understanding about this inbalance

Fri 22 Mar 2019 8:43 PM by Luluko

Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:48 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:38 AM
I think it does matter what I think just because a class is played a lot doesnt mean there is no room for improvements, like those afterblock stuns in axe/sword I would to specc sword get access to str/con debuff and ats debuff while having more endu use for styles but since all stuns there are crap no point in speccing that.

Then what would you give up, in order to get other utility?

If you are not ready to give up other stuff, all you are asking for is for one of the most popular classes, in the most popular realm, to get buffed (or improved, but thats the same side of the coin).
How do you think that would make not only people with other mid classes as mains, but more importantly people playing other realms, feel?

hammer is quite good when it comes to endu usage I could live with using some endu potions during longer fights if sword/axe would have better stuns either a two part after parry chain with 5sec+ stun or 2 part positional stun would also work (I think axe had that on live) I certainly prefer most changes mythic did to the melee lines except for backsnare removal on lighttanks that was dumb but that was broadsword I think.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:30 PM by phixion

Yeah... no

Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:26 AM by Milchschnidde

Skalds allready can skill 50 into weapon and 43 into battle chants, which makes them very powerfull, you can run 1 hand weapon with shild while switch to 2 hand weapon, thats insane. Don't forget the dmg add + Anger of the gods combo to serious add dmg in small man.... If you want more utility then you have to give up dmg.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:51 AM by Luluko

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:26 AM
Skalds allready can skill 50 into weapon and 43 into battle chants, which makes them very powerfull, you can run 1 hand weapon with shild while switch to 2 hand weapon, thats insane. Don't forget the dmg add + Anger of the gods combo to serious add dmg in small man.... If you want more utility then you have to give up dmg.

any skald speccing 50 weapon is just dumb sorry, you will want the 20% resist for heat/body at least that leaves you with 46 weapon and since hammer is the only one with decent snares and a good anytime and the only usefull stun people use that. Even 44 weapon is already questionable since the prequisite style to the 44 style is the 29 backsnare with no 2hit bonus so the chances to miss are like 12% and that just so you have another follow up style which does like 50 damage more? nah if lambast had the ats debuff from the lvl 50 style and the lvl 50 style had a stun attached then it could be worth it. And only if you mostly fight tanks/assassins. Thats ofc all considering smallman/solo play since you really need those resists there if you dont have shaman/healer resists up.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 12:58 AM by waffel

Skald already on top when doing /serverinfo almost 24x7 and this guys wants a buff. Oh lawdy

Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:36 AM by Sharky04

Algarakai wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:19 AM
You re right, we have two demezzers, it s true
But the point i wanna make is this one :
If you don t have a Pac Healer in your group, you CAN T STUN anyone at range
Does the fact, that healer (and specially pac healer) have AE Stun ,prohibited another mid class to have acces to stun spell?

And just look about numbers:
Albion=>2 classes with stun
Hibernia = 3 classes with stun
Midgard=> 1 classe with stun

It s just a question...no flaming, just asking

Are you kidding me? Healers have 11sec baseline stun. Hib casters have 9 sec baseline stun.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 10:16 AM by Luluko

Sharky04 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:36 AM
Algarakai wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:19 AM
You re right, we have two demezzers, it s true
But the point i wanna make is this one :
If you don t have a Pac Healer in your group, you CAN T STUN anyone at range
Does the fact, that healer (and specially pac healer) have AE Stun ,prohibited another mid class to have acces to stun spell?

And just look about numbers:
Albion=>2 classes with stun
Hibernia = 3 classes with stun
Midgard=> 1 classe with stun

It s just a question...no flaming, just asking

Are you kidding me? Healers have 11sec baseline stun. Hib casters have 9 sec baseline stun.

the thing is considered in a 8vs8 scenario most mids grps run 2 healers one is mostly there for mending and cele/demezzing, the other is for cc/rupting/demezzing and also a little healing, healers rely heavly on other classes to peel adds from them since the instants have 10minutes cd and they got no qc. I could think its a little more diificult for midgrps to use casteable stun than for hib grps where the dps casters can stun for themself and also debuff the resist of the stun to make it last longer while healers cant and also wouldnt have time and castspeed for that. Healers are good and when its zerg time sure their ae stuns and singlestuns are great to assisst people but it in 8vs8+ the casteable stun prlly isnt used much anyway. Since they also have lots of other things to worry about like healing/demezzing and mezzing. Meanwhile you also have to consider your postioning really good while keep an eye on the grp bar I would say healer is a really demanding class and certainly one of the classes I never really liked to play because of all the reasons I listed.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 11:08 AM by Sharky04

As a hib caster group you don't have time to do anything. The mid melee train kills a hib caster in 1-2 seconds.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 1:31 PM by opossum12

Luluko wrote:
Sharky04 wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:36 AM
Algarakai wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:19 AM
You re right, we have two demezzers, it s true
But the point i wanna make is this one :
If you don t have a Pac Healer in your group, you CAN T STUN anyone at range
Does the fact, that healer (and specially pac healer) have AE Stun ,prohibited another mid class to have acces to stun spell?

And just look about numbers:
Albion=>2 classes with stun
Hibernia = 3 classes with stun
Midgard=> 1 classe with stun

It s just a question...no flaming, just asking

Are you kidding me? Healers have 11sec baseline stun. Hib casters have 9 sec baseline stun.
the thing is considered in a 8vs8 scenario most mids grps run 2 healers one is mostly there for mending and cele/demezzing, the other is for cc/rupting/demezzing and also a little healing, healers rely heavly on other classes to peel adds from them since the instants have 10minutes cd and they got no qc. I could think its a little more diificult for midgrps to use casteable stun than for hib grps where the dps casters can stun for themself and also debuff the resist of the stun to make it last longer while healers cant and also wouldnt have time and castspeed for that. Healers are good and when its zerg time sure their ae stuns and singlestuns are great to assisst people but it in 8vs8+ the casteable stun prlly isnt used much anyway. Since they also have lots of other things to worry about like healing/demezzing and mezzing. Meanwhile you also have to consider your postioning really good while keep an eye on the grp bar I would say healer is a really demanding class and certainly one of the classes I never really liked to play because of all the reasons I listed.

That’s not really an argument though, saying that the realms are not balanced because a class is difficult to play.

Btw, I’d trade my stun on Eld/ment for a root any day.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 2:12 PM by Sharky04

I will trade my qc and 9 sec stun for 11 sec stun, mezz, and root including instas any time. The pac healer line is the only one with the 3 most powerful cc spells in game. Just compare bard and pac healer.

Bard: mezz, insta mezz
Pac Healer: mezz, insta mezz, stun, insta stun, root

Sat 23 Mar 2019 5:53 PM by Cadebrennus

Well at least Skald has chainmail to balance it out. Bards have reinforced and Minstrels have... shit nvm. Minstrels aren't balanced.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 6:47 PM by wubbl0rz

skald currently is one of the weakest classes. even a naked lvl1 friar can kill a skald. skald should get demez, stun, stoicism and instant amnesia to make it more viable.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by dbeattie71

Algarakai wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:19 AM
You re right, we have two demezzers, it s true
But the point i wanna make is this one :
If you don t have a Pac Healer in your group, you CAN T STUN anyone at range
Does the fact, that healer (and specially pac healer) have AE Stun ,prohibited another mid class to have acces to stun spell?

And just look about numbers:
Albion=>2 classes with stun
Hibernia = 3 classes with stun
Midgard=> 1 classe with stun

It s just a question...no flaming, just asking

How can you not find one? Top 4 classes are usually Skald, Shaman, BD, and Healer. Try finding a bard lol.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:20 AM by teiloh

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 5:53 PM
Well at least Skald has chainmail to balance it out. Bards have reinforced and Minstrels have... shit nvm. Minstrels aren't balanced.

Oh yeah Minstrels just have the weakest damage table and a 1her, Skalds suffer so much, thats why they're so underpop.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 2:48 PM by paqdizzle

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 4:20 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Mar 2019 5:53 PM
Well at least Skald has chainmail to balance it out. Bards have reinforced and Minstrels have... shit nvm. Minstrels aren't balanced.

Oh yeah Minstrels just have the weakest damage table and a 1her, Skalds suffer so much, thats why they're so underpop.

can't they just grab a red pet for damage? lmfao if you're playing your mini for "Melee Damage" you picked the wrong class.
Doesn't mean they can't do damage, just that they already have so many tricks for damage output... they don't need Melee damage.

On another note, you're straight trippin' if you think skalds are used for anything other than their speed as the main purpose in RvR, sure they can interrupt too and minimal to decent Melee damage. but no....- Mid side plays skald for speed first XD as sad as it may be, that's ALL I HEAR... we need "Speed"... Not we need interrupts, let's grab a skald.. Not like a Mini who could be apart of several group builds, visible or non visi.. they work well, and get a nasty Pet, Druids... well we all know what tools druids/bards get..How come we aren't talking about that? lol that's the most annoying..

you can't look at who plays what the most on this server due to class traits. Oh would you look at that Druids are the most played right now last night it was Bards, the day before that was BDs and necros.. Doesn't mean they are the most OP, it's just that in PvP- if Hibbies don't run with at least 2 or 3 bards/druids they don't PvP lolol period... In PvE we all know what you need in your group

so who plays what at whatever time is irrelevant.

If anyone has ever played a skald as apposed to other realms speed classes, you already know you're gimp by comparison to those other realm's Speed classes it's a joke. and the reason behind that "Balance" is simple that the skald can use 2h for more damage than a Mini's melee damage, which is cool and everything but what are you gonna do about that red pet? XD now it's 2v1 and if you're not on your P's and Q's you're dead with ease. I've done it on my mini entirely too often XD sorry

But yeah I'd like to see skalds get some love other than their speed. a Demez would be cool but all that really needs adjusted is Power cost on some abilities that are OP.

Sun 24 Mar 2019 3:01 PM by Blitze

Skalds are currently the class with the most rr5s at 203 which is almost 10 times as many as their are hunters, SMs, friars, reavers, wizards, VWs, wardens. This speaks volumes about how popular and powerful they are.

I do not think it would be a valuable use of the Devs time or help class balance to buff/improve skalds.