How to solve Archery issues in 3 steps

It’s simple

The single most important change is the crit timer needs to go away along with bringing back the ability to automatically reload and fire additional crit shots, BUT in doing this you must bring back the mechanic that prevents a crit on a moving target

Allow haste spells from potions and buffs to work on bow. Bow speed mechanic here is the same exact formula as melee swing speed (I’ve tested this extensively), but melee swing gets mastery of arms AND they can use haste pots.. bow should be no different since it’s the same formula (the reason why a lot of people say bow damage sucks is because they are probably forced to use rapid shot or faster bows all the time)

Stealth needs an overhaul, and to solve this overhaul dev’s, you either add old MOS (with the detection abilities that scale based on stealth (( just like it is now for movement just add increased detection ), so investing in high stealth will likely gimp a stealthers utility but would be worth the cost for some )) or simply re add camo, true sight, or detect/see hidden as expensive RA’s available for ALL stealth classes to buy

Boom! Problems solved
[drops mic]

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:28 AM by AngelRose

No thanks

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:27 AM by noflex

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:28 AM
No thanks

Wow folks end the thread now, we got a winner here! Such great constructive feedback, must have taken you awhile to come up with this reply eh?

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:33 AM by Ceen

Live like stealth, MoS and crit shot and we are good to go.
They tried their own balancing within the stealth game and it didnt work out.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:48 AM by Luluko

noflex wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:27 AM
AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:28 AM
No thanks

Wow folks end the thread now, we got a winner here! Such great constructive feedback, must have taken you awhile to come up with this reply eh?

when you just throw out ideas and dont consider the impact and negatives for other classes just to get archers boosted that are the responses you will get. Just because melees have melee speed pots doesnt automatically make it a good idea that it should affect archery, also you know archers can also go melee it sucks for a reason tho or it would make any tank which only has melee useless.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 8:58 AM by inoeth

"prevent crits on moving targets"

please noo, that would only benfit scouts LOL
all other archers can basicly remove the crit shot button from qbar....

Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:25 AM by jelzinga_EU

A bit more and different steps :

* Give incentive to spec higher than 35 Archery
* Make bow-damage bigger on higher AF targets
* Remove block-bonus to archery from Shield-spec, remove Engage working on archery
* Equalize range across all 3 realms, give Midgard also 5.5 speed bows
* Make penetrating arrow work on self-casted BT at a lower dmg % (e.g. at 40, 45 and 50 Archery you penetrate self-BT for 25% - 35% - 45%)
* Give archer Sure Shot (half dmg, not interruptable by ranged)
* Reintroduce travel-time of arrows but a bit faster than it was in beta (e.g. 0.5-1,0 sec travel-time for 2000 range or something)
* Put Truesight RA back to game
* Give archers access to PD

Thu 21 Mar 2019 12:24 PM by Dragonn

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:25 AM
A bit more and different steps :

* Give incentive to spec higher than 35 Archery
* Make bow-damage bigger on higher AF targets
* Remove block-bonus to archery from Shield-spec, remove Engage working on archery
* Equalize range across all 3 realms, give Midgard also 5.5 speed bows
* Make penetrating arrow work on self-casted BT at a lower dmg % (e.g. at 40, 45 and 50 Archery you penetrate self-BT for 25% - 35% - 45%)
* Give archer Sure Shot (half dmg, not interruptable by ranged)
* Reintroduce travel-time of arrows but a bit faster than it was in beta (e.g. 0.5-1,0 sec travel-time for 2000 range or something)
* Put Truesight RA back to game
* Give archers access to PD

All ok but not pd

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:13 PM by Horus

I think the critshot mechanic is fine personally..almost RR6 Ranger here.

My two cents in before lock for what is worth after playing both high bow spec and then respeccing to lower bow and more melee...

1. Normalize stealth detection range for assassins and archers (no detect range bonus for assassins).
2. Increase the amount of the buffs in PF and Beastcraft lines.
3. Allow Master of Arms affect bow shot speed as well as Master of Archery
4. Create something to benefit high bow spec. Maybe an additional dmg add at 45 or 50 bow spec.
6. Normalize all armor/shield reactive dmg procs to 300 units.

I don't know how the bow dmg formula works but something is just off...there is just a severe dmg drop off sometimes...even against cloth casters. I don't know if it is AF buffs or charges or what but way too often even at 59 combined bow and 311 dex I was hitting cloth casters with a 5.5 speed bow for around 200 and other classes for less than that even when using the correct arrows. I don't think it was ablative as you get a message for that...I feel like it is level related because find a level 48 or 49 class and the bow hits as I would expect. In the BGs the dmg seems correct as well against equal lev targets.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:55 PM by cere2

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 2:13 PM
I think the critshot mechanic is fine personally..almost RR6 Ranger here.

My two cents in before lock for what is worth after playing both high bow spec and then respeccing to lower bow and more melee...

1. Normalize stealth detection range for assassins and archers (no detect range bonus for assassins).
2. Increase the amount of the buffs in PF and Beastcraft lines.
3. Allow Master of Arms affect bow shot speed as well as Master of Archery
4. Create something to benefit high bow spec. Maybe an additional dmg add at 45 or 50 bow spec.
6. Normalize all armor/shield reactive dmg procs to 300 units.

I don't know how the bow dmg formula works but something is just off...there is just a severe dmg drop off sometimes...even against cloth casters. I don't know if it is AF buffs or charges or what but way too often even at 59 combined bow and 311 dex I was hitting cloth casters with a 5.5 speed bow for around 200 and other classes for less than that even when using the correct arrows. I don't think it was ablative as you get a message for that...I feel like it is level related because find a level 48 or 49 class and the bow hits as I would expect. In the BGs the dmg seems correct as well against equal lev targets.

Lol before it gets locked. Seems a common thing lately doesn't it.
I agree with almost all. Especially #1, and #6.
#1 Yes, why should assassin's see archers beforehand for free? Makes absolutely no sense at all.
#2 is just pointless unless they were to make significant changes it still wouldn't be worth that amount of spec points. Only made sense when others did not have access to buffs...thus the reason it was completely removed from Live.
#3 A better question should be, why does quickness affect bow speed rather than dex?
#4 Agreed, something that gives more damage or maybe some type of growth rate.
#6 Who else can fire a shot and be interrupted immediately from stealth. Only archers.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:00 PM by Waygone

Imo, camo and truesight on 5 or 10 min CD would at least give archers a CHANCE, once in a while against assassins
/shrug

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:30 PM by jelzinga_EU

Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:00 PM
Imo, camo and truesight on 5 or 10 min CD would at least give archers a CHANCE, once in a while against assassins
/shrug

Truesight on 5 or 10 mins CD wouldn't give them a chance, it would be impossible to play an assassin. With only a handful of archers you could keep "perma truesight" up.

30 mins timer or nothing.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:48 PM by HtGeist

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:30 PM
Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:00 PM
Imo, camo and truesight on 5 or 10 min CD would at least give archers a CHANCE, once in a while against assassins
/shrug

Truesight on 5 or 10 mins CD wouldn't give them a chance, it would be impossible to play an assassin. With only a handful of archers you could keep "perma truesight" up.

30 mins timer or nothing.

Same timer as vanish,you assasins all agreed that is a balanced RA...

Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:28 PM by Sepplord

HtGeist wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:48 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:30 PM
Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:00 PM
Imo, camo and truesight on 5 or 10 min CD would at least give archers a CHANCE, once in a while against assassins
/shrug

Truesight on 5 or 10 mins CD wouldn't give them a chance, it would be impossible to play an assassin. With only a handful of archers you could keep "perma truesight" up.

30 mins timer or nothing.
Same timer as vanish,you assasins all agreed that is a balanced RA...

and you do not see the difference between an RA that lets you uncover potentially 5-10stealthers from range, VS one that gives a single assassin a chance to flee combat?

Here's an example for something comparable/counter to vanish:
introduce truesight, make it only work VS disarmed targets (aka ones that have vanished)

PS: not saying that would "fix" archers, imo before working on solutions, the problem needs to be defined clearly, and so far the archer-community hasn't come to a consense regarding that. Some want nothing, some want better bowstuff to spec for, and some want to keep all range goodies and get comparable melee to assassins

Thu 21 Mar 2019 4:36 PM by Cadebrennus

Just remove self casted Bladeturn and Nearsight. Neither one was in game until botted Archers started killing unbuffed Casters. /face was also introduced into the game specifically to deal with Archers. Archery damage was also nerfed with the assumption that Archers had buffs and no one else did.

1.65 still had these Archer nerfs in game despite most people being buffed by group members or bots at this point. Roll back the Archer nerfs by doing the following and Archery will be balanced again:
1) boost Archery damage back to pre-nerf levels
2) remove self casted BT
3) remove nearsight

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:09 PM by kedelin

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:30 PM
Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:00 PM
Imo, camo and truesight on 5 or 10 min CD would at least give archers a CHANCE, once in a while against assassins
/shrug

Truesight on 5 or 10 mins CD wouldn't give them a chance, it would be impossible to play an assassin. With only a handful of archers you could keep "perma truesight" up.

30 mins timer or nothing.

So your saying once every 30 mins I can have a shot at not getting peeved on a hunter??? You act like ever bow class runs in a grouo

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:15 PM by jelzinga_EU

kedelin wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:09 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:30 PM
Waygone wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:00 PM
Imo, camo and truesight on 5 or 10 min CD would at least give archers a CHANCE, once in a while against assassins
/shrug

Truesight on 5 or 10 mins CD wouldn't give them a chance, it would be impossible to play an assassin. With only a handful of archers you could keep "perma truesight" up.

30 mins timer or nothing.
So your saying once every 30 mins I can have a shot at not getting peeved on a hunter??? You act like ever bow class runs in a grouo

No, I posted a list of possible enhancements added to archery/archers . The problem with putting TS on a 5 mins timer is that you make stealth almost useless near any chokepoint / MG / large scale fight.

Please have a look at the list I posted before you tell me I don't want archery to be viable. I simply want to avoid a situation where the proverbial "fg of scouts" can ruin the fun 24/7 for everyone else ; including other (solo-) archers.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:32 PM by Pirhana7

I think Camo is the big thing archers need.

I think the next step would be to combine the buff lines into the archery line and give scouts access to it like they got later on. This would give reasons to spec higher in archery as you would be gaining strong self buffs and this could be done easier since you don't need to spec both skill lines like you do now. this would also leave more skill points free to put into melee skills to help there with survivability. Archers would be gaining stronger self buffs and a little bit more melee skills to help survivability.

If you want to take the self buffs a step further give them the 75/75 dex/qui buff like they got a little further down the road in patches. Even if the only specced for the yellow buff it would still be higher than the red charge.

Personally I would also love to see Dodger for archers.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:56 PM by Dominus

meh, just give all stealth classes except minstrel the same stealth detection range. No advantage of Sins to see archers first.. level that playing field first, then continue with the rest.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:31 PM by Mavella

Giving rangers access to PD will 100% make me quit the server. I dealt with the celt/shar PD stacking blade ranger zerg on Uthgard and hitting them for 55-75 mainhand damage is a total joke. If they have even IP1 up I know I would have 0% chance to kill one.

On to some other points

Rangers can 100% spec to be successful in Melee and I've had some extremely close fights with equal RR rangers in the past that have literally come down to 1 swing.

You rarely see scouts play intelligently with their shield and try and bait out purges with numb. Half the ones i run into don't even attempt melee combat when they have high shield and evade 3. If I have purge down its generally GG as I'll eat an 800 critshot to the face and likely follow up before slam stun creating an HP deficit that's almost impossible to come back from. I've also fought scouts in straight up melee that obviously knew what they were doing and it literally came down to 1 swing again.

Hunters on the other hand are clearly lacking compared to their counterparts from my perspective.

To all those bitching about 35 archery being all you need, BE THANKFUL. You get a ton of utility out of that for relative minimal investment allowing you to boost your melee capabilities to more than competitive levels by RR5. Sorry you're not going to get to drop most classes before they even have a chance to react/reach you. How is that balanced when you can sit up hills/behind trees that don't block LOS. This server does not need archer pairs coordinating crit shots dropping anything that dare move in RvR in <5 seconds or adding onto fights from extreme range insta-gibbing people.

I'll say the same thing to all these archers that I do to whining LA users. LEARN TO PLAY/SPEC/GEAR. Stop sitting in high traffic areas after you score a few kills, its obvious people are going to start hunting you. Stop ganking grays giving away your location. Pick targets intelligently. Etc. Learn to use the tools your class is given

I will say I have no issue with reducing the range at which assassins can see archers maybe not to total parity but drop it 25-50 range so its not so easy for assassins to line up perfs almost 100% of the time. Make the assassin work for it.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:43 PM by noflex

Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:31 PM
or adding onto fights from extreme range insta-gibbing people.

but but but.. that's my ranger's name

but seriously these are all good points everyone is making. It's quite apparent that something needs to happen since the current state of archery needs a boost

IMO archery should have been dealt with before giving friars additional healing abilities (and I have a R5+ friar)

Hopefully they will address archery and stealth as their next delve into balancing the game

Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:26 PM by Tillbeast

Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:31 PM
Giving rangers access to PD will 100% make me quit the server. I dealt with the celt/shar PD stacking blade ranger zerg on Uthgard and hitting them for 55-75 mainhand damage is a total joke. If they have even IP1 up I know I would have 0% chance to kill one.

On to some other points

Rangers can 100% spec to be successful in Melee and I've had some extremely close fights with equal RR rangers in the past that have literally come down to 1 swing.

You rarely see scouts play intelligently with their shield and try and bait out purges with numb. Half the ones i run into don't even attempt melee combat when they have high shield and evade 3. If I have purge down its generally GG as I'll eat an 800 critshot to the face and likely follow up before slam stun creating an HP deficit that's almost impossible to come back from. I've also fought scouts in straight up melee that obviously knew what they were doing and it literally came down to 1 swing again.

Hunters on the other hand are clearly lacking compared to their counterparts from my perspective.

To all those bitching about 35 archery being all you need, BE THANKFUL. You get a ton of utility out of that for relative minimal investment allowing you to boost your melee capabilities to more than competitive levels by RR5. Sorry you're not going to get to drop most classes before they even have a chance to react/reach you. How is that balanced when you can sit up hills/behind trees that don't block LOS. This server does not need archer pairs coordinating crit shots dropping anything that dare move in RvR in <5 seconds or adding onto fights from extreme range insta-gibbing people.

I'll say the same thing to all these archers that I do to whining LA users. LEARN TO PLAY/SPEC/GEAR. Stop sitting in high traffic areas after you score a few kills, its obvious people are going to start hunting you. Stop ganking grays giving away your location. Pick targets intelligently. Etc. Learn to use the tools your class is given

I will say I have no issue with reducing the range at which assassins can see archers maybe not to total parity but drop it 25-50 range so its not so easy for assassins to line up perfs almost 100% of the time. Make the assassin work for it.

The argument of do not go to high traffic areas is rather silly. The only areas in the game are high traffic ones, the rvr task system works that way. An archer could go to a area where 46-49 are xping but those are hardly busy areas. Once you force archers into the rvr task zones they are just free rp's for assassins out there, there is no way archers can avoid assassins. The way the task system work is you either get ganked with no way of avoided the PA at milegates or you hope you are lucky when you teleport to flag and get through the enemy stealthers that are looking for archers moving out from flag. In new frontiers your argument helds some weight as it was much bigger and less choke points but in OF with the task zones compressing the action it is very difficult to survive. My rr4.2 hunter is forced to hunt non 50 low rr xpers to get a semi reliable stream of rps as the task zone areas are too busy, lack of suitable (low rr clothe casters) and all routes are patrolled by assassins. Yes I can go of route to hunt but there is nothing there to hunt.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:36 PM by Riac

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:26 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:31 PM
Giving rangers access to PD will 100% make me quit the server. I dealt with the celt/shar PD stacking blade ranger zerg on Uthgard and hitting them for 55-75 mainhand damage is a total joke. If they have even IP1 up I know I would have 0% chance to kill one.

On to some other points

Rangers can 100% spec to be successful in Melee and I've had some extremely close fights with equal RR rangers in the past that have literally come down to 1 swing.

You rarely see scouts play intelligently with their shield and try and bait out purges with numb. Half the ones i run into don't even attempt melee combat when they have high shield and evade 3. If I have purge down its generally GG as I'll eat an 800 critshot to the face and likely follow up before slam stun creating an HP deficit that's almost impossible to come back from. I've also fought scouts in straight up melee that obviously knew what they were doing and it literally came down to 1 swing again.

Hunters on the other hand are clearly lacking compared to their counterparts from my perspective.

To all those bitching about 35 archery being all you need, BE THANKFUL. You get a ton of utility out of that for relative minimal investment allowing you to boost your melee capabilities to more than competitive levels by RR5. Sorry you're not going to get to drop most classes before they even have a chance to react/reach you. How is that balanced when you can sit up hills/behind trees that don't block LOS. This server does not need archer pairs coordinating crit shots dropping anything that dare move in RvR in <5 seconds or adding onto fights from extreme range insta-gibbing people.

I'll say the same thing to all these archers that I do to whining LA users. LEARN TO PLAY/SPEC/GEAR. Stop sitting in high traffic areas after you score a few kills, its obvious people are going to start hunting you. Stop ganking grays giving away your location. Pick targets intelligently. Etc. Learn to use the tools your class is given

I will say I have no issue with reducing the range at which assassins can see archers maybe not to total parity but drop it 25-50 range so its not so easy for assassins to line up perfs almost 100% of the time. Make the assassin work for it.

The argument of do not go to high traffic areas is rather silly. The only areas in the game are high traffic ones, the rvr task system works that way. An archer could go to a area where 46-49 are xping but those are hardly busy areas. Once you force archers into the rvr task zones they are just free rp's for assassins out there, there is no way archers can avoid assassins. The way the task system work is you either get ganked with no way of avoided the PA at milegates or you hope you are lucky when you teleport to flag and get through the enemy stealthers that are looking for archers moving out from flag. In new frontiers your argument helds some weight as it was much bigger and less choke points but in OF with the task zones compressing the action it is very difficult to survive. My rr4.2 hunter is forced to hunt non 50 low rr xpers to get a semi reliable stream of rps as the task zone areas are too busy, lack of suitable (low rr clothe casters) and all routes are patrolled by assassins. Yes I can go of route to hunt but there is nothing there to hunt.

i think the misunderstanding here is what is meant by "high traffic area". when i said it i meant places like the mouth of mg, or on top of mg, or by the thimble where ppl turn stuff in. you cant just label a whole zone a high traffic area. think of them more like a street or a fishing hole, stealthers take certain routes and look in certain areas. if you go in these areas and get mixed up in melee combat thats a bit on you.

and i felt the pain of being low rr and having to prey on levelers or non temped ppl. NS would eat me alive and still do. to combat that, i hunt albs and generally dont go near areas i think have a high chance of being populated by NS and rangers.

as an archer you have huge range, sit up on the hill and you can hit anyone down below, you can generally get off 2-3 shots before they even know which direction you are shooting from.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:58 PM by AngelRose

noflex wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:27 AM
AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:28 AM
No thanks

Wow folks end the thread now, we got a winner here! Such great constructive feedback, must have taken you awhile to come up with this reply eh?

It is all your ideas deserved. The crit shot idea is stupid and only helps scouts

Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:04 PM by Tillbeast

Only bad people don't know what the /face then /quickcast and random interrupting spell button is for. The fighting is always concentrated in either flags, hand ins or the routes between the flags or around mile gates. Everything else is dead. Of course you don't visit those chokepoints like the mg or thimble but the concentrated amount of players in that small area makes it hard for an archer to survive.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:10 PM by Riac

Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:04 PM
Only bad people don't know what the /face then /quickcast and random interrupting spell button is for. The fighting is always concentrated in either flags, hand ins or the routes between the flags or around mile gates. Everything else is dead. Of course you don't visit those chokepoints like the mg or thimble but the concentrated amount of players in that small area makes it hard for an archer to survive.

considering archers can outrange most of these spells, seems a bit moot. you'd be surprised at the amount of scouts i find walking around these spot and i thank them for it. although most of the time an inf isnt too far from them anyways. as for rangers, i generally try to avoid them unless its like a brehon or somthing, those dudes can be hardasses.

i generally dont mess with the flag stuff, i like hunting at the mgs mainly.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 10:12 PM by Mavella

I already stated I think hunters are by far worse off than scouts and rangers in melee and their archery seems to be behind as well from what I understand.

I also conceded that it shouldn't be quite so easy to spot and line up perfs on archers but I do think assassins should still have a slight edge in detection range.

Unfortunately being sub RR5 is painful for us all. It gets better when you add more tools aka lower cooldown purge higher IP and more damage passive. In my mind getting rr5 was always just what laid the foundation and getting to r6+ is really where you started to feel stronger.

Also when I talk about high traffic areas it's obviously going to be near flags, task item turn ins, mile gates, portal keeps. It's fine to score a small number of kills in one of these areas but you HAVE to move after. I can't tell you how many times I've died only to come back and find someone that killed me sitting in the same area except now my purge is up and I smash them. This is what I'm talking about with stupid game play. When you play predictaby expect to get found and murdered.

Thu 21 Mar 2019 11:29 PM by Tamy

As a RR5 scout who is overall really enjoying the game (solo/duo) I would suggest (as someone else already did) to remove the stealth advantage from sins (or put it at 40+ stealth) and work from there.

It's just annoying to get a PA out of nowhere or getting pulled out of stealth near a zerg only due to the fact that the sin has double detect range and has not to work for his PA at all.

Second step would be to give some incentives for speccing 35+ bow.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 AM by waffel

RR5 active ranger here. Assassins already have a superior advantage over archers in melee combat, so I don’t see the stealth detect range advantage as needed anymore. It should be equaled out, or AT MOST 50units more than archer.

Other than that, I’m enjoying myself quite a bit. However, I almost always avoid the task realm and do most of my hunting in snowdonia or uppland. Every time I do the task zone/mile gate stuff it’s never fun and is 90% running around and 10% getting smashed by assassins at every turn.

I don’t see the new keep changes as helping much due to sins swarming the walls. It’ll take NF keeps to help in that regard.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:01 AM by Cadebrennus

Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:36 PM
Tillbeast wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:26 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:31 PM
Giving rangers access to PD will 100% make me quit the server. I dealt with the celt/shar PD stacking blade ranger zerg on Uthgard and hitting them for 55-75 mainhand damage is a total joke. If they have even IP1 up I know I would have 0% chance to kill one.

On to some other points

Rangers can 100% spec to be successful in Melee and I've had some extremely close fights with equal RR rangers in the past that have literally come down to 1 swing.

You rarely see scouts play intelligently with their shield and try and bait out purges with numb. Half the ones i run into don't even attempt melee combat when they have high shield and evade 3. If I have purge down its generally GG as I'll eat an 800 critshot to the face and likely follow up before slam stun creating an HP deficit that's almost impossible to come back from. I've also fought scouts in straight up melee that obviously knew what they were doing and it literally came down to 1 swing again.

Hunters on the other hand are clearly lacking compared to their counterparts from my perspective.

To all those bitching about 35 archery being all you need, BE THANKFUL. You get a ton of utility out of that for relative minimal investment allowing you to boost your melee capabilities to more than competitive levels by RR5. Sorry you're not going to get to drop most classes before they even have a chance to react/reach you. How is that balanced when you can sit up hills/behind trees that don't block LOS. This server does not need archer pairs coordinating crit shots dropping anything that dare move in RvR in <5 seconds or adding onto fights from extreme range insta-gibbing people.

I'll say the same thing to all these archers that I do to whining LA users. LEARN TO PLAY/SPEC/GEAR. Stop sitting in high traffic areas after you score a few kills, its obvious people are going to start hunting you. Stop ganking grays giving away your location. Pick targets intelligently. Etc. Learn to use the tools your class is given

I will say I have no issue with reducing the range at which assassins can see archers maybe not to total parity but drop it 25-50 range so its not so easy for assassins to line up perfs almost 100% of the time. Make the assassin work for it.

The argument of do not go to high traffic areas is rather silly. The only areas in the game are high traffic ones, the rvr task system works that way. An archer could go to a area where 46-49 are xping but those are hardly busy areas. Once you force archers into the rvr task zones they are just free rp's for assassins out there, there is no way archers can avoid assassins. The way the task system work is you either get ganked with no way of avoided the PA at milegates or you hope you are lucky when you teleport to flag and get through the enemy stealthers that are looking for archers moving out from flag. In new frontiers your argument helds some weight as it was much bigger and less choke points but in OF with the task zones compressing the action it is very difficult to survive. My rr4.2 hunter is forced to hunt non 50 low rr xpers to get a semi reliable stream of rps as the task zone areas are too busy, lack of suitable (low rr clothe casters) and all routes are patrolled by assassins. Yes I can go of route to hunt but there is nothing there to hunt.

i think the misunderstanding here is what is meant by "high traffic area". when i said it i meant places like the mouth of mg, or on top of mg, or by the thimble where ppl turn stuff in. you cant just label a whole zone a high traffic area. think of them more like a street or a fishing hole, stealthers take certain routes and look in certain areas. if you go in these areas and get mixed up in melee combat thats a bit on you.

and i felt the pain of being low rr and having to prey on levelers or non temped ppl. NS would eat me alive and still do. to combat that, i hunt albs and generally dont go near areas i think have a high chance of being populated by NS and rangers.

as an archer you have huge range, sit up on the hill and you can hit anyone down below, you can generally get off 2-3 shots before they even know which direction you are shooting from.

Two things:

/face
Learn how to use it.

/groundset 500
/groundset 600
/groundset 700

Those are the distance differences between a Hunter, a Ranger, and a Scout, respectively

Once you do the /groundset command and actually see what those ranges look like you will realise it's not as big of an advantage that you thought it was.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:06 AM by noflex

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:58 PM
noflex wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:27 AM
AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 5:28 AM
No thanks

Wow folks end the thread now, we got a winner here! Such great constructive feedback, must have taken you awhile to come up with this reply eh?

It is all your ideas deserved. The crit shot idea is stupid and only helps scouts

It’s how crit shot was and is on the other freeshard and it works beautifully for all archers

Not everyone is constantly moving, people stop to cast spells and stop once they see they are taking damage to look for their attacker you know, it doesn’t just benefit scouts.. and if you have purge up it’s gg for the scout

Think about in RL, an archer in a perch hunting wild game is gonna wait til the prey stops to graze before they shoot a precision crit shot

Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:39 AM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:01 AM
/groundset 500
/groundset 600
/groundset 700

Those are the distance differences between a Hunter, a Ranger, and a Scout, respectively

Once you do the /groundset command and actually see what those ranges look like you will realise it's not as big of an advantage that you thought it was.

a) The range (and the disparity in it) gets multiplied the moment any elevation comes into play. A smart archer always uses elevation to it's advantage.

b) Hunters suffer in range but also in damage. Being limited to a bow with 5.0 speed means you take out quite a bit of oomph on a shot. Then imagine that missing part is multiplied by 2 due to critshot-mechanics (=essentially a normal shot with guaranteed 100% crit) AND the lesser range it becomes quite obvious.

Don't get me started with DPS and faster bows: A very large part of archery comes from the "surprise" attack that suddenly you have an arrow sticking out of you. Frontload on archery is very very important. If you suddenly take off 10-15% of the initial damage and 10% of the initial range it matters. A LOT.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:17 AM by Cadebrennus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:39 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 5:01 AM
/groundset 500
/groundset 600
/groundset 700

Those are the distance differences between a Hunter, a Ranger, and a Scout, respectively

Once you do the /groundset command and actually see what those ranges look like you will realise it's not as big of an advantage that you thought it was.

a) The range (and the disparity in it) gets multiplied the moment any elevation comes into play. A smart archer always uses elevation to it's advantage.

b) Hunters suffer in range but also in damage. Being limited to a bow with 5.0 speed means you take out quite a bit of oomph on a shot. Then imagine that missing part is multiplied by 2 due to critshot-mechanics (=essentially a normal shot with guaranteed 100% crit) AND the lesser range it becomes quite obvious.

Don't get me started with DPS and faster bows: A very large part of archery comes from the "surprise" attack that suddenly you have an arrow sticking out of you. Frontload on archery is very very important. If you suddenly take off 10-15% of the initial damage and 10% of the initial range it matters. A LOT.

If you don't know the actual numbers regarding balance between the Archer classes (including melee) I'm not going to bother getting into them with you. Do some research.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:36 AM by inoeth

noflex wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 6:06 AM
AngelRose wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:58 PM
noflex wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 6:27 AM
Wow folks end the thread now, we got a winner here! Such great constructive feedback, must have taken you awhile to come up with this reply eh?

It is all your ideas deserved. The crit shot idea is stupid and only helps scouts

It’s how crit shot was and is on the other freeshard and it works beautifully for all archers

Not everyone is constantly moving, people stop to cast spells and stop once they see they are taking damage to look for their attacker you know, it doesn’t just benefit scouts.. and if you have purge up it’s gg for the scout

Think about in RL, an archer in a perch hunting wild game is gonna wait til the prey stops to graze before they shoot a precision crit shot

no it only works good for scouts... there is a reason this feature got removed with archer revamp on live
back in the days i didnt even have the critshot icon on my qbar with my hunter, because it was nearly impossible to get that off.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:47 AM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:17 AM
If you don't know the actual numbers regarding balance between the Archer classes (including melee) I'm not going to bother getting into them with you. Do some research.

Seriously, Cadebrennus.... it's like beating on a dead horse.

The fact is hunters do not have the same speed available on their bows as rangers (and scouts). To add insult, they also get lower range.

Fact: Scouts have 2200 range, Rangers 2100 range and Hunters 2000 range (assuming Heavy bows with Flight arrows)
Fact: Hunters do not have the same speed of bows available to them as rangers and scouts do,

You keep saying "it is not much". You can play down everything we throw at you, 25% evade/block reduction for CD, 5-10% range, 10-15% frontload-damage everything "is not a big deal" or "please provide proof" to you. As one of the highest RR Rangers on Prydwen(EU) back in the days you do not need to educate me about archers, archery in any way.

The fact is also your playstyle is completely different than that to most other stealthers: You generally try to run some strange spec which "works well" in groups but is absolutely useless for a typical stealther. I do not criticize you for that, as everyone is allowed to play any way he likes. It just is a different playstyle than most stealthers play and as such your opinions are often not very relevant to the majority of stealthers.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:30 AM by jhaerik

Live has basically every buff listed here,

It's ---------------------> way.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Mar 2019 9:25 AM
A bit more and different steps :

* Give incentive to spec higher than 35 Archery
* Make bow-damage bigger on higher AF targets
* Remove block-bonus to archery from Shield-spec, remove Engage working on archery
* Equalize range across all 3 realms, give Midgard also 5.5 speed bows
* Make penetrating arrow work on self-casted BT at a lower dmg % (e.g. at 40, 45 and 50 Archery you penetrate self-BT for 25% - 35% - 45%)
* Give archer Sure Shot (half dmg, not interruptable by ranged)
* Reintroduce travel-time of arrows but a bit faster than it was in beta (e.g. 0.5-1,0 sec travel-time for 2000 range or something)
* Put Truesight RA back to game
* Give archers access to PD

* Give incentive to spec higher than 35 Archery - Agree'd there should be a reason to invest in bow above level 35
* Make bow-damage bigger on higher AF targets - Disagree, this makes no sense. There is no reason a higher AF target should receive increased bow damage because of their access to stronger armor? No.
* Remove block-bonus to archery from Shield-spec, remove Engage working on archery - No. If you shoot at a target utilizing a shield you better anticipate they understand how engage works.
* Equalize range across all 3 realms, give Midgard also 5.5 speed bows - No. The there is absolutely no reason to try and mirror the archtypes, I don't understand why people are so fixated on this. Each archer type has different utility/capabilities (I.E., beastcraft/spear/2h, pathfinding/dual wield, shield)
* Make penetrating arrow work on self-casted BT at a lower dmg % (e.g. at 40, 45 and 50 Archery you penetrate self-BT for 25% - 35% - 45%) - Agree'd there should be a return value for investing as a "sniper" archer. You won't be able to perform as well in melee as a hybrid and therefore should have the bow strength/utility to account for that
* Give archer Sure Shot (half dmg, not interruptable by ranged) - No. There is a reason archers kite, giving them an uninterruptible ability is absolutely ridiculous
* Reintroduce travel-time of arrows but a bit faster than it was in beta (e.g. 0.5-1,0 sec travel-time for 2000 range or something) - I like the concept of travel time for arrows. If the physics are already implemented in the game code then this would be a benefit to allow long range/high bow archers the ability to have a second shot nearly ready to fire by the time crit shot reaches the target, allowing the archer to get another shot off into a target by the time they're identified.
* Put Truesight RA back to game - Kinda indifferent on this one
* Give archers access to PD - No simply because archers already have a natural defense in the form of stealth. PD was overpowered on archers and was subsequently removed. It does not belong on them.

I like some of your ideas. I agree that their should be a beneficial return for high bow investment as you're certainly going to sacrifice melee dps capability by speccing high into bow (as should be the case).

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:38 PM by cere2

The problem with archers right now is we are taking PA's with no ability to do anything about it. It's too ez for assassins to line up PA on archer right now, and unless your a heavy or high output hybrid, your starting the fight at a huge disadvantage. And if no purge...night night.

As I have said before, make both 250 detection. Archer won't have time to get shot off, but may be able to turn sideways to avoid a PA, thus giving them a fighting chance.

Bow damage is fine, Crit shot, should go through personal BT but not pop it. Like we used to have to do in classic...Crit, then rapid to pop bubble then either stay on rapid or switch to standard, which typically you were interrupted by then anyhow. Crit shot was made to be your opener, the chance to come out of stealth while making this shot was the oh *&%$ factor in it.

Also, crit shot fired while in stealth should not be blockable. Put a recast timer on it (20) sec, make it pierce but not pop BT and unblockable.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:45 PM by Amp_Phetamine

cere2 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:38 PM
The problem with archers right now is we are taking PA's with no ability to do anything about it. It's too ez for assassins to line up PA on archer right now, and unless your a heavy or high output hybrid, your starting the fight at a huge disadvantage. And if no purge...night night.

As I have said before, make both 250 detection. Archer won't have time to get shot off, but may be able to turn sideways to avoid a PA, thus giving them a fighting chance.

Bow damage is fine, Crit shot, should go through personal BT but not pop it. Like we used to have to do in classic...Crit, then rapid to pop bubble then either stay on rapid or switch to standard, which typically you were interrupted by then anyhow. Crit shot was made to be your opener, the chance to come out of stealth while making this shot was the oh *&%$ factor in it.

Also, crit shot fired while in stealth should not be blockable. Put a recast timer on it (20) sec, make it pierce but not pop BT and unblockable.

Why not re-introduce camouflage at 50 bow? Obviously if you're bow specced you're going to want to be more proficient at staying hidden. Why not add camouflage back to archers that train 50 points into bow.

Of course the bow line needs additional tweaking to make speccing into it over level 35 actually worth it, which I'm certain the Dev's are in the process of contemplating.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I also agree with your view point on how crit shot should function.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:45 PM by noflex

Remove the 3 second rupt timer

With no moc or quickcast like casters how is it fair that when shooting at 1.5s speed I have to wait 3s PLUS 1.5s to shoot my next shot

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:46 PM by Amp_Phetamine

noflex wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:45 PM
Remove the 3 second rupt timer

With no moc or anything like casters how is it fair that when shooting at 1.5s speed I have to wait 3s PLUS 1.5s to shoot my next shot

Try kiting out the 3s.