Balancing the friar - Phoenix Freeshard

I know you guys made custom change to it already but he is far from being viable in group at this moment.

Albion is the worst realm in terms of utility classes.

Compare mid group or hib group where they can easily bring an aug healer/shaman or hib druid/warden

on albion the friar is the worst when it comes to utility :
terrible styles growth rate and utility (3 chain styles to get a side stun).
not enough points to spec appropriately and get red resists/decent healer + staff
can not buff haste only the insta cele in timer
can not bring utility such as reduc endo/proc heal group

my differents suggestions:
give him more points so he could go 48res/43heal/34staff
give him a side stun style or in the second style (instead of the third...)

this would allow not to make game breaking change, will give him more chance to be viable in certain setup.

classic does not mean everything was perfect, there were a lot of balance issues

Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 AM by Ashok

/moving to suggestion sub

We are aware that certain classes or class types need some attention.
Since we do not strife to be a "classic 1.65 server" but to deliver the best experience for all instead, we are open for suggestions.

Currently we are discussing changes for the 3 archer classes to make them more appealing and align their potential.
Weaker classes like the Friar are are on the radar, but only 1 major change at a time.

So keep posting suggestion how they can be changed; maybe to align them to the opposing realms counterparts or things that Mythic added later on live etc.
We will look into it.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 11:09 AM by Blitze

From my little experience friars are not in a great place here...And

Balancing a friar comes in two flavours: solo and grping and you do not want to render them OP soloers with too many gro buffs.

Firstly I believe friars are ok soloers and slightly below par against your standard buffpotted opponent. However, friar group utility is severely lacking. With this in mind...

1. Make the self end reduction buff a group thing... it’s a no brainier...(it doesn’t tread on palas toes too much and it actually synergises very well)

2. Make the self haste a group buff

3. Make the HoT spell castable while moving and possibly even whilst in combat, sounds a lil OP from first glance but really isn’t at all.

4. Give friars 1.8 specc points (enables friar to fulfil both rolls in group significantly)

Anyone else got any ideas?

Thu 21 Feb 2019 11:20 AM by Lollie

I find that friars aren't in a bad way, I was gutted however when I found the hot is group only and not cast able like other realms, could reduce the power usage as well on it as currently its a mana hog. Could also give them the first spread heal since their group healing in sub par
Thing I've always liked about Daoc was you can't have everything, friars can be good solo but suck at healing and visa versa.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 11:26 AM by imamo

group timer haste and group endu reduction buff are good ideas. maybe can be put group versions to upper level of ench line.

staff line is fine, you do not need stun, firar is tanky enough to handle 1v1 situations against melee. only downside is, you dont have dodger ra which is most essential ra for friar. dodger is not only defensive it also boosts your damage with after evade styles.

but giving friar more skill point will make unfair balance. as you know solo capable classes mostly have different specs like; group spec and solo spec. in this case friar have to choose his role and spec accordingly.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:04 PM by Luluko

no not more skillpoints and also no sitestun, concentration haste buff and endu reduce is acceptable but if a friar wants a decent stun it should be in 50 staff and a postional sitestun 2sytle combo similar to that of the svg and he should only be able go like 33 enhance then if he also wants the first hot from reju, so that he cant have the best of everything like yellow dex/qui buff and the hot and the stun thats just too much especially for solo. That self haste buff for the whole grp or casteable hot while running is not a good idea, if other classes have hot while running it should be rather nerfed there than giving it to friars. A decent friar which can jump in circles to avoid positional stuns while having that evade and maybe a shield out while casting hot and maybe also a bt theurg with ats debuff in grp is no fun at all to fight. And would make good alb grps almost imun to melee grps if they arent full det and assist really good.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:05 PM by tsteken

I dont play alb on phoenix, but if I did I would like to have a useful Friar.
I dont understand why Paladins got extra specpoints over Friar tbh. Paladin changes are great as it makes Paladin able to go 2hand together with tankspec just as a Mid tank. Friars need a ton of more points so they can actually spec for red resists and keep high healspec together with decent staff.

Im happy the devs actually looking on classes.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:16 PM by dudis

I'd suggest giving friars a casted offensive ranged ability they can use as an interrupt. It doesnt even have to do anything, like another interrupting taunt but with a cast-time.

Sort of like they have access to CL disease on live.

Giving friars Conc haste would also be nice.

Access to a greater heal to make lower Rej specs viable for groups? That would solve the spec-point issue and allow higher staff investment while introducing choice.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:24 PM by Lev

i don't think Friars are in such a bad spot here, but i understand they are no fun to play here.
the worst thing for them on phoenix are some of the custom changes:
everyone on this server is at least fully pot buffed
there's no dodger
the change to weaponskill on poisons. they were the only class whose dmg was not affected because staff is dex based.

all this means is: they are not nearly as good as a stealther killer as they were. this fact is really problematic as the 1vs1 is where all the fun for Friars is.
they did received a back snare at 34 which is very good. they have better heals as all spec heals were buffed. the received Det. but these 'gifts' don't overcome the negatives of the other custom changes (regarding 1vs1).

i just don't think, the goal should be to make them more groupable. Friars just bring too less to a group. a Cleric is way better at healing and buffing, has better CC, has instants and better RA. this is true even with 2 other clerics in the group. i think everyone can guess how long the list of changes has to be to change that. it would need a complete custom revamp.
i think the goal should be to make them stronger in 1vs1. most likely more defense, more evade, PD or better IP. but as long as you always lose to every assassin, there's not a lot of appeal to that class.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:27 PM by Hejjin

As a solo (by choice) Friar I am not convinced that we need more skill points and I am concerned that group haste or endurance would step on other classes toes, personally I would be happy to just get dodger, but as stated I am a solo player. That being said, I believe the rejuv line does need some loving to make the Friar a more appealing healer. I also wonder if moving the offensive proc into rejuv base might be a better idea as then all Friars, regardless of spec have access to it. Currently you have to spend considerable points into rejuv for it to be useful and obviously that reduces how much you are speccing into staff.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:31 PM by Hejjin

Lev wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:24 PM
snip...
i think the goal should be to make them stronger in 1vs1. most likely more defense, more evade, PD or better IP. but as long as you always lose to every assassin, there's not a lot of appeal to that class.

We don't always lose to every assassin, at least when purge is not on cooldown ;-), but yes I would be happy with your idea.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:34 PM by Blitze

With respect to grouping, friars have a long way to go... group end redux and haste is a start and as I said; a no brainer to implement.

I agree that the fun of soloing on a friar has always been higher than grouping (due to friars being not popular in alb groups due to low utility), therefore most people think of and make their friars to be solo chars. However the following nerfs... suck.

WS/con assassin poison is a friar nerf
No dodger is a friar nerf
And buffpots is a huge friar nerf
Vanish being an obscene RA currently.

But I do believe the devs will change the friar to react to this, as they have already showed willing to improve these types of classes.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 4:13 PM by florin

Ashok wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 AM
/moving to suggestion sub

We are aware that certain classes or class types need some attention.
Since we do not strife to be a "classic 1.65 server" but to deliver the best experience for all instead, we are open for suggestions.

Currently we are discussing changes for the 3 archer classes to make them more appealing and align their potential.
Weaker classes like the Friar are are on the radar, but only 1 major change at a time.

So keep posting suggestion how they can be changed; maybe to align them to the opposing realms counterparts or things that Mythic added later on live etc.
We will look into it.

I sure hope the team is prudent on archers...melee rangers are at a very good spot now. Their stealth is lower than assassin but take in account armor, opening up or maneuvering with stun styles, and low bow, + buffs, ++ RAs like IP you get stealthed semi tanks with range.

Hunters if played well or a lot can lead the realm point scores. Pet helps against interrupting casters and kiting melees.

Both rangers and hunters speed buffs can be used offensively and defensively.

Scouts on the other hand really need to team up as their main melee skill is easily purged almost every fight and they have no secondary buff skill set.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 4:36 PM by hellcon

I think one of the problems is, as a hybrid, no one really knows or can even agree upon what a friar should be.
Peels & melee damage
Group heals and buffs
Other group utility
Solo ability
some other that I can't think of at the moment

Should it only have one option, should it have multiples depending on how it specs? IMO, right now it doesn't really offer any of the above & I don't mean that it is simply not the best, but they don't classify as good enough at any of those roles.
If you are going to make them better solo'ers, that doesn't mean they have to be gods, just at least viable enough. As others have pointed out, they are basically fodder disguised as solo'ers with the current gamewide changes.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 5:00 PM by nixxo87

Friars suck here roll something else, thats what im doing /shrug.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 5:24 PM by Dimir

This may have already been said, but I think the Friar suffers not from what they actually have but purely because Alb has so many "required" classes that after those slots are filled there is very little wiggle room. It all boils down to Albion's utility being spread out over more classes unfortunately.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 5:27 PM by Greenangel

If they were given static tempest for free instead costing realm points and single hot heal instant castable as well as few more spec points to be a all round hybrid would be better

Thu 21 Feb 2019 5:31 PM by Dimir

Ashok wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 AM
Currently we are discussing changes for the 3 archer classes to make them more appealing and align their potential.

I know this slightly off topic but:
I'm all for "fixing" archers just so they will shut up on the forums, but please focus your efforts on making them better "archers" and not stealth gods that get everything (stealth, range, melee, better RAs, better armor, improved MoS etc). They need to have their weaknesses, for example just like Assassin's have very limited ranged capability, Archers should be limited in different ways.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 5:48 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Dimir wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 5:31 PM
Ashok wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 AM
Currently we are discussing changes for the 3 archer classes to make them more appealing and align their potential.
I know this slightly off topic but:
I'm all for "fixing" archers just so they will shut up on the forums, but please focus your efforts on making them better "archers" and not stealth gods that get everything (stealth, range, melee, better RAs, better armor, improved MoS etc). They need to have their weaknesses, for example just like Assassin's have very limited ranged capability, Archers should be limited in different ways.

Agree 100%. It's very very very easy to attempt and improve a function of a class and completely overdo it (although I know the Dev team here is well aware of this).

Thu 21 Feb 2019 9:44 PM by djegu

I personally do not understand why friar are not grped in RvR, no wonder why most of the time Hib roll over Alb, I mean that heat grp resist should be a no brainer for any grp on alb.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 12:02 AM by longrb

Since this is gonna be TLDR for most. I'd like to point out, friar Heal over Time group spell castable spell could be a longer duration. To be viable it would be like this:
Friar has already casted its self long duration buffs. Then working with a decent realm ability boosted proc pbaoe group heal. at sign of an encounter, cast group heal over time, duration 1 to 2 minutes would be nice, even if they spread out some of the heal amount to heal less but longer duration. then your HOT (realm ability and spec point boosted) and splash heals could take care of healing whatever is around the target u are smashing with ur staff, aka being a friar. Following assist train? This scenario makes u an awesome addition to the melee assist chain. enemy melees going for your primary healer or your mother? Ccccombo break their main assist and keep whatever target its on alive with said HOT and proc long enough for group to regain initiative. Group a bunch of long range casters with no melee? Enjoy your red resists from you and cleric, consider a few cheap points in empty mind just to beef yourself up while u play as a secondhand group healer, stand near your squishes, making them feel safe a staff wielding friar is nearby to detour threat.

now for TLDR.++

My main on Guinevere was a friar from beta till around the Catacombs era. I enjoyed how much attention the original friar team lead brought to the class to address certain issues, after it was smashed with a hard nerf bat shortly after release. The team lead stepped up and fought tooth and nail to give friars so many great changes we see here on phoenix. Sadly all that hard work was later destroyed, but kudos for phoenix for trying to resurrect the best/balanced friar version we have seen.

That said, here's my first impressions to your original post.

I know you guys made custom change to it already but he is far from being viable in group at this moment.

This is not true, it just depends on how your group composition, and your template. Mastery of the arcane, a bit of wild healing and mastery of healing (not even much needed) can go a long way just for starters. Other advice I could give on how you can change the current meta to work better for you on phoenix, but that's for people to discover. *hint* pots, procs, rogs, clickies, and many other things benefit from a few points invested in various realm abilties friars recieve, and they need to be maxxed either.

Albion is the worst realm in terms of utility classes.
Compare mid group or hib group where they can easily bring an aug healer/shaman or hib druid/warden

Compare friar to a druid or healer is not correct however,
Specifically speaking of utility, on paper yes friars are not very group friendly. Playing speccing, RA and templating a friar in a group friendly manner is a different matter.

on albion the friar is the worst when it comes to utility :
terrible styles growth rate and utility (3 chain styles to get a side stun).
not enough points to spec appropriately and get red resists/decent healer + staff
can not buff haste only the insta cele in timer
can not bring utility such as reduc endo/proc heal group

Ok. So we do get the back style snare now, at 34, which is an indicator of a good stopping point for hybrid spec.

I agreed that friars could use a few more spec points to stay viable in the uiltiy . I did the math on the char planner, approx 783 more spec points would allow for
34 staff
34 rejuv
49 enhance
1 parry.. which is too low for parry, imo ( like to have 9 to 18. to be useful without tons of attention from other sources)

So friars actually NEED the 2.0 spec point per level growth boost. This would still put them 27 points short of the 783 spec points i calculated above.
This would be where they would have to make the sacrifice. a point from 49 to 48 enhance, less rejuv more parry? less staff more utililty... which is fair. it keeps them from being defacto cookie cutter perfect. (actually 44 staff 49 enahnce 34 rejuv 18 parry would be the dream)

give him a side stun style or in the second style (instead of the third...)

I can say that this would work, and with the above example, in a world where friars get 2.0 spec point growth and have to stay under 34 staff still to be utility spec

Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:48 AM by krumr

Dex increasing on level ups, at the very least in place of str, which is totally worthless, but preferably in place of con or pie, would also be something in terms of dmg, weapon skill and a little bit of defense too.
No idea how hard that would be to code tho.

+skill points and more group wide utilities (haste and end redux would improve only the group value of friars) would also help shaping up the class a bit.
Comparatively speaking, and in regards to solo, the wide availability of buffs via potions but, especially (given their higher value in terms of stats) via charges, has quite an impact on a class that is balanced around its self-buffing capabilities.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 4:05 PM by noflex

As the #1 solo friar on uthgard and having recently hit 50 and got templated here on my friar I’ll say a couple things.

The dmg seems way lower here than uthgard (I thought friar here got a boost on the dmg table?) I’m only hitting for barely 200 with a 5.5 staff fully buffed with red dq and 18 starting dex

The assassin WS/con debuff change is a direct HARD nerf for friar, where before we could stand a chance in fights.. now with a WS debuff my 41 staff is evaded so often. This forces me to consider increasing my staff even more and gimping other lines just to maintain a decent WS to land hits when debuffed

The easy to get vanish is another hard nerf for the solo friar (or really anyone solo), even after dropping purge, ST, and IP in a fight the assassin can just vanish away having had me dump all my RA with no benefit.. (this one isn’t as critical as the above two however since I can live with players who want to cheese out and vanish from a sure 1v1 loss, I’ll just run away and afk my RA timers)

No dodger for friar hurts, I was never really a fan of high dodger in favor more of dmg dealing RA like mopain but having dodger (maybe even 1 or 2 levels max available) would be a help to balance out in pve and pvp

The fact that everyone I face is fully charge and pot buffed hurts the friar, as their buffs were a main reason they were good in solo situations, this advantage is now gone

The fact everyone can perma sprint hurts the friar, used to be able to catch a fleeing foe with just sprint and now there is no chance unless I land a lucky back snare before they are out of range

Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:30 PM by teiloh

My suggestions, would prefer condensing lines instead of adding more spec points:

Staff:
Figure Eight: Frontal to differentiate it from Counter Evade.
Holy Staff: Add 50 point spread heal. Will heal 62 solo, but create a heal pool of 120-130 in group. On live, they started with a HOT but this made soloers unhappy. Spread heal was imo always the solution because its weaker solo.
Bonus:
Add new features like Crush damage on Double Strike, replacing bleeds with self-buffs or debuffs, to make the line stack up better with other 1.5x spec melees

Enhance:
Shorten self-haste timer to 1 minute (like live)
Endo Reduction: set to group (like live)
Bonus:
Self speed buff: add to haste or as separate line to help Friars move around in combat, at approx 20-30% so that it won't matter much in 1v1 vs melee. The difference in positioning between front line melee and healer support is very large, unlike Thane/VW who are usually in the right spot to deal damage if they are rooted.

Rejuv:
Make HoT combat castable, UI, and usable on the move like live. Friar as a melee/support hybrid needs something to cover "transitions" from melee to support.
Add another spell. Something like higher tier (25-27+) cure DZ/Poison that are instant would be great.

Other:
Dex hopefully could be made the 2ndary rising stat. Primary as Pie is good.
Loss of Dodger RA hurts Friars a lot.

Luluko wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:04 PM
A decent friar which can jump in circles to avoid positional stuns while having that evade and maybe a shield out while casting hot and maybe also a bt theurg with ats debuff in grp is no fun at all to fight. And would make good alb grps almost imun to melee grps if they arent full det and assist really good.

The HoT heals for 67*1.25 every 3 seconds. It will not make you immune to anything.

Lev wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:24 PM
i think the goal should be to make them stronger in 1vs1. most likely more defense, more evade, PD or better IP. but as long as you always lose to every assassin, there's not a lot of appeal to that class.

Albion absolutely needs its 2nd Acolyte to bring enough value to a group so they can have H/C/M resists. Making Friars better at 1v1 will not accomplish this.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:22 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:30 PM
My suggestions, would prefer condensing lines instead of adding more spec points:

Staff:
Figure Eight: Frontal to differentiate it from Counter Evade.
Holy Staff: Add 50 point spread heal. Will heal 62 solo, but create a heal pool of 120-130 in group. On live, they started with a HOT but this made soloers unhappy. Spread heal was imo always the solution because its weaker solo.
Bonus:
Add new features like Crush damage on Double Strike, replacing bleeds with self-buffs or debuffs, to make the line stack up better with other 1.5x spec melees

Enhance:
Shorten self-haste timer to 1 minute (like live)
Endo Reduction: set to group (like live)
Bonus:
Self speed buff: add to haste or as separate line to help Friars move around in combat, at approx 20-30% so that it won't matter much in 1v1 vs melee. The difference in positioning between front line melee and healer support is very large, unlike Thane/VW who are usually in the right spot to deal damage if they are rooted.

Rejuv:
Make HoT combat castable, UI, and usable on the move like live. Friar as a melee/support hybrid needs something to cover "transitions" from melee to support.
Add another spell. Something like higher tier (25-27+) cure DZ/Poison that are instant would be great.

Other:
Dex hopefully could be made the 2ndary rising stat. Primary as Pie is good.
Loss of Dodger RA hurts Friars a lot.

Luluko wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:04 PM
A decent friar which can jump in circles to avoid positional stuns while having that evade and maybe a shield out while casting hot and maybe also a bt theurg with ats debuff in grp is no fun at all to fight. And would make good alb grps almost imun to melee grps if they arent full det and assist really good.

The HoT heals for 67*1.25 every 3 seconds. It will not make you immune to anything.

Lev wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 12:24 PM
i think the goal should be to make them stronger in 1vs1. most likely more defense, more evade, PD or better IP. but as long as you always lose to every assassin, there's not a lot of appeal to that class.

Albion absolutely needs its 2nd Acolyte to bring enough value to a group so they can have H/C/M resists. Making Friars better at 1v1 will not accomplish this.

It will help if the melee train on the friar is ats debuffed and hits into bt + the friar evading and jumping in circles, I have seen good alb grps on live with a friar and its no fun at all vs that, the same no fun if you try to kill a warden when u got debuffed by champ you do like 50dam if you hit at all with 1h vs bt etc

friar doesnt need hot while running and so does no other class

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:37 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:22 PM
It will help if the melee train on the friar is ats debuffed and hits into bt + the friar evading and jumping in circles, I have seen good alb grps on live with a friar and its no fun at all vs that, the same no fun if you try to kill a warden when u got debuffed by champ you do like 50dam if you hit at all with 1h vs bt etc

friar doesnt need hot while running and so does no other class

Yes, the Friar does need hot while running. That or make it instant. It was implemented on live because they're a melee hybrid and melee hybrids pay a huge cost to transition from role to role. Thanes and VWs have Instas to cover this, Friars don't have much of Insta anything. And if you have a Theurg that means your group comp is Sorc + Cler + Cler + Minst + Theurg + Friar leaving you two spots for actual DPS. Alb isn't Midgard, where you'd get all the utility + good NS/Disease + better heals from Heal/Heal/Sham/Rune/Skald

And your BT + Attack Speed debuff works for literally every class. And if a Friar is jumping in circles, they will leave their backs exposed, which means no evade.

They're not Savages, they need to face you to evade.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:52 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:37 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:22 PM
It will help if the melee train on the friar is ats debuffed and hits into bt + the friar evading and jumping in circles, I have seen good alb grps on live with a friar and its no fun at all vs that, the same no fun if you try to kill a warden when u got debuffed by champ you do like 50dam if you hit at all with 1h vs bt etc

friar doesnt need hot while running and so does no other class

Yes, the Friar does need hot while running. That or make it instant. It was implemented on live because they're a melee hybrid and melee hybrids pay a huge cost to transition from role to role. Thanes and VWs have Instas to cover this, Friars don't have much of Insta anything. And if you have a Theurg that means your group comp is Sorc + Cler + Cler + Minst + Theurg + Friar leaving you two spots for actual DPS. Alb isn't Midgard, where you'd get all the utility + good NS/Disease + better heals from Heal/Heal/Sham/Rune/Skald

And your BT + Attack Speed debuff works for literally every class. And if a Friar is jumping in circles, they will leave their backs exposed, which means no evade.

They're not Savages, they need to face you to evade.

I see plenty of hibs with just 1-2 dps in their grp and sorc, theurg can also do some damage, atleast more than warden

Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:20 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:52 PM
I see plenty of hibs with just 1-2 dps in their grp and sorc, theurg can also do some damage, atleast more than warden

No Hib group has 1-2 DPS unless it's a complete random pug. Theurg damage is unremarkable, few spec Ice, and Air Theurgs rarely have PBT.

Sun 24 Feb 2019 9:09 PM by bob349

Lets talk about how it takes 40% of your power bar to put up your essential buffs, not including resists. Die and get a 10% res? GL getting back to combat effectiveness.

Sun 24 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by Jingo NZ

Up the rejuv spec benefit and you will get group friendly Friars.

Add single target INSTANT heals (but can't target self) to Rejuv spec
Add cure disease, cure poison, cure nearsight to Rejuv spec
Add one more resurrect to Rejuv spec

Group Friar done.

If solo Friars need help:
Add self "Poison resistance" to Enhance spec
-10/20/30% effectiveness of poison & dots & debuffs & disease & nearsight

Solo Friar done.

Could do the same for Warden and Spiritmaster if deemed necessary.

Sun 24 Feb 2019 11:36 PM by Sym

I hope I don't necropost here,

But why it wouldn't be a good thing to bring those "heal proc" the friar got on most of his styles after 1.80 patch if I remember correctly ?

It's not from those updates he started to be more viable ?

Mon 25 Feb 2019 8:37 AM by Cwtch

Make Friar Self Buffs (GROUP BUFFS) and add in a S/C buff also ... with doing this... this will give groups the option of 2 different sets of buffs. Clerics and/or friars .

Give friar more Spec points to allow us to spec a more viable spec. as currently we aint good enough healers or have enough toys as rejuve.. and we not strong enough in mellee again with lack of utility. basically melee friars dont really bring anything to a group that they cant get elsewhere from another class that has more utility/dmge

Open up friars as Saracen and/or Inconnu

Raise a friars weapon skill or dps growth rate... kind of sucks when you spec 50 staff and the lvl29 style does more dmge than the lvl50 one (even though lvl 50 style is in a chain)

Mon 25 Feb 2019 5:02 PM by Sym

just checked in the charplan, and friar only have x1,5 points spec. Compared to a reaver (x2) or a paladin (x2,5) it seems kinda low since they're all considered hybrid class aswell.

Having a x2 or 2,5 multiplier points would make things easier to balance the build in either rejuv/enhance/staff.

I would also say this heal proc buff we get from the rejuv line is kinda pointless atm. Since it triggers on attacks, what's the point ? A rejuv friar isn't going to be good at melee, so the logic of getting this buff from the rejuv line sounds weird.
But furthermore, 15% proc rate for a 93 heal at best ? Considering the best staffs to use as a friar have a slow attack speed, it's gonna be hard to triggers the effect with this proc rate ratio, I guess.
So increasing the proc rate or the heal might be a good start. But I still think having to get this buff from the rejuv line isn't good.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 5:32 PM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 5:02 PM
just checked in the charplan, and friar only have x1,5 points spec. Compared to a reaver (x2) or a paladin (x2,5) it seems kinda low since they're all considered hybrid class aswell.

Warden have 1.5 so do a lot of hybrid. If friar get more sprc points warden need them too or it's not fair.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 6:43 PM by Sym

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 5:32 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 5:02 PM
just checked in the charplan, and friar only have x1,5 points spec. Compared to a reaver (x2) or a paladin (x2,5) it seems kinda low since they're all considered hybrid class aswell.

Warden have 1.5 so do a lot of hybrid. If friar get more sprc points warden need them too or it's not fair.

but a warden doesn't suffer the lack of utility like the friar does, right ? So I don't see why increasing friar's spec points makes it not fair

Mon 25 Feb 2019 7:00 PM by teiloh

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 6:43 PM
but a warden doesn't suffer the lack of utility like the friar does, right ? So I don't see why increasing friar's spec points makes it not fair

I would prefer making the Friar's spec lines stronger for how few spec points they get.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 7:04 PM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 6:43 PM
but a warden doesn't suffer the lack of utility like the friar does, right ? So I don't see why increasing friar's spec points makes it not fair

How are more spec points giving you more utility if that is what friar is missing? Maybe suggest some utility to be added instead. More spec points just gives you a stronger version of friar that still lacks utility. Maybe give friars group poison/disease cure or something to go with their group hot that would make them more group friendly.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 8:24 PM by Sym

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 7:04 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 6:43 PM
but a warden doesn't suffer the lack of utility like the friar does, right ? So I don't see why increasing friar's spec points makes it not fair
How are more spec points giving you more utility if that is what friar is missing? Maybe suggest some utility to be added instead. More spec points just gives you a stronger version of friar that still lacks utility. Maybe give friars group poison/disease cure or something to go with their group hot that would make them more group friendly.

"stronger version of friar" => a stronger version of a char which is currently one of the lowest one in every spec he invests sounds so "OP" to you ? It will makes him better from what he's currently. That's pretty much it
If the friar has to bring his rejuv abitilies on the table, he has to spend a lot of points into this line (aka 44 rejuv points), which means 46 points into enhanc to get the red heat resist buff (and i'm not even talking about the cold one), then only 17 in staff ? He won't even get his back style snare with such a low investment in staff. So let's decrease the rejuv to 34... Oh wait, I can't even reach 34 staff points ? Wow, then I'll give up the red resist aswell ?

So yeah, it's either being a HoT bot with an added resist buff, or just being a solo character ?

Mon 25 Feb 2019 8:34 PM by relvinian

i would try to do the best with what you have.

Being able to rez is not a bad thing. Resists are good. Damage is good.

Static tempest. Etc. Also wild healing worked on heal procs on armor in beta dont know if it still does or if it works on offensive heal proc.

Reflex attack, toughness, etc. Determination? I think they are a good class and i will group with one anytime.

I would probably go like 48 enh, 25 juv, 35 staff, and 13 parry, maybe more staff at lower rr, less parry.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 9:03 PM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 8:24 PM
"stronger version of friar" => a stronger version of a char which is currently one of the lowest one in every spec he invests sounds so "OP" to you ? It will makes him better from what he's currently.

Only thing that ever made friar group friendly were heal styles and they still weren't welcome in 8man. Warden only have utility from bubble otherwise you'd never see one. Warden don't get the luxury of going high in weapon spec either so why should friar? This is why utility would be more important than spec points.

Friar base kit is not group oriented. I think giving them some heal oriented utility would go a long way to improve albions healer option versatility. Stop focusing on combat oriented friar as they already got a great option for that, and people still don't want to group them. A good start towards that is group cures, no realm has that and it would be desired. Just make the radius larger for higher rejuv versions.

Also maybe make their haste buff celerity and a group spell aswell, seeings it has short duration with cooldown. This should be fair.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 9:35 PM by Sym

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 9:03 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 8:24 PM
"stronger version of friar" => a stronger version of a char which is currently one of the lowest one in every spec he invests sounds so "OP" to you ? It will makes him better from what he's currently.

Friar base kit is not group oriented. I think giving them some heal oriented utility would go a long way to improve albions healer option versatility. Stop focusing on combat oriented friar as they already got a great option for that, and people still don't want to group them. A good start towards that is group cures, no realm has that and it would be desired. Just make the radius larger for higher rejuv versions.

Also maybe make their haste buff celerity and a group spell aswell, seeings it has short duration with cooldown. This should be fair.

"Stop focusing on combat oriented friar as they already got a great option for that" => They suffer a huge nerf on this server, even more than it would be on live, due to those new combat potions, like a previous guy said on this topic :

Blitze wrote: WS/con assassin poison is a friar nerf
No dodger is a friar nerf
And buffpots is a huge friar nerf

I really don't see where your "great option for that" comes from to be honest.

And I won't even talk about his Staff styles, which are poorly designed as ALREADY stated here aswell : a 3s (lol) stun after a 1st style, and a 8s stun on the 3rd chain style ?!
And I won't even talk about their Growth Rate, it would make things even less funny. His biggest "anytimer" style is the taunt one. Lol ?

And make those heal styles a thing on here again would be much more interesting than getting a "heal proc" in the rejuv line.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 9:42 PM by Ebenezer

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 6:43 PM
but a warden doesn't suffer the lack of utility like the friar does, right ? So I don't see why increasing friar's spec points makes it not fair

Yes a warden does here. He literally pushes the same button over and over in RvR, and has the same transition issues a friar does if he tries to be a hybrid. And with 10 blades (all he has the skillpoints for), chances are he's going to miss that side-snare anyway.

Friars need a buff. But so do Wardens.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 9:45 PM by teiloh

Ebenezer wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 9:42 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 6:43 PM
but a warden doesn't suffer the lack of utility like the friar does, right ? So I don't see why increasing friar's spec points makes it not fair

Yes a warden does here. He literally pushes the same button over and over in RvR, and has the same transition issues a friar does if he tries to be a hybrid. And with 10 blades (all he has the skillpoints for), chances are he's going to miss that side-snare anyway.

Friars need a buff. But so do Wardens.

Wardens are peelers, whereas Friar staff is designed for tanking/offense. It's much less costly for a healer to peel than to tank/attack. Wardens also hit much faster and provide much more utility.

Yes, they could use a few touch-ups but the Friar is even worse off.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:09 PM by Ebenezer

More utility on a Warden? How? Same bases. Same resists (ok, opposite resists, but still half of them). Same specline single target heal.
Wdn gets damageadd, but alb has that all over anyway as a nice baseline timered buff, which is much more usable.
In RAs ST and TWF are roughly equal.

So it's PBT and better haste vs self d/q, healproc, hot, specAF, and an insta-interrupt.

Pretty even.

What's left? Styles? Yeah, warden has a 10 blades side snare that's occasionally useful to keep a support from running away, but not much else. He sure can't actually kill anything hitting for 30 damage.
The warden spot in RvR pretty much goes to anything else first. Including a 2nd bard or 3rd druid.

Warden is probably slightly better than friar just because hib groups are more flexible. But standing on their own, neither are in a good spot.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:15 PM by Bradekes

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 9:35 PM
"Stop focusing on combat oriented friar as they already got a great option for that" => They suffer a huge nerf on this server, even more than it would be on live, due to those new combat potions, like a previous guy said on this topic :
Blitze wrote: WS/con assassin poison is a friar nerf
No dodger is a friar nerf
And buffpots is a huge friar nerf

Friars are one of the classes that suffers least from buff potions being available. They get full Dex/Qui self buff and full bases, unlike all other self buffers who either get 1 good spec buff or half-effective spec buff or only base buffs. Buff pots also are meaningless in 8vs8/zerg fights.

I think you are missing the point... Friars are not tanks they are hybrid, they are not DPS they are hybrid.. They already have a HUGE advantage over melee warden by being 3 steps higher on the damage/weaponskill table. They get a 2h vs a 1h. They have same haste ability just on cooldown meaning they can use haste pretty much every fight. Their self endo is in Enhance line vs rejuv. They also have back snare. They get group heal proc in rejuv. Warden have to train in parry for defense, Friar gets evade 5 for just being a friar, 25%+Dex/qui(equivalent of 50 parry). They really are the only true healer/melee hybrid in the game.

If you want to be a melee friar that is absolutely a viable option, you will just not get seriously groups without being friends with the group members. Friar need utilty which I have already given adequate suggestions for. Adding spec points will just make them have more heals or a bit more in melee which doesn't help them fill a role in a group.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:19 PM by teiloh

The heal proc would be good on Wardens, but on Friars its not great. You have the damage add chant, which is different from the baseline DA provided by Theurgs. PBT, especially chant PBT that can be pulsed, is nothing to laugh at. Wardens also have a speed chant, which helps pets/healers move around and is an overlooked ability. Alb speed is all casted and therefore not usable with PBT/Sorc mez damp. Being able to turn it on instantly to get everyone out of combat a speed kick is a key, if overlooked, play.

Not to mention that again, a faster swing on peels is better and peeling is better suited for a hybrid healer than tanking/damage. Likewise their self-AF buff is intended to make up for their awful leather AF, but their AF is still lower than chain/scale. Same with abs, they have 2% less, and no shield. Evade 5 is supposed to make up for it, but again, they will be getting attacked while 1) stunned 2) from behind, and Dodger has been removed from the game.

Once more, Evade 5 and Friar defenses are good for tanking and 1v1, but when it comes to DPS and peeling it doesn't help you.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:43 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:19 PM
The heal proc would be good on Wardens, but on Friars its not great. You have the damage add chant, which is different from the baseline DA provided by Theurgs. PBT, especially chant PBT that can be pulsed, is nothing to laugh at. Wardens also have a speed chant, which helps pets/healers move around and is an overlooked ability. Alb speed is all casted and therefore not usable with PBT/Sorc mez damp. Being able to turn it on instantly to get everyone out of combat a speed kick is a key, if overlooked, play.

Not to mention that again, a faster swing on peels is better and peeling is better suited for a hybrid healer than tanking/damage. Likewise their self-AF buff is intended to make up for their awful leather AF, but their AF is still lower than chain/scale. Same with abs, they have 2% less, and no shield. Evade 5 is supposed to make up for it, but again, they will be getting attacked while 1) stunned 2) from behind, and Dodger has been removed from the game.

Once more, Evade 5 and Friar defenses are good for tanking and 1v1, but when it comes to DPS and peeling it doesn't help you.

Leather has the same AF as reinforced/scale/plate for one. ABS you are correct on. Warden gets untrained shield(not sure how this is a boon to them(Friar can also equip a shield btw and it is recommended if you are not engaged in melee). Everyone just underestimates friar's melee abilites. Everything you said just keeps pointing to what everyone's complaints are, ignoring(or dismissing) the areas friars are actually adequate and then complaining about utility.

I already stated Group Cure Disease/Poison on (Higher Lvl/Larger Radius) and making friar self haste into celerity and making it a group buff. These two things would give friars the utility they need to get groups and start being invited to RVR guaranteed, no spec points needed.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:53 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:43 PM
Leather has the same AF as reinforced/scale/plate for one. ABS you are correct on. Warden gets untrained shield(not sure how this is a boon to them(Friar can also equip a shield btw and it is recommended if you are not engaged in melee). Everyone just underestimates friar's melee abilites. Everything you said just keeps pointing to what everyone's complaints are, ignoring(or dismissing) the areas friars are actually adequate and then complaining about utility.

I already stated Group Cure Disease/Poison on (Higher Lvl/Larger Radius) and making friar self haste into celerity and making it a group buff. These two things would give friars the utility they need to get groups and start being invited to RVR guaranteed, no spec points needed.

I was responding to Ebenezer.

AF, on live at least, was multiplied by an armor type's absorb value. Chain/scale has higher absorb AND AF than leather. And no one underestimates a Friar's melee ability, their melee is not good enough to separate it out from generic "peel" categories. They don't get rising dex, their growth rates are mediocre, their styles are mediocre, and they have 1.5x spec points.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:12 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:53 PM
AF, on live at least, was multiplied by an armor type's absorb value.

Armor Factor is not and never was multiplied by ABS, they are two separate things.

http://camelot.allakhazam.com/wiki/DAOC_Guide_Effective_AF_Chart

AF given is based on the Quality of the armor. Also Base AF Buff will fill in the gaps of lower Condition/Quality up to cap for your level.

Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:52 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:12 PM
Armor Factor is not and never was multiplied by ABS, they are two separate things.

http://camelot.allakhazam.com/wiki/DAOC_Guide_Effective_AF_Chart

AF given is based on the Quality of the armor. Also Base AF Buff will fill in the gaps of lower Condition/Quality up to cap for your level.

Absolutely wrong. Effective AF =/= AF

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/af_mechanics.html

Overall AF cap = 10 * level * (1 + abs%/100)

Tue 26 Feb 2019 12:11 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:52 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 11:12 PM
Armor Factor is not and never was multiplied by ABS, they are two separate things.

http://camelot.allakhazam.com/wiki/DAOC_Guide_Effective_AF_Chart

AF given is based on the Quality of the armor. Also Base AF Buff will fill in the gaps of lower Condition/Quality up to cap for your level.

Absolutely wrong. Effective AF =/= AF

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/af_mechanics.html

Overall AF cap = 10 * level * (1 + abs%/100)

ABS from armor is just simply added into AF to determine overall absorption. AF is based on armor and ABS from the type of armor is converted into AF. Simple enough. So no it doesn't change anything. from what I said. Paperdoll just shows Armor AF combined with ABS from armor. It does not show ABS from Buff form into AF on paperdoll.. this is the only difference

Tue 26 Feb 2019 12:15 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 12:11 AM
ABS from armor is just simply added into AF to determine overall absorption. AF is based on armor and ABS from the type of armor is converted into AF. Simple enough. So no it doesn't change anything. from what I said. Paperdoll just shows Armor AF combined with ABS from armor. It does not show ABS from Buff form into AF on paperdoll.. this is the only difference

Incorrect. ABS and AF are calculated separately. You have an Abs score determined by the piece attacked + buffs. You have a separate total AF cap determined by all your pieces combined, multiplied by Absorb.

This is why plate wearers have 670 AF base, and why Chain wearers have 635, and Friars under 600.

Friars have less AF. Their AF is not chain equivalent. They have a self AF buff, but that's another story.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 12:41 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 12:15 AM
Incorrect. ABS and AF are calculated separately. You have an Abs score determined by the piece attacked + buffs. You have a separate total AF cap determined by all your pieces combined, multiplied by Absorb.

ARMOR = (20 + (ITEM_USEABLE_AF + (SPEC_AF_BONUS / 5))
* ITEM_QUALITY
* ITEM_CONDITION)
/ (1 - ITEM_ABSORB)

This is how your armor is factored when you are hit. Item_useable AF=102 for level 51 armor Item_Absorb=Armor type ABS

This is straight from official sources. Paperdoll is misleading and has been for a long, long time.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:12 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 12:41 AM
ARMOR = (20 + (ITEM_USEABLE_AF + (SPEC_AF_BONUS / 5))
* ITEM_QUALITY
* ITEM_CONDITION)
/ (1 - ITEM_ABSORB)

Note the / (1 - ITEM_ABSORB) part. This is why Friars take more damage than Scale wearers.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:14 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:12 AM
Note the / (1 - ITEM_ABSORB) part. This is why Friars take more damage than Scale wearers.

OYYY there is another line about spell casted ABS after that... sorry i forgot to add it... Figures you would assume that somehow your spells abs would not be added to the equation...

You take the value of that whole equation then you further reduce it by these two items.. wow some people really need it all
* (1 - BUFFED_ABSORB)
* (1 - RESISTANCE)

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:18 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:14 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:12 AM
Note the / (1 - ITEM_ABSORB) part. This is why Friars take more damage than Scale wearers.

OYYY there is another line about spell casted ABS after that... sorry i forgot to add it... Figures you would assume that somehow your spells abs would not be added to the equation...

Oh okay, go ahead and show your sources. You do realize that the item absorb part is a divisor, so no matter where you insert that supposed casted buff, leather wearers will ALWAYS take more damage, right?

You also realize that this is an ARMOR formula, and not a total damage taken formula, correct?

Absorb is simple enough. If you have 0, you take 100% damage, if you have 100, you take 0 damage.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:20 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:18 AM
Oh okay, go ahead and show your sources. You do realize that the item absorb part is a divisor, so no matter where you insert that supposed casted buff, leather wearers will ALWAYS take more damage, right?

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

Also to stop you before you say it shows the way you factor armor factor - Note it is under DISPLAYED ARMOR FACTOR not how AF is actually used in equations to determine damage.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:21 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:20 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:18 AM
Oh okay, go ahead and show your sources. You do realize that the item absorb part is a divisor, so no matter where you insert that supposed casted buff, leather wearers will ALWAYS take more damage, right?

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

LOL, that's not "another line". This is literally what I was talking about - another formula - you multiply everything by absorb and then resists at the end.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:23 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:21 AM
LOL, that's not "another line". This is literally what I was talking about - another formula - you multiply everything by absorb and then resists at the end.

I'm done. We are flooding this thread with stuff that doesn't pertain to it. I know how it is, and you are wrong. Displayed AF in paperdoll is not used the way you think it is in damage calculations. I will no longer be responding about this. You can believe a completely false document on AF all you want. I will stick to official.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:24 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:20 AM
Also to stop you before you say it shows the way you factor armor factor - Note it is under DISPLAYED ARMOR FACTOR not how AF is actually used in equations to determine damage.

Oh okay, so this formula you brought out to prove that displayed armor factor is irrelevant, is actually a formula showing how displayed armor factor is calculated, which somehow proves that Friars take the same amount of damage as a chain wearer ... rofl

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:26 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:23 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:21 AM
LOL, that's not "another line". This is literally what I was talking about - another formula - you multiply everything by absorb and then resists at the end.
I'm done. We are flooding this thread with stuff that doesn't pertain to it. I know how it is, and you are wrong. Displayed AF in paperdoll is not used the way you think it is in damage calculations. I will no longer be responding about this. You can believe a completely false document on AF all you want. I will stick to official.

Yes, you are done. Friars have less AF even though you laughably tried to suggest that all armor types have the same AF.

"You can believe a completely false document on AF all you want"

It's literally the same formula on the "official document" you cited.

ARMOR_FACT = 10 * ARMOR_LEVEL * (1 + ARMOR_ABSORB)

ENEMY_ARMOR = (20 + (ITEM_USEABLE_AF
+ (ENEMY_SPEC_AF_BONUS / 5)
+ (ENEMY_TOA_AF_BONUS / 5))
* ITEM_QUALITY
* ITEM_CONDITION)
/ (1 - ITEM_ABSORB)

Friar:
ENEMY_ARMOR = (20 + 102 * .99 * 100) / (1 - .10) = 134.2 armor multiplier

Warden
ENEMY_ARMOR = (20 + 102 * .99 * 100) / (1 - .27) = 164 armor multiplier

So once again, you're wrong.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:21 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:26 AM
Friar:
ENEMY_ARMOR = (20 + 102 * .99 * 100) / (1 - .10) = 134.2 armor multiplier

Warden
ENEMY_ARMOR = (20 + 102 * .99 * 100) / (1 - .27) = 164 armor multiplier

So once again, you're wrong.

DAMAGE_MODIFIER = LEVEL
* DAMAGE_TABLE / 10
* (1 + 0.01 * STATS)
* (0.9 + 0.1 * MAX(1, STRENGTH_RELIC_COUNT))
* (0.75 + 0.5 * MIN(ENEMY_LEVEL + 1, SPEC - 1) / (ENEMY_LEVEL + 1) + 0.01 * RANDOM(50))
/(1)ENEMY_ARMOR(1)
* (1 - (2)ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB(2))
* (1 - ENEMY_RESISTANCE)

Okay so seeings you are being ignorant again. Lets factor the WHOLE equation which you only look at one part.
The armor factor you calculated is under (1) The part you are not adding is the part in (2) which factors in the rest of your ABS gained from your ABS buff that balances things out.

Do you really think they would of factored in Armor ABS twice into their equations for how to determine damage reduction? Your logic isn't sound.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:26 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:21 AM

What you aren't getting is that formula 1 produces one number (AF), and then formula 2 is just a flat multiplier that all damage is filtered through. ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB is Armor Absorb (see the calc below it) + ABS buffs. ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB for Warden is 27, for Friars with enough Enh it's 25.

That page does not show how AF impacts damage taken. Roughly, 10 AF = 1.2-1.3% damage reduction.

If you don't believe it, log on your Friar and then any Chain class and do your tests.

Of course, you have probably never played one.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:31 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:26 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:21 AM

What you aren't getting is that formula 1 produces one number (AF), and then formula 2 is just a flat multiplier that all damage is filtered through. ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB is Armor Absorb (see the calc below it) + ABS buffs. ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB for Warden is 27, for Friars with enough Enh it's 25.

That page does not show how AF impacts damage taken. Roughly, 10 AF = 1.2-1.3% damage reduction.

If you don't believe it, log on your Friar and then any Chain class and do your tests.

Of course, you have probably never played one.

Okay so my Paladin that had about 1kAF in beta with Mastery of the Arcane should of been getting healed for roughly 30% of the damage melee did to him then huh?

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:33 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:31 AM
Okay so my Paladin that had over 1kAF in beta with Mastery of the Arcane should of been getting healed for roughly 30% of the damage melee did to him then huh?

I'm not surprised that you're someone who believes, mathematically, that a % damage redux can wrap around and go into negatives. 1k AF means you'll take about 35% less damage than an unbuffed chain/scale wearer.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:35 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:33 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:31 AM
Okay so my Paladin that had over 1kAF in beta with Mastery of the Arcane should of been getting healed for roughly 30% of the damage melee did to him then huh?

I'm not surprised that you're someone who believes, mathematically, that a % damage redux can wrap around and go into negatives. 1k AF means you'll take about 35% less damage than an unbuffed chain/scale wearer.

No No.... you said 10af = 1.3% dmg reduc... iw ould have 130% DR by your math... because you don't make mistakes teiloh

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:37 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:35 AM
No No.... you said 10af = 1.3% dmg reduc... iw ould have 130% DR by your math... because you don't make mistakes teiloh

Obviously, AF is based off the typical WS you will encounter, and we were talking about a difference of 50-70 AF, so you should probably assume that that is what we're talking about.

In other words, +/- 10 AF for the typical 50 will net a +/- 1.3% damage from the typical level 50 attacker.

A Warden, with 635 cap AF, would take Friar, with around 550 cap leather AF, would take 8-9% less damage than a Friar.

http://www.postcount.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-3176.html

If you don't want to take my word for it:

Honestly no, I got this from attacking my Paladin, Cleric, and Friar wearing 0/50 AF in suit with no buffs and extrapolating the results from that. Damage went down by 1% per 8.2 AF on the paperdoll even across the three armor types. Paladin with full plate and 0/50 AF in suit had 690 AF on the paperdoll, Cleric had 633 AF on the paperdoll. The difference between the two is 57 paperdoll AF. 57 / 8.2 = 6.96, or almost exactly the 7% ABS difference between chain and plate. Sure enough, the Cleric took 10.4% more damage than the Paladin when I had my Friar swing at them. (500 swings each) That's almost exactly the 10.6% more you would expect the Cleric to take, considering 27% damage reduction vs. 34% damage reduction. Similar results were gotten testing the Friar vs. the Cleric, the Friar took 24.1% more damage than the Cleric on the same test. You would expect the Friar to take 23.2% more given the differences in their ABS, so that's not too far of

Then of course, the Friar has a 58 * 1.25 = 72 AF buff at high Enh. But that's not the point. Leather and Chain are not equivalent. Both absorb and multiplied AF matter.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:41 AM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:37 AM
Obviously, AF is based off the typical WS you will expect, and we were talking about a difference of 50-70 AF, so you should probably assume that that is what we're talking about.

In other words, +/- 10 AF for the typical 50 will net a +/- 1.3% damage from the typical level 50 attacker.

Wonder if you also forget that Friars get a spec AF buff that warden don't get... You know that may cover the AF discussion up.. I just wanted to see you fumble over yourself as you try to get yourself outta the hole you dug.. I am saying you are wrong, your numbers are wrong.. and Friar already have compensation for your whole arguement...

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:51 AM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:41 AM
Wonder if you also forget that Friars get a spec AF buff that warden don't get... You know that may cover the AF discussion up.. I just wanted to see you fumble over yourself as you try to get yourself outta the hole you dug.. I am saying you are wrong, your numbers are wrong.. and Friar already have compensation for your whole arguement...

Wardens can get self Spec AF charges just like any other class, put a level 1 MP item in your inventory.

My numbers are right. You argued that Friars have the same mitigation as Wardens because "everything over cloth has the same AF". This is incorrect.

1. You have an AF cap that goes up with your armor tier according to their absorb. This is why plate wearers have higher AF than chain wearers. A Warden has, a 2-3% damage mitigation bonus here, AFTER the Friar casts self-AF. However, AFTER the Warden uses an ubiquitous 75 AF buff, the gap reappears. I will have to double check how Friar self-AF stacking works with Spec AF because it's been through several iterations. Live 1.65 however, it did NOT stack with charge/Cleric Spec AF.
2. This factor is separate from ENEMY_BUFFED_ABSORB, which is calculated by adding each piece of armor's absorb together, after multiplying each by CHANCE_TO_HIT_PIECE. Then you add the absorb buff to that weighted average. A Warden has a 2% advantage here.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 10:00 AM by Hejjin

I posted earlier in the thread, I still do not believe that Friars should get more spec points, but I do believe they need some help, so the following are my thoughts on what might help.

Base :
Add + dexterity to every level

Rejuvenation changes :
Change Cure Poison and Cure disease to instant cast with 3 second recast time.
Remove the Offensive Proc from Rejuv spec and move it in to Rejuv base.
Change the group Heal over Time to be instant cast.
Add instant cast Group Cure Poison and Cure Disease at high rejuv (30+) on a 10 minute recast timer.

Enhance Changes :
Change Armour Absorption buff to be Group.
Change Fatigue Consumption buff to be Group.

The above should help out all Friars regardless of the role they play. I am wary of giving Friars too much in one go, but the above would be a good starting point, if it is still not enough, then that is where things like group celerity and group endurance regeneration can be considered.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 11:29 AM by merry75

wary too give too much to the friar in one go ? please , daoc is not meant to be a solo game , my goal there was not intended to make friar good in 1v1 but to give overall utility to a shitty class.

as it was mentioned above, alb suffers from the most of all the 3 realms in terms of utility compared to any setup mid/hib, the new ra system is also giving a huge nerf to alb that are casters based. (hello sos)

there is no other way around than accepting to give friar 2.0 spec points to get him a little bit on par with other realms,. Even so increasing his specs points is not going to make him op in the slightest, this is just mandatory so that this class can be half useful.

the friar would still never be as good as a cleric since it has no greater, so it would still be impossible to run only cleric/friar given utility of the cleric but it would make a decent add to an hybrid/tank group which alb currently really sucks at.

the debate should be oriented whether a friar should get :
1.side stun style staff on opening
2.slightly increased growth rates styles
3.reduc endo/proc heal buff
4.hast single buff
5.a decent anytime combo

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:40 PM by Bradekes

merry75 wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 11:29 AM
5.a decent anytime combo

Wow man.. Look I'm all for a bit of friar love but apparently you take friars for granted a bit. They have a 0.70 growthrate anytime style level 29 taunt. Which to note is the only taunt that has no defense penatly.Friars are honestly in a good place, they just need spec options for group utility not more spec points

Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:58 PM by Hejjin

merry75 wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 11:29 AM
wary too give too much to the friar in one go ? please , daoc is not meant to be a solo game , my goal there was not intended to make friar good in 1v1 but to give overall utility to a shitty class.

as it was mentioned above, alb suffers from the most of all the 3 realms in terms of utility compared to any setup mid/hib, the new ra system is also giving a huge nerf to alb that are casters based. (hello sos)

there is no other way around than accepting to give friar 2.0 spec points to get him a little bit on par with other realms,. Even so increasing his specs points is not going to make him op in the slightest, this is just mandatory so that this class can be half useful.

the friar would still never be as good as a cleric since it has no greater, so it would still be impossible to run only cleric/friar given utility of the cleric but it would make a decent add to an hybrid/tank group which alb currently really sucks at.

the debate should be oriented whether a friar should get :
1.side stun style staff on opening
2.slightly increased growth rates styles
3.reduc endo/proc heal buff
4.hast single buff
5.a decent anytime combo

Giving Friars 2.0 spec points and the changes you suggest is way over the top. I believe it is better to incrementally add to the Friar to solve their issues rather than over-react and buff them too much and then later nerf them.

In regards to Staff, there are some modification I would like to see, Quick strike as the follow up to Defender's Fury is positively underwhelming and needs to be adjusted upwards to make it useful. Currently it is better to be using Defender's Fury and Friar's Boon and avoiding Quick Strike altogether.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:00 PM by Cwtch

dont know why everybody is comparing a frair to other classes like the Warden

Warden has Group Pbt (Welcome in Groups)
Warden has Group Damage Add (Welcome in Groups)
Warden has SPEED! (ok not so welcome in groups due to caster speed and most groups having Bards

But giving JUST speed alone to Friars id be happy with....at least then i have a little bit more fun running Solo

so Yes .. please give Friars a CASTER Speed buff! ty

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:04 PM by Hejjin

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 1:40 PM
merry75 wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 11:29 AM
5.a decent anytime combo

Wow man.. Look I'm all for a bit of friar love but apparently you take friars for granted a bit. They have a 0.70 growthrate anytime style level 29 taunt. Which to note is the only taunt that has no defense penatly.Friars are honestly in a good place, they just need spec options for group utility not more spec points

I mostly agree with you, though I do not believe that Friars are currently in a good place, we are just not in as bad a place as some make out, but yes we do need some love to make us more appealing, hence the reason I suggested some changes.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:11 PM by Bradekes

Cwtch wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:00 PM
dont know why everybody is comparing a frair to other classes like the Warden

Warden has Group Pbt (Welcome in Groups)
Warden has Group Damage Add (Welcome in Groups)
Warden has SPEED! (ok not so welcome in groups due to caster speed and most groups having Bards

But giving JUST speed alone to Friars id be happy with....at least then i have a little bit more fun running Solo

so Yes .. please give Friars a CASTER Speed buff! ty

The only class you can compare friar to is warden. Everyone in this thread agrees friar need utility so I'm not sure why anyone pretends that anyone is arguing that... Casted Run speed chant could work on friar for utility, but I don't think that's gunna get friar into an 8man group.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:14 PM by Ashenspire

Friar to VW is a better comparison than Friar to Warden.

1.5x, light armor with self buffs that make them not so light, fast 2h weapons, etc.

The difference is friars are defensive/supportive in nature whereas VWs are not.

The issue lies in the fact that Friar needs to spec in 3 lines (staff, enhance, rejuv) for all their tools whereas VW only needs 2. Couple that with the fact that a VW can jump on a melee train easily and effectively whereas Friars are in a very weird spot with how they fit into a group (backline backup healer that isn't a phenomenal healer and can't peel well or defend like a proper shield tank) and they're just in a weird place that just doesn't fit into an already diluted realm.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:20 PM by Hejjin

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:11 PM
Cwtch wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:00 PM
dont know why everybody is comparing a frair to other classes like the Warden

Warden has Group Pbt (Welcome in Groups)
Warden has Group Damage Add (Welcome in Groups)
Warden has SPEED! (ok not so welcome in groups due to caster speed and most groups having Bards

But giving JUST speed alone to Friars id be happy with....at least then i have a little bit more fun running Solo

so Yes .. please give Friars a CASTER Speed buff! ty

The only class you can compare friar to is warden. Everyone in this thread agrees friar need utility so I'm not sure why anyone pretends that anyone is arguing that... Casted Run speed chant could work on friar for utility, but I don't think that's gunna get friar into an 8man group.

To be honest I would prefer the run speed chant be added to Paladins to make them more appealing to groups, though I admit as a Solo Staff/Enhance Friar having access to a run speed buff would be great ;-).

Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:14 PM by Isavyr

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 10:00 AM
I posted earlier in the thread, I still do not believe that Friars should get more spec points, but I do believe they need some help, so the following are my thoughts on what might help.

Base :
Add + dexterity to every level

Rejuvenation changes :
Change Cure Poison and Cure disease to instant cast with 3 second recast time.
Remove the Offensive Proc from Rejuv spec and move it in to Rejuv base.
Change the group Heal over Time to be instant cast.
Add instant cast Group Cure Poison and Cure Disease at high rejuv (30+) on a 10 minute recast timer.

Enhance Changes :
Change Armour Absorption buff to be Group.
Change Fatigue Consumption buff to be Group.

The above should help out all Friars regardless of the role they play. I am wary of giving Friars too much in one go, but the above would be a good starting point, if it is still not enough, then that is where things like group celerity and group endurance regeneration can be considered.

I like your thinking but all of these would be stupid-strong for solo Friar.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:25 PM by Cami

Solo friar seems to be ok. Buffing solo capacities may get out of line.
In group as a peeler, the class is decent, too, maybe having easier access to a stun (second in side style line) and some more positional damage might nice.
In group as a healer, you are basically a bad Cleric. A huge buff to the HoT and some more group buffs besides the self buffs might help a lot.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:26 PM by Blitze

Simple changes that I think almost all people would agree with:

Group end redux
Group haste
Group absorb
Group cure poison/desease in rejuv

More changes that are debateable...

1.8 specc points
Heal proc as baseline rejuv
Fix some staff styles (as they did with holy staff thanks). Start with quick strike and Excomm.
HoT able to be cast on the move
Increased weaponskill

Interesting things to consider if friars are still struggling after the above has been done...

2.0 spec points
Heal styles
Uninterruptible HoT
Parry guard (same idea as guard for shield, obvs one person can’t be guarded by both)
Pbaoe disarm like the RR5 ability.

Would be a start to address the group issues

Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:31 PM by Bradekes

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:26 PM
Parry guard (same idea as guard for shield, obvs one person can’t be guarded by both)

I like this for both friar and warden honestly sounds legit

Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:32 PM by Hejjin

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:14 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 10:00 AM
I posted earlier in the thread, I still do not believe that Friars should get more spec points, but I do believe they need some help, so the following are my thoughts on what might help.

Base :
Add + dexterity to every level

Rejuvenation changes :
Change Cure Poison and Cure disease to instant cast with 3 second recast time.
Remove the Offensive Proc from Rejuv spec and move it in to Rejuv base.
Change the group Heal over Time to be instant cast.
Add instant cast Group Cure Poison and Cure Disease at high rejuv (30+) on a 10 minute recast timer.

Enhance Changes :
Change Armour Absorption buff to be Group.
Change Fatigue Consumption buff to be Group.

The above should help out all Friars regardless of the role they play. I am wary of giving Friars too much in one go, but the above would be a good starting point, if it is still not enough, then that is where things like group celerity and group endurance regeneration can be considered.

I like your thinking but all of these would be stupid-strong for solo Friar.

Hmmm

Only the following would affect solo Friars :
+ Dex would make a solo friar stronger, though I would say that is something that should have automatically bene done, and helps to compensate for the buff pots and lack of dodger on here.

Offensive proc moving to base rejuv would help solo Friars a lot, I did originally consider adding that the amount it healed would be reduced to compensate for that change and high +rejuv would enhance it. Currently that proc makes very little sense as you have to spec considerably into Rejuv to get a decent version of it, which automatically means that Friar has spent very little on staff, unless of course they are doing a strange Rejuv/Staff spec and not speccing much into Enhance, but I am not convinced anyone is that much of a masochist ;-).

Instant cast cure poison / disease. If this is too strong then there could be an instant cast version of them later in the Rejuv line, but I thought it made sense as a melee/healer hybrid for them to be do this without having to stop moving to cast the spells.

All the rest is aimed at Friars that are going for a group friendly spec.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:03 PM by Isavyr

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:32 PM
Offensive proc moving to base rejuv would help solo Friars a lot, I did originally consider adding that the amount it healed would be reduced to compensate for that change and high +rejuv would enhance it. Currently that proc makes very little sense as you have to spec considerably into Rejuv to get a decent version of it, which automatically means that Friar has spent very little on staff, unless of course they are doing a strange Rejuv/Staff spec and not speccing much into Enhance, but I am not convinced anyone is that much of a masochist ;-).

Instant cast cure poison / disease. If this is too strong then there could be an instant cast version of them later in the Rejuv line, but I thought it made sense as a melee/healer hybrid for them to be do this without having to stop moving to cast the spells.

The insta group heal would make Friar way too strong solo. Possible countermeasure: Does not heal Friar, only groupmates.
The insta cure disease/poison would be too strong against assassins, which the friar already is very effective. Possible countermeasure: As you said, higher rejuv spec required.

One I thought is that they get to share their D/Q with group, so its not just a self-buff, but a group buff. Helps them in small-man and large-man. However, it cannibalizes reason for cleric to spec high nurture (40) and would possibly need either separate spells which are lower in value, or entire line reduced and changed to realm-castable concentration buff.

Alternatively, could have group versions of the other buffs (AF, or Absorb (or a combination), that are lesser in value to the self-buffs, but remain useful in buffing (perhaps as tertiary, in event there was no cleric, or no necro for 10% absorb, for example). For example:
> 50 Enhancement - 10% absorb buff (does not stack with Necro abs buff) (should be tied to conc, to limit Friar's overall buffing)

Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:13 PM by Ardri

It's important to keep in mind the 3 realistic specs when making balance changes:
1) High enhance/rejuv with low staff peels (most popular).
2) High enhance/staff with low heals.
3) Hybrid spec - yellow resists/enhance with medium dmg/heals.

So you have 3 lines, enhance/staff/rejuv. Enhance line is good as is, no changes needed. This leaves changes to staff/rejuv for buffing.

1) Give staff a 2 style side stun instead of 3style. Instead of 44 staff, make it 39 friar's fury (currently counter evade) so it's attainable by hybrid build.
2) Make high staff an optimal spec. Heard lvl 50 staff style (excomm) was terrible? Not sure how true, but adjust higher staff style GR to give more dmg.
3) Make high rejuv an optimal spec. Give greater heal.
4) Make friar sidi staff (cudgel) a group heal proc.
5) Like paladin, more spec points.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:39 PM by Hejjin

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:03 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 3:32 PM
Offensive proc moving to base rejuv would help solo Friars a lot, I did originally consider adding that the amount it healed would be reduced to compensate for that change and high +rejuv would enhance it. Currently that proc makes very little sense as you have to spec considerably into Rejuv to get a decent version of it, which automatically means that Friar has spent very little on staff, unless of course they are doing a strange Rejuv/Staff spec and not speccing much into Enhance, but I am not convinced anyone is that much of a masochist ;-).

Instant cast cure poison / disease. If this is too strong then there could be an instant cast version of them later in the Rejuv line, but I thought it made sense as a melee/healer hybrid for them to be do this without having to stop moving to cast the spells.

The insta group heal would make Friar way too strong solo. Possible countermeasure: Does not heal Friar, only groupmates.
The insta cure disease/poison would be too strong against assassins, which the friar already is very effective. Possible countermeasure: As you said, higher rejuv spec required.

One I thought is that they get to share their D/Q with group, so its not just a self-buff, but a group buff. Helps them in small-man and large-man. However, it cannibalizes reason for cleric to spec high nurture (40) and would possibly need either separate spells which are lower in value, or entire line reduced and changed to realm-castable concentration buff.

Alternatively, could have group versions of the other buffs (AF, or Absorb (or a combination), that are lesser in value to the self-buffs, but remain useful in buffing (perhaps as tertiary, in event there was no cleric, or no necro for 10% absorb, for example). For example:
> 50 Enhancement - 10% absorb buff (does not stack with Necro abs buff) (should be tied to conc, to limit Friar's overall buffing)

The first Group Heal over time is at 24 Rejuv, I don't believe that many, if any, Solo Friars are speccing that heavily into rejuv, but again if it is an issue they could have the instant cast versions of it later in the spec line.

I am not convinced we are very effective against assassins, well not unless we have massively outspent them on RA's...

Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:48 PM by noflex

Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:39 PM
I am not convinced we are very effective against assassins, well not unless we have massively outspent them on RA's...

even still they will just vanish on you after you dump your RA's on them

Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:58 PM by teiloh

Friars are no longer that strong against Assassins thanks to the poison change.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 8:01 PM by Hejjin

noflex wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 7:48 PM
Hejjin wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:39 PM
I am not convinced we are very effective against assassins, well not unless we have massively outspent them on RA's...

even still they will just vanish on you after you dump your RA's on them

Yes that has happened several times when I had the upper hand in the 1 v 1. The assassin classes say they want 1 v 1, but it is only on their terms, otherwise most just vanish and run away.

Tue 26 Feb 2019 10:50 PM by Ebenezer

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:19 PM
Wardens also have a speed chant, which helps pets/healers move around and is an overlooked ability. Alb speed is all casted and therefore not usable with PBT/Sorc mez damp. Being able to turn it on instantly to get everyone out of combat a speed kick is a key, if overlooked, play.

Warden speed is a cast, same as every other secondary speed class. So just as useless in combat.
And requires speccing, same as Healer, so if you were to try to do something non-standard with your specpoints, you come up short.

Wed 27 Feb 2019 12:55 AM by teiloh

Ebenezer wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 10:50 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Feb 2019 10:19 PM
Wardens also have a speed chant, which helps pets/healers move around and is an overlooked ability. Alb speed is all casted and therefore not usable with PBT/Sorc mez damp. Being able to turn it on instantly to get everyone out of combat a speed kick is a key, if overlooked, play.

Warden speed is a cast, same as every other secondary speed class. So just as useless in combat.
And requires speccing, same as Healer, so if you were to try to do something non-standard with your specpoints, you come up short.

Guess that must have been changed later on in the patch cycle

Wed 27 Feb 2019 1:02 AM by Niget

One thing to keep in mind with all of this is they already got a damage up. And they hit pretty dam hard.
I can't speak for their utility, but they are mean solo. Don't let them get out of hand.

Wed 27 Feb 2019 12:58 PM by Cami

Increase "Heal Over Time" value by 100%
HoT is currently totally worthless and needs a buff. This is the one skill where the Friars Rejuvenation line differs from the superior Cleric Rejuvenation line, so make it useful. It will still cost ridiculous amounts of power and it will still not out-heal an assist train, but it would be a useful spell.

Access to "Cure Nearsight I"
This would not be overpowered at all, but it would be one less argument why the Cleric is a better choice over a Rejuvenation Friar.

"Fatigue Consumption Buff" should be target (Group)
Doesn't sound that strong, but it would provide some group utility from the Enhancement line.

Add 8s stun to style "Excommunicate"
Going all the way to 50 staff is a huge investment, so it should make a difference.

Make style "Stunning Wrath" the second style in the side chain
The snare styles are quite awesome, but you need some kind of reasonable positional stun when you want to be a reasonable option for the peeler role.

Sat 2 Mar 2019 11:55 PM by Niget

Cami wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Feb 2019 12:58 PM
Increase "Heal Over Time" value by 100%
HoT is currently totally worthless and needs a buff. This is the one skill where the Friars Rejuvenation line differs from the superior Cleric Rejuvenation line, so make it useful. It will still cost ridiculous amounts of power and it will still not out-heal an assist train, but it would be a useful spell.

Access to "Cure Nearsight I"
This would not be overpowered at all, but it would be one less argument why the Cleric is a better choice over a Rejuvenation Friar.

"Fatigue Consumption Buff" should be target (Group)
Doesn't sound that strong, but it would provide some group utility from the Enhancement line.

Add 8s stun to style "Excommunicate"
Going all the way to 50 staff is a huge investment, so it should make a difference.

Make style "Stunning Wrath" the second style in the side chain
The snare styles are quite awesome, but you need some kind of reasonable positional stun when you want to be a reasonable option for the peeler role.

This seems like the argument for giving wardens 2h weapons. Except friars have one. They got a damage bump, a good one at that.
None of this would be fair.
They can peel fine with a 15 sec rear snare and a 27 sec side snare.
Fatigue reduction for the group would just be op and would need to be spread out across the realms.
All realms get 1 cure ns. If wardens and shammys can't get one then friars don't need one either.
They can fully buff themselves all but haste and str/con. 1 charge and 1 pot boom fully buffed.
Doubling the hot would break the class 1v1 or small man. A 120 delve hot for the group...
Too far the way it is. It might not be enough to keep people up in an 8 man fight, but that's not what hots are for.

I don't really see what's wrong with them. They are off healers. Like the warden, they will get groups for their resists. They can't be a dps, peeler, solid support, and a main healer all rolled into 1.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 1:38 AM by rok1

Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 11:55 PM
This seems like the argument for giving wardens 2h weapons. Except friars have one. They got a damage bump, a good one at that.
None of this would be fair.
They can peel fine with a 15 sec rear snare and a 27 sec side snare.
Fatigue reduction for the group would just be op and would need to be spread out across the realms.
All realms get 1 cure ns. If wardens and shammys can't get one then friars don't need one either.
They can fully buff themselves all but haste and str/con. 1 charge and 1 pot boom fully buffed.
Doubling the hot would break the class 1v1 or small man. A 120 delve hot for the group...
Too far the way it is. It might not be enough to keep people up in an 8 man fight, but that's not what hots are for.

I don't really see what's wrong with them. They are off healers. Like the warden, they will get groups for their resists. They can't be a dps, peeler, solid support, and a main healer all rolled into 1.

Why do classes have to be balanced against one another? This isn't a zero sum game.

That being said, to give Rejuv friars a little group love, I have few suggestions:
-would pull the HoT and give a spec group heal like bards. The delve may need a little tuning, and pow needed made in line with other spec group heals
-Increase the heal proc buff proc rate/heal amount if leaving in Rejuv or just up proc rate if moving to Enhance or double rate and make it group castable (leave delve as is)
-others have mentioned group cure disease/poison. I'm partially on board but have concerns that groups might make it a requirement to spec high enough in Rejuv to obtain it
-you could tweak spec points up a tick (1.9?) to allow for Friars access to first group spec heal (like bards might go for theirs) and allow for better (but not best) enhance and better (but not best) staff WS. This would also make viable tri spec type builds that get a bit of everything (think tri-spec mid healer) and still make them viable for large scale RvR in a group and not make them #wtfpwnbbq in 1v1.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 2:04 AM by Cami

Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 11:55 PM
I don't really see what's wrong with them. They are off healers. Like the warden, they will get groups for their resists. They can't be a dps, peeler, solid support, and a main healer all rolled into 1.

There are no off healer slots in Albion. Unlike the warden, they will not get groups just for their resists. They do only mediocre dps (which is fine), are bad peelers (no stun, no guard), solid support (i agree) and are in any way a worse main healer than a cleric. The main problem with the friar is, there is no room in a full group and there isn't even much of an argument about it.
If you want to make a friar viable for full groups, you have to make him an option for one of the roles by buffing his heal line or buff line. If you do not want to do that, he might be still ok in small groups or solo, but that is it then.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 4:39 AM by jg777

Cami wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 2:04 AM
Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 11:55 PM
I don't really see what's wrong with them. They are off healers. Like the warden, they will get groups for their resists. They can't be a dps, peeler, solid support, and a main healer all rolled into 1.

There are no off healer slots in Albion. Unlike the warden, they will not get groups just for their resists. They do only mediocre dps (which is fine), are bad peelers (no stun, no guard), solid support (i agree) and are in any way a worse main healer than a cleric. The main problem with the friar is, there is no room in a full group and there isn't even much of an argument about it.
If you want to make a friar viable for full groups, you have to make him an option for one of the roles by buffing his heal line or buff line. If you do not want to do that, he might be still ok in small groups or solo, but that is it then.

Exactly. Albion’s require specific needs to be filled and have limited space available with which to do it. Having good resists is not enough, they have to bring something else to the table. They either need good peel styles or better healing options (spreadheal, heal pro buff, HoT, ect). They have to do something better than they currently are that’s group friendly. We’re not talking things that make them better solo, only things that benefit a group.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 8:36 AM by teiloh

Niget wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 11:55 PM
This seems like the argument for giving wardens 2h weapons. Except friars have one. They got a damage bump, a good one at that.
None of this would be fair.
They can peel fine with a 15 sec rear snare and a 27 sec side snare.
Fatigue reduction for the group would just be op and would need to be spread out across the realms.
All realms get 1 cure ns. If wardens and shammys can't get one then friars don't need one either.
They can fully buff themselves all but haste and str/con. 1 charge and 1 pot boom fully buffed.
Doubling the hot would break the class 1v1 or small man. A 120 delve hot for the group...
Too far the way it is. It might not be enough to keep people up in an 8 man fight, but that's not what hots are for.

I don't really see what's wrong with them. They are off healers. Like the warden, they will get groups for their resists. They can't be a dps, peeler, solid support, and a main healer all rolled into 1.

Fatigue reduction for groups worked well on live. It's not enough to make up for a lack of End 5, and when they're grouped with Paladins, your setup is already locked with only 2 only two more classes to spare (Cleric/Cleric/Friar/Paladin/Sorc/Minstrel).

Agreed on Cure NS. Insta Cure DZ or Poison in higher spec to mirror Shammy mass disease in Cave would be good.

Boosting the HoT wouldn't be bad, it already heals 67/3s at the highest levels - Mentalist HoT is 118 or 120/2. It should be combat castable like live, Friars sacrifice too much switching back and forth.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:07 AM by Milchschnidde

All other classes have so switch, from a point of view as hibernia we have allways to decide which things we are doing, a warden which is on peeling/assisting has to stop his action to "single" heal - to assist druids or to a druid that is focused. The Bard for shure has spec party heal, which is the only thing i would say would be fair to trade ,as bard you only may heal in case of total emergency u usually focus on interrupting and mezzing. I would give it to friars only with 30+on rejuvenation or similar to group hot---> I would a add a spec party heal similar to Bards party heal and move the heal over time spell to Enhancement. And btw talking about endurance, in Hibernia we allready run with long wind, tireless 1 + endu potion with speed 5 to avoid song switching, so the bard is able to focus more to environment and look out for targets while traveling around.

The Friar allready in my opinion is to strong with the possibility to spec rejuvenation and enhancement close to 50 on both lines. You can allready go 46 enhancement, 44 rejuvenation and 17 into staff.

The player who playes the class, should finaly choose between good healing or buffs or good peeling he should sacrefice one of those utilitys, a Jack of all trades would be too powerfull but bring in healing as a possible option to spec 40+ into healing 35+ into ench

Its allready possible to go 40rejuvenation, 38 Enhancement, 34 Staff and 11 Parry, which is already powerfull and enough the Friar just needs a spec Party heal in Rejuvenantion and i personal would trade thespec self buff q/d to a concentration spell.so the friar could buff spec dex to the party and he would open more possiblities to clerics to spec more into smite for stun/pbaoe mezz. Because we allready know q/d is a mandatory buff in all realms to increase castspeed of supporters and casters. It wont change the Meta much but give him more value. I could see this to let random partys the ability to run with 2 frias that got spec grp heal and quick/dex spec buff if they dont find a cleric for Zerg / Task action. IN HIb we allready runs sometimes 1 Bard specced into healing 1 Druid specced into heal buffing, sometimes a warden. Makes it still hard to buff all mates with specs, thats why we often sacrefice Str/con buff for having q/d.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 12:06 PM by Cami

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:07 AM
You can allready go 46 enhancement, 44 rejuvenation and 17 into staff.

And you end up as a very bad cleric replacement which only argument for existence is, that the group couldn't find a second cleric. Very kind people will then start arguing that your resists are not that bad to have and you will once again realize, that this is all you got.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 12:31 PM by Milchschnidde

Cami wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 12:06 PM
Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:07 AM
You can allready go 46 enhancement, 44 rejuvenation and 17 into staff.
And you end up as a very bad cleric replacement which only argument for existence is, that the group couldn't find a second cleric. Very kind people will then start arguing that your resists are not that bad to have and you will once again realize, that this is all you got.

A Friar allready hasstatic tempest and vehement renewal, Determination as well which is combined a strong setup, be honest that are also major reasons to take a warden with you, use resistances, maybe the bubble and thornweed field with renewal.... the Warden isnt good at healing and will only be welcome to a party if there are allready 2 druids.

So a hib party is often blocked 50% by supporters, 1 Bard u need for speed and mezz 2 druids for heals and buffs 1 Warden for resistances and twf, we lack of damage very often, i wish the Warden had any other specbuff that made him more value then resistances or a shield skill to have melee stun so in hibernia u usual complete slot nr5. with a full Tank Hybrid specced fian for Slam and 3 slots are open for a caster setup usual 1 enchanter with heat debuff and 1 eldritch for ns if possible and 1 menta or any other caster that fits into heat debuff train with at least baseline heat dd... A friar doesent need any absurde buffs that do not currently exist to fill in a great role, give him a spec grp heal and a spec q/d buff for the party and he will ramp up in value because he is still strong at assisting on targets even with 17 points into staff hes damage is near double that of a warden skilled with 39 into weapon. I played myself a friar on camlan and he wasnt that bad as you all are complaining about him right now.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 1:03 PM by Cami

Warden getting shield spec at a later patch was one of the best class reworks ever in DAoC. However, the warden lacking some love is no argument for the friar being a good group choice. Again, there is no room for an off-healer role in an Albion group and warden players should be happy that off-healers are an option in Hibernia.
I agree, that the friar doesn't need absurd buffs. He is fine solo, he is fine in a small group, but he has no place in a full group. So anything that makes him more useful as main healer (better HoT or a spec group heal), peeler (slightly more accessible stun option) or buffer (anything besides resists and bases) would at least increase the chances, that he will be invited to a full group.

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 12:31 PM
give him a spec grp heal and a spec q/d buff for the party

Yes, this would help a lot. I just think, that buffing the currently useless HoT is more stylish for the class than adding a new spell, but I would be happy with either one.
Providing a spec d/q has very low utility on Phoenix where everyone has easiest access to d/q charges, but I bet you, this would still be a big deal for groups inviting a friar.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 1:50 PM by Milchschnidde

Cami wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 1:03 PM
Warden getting shield spec at a later patch was one of the best class reworks ever in DAoC. However, the warden lacking some love is no argument for the friar being a good group choice. Again, there is no room for an off-healer role in an Albion group and warden players should be happy that off-healers are an option in Hibernia.
I agree, that the friar doesn't need absurd buffs. He is fine solo, he is fine in a small group, but he has no place in a full group. So anything that makes him more useful as main healer (better HoT or a spec group heal), peeler (slightly more accessible stun option) or buffer (anything besides resists and bases) would at least increase the chances, that he will be invited to a full group.

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 12:31 PM
give him a spec grp heal and a spec q/d buff for the party
Yes, this would help a lot. I just think, that buffing the currently useless HoT is more stylish for the class than adding a new spell, but I would be happy with either one.
Providing a spec d/q has very low utility on Phoenix where everyone has easiest access to d/q charges, but I bet you, this would still be a big deal for groups inviting a friar.

As for the HOT i would reduce the frequenzy to 2 sec from 3second and reduce its casttime from 4 seconds to 3.5 seconds and increase all base values by 20%...

Sun 3 Mar 2019 2:09 PM by Cami

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 1:50 PM
As for the HOT i would reduce the frequenzy to 2 sec from 3second and reduce its casttime from 4 seconds to 3.5 seconds and increase all base values by 20%...

That would be an increase in heal per second of 80% which would make the spell useful. Reducing the duration from 15 seconds to 10 as a trade-off in this case would be fine, too.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 2:28 PM by Milchschnidde

Cami wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 2:09 PM
Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 1:50 PM
As for the HOT i would reduce the frequenzy to 2 sec from 3second and reduce its casttime from 4 seconds to 3.5 seconds and increase all base values by 20%...
That would be an increase in heal per second of 80% which would make the spell useful. Reducing the duration from 15 seconds to 10 as a trade-off in this case would be fine, too.

Well thought about that too, my idea was to fasten the frequenzy up because 3 seconds till you receive a heal, could be a long duration. When beeing assisted its like nothing and it should at least counter many dots. And lowering the casstime is a fair trade again because 4 seconds even with fast cast speeds its a very long time where you have to be lucky not to get interrupted to "hot" between other heals or melee fights. It should be a practicable combat skill. An alternative would be to make the skill instant every 30 seconds or so, so he could use that skill infight without beeing interrupted (but i guess that would mess up the 1on1 meta entirely). Thats why i would have put the HOT to Enhancement and give him a spec party heal on rejuvenation. So he has to skill both lines and give up melee ability, otheriwise it could end to powerfull and become a new meta gameplay...

Sun 3 Mar 2019 5:39 PM by teiloh

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:07 AM
All other classes have so switch, from a point of view as hibernia we have allways to decide which things we are doing, a warden which is on peeling/assisting has to stop his action to "single" heal - to assist druids or to a druid that is focused. The Bard for shure has spec party heal, which is the only thing i would say would be fair to trade ,as bard you only may heal in case of total emergency u usually focus on interrupting and mezzing. I would give it to friars only with 30+on rejuvenation or similar to group hot---> I would a add a spec party heal similar to Bards party heal and move the heal over time spell to Enhancement. And btw talking about endurance, in Hibernia we allready run with long wind, tireless 1 + endu potion with speed 5 to avoid song switching, so the bard is able to focus more to environment and look out for targets while traveling around.

Mechanically, it's must more costly for a Friar to peel (their melee spec is for tanking/offense), both because their weapon is inherently slower, and because they have a weaker haste (it's not permanent). So it actually costs them more time to reposition, and a longer weapon-switch time vs Wardens - and once they're at it, Wardens peel about 30-50% faster than they do.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 5:51 PM by Cami

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 5:39 PM
it's must more costly for a Friar to peel (their melee spec is for tanking/offense), both because their weapon is inherently slower, and because they have a weaker haste (it's not permanent)

There are staffs with 3.0spd and 17% haste elixirs do not even have a cooldown. This brings you very close to the attack speed cap of 1.5spd which you can reach with some RA points into Augmented Quickness.Given the custom back style snare on Phoenix, the friar does a better job in peeling than the warden, but it isn't enough to fill this role compared to armsman, paladin or merc.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:22 PM by Shadow

I have an interesting idea that would be a buff primarily to friars as well as changing two really terrible mechanics for the better. First, remove the penalty of missing while strafing in combat. Second, lower the re-cast penalty from being in combat to 1 second. As these two mechanics are just completely anti-fun and make no logical sense I think this is a change everyone would like to see. Also, since friars are hybrid melee/casters they would benefit from both of these changes resulting in more of a buff to them than pure melee's and casters.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:10 PM by Ardri

Ardri wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Feb 2019 4:13 PM
It's important to keep in mind the 3 realistic specs when making balance changes:
1) High enhance/rejuv with low staff peels (most popular).
2) High enhance/staff with low heals.
3) Hybrid spec - yellow resists/enhance with medium dmg/heals.

So you have 3 lines, enhance/staff/rejuv. Enhance line is good as is, no changes needed. This leaves changes to staff/rejuv for buffing.

1) Give staff a 2 style side stun instead of 3style. Instead of 44 staff, make it 39 friar's fury (currently counter evade) so it's attainable by hybrid build.
2) Make high staff an optimal spec. Heard lvl 50 staff style (excomm) was terrible? Not sure how true, but adjust higher staff style GR to give more dmg.
3) Make high rejuv an optimal spec. Buff HoT (increase value 20%, increase tick rate from 3s to 2s, improve ticks via making it 10s duration).
4) Make friar sidi staff (cudgel) a group heal proc.
5) Like paladin, more spec points.

Many good ideas here. I've changed my rejuv suggestion based on other posts.

Bottom line is this. Either buff rejuv line to make them optimal 3rd healer in alb grps OR buff staff line to include 2nd style stun and or increase dmg.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:18 PM by noflex

Let’s be honest here.

Nothing will get done, all these suggestions are pointless

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:20 PM by Isavyr

noflex wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:18 PM
Let’s be honest here.

Nothing will get done, all these suggestions are pointless

Why would you come to a suggestion forum and make this post? Seems totally pointless, ironically.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 12:06 AM by Blitze

Ideally friars need help with:
1. overall utility
and some help is also needed
2. to facilitate jumping between melee and healing/curing

Ideas to address 1. utility;
-group end redux
-group haste
-spec conc Dex/qui
-group absorb
-group cure desease/poison
-insta cures at high rejuv
-group spec heal
-cure NS
-parry guard
-a usable stun style (e.g. 2 part side chain)*

Ideas to address 2. Switching between melee/heal
-double the HoT duration
-make HoT castable on the move
-lower HoT cast time
-make HoT combat castable (or insta) ...note this will not buff solo friars as much u think as u don’t have points to spec it)
-insta pbaoe cure disease

Additionally suggested changes with styles
1. Remove banish from side chain combo:
Friars friend (sidestyle(lvl18) —> stunning wrath(lvl44) 8s stun
2. Make banish(lvl25) an after parry style
3. Make excommunicate(lvl50) something interesting as I think it’s the least used style in game. Let at least someone benefit from speccing that high. E.g. give it very high growth rate and make it chain after holy staff or stunning wrath or even just a backstyle.
Options to give it a cool effect as friars have to sacrifice so much to get it...
e.g.
-crush% resist debuff proc.
-group cure or heal
-DD
-atk spd debuff
-group dmg add

I hope Phoenix staff sees this and finds some of the suggestions worth adding, after all the friar is THE lowest RP earning class on the server with only 8 RR5s or above at this moment.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:46 AM by Isavyr

I think that summarizes a lot of the proposed changes so far, with exception of the insta cures, which I thought were really neat, but difficult to balance with Friar's solo game. Glad to see many interesting propositions.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:50 AM by Mauriac

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:46 AM
I think that summarizes a lot of the proposed changes so far, with exception of the insta cures, which I thought were really neat, but difficult to balance with Friar's solo game. Glad to see many interesting propositions.

more like impossible to balance with a friars solo game. they're basically the most OP melee soloer right now or close to the top. Unless you can nuke from 7 miles away don't even bother touching one of these. As an SB at least on other shards you would be at a 'disadvantage'. On Phoenix, they should give me RPs if i can just land a single HIT against a friar the way they perform here. And that's with me running max buff/charge/haste lol. Total joke, i just ignore them if i see them. or if they catch me i just sit down. it's a waste of 3 seconds of my life to even try fighting back since i wont land a single hit anyway.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:42 AM by Cami

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:50 AM
they're basically the most OP melee soloer right now or close to the top

Friars are extremely strong versus assassins and archers. There is no need for any solo-playstyle buffs, but almost every solo specced determination melee dps class or utility caster class has good chances or will even own a friar, so your exaggeration is just wrong.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:19 AM by Hejjin

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:46 AM
I think that summarizes a lot of the proposed changes so far, with exception of the insta cures, which I thought were really neat, but difficult to balance with Friar's solo game. Glad to see many interesting propositions.

For the record I believe that the summarised proposal is over the top and gives too much to Friars. In regards to balancing solo Friars the main changes should occur later in the Rejuv line as a solo Friar is unlikely to spec that heavily.

Personally I would suggest something like :
Group cast cure Poison / Disease = 26/27 Rejuv
Instant cast single target cure Poison / Disease = 36/37 Rejuv, 3 second reuse timer
Instant cast HoT = Rejuv 44
Instant cast Group Cure Poison / Disease = 46/47 Rejuv 10 minute reuse timer.

The above would enhance the appeal of Rejuv Friars but would not benefit solo Friars at all.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:33 AM by Meandow

Personally feel like the group haste/end sounds like a good idea, it would open the option for running more melee heavy groups on albion which at the moment is almost non existant whereas on mid and to some extent hib it's almost the other way around.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:05 PM by Cytrial

Well if solo play is an issue why not take some of the evade down, and other things that make them OP at solo. Then it would be a lot easier to add something to help group utility.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM by Blitze

Friars are not OP in RvR, nowhere near, they are the lowest RP earning class on the server and considering nerfing their solo capability is madness.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:28 PM by Cami

Cytrial wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:05 PM
other things that make them OP at solo.

Being able to kick some assassin butts is not the definition of OP, because this is true for almost every determination melee class in the game and there are quite a lot.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:33 PM by Isavyr

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Friars are not OP in RvR, nowhere near, they are the lowest RP earning class on the server and considering nerfing their solo capability is madness.

Ideally they have both balanced, not great at one, sucks at another.

I suspect they'd beat most primary tanks in duels, but I'd love to see that arranged. Doing 2v1 assassin is pretty telling, though.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:40 PM by cuuchulain79

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
I suspect they'd beat most primary tanks in duels, but I'd love to see that arranged.

Gothwaite harbor dueling 2003...friar vs. unbuffed tank was funny to watch. Friar vs. buffed tank was also funny.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:26 PM by Cami

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
I suspect they'd beat most primary tanks in duels, but I'd love to see that arranged. Doing 2v1 assassin is pretty telling, though.

Armsman, Paladin, Warrior and Hero with 1v1 spec and pots/charges should totally destroy any friar unless they allow him to kite away.
And given equal and decent skill levels and RRs, there is no way, that a friar can beat two Shadowblades or Nightshades at the same time, not even once out of 100 fights. Stomping afk players does not count!

Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:32 PM by Lev

Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Friars are not OP in RvR, nowhere near, they are the lowest RP earning class on the server and considering nerfing their solo capability is madness.

this has nothing to do with being OP or not. they are a visible class with no speed and range. and they can't get groups easily. in this zerg everything down enviroment, this is why they are the bottom of the RP earnings. more importantly, people think that they suck, so a lot don't even level one, just because of hearsay.

but as long as they perform good in a 1vs1 and really good against assassins, the class is not broken imo. it's the class for the players who like that specialty, at least it was for me on Uth2. for me that was the goal an making one. (btw. does NF reflex attack finally work?)

if you want to make changes to get them groups, imo all the changes should be considered very carefully. a lot of the suggestions here would have an impact on alb groups in general. i would like them to be better healers if they spec high in Rej. on the other hand, healing was heavily buffed on Phoenix already and all the secondary healers (bard, warden, shaman) have low incentive to spec high in healing. so i'm not even sure about that.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:07 PM by Salty

Lev wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:32 PM
Blitze wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Friars are not OP in RvR, nowhere near, they are the lowest RP earning class on the server and considering nerfing their solo capability is madness.
this has nothing to do with being OP or not. they are a visible class with no speed and range. and they can't get groups easily. in this zerg everything down enviroment, this is why they are the bottom of the RP earnings. more importantly, people think that they suck, so a lot don't even level one, just because of hearsay.

but as long as they perform good in a 1vs1 and really good against assassins, the class is not broken imo. it's the class for the players who like that specialty, at least it was for me on Uth2. for me that was the goal an making one. (btw. does NF reflex attack finally work?)

if you want to make changes to get them groups, imo all the changes should be considered very carefully. a lot of the suggestions here would have an impact on alb groups in general. i would like them to be better healers if they spec high in Rej. on the other hand, healing was heavily buffed on Phoenix already and all the secondary healers (bard, warden, shaman) have low incentive to spec high in healing. so i'm not even sure about that.

Reflex attack does work! Reflex attack probably lands twice a day for me. If it's not blocked, parried, or evaded. Or if I dont die while stunned.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 9:43 PM by Miscanthus

I'd love to see them get Celerity. That would really mix things up a bit.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 5:47 AM by bob349

Miscanthus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 9:43 PM
I'd love to see them get Celerity. That would really mix things up a bit.

Ditto.

A casted Celerity at 50 enhance
Spec Group heals in rejuv line like bards have
add 10 seconds to the hot duration in rejuv
2.0 spec points.

Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:30 PM by Seige

bob349 wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 5:47 AM
Miscanthus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 9:43 PM
I'd love to see them get Celerity. That would really mix things up a bit.

Ditto.

A casted Celerity at 50 enhance
Spec Group heals in rejuv line like bards have
add 10 seconds to the hot duration in rejuv
2.0 spec points.

All of this..
or atleast celerity.

Sat 16 Mar 2019 6:14 AM by k3mra

sorry i didnt read everything..

but my suggestions are:

lower the abs and af buff by 10 level each so that the highest af is at 35 enhanc and the abs at 34 enhanc .... that would allow to put more points into the other lines without giving the friar more skillpoints ... but something realy good should be in place for it at high enhance (20% grp cele with 20 sec druration at 46 for example

... mid cele would still be stronger even on its lowest rank)

than it would also be nice to get grpdisease cure at 40 reju and disease cure pulse ( 8 sec = initial and 2 pulses druration((cast time+2 hot ticks))) at 35 reju... but i would like to see that also for wardens and shamans too .... disease nerfs friars hot the most and a way to get rid of it for the whole group or over time would be a very nice buff for him ... and if you want it you must exchange something for that like cele
also if you give it also to hib and mid (shaman cant go for red endo and wardens ... well i dont know. i was never interested in hib x.X)..
and since hib and mid does also have grp disease cure that would nerf cabba a little bit and can open a bit grp setup variability.

and last but not least
2 changes for staff .... the change from auto uping in str to dex when level up would be great

and a few style changes:
"stunning wrath" level 44 style (3rd in side chain... 8 sec stun) changed to 2nd in chain after "counter evade" (level 21 after evade) .... at 44 staff you would trade the grp disease for the stun so be much more like solo speced ....(friars do have a after evade stun at level 6 ... but 3 sec is a joke but can still used to bait purge like low level shield stuns)

"banish" level 25 style (2nd i side chain... no effect) change it so that it has a 4-5 second stun but lower the growth rate... it would be a great addition to the peel ability but wont be better then arms or pala

"friars fury" level 39 style (2nd in after evade chain.... bleed) ... in place of "stunning wrath" (3rd in side chain) and increase the growth rate ... ... in grp fights you dont want most targets to bleed so you would think about "is it realy worth the extra dmg it does?" and for solo players it would be great but also needs some brain work... "do i want my target to bleed so it cant stealth or do i want to be able to snare it later with my after evade combo so i can kite heal"

with this changes it would open a few spec possibilitys:

48 enhanc (cele , self haste, red resi)
44 staff (side and after evade stun...good group and solo melee)
7 reju ( cure disease)
7 parry ( rest)
you can be a very good melee in a assist train that buffs cele for himself and the other melees)

35 enhanc ( best abs and af buff, yellow resi)
34 staff ( peeling styles)
44 reju ( best hot, best single target heal, disease cure grp and pulse)
4 parry (rest)
you can be a very nice healer that brings some uniqe abilitys to the grp

34 enhanc (best abs, yellow heat resist)
44 staff ( after evade stun)
35 reju ( pulse disease cure, yellow hot)
4 parry ( rest)
you can be a very good solo with the abillity to kite with your after evade and use hot + pulse disease cure but cant get the highest af buff

ok thats all

... thx for reading ... and now i read the rest of the sides ;D

edit: btw i also would like a change to wardens so that the endu reduction buff goes to nature so that he can spec more melee if he choose to. i cant see the point why it sits in the regrowth line ... if you want get endu buff you cant spec melee lines seems kinda strange o.O

.

Mon 18 Mar 2019 3:52 PM by Sym

A good start might maybe to make the main friar's stats based on dexterity and not strenght ? It will allow him to earn dexterity points per levels, and then increasing his WS ?

Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:05 PM by Yokahu

Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 3:52 PM
A good start might maybe to make the main friar's stats based on dexterity and not strenght ? It will allow him to earn dexterity points per levels, and then increasing his WS ?

Agreed; getting Strength instead of Dex or Qui is a joke. Friars don’t get any benefits from strength other than carrying more stuff while farming (?) lol

Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:43 PM by Sym

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:05 PM
Sym wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 3:52 PM
A good start might maybe to make the main friar's stats based on dexterity and not strenght ? It will allow him to earn dexterity points per levels, and then increasing his WS ?
Agreed; getting Strength instead of Dex or Qui is a joke. Friars don’t get any benefits from strength other than carrying more stuff while farming (?) lol

Yeah, it's more than dumb, it's like that since 2001 when Staff damages were both strength and dex based. When Mythic changed it on dex-based only, they never changed the primary stats of the Friar.
I don't know if it's a hard thing to set up, but if it isn't that hard for the Phoenix devs, why not start from that in the first place ?

Thu 21 Mar 2019 3:05 PM by Cami

A big THANK YOU to the developers for reading this thread which lead to Friar Changes Round 2.