Change/Adjust charmed pet damage

Since launch I am playing a minstrel and I am really unhappy with the damage of charmed pets.
In the picture you can see my testing with the pets (All testing without AF buff):
To mention is that those attacks are all unstyled attacks. Styles of pets do more damage but there aren't that many around.

In my opinion the damage is too low on high level pets and it doesn't really worth it to take one besides higher HP and resist rate.
I know the advantages of having a pet and it could be justified to take more damage if you release the pet because you can break mezz, snare and root with it but I think there is a change or an adjustment needed to make the minstrel more viable in 1v1.
At least the adjustment that the Pet is doing the same damage on the enemy like on your own after releasing would be fair. A slightly increase of the damage output at all would be needed to make taking a higher pet worth it too.

Best regards
Leroy

Sun 17 Mar 2019 2:10 AM by Falken

Seems like minstrels got a bit over nerfed in the beta stage when there was lots of crying going around. I have never been a minstrel expert, but it shouldn't nerf the pet when you charm it and start making it hit for less.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 6:06 AM by easytoremember

Well you're charming mobs, and changing their damage affects all PvE. On genesis the mob damage was too high and the minstrel benefited from it extremely

Trying to implement a modification to their damage "only when they're charmed" would result in mins doing tiny dmg to himself when losing control of pet to break CC and then regain it's increased damage on charm
Going further and applying the bonus to recently charmed mobs to prevent that results in another problem where mincer can buff random mobs to fuck with people leveling and such schemes

But again the root problem for charmed mobs is all mob damage tables which is a pain to deal with
Ofc it sucks that pet charming is underperforming but that is much preferred over what genesis had been with PvE

Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:10 AM by jelzinga_EU

Lerox wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:34 AM
Since launch I am playing a minstrel and I am really unhappy with the damage of charmed pets.
In the picture you can see my testing with the pets (All testing without AF buff):
To mention is that those attacks are all unstyled attacks. Styles of pets do more damage but there aren't that many around.

In my opinion the damage is too low on high level pets and it doesn't really worth it to take one besides higher HP and resist rate.
I know the advantages of having a pet and it could be justified to take more damage if you release the pet because you can break mezz, snare and root with it but I think there is a change or an adjustment needed to make the minstrel more viable in 1v1.
At least the adjustment that the Pet is doing the same damage on the enemy like on your own after releasing would be fair. A slightly increase of the damage output at all would be needed to make taking a higher pet worth it too.

Nice testing - but personally I do not agree with the conclusion. Every level of charm increases its damage by roughly 4.5-5% - right there is your benefit when charming higher levels. The Instrument-lines comes with literally all the utility you could wish for and I do not think the line needs any more improvements in order "to make the minstrel more viable in 1vs" because as it is - it is one of the strongest solo classes in game. Currently, without Charge/Blur a minstrel can sic his pet on an enemy in 1vs1 and kite around, if that somehow failed you can insta-stun, SoS to regain distance and a red++ pet will kill most classes, leaving an enemy without any chance whatsoever to kill the minstrel.

I rather not turn this in a "lets list what a minstrel can do?"-thread - but saying it needs more 1vs1 viability is just not needed.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:21 PM by teiloh

Was this nerf documented/intended? There is no DPS difference on live. Maybe submit to bugtrackers.

I don't get all of these alb nerfs/ninja nerfs. Almost all of the pets themselves do less damage and have weaker abilities on top of this ...

Sun 17 Mar 2019 5:54 PM by Sharky04

I'm all for increasing Minstrel pet damage, if you increase resist rate by say 20%. Running around with red pets is insane. Even without a pet minstrel is one of the best solo classses.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:21 PM by

gruenesschaf

Mobs have additional mob damage modifier, this is to give us more leeway to adjust the pve damage without affecting rvr.

Mon 18 Mar 2019 6:59 AM by teiloh

Sharky04 wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 5:54 PM
I'm all for increasing Minstrel pet damage, if you increase resist rate by say 20%. Running around with red pets is insane. Even without a pet minstrel is one of the best solo classses.

How? Other than the color of their name most red pets are worse than 3-5 out of main summoner choices.

Mon 18 Mar 2019 7:23 AM by teiloh

Sharky04 wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 5:54 PM
I'm all for increasing Minstrel pet damage, if you increase resist rate by say 20%. Running around with red pets is insane. Even without a pet minstrel is one of the best solo classses.

How? Other than the color of their name most red pets are worse than 3-5 out of main summoner choices.

jelzinga_EU wrote:
Lerox wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:34 AM
Since launch I am playing a minstrel and I am really unhappy with the damage of charmed pets.
In the picture you can see my testing with the pets (All testing without AF buff):
To mention is that those attacks are all unstyled attacks. Styles of pets do more damage but there aren't that many around.

Nice testing - but personally I do not agree with the conclusion. Every level of charm increases its damage by roughly 4.5-5% - right there is your benefit when charming higher levels. The Instrument-lines comes with literally all the utility you could wish for and I do not think the line needs any more improvements in order "to make the minstrel more viable in 1vs" because as it is - it is one of the strongest solo classes in game. Currently, without Charge/Blur a minstrel can sic his pet on an enemy in 1vs1 and kite around, if that somehow failed you can insta-stun, SoS to regain distance and a red++ pet will kill most classes, leaving an enemy without any chance whatsoever to kill the minstrel.

I rather not turn this in a "lets list what a minstrel can do?"-thread - but saying it needs more 1vs1 viability is just not needed.

For one, no one is asking for a buff - what OP is asking for, most likely, is a restoration of charm functionality as it was on live. Minstrel charm has already been nerfed several times, intentionally or not.

Regardless a "buff" would not change a thing with your hypothetical, the Minstrel would still kite a non-pet class to death. They would do it far better with emerald Sims, Underhill compatriots, sapphire sims, etc. We also need to stop holding game balance hostage to 1v1 situations that really are not all that relevant.
We

Mon 18 Mar 2019 9:04 AM by jelzinga_EU

teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 7:23 AM
How? Other than the color of their name most red pets are worse than 3-5 out of main summoner choices.

For one, no one is asking for a buff - what OP is asking for, most likely, is a restoration of charm functionality as it was on live. Minstrel charm has already been nerfed several times, intentionally or not.

Regardless a "buff" would not change a thing with your hypothetical, the Minstrel would still kite a non-pet class to death. They would do it far better with emerald Sims, Underhill compatriots, sapphire sims, etc. We also need to stop holding game balance hostage to 1v1 situations that really are not all that relevant.
We

The post is not entirely complete, but saying "no one is asking for a buff - what OP is asking for, most likely, is a restoration of charm functionality as it was on live" is asking for a buff as it would increase the damage of the charmed pet. Read his post, he asks for a buff.

The fact my hypothetical does not change the outcome for a kite-encounter I agree with, but that is hardly any justification of increasing pet damage "to increase 1vs viability". The only reason I brought up 1vs1 is because the OP states explicitly:

but I think there is a change or an adjustment needed to make the minstrel more viable in 1v1.

In any case, do you think minstrels right-now are suffering? In my eyes they are strong solo and have a viable spot in both visible and stealth-groups. I do not see any reason to improve pet-damage "to make them more viable".

Mon 18 Mar 2019 9:25 AM by teiloh

It's not a buff. This server and Uth use 1.65 as a launching point because it's considered balanced. Making pets as they were on live is either a fix or a revert. Pets are already weaker here because of a long list of ability changes, and on top of that there is an internal CD on charm. All this because people whined about pets that really only did slightly more damage.

I also dont think there should be undocumented nerfs. Explanations and data should be released with patch notes. Minstrel pet damage largely affects PvE grinding and helps niche Alb groups do DPS when they usually have the worst DPS. Lower level pets can cover all of the other more essential functions. It will not affect 1v1 much at all.

Mon 18 Mar 2019 11:07 AM by Lerox

teiloh wrote: It's not a buff. This server and Uth use 1.65 as a launching point because it's considered balanced. Making pets as they were on live is either a fix or a revert. Pets are already weaker here because of a long list of ability changes, and on top of that there is an internal CD on charm. All this because people whined about pets that really only did slightly more damage.

I also dont think there should be undocumented nerfs. Explanations and data should be released with patch notes. Minstrel pet damage largely affects PvE grinding and helps niche Alb groups do DPS when they usually have the worst DPS. Lower level pets can cover all of the other more essential functions. It will not affect 1v1 much at all.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 9:04 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 7:23 AM
How? Other than the color of their name most red pets are worse than 3-5 out of main summoner choices.

For one, no one is asking for a buff - what OP is asking for, most likely, is a restoration of charm functionality as it was on live. Minstrel charm has already been nerfed several times, intentionally or not.

Regardless a "buff" would not change a thing with your hypothetical, the Minstrel would still kite a non-pet class to death. They would do it far better with emerald Sims, Underhill compatriots, sapphire sims, etc. We also need to stop holding game balance hostage to 1v1 situations that really are not all that relevant.
We

The post is not entirely complete, but saying "no one is asking for a buff - what OP is asking for, most likely, is a restoration of charm functionality as it was on live" is asking for a buff as it would increase the damage of the charmed pet. Read his post, he asks for a buff.

The fact my hypothetical does not change the outcome for a kite-encounter I agree with, but that is hardly any justification of increasing pet damage "to increase 1vs viability". The only reason I brought up 1vs1 is because the OP states explicitly:

but I think there is a change or an adjustment needed to make the minstrel more viable in 1v1.

In any case, do you think minstrels right-now are suffering? In my eyes they are strong solo and have a viable spot in both visible and stealth-groups. I do not see any reason to improve pet-damage "to make them more viable".

I agree with you that it would not change much of the viability of the minstrel in 1v1 if you increase the damage but it would make it slightly easier and enjoyable.
Currently the only benefit I have from 60+ pets is that they hit more often and doesnt get evaded/blocked/parried that often and a slightly increase of damage.
Minstrel is a strong solo class but it isn't that easy too play and it really doesn't allow mistakes in a fight. But yeah most classes are easy to kill as minstrel and I can live with the struggle of fighting harder classes.
Like I mentioned before I am good with the damage adjustment so that I get the same damage like my enemy if I release my pet.

Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:15 PM by teiloh

If the damage is lower than live 1.65, it should revert unless there is a legitimate reason to nerf Alb pet damage. Based on the realm pops, I can't see it.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:01 PM by Sharky04

In original 1.65 I didn't see a minstrel with a purple pet once, here I'm seeing them every day. Claiming the minstrel charm has been nerfed compared to 1.65 is ridiculous. Pet level needs to be capped at say Level 53.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 4:22 PM by teiloh

Sharky04 wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:01 PM
In original 1.65 I didn't see a minstrel with a purple pet once, here I'm seeing them every day. Claiming the minstrel charm has been nerfed compared to 1.65 is ridiculous. Pet level needs to be capped at say Level 53.

Nope. Minstrel pets were and always have been fine.

There were fewer high level pets on live because the average person didn't want to twist and didn't figure out how to do it. Here you have more veteran players.

High con pets don't hit that much harder.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 5:47 PM by Fk_

Let's go back to the Grand Pooka meta.

Fri 29 Mar 2019 12:18 AM by rblanco

Camelot Herald says minstrel charm song allows to charm a mob level 70-110% of caster's level. According to this, you shouldn't see minstrels with pets higher than orange. However, I've seen guys at Caledonia with red pets (dullahan mob). To a level 34 char, a mob level 37 cons orange and a level 38 mob cons red (saw it in a table on capnbury site). 34 x 110% = 37.4, so I don't think a level 34 minstrel should be able to cham a level 38 mob.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 9:11 PM by teiloh

rblanco wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 12:18 AM
Camelot Herald says minstrel charm song allows to charm a mob level 70-110% of caster's level. According to this, you shouldn't see minstrels with pets higher than orange. However, I've seen guys at Caledonia with red pets (dullahan mob). To a level 34 char, a mob level 37 cons orange and a level 38 mob cons red (saw it in a table on capnbury site). 34 x 110% = 37.4, so I don't think a level 34 minstrel should be able to cham a level 38 mob.

Camelot herald is not accurate.

Wed 10 Apr 2019 9:12 PM by teiloh

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
Mobs have additional mob damage modifier, this is to give us more leeway to adjust the pve damage without affecting rvr.

Can we have further clarification on this? Is mob damage going to be adjusted a lot individually or across the board?

Sun 14 Apr 2019 7:56 PM by teiloh

From what I've seen so far it looks like pet resist rates are also going down after a charm.

Can someone test pet interrupt rates vs MoC as well?