Shadowblades and the Blunt ability

Started 20 Feb 2019
by armath
in Suggestions
At the current game patch and phoenix meta, I would like to point out some disadvantages to the Shadowblade, compared to the other assassins, especially with the custom changes made to the Nightshade and Infiltrator.

First a look at the different realms leather armor resist tables, clearly showing a disadvantage to both the shadowblade, and also a clear advantage to especially the nightshade.

Midgard Leather | Thrust Resistant | Crush Neutral | Slash Vulnerable
Hibernia Leather | Thrust Neutral |Crush Vulnerable | Slash Resistant
Albion Leather | Thrust Resistant | Crush Vulnerable | Slash Neutral

With the nightshade and infiltrator able to choose between Thrust or Slash damage lines, the Shadowblade is locked to Slash damage type, which obviously is a disadvantage already.

When looking at the races of the realm, it is clear that the norseman is a strong race for str required spec lines, such as slash. But with 70str/70con/50dex/50qui the briton infiltrator is not far behind with 60str/60con/60dex/60qui, making it easier for them to achieve cap swing speeds. The kobold, lurikeen, elf and saracen specifily share same primary in dex/qui, with the kobold being at the biggest disadvatange resistwise. F.x an Elf Nightshade would do more damage with a 1-handed slash PA on a Kobold Shadowblade, then visa versa with a 2-handed slash PA, due to race resist and armor resists.

The three assassins have different class specific benefits:
- Shadowblade has 2-handed weaponry
- Nightshade has magic line
- Infiltrator has more spec points ( 3706 vs. 3253 )

But as stated above, in the assassin meta, the 2-handed weaponry is not really a factor here, due to the armor resists. The output of the magic line or the higher WS of the nightshade or infiltrator, is a much bigger advantage.

The real reason the shadowblade is at a disadvantage here, is however the fact that Phoenix has added blade line evade stun to the Nightshade and Infiltrator, even though both already have access to direct evade stun in the thrust damage spec lines. In a simple control comparison, this makes an nearly even playingfield, giving the nightshade a major advantage with the 4s side stun, and all dex/qui primary races a higher chance to defend vs. the evade chain., i.e the lurikeen being a very strong race in the evade stun battle.

With all this in mind, it is obvious that the Shadowblade is indeed at a disadvantage. On Live servers, the assassin meta was not revamped for a very long time, and a lot earlier than the blade stun chain was added to the nightshade, the ability "Blunt" was given to the Shadowblade, allowing them to change their damage type to Crush for a period of time - putting them at atleast a damage type advantage against both infiltrator and nightshade. The lurikeen has 5% base crush and the briton 2% base crush, so the impact wouldnt be huge for the shadowblade in most cases.

I would suggest to add this ability to the Shadowblade to make the playingfield more even, since both NS and Infil have the evade stun chains. In every department except for base str/con on a norseman, the Lurikeen nightshade is at an advantage at this point in time.

Per patch 1.82: (02.16.06)
- Upon reaching level 10, Shadowblades will be granted the ability to turn their weapons to the side and inflict blunt damage for 30 seconds. (Re-usable every 5 minutes). This ability is found in the abilities list in the spells window.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 1:51 PM by Bradekes
Just wanted to add a small 2cents here. You can't compare the three classes like the other two are the only enemy you fight. You are dismissing your own advantages because one realm has 10% resists to your damage type(when NS face 10% resists from both on the preferred pierce weapon type).

You act like you can't use your 2h perf on other classes than NS... Think outside the trio stealth classes about your advantages and see how well they stack up.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 2:54 PM by armath
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 1:51 PM
Just wanted to add a small 2cents here. You can't compare the three classes like the other two are the only enemy you fight. You are dismissing your own advantages because one realm has 10% resists to your damage type(when NS face 10% resists from both on the preferred pierce weapon type).

You act like you can't use your 2h perf on other classes than NS... Think outside the trio stealth classes about your advantages and see how well they stack up.

All three assassins have advantages of their own in respect to the other opponents, surely, if you ask any visible solo they would say Vanish is the biggest issue. I would still say that the lurikeen is the one with the big specific advantages. The smaller race size and ranged interrupts makes them very strong vs. a lof of classes, and also, a stealther can pick his own fights for the most part - that is why their only "real" opponent, that also the original creaters of the game balanced tham against, is the enemy realm assassins.

Blunt was introduced to make Shadowblades more even to Infiltrator and Nightshade - and that was before they both got the slash evade chain stuns!
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:06 PM by Dimir
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 1:36 PM
The three assassins have different class specific benefits:
- Shadowblade has 2-handed weaponry
- Nightshade has magic line
- Infiltrator has more spec points ( 3706 vs. 3253 )

You forgot the part where SB's also get:
- 133 more HP than a Saracan / 100 more HP than a Briton Infiltrator. This isn't because of Norse starting stats but because the SB just gets more HPs.
- To swing with both weapons every time you can actually use a really slow mainhand and take advantage of the haste effect and you can use /switch to a greater effect because you know you will at least swing with your offhand every round. You get to swing at a constant speed instead of an erratic speed.
- The majority of NS and Infiltrators are doing Thrust damage, which you are already resistant to. Slash Infiltrators give up a stun and a gain disadvantage against NSs. Blade NS's give up a bunch of WS due to their low starting Strength.

You also have a less direct, but very strong advantage with population. The biggest example of this is the rate of players leaving portal keeps and how different it is if you compare MPK vs HPK vs APK. If I am somewhere between HPK and HMG I can wait and try to find a solo runner to attack. It's hard, because there are a lot of people streaming through so the window of opportunity is small. But in comparison, trying to do the same thing with MPK->MMG it's almost impossible except during off hours. This means that less Mids are killed running to their gate, which means there are more in the frontier, earning RPSs, which means the whole realm does better because they have more people. This is a snowballing effect. OTOH you can camp either enemy PK with less risk and thus more incremental advantage over time.

Times I have seen Albs camp and block MMG in Emain? Once, maybe twice?
Times I have seen Mid camp and block AMG in Emain? Every day.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:20 PM by armath
Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:06 PM
- The majority of NS and Infiltrators are doing Thrust damage, which you are already resistant to. Slash Infiltrators give up a stun and a gain disadvantage against NSs. Blade NS's give up a bunch of WS due to their low starting Strength.

I dont think we play on the same server. I havent met a single Pierce spec Nightshade or Thrust Infiltrator so far, that I remember.

You are also incorrect about the Slash infiltrator. They DO get a Slash evade chain stun here - just like the Nightshade get a Blade evade chain stun. Both custom changes that on Live were implemented a long time after the Blunt was given to Shadowblades.

As a Shadowblade with around 34 comp. LA., my left axe hits for around 13-20 damage each swing, depending on target. At level 50 comp. LA, its around 22-26 from my testing. I believe that the extra spec points on an infiltrator would be alot more advantageous than the constant guarenteed swing. I would trade that for either the WS of the Infiltrator, or the better resist tables of the Nightshade any day. It is obvious that the Shadowblade is at the bottom in this equation.

Try calculate in the chance to evade on a Lurikeen or Saracen, and the benefit of constant swings become even less...

Im not sure how the "extra" hitpoints work, since the SB has zero con gain, and I cant find any documentation that says that Shadowblades has more life? But even so, I hardly imagine that a Kobold Shadowblade, will have so much more life than a Lurikeen Nightshade, that it makes up for all the other disadvantages... I mean 4 realm ability points, and you nearly made up the hit point disadvantage that you speak about. There is no way for the Shadowblade to make up for the damage/resist output disadvantage through RA's - unless you added Blunt as a realm ability.

And your personal view on population is invalid as an argument, since that is your personal playtime, your playstyle/skill etc that determines the outcome of your session, nothing to do with base mechanics or class balance. If we started balancing classes due to population, this server would become a mess real fast..
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:29 PM by Dimir
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:20 PM
I dont think we play on the same server. I havent met a single Pierce spec Nightshade or Thrust Infiltrator so far, that I remember.
- I find this really unlikely for Infiltrators - I really expect that 75% are Thrust.
You are also incorrect about the Slash infiltrator. They DO get a Slash evade chain stun here - just like the Nightshade get a Blade evade chain stun. Both custom changes that on Live were implemented a long time after the Blunt was given to Shadowblades.
It's a two part chain, and only 5 seconds, vs your two part chain that's 7 seconds. Nightshade's Blade stun is just 1 style.
As a Shadowblade with around 39 comp. LA., my left axe hits for around 13-20 damage each swing, depending on target. At level 50 comp. LA, its around 22-26 from my testing. I believe that the extra spec points on an infiltrator would be alot more advantageous than the constant guarenteed swing. I would trade that for either the WS of the Infiltrator, or the better resist tables of the Nightshade any day. It is obvious that the Shadowblade is at the bottom in this equation.
It's about the haste effect on the main hand and that you could poison over and over - I would face the same evasion but at least you swung each time.
Try calculate in the chance to evade on a Lurikeen or Saracen, and the benefit of constant swings become even less...

Im not sure how the "extra" hitpoints work, since the SB has zero con gain, and I cant find any documentation that says that Shadowblades has more life? But even so, I hardly imagine that a Kobold Shadowblade, will have so much more life than a Lurikeen Nightshade, that it makes up for all the other disadvantages...
This has always been this way, and it clearly testable. I tested this on Phoenix in beta, which is where I got 133 or 100 hp difference from.
And your personal view on population is invalid as an argument, since that is your personal playtime, your playstyle/skill etc that determines the outcome of your session, nothing to do with base mechanics or class balance. If we started balancing classes due to population, this server would become a mess real fast..
Fair enough, this a fluid thing, I'm just pointing out life is not so difficult for Mids atm.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:36 PM by armath
Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:29 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:20 PM
I dont think we play on the same server. I havent met a single Pierce spec Nightshade or Thrust Infiltrator so far, that I remember.
- I find this really unlikely for Infiltrators - I really expect that 75% are Thrust.

What realm do you play, and are you an assassin?
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:39 PM by Dimir
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:36 PM
Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:29 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:20 PM
I dont think we play on the same server. I havent met a single Pierce spec Nightshade or Thrust Infiltrator so far, that I remember.
- I find this really unlikely for Infiltrators - I really expect that 75% are Thrust.

What realm do you play, and are you an assassin?

I play a Thrust Infiltrator. https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Dimir
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:46 PM by armath
I would certainly go Thrust aswell on an infiltrator, to stand a better chance vs. the nightshade, and get the strongest evade stun in the game... I guess atleast the first of my points here, is why you have gone thrust, and I bet that you still are able to down the Shadowblades even though hitting on resistant armors.

But take a look here when talking about the offhand dps output: http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?160659-LA-Mechanics

I think when you factor in evade ratio, which is around 30-40% for high dex classes, I would believe that more damage on the offhand, is of more value than the certain swing. I would rather hit for 60 on the offhand every 2-2.5 swings, than hitting for 15 on every swing, which gets evaded about 40% of the time.

In just days, I had so many fights vs. nightshades who would evade my mainhand 4-5 times in a row, and the offhand even more often... 9/10 times when i recheck poisons from cycling offhands, the poisons havent gone off., i.e evade or miss.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:21 PM by Dimir
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:46 PM
I would certainly go Thrust aswell on an infiltrator, to stand a better chance vs. the nightshade, and get the strongest evade stun in the game... I guess atleast the first of my points here, is why you have gone thrust, and I bet that you still are able to down the Shadowblades even though hitting on resistant armors.

But take a look here when talking about the offhand dps output: http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?160659-LA-Mechanics

I think when you factor in evade ratio, which is around 30-40% for high dex classes, I would believe that more damage on the offhand, is of more value than the certain swing. I would rather hit for 60 on the offhand every 2-2.5 swings, than hitting for 15 on every swing, which gets evaded about 40% of the time.

In just days, I had so many fights vs. nightshades who would evade my mainhand 4-5 times in a row, and the offhand even more often... 9/10 times when i recheck poisons from cycling offhands, the poisons havent gone off., i.e evade or miss.

Against another dual wielder, any assassin will rarely pass 30% evade rate (The game literally displays this with combat info on), most assassins I fight are between 26% and 29%.
There is no difference between their chance to evade your main hand vs your offhand.
LA Mechanics are complicated, but numerous tests haven shown that LA vs DW mechanics average the same DPS. You hit more often but for less (and all the benefits of the haste effect on your main hand, etc). So from a applying poison perspective you have 100% chance to swing and and then lets say vs 30% evade a 70% chance to apply the poison. An infiltrator with 30+15 DW (which is about average) would have a 55% chance to swing and after 30% evade almost 39% chance to apply a poison. Both classes would have the same offhand miss rate, which would lower both these numbers.
Not specifically Assassin related but SBs have MUCH better weapon proc options, I am quite jealous honestly
Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:40 PM by jelzinga_EU
Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:21 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:46 PM
I would certainly go Thrust aswell on an infiltrator, to stand a better chance vs. the nightshade, and get the strongest evade stun in the game... I guess atleast the first of my points here, is why you have gone thrust, and I bet that you still are able to down the Shadowblades even though hitting on resistant armors.

But take a look here when talking about the offhand dps output: http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?160659-LA-Mechanics

I think when you factor in evade ratio, which is around 30-40% for high dex classes, I would believe that more damage on the offhand, is of more value than the certain swing. I would rather hit for 60 on the offhand every 2-2.5 swings, than hitting for 15 on every swing, which gets evaded about 40% of the time.

In just days, I had so many fights vs. nightshades who would evade my mainhand 4-5 times in a row, and the offhand even more often... 9/10 times when i recheck poisons from cycling offhands, the poisons havent gone off., i.e evade or miss.

Against another dual wielder, any assassin will rarely pass 30% evade rate (The game literally displays this with combat info on), most assassins I fight are between 26% and 29%.
There is no difference between their chance to evade your main hand vs your offhand.
LA Mechanics are complicated, but numerous tests haven shown that LA vs DW mechanics average the same DPS. You hit more often but for less (and all the benefits of the haste effect on your main hand, etc). So from a applying poison perspective you have 100% chance to swing and and then lets say vs 30% evade a 70% chance to apply the poison. An infiltrator with 30+15 DW (which is about average) would have a 55% chance to swing and after 30% evade almost 39% chance to apply a poison. Both classes would have the same offhand miss rate, which would lower both these numbers.
Not specifically Assassin related but SBs have MUCH better weapon proc options, I am quite jealous honestly

I currently can't login as I'm not at work, but I'm pretty sure left axe gets evaded more than mainhand. This might be because Phoenix is using the LA-spec to determine both damage and evade/miss rate.

I can test that later this week, but if that is the case there is a small mathematical problem with LA damage uncovered if CD and DW don't work like that
Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:47 PM by Dimir
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:40 PM
Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 5:21 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:46 PM
I would certainly go Thrust aswell on an infiltrator, to stand a better chance vs. the nightshade, and get the strongest evade stun in the game... I guess atleast the first of my points here, is why you have gone thrust, and I bet that you still are able to down the Shadowblades even though hitting on resistant armors.

But take a look here when talking about the offhand dps output: http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?160659-LA-Mechanics

I think when you factor in evade ratio, which is around 30-40% for high dex classes, I would believe that more damage on the offhand, is of more value than the certain swing. I would rather hit for 60 on the offhand every 2-2.5 swings, than hitting for 15 on every swing, which gets evaded about 40% of the time.

In just days, I had so many fights vs. nightshades who would evade my mainhand 4-5 times in a row, and the offhand even more often... 9/10 times when i recheck poisons from cycling offhands, the poisons havent gone off., i.e evade or miss.

Against another dual wielder, any assassin will rarely pass 30% evade rate (The game literally displays this with combat info on), most assassins I fight are between 26% and 29%.
There is no difference between their chance to evade your main hand vs your offhand.
LA Mechanics are complicated, but numerous tests haven shown that LA vs DW mechanics average the same DPS. You hit more often but for less (and all the benefits of the haste effect on your main hand, etc). So from a applying poison perspective you have 100% chance to swing and and then lets say vs 30% evade a 70% chance to apply the poison. An infiltrator with 30+15 DW (which is about average) would have a 55% chance to swing and after 30% evade almost 39% chance to apply a poison. Both classes would have the same offhand miss rate, which would lower both these numbers.
Not specifically Assassin related but SBs have MUCH better weapon proc options, I am quite jealous honestly

I currently can't login as I'm not at work, but I'm pretty sure left axe gets evaded more than mainhand. This might be because Phoenix is using the LA-spec to determine both damage and evade/miss rate.

I can test that later this week, but if that is the case there is a small mathematical problem with LA damage uncovered if CD and DW don't work like that

I can tell you that as an Infiltrator my offhand attack counts as a unstyled attack and I think it also has a slight penalty (either this is because it's offhand or because it's not gaining the defense penetration from the style line) - either way off the top of my head I think the miss chance is ~15%. Keep in mind miss rate has nothing to do with evade chance. I wouldn't be surprised if the chance that the offhand is evaded is slightly higher due to defense pen. (talking a couple percent here) but I would be shocked if it's any different between LA vs DW users. And yeah, this would be an easy test to perform with another Assassin of your realm.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 7:32 PM by Bradekes
CD definitely has no to-hit bonus using styles on offhand... I don't think this makes sense as you're using styles that are supposed to benefit from having a weapon in each hand... I coukd understand using base weapon styles not gaining to hit for offhand but not the styles in the dual wield specline.. Thus needs adjusted IMO. I understand growth rate not affecting offhand tho.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 8:20 PM by Luluko
well I think most infis will specc thrust you are even at an advantage vs them you do neutral and they do - on you. The thing is if you give them the crush buff sb has it really easy with pa+cd vs plate classes if they arent eating slam instant in between. Also doesnt only that one hib pierce weapon have a str/con debuff so prlly most ns will also use pierce and especially with all the skalds/minstrels running arround pierce/thrust is prlly a very common specc for assassins.
Wed 20 Feb 2019 8:53 PM by Cadebrennus
Shadowblades have three benefits that immediately come to mind that other Assassins don't have:

1) Left Axe swings 100% for faster poison application on a SB. Not as useful on a Zerker.

2) Option to use 2hand weapon.

3) 10 more initial starting Strength than Alb's best Strength option. 30 more starting Strength than Hibernia's best option. This is very important. Stats have a much bigger impact in Phoenix/Uthgard than on live because templates max out at +75 stats and for solo play the buffs are much more limited than having 1 or 2 buffbots on Live.
Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:01 PM by dante`afk
Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:06 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 1:36 PM
The three assassins have different class specific benefits:
- Shadowblade has 2-handed weaponry
- Nightshade has magic line
- Infiltrator has more spec points ( 3706 vs. 3253 )

You forgot the part where SB's also get:
- 133 more HP than a Saracan / 100 more HP than a Briton Infiltrator. This isn't because of Norse starting stats but because the SB just gets more HPs.
That little buffer of HP is nothing, it's covered by any mainhand hit form Infi/NS or simply two dot ticks.
- To swing with both weapons every time you can actually use a really slow mainhand and take advantage of the haste effect and you can use /switch to a greater effect because you know you will at least swing with your offhand every round. You get to swing at a constant speed instead of an erratic speed.
Does not really help either, since every mainhand hit from Infi/NS does considerable more damage on mid leather.
- The majority of NS and Infiltrators are doing Thrust damage, which you are already resistant to. Slash Infiltrators give up a stun and a gain disadvantage against NSs. Blade NS's give up a bunch of WS due to their low starting Strength.
As armath already said, they do not give up the stun, they have it even on slash.
You also have a less direct, but very strong advantage with population. The biggest example of this is the rate of players leaving portal keeps and how different it is if you compare MPK vs HPK vs APK. If I am somewhere between HPK and HMG I can wait and try to find a solo runner to attack. It's hard, because there are a lot of people streaming through so the window of opportunity is small. But in comparison, trying to do the same thing with MPK->MMG it's almost impossible except during off hours. This means that less Mids are killed running to their gate, which means there are more in the frontier, earning RPSs, which means the whole realm does better because they have more people. This is a snowballing effect. OTOH you can camp either enemy PK with less risk and thus more incremental advantage over time.
No, it's the same for APK. The constant stream of people coming out when the realm task is in that zone does not allow you to kill anything, and if you do you either vanish or die on add that just comes right away out.

Times I have seen Albs camp and block MMG in Emain? Once, maybe twice?
Times I have seen Mid camp and block AMG in Emain? Every day.
Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:09 PM by dante`afk
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 8:53 PM
Shadowblades have three benefits that immediately come to mind that other Assassins don't have:

1) Left Axe swings 100% for faster poison application on a SB. Not as useful on a Zerker.
Does not really help if the offhand does merely silly damage, and a MH hit from Inf/NS covers both of that damage-wise.

2) Option to use 2hand weapon.
Yes, good against casters.

3) 10 more initial starting Strength than Alb's best Strength option. 30 more starting Strength than Hibernia's best option. This is very important. Stats have a much bigger impact in Phoenix/Uthgard than on live because templates max out at +75 stats and for solo play the buffs are much more limited than having 1 or 2 buffbots on Live.
How does that help if Inf/NS just outdamages SB's regardless because of Mid leather?
Thu 21 Feb 2019 5:25 PM by Cadebrennus
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:09 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 8:53 PM
Shadowblades have three benefits that immediately come to mind that other Assassins don't have:

1) Left Axe swings 100% for faster poison application on a SB. Not as useful on a Zerker.
Does not really help if the offhand does merely silly damage, and a MH hit from Inf/NS covers both of that damage-wise.

2) Option to use 2hand weapon.
Yes, good against casters.

3) 10 more initial starting Strength than Alb's best Strength option. 30 more starting Strength than Hibernia's best option. This is very important. Stats have a much bigger impact in Phoenix/Uthgard than on live because templates max out at +75 stats and for solo play the buffs are much more limited than having 1 or 2 buffbots on Live.
How does that help if Inf/NS just outdamages SB's regardless because of Mid leather?

1) there is no "silly damage". It's equal to DW/CD
http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?160659-LA-Mechanics

3) stats are a big deal on Phoenix/Uthgard. Confirmed with testing during beta. Not a big deal on live since all races on live can get close to or surpass 400 Str/Dex easily due to temp and buffs. On Phoenix spending points on RAs that boost Strength deal more DPS (over time) than MoPain does. SBs strength advantage means a lot more here on Phoenix than it does on live where it is negligible.
Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 PM by Stimmed
Why do people keep saying slash Infs have a evade stun like thrust? Its a 2 chain style just like SBS.

There is easily more thrust specced Infs then slash.

NS should spec blades would be silly not to with access to evade stun now theres no real downside there for them imo.

I feel sbs are at the bottom. But I dont think its by as much as people keep saying. Good sbs are tougher then Pierce NS for me easily. Bonus haste effect always on and always swinging 2nd weapon to apply poisons to both mh/oh and swing always is a great thing imo. Should have like 5 pairs of weapons and just cycle them after ever 2 hits or so imo and the dmg would be great. Who ever said it hitting "silly damage" its worthless has no idea. Hitting with a 64 damage add every time is insane.

To everyone saying 133 hps is not enough hits 1 swing or 2 dot ticks....Fights come down to the last hit so often its not funny specially in stealth fights 1 extra round is all it takes to win that fight.

There are tons of SB's doing great. And that are always a tough fight. But theres tons that love to just blame the class and refuse to admit it might be something they are doing wrong.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 12:20 AM by florin
Come back at RR 14 where you 2h PA For 1k no crit on a non cloth and complain then.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:04 AM by jelzinga_EU
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 PM
Bonus haste effect always on and always swinging 2nd weapon to apply poisons to both mh/oh and swing always is a great thing imo. Should have like 5 pairs of weapons and just cycle them after ever 2 hits or so imo and the dmg would be great. Who ever said it hitting "silly damage" its worthless has no idea. Hitting with a 64 damage add every time is insane.

If you want to (seriously) benefit from the LA-haste effect you need a fast OH. The fastest crafted lvl 51 OH is 2.9 speed which hits for way less than 64. Typically my OH hits for 30~35 on a NS.

Furthermore, LA has the downside that an Elixir of Shard Skin hurts an LA-user a lot more than the other way around. It is not uncommon that the elixir which provides a damage-shield does 80% of the damage of the LA offhand-hit.

https://ibb.co/cJyj9Yz

Currently the imbalanced isn't really being shown in the Herald, simply because it is being overshadowed by zerg/task/killing untemplated chars rather than assassin vs assassin fights. The fact "some SBS do good" is anecdotal - I'm sure the same player would do better on a NS and doing good on a NS is a lot easier than on a SB.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:24 AM by Sepplord
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:04 AM
Furthermore, LA has the downside that an Elixir of Shard Skin hurts an LA-user a lot more than the other way around. It is not uncommon that the elixir which provides a damage-shield does 80% of the damage of the LA offhand-hit.

https://ibb.co/cJyj9Yz


This is overlooked too much and heavily reduces the benefits of always swinging
Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:01 AM by jhaerik
Lets not forget everyone and their brother is running around with high end era raid procs and SB cause waaaaay more armor procs to go off than NS/Inf.

1/4-1/3 of all SB melee damage is just eaten by Ablatives.

In Phoenix-DAoC fast swing speed = BAD.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:20 PM by Dimir
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:04 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 PM
Bonus haste effect always on and always swinging 2nd weapon to apply poisons to both mh/oh and swing always is a great thing imo. Should have like 5 pairs of weapons and just cycle them after ever 2 hits or so imo and the dmg would be great. Who ever said it hitting "silly damage" its worthless has no idea. Hitting with a 64 damage add every time is insane.

If you want to (seriously) benefit from the LA-haste effect you need a fast OH. The fastest crafted lvl 51 OH is 2.9 speed which hits for way less than 64. Typically my OH hits for 30~35 on a NS.

You don't understand what Stimmed is saying.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:06 PM by jelzinga_EU
Dimir wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:20 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:04 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:51 PM
Bonus haste effect always on and always swinging 2nd weapon to apply poisons to both mh/oh and swing always is a great thing imo. Should have like 5 pairs of weapons and just cycle them after ever 2 hits or so imo and the dmg would be great. Who ever said it hitting "silly damage" its worthless has no idea. Hitting with a 64 damage add every time is insane.

If you want to (seriously) benefit from the LA-haste effect you need a fast OH. The fastest crafted lvl 51 OH is 2.9 speed which hits for way less than 64. Typically my OH hits for 30~35 on a NS.

You don't understand what Stimmed is saying.

I misread it, he's talking about switching in lifebane every hit. That is not really unique to SB's tho, INF/NS can do it too with mainhand. Yes, SB can do it with both hands, true. Then again, people only mention the pro's (and overstate them) and completely ignore the negatives.

With how common and easy it is to get 150 abla's I would not be surprised LA provides negative net-DPS in some fights, especially when shard-skin is up. Great mechanic in theory but not so much in Phoenix-meta.
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:38 PM by Bradekes
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
With how common and easy it is to get 150 abla's I would not be surprised LA provides negative net-DPS in some fights, especially when shard-skin is up. Great mechanic in theory but not so much in Phoenix-meta.

Weird statement. I would agree if you said LA sufferes from an increased defensive proc rate, but LA is superior in dps and has higher growthrates on their styles. So I guess that's your trade-off
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:11 PM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:38 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
With how common and easy it is to get 150 abla's I would not be surprised LA provides negative net-DPS in some fights, especially when shard-skin is up. Great mechanic in theory but not so much in Phoenix-meta.

Weird statement. I would agree if you said LA sufferes from an increased defensive proc rate, but LA is superior in dps and has higher growthrates on their styles. So I guess that's your trade-off

I'm sorry but LA is not superior in DPS. What are you basing that on ? Furthermore - if we're talking about Shadowblades (we are, right?) then CS > LA when it comes to growth-rates so it's a wash argument. Furthermore, because the GR is higher doesn't necessarily mean your effective DPS is higher. If those defensive procs and shard-skin procs outweigh Left-Axe 'superior DPS' and growthrates it is a pretty pointless argument.

Furthermore, Dual Shadows > Double Frost already on GR, let alone on effective DPS
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:16 PM by Bradekes
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:11 PM
I'm sorry but LA is not superior in DPS. What are you basing that on ? Furthermore - if we're talking about Shadowblades (we are, right?) then CS > LA when it comes to growth-rates so it's a wash argument. Furthermore, because the GR is higher doesn't necessarily mean your effective DPS is higher. If those defensive procs and shard-skin procs outweigh Left-Axe 'superior DPS' and growthrates it is a pretty pointless argument.

Furthermore, Dual Shadows > Double Frost already on GR, let alone on effective DPS

Actually LA > CS for anytime styles because growthrate on anytime is 0.75 and you gain increased damage from higher LA skills. And sorry bro dual shadows is a frontal style not anytime. Look at LA vs DW charts it's well documented that LA is superior in dps. CS styles may have a very slightly higher growthrate but higher LA skill definitely makes LA styles do more dmg if 50LA vs 50Cs
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:59 AM by Cadebrennus
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
Dimir wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:20 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:04 AM
If you want to (seriously) benefit from the LA-haste effect you need a fast OH. The fastest crafted lvl 51 OH is 2.9 speed which hits for way less than 64. Typically my OH hits for 30~35 on a NS.

You don't understand what Stimmed is saying.

I misread it, he's talking about switching in lifebane every hit. That is not really unique to SB's tho, INF/NS can do it too with mainhand. Yes, SB can do it with both hands, true. Then again, people only mention the pro's (and overstate them) and completely ignore the negatives.

With how common and easy it is to get 150 abla's I would not be surprised LA provides negative net-DPS in some fights, especially when shard-skin is up. Great mechanic in theory but not so much in Phoenix-meta.

Statements like this need data to back it up.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 6:19 AM by dante`afk
stop talking about growth rates, they do nothing here.

if you consistently do less dmg over time because of the obvious benefits alb/hib leather has this just makes you sound silly. I keep hitting you for 120 with my woohoho big GR style, you keep hitting me for 160, guess who's gonna win in the end?

50 LA does not guarantee OH hit every time, chances are high yea, but it get equally often missed and evaded, if you looking for reliable repoisoning you do that on the MH, not OH. how does that help a SB hits with the offhand for 40dmg and let's say 120 mainhand, and then your enemy hits you for at least 160 mainhand or more with crit, dd etc and if his offhand hits too? over time, you lose. simple mathetmatics.


it's mindboggling that I have to explain such simple things.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 6:53 AM by Afuldan
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 6:19 AM
stop talking about growth rates, they do nothing here.

if you consistently do less dmg over time because of the obvious benefits alb/hib leather has this just makes you sound silly. I keep hitting you for 120 with my woohoho big GR style, you keep hitting me for 160, guess who's gonna win in the end?

50 LA does not guarantee OH hit every time, chances are high yea, but it get equally often missed and evaded, if you looking for reliable repoisoning you do that on the MH, not OH. how does that help a SB hits with the offhand for 40dmg and let's say 120 mainhand, and then your enemy hits you for at least 160 mainhand or more with crit, dd etc and if his offhand hits too? over time, you lose. simple mathetmatics.


it's mindboggling that I have to explain such simple things.

LA hits every time though. Every MH swing has a OH swing.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 7:30 AM by Isavyr
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 6:53 AM
LA hits every time though. Every MH swing has a OH swing.

No, it swings every time. His point was that it isn't a guaranteed hit.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 7:54 AM by jelzinga_EU
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:59 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
Dimir wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:20 PM
You don't understand what Stimmed is saying.

I misread it, he's talking about switching in lifebane every hit. That is not really unique to SB's tho, INF/NS can do it too with mainhand. Yes, SB can do it with both hands, true. Then again, people only mention the pro's (and overstate them) and completely ignore the negatives.

With how common and easy it is to get 150 abla's I would not be surprised LA provides negative net-DPS in some fights, especially when shard-skin is up. Great mechanic in theory but not so much in Phoenix-meta.

Statements like this need data to back it up.

It is a fact I'm not surprised - statements about how I feel shouldn't need data to back it up. Ignoring the subtle semantics it depends a bit on your/my definition of net-DPS. My train of thought was that if I isolate the offhand damage and see how much damage it deals compared to how much damage the enemy deals to me I ended up with:

https://ibb.co/cJyj9Yz

Raw damage dealt: 31
Raw damage taken: 24

NET damage dealt: 7 (31-24)

Ablative value: 150. Required proc-rate on ablative on enemy to give a negative net-DPS = 150 / 7 ==> more than 1 in every 21 offhand-hits need to proc an ablative on the enemy in order to be negative net-damage in a fight. That is less than 5% proc-rate and I'm pretty certain the proc-rate is higher than that, ergo often the LA-offhand provides me with more damage taken than dealt.

Now I know this is a bit cheesy, as the offhand comes with advantages too - but the bulk of that advantage (reducing enemy block/evade by 25%) would also happen with CD/DW mechanics where offhand would not swing at all (as proven earlier by me).

All-in-all it doesn't matter much: INF/NS have the option to spec Slash and do a similar spec as a SB would do for the rest (equal CS, equal weapon, equal Stealth/Envenom etc) and their mainhand alone will outdamage my MH+OH. Any OH they land will just add more to that disparity. The theory that CD/DW needs the offhand hits to somehow catch up with the damage of LA MH+OH would require that their MH would do less than LA MH+OH.

It is not even so much about inherent flaws in LA-damage, it is about the fact SB are slash-weak and can't spec for a damage-type to be on even grounds. That is why SB's need either Hammer-spec (not gonna happen) or Bludgeon in order to stand on equal grounds. As long SB's do not get that, there is no way they can compete with Slash/Blades NS/INF.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:08 AM by Cadebrennus
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 7:54 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:59 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:06 PM
I misread it, he's talking about switching in lifebane every hit. That is not really unique to SB's tho, INF/NS can do it too with mainhand. Yes, SB can do it with both hands, true. Then again, people only mention the pro's (and overstate them) and completely ignore the negatives.

With how common and easy it is to get 150 abla's I would not be surprised LA provides negative net-DPS in some fights, especially when shard-skin is up. Great mechanic in theory but not so much in Phoenix-meta.

Statements like this need data to back it up.

It is a fact I'm not surprised - statements about how I feel shouldn't need data to back it up. Ignoring the subtle semantics it depends a bit on your/my definition of net-DPS. My train of thought was that if I isolate the offhand damage and see how much damage it deals compared to how much damage the enemy deals to me I ended up with:

https://ibb.co/cJyj9Yz

Raw damage dealt: 31
Raw damage taken: 24

NET damage dealt: 7 (31-24)

Ablative value: 150. Required proc-rate on ablative on enemy to give a negative net-DPS = 150 / 7 ==> more than 1 in every 21 offhand-hits need to proc an ablative on the enemy in order to be negative net-damage in a fight. That is less than 5% proc-rate and I'm pretty certain the proc-rate is higher than that, ergo often the LA-offhand provides me with more damage taken than dealt.

Now I know this is a bit cheesy, as the offhand comes with advantages too - but the bulk of that advantage (reducing enemy block/evade by 25%) would also happen with CD/DW mechanics where offhand would not swing at all (as proven earlier by me).

All-in-all it doesn't matter much: INF/NS have the option to spec Slash and do a similar spec as a SB would do for the rest (equal CS, equal weapon, equal Stealth/Envenom etc) and their mainhand alone will outdamage my MH+OH. Any OH they land will just add more to that disparity. The theory that CD/DW needs the offhand hits to somehow catch up with the damage of LA MH+OH would require that their MH would do less than LA MH+OH.

It is not even so much about inherent flaws in LA-damage, it is about the fact SB are slash-weak and can't spec for a damage-type to be on even grounds. That is why SB's need either Hammer-spec (not gonna happen) or Bludgeon in order to stand on equal grounds. As long SB's do not get that, there is no way they can compete with Slash/Blades NS/INF.

Thanks for the numbers. More people need to do this rather than just make claims. Have you tried switching to 2h after you've gone through your poison rotation? I can't remember where I've read it but somewhere in these forums another SB was claiming some pretty good results by going 2h after the initial poison rotation. What are your thoughts? It's another tool in the SB bag that honestly doesn't see much use, but probably should.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:12 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 8:16 PM
Actually LA > CS for anytime styles because growthrate on anytime is 0.75 and you gain increased damage from higher LA skills. And sorry bro dual shadows is a frontal style not anytime. Look at LA vs DW charts it's well documented that LA is superior in dps. CS styles may have a very slightly higher growthrate but higher LA skill definitely makes LA styles do more dmg if 50LA vs 50Cs

You're leaving out some important details.

Best LA Anytime: Doublefrost 0.75 GR (the anytime chain is less DPS overtime)
Best CS Anytime: Garrote 0.74 GR; followed-up by Achilles Heel 1.03 GR (average 0.89 GR) - it is argueable that the chain won't land all the time (evaded/misses etc) but even when only 1 in 10 AH land, the CS anytime > LA anytime; especially if you consider the added utility (snare + 22% de-haste)

Even if LA would outdamage CS with 50CS vs 50LA you have to consider that 50LA means loosing out on a lot of stuff which define the assassin-class. At 50 LA you can't get the PA-chain without severely gimping either Envenom or Stealth which isn't recommended. At RR6+ you can get PA (but no CD 7 sec stun) which means you loose out on a lot of opportunities where access to PA+CD would give you a kill (e.g. quickly finishing off a wounded foe in a zerg is a lot easier with CS than with LA).,

Not really want to comment on Dual Shadows. I'm aware it is not a real anytime but in practical situations as an infiltrator it is.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:14 AM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
Have you tried switching to 2h after you've gone through your poison rotation? I can't remember where I've read it but somewhere in these forums another SB was claiming some pretty good results by going 2h after the initial poison rotation. What are your thoughts? It's another tool in the SB bag that honestly doesn't see much use, but probably should.

It's inferior DPS to dual wield in damage, and you lose your defense penetration, so I'm not sure what the point would be.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:18 AM by jelzinga_EU
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
Thanks for the numbers. More people need to do this rather than just make claims. Have you tried switching to 2h after you've gone through your poison rotation? I can't remember where I've read it but somewhere in these forums another SB was claiming some pretty good results by going 2h after the initial poison rotation. What are your thoughts? It's another tool in the SB bag that honestly doesn't see much use, but probably should.

The problem with 2H is that you "throw away" your 25% Block/Evade penetration. That will work fine against casters (but then again, there's not really an issue there) but it just sets a SB up to eat 40-45% evade/block rates.

Please remember: As long as the Block/Evade penetration of dualwielding is larger than the DPS-gain of using a 2H (with some 0 LA spec)there is no way a 2H would be better than CD/DW/LA in any scenario against a class who has high block/evade
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:22 AM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:14 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:08 AM
Have you tried switching to 2h after you've gone through your poison rotation? I can't remember where I've read it but somewhere in these forums another SB was claiming some pretty good results by going 2h after the initial poison rotation. What are your thoughts? It's another tool in the SB bag that honestly doesn't see much use, but probably should.

It's inferior DPS to dual wield in damage, and you lose your defense penetration, so I'm not sure what the point would be.

You're right about defense penetration unless they are facing a class with parry in which case they get a defense penetration that DW does not. However myself and others did dummy and RvR/PvP tests and 2h = DW damage. On top of that you get that equal damage without triggering more defensive procs. Even better, SBs get it for free.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:43 AM by Isavyr
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:22 AM
You're right about defense penetration unless they are facing a class with parry in which case they get a defense penetration that DW does not. However myself and others did dummy and RvR/PvP tests and 2h = DW damage. On top of that you get that equal damage without triggering more defensive procs. Even better, SBs get it for free.

This is what I had from beta (maybe it changed?):

[attachment=0]daoc_sb_2h.JPG[/attachment]

To be honest I'm not sure how you came to conclusion that 2h did equal damage. It doesn't seem sensical--if that is the case, Zerkers should just use 2h and save their spec points for alternate damage types/more parry.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 9:13 AM by Cadebrennus
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:43 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:22 AM
You're right about defense penetration unless they are facing a class with parry in which case they get a defense penetration that DW does not. However myself and others did dummy and RvR/PvP tests and 2h = DW damage. On top of that you get that equal damage without triggering more defensive procs. Even better, SBs get it for free.

This is what I had from beta (maybe it changed?):

daoc_sb_2h.JPG

To be honest I'm not sure how you came to conclusion that 2h did equal damage. It doesn't seem sensical--if that is the case, Zerkers should just use 2h and save their spec points for alternate damage types/more parry.

I tested Hunter 2h sword vs Ranger CD and the numbers were about equal. You are testing LA vs 2h which is something I didn't test. Your 36/36 spec comparison shows a dismissible difference in damage but your 50/50 result is interesting.

When it comes to actual spec effectiveness you need to take into account the amount of points spent vs outcome of those points that are spent. For example, if you only had enough points to spec only 50 Axe (usable as 1h+shield or 2h), then the equivalent amount of spec points for dual wielding in Mid would give you 35 Axe/ 35 Left Axe. That's the equivalency I would run a test on because then it would give you a true measure of skill points spent on a particular spec and its actual outcome. So it would actually be:

50 Axe 2handed (32.9 damage per second)
Vs
35 Axe / 35 Left Axe (just under 31.8 damage per second)

The damage variance is very minimal between the two specs.

Of course it is possible to get a 50/50 spec (such as with a Berserker) in which case it makes sense to go with that spec, but a SB is spread much more thinly in regards to spec points and will almost certainly not be specced 50/50.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:29 PM by Bradekes
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:12 AM
You're leaving out some important details.

Best LA Anytime: Doublefrost 0.75 GR (the anytime chain is less DPS overtime)
Best CS Anytime: Garrote 0.74 GR; followed-up by Achilles Heel 1.03 GR (average 0.89 GR) - it is argueable that the chain won't land all the time (evaded/misses etc) but even when only 1 in 10 AH land, the CS anytime > LA anytime; especially if you consider the added utility (snare + 22% de-haste)


I have had many discussions on uthgard with an old school SB who was rr11 on live back in the day. He schooled me of the power of Shadowzerker at this patch. You miss that the more you train in LA the higher your base damage is for both your mainhand and offhand every swing even without styles. There is also a poison in Envenom that is supposedly unbreakable 40% snare that would actually get broken by garrote.

So for damage think 70% base damage vs 85% base damage then factor in growth rate differences. I am not sure if it is 0.34% more dmg on this server per spec point in LA but just do some math to figure out the difference with your spec for anytimes. I would rather my anytime damage be better to compensate for bad situations that i missed perf or BS, also it is good at low RR too.

LA Calculator: modified damage = base damage * (.625 + .0034 * LA spec)
70x1.89=132.3
85x1.75=148.75
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:42 PM by armath
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:29 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:12 AM
You're leaving out some important details.

Best LA Anytime: Doublefrost 0.75 GR (the anytime chain is less DPS overtime)
Best CS Anytime: Garrote 0.74 GR; followed-up by Achilles Heel 1.03 GR (average 0.89 GR) - it is argueable that the chain won't land all the time (evaded/misses etc) but even when only 1 in 10 AH land, the CS anytime > LA anytime; especially if you consider the added utility (snare + 22% de-haste)


I have had many discussions on uthgard with an old school SB who was rr11 on live back in the day. He schooled me of the power of Shadowzerker at this patch. You miss that the more you train in LA the higher your base damage is for both your mainhand and offhand every swing even without styles. There is also a poison in Envenom that is supposedly unbreakable 40% snare that would actually get broken by garrote.

So for damage think 70% base damage vs 85% base damage then factor in growth rate differences. I am not sure if it is 0.34% more dmg on this server per spec point in LA but just do some math to figure out the difference with your spec for anytimes. I would rather my anytime damage be better to compensate for bad situations that i missed perf or BS, also it is good at low RR too.

LA Calculator: modified damage = base damage * (.625 + .0034 * LA spec)

LA damage bonus is capped at 50 composite here. Tested and confirmed.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:43 PM by Bradekes
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:29 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:12 AM
You're leaving out some important details.

Best LA Anytime: Doublefrost 0.75 GR (the anytime chain is less DPS overtime)
Best CS Anytime: Garrote 0.74 GR; followed-up by Achilles Heel 1.03 GR (average 0.89 GR) - it is argueable that the chain won't land all the time (evaded/misses etc) but even when only 1 in 10 AH land, the CS anytime > LA anytime; especially if you consider the added utility (snare + 22% de-haste)


I have had many discussions on uthgard with an old school SB who was rr11 on live back in the day. He schooled me of the power of Shadowzerker at this patch. You miss that the more you train in LA the higher your base damage is for both your mainhand and offhand every swing even without styles. There is also a poison in Envenom that is supposedly unbreakable 40% snare that would actually get broken by garrote.

So for damage think 70% base damage vs 85% base damage then factor in growth rate differences. I am not sure if it is 0.34% more dmg on this server per spec point in LA but just do some math to figure out the difference with your spec for anytimes. I would rather my anytime damage be better to compensate for bad situations that i missed perf or BS, also it is good at low RR too.

LA Calculator: modified damage = base damage * (.625 + .0034 * LA spec)

LA damage bonus is capped at 50 composite here. Tested and confirmed.
This should be submitted as a bug report as there is no mention of it in their class changes.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:06 PM by dante`afk
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
LA damage bonus is capped at 50 composite here. Tested and confirmed.

yea, this should be a bug report, this makes zero sense rofl. where were the tests?
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:13 PM by armath
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
LA damage bonus is capped at 50 composite here. Tested and confirmed.

yea, this should be a bug report, this makes zero sense rofl. where were the tests?

We tested specs last week on a lvl49.5 shadowblade for several hours.

Any point spent in LA after 50 composite gave 0 gain in dps on both main and offhand. Before there was a significant dps increase in both for each point.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:22 PM by Bradekes
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:13 PM
We tested specs last week on a lvl49.5 shadowblade for several hours.

Any point spent in LA after 50 composite gave 0 gain in dps on both main and offhand. Before there was a significant dps increase in both for each point.
Forget the rest of this post then.. SB damage bugged.. If they shifted the damage from higher skill and compressed it, I would say SB need nerf... If they didn't do that then SB dmg would be capped at 79.5% base damage, which gimps SZerker spec.
Sat 23 Feb 2019 5:53 PM by Cadebrennus
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:13 PM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
LA damage bonus is capped at 50 composite here. Tested and confirmed.

yea, this should be a bug report, this makes zero sense rofl. where were the tests?

We tested specs last week on a lvl49.5 shadowblade for several hours.

Any point spent in LA after 50 composite gave 0 gain in dps on both main and offhand. Before there was a significant dps increase in both for each point.

Definitely a bug. Put it in the bug tracker with your tests
Sat 23 Feb 2019 10:08 PM by dante`afk
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:13 PM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 3:06 PM
armath wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:42 PM
LA damage bonus is capped at 50 composite here. Tested and confirmed.

yea, this should be a bug report, this makes zero sense rofl. where were the tests?

We tested specs last week on a lvl49.5 shadowblade for several hours.

Any point spent in LA after 50 composite gave 0 gain in dps on both main and offhand. Before there was a significant dps increase in both for each point.

how about lower LA >20 and up to 50? A rr2 sb told me he does with 18 in LA 35dmg, that's the same dmg I do with 50 in LA lol.

seems bugged AF
Sat 23 Feb 2019 10:08 PM by phixion
This is hilarious if true, people have been saying for ages LA is bugged. It would go a long way to explain why I see terrible damage with 44+ LA spec, offhand raises by about 20 damage.
Tue 26 Feb 2019 2:11 PM by Jodocus_Quak
Does it mean that LA 39 is enough for frosty gaze (if you dont want to go 44 for icy brilliance) until the bug is fixed?

And if LA dmg doesnt grow beyond, isnt it better to have a fast off hand to hit more with equal capped dmg?
Tue 26 Feb 2019 5:17 PM by dante`afk
DEVS? Has this been acknowledged?

Where do we submit bug reports?
Tue 26 Feb 2019 5:22 PM by Bradekes
https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues

It has not been reported recently
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:33 AM by dante`afk
Give SBs blunt already.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:07 PM by Seosaidh
Give SBs an after evade stun like the other two assassin's. Don't really understand why not ?
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:04 PM by Bradekes
Let's just let assassins all just be able to change their damage type at will... That way no one can complain about nothin no more.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:06 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:04 PM
Let's just let assassins all just be able to change their damage type at will... That way no one can complain about nothin no more.

Lol, this man is the only one who can unite the Assassins!


But to be honest, in 16 years of playing DAoC, Assassins are (generally) the most dissatisfied group of players I've ever observed. They could be 3 hitting Heavy Tanks and still find something to complain about xD
Thu 7 Mar 2019 7:08 AM by inoeth
recently i met several slash speced ns/infi who hit my sb for aroud 170 MH+90 OH
while im doing 150 dmg with both weapons .....


vote for blunt ability!
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:35 AM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 7:08 AM
recently i met several slash speced ns/infi who hit my sb for aroud 170 MH+90 OH
while im doing 150 dmg with both weapons .....


vote for blunt ability!

You know weaponspeed, stat charges, spec, RR all could heavily affect the damage gap you see... If SB get blunt every assassin should get the same option as there is no good reason to only give SB that option. Especially if you're arguing only for assassin equality on armor resists.

Or

Realise SB have always been the weakest assassin if not specced full LA at lower RR. Higher RR can incorporate high CS and will end up out shining the other two assassin. Low RR should just use openers to break bubbles and use high LA for damage
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:33 PM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:35 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 7:08 AM
recently i met several slash speced ns/infi who hit my sb for aroud 170 MH+90 OH
while im doing 150 dmg with both weapons .....


vote for blunt ability!

You know weaponspeed, stat charges, spec, RR all could heavily affect the damage gap you see... If SB get blunt every assassin should get the same option as there is no good reason to only give SB that option. Especially if you're arguing only for assassin equality on armor resists.

Or

Realise SB have always been the weakest assassin if not specced full LA at lower RR. Higher RR can incorporate high CS and will end up out shining the other two assassin. Low RR should just use openers to break bubbles and use high LA for damage

or realise that SBs got this ability on live servers and just before the change where infiltrators and nightshades got stuns in their slash specs which are here but not the blunt ability. also as infi and ns you can chose betwene dmg types which the sb can not.

btw even a 50 la speced sb will do significantly less dmg than infi and ns... i know that because i am speced like this.
anyway thanks for your advice LOL

know your facts dude!
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:40 PM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:33 PM
or realise that SBs got this ability on live servers and just before the change where infiltrators and nightshades got stuns in their slash specs which are here but not the blunt ability. also as infi and ns you can chose betwene dmg types which the sb can not.

btw even a 50 la speced sb will do significantly less dmg than infi and ns... i know that because i am speced like this.
anyway thanks for your advice LOL

know your facts dude!

There are still a lot of factors that you are leaving out, and some you wouldn't have access too. I didn't agree with blunt for SB on live. Just give them hammer spec over the ability to change damage at will.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:46 PM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:40 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:33 PM
or realise that SBs got this ability on live servers and just before the change where infiltrators and nightshades got stuns in their slash specs which are here but not the blunt ability. also as infi and ns you can chose betwene dmg types which the sb can not.

btw even a 50 la speced sb will do significantly less dmg than infi and ns... i know that because i am speced like this.
anyway thanks for your advice LOL

know your facts dude!

There are still a lot of factors that you are leaving out, and some you wouldn't have access too. I didn't agree with blunt for SB on live. Just give them hammer spec over the ability to change damage at will.

which? i mean besides being full buffed, same rr, highest possible dmg spec? there is still the 20% dmg gap that can not beclosed right now.
i would gladly take the hammer spec for sb, but that is really unrealistic i think.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:55 PM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:46 PM
which? i mean besides being full buffed, same rr, highest possible dmg spec? there is still the 20% dmg gap that can not beclosed right now.
i would gladly take the hammer spec for sb, but that is really unrealistic i think.

You're missing SS's you're not stating your weapon speed, your full spec, or whether you were WS/str debuffed.. And im not sure how having hammer spec is more unrealistic than somehow effectly using a sword as a blunt weapon is.. I just do not think SB would be balanced with an anytime option to switch..
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:17 PM by Tiberian1986
I am an elf blade ns and I got a luri full bow ranger with 21 blade spec (for evade).

And I would totally agree that sb is pretty weak against blade. I am an elf but a sb never brought me down under 50% except they stunned me and purge was not up.
When I know there is a Sb I don´t even try to pa I just hit them out with instant dd to make sure that they dont pa me. In a garotte vs garotte/La they are really just victims. I evade more as luri/elf (except he is kobi but who sacrifices the dmg for that) and got a instant and 10% dmg + while he has a 10% malus. Since the cd/la buff I hit pretty often with my offhand with high dmg. These 30dmg hits from the sb feel just like a dmgadd.

My 21 blade spec full bow luri ranger brings a sb down to atleast 20% which is weird that 21 blade hurts a sb so much.
It´s just obvious that sb needs that blunt switch thing what they got on live.
Implement it and if Sb turns out to be too strong then just remove it but I think that blunt is needed. Hunters and sb are victims as blade and hunters even as pierc.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:29 PM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:55 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:46 PM
which? i mean besides being full buffed, same rr, highest possible dmg spec? there is still the 20% dmg gap that can not beclosed right now.
i would gladly take the hammer spec for sb, but that is really unrealistic i think.

You're missing SS's you're not stating your weapon speed, your full spec, or whether you were WS/str debuffed.. And im not sure how having hammer spec is more unrealistic than somehow effectly using a sword as a blunt weapon is.. I just do not think SB would be balanced with an anytime option to switch..

sb never had hammer spec, sb very had the blunt ability...

its obvious that the MH is the slowest you can get lol 4.2 what does the full spec bring to the table? you have to have at least 50 composit weapon + i already stated full la skill..... there is nothing you will find that is my fault why i do so weak dmg ... its simply armor resists
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:35 PM by Amp_Phetamine
/shrug go to the Main Site - Go to the Herald and sort by Solo Kills "All Time"... 8 of the top 20 are Shadow Blades. 4 of the top 20 are NS'. 2 of the top 20 are Infiltrators.

I mean, not sure if Shadow Blades are just more popular regardless of how "gimp" this thread is making them out to be but... stats say they do fairly well..
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:48 PM by Tiberian1986
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:35 PM
/shrug go to the Main Site - Go to the Herald and sort by Solo Kills "All Time"... 8 of the top 20 are Shadow Blades. 4 of the top 20 are NS'. 2 of the top 20 are Infiltrators.

I mean, not sure if Shadow Blades are just more popular regardless of how "gimp" this thread is making them out to be but... stats say they do fairly well..

Just speculation by myself but I see infis rarely solo mostly with minstrels and scouts while sbs nearly never have hunter support. Rangers seem to be the most played stealthers so they often add in ns fights. Could explain why sb have more "solo" kills because of lesser adds by realmates. But its just a interpretation.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:27 PM by Sepplord
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:35 PM
/shrug go to the Main Site - Go to the Herald and sort by Solo Kills "All Time"... 8 of the top 20 are Shadow Blades. 4 of the top 20 are NS'. 2 of the top 20 are Infiltrators.

I mean, not sure if Shadow Blades are just more popular regardless of how "gimp" this thread is making them out to be but... stats say they do fairly well..

Could have LOADS of different reasons, maybe SBs are so weak that they all go kill levelers in DF and the borderkeep-zones. While all others can kill targets in the main RvR areas but get added more often

not saying that is the reason, just showing how "flexible" data can be represented and that you cannot really do much with the herald at all besides measuring your Epeen
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:52 PM by Mancave
LA needs side stun.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:57 PM by Bradekes
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:27 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:35 PM
/shrug go to the Main Site - Go to the Herald and sort by Solo Kills "All Time"... 8 of the top 20 are Shadow Blades. 4 of the top 20 are NS'. 2 of the top 20 are Infiltrators.

I mean, not sure if Shadow Blades are just more popular regardless of how "gimp" this thread is making them out to be but... stats say they do fairly well..

Could have LOADS of different reasons, maybe SBs are so weak that they all go kill levelers in DF and the borderkeep-zones. While all others can kill targets in the main RvR areas but get added more often

not saying that is the reason, just showing how "flexible" data can be represented and that you cannot really do much with the herald at all besides measuring your Epeen

Just funny how people can always twist things to fit their arguments... Just wonder how quick they'd jump to say tge opposite if NS or INF were the ones with most kills... Such drama queens I'd just leave SB right where it's at until we have more solid evidence of a problem instead of a perceived problem.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:02 PM by Sepplord
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:57 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:27 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:35 PM
/shrug go to the Main Site - Go to the Herald and sort by Solo Kills "All Time"... 8 of the top 20 are Shadow Blades. 4 of the top 20 are NS'. 2 of the top 20 are Infiltrators.

I mean, not sure if Shadow Blades are just more popular regardless of how "gimp" this thread is making them out to be but... stats say they do fairly well..

Could have LOADS of different reasons, maybe SBs are so weak that they all go kill levelers in DF and the borderkeep-zones. While all others can kill targets in the main RvR areas but get added more often

not saying that is the reason, just showing how "flexible" data can be represented and that you cannot really do much with the herald at all besides measuring your Epeen

Just funny how people can always twist things to fit their arguments... Just wonder how quick they'd jump to say tge opposite if NS or INF were the ones with most kills... Such drama queens I'd just leave SB right where it's at until we have more solid evidence of a problem instead of a perceived problem.

Maybe you should read comments to the end before quoting them, or you are intentionally ignoring the now bold and underlined part to stirr up drama. Not the first time you ahve done that with comments of mine neither....
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:13 PM by Bradekes
Still applies..... No evidence points towards SB needing a buff, just some looking at armor table resists and pointing out that NS are resistant to slash so SB must need a buff... Give me a break... NS have such low str it's just funny how this is an argument at all... NS who spec thrust(the weapon they'd hace higher WS with) are resisted on both sides so if SB get crush I vote pierce can also do slash damage... Let it sink in a bit...
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:15 PM by Citian
Of any assassin the most liable to have blunts would be hibernias nightshade.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:32 PM by Amp_Phetamine
It's amusing to me. Reading assassin suggestion threads is like listening to millionaires argue over whose Yacht is better equipped. Among the three yachts, one may be a bit better then the other, yet all three are still yachts. Mean while you have some classes out their equivalent to paddle boats xD.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:33 AM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:32 PM
It's amusing to me. Reading assassin suggestion threads is like listening to millionaires argue over whose Yacht is better equipped. Among the three yachts, one may be a bit better then the other, yet all three are still yachts. Mean while you have some classes out their equivalent to paddle boats xD.

way to contribute your lack of knowledge to the discussion. it was very uninformative and completely lacking insight. the yacht analogy makes no sense. if anything you should have gone with speedboat or something. assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged. that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia. not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:01 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:33 AM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:32 PM
It's amusing to me. Reading assassin suggestion threads is like listening to millionaires argue over whose Yacht is better equipped. Among the three yachts, one may be a bit better then the other, yet all three are still yachts. Mean while you have some classes out their equivalent to paddle boats xD.

way to contribute your lack of knowledge to the discussion. it was very uninformative and completely lacking insight. the yacht analogy makes no sense. if anything you should have gone with speedboat or something. assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged. that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia. not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....

Sorry, didn't realize your IQ was in the two digit category . I won't bother explaining the Yacht analogy to you, seeing as you didn't get it the first time.

Okay, so since you want to open with insults, let's see if I can educate you, doubt you'd be able to grasp it though, I'll try my best to put it in terms you may understand.

assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged.
    Wow, this is basically applicable to every single player that attempts to run solo in the game. Great example. Let's see, you're a 1 trick Pony arch-type that has access to stealth (you may not realize this, but stealth is very useful in avoiding zergs), devastating combat openers in Critical Strike and Envenom specialty that allows you to whither away your opponents combat capabilities over time as well as increase your damage output.

that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter
    Oh boy, this is fantastic. I really hope I can help you, primarily I'd start with your grammar and syntax but that may be impossible. Okay, so you claim assassins have no real role on Phoenix... Hmm, well, what is their "real role" outside of phoenix? Based on the context of your subsequent sentence you're most likely implying that they are spy bots? Just to continue, because there are "...like 400 different places" you can port to, utilizing assassins as spy bots seems lackluster.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia.
    Oh, no we're getting to the serious stuff? Everything else was just trivialities? Good to know. So you want to give Shadow Blades access to the Hammer combat line in Midgard because "we've already gone down the custom road..." [holy crap this is gold lmfao]. Great reasoning skills right there, you're certainly going places. Okay then you follow up with "...nerfing the crap out of poison swapping..." /confused, how so? How was fixing a known, exploited bug, "nerfing the crap out of poison swapping"... besides what do you care? According to your 'non-serious' comments earlier assassins are primarily only good as spy bots "...since RRs don't happen". In your opinion, fixing a known, exploited, envenom bug was less important than fixing the "40" other issues on this made up 'get fixed now' totem pole(?) and then just plant bard amnesia their as the primary culprit of the first thing you could possibly think of. So what are these other 39 issues? Last time I checked bard amnesia was working as intended and doesn't have any current bugs?

I feel like this needs an Intermission. You're doing phenomenally well so far. Moving on:

not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?
    So now that assassins are no longer only useful as spy bots we start to get into your personal issues with the assassins. I think you make it quite obvious that your main character is a Shadow Blade, no? That you favor their helmet cosmetic designs? Essentially from what I'm reading is you get destroyed by infils that spec at least 15 points into thrust and lurikeen/elf blade specc'd night shades... I think you need to "git gud".

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....
    Time for the finale, the last jab you can throw in your entire round of misses. The oh so specific 100 hit point bonus that shadow blades have over infils. THE, one and ONLY, bonus, that apparently to you doesn't matter because you simply are routinely 6 shot by assassins.

This has been highly enlightening, your post was clearly far more valuable than my asinine analogy joke post; I'm very grateful to you for informing the community of not only your knowledge regarding assassins, but supportive, clear, and intricate means to correct their issues!



#GetR3kedScrub
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:20 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:01 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:33 AM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:32 PM
It's amusing to me. Reading assassin suggestion threads is like listening to millionaires argue over whose Yacht is better equipped. Among the three yachts, one may be a bit better then the other, yet all three are still yachts. Mean while you have some classes out their equivalent to paddle boats xD.

way to contribute your lack of knowledge to the discussion. it was very uninformative and completely lacking insight. the yacht analogy makes no sense. if anything you should have gone with speedboat or something. assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged. that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia. not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....

Sorry, didn't realize your IQ was in the two digit category . I won't bother explaining the Yacht analogy to you, seeing as you didn't get it the first time.

Okay, so since you want to open with insults, let's see if I can educate you, doubt you'd be able to grasp it though, I'll try my best to put it in terms you may understand.

assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged.
    Wow, this is basically applicable to every single player that attempts to run solo in the game. Great example. Let's see, you're a 1 trick Pony arch-type that has access to stealth (you may not realize this, but stealth is very useful in avoiding zergs), devastating combat openers in Critical Strike and Envenom specialty that allows you to whither away your opponents combat capabilities over time as well as increase your damage output.

that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter
    Oh boy, this is fantastic. I really hope I can help you, primarily I'd start with your grammar and syntax but that may be impossible. Okay, so you claim assassins have no real role on Phoenix... Hmm, well, what is their "real role" outside of phoenix? Based on the context of your subsequent sentence you're most likely implying that they are spy bots? Just to continue, because there are "...like 400 different places" you can port to, utilizing assassins as spy bots seems lackluster.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia.
    Oh, no we're getting to the serious stuff? Everything else was just trivialities? Good to know. So you want to give Shadow Blades access to the Hammer combat line in Midgard because "we've already gone down the custom road..." [holy crap this is gold lmfao]. Great reasoning skills right there, you're certainly going places. Okay then you follow up with "...nerfing the crap out of poison swapping..." /confused, how so? How was fixing a known, exploited bug, "nerfing the crap out of poison swapping"... besides what do you care? According to your 'non-serious' comments earlier assassins are primarily only good as spy bots "...since RRs don't happen". In your opinion, fixing a known, exploited, envenom bug was less important than fixing the "40" other issues on this made up 'get fixed now' totem pole(?) and then just plant bard amnesia their as the primary culprit of the first thing you could possibly think of. So what are these other 39 issues? Last time I checked bard amnesia was working as intended and doesn't have any current bugs?

I feel like this needs an Intermission. You're doing phenomenally well so far. Moving on:

not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?
    So now that assassins are no longer only useful as spy bots we start to get into your personal issues with the assassins. I think you make it quite obvious that your main character is a Shadow Blade, no? That you favor their helmet cosmetic designs? Essentially from what I'm reading is you get destroyed by infils that spec at least 15 points into thrust and lurikeen/elf blade specc'd night shades... I think you need to "git gud".

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....
    Time for the finale, the last jab you can throw in your entire round of misses. The oh so specific 100 hit point bonus that shadow blades have over infils. THE, one and ONLY, bonus, that apparently to you doesn't matter because you simply are routinely 6 shot by assassins.

This has been highly enlightening, your post was clearly far more valuable than my asinine analogy joke post; I'm very grateful to you for informing the community of not only your knowledge regarding assassins, but supportive, clear, and intricate means to correct their issues!



#GetR3kedScrub

1) targeting grammar and syntax on internet posts... Translation I have no argument so I'm going to flame. It's the internet, not a PhD thesis. Try not to take yourself too seriously, I promise no one else does.

2) your previous posts on this topic display a total lack of knowledge about the class and this situation. You're clearly not a party to it other than to display your uninformed opinion here. There is really no point in us discussing this anymore. You clearly think I'm an idiot and I the same about you. we're not going to get anywhere or convince each other of anything.

I wish you best of luck with your chars, lots of fun and many rps. Cheers.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:01 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:20 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:01 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:33 AM
way to contribute your lack of knowledge to the discussion. it was very uninformative and completely lacking insight. the yacht analogy makes no sense. if anything you should have gone with speedboat or something. assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged. that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia. not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....

Sorry, didn't realize your IQ was in the two digit category . I won't bother explaining the Yacht analogy to you, seeing as you didn't get it the first time.

Okay, so since you want to open with insults, let's see if I can educate you, doubt you'd be able to grasp it though, I'll try my best to put it in terms you may understand.

assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged.
    Wow, this is basically applicable to every single player that attempts to run solo in the game. Great example. Let's see, you're a 1 trick Pony arch-type that has access to stealth (you may not realize this, but stealth is very useful in avoiding zergs), devastating combat openers in Critical Strike and Envenom specialty that allows you to whither away your opponents combat capabilities over time as well as increase your damage output.

that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter
    Oh boy, this is fantastic. I really hope I can help you, primarily I'd start with your grammar and syntax but that may be impossible. Okay, so you claim assassins have no real role on Phoenix... Hmm, well, what is their "real role" outside of phoenix? Based on the context of your subsequent sentence you're most likely implying that they are spy bots? Just to continue, because there are "...like 400 different places" you can port to, utilizing assassins as spy bots seems lackluster.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia.
    Oh, no we're getting to the serious stuff? Everything else was just trivialities? Good to know. So you want to give Shadow Blades access to the Hammer combat line in Midgard because "we've already gone down the custom road..." [holy crap this is gold lmfao]. Great reasoning skills right there, you're certainly going places. Okay then you follow up with "...nerfing the crap out of poison swapping..." /confused, how so? How was fixing a known, exploited bug, "nerfing the crap out of poison swapping"... besides what do you care? According to your 'non-serious' comments earlier assassins are primarily only good as spy bots "...since RRs don't happen". In your opinion, fixing a known, exploited, envenom bug was less important than fixing the "40" other issues on this made up 'get fixed now' totem pole(?) and then just plant bard amnesia their as the primary culprit of the first thing you could possibly think of. So what are these other 39 issues? Last time I checked bard amnesia was working as intended and doesn't have any current bugs?

I feel like this needs an Intermission. You're doing phenomenally well so far. Moving on:

not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?
    So now that assassins are no longer only useful as spy bots we start to get into your personal issues with the assassins. I think you make it quite obvious that your main character is a Shadow Blade, no? That you favor their helmet cosmetic designs? Essentially from what I'm reading is you get destroyed by infils that spec at least 15 points into thrust and lurikeen/elf blade specc'd night shades... I think you need to "git gud".

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....
    Time for the finale, the last jab you can throw in your entire round of misses. The oh so specific 100 hit point bonus that shadow blades have over infils. THE, one and ONLY, bonus, that apparently to you doesn't matter because you simply are routinely 6 shot by assassins.

This has been highly enlightening, your post was clearly far more valuable than my asinine analogy joke post; I'm very grateful to you for informing the community of not only your knowledge regarding assassins, but supportive, clear, and intricate means to correct their issues!



#GetR3kedScrub

1) targeting grammar and syntax on internet posts... Translation I have no argument so I'm going to flame. It's the internet, not a PhD thesis. Try not to take yourself too seriously, I promise no one else does.

2) your previous posts on this topic display a total lack of knowledge about the class and this situation. You're clearly not a party to it other than to display your uninformed opinion here. There is really no point in us discussing this anymore. You clearly think I'm an idiot and I the same about you. we're not going to get anywhere or convince each other of anything.

I wish you best of luck with your chars, lots of fun and many rps. Cheers.

I don't think you're an idiot, you proved that yourself.

I literally broke down your entire post regarding your superior knowledge of the Shadow Blade and Assassin arch-type. Your post was literally about as informative/helpful as my joke post prior to it.

You make these base claims that not only do assassins suck (I'm paraphrasing here), but Shadow Blades are the worst, and throw out random nonsensical comments regarding bard amnesia and the removal of life bane ticking to somehow verify your claims.

You've literally stated in other threads that assassins are garbage because they can't continually apply a life bane tic anymore.

Now what are my opinions on Blunt? It's a fair ability. As Shadow Blades only have access to two different slash weapon types, blunt gave them the availability of accessing crush damage type, temporarily, to compensate for night shades natural slash resistance and the infiltrators slash/thrust weapon type and additional specialization points (on Live).

Are shadow blades horrendously under performing here? No. None of the assassins are under performing, this is obvious by just viewing the solo kills statistic on the herald.

Are shadow blades the worse of the 3 assassin arch-types? In respect to armor resists and weapon type accessibility yes, in terms of dps potential, no they're arguably the strongest because they have access to two-handed weapons.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:14 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:01 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:20 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:01 PM
Sorry, didn't realize your IQ was in the two digit category . I won't bother explaining the Yacht analogy to you, seeing as you didn't get it the first time.

Okay, so since you want to open with insults, let's see if I can educate you, doubt you'd be able to grasp it though, I'll try my best to put it in terms you may understand.

assassins are complete 1 trick ponies. hit something, try and do more dmg before you get added/zerged.
    Wow, this is basically applicable to every single player that attempts to run solo in the game. Great example. Let's see, you're a 1 trick Pony arch-type that has access to stealth (you may not realize this, but stealth is very useful in avoiding zergs), devastating combat openers in Critical Strike and Envenom specialty that allows you to whither away your opponents combat capabilities over time as well as increase your damage output.

that's basically it. no utility, no real role on phoenix since RRs dont happen so there is no reason to provide intel. not to mention you can port into the rvr zone into like 400 different places so even if you did give info it wouldn't really matter
    Oh boy, this is fantastic. I really hope I can help you, primarily I'd start with your grammar and syntax but that may be impossible. Okay, so you claim assassins have no real role on Phoenix... Hmm, well, what is their "real role" outside of phoenix? Based on the context of your subsequent sentence you're most likely implying that they are spy bots? Just to continue, because there are "...like 400 different places" you can port to, utilizing assassins as spy bots seems lackluster.

on a serious note, just let SBs spec hammer and be done with it. we've already gone down the custom road by nerfing the crap out of poison swapping (despite easily 40 other things that should probably be higher on the 'get fixed now' totem pole) like bard amnesia.
    Oh, no we're getting to the serious stuff? Everything else was just trivialities? Good to know. So you want to give Shadow Blades access to the Hammer combat line in Midgard because "we've already gone down the custom road..." [holy crap this is gold lmfao]. Great reasoning skills right there, you're certainly going places. Okay then you follow up with "...nerfing the crap out of poison swapping..." /confused, how so? How was fixing a known, exploited bug, "nerfing the crap out of poison swapping"... besides what do you care? According to your 'non-serious' comments earlier assassins are primarily only good as spy bots "...since RRs don't happen". In your opinion, fixing a known, exploited, envenom bug was less important than fixing the "40" other issues on this made up 'get fixed now' totem pole(?) and then just plant bard amnesia their as the primary culprit of the first thing you could possibly think of. So what are these other 39 issues? Last time I checked bard amnesia was working as intended and doesn't have any current bugs?

I feel like this needs an Intermission. You're doing phenomenally well so far. Moving on:

not to mention we gave infs 6 second evade off beartooth at 15 thrust so you can basically be a 5spec inf with a 1style off evade stun on this server while NS gets off evade stun AND side stun AND stun for blades. and SBs get..... cool helmets?
    So now that assassins are no longer only useful as spy bots we start to get into your personal issues with the assassins. I think you make it quite obvious that your main character is a Shadow Blade, no? That you favor their helmet cosmetic designs? Essentially from what I'm reading is you get destroyed by infils that spec at least 15 points into thrust and lurikeen/elf blade specc'd night shades... I think you need to "git gud".

oh thats right, we get 100 more hp than a saracen thank god for those extra hp. if it wasnt for those extra hp i'd die in 6 hits instead of 6 hits.... oh crap wait.....
    Time for the finale, the last jab you can throw in your entire round of misses. The oh so specific 100 hit point bonus that shadow blades have over infils. THE, one and ONLY, bonus, that apparently to you doesn't matter because you simply are routinely 6 shot by assassins.

This has been highly enlightening, your post was clearly far more valuable than my asinine analogy joke post; I'm very grateful to you for informing the community of not only your knowledge regarding assassins, but supportive, clear, and intricate means to correct their issues!



#GetR3kedScrub

1) targeting grammar and syntax on internet posts... Translation I have no argument so I'm going to flame. It's the internet, not a PhD thesis. Try not to take yourself too seriously, I promise no one else does.

2) your previous posts on this topic display a total lack of knowledge about the class and this situation. You're clearly not a party to it other than to display your uninformed opinion here. There is really no point in us discussing this anymore. You clearly think I'm an idiot and I the same about you. we're not going to get anywhere or convince each other of anything.

I wish you best of luck with your chars, lots of fun and many rps. Cheers.

I don't think you're an idiot, you proved that yourself.

I literally broke down your entire post regarding your superior knowledge of the Shadow Blade and Assassin arch-type. Your post was literally about as informative/helpful as my joke post prior to it.

You make these base claims that not only do assassins suck (I'm paraphrasing here), but Shadow Blades are the worst, and throw out random nonsensical comments regarding bard amnesia and the removal of life bane ticking to somehow verify your claims.

You've literally stated in other threads that assassins are garbage because they can't continually apply a life bane tic anymore.

Now what are my opinions on Blunt? It's a fair ability. As Shadow Blades only have access to two different slash weapon types, blunt gave them the availability of accessing crush damage type, temporarily, to compensate for night shades natural slash resistance and the infiltrators slash/thrust weapon type and additional specialization points (on Live).

Are shadow blades horrendously under performing here? No. None of the assassins are under performing, this is obvious by just viewing the solo kills statistic on the herald.

Are shadow blades the worse of the 3 assassin arch-types? In respect to armor resists and weapon type accessibility yes, in terms of dps potential, no they're arguably the strongest because they have access to two-handed weapons.

This is a great example of why further discussion between us is pointless. I'm talking about actual in game experience on daoc Phoenix. You're talking about paper daoc and theory.

Assassins topping the solo kills chart means nothing because they're a self selecting group that primarily solo because they can't group unless it's with each other.

If 2h SB was so amazing you would see some 2h SB. Except you don't. Good luck out there. As I said before, I wish you much fun and many rps.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:00 PM by dbeattie71
What about the kobos? 😮
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:22 PM by alusnova415
If SBs want blunt and side stun then they need to remove 2H from them . Pick 1 SBs

What I find funny in this posts is people always asking for class buffs yet never stop and think ok if I want this buff they should also take this off. There was even a NS claiming NS were the worse assassin on one of these threads lol. Currently assassins class are probably the most balanced between the 3 and let the devs eventually review all classes and make adjustments necessary.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:01 PM by inoeth
alusnova415 wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:22 PM
If SBs want blunt and side stun then they need to remove 2H from them . Pick 1 SBs

What I find funny in this posts is people always asking for class buffs yet never stop and think ok if I want this buff they should also take this off. There was even a NS claiming NS were the worse assassin on one of these threads lol. Currently assassins class are probably the most balanced between the 3 and let the devs eventually review all classes and make adjustments necessary.

2h sb is garbage here btw... i dont care about 2h, just take it and give blunt
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:28 PM by Padatoo
alusnova415 wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:22 PM
If SBs want blunt and side stun then they need to remove 2H from them . Pick 1 SBs

What I find funny in this posts is people always asking for class buffs yet never stop and think ok if I want this buff they should also take this off. There was even a NS claiming NS were the worse assassin on one of these threads lol. Currently assassins class are probably the most balanced between the 3 and let the devs eventually review all classes and make adjustments necessary.

SB 2h is trash.2h SB's are trash.Non-rookie sb's have a 1hander in their 2h slot.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:41 PM by Seosaidh
Yeah 2h is really trash. I have never seen a SB use 2h regularly. Please give blunt or after evade stun and i'd take CD mechanics on LA in a heart beat. Instead of having LA swing and miss or get evaded almost 70% of the time, which then opens up for NS/Infil to afer evade stun and win gimmie CD please.
Mon 11 Mar 2019 10:26 AM by dante`afk
blunt where?
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:19 AM by Riac
people keep talking about these tests that indicate la dmg is on par with cd or dw dmg over the course of a set period of time. how long is this window of time? Most of the stealther fights i get into are shorter than 15 seconds.... I'm guessing this period of time is longer than 15 seconds.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:57 AM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:19 AM
people keep talking about these tests that indicate la dmg is on par with cd or dw dmg over the course of a set period of time. how long is this window of time? Most of the stealther fights i get into are shorter than 15 seconds.... I'm guessing this period of time is longer than 15 seconds.

LA has always had better dps... there is no set time for DPS except for seconds... lol

Plenty of tests show LA having about 5% more dps just because of the mechanics. It is probably higher with the new changes causing MH dmg to be extremely higher than usual here. It's not really a big deal as pretty much all DW types are basically even, though, again, with these custom changes it starts to favor LA with its higher growth rates. Now stun wise, LA kinda lagging behind having a 2-part chain, which I am sure is not easy to accomplish... Still no conclusive reasoning to give SB any goodies, as they are the most prevalent stealther, and also have the most # of RR5+ out of all the stealther(edit: excluding Minstrel which is not always stealth spec).

Siting: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:09 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:57 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:19 AM
people keep talking about these tests that indicate la dmg is on par with cd or dw dmg over the course of a set period of time. how long is this window of time? Most of the stealther fights i get into are shorter than 15 seconds.... I'm guessing this period of time is longer than 15 seconds.

LA has always had better dps... there is no set time for DPS except for seconds... lol

Plenty of tests show LA having about 5% more dps just because of the mechanics. It is probably higher with the new changes causing MH dmg to be extremely higher than usual here. It's not really a big deal as pretty much all DW types are basically even, though, again, with these custom changes it starts to favor LA with its higher growth rates. Now stun wise, LA kinda lagging behind having a 2-part chain, which I am sure is not easy to accomplish... Still no conclusive reasoning to give SB any goodies, as they are the most prevalent stealther, and also have the most # of RR5+ out of all the stealther(edit: excluding Minstrel which is not always stealth spec).

Siting: http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics/la_cd_dw_mechanics.html

just because a class is more prevalent doesn't seem like a very good reason to deny them access to a skill they would otherwise have @ this patch level. Also my MH dmg is not extremely high, especially when compared to NS MH damage or slash infs. They are doing more MH dmg than my MH and OH combined. I assume someone is going to say "but it swings everytime" when it's swinging for 20-30 dmg a swing it seems like more of a liability than a boon especially when people are using shard skin pots.
last night i changed my spec from 44 cs/ 22 la to 44 la 21 cs to see if i could do some of those high GR doublefrosts i keep hearing about and it was quite laughable, OH swing dmg went up by maybe 10, if that even.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:14 AM by dante`afk
^ this,

you see more sb's than ns/infi because there are more players on midgard who nolife pretty hard, and ppl here like hardmode and not easymode as their counterparts are.

LA is a joke, MH + OH does combined less dmg than one mainhand hit from infi/ns, not to speak of a bladeshade or bladeranger, they absolutely wreck sbs.

i don't even know why I keep castrating myself like this, maybe I'm a masochist playing this shit class.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:29 AM by Seosaidh
I find it hard to believe that LA has 5% more dmg than CD/DW. I usually start a fight with any DW/CD user by having them evade my left axe 3 times. And of course it plays a role how long a stealther fight is, specifically for stealthers at least. I mean my LA is evaded and misses so often its not even funny. DW/CD "proc" around 70-80 percent of the time for more dmg than the reduced LA, how does this not affect total dmg in over a given period of time?

A stealther fight is maybe comprised of 10 styled hits? DW/CD will net you 6-8 hits with full dmg versus LA that SWINGS everytime but is evaded/misses a great deal.

Granted i have not tested but i do not believe for one second LA is on par with DW/CD. But yeah, thats my general take on it. Also, slash infils/bladeshades completely destroy SBs. A slashinfil hit me for 270 dmg with one style the other day. I bet several things procced but still. Even if i open up with PA chain sometimes they tend to win or best case we might kill each others with the dots.

Yeah, im not the most informed but this is how I perceive things from my point of view.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:25 AM by Bradekes
Seosaidh wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:29 AM
I find it hard to believe that LA has 5% more dmg than CD/DW. I usually start a fight with any DW/CD user by having them evade my left axe 3 times. And of course it plays a role how long a stealther fight is, specifically for stealthers at least. I mean my LA is evaded and misses so often its not even funny. DW/CD "proc" around 70-80 percent of the time for more dmg than the reduced LA, how does this not affect total dmg in over a given period of time?

A stealther fight is maybe comprised of 10 styled hits? DW/CD will net you 6-8 hits with full dmg versus LA that SWINGS everytime but is evaded/misses a great deal.

Granted i have not tested but i do not believe for one second LA is on par with DW/CD. But yeah, thats my general take on it. Also, slash infils/bladeshades completely destroy SBs. A slashinfil hit me for 270 dmg with one style the other day. I bet several things procced but still. Even if i open up with PA chain sometimes they tend to win or best case we might kill each others with the dots.

Yeah, im not the most informed but this is how I perceive things from my point of view.

Why is every SB agrument they get evaded a lot??? Like you never evade anything at all? There is no more chance for an offhand attack to be evaded than a mainhand... the only difference is miss chance... so honestly how about you all try the other stealthers out and see if your attacks don't get evaded or how hard you feel like you hit...

Little addition here: if you really think SB dmg is so bad you should do some testing and submit a bug report... Because you should be destroying despite not having crush damage. i think Crush damage would be a bandage to a malfunctioning system not what is truly needed...
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:10 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:25 AM
Seosaidh wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:29 AM
I find it hard to believe that LA has 5% more dmg than CD/DW. I usually start a fight with any DW/CD user by having them evade my left axe 3 times. And of course it plays a role how long a stealther fight is, specifically for stealthers at least. I mean my LA is evaded and misses so often its not even funny. DW/CD "proc" around 70-80 percent of the time for more dmg than the reduced LA, how does this not affect total dmg in over a given period of time?

A stealther fight is maybe comprised of 10 styled hits? DW/CD will net you 6-8 hits with full dmg versus LA that SWINGS everytime but is evaded/misses a great deal.

Granted i have not tested but i do not believe for one second LA is on par with DW/CD. But yeah, thats my general take on it. Also, slash infils/bladeshades completely destroy SBs. A slashinfil hit me for 270 dmg with one style the other day. I bet several things procced but still. Even if i open up with PA chain sometimes they tend to win or best case we might kill each others with the dots.

Yeah, im not the most informed but this is how I perceive things from my point of view.

Why is every SB agrument they get evaded a lot??? Like you never evade anything at all? There is no more chance for an offhand attack to be evaded than a mainhand... the only difference is miss chance... so honestly how about you all try the other stealthers out and see if your attacks don't get evaded or how hard you feel like you hit...

Little addition here: if you really think SB dmg is so bad you should do some testing and submit a bug report... Because you should be destroying despite not having crush damage. i think Crush damage would be a bandage to a malfunctioning system not what is truly needed...

Do you play a stealther here? If not then i would say you are just doing paper DAOC and not experiencing what is happening in the field. The fact that you said "you should be destroying despite not having crush damage" sort of implies to me that you have no first hand knowledge of what the interaction between the stealthers is like beyond the spread sheet that you looked at.

the evasion argument stems from the risk of it opening us up to dragon fang and other evade styles, for the shit dmg it brings its certainly not worth the risk of being exposed to that. Also, I don't really have to try out the other stealthers to see how hard they hit, i can view that in my combat log... and before you go off on the charge tangent I use af, s/c charge, and combined forces and they are still putting up bigger numbers than me; as both 44LA spec and 44CS spec (composite weaps/stealth/venom obv). the only ones not hitting harder are the thrust infs, they are hitting about the same as me but they have dragon fang :/.

you also sort of darted past the argument i mentioned earlier. just because a class is prevalent should not deny them access to an ability they should have at this patch level.

I would also like to point out that the first 6 pages of this post are ppl slamming sbs with LA working as intended and then the dude points out that we dont get any additional damage for speccing LA past composite 50. soooooo, not only was the damage low it was straight up bugged and in my opinion something is still wrong with the damage. whether ns/infs are over tuned or sb is under tuned may still be up for debate, but to pretend they are on level fields is just a joke of a stance to have imo.

Also on a completely unrelated note, I scrolled through your post history a bit and i think its pretty lmao you are advocating for wardens to get 2h or spear weaps, something they have never ever had, and yet you are staunchly against me having something my class did have @ this very patch level. whether it's a bandaid or not we had it and it would help our situation a whole lot to have again. i don't even care about the resists being how they are, just give me a way to compete.

having an abil that turns our damage to blunt for 30secs on a 5 minute timer is not going to make us over the moon op, I'm just trying to be as strong as a NS for 30 secs, this dude is always gonna be that strong.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:39 AM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:10 AM
you also sort of darted past the argument i mentioned earlier. just because a class is prevalent should not deny them access to an ability they should have at this patch level.


I can pick and choose which parts I reply too, like your monstrous amount of text I deleted just to respond to this... I am saying if the damage is bugged submit a bug report otherwise it is working as intended... If you think having an offhand weapon is detrimental to openning up yourself to reactive styles then I am not sure how the devs are supposed to help you with that and every stealther is DW and faces the same issue?

I also say should be, because I haven't been able to test the new changes to dw/cd/la so I am going by paper daoc atm... if there is a problem and you didn't notice a giant dmg leap from before then maybe you should submit a bug report like I said before... I don't want to pin point and argue every little point you have because most are not related to a real discussion on this thread and more of whining and complaining..

Also if you say they should have blunt at this patch level, I'd like to see the patch notes as I am pretty sure that was added after catacombs.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:46 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:39 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:10 AM
you also sort of darted past the argument i mentioned earlier. just because a class is prevalent should not deny them access to an ability they should have at this patch level.


I can pick and choose which parts I reply too, like your monstrous amount of text I deleted just to respond to this... I am saying if the damage is bugged submit a bug report otherwise it is working as intended... If you think having an offhand weapon is detrimental to openning up yourself to reactive styles then I am not sure how the devs are supposed to help you with that and every stealther is DW and faces the same issue?

I also say should be, because I haven't been able to test the new changes to dw/cd/la so I am going by paper daoc atm... if there is a problem and you didn't notice a giant dmg leap from before then maybe you should submit a bug report like I said before... I don't want to pin point and argue every little point you have because most are not related to a real discussion on this thread and more of whining and complaining..

Also if you say they should have blunt at this patch level, I'd like to see the patch notes as I am pretty sure that was added after catacombs.

it was a massive amount of text because they are rebutles to your previous large amount of text, you pick and choose the easy stuff to answer because you are unable to rebut my points. also a bug report was just entered last week about left axe, so the wheels are turning but people like you are part of the problem tbh. just talking shit and saying things like "working as intended" when in reality you have no clue how its working.

also your point about other dw classes having that same risk is not valid, they dont swing with every round which translates to some of the risk being mitigated for them and id gladly expose myself to that risk if my OH had the potential to hit like theirs. previous to the poisons changes you could make the argument about cycling poisons quicker, but thats out the window now.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:20 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:25 AM
Why is every SB agrument they get evaded a lot??? Like you never evade anything at all? There is no more chance for an offhand attack to be evaded than a mainhand... the only difference is miss chance... so honestly how about you all try the other stealthers out and see if your attacks don't get evaded or how hard you feel like you hit...

Just to point out: This is wrong. A SB with less than 52 composite Left-Axe has a higher chance to be evaded on his offhand than his mainhand. This is because LA has its own WS on the offhand, contrary to CD/DW.

Luckily an evaded LA-offhand doesn't give the enemy an opportunity to execute his off-evade chain, and the difference is "only" 2-3% (depending on your LA-spec) but I did feel like pointing this out
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:44 AM by Riac
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:20 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:25 AM
Why is every SB agrument they get evaded a lot??? Like you never evade anything at all? There is no more chance for an offhand attack to be evaded than a mainhand... the only difference is miss chance... so honestly how about you all try the other stealthers out and see if your attacks don't get evaded or how hard you feel like you hit...

Just to point out: This is wrong. A SB with less than 52 composite Left-Axe has a higher chance to be evaded on his offhand than his mainhand. This is because LA has its own WS on the offhand, contrary to CD/DW.

Luckily an evaded LA-offhand doesn't give the enemy an opportunity to execute his off-evade chain, and the difference is "only" 2-3% (depending on your LA-spec) but I did feel like pointing this out

https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/e6275765-28e0-4d8f-9563-dad143b571ab

someone entered that into the bug tracker 3 days ago, if that's how it work then hopefully that's how it remains.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:09 AM by inoeth
Seosaidh wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:29 AM
I find it hard to believe that LA has 5% more dmg than CD/DW. I usually start a fight with any DW/CD user by having them evade my left axe 3 times. And of course it plays a role how long a stealther fight is, specifically for stealthers at least. I mean my LA is evaded and misses so often its not even funny. DW/CD "proc" around 70-80 percent of the time for more dmg than the reduced LA, how does this not affect total dmg in over a given period of time?

A stealther fight is maybe comprised of 10 styled hits? DW/CD will net you 6-8 hits with full dmg versus LA that SWINGS everytime but is evaded/misses a great deal.

Granted i have not tested but i do not believe for one second LA is on par with DW/CD. But yeah, thats my general take on it. Also, slash infils/bladeshades completely destroy SBs. A slashinfil hit me for 270 dmg with one style the other day. I bet several things procced but still. Even if i open up with PA chain sometimes they tend to win or best case we might kill each others with the dots.

Yeah, im not the most informed but this is how I perceive things from my point of view.

this^^
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:33 AM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:10 AM
, and yet you are staunchly against me having something my class did have @ this very patch level. whether it's a bandaid or not we had it and it would help our situation a whole lot to have again.

Alright, no SB didn't get Blunt ability until patch 1.82... So far cry from having it at 1.65.. They just nerfed NS spell damage quite a bit based on patch level so I don't see them changing this. And I'd like to see the core mechanic of LA fixed damage-wise then them adding blunt ability then fixing LA at some point making SB broken later...
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:34 AM by dante`afk
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:25 AM
Why is every SB agrument they get evaded a lot??? Like you never evade anything at all? There is no more chance for an offhand attack to be evaded than a mainhand... the only difference is miss chance... so honestly how about you all try the other stealthers out and see if your attacks don't get evaded or how hard you feel like you hit...

Little addition here: if you really think SB dmg is so bad you should do some testing and submit a bug report... Because you should be destroying despite not having crush damage. i think Crush damage would be a bandage to a malfunctioning system not what is truly needed...

something is definitely wrong with the miss/evade tables for SB, and I submitted that in the bugtracker.

things like this here: https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyHeadstrongSlothImGlitch is very common and other SBs have told me the same
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:00 PM by Warlay
yes that we were already discussing in the hib evade bug thread
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:34 PM by Bradekes
I just think that y'all need to look at the issue from a different perspective. Most likely it isn't the lack of good damage type causing the problems everyone is stating. If you think LA is bugged or not performing right do some testing.. It is easy just unequip you LA test your mainhand damage, re-equip your LA use same styles on both tests and see if you're truly missing out on that much damage from LA.

No way a 20% difference in resist damage type would cause a mainhand attack to deal more damage than both your hits. Spec matters a lot and RR because SB need rr4 to start to compete. (Was like that in live as I had SB on mordred and it tested true)

I honestly think y'all would keep on complaining even after you received the crush damage toggle from 1.82.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:35 PM by jelzinga_EU
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:34 AM
something is definitely wrong with the miss/evade tables for SB, and I submitted that in the bugtracker.

things like this here: https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyHeadstrongSlothImGlitch is very common and other SBs have told me the same

This is interesting. I noticed that a few times I had 5 evades in a row on my mainhand on my SB. Some quick napkin-math tells me that if an enemy has 30% chance to evade, the odds of this happening are 0.3^5 = 0.2%. This is uncommon, but not impossible. However, I was having my doubts as I said it happened a few times, but the sample-size is relatively small. If more people see this behaviour happening, be it SB's or other classes, it might be worth investigating more.

I remember there was some changes to the random-code and a "pseudo-random" generator was introduced. Maybe something is borked up there for combat-rolls ?
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:41 PM by Bradekes
If what y'all are saying about evade rates is true, then maybe their algorithms for defense penetration from LA is backwords making the enemy have more chance instead of less. Could be an easy mistake to make in coding..
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:57 PM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:34 PM
No way a 20% difference in resist damage type would cause a mainhand attack to deal more damage than both your hits. Spec matters a lot and RR because SB need rr4 to start to compete. (Was like that in live as I had SB on mordred and it tested true)

I honestly think y'all would keep on complaining even after you received the crush damage toggle from 1.82.

I'm not saying LA is bugged, but I'm pretty sure it is (almost) possible to have MH+OH from SB be less than MH only from a NS. Depending on the spec if you assume lowish Left-Axe and high enough Sword (e.g. 39+13) and 44+13 CS to "emulate" a common NS-spec it is not uncommon to see something like 110 MH, 30 OH when hitting a NS, equalling 140 total-damage. Sure, weapon-speeds and all matter, but it is safe to assume a 140 mainhand-hit is not uncommon or impossible on a NS hitting a SB.

Even then, I do not think you should take all those complaints (completely) literally - but more like a statement which shows the disparity. The 20% difference in resist is out of the control of the SB or LA-mechanics, just armour-tables. Whether LA is 5% ahead or behind in CD/DW does barely matter when there is a 20% difference somewhere else. Giving SB's access to Bludgeon would atleast remove the direct 20% difference and then there is "only" a 5% disparity rather than the 15%-25% it is now.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:26 PM by Bradekes
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:57 PM
Giving SB's access to Bludgeon would atleast remove the direct 20% difference and then there is "only" a 5% disparity rather than the 15%-25% it is now.

The only problem with this s if they fix LA to where SB no longer needs bludgeon to compete then SB gunna complain that they removed it... No bandaids fix the real issues then if they still need bludgeon then we can address it.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:34 PM by Seosaidh
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:34 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:25 AM
Why is every SB agrument they get evaded a lot??? Like you never evade anything at all? There is no more chance for an offhand attack to be evaded than a mainhand... the only difference is miss chance... so honestly how about you all try the other stealthers out and see if your attacks don't get evaded or how hard you feel like you hit...

Little addition here: if you really think SB dmg is so bad you should do some testing and submit a bug report... Because you should be destroying despite not having crush damage. i think Crush damage would be a bandage to a malfunctioning system not what is truly needed...

something is definitely wrong with the miss/evade tables for SB, and I submitted that in the bugtracker.

things like this here: https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyHeadstrongSlothImGlitch is very common and other SBs have told me the same

Yeah i dont know whether it is bug or not, but the other day i got evaded 7 times (sometimes mainhand and sometimes offhand according to the combat log). Maybe I was unlucky, but it felt kind of off to me.

I know the perfect solution to keep things a bit more balanced between stealthers. Remove CD/DW and give them all LA instead
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:55 PM by gruenesschaf
Bad streaks is what is more memorable and hence always why people will complain about rng.

We basically have 3 different variants for checking chances in place currently:

Variant 1: Normal / Pseudo rng with the number at face value:
Every use / comparison is entirely independent of any previous checks and just gets a random number and sees if it's less than or equal to the chance. This can have high good and high bad streaks. The usage was tested when used in a single threaded multiple consumer environment and also multi threaded multiple consumer and both cases result in the expected rng distribution without huge anomalies between the consumer.
This is as random as it gets.

Variant 2: Random number tables, also known as card deck:
Probably best to explain as a deck of cards: All possible numbers (in our case 1 - 1000) are once or multiple times in a deck of cards and each usage removes the card from the deck, once all cards are used up the deck is reused.
We use a static deck for this which has been manually curated for "unexpected" streaks.
This is 100% deterministic and "fair" in the sense that the listed chance is precisely what you get over exactly 1000 checks and due to the curation is pretty close to the listed chance with only 30ish - 100 checks.

Variant 3: Pseudo random distribution, mostly known for its use in dota 2:
It uses the pseudo rng from variant 1 but feeds it a lower than listed chance to check against and keeps track of its failure streak and each failure increases the chance it's checking against, on success it resets the failure streak counter and thereby reverts to the much reduced chance.
This is still fairly random while trying to curb good and bad streaks but has rather weird properties with chances higher than 50%.

Variant 1, the psuedo rng, is the easiest to use that yield the "best" results if you actually want rng but is, due to the unhindered possibility of streaks, quite likely to cause threads / bug reports.

Variant 2 is objectively the best thing to use when it's only for a single roll, it's completely fair and depending on the table used produces precisely the result you want. However, in the defensive rolls with multiple consecutive checks, (evade > parry > block > miss), you are basically loading up the previous checks which is the reason we moved away from it for everything combat related except miss and resist.

Variant 3 is quite nice for all positive effects and still used for those: crit, crafting quality, procs, offhand hit chance. However once you use it for something with a chance of more than about 50% it just becomes slightly weird and if you have consecutive checks with one preventing the following, like in the case of defensive rolls, the effect is absolutely not what you want.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:09 PM by cuuchulain79
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:55 PM
Bad streaks is what is more memorable and hence always why people will complain about rng.

We basically have 3 different variants for checking chances in place currently:

Variant 1: Normal / Pseudo rng with the number at face value:
Every use / comparison is entirely independent of any previous checks and just gets a random number and sees if it's less than or equal to the chance. This can have high good and high bad streaks. The usage was tested when used in a single threaded multiple consumer environment and also multi threaded multiple consumer and both cases result in the expected rng distribution without huge anomalies between the consumer.
This is as random as it gets.

Variant 2: Random number tables, also known as card deck:
Probably best to explain as a deck of cards: All possible numbers (in our case 1 - 1000) are once or multiple times in a deck of cards and each usage removes the card from the deck, once all cards are used up the deck is reused.
We use a static deck for this which has been manually curated for "unexpected" streaks.
This is 100% deterministic and "fair" in the sense that the listed chance is precisely what you get over exactly 1000 checks and due to the curation is pretty close to the listed chance with only 30ish - 100 checks.

Variant 3: Pseudo random distribution, mostly known for its use in dota 2:
It uses the pseudo rng from variant 1 but feeds it a lower than listed chance to check against and keeps track of its failure streak and each failure increases the chance it's checking against, on success it resets the failure streak counter and thereby reverts to the much reduced chance.
This is still fairly random while trying to curb good and bad streaks but has rather weird properties with chances higher than 50%.

Variant 1, the psuedo rng, is the easiest to use that yield the "best" results if you actually want rng but is, due to the unhindered possibility of streaks, quite likely to cause threads / bug reports.

Variant 2 is objectively the best thing to use when it's only for a single roll, it's completely fair and depending on the table used produces precisely the result you want. However, in the defensive rolls with multiple consecutive checks, (evade > parry > block > miss), you are basically loading up the previous checks which is the reason we moved away from it for everything combat related except miss and resist.

Variant 3 is quite nice for all positive effects and still used for those: crit, crafting quality, procs, offhand hit chance. However once you use it for something with a chance of more than about 50% it just becomes slightly weird and if you have consecutive checks with one preventing the following, like in the case of defensive rolls, the effect is absolutely not what you want.

So do the different variants always get used for the same things? Pretty sure all my melee chars I've tried fumble more getting to level 20 than my solo warden did getting to RR8 (on live).
Tue 12 Mar 2019 4:39 PM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:26 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:57 PM
Giving SB's access to Bludgeon would atleast remove the direct 20% difference and then there is "only" a 5% disparity rather than the 15%-25% it is now.

The only problem with this s if they fix LA to where SB no longer needs bludgeon to compete then SB gunna complain that they removed it... No bandaids fix the real issues then if they still need bludgeon then we can address it.

I'm sorry but that is not a very good reason not to change stuff. Scenario-thinking (what if.. what if.. what if) generally just leads to slow decision-making and not better decision-making.

The fact people argue if LA is either better or worse generally means it is pretty much equal. 5% more or less isn't the issue: The real disparity is being caused by armour resist-tables and not LA. On live they did a lot to alleviate the armour-resist tables: They changed weak to a damage type to only -5%, they added legendaries weapons and Bludgeon to SB. Pre-165 a lot was overshadowed by LA-overpoweredness. On Phoenix we got rid of that (good) but we're not yet at the level where SB's got their "compensation" (e.g. Bludgeon). Add to that the INF/NS arguably got the best deals with the custom style-revamps on Phoenix (which where done in late beta and not documented properly, beside "Style revamp in patch-notes" rather than saying "Beartooth is now off-evade for Infils and gives 6 sec stun" or "Horizontal Blade now is off-evade for NS and gives 4 sec stun) and you end up with something which isn't balanced at all.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:16 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:33 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 3:10 AM
, and yet you are staunchly against me having something my class did have @ this very patch level. whether it's a bandaid or not we had it and it would help our situation a whole lot to have again.

Alright, no SB didn't get Blunt ability until patch 1.82... So far cry from having it at 1.65.. They just nerfed NS spell damage quite a bit based on patch level so I don't see them changing this. And I'd like to see the core mechanic of LA fixed damage-wise then them adding blunt ability then fixing LA at some point making SB broken later...

true, but ns didnt get blade evade stun till 1.89 and yet they have it here. so clearly this is not a 1.65 level server.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:20 PM by Riac
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 4:39 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 1:26 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 12:57 PM
Giving SB's access to Bludgeon would atleast remove the direct 20% difference and then there is "only" a 5% disparity rather than the 15%-25% it is now.

The only problem with this s if they fix LA to where SB no longer needs bludgeon to compete then SB gunna complain that they removed it... No bandaids fix the real issues then if they still need bludgeon then we can address it.

I'm sorry but that is not a very good reason not to change stuff. Scenario-thinking (what if.. what if.. what if) generally just leads to slow decision-making and not better decision-making.

The fact people argue if LA is either better or worse generally means it is pretty much equal. 5% more or less isn't the issue: The real disparity is being caused by armour resist-tables and not LA. On live they did a lot to alleviate the armour-resist tables: They changed weak to a damage type to only -5%, they added legendaries weapons and Bludgeon to SB. Pre-165 a lot was overshadowed by LA-overpoweredness. On Phoenix we got rid of that (good) but we're not yet at the level where SB's got their "compensation" (e.g. Bludgeon). Add to that the INF/NS arguably got the best deals with the custom style-revamps on Phoenix (which where done in late beta and not documented properly, beside "Style revamp in patch-notes" rather than saying "Beartooth is now off-evade for Infils and gives 6 sec stun" or "Horizontal Blade now is off-evade for NS and gives 4 sec stun) and you end up with something which isn't balanced at all.

i agree with most of this, except the ppl arguing that left axe is 5% better are most likely not even playing a stealther and just looking at old documents from 2003, which this server may be based off of but does not mean it is how it is actually working in the field. they are just looking at paper and assuming its all good and having no idea what that actual execution is like.

and the prev point about a sb needing rr4 to compete. mine is rr5 and still getting fucked up by rr4 NS and even some blade rangers from time to time (some of those dudes are like beating on a brick wall lol)
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by Riac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:55 PM
Bad streaks is what is more memorable and hence always why people will complain about rng.



Occasions like the one in the video above i'd say are not that uncommon imo but i'm not much of a video maker nor do i really know how to edit that stuff, but when you see clips like that would you say this is working as intended and just crazy bad luck or maybe that should be looked into?

also i'd really appreciate you giving your opinion on this matter. do you believe the match up between sbs and ns is fair? (assuming same procs, rr, and all that jazz)
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:53 PM by dante`afk
I mean, that's why I'm saying this is happening very frequently. Talking to other SBs they reported the same.

I wouldn't mention it if it was like once in a week or so, but out of 20 fights I have per day I see similar behaviors at least 5-8 times. Not to that extreme extent, but still. Evade/Miss RNG or not, on Live I used to hit the after evade stun very frequently, like 90%, no issues at all. Here it's like 10%. It's one thing to have luck to hit the evade style, then hitting the stun is next to impossible. Ending up only to be able to do garotte + achiless
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM by gruenesschaf
Personal opinion:

The matchup between the 3 assassins is obviously not fair. You basically have the SB higher hp vs ns magic vs inf higher spec points, then you have the mechanic difference / slight LA advantage which is pretty much entirely negated by damage shield. Then it's the possible damage types vs armor types where hib has the advantage as they can get + against sb/hunter and neutral against alb while sb is forced to have a malus against ns and neutral against alb with alb having the choice of malus against hib and bonus against mid or malus against mid and neutral against hib and finally no 1st reactionary stun for the sb.

As for the suggested blunt ability, I'm not really sure if basically adding banespike to SB is the right choice. Legendary weapons would be a great solution for this, however not class restricting them would affect normal group play.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:23 PM by Bradekes
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
As for the suggested blunt ability, I'm not really sure if basically adding banespike to SB is the right choice. Legendary weapons would be a great solution for this, however not class restricting them would affect normal group play.

I think legendary weapons were always fair. It allows melee to also run in cold/heat/body debuff teams pretty well... And also adds non-restrictive damage types for solo classes. Not sure if self resist debuffing on them should be added though
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:38 PM by lourock
Here we go down the slippery slope again. It’s just never enough. Mid always has 100s more thanthe other realms no matter the time zone as it is. But let’s give them one more OP class to run around on when they get tired of their skalds :p.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:58 PM by Padatoo
lourock wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:38 PM
Here we go down the slippery slope again. It’s just never enough. Mid always has 100s more thanthe other realms no matter the time zone as it is. But let’s give them one more OP class to run around on when they get tired of their skalds :p.

Do you have any clue ,what this thread is about?
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:43 PM by jelzinga_EU
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Personal opinion:

As for the suggested blunt ability, I'm not really sure if basically adding banespike to SB is the right choice. Legendary weapons would be a great solution for this, however not class restricting them would affect normal group play.

Bludgeon isn't "basically banespike" tho, it's just giving SB the option to temporary change their damage-type to Crush (rather than Slash). That would essentially put us up to BladesNS / SlashINF when fighting them. Yes that would increase our damage to those guys by roughly +20% but it is what they do to us (too) ...
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:45 PM by Horus
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Personal opinion:

The matchup between the 3 assassins is obviously not fair. You basically have the SB higher hp vs ns magic vs inf higher spec points, then you have the mechanic difference / slight LA advantage which is pretty much entirely negated by damage shield. Then it's the possible damage types vs armor types where hib has the advantage as they can get + against sb/hunter and neutral against alb while sb is forced to have a malus against ns and neutral against alb with alb having the choice of malus against hib and bonus against mid or malus against mid and neutral against hib and finally no 1st reactionary stun for the sb.

As for the suggested blunt ability, I'm not really sure if basically adding banespike to SB is the right choice. Legendary weapons would be a great solution for this, however not class restricting them would affect normal group play.

Seems kinda iffy to start taking armor resists vs dmg types into consideration. There are many targets and not all fights are A vs. A. As a Ranger I think slash would be a better option but since it is all str and I need dex for bow I am more or less forced to go thrust. Are you going to consider changing that too under the auspices of "fair" (I hate that subjective word) ?

Looking at the top 250 RPs there are 6 SBs, 6 infilt, 4 NSs, I know statistics mean nothing but it shows at least some SBs have figured out how to be successful with the current setup...more so than NSs.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:58 PM by Riac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Personal opinion:

The matchup between the 3 assassins is obviously not fair. You basically have the SB higher hp vs ns magic vs inf higher spec points, then you have the mechanic difference / slight LA advantage which is pretty much entirely negated by damage shield. Then it's the possible damage types vs armor types where hib has the advantage as they can get + against sb/hunter and neutral against alb while sb is forced to have a malus against ns and neutral against alb with alb having the choice of malus against hib and bonus against mid or malus against mid and neutral against hib and finally no 1st reactionary stun for the sb.

As for the suggested blunt ability, I'm not really sure if basically adding banespike to SB is the right choice. Legendary weapons would be a great solution for this, however not class restricting them would affect normal group play.

i really appreciate you being honest. however, the sb bonus hp is not high enough to be of any relevance imo, i feel like you would almost have to double it before we even begin to consider it.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:59 PM by dante`afk
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
Looking at the top 250 RPs there are 6 SBs, 6 infilt, 4 NSs, I know statistics mean nothing but it shows at least some SBs have figured out how to be successful with the current setup...more so than NSs.

consider their /played time - it's most likely out of proportion to the ones who have less rps.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:01 PM by Riac
lourock wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:38 PM
Here we go down the slippery slope again. It’s just never enough. Mid always has 100s more thanthe other realms no matter the time zone as it is. But let’s give them one more OP class to run around on when they get tired of their skalds :p.


your point is terrible, just because a realm has a higher population has nothing to do what so ever between the 1v1 encounters of stealthers. it just provides more SBs for the NS to farm lol. surengul (however you spell that elf NSs name) will show that, ive seen him kill 2 sbs at the same time lol (me being one of them )
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:03 PM by Riac
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:59 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
Looking at the top 250 RPs there are 6 SBs, 6 infilt, 4 NSs, I know statistics mean nothing but it shows at least some SBs have figured out how to be successful with the current setup...more so than NSs.

consider their /played time - it's most likely out of proportion to the ones who have less rps.

this is exactly correct. you are not considering /played nor the amount of rps gained from tasks, they may also be killing visibles or camping leveling slots. this is a discussion of 1v1 fights among the stealthers.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:05 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:01 PM
your point is terrible, just because a realm has a higher population has nothing to do what so ever between the 1v1 encounters of stealthers. it just provides more SBs for the NS to farm lol. surengul (however you spell that elf NSs name) will show that, ive seen him kill 2 sbs at the same time lol (me being one of them )
By that logic NS should be way ahead in RR if SB are free rps
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:06 PM by Riac
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Seems kinda iffy to start taking armor resists vs dmg types into consideration. There are many targets and not all fights are A vs. A. As a Ranger I think slash would be a better option but since it is all str and I need dex for bow I am more or less forced to go thrust. Are you going to consider changing that too under the auspices of "fair" (I hate that subjective word) ?



you must have a terrible temp if you are unable to cap str and dex, especially since you do not have to consider raising caps on these stats.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:07 PM by dante`afk
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Personal opinion:

The matchup between the 3 assassins is obviously not fair. You basically have the SB higher hp vs ns magic vs inf higher spec points, then you have the mechanic difference / slight LA advantage which is pretty much entirely negated by damage shield. Then it's the possible damage types vs armor types where hib has the advantage as they can get + against sb/hunter and neutral against alb while sb is forced to have a malus against ns and neutral against alb with alb having the choice of malus against hib and bonus against mid or malus against mid and neutral against hib and finally no 1st reactionary stun for the sb.

As for the suggested blunt ability, I'm not really sure if basically adding banespike to SB is the right choice. Legendary weapons would be a great solution for this, however not class restricting them would affect normal group play.

Well it is not really banespike. And to be fair, nothing is fair, because if you look at it like this, then obviously anyone who uses slash against mid leather is technically having banespike too?

This here brings it pretty much to the point:

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 4:39 PM
The fact people argue if LA is either better or worse generally means it is pretty much equal. 5% more or less isn't the issue: The real disparity is being caused by armour resist-tables and not LA. On live they did a lot to alleviate the armour-resist tables: They changed weak to a damage type to only -5%, they added legendaries weapons and Bludgeon to SB. Pre-165 a lot was overshadowed by LA-overpoweredness. On Phoenix we got rid of that (good) but we're not yet at the level where SB's got their "compensation" (e.g. Bludgeon). Add to that the INF/NS arguably got the best deals with the custom style-revamps on Phoenix (which where done in late beta and not documented properly, beside "Style revamp in patch-notes" rather than saying "Beartooth is now off-evade for Infils and gives 6 sec stun" or "Horizontal Blade now is off-evade for NS and gives 4 sec stun) and you end up with something which isn't balanced at all.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:08 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:05 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:01 PM
your point is terrible, just because a realm has a higher population has nothing to do what so ever between the 1v1 encounters of stealthers. it just provides more SBs for the NS to farm lol. surengul (however you spell that elf NSs name) will show that, ive seen him kill 2 sbs at the same time lol (me being one of them )
By that logic NS should be way ahead in RR if SB are free rps

once again you are not considering /played, task rps, or the sort of prey they are choosing to hunt.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:08 PM by gruenesschaf
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
Bludgeon isn't "basically banespike" tho, it's just giving SB the option to temporary change their damage-type to Crush (rather than Slash). That would essentially put us up to BladesNS / SlashINF when fighting them. Yes that would increase our damage to those guys by roughly +20% but it is what they do to us (too) ...
Banespike would be a temporary 15% damage boost that even affects damage cap, bludgeon would be a 20% resist change against hib leather / reinforced and 10% against alb leather, close enough to be pretty much banespike.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:08 PM
once again you are not considering /played, task rps, or the sort of prey they are choosing to hunt.

Why do I have to consider it? You're assuming it's a real factor.. You're not considering your skill when playing a SB but I don't mention that...
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM by Riac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:08 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
Bludgeon isn't "basically banespike" tho, it's just giving SB the option to temporary change their damage-type to Crush (rather than Slash). That would essentially put us up to BladesNS / SlashINF when fighting them. Yes that would increase our damage to those guys by roughly +20% but it is what they do to us (too) ...
Banespike would be a temporary 15% damage boost that even affects damage cap, bludgeon would be a 20% resist change against hib leather / reinforced and 10% against alb leather, close enough to be pretty much banespike.

so ns just gets to have a full time "bane spike" vs mid leather?
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM by sabyrtuth
Nightshade magic has been nerfed twice recently, I'll take your hp and 2h perf or extra spec points and 9 sec stun. The armor table is the only real advantage atm, and with such low strength races we trade off the weapskill for blades. Pumping aug strength still leaves us hurting in that department, especially after debuff and disease. I see quite a few good shadowblades out that seem to be doing fine.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:08 PM
once again you are not considering /played, task rps, or the sort of prey they are choosing to hunt.

Why do I have to consider it? You're assuming it's a real factor.. You're not considering your skill when playing a SB but I don't mention that...

bradekes this just fucken lmao (worse than your last terrible points tbh). if i sat and got task rps and kiled greens 24/7, all the way up to rr10 does that make me the most skillfull sb on the server? does that mean my char is op because i have higher rps than NS, even if i purposely dodge them because i know i will lose?
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:13 PM by dante`afk
sabyrtuth wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
Nightshade magic has been nerfed twice recently, I'll take your hp and 2h perf or extra spec points and 9 sec stun. The armor table is the only real advantage atm, and with such low strength races we trade off the weapskill for blades. Pumping aug strength still leaves us hurting in that department, especially after debuff and disease. I see quite a few good shadowblades out that seem to be doing fine.



Lmao, I'm happy to trade the silly 100hp extra 2h and LA mechanics ANY TIME for after evade stun and hib/alb leather.

comon
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:16 PM by Riac
sabyrtuth wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
Nightshade magic has been nerfed twice recently, I'll take your hp and 2h perf or extra spec points and 9 sec stun. The armor table is the only real advantage atm, and with such low strength races we trade off the weapskill for blades. Pumping aug strength still leaves us hurting in that department, especially after debuff and disease. I see quite a few good shadowblades out that seem to be doing fine.

id trade my 2h perf for 10g tbh, that shit is garbage, the 100 extra hp is a joke vs s1 getting +20% dmg. id gladly give you all of my bonuses just to have the resist tables reversed. also that super low ws doesnt seem to be hurting you too much but feel free to post a video of a ns missing both hands back to back several times in a row, we already have one from a sb pov in here and a lot of sbs chiming in that this happens to them often.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:16 PM by gruenesschaf
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
so ns just gets to have a full time "bane spike" vs mid leather?

NS has to give up thrust damage entirely for that and while slash is an advantage in stealther fights for hib, it's not just some cooldown that increases your damage at will. The comparison with banespike is fitting as it's literally a temporary buff with a cooldown with a mostly comparable effect (when used against the correct target).
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:17 PM by Afuldan
sabyrtuth wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
Nightshade magic has been nerfed twice recently, I'll take your hp and 2h perf or extra spec points and 9 sec stun. The armor table is the only real advantage atm, and with such low strength races we trade off the weapskill for blades. Pumping aug strength still leaves us hurting in that department, especially after debuff and disease. I see quite a few good shadowblades out that seem to be doing fine.

SB get the same spec points as NS, Infi gets an extra 0.3 per level at 2.5 compared to 2.2, please stop perpetuating that NS gets least spec points out of all sins, SB and NS have the same amount.

Give all 3 sins access to Bludgeon than if it creates an inbalance. Kinda hard to see what imbalance there is when SB are so weak to Slash.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:18 PM by Riac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:16 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
so ns just gets to have a full time "bane spike" vs mid leather?

NS has to give up thrust damage entirely for that and while slash is an advantage in stealther fights for hib, it's not just some cooldown that increases your damage at will. The comparison with banespike is fitting as it's literally a temporary buff with a cooldown with a mostly comparable effect (when used against the correct target).

they have to give up thrust damage doesnt seem like that big of a sacrifice, i wish i had a choice to give up my slash damage. instead im just pigeonholed into a sub optimal position.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:18 PM by Bradekes
[
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:12 PM
bradekes this just fucken lmao (worse than your last terrible points tbh). if i sat and got task rps and kiled greens 24/7, all the way up to rr10 does that make me the most skillfull sb on the server? does that mean my char is op because i have higher rps than NS, even if i purposely dodge them because i know i will lose?

My points aren't terrible.. You juat agree with anyone that says SB need help doesn't matter their point or if it makes sense.. I just think there needs to be a fair balanced decision.. I am not opposed to giving sb a off evade stun or something like that but why should they get something the other two realms don't jyst because they had it in a future patch level? It doesn't make sense at this patch level.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:21 PM by jelzinga_EU
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
Seems kinda iffy to start taking armor resists vs dmg types into consideration. There are many targets and not all fights are A vs. A. As a Ranger I think slash would be a better option but since it is all str and I need dex for bow I am more or less forced to go thrust. Are you going to consider changing that too under the auspices of "fair" (I hate that subjective word) ?

Shadowblade : Primary = DEX; Secondary = QUI; Tertiary = STR
Ranger: Primary = DEX; Secondary = QUI; Tertiary = STR

As you can see Shadowblades who have no use for DEX have it (too) as primary stat and are "forced" into Slash as we have no other option available. Think that is "fair" then ? Is it fair both NS and INF have access to 2 insta off-evade stuns (Beartooth & Dragonfang, Diamondback & Horizontal Blade) where SB do not have that all ?

NS magic has been nerfed compared to the initial revisions during live yet it still does A LOT more damage than it did on live in this era.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:22 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:18 PM
[
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:12 PM
bradekes this just fucken lmao (worse than your last terrible points tbh). if i sat and got task rps and kiled greens 24/7, all the way up to rr10 does that make me the most skillfull sb on the server? does that mean my char is op because i have higher rps than NS, even if i purposely dodge them because i know i will lose?

My points aren't terrible.. You juat agree with anyone that says SB need help doesn't matter their point or if it makes sense.. I just think there needs to be a fair balanced decision.. I am not opposed to giving sb a off evade stun or something like that but why should they get something the other two realms don't jyst because they had it in a future patch level? It doesn't make sense at this patch level.

they are terrible, you are using the metric that representation on the rp board = skill/strength but not considering how they got these rps or how long it took them to get them.

just to illistrate this even further (assuming all things equal). if a ns logged on for 2 hours and stomped the shit out of sbs at the mg and got 20k. then an sb logged in played for 7 hours trying to fights NS/blade rangers and slash infs at the mg and having a much harder time losing fights and such but still finishing at 20k. then by your logic their experience was the same and they guys are equal in terms of power lvl.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:29 PM by jelzinga_EU
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:16 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
so ns just gets to have a full time "bane spike" vs mid leather?

NS has to give up thrust damage entirely for that and while slash is an advantage in stealther fights for hib, it's not just some cooldown that increases your damage at will. The comparison with banespike is fitting as it's literally a temporary buff with a cooldown with a mostly comparable effect (when used against the correct target).

I understand your point (tho the Banespike would only be useful against Alb leather/plate and Hib leather/studded and not like on everything as BS did) - how about giving us the ability to spec Hammer or a RA which turns our damage into Crush-damage? Obviously with Hammer-spec should come an insta off-evade stun too at <30 spec since our counterparts have those as well (NS even in both Pierce and Blades and a side-stun in CD)

I think it is simply not fair to leave SB in this state ; just because the mentioned alternatives might be too strong (to your personal opinion) I think it would be fair to discuss options. Some slash-resist piercing might be an option too (e.g. passive +10% Slashresist-piercing to targets wearing up till studded/RF) . I can think of a lot of options, but it would be better if you would say what you would deem reasonable.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:31 PM by Expfighter
armath wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 1:36 PM
At the current game patch and phoenix meta, I would like to point out some disadvantages to the Shadowblade, compared to the other assassins, especially with the custom changes made to the Nightshade and Infiltrator.

First a look at the different realms leather armor resist tables, clearly showing a disadvantage to both the shadowblade, and also a clear advantage to especially the nightshade.

Midgard Leather | Thrust Resistant | Crush Neutral | Slash Vulnerable
Hibernia Leather | Thrust Neutral |Crush Vulnerable | Slash Resistant
Albion Leather | Thrust Resistant | Crush Vulnerable | Slash Neutral

With the nightshade and infiltrator able to choose between Thrust or Slash damage lines, the Shadowblade is locked to Slash damage type, which obviously is a disadvantage already.

When looking at the races of the realm, it is clear that the norseman is a strong race for str required spec lines, such as slash. But with 70str/70con/50dex/50qui the briton infiltrator is not far behind with 60str/60con/60dex/60qui, making it easier for them to achieve cap swing speeds. The kobold, lurikeen, elf and saracen specifily share same primary in dex/qui, with the kobold being at the biggest disadvatange resistwise. F.x an Elf Nightshade would do more damage with a 1-handed slash PA on a Kobold Shadowblade, then visa versa with a 2-handed slash PA, due to race resist and armor resists.

The three assassins have different class specific benefits:
- Shadowblade has 2-handed weaponry
- Nightshade has magic line
- Infiltrator has more spec points ( 3706 vs. 3253 )

But as stated above, in the assassin meta, the 2-handed weaponry is not really a factor here, due to the armor resists. The output of the magic line or the higher WS of the nightshade or infiltrator, is a much bigger advantage.

The real reason the shadowblade is at a disadvantage here, is however the fact that Phoenix has added blade line evade stun to the Nightshade and Infiltrator, even though both already have access to direct evade stun in the thrust damage spec lines. In a simple control comparison, this makes an nearly even playingfield, giving the nightshade a major advantage with the 4s side stun, and all dex/qui primary races a higher chance to defend vs. the evade chain., i.e the lurikeen being a very strong race in the evade stun battle.

With all this in mind, it is obvious that the Shadowblade is indeed at a disadvantage. On Live servers, the assassin meta was not revamped for a very long time, and a lot earlier than the blade stun chain was added to the nightshade, the ability "Blunt" was given to the Shadowblade, allowing them to change their damage type to Crush for a period of time - putting them at atleast a damage type advantage against both infiltrator and nightshade. The lurikeen has 5% base crush and the briton 2% base crush, so the impact wouldnt be huge for the shadowblade in most cases.

I would suggest to add this ability to the Shadowblade to make the playingfield more even, since both NS and Infil have the evade stun chains. In every department except for base str/con on a norseman, the Lurikeen nightshade is at an advantage at this point in time.

Per patch 1.82: (02.16.06)
- Upon reaching level 10, Shadowblades will be granted the ability to turn their weapons to the side and inflict blunt damage for 30 seconds. (Re-usable every 5 minutes). This ability is found in the abilities list in the spells window.

hearing a sb /cry is hilarious, sb's are on the very top of the assassin tree!
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:37 PM by Riac
hearing a sb /cry is hilarious, sb's are ont he very top of the assassin tree!
[/quote]

is this bradekes alt account? another clueless person using representation as metric to determine class strength without considering how these rps were obtained.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:51 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:22 PM
they are terrible, you are using the metric that representation on the rp board = skill/strength but not considering how they got these rps or how long it took them to get them.
My bad for trying to use real data in multiple threads of mine... I forgot this game's balance was based on feelings and emotions...
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:52 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:51 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:22 PM
they are terrible, you are using the metric that representation on the rp board = skill/strength but not considering how they got these rps or how long it took them to get them.
My bad for trying to use real data in multiple threads of mine... I forgot this game's balance was based on feelings and emotions...

you must be trolling lol.
considering how they got the rps and how long it took is feelings and emotions??????? i'd like to hear you delve down a bit deeper on the tbh.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM by Expfighter
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:37 PM
hearing a sb /cry is hilarious, sb's are ont he very top of the assassin tree!

is this bradekes alt account? another clueless person using representation as metric to determine class strength without considering how these rps were obtained.
[/quote]

have no clue who that is, and i wasn't talking about rp tree! talking about skill tree! and if you think differently then YOU are clueless!

i have actually played all 3 assassin classes here on phoenix during beta, SB #1
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:52 PM
you must be trolling lol.

No... There has been 0 evidence pointed towards SB needing this buff.. No testing no numbers just complaints and a few examples of evading issues, that may be RNG... Present some solid info and I'll back you up.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM by Riac
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:37 PM
hearing a sb /cry is hilarious, sb's are ont he very top of the assassin tree!

is this bradekes alt account? another clueless person using representation as metric to determine class strength without considering how these rps were obtained.

have no clue who that is, and i wasn't talking about rp tree! talking about skill tree! and if you think differently then YOU are clueless!
[/quote]

well please elaborate on these strengths in the skill tree.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:58 PM by Padatoo
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/solokills?time-frame=last-week&filter=stealther


That one is interesting - 250 top stealthers sorted by Solo Kills that were done last week:

Out of top 200:
17 minstrels
52 infils , 50 shadowblades , 46 nightshades
18 scouts , 13 rangers , 5 hunters.


Out of top 100:
7 minstrels
28 infils , 26 shadowblades , 21 nightshades
8 rangers , 8 scouts , 1 hunter.


1 freaking Hunter....1.... lol.

I think all the persuation efforts of people in this thread should be focused on buffing hunters
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:00 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:52 PM
you must be trolling lol.

No... There has been 0 evidence pointed towards SB needing this buff.. No testing no numbers just complaints and a few examples of evading issues, that may be RNG... Present some solid info and I'll back you up.

bradekes even the GM has said he thinks the "stealth war" is unfair, your standard of proof is too high and considering you don't even play a stealther you have no dog in the fight nor do you even fully understand the reality of the situation. not sure how i'm going to prove that a problem exists when you don't even know how it's playing out to begin with.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:01 PM by Riac
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:58 PM
https://herald.playphoenix.online/characters/solokills?time-frame=last-week&filter=stealther


That one is interesting - 250 top stealthers sorted by Solo Kills that were done last week:

Out of top 200:
17 minstrels
52 infils , 50 shadowblades , 46 nightshades
18 scouts , 13 rangers , 5 hunters.


Out of top 100:
7 minstrels
28 infils , 26 shadowblades , 21 nightshades
8 rangers , 8 scouts , 1 hunter.


1 freaking Hunter....1.... lol.

I think all the persuation efforts of people in this thread should be focused on buffing hunters

hunters can make their own thread. also some of those solo kills could be greens and blues so thats not really saying much imo.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:05 PM by Afuldan
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:29 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:16 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:10 PM
so ns just gets to have a full time "bane spike" vs mid leather?

NS has to give up thrust damage entirely for that and while slash is an advantage in stealther fights for hib, it's not just some cooldown that increases your damage at will. The comparison with banespike is fitting as it's literally a temporary buff with a cooldown with a mostly comparable effect (when used against the correct target).

I understand your point (tho the Banespike would only be useful against Alb leather/plate and Hib leather/studded and not like on everything as BS did) - how about giving us the ability to spec Hammer or a RA which turns our damage into Crush-damage? Obviously with Hammer-spec should come an insta off-evade stun too at <30 spec since our counterparts have those as well (NS even in both Pierce and Blades and a side-stun in CD)

I think it is simply not fair to leave SB in this state ; just because the mentioned alternatives might be too strong (to your personal opinion) I think it would be fair to discuss options. Some slash-resist piercing might be an option too (e.g. passive +10% Slashresist-piercing to targets wearing up till studded/RF) . I can think of a lot of options, but it would be better if you would say what you would deem reasonable.

Hell I’m pretty sure SB would even take Spear just for the rear stun and a damage type other than slash.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:06 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:00 PM
bradekes even the GM has said he thinks the "stealth war" is unfair, your standard of proof is too high and considering you don't even play a stealther you have no dog in the fight nor do you even fully understand the reality of the situation. not sure how i'm going to prove that a problem exists when you don't even know how it's playing out to begin with.
I had a RR5 SB on mordred I know the pain of going up the RR tree with a SB.. I have not made one here true... Just because stealth war may not be completely balanced he did give a good suggestion that benefits all stealther not just giving SB the Iwin button
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:12 PM by Padatoo
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:05 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:29 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:16 PM
NS has to give up thrust damage entirely for that and while slash is an advantage in stealther fights for hib, it's not just some cooldown that increases your damage at will. The comparison with banespike is fitting as it's literally a temporary buff with a cooldown with a mostly comparable effect (when used against the correct target).

I understand your point (tho the Banespike would only be useful against Alb leather/plate and Hib leather/studded and not like on everything as BS did) - how about giving us the ability to spec Hammer or a RA which turns our damage into Crush-damage? Obviously with Hammer-spec should come an insta off-evade stun too at <30 spec since our counterparts have those as well (NS even in both Pierce and Blades and a side-stun in CD)

I think it is simply not fair to leave SB in this state ; just because the mentioned alternatives might be too strong (to your personal opinion) I think it would be fair to discuss options. Some slash-resist piercing might be an option too (e.g. passive +10% Slashresist-piercing to targets wearing up till studded/RF) . I can think of a lot of options, but it would be better if you would say what you would deem reasonable.

Hell I’m pretty sure SB would even take Spear just for the rear stun and a damage type other than slash.

nah.....thrust only better against scout (Topic asks to give crush dmg type for a reason) ,spear growth rates are bad and LA outperforms 2h .
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:09 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:06 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:00 PM
bradekes even the GM has said he thinks the "stealth war" is unfair, your standard of proof is too high and considering you don't even play a stealther you have no dog in the fight nor do you even fully understand the reality of the situation. not sure how i'm going to prove that a problem exists when you don't even know how it's playing out to begin with.
I had a RR5 SB on mordred I know the pain of going up the RR tree with a SB.. I have not made one here true... Just because stealth war may not be completely balanced he did give a good suggestion that benefits all stealther not just giving SB the Iwin button

It's hardly an Iwin button, we would get the same bonus to dmg vs them that they have vs us, its more of an even the playing field button; also that button comes with a 5 min cd and their dmg type does not.

and this isnt mordred.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:35 PM by Sepplord
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:37 PM
hearing a sb /cry is hilarious, sb's are ont he very top of the assassin tree!

is this bradekes alt account? another clueless person using representation as metric to determine class strength without considering how these rps were obtained.

have no clue who that is, and i wasn't talking about rp tree! talking about skill tree! and if you think differently then YOU are clueless!

i have actually played all 3 assassin classes here on phoenix during beta, SB #1

Just to make sure, you played all 3 assassins AFTER the patch that gave bladeshades and slashinfs tier1 stuns? And you played NS/Inf with slash-dmg and felt they were inferior to SBs?
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:53 PM by Riac
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:35 PM
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:37 PM
is this bradekes alt account? another clueless person using representation as metric to determine class strength without considering how these rps were obtained.

have no clue who that is, and i wasn't talking about rp tree! talking about skill tree! and if you think differently then YOU are clueless!

i have actually played all 3 assassin classes here on phoenix during beta, SB #1

Just to make sure, you played all 3 assassins AFTER the patch that gave bladeshades and slashinfs tier1 stuns? And you played NS/Inf with slash-dmg and felt they were inferior to SBs?

this dude is either a troll or straight up clueless, i asked him to elaborate on their "skill tree" and hes yet to reply lol.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:17 AM by Expfighter
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:53 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:35 PM
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:55 PM
have no clue who that is, and i wasn't talking about rp tree! talking about skill tree! and if you think differently then YOU are clueless!

i have actually played all 3 assassin classes here on phoenix during beta, SB #1

Just to make sure, you played all 3 assassins AFTER the patch that gave bladeshades and slashinfs tier1 stuns? And you played NS/Inf with slash-dmg and felt they were inferior to SBs?

this dude is either a troll or straight up clueless, i asked him to elaborate on their "skill tree" and hes yet to reply lol.

because i have been out rvring

2 handed, la? thats all that needs to be said
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:22 AM by Riac
Expfighter wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:17 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:53 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:35 PM
Just to make sure, you played all 3 assassins AFTER the patch that gave bladeshades and slashinfs tier1 stuns? And you played NS/Inf with slash-dmg and felt they were inferior to SBs?

this dude is either a troll or straight up clueless, i asked him to elaborate on their "skill tree" and hes yet to reply lol.

because i have been out rvring

2 handed, la? thats all that needs to be said

So you are beating NS with 2handers? is that what you are saying?
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:25 AM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:09 PM
It's hardly an Iwin button, we would get the same bonus to dmg vs them that they have vs us, its more of an even the playing field button; also that button comes with a 5 min cd and their dmg type does not.

and this isnt mordred.

Same damage bonus+30strength... And me playing my SB gave me insight as to how weak SB are at lower RR.. I had my other SB buddy we had to duo until RR4 before we could actually handle enemy assassin solo.. So you expect that to be different here?

Also you won't be satisfied after them adding bludgeon you will just find some other thing that is somehow holding you back...
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:29 AM by lourock
All I see is people whining for more crap that they had on live. Your class is OP against many different classes in this game. Can’t have your cake and eat it too unless you go play live again.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:31 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:25 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:09 PM
It's hardly an Iwin button, we would get the same bonus to dmg vs them that they have vs us, its more of an even the playing field button; also that button comes with a 5 min cd and their dmg type does not.

and this isnt mordred.

Same damage bonus+30strength... And me playing my SB gave me insight as to how weak SB are at lower RR.. I had my other SB buddy we had to duo until RR4 before we could actually handle enemy assassin solo.. So you expect that to be different here?

Also you won't be satisfied after them adding bludgeon you will just find some other thing that is somehow holding you back...

considering its on a 5 minute CD, id say there should be some sort of bonus associated with it, but i would gladly give up that 30 str (even though i know its not realistic). I'm rr 5l2 on my sb now and NS are still hitting me quite hard and will continue to hit me hard all the way to rr10. and tbh the part about the additional str is the first good point that you have made so far, so congratulations. however, sb is still weak af, comparatively, and something should be done.

also why do you care if i get bludgeon, you don't even play a stealther so it will have zero effect on you?

also this is just an assumption you are making about me
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:33 AM by Riac
lourock wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:29 AM
All I see is people whining for more crap that they had on live. Your class is OP against many different classes in this game. Can’t have your cake and eat it too unless you go play live again.

considering this thread is only talking about the disparity between the three assassin classes i dont see how anything you said here is relevant. but hey, thanks for your worthless input :p
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:42 AM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:31 AM
also why do you care if i get bludgeon, you don't even play a stealther so it will have zero effect on you?


You've brought nothing to this thread.. All you do is troll anyone who says anything other than "ohh yeah sb suck so bad buff plz" dismiss any feedback that may say otherwise.. The devs idea to add legendary weapons would fix your issue and add a even playing field unlike giving sb blunt which isn't exactly OP but give SB an edge to change dmg type at will
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:47 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:42 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:31 AM
also why do you care if i get bludgeon, you don't even play a stealther so it will have zero effect on you?


You've brought nothing to this thread.. All you do is troll anyone who says anything other than "ohh yeah sb suck so bad buff plz" dismiss any feedback that may say otherwise.. The devs idea to add legendary weapons would fix your issue and add a even playing field unlike giving sb blunt which isn't exactly OP but give SB an edge to change dmg type at will

hey, i like the idea of leggy weaps, i agree that'd fix a lot. and if anyone is dismissive it is you. claiming im arguing with feelings and shit when i make legitimate points. but yea, im dismissive of that last guy because he didnt have anything to say.

also to claim ive brought nothing to this thread seems pretty untrue also, ive gotten a pretty good amount of likes out of here... how many did you get?
Wed 13 Mar 2019 7:50 AM by inoeth
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
Personal opinion:

The matchup between the 3 assassins is obviously not fair. You basically have the SB higher hp vs ns magic vs inf higher spec points, then you have the mechanic difference / slight LA advantage which is pretty much entirely negated by damage shield. Then it's the possible damage types vs armor types where hib has the advantage as they can get + against sb/hunter and neutral against alb while sb is forced to have a malus against ns and neutral against alb with alb having the choice of malus against hib and bonus against mid or malus against mid and neutral against hib and finally no 1st reactionary stun for the sb.

As for the suggested blunt ability, I'm not really sure if basically adding banespike to SB is the right choice. Legendary weapons would be a great solution for this, however not class restricting them would affect normal group play.

one of your better ideas imo ;D maybe consider to implement them without the debuff.

this will open up more viable specs for many classes without making them over powered, for example hunter with sword spec^^
for grp play i dont think it will impact too much since grps have resist buffs, so legendary weapons could be much less effective than standard weapon types (if without debuff)
Wed 13 Mar 2019 10:07 AM by Sepplord
i always disliked legendary weapons although it is hard to explain why after so much time

Looking at it today (with my bias against legendaries though, i admit) i see following benefit & drawbacks:

Pro:
equalizes assassins VS assassins dmg-type vulnerabilities across the realms

Con:
-templates have to be redone (please don't make us retemp already, it's only been a few weeks...daoc is about being "done"
-unknown effects on groupplay (too big of a topic to elaborate in short, and i lack the knowledge anyways)
-reduces TTK in assassin VS assassin fights (+15% dmg instead of current maximum of +10%)
-influences archer vs assassin matchup (archer get +15%, assasins only +5%...might be wanted but i personally think archers should get BOW-buffs, not melee-buffs, especially not ranger)


Would it be unthinkable to simply change Mid-leather vulnerabilities/resists? Switch vulnerability to blunt, neutral to slash, resistant to thrust? (haven't thought this through much, only something that just popped in my mind, probably would be unfair/burden for people that are thrust now)
Wed 13 Mar 2019 10:31 AM by gruenesschaf
I mean if one really wanted to take out the armor resists for stealther vs stealther one could literally do just that by just entirely ignoring the inherent armor vuln / resist in only those matchups when in melee, that would by definition have exactly zero impact in all other matchups. The downside obviously is that it would be an unexpected mechanic.

Leg weapons for stealther only wouldn't necessarily have to mean exactly as they were but literally just new craftable weapons that are swords / slashing / piercing / whatever weapons but instead of the normal damage type they come in heat and cold variants but otherwise exactly like crafted weapons, meaning SCable and can add procs. The downside for leg weapons is that it would set the ttk for all stealther matchups to the lowest possible because everyone is hitting against vuln armor and it would also by class restricting them to stealther be a small stealther buff against visibles.

The impact on group play with non class restricted leg weapons would especially be there if you go all in with the leg weapons and also add the "newer" ones like body as then every caster debuff group could have their melees / peeler also run around with the debuffed damage type or even pure melee if the debuff proc remains on them and I at this time don't really see a need to make such a vis group affecting change as the entire point for this would be the stealther stuff.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 10:57 AM by inoeth
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 10:07 AM
i always disliked legendary weapons although it is hard to explain why after so much time

Looking at it today (with my bias against legendaries though, i admit) i see following benefit & drawbacks:

Pro:
equalizes assassins VS assassins dmg-type vulnerabilities across the realms

Con:
-templates have to be redone (please don't make us retemp already, it's only been a few weeks...daoc is about being "done"
-unknown effects on groupplay (too big of a topic to elaborate in short, and i lack the knowledge anyways)
-reduces TTK in assassin VS assassin fights (+15% dmg instead of current maximum of +10%)
-influences archer vs assassin matchup (archer get +15%, assasins only +5%...might be wanted but i personally think archers should get BOW-buffs, not melee-buffs, especially not ranger)

why redo templates? well that depends on who it will be implemented... i suggest them being normal crafted weapons with different dmg type and without proc.
as i said before i dont think it will have too much influence in grp play since you have to fight 50% resistance there so physical dmg would hit harder still.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:50 PM by jelzinga_EU
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 10:31 AM
I mean if one really wanted to take out the armor resists for stealther vs stealther one could literally do just that by just entirely ignoring the inherent armor vuln / resist in only those matchups when in melee, that would by definition have exactly zero impact in all other matchups. The downside obviously is that it would be an unexpected mechanic.

Leg weapons for stealther only wouldn't necessarily have to mean exactly as they were but literally just new craftable weapons that are swords / slashing / piercing / whatever weapons but instead of the normal damage type they come in heat and cold variants but otherwise exactly like crafted weapons, meaning SCable and can add procs. The downside for leg weapons is that it would set the ttk for all stealther matchups to the lowest possible because everyone is hitting against vuln armor and it would also by class restricting them to stealther be a small stealther buff against visibles.

The impact on group play with non class restricted leg weapons would especially be there if you go all in with the leg weapons and also add the "newer" ones like body as then every caster debuff group could have their melees / peeler also run around with the debuffed damage type or even pure melee if the debuff proc remains on them and I at this time don't really see a need to make such a vis group affecting change as the entire point for this would be the stealther stuff.

I totally agree that legendaries has a serious impact on (possible) group-balance and I wouldn't recommend making such a (sweeping) change just for the benefit of stealther-balance.

But I do feel something needs to be done to alleviate the imbalance, preferably in a way which doesn't impact the fights with visibles in any way. The choice of ignoring the inherent armour vuln/resist in melee-matchups with stealth vs stealth would be a good option. If that causes too much NS/INF-cries another option would be to open up all 3 leather-types as available to all 3 realms. Then any assassin can make a choice what leather he wants (Alb-leather, Mid-leather or Hib-leather).

Obviously that doesn't fix the off-evade discrepancies or the fact SB can't choose anything else but Slash-weaponry but at least it is a start to more fair fights.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 1:43 PM by Horus
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:03 PM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:59 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
Looking at the top 250 RPs there are 6 SBs, 6 infilt, 4 NSs, I know statistics mean nothing but it shows at least some SBs have figured out how to be successful with the current setup...more so than NSs.

consider their /played time - it's most likely out of proportion to the ones who have less rps.

this is exactly correct. you are not considering /played nor the amount of rps gained from tasks, they may also be killing visibles or camping leveling slots. this is a discussion of 1v1 fights among the stealthers.

You keep saying "this is about 1 on 1 among stealthers". Well that is not reality. What % of your encounters are 1 on 1 vs other stealthers? Using your logic, maybe we should buff SBs then put in a mechanic were assassins can only attack assassins. I'd be for that because right now my Ranger has zero chance against a SB as it is. Balancing or tweaking a class based 1 on 1 matchups against one or two other classes is just laughably illogical and I can't believe is even being discussed. So if you want to put some kind of bizarre custom change in that only fires when you are attacking another assassin, go for it I guess. But not taking every other possible target into account makes zero sense.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 2:53 PM by jelzinga_EU
Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
You keep saying "this is about 1 on 1 among stealthers". Well that is not reality. What % of your encounters are 1 on 1 vs other stealthers? Using your logic, maybe we should buff SBs then put in a mechanic were assassins can only attack assassins. I'd be for that because right now my Ranger has zero chance against a SB as it is. Balancing or tweaking a class based 1 on 1 matchups against one or two other classes is just laughably illogical and I can't believe is even being discussed. So if you want to put some kind of bizarre custom change in that only fires when you are attacking another assassin, go for it I guess. But not taking every other possible target into account makes zero sense.

By your logic no class will ever gets buff, because there will always be some other class who "has zero chance against that class as it is."

The fact your ranger has no chance against a SB as it is has nothing to do with SB's but everything with (your) ranger(s) vs any assassin. An infiltrator can do everything a SB can do to your ranger more effectively. A NS can do everything a SB can do to your ranger more effectively. The solution to your problem is not stopping any SB/Assassin-changes but Archery-changes.

With that being said, I do not like a "special assassin vs assassin"-case where some laws go out of the window. Yes, it would benefit me (as a SB) but I think the solution is clunky and confusing. Universal Leather seems a better choice.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:05 PM by inoeth
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 10:31 AM
I mean if one really wanted to take out the armor resists for stealther vs stealther one could literally do just that by just entirely ignoring the inherent armor vuln / resist in only those matchups when in melee, that would by definition have exactly zero impact in all other matchups. The downside obviously is that it would be an unexpected mechanic.

Leg weapons for stealther only wouldn't necessarily have to mean exactly as they were but literally just new craftable weapons that are swords / slashing / piercing / whatever weapons but instead of the normal damage type they come in heat and cold variants but otherwise exactly like crafted weapons, meaning SCable and can add procs. The downside for leg weapons is that it would set the ttk for all stealther matchups to the lowest possible because everyone is hitting against vuln armor and it would also by class restricting them to stealther be a small stealther buff against visibles.

The impact on group play with non class restricted leg weapons would especially be there if you go all in with the leg weapons and also add the "newer" ones like body as then every caster debuff group could have their melees / peeler also run around with the debuffed damage type or even pure melee if the debuff proc remains on them and I at this time don't really see a need to make such a vis group affecting change as the entire point for this would be the stealther stuff.

what about adding some code like:

if dmg done by melee weapon
then resist debuff does not work

not sure if that is possible but i think it could be a way to deny debuff melee trains
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:15 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:52 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:51 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:22 PM
they are terrible, you are using the metric that representation on the rp board = skill/strength but not considering how they got these rps or how long it took them to get them.
My bad for trying to use real data in multiple threads of mine... I forgot this game's balance was based on feelings and emotions...

you must be trolling lol.
considering how they got the rps and how long it took is feelings and emotions??????? i'd like to hear you delve down a bit deeper on the tbh.

You obviously can't use the RP/kills list to directly correlate a metric between class type and balance/effectiveness but don't sit their and completely dismiss the metric either. Obviously, regardless of how rps/kills are being obtained, you have to accept the fact that there are multiple shadow blades thriving in the top 20 herald for assassins. Regardless of how they're obtaining these stats (I'd request not reverting to an unsupported claim that they're playing 20hrs/day feasting on xp'ers and the task tick, lol).
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:20 PM by gruenesschaf
Universal leather wouldn't remove the core issue at all though, the problem basically is that one class only has a single possible damage type whereas the other have a choice of 2. And choice of which leather is definitely out of the question as it would allow armor swapping in combat to always have the opponent, even visibles, have the malus and thereby it would be a stealther buff.

If you take hib leather you make sbs sad and kind of force infis and ns to spec thrust / pierce, if you take alb leather you kind of force infis and ns to spec slash, if you take sb leather you force infis and ns to spec slash / blade and thereby reduce the ttk for all assassins to the lowest possible.
Going with alb or sb leather would theoretically give each assassin access to no malus and then you'd have to tell NS and Inf to just spec slash / blade, same for scout / ranger and hunter would also have to go sword.

Removing the armor resists in case of assassin / archer / minst vs assassin / archer / minst (and only in melee to leave the arrow damage type swapping untouched) would remove the damage type from the style line choice, obviously not entirely as it would still apply against other classes but at least against the hopefully primary non caster target.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:28 PM by Amp_Phetamine
I don't understand why this is a continuing issue. All 3 assassins have the capability of taking out nearly every class in the game (minus, to a degree of effort, heavy tanks and light tanks).

I swear since the inception of DAoC assassins have continually been the most vocally unhappy source in the game.

So there is slight imbalance among the three assassins - wow, shocked that a game not designed on mirrored classes has differences.

Get over it, template your toons, play the game and deal.

These threads should be closed down. Literally crying about trivialities among the strongest archtype in the game /facepalm.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:28 PM by Spewy
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 6:19 AM
stop talking about growth rates, they do nothing here.

if you consistently do less dmg over time because of the obvious benefits alb/hib leather has this just makes you sound silly. I keep hitting you for 120 with my woohoho big GR style, you keep hitting me for 160, guess who's gonna win in the end?

50 LA does not guarantee OH hit every time, chances are high yea, but it get equally often missed and evaded, if you looking for reliable repoisoning you do that on the MH, not OH. how does that help a SB hits with the offhand for 40dmg and let's say 120 mainhand, and then your enemy hits you for at least 160 mainhand or more with crit, dd etc and if his offhand hits too? over time, you lose. simple mathetmatics.



I am saying that since day1.

It's a pain and a shame DPS is way way below what it should be for SBs.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:30 PM by dante`afk
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:28 PM
garbage

what are you doing here? getting killed too often by assassins? should consider using DT more often, or figure out what else is wrong with your fingers.
if you don't have anything to contribute, it's better to not talk at all.
as someone said before, ns/infi got all the goodies post patch 1.82, while SB has not.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:32 PM by Amp_Phetamine
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:30 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:28 PM
garbage

what are you doing here? getting killed too often by assassins? should consider using DT more often, or figure out what else is wrong with your fingers.
if you don't have anything to contribute, it's better to not talk at all.
as someone said before, ns/infi got all the goodies post patch 1.82, while SB has not.

There is nothing of contribution in these 18 pages of posts other than my top tier character struggles against one of the other top tier characters lol. This entire thread is a joke.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:58 PM by jelzinga_EU
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:20 PM
Universal leather wouldn't remove the core issue at all though, the problem basically is that one class only has a single possible damage type whereas the other have a choice of 2. And choice of which leather is definitely out of the question as it would allow armor swapping in combat to always have the opponent, even visibles, have the malus and thereby it would be a stealther buff.

If you take hib leather you make sbs sad and kind of force infis and ns to spec thrust / pierce, if you take alb leather you kind of force infis and ns to spec slash, if you take sb leather you force infis and ns to spec slash / blade and thereby reduce the ttk for all assassins to the lowest possible.
Going with alb or sb leather would theoretically give each assassin access to no malus and then you'd have to tell NS and Inf to just spec slash / blade, same for scout / ranger and hunter would also have to go sword.

Removing the armor resists in case of assassin / archer / minst vs assassin / archer / minst (and only in melee to leave the arrow damage type swapping untouched) would remove the damage type from the style line choice, obviously not entirely as it would still apply against other classes but at least against the hopefully primary non caster target.

You're right, I didn't think about the effort of swapping in, people would do that. Furthermore, it is a problem for realm/class-specific drops so that's a no-go.

It is partially about the 2 combat-line damage-types AND the fact the others can spec for a type the SB is weak to. Adding thrust wouldn't help much (now the INF is resistant and the other neutral) and adding full-time Hammer is unfair too (both INF and NS are weak to it). However, the offhand would stay Slash, so... yeah..

It is merely a matter of picking the right solution, your solution of removing the armor resists for melee-damage might indeed be the best alternative approach...
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:11 PM by inoeth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:58 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:20 PM
Universal leather wouldn't remove the core issue at all though, the problem basically is that one class only has a single possible damage type whereas the other have a choice of 2. And choice of which leather is definitely out of the question as it would allow armor swapping in combat to always have the opponent, even visibles, have the malus and thereby it would be a stealther buff.

If you take hib leather you make sbs sad and kind of force infis and ns to spec thrust / pierce, if you take alb leather you kind of force infis and ns to spec slash, if you take sb leather you force infis and ns to spec slash / blade and thereby reduce the ttk for all assassins to the lowest possible.
Going with alb or sb leather would theoretically give each assassin access to no malus and then you'd have to tell NS and Inf to just spec slash / blade, same for scout / ranger and hunter would also have to go sword.

Removing the armor resists in case of assassin / archer / minst vs assassin / archer / minst (and only in melee to leave the arrow damage type swapping untouched) would remove the damage type from the style line choice, obviously not entirely as it would still apply against other classes but at least against the hopefully primary non caster target.

You're right, I didn't think about the effort of swapping in, people would do that. Furthermore, it is a problem for realm/class-specific drops so that's a no-go.

It is partially about the 2 combat-line damage-types AND the fact the others can spec for a type the SB is weak to. Adding thrust wouldn't help much (now the INF is resistant and the other neutral) and adding full-time Hammer is unfair too (both INF and NS are weak to it). However, the offhand would stay Slash, so... yeah..

It is merely a matter of picking the right solution, your solution of removing the armor resists for melee-damage might indeed be the best alternative approach...

i dont think changing dmg tables is a good solution it will also impact other classes... not sure if that is wanted.
imo keep the game as much free of custom changes as possible, custom in form of things that have never been there in any form on live servers.
imo getting legendary weapons can solve the problem, it is proven for years already...
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:14 PM by jelzinga_EU
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:11 PM
i dont think changing dmg tables is a good solution it will also impact other classes... not sure if that is wanted.
imo keep the game as much free of custom changes as possible, custom in form of things that have never been there in any form on live servers.
imo getting legendary weapons can solve the problem, it is proven for years already...

Maybe it was unclear, but the suggestion was to remove those armour dmg tables only for stealth vs stealth. Friar is excluded in these circumstances, it is obvious that a friar shouldn't be penalized in any situation, they got it tough enough
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:49 PM by Riac
i'd go for something that most would consider weak. i'd accept my sb leather being crush weak and neutral to the other two dmg types. i already dodge friars, so its not gonna matter if they do more damage. just not being totally lit up by blades would be super cool.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:50 PM by inoeth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:14 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:11 PM
i dont think changing dmg tables is a good solution it will also impact other classes... not sure if that is wanted.
imo keep the game as much free of custom changes as possible, custom in form of things that have never been there in any form on live servers.
imo getting legendary weapons can solve the problem, it is proven for years already...

Maybe it was unclear, but the suggestion was to remove those armour dmg tables only for stealth vs stealth. Friar is excluded in these circumstances, it is obvious that a friar shouldn't be penalized in any situation, they got it tough enough

actually i really like to change weapons based on amor type, it was some kind of additional challenge and with legendarys more specs become viable .... just remove the debuff procs and let them not work on casted debuffs. and maybe flat them out to 5% bonus even though i really liked the dmg bonus of 15% on my hunter vs infis ;D ... this got also changed later to 5%
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:01 AM by phixion
As someone who plays a SB as my main, I would like to chip in here.

From the very start, I noticed I did considerably less damage than almost every NS I encountered. I am not exaggerating when I say that I would hit them for 120 and they'd hit me for 170+, and this wasn't a one off, it was always the same story. Ask any SB and they will tell you the same thing.

The struggle to RR5 was real, I was always outdamaged by low RR Nightshades--Brehons/Grove Protectors hitting harder than I could when thought I was 3 RRs higher than them.

I have a friend who gave up playing his SB due to frustrations on how crap his damage was in comparison to every NS out there, he's actually the person who alerted me to how huge the damage gap is, as I don't usually look through logs like that. Fight after fight he was being out damaged by 40+ a swing. After telling me, I would scour the logs after fights and see exactly the same thing, huge damage from every NS I come across.

When it comes to Elf Nightshades and Rangers, that 2% Slash racial resist sure does seem to affect a lot, because my damage is even more dire against those. I honestly had no idea how big a deal armour and racial resists were and I have never noticed them affecting damage so much in all my time playing.

A few things I'm not convinced about here:

Racial Resists/Armour Resist tables: Are you absolutely sure they are working as they should here?

Left Axe: 44LA spec styles hit for less than 44CS styles, I'm almost positive it should be the other way around when it comes to anytime styles. CS does big damage on the PA/BS/Evade chain (or should), but not so much on the anytime. Adding up the MH/OH damage from a Garrote shows that it does more damage than Doublefrost MH/OH combined. Damage from the offhand seems lacklustre.

Critical Strike: The anytime styles hit harder than they should, the hamstring chain seems weaker. I played a NS on live to RR11 and I recall the Hamstring chain being a game changer... well, that is not the case here. I've lost fights here to NS's spamming garrote whilst I got 2 full hamstring chains off. There is absolutely no DAoC universe in which that should be the case, ever. Getting the Hamstring chain off twice in a fight should be a guaranteed win in a straight up 1on1, especially when your opponent is only spamming garrote. Look at the growth rates on the hamstring chain styles, they're huge, yet the damage from them is "meh". I hit harder with my Garrote than I do with Ripper and Rib Sep, how?

Evades/Misses: This has always seemed off to me, I would put my life savings on something being very wrong with this formula. I have never seen so many evades and misses in my 18 years of playing. My character goes through stages of feeling like an absolute gimp, unable to hit anything, while the enemy manages to dodge 5 out of 7 hits with a 10% evade chance. I know others have noticed this, so it's not just me.

At this point I've progressed to the point where I can complete vs Nightshades but I'm pretty sure once we are equal RR I will be getting destroyed once again. I am 100% reliant on my realm abilities to do any damage whilst NS's appear to be dishing out huge damage even at low RR spamming garrote.

I would be against legendary weapons, there's plenty of weapons in the game to choose from already and adding Legendary Weapons will just force everyone to SC again and carry huge amounts of weapons for every armour type to compete.

I wouldn't be against the levelling of armour resist tables across all 3 realms as long as it only affected assassins/archers and not everyone else.

SB's are already very weak in comparison to other assassins, no stun after evade, no side stun etc. And our party trick of 2h PA is absolutely pointless and not worth using.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:51 AM by Riac
^^ this entirely, today i missed my MH 3x in a row vs a bard lol 9% chance of that .09*.09*.09=.000729 chance of that happening and it happens all the time lol

and im aware of confirmation bias, but this is bullshit tbh.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:53 AM by Padatoo
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:01 AM
Left Axe: 44LA spec styles hit for less than 44CS styles, I'm almost positive it should be the other way around when it comes to anytime styles. CS does big damage on the PA/BS/Evade chain (or should), but not so much on the anytime. Adding up the MH/OH damage from a Garrote shows that it does more damage than Doublefrost MH/OH combined. Damage from the offhand seems lacklustre.

Critical Strike: The anytime styles hit harder than they should, the hamstring chain seems weaker. I played a NS on live to RR11 and I recall the Hamstring chain being a game changer... well, that is not the case here. I've lost fights here to NS's spamming garrote whilst I got 2 full hamstring chains off. There is absolutely no DAoC universe in which that should be the case, ever. Getting the Hamstring chain off twice in a fight should be a guaranteed win in a straight up 1on1, especially when your opponent is only spamming garrote. Look at the growth rates on the hamstring chain styles, they're huge, yet the damage from them is "meh". I hit harder with my Garrote than I do with Ripper and Rib Sep, how?

Evades/Misses: This has always seemed off to me, I would put my life savings on something being very wrong with this formula. I have never seen so many evades and misses in my 18 years of playing. My character goes through stages of feeling like an absolute gimp, unable to hit anything, while the enemy manages to dodge 5 out of 7 hits with a 10% evade chance. I know others have noticed this, so it's not just me.

LA: I wouldnt compare LA back style to CS evade chain style - the evade chain is not reliable to pull off ,will get evaded in 50% of the cases

Critical Strike: Could you give some combat logs of Garrote hitting harder then Hamstring please?

Evades/Misses: Thats anecdotal evidence again - I am aware of the evade/miss parades and have them happen to myself as well,but they also tend to happen to those pesky lurikeens.
Yesterday I was circling the mmg while holding my kid with my left hand ,got opened by NS luri with PA for nice 500 dmg....luri has died///// wtf how? After checking the logs I noticed that my ape has evaded his Creeping death and after that the luri just couldnt land 1 important style ,also I had my armor epic reactives proc 3 times in succession (2 heals + 1 ablative) . RNG rules the melee ))
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:04 AM by Spewy
I would like to know when does GMs will react for all SBs players. We are out-damaged by 20-30% each hits versus NS/INFIL mainhand & offhand. CS or LA spec, either way we are doomed.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:09 AM by Sepplord
Spewy wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:04 AM
I would like to know when does GMs will react for all SBs players. We are out-damaged by 20-30% each hits versus NS/INFIL mainhand & offhand. CS or LA spec, either way we are doomed.

It hasn't even been a week since the last assassin changes...and gruenesschaf has commented here on this topic a lot.

The answer to when they will do something is quite obvious to me: "as soon as they have found a solution that they believe is reasonable and doesn't break other parts of the game"


Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:07 AM by gruenesschaf
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:51 AM
^^ this entirely, today i missed my MH 3x in a row vs a bard lol 9% chance of that .09*.09*.09=.000729 chance of that happening and it happens all the time lol

and im aware of confirmation bias, but this is bullshit tbh.

Post logs or it didn't happen. Miss (and resist) is since quite a while on the random variant 2 again and with that and a 9% chance there is no possible way to have a streak of 3 as such a streak is not in the deck. Unless ofc you conflate miss + evade as "miss", if both were around 9% you'd have 2 independent 9% checks with each hit.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:53 AM by dante`afk
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:01 AM
Critical Strike: The anytime styles hit harder than they should, the hamstring chain seems weaker. I played a NS on live to RR11 and I recall the Hamstring chain being a game changer... well, that is not the case here. I've lost fights here to NS's spamming garrote whilst I got 2 full hamstring chains off. There is absolutely no DAoC universe in which that should be the case, ever. Getting the Hamstring chain off twice in a fight should be a guaranteed win in a straight up 1on1, especially when your opponent is only spamming garrote. Look at the growth rates on the hamstring chain styles, they're huge, yet the damage from them is "meh". I hit harder with my Garrote than I do with Ripper and Rib Sep, how?


Good point which I forgot to mention, I've seen that too and agree 100%.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:06 PM by keen
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:01 AM
Look at the growth rates on the hamstring chain styles, they're huge, yet the damage from them is "meh". I hit harder with my Garrote than I do with Ripper and Rib Sep, how?
Cause you dont.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:11 PM by Spewy
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:09 AM
Spewy wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:04 AM
I would like to know when does GMs will react for all SBs players. We are out-damaged by 20-30% each hits versus NS/INFIL mainhand & offhand. CS or LA spec, either way we are doomed.

It hasn't even been a week since the last assassin changes...and gruenesschaf has commented here on this topic a lot.

The answer to when they will do something is quite obvious to me: "as soon as they have found a solution that they believe is reasonable and doesn't break other parts of the game"




which change? the LA buff?

haha yes I am thankful for that but nothing change SBs are still way way way way under the DPS that should be.

But I see it coming. if one day we will get back to what we should be. NS & INFIL will start to complain.

I did some test yesterday with Phixion to show him how LA is broken on this server. he didnt trust me, then after we told me : "I go respe CS" (he is 44LA)
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:13 PM by Spewy
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:06 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:01 AM
Look at the growth rates on the hamstring chain styles, they're huge, yet the damage from them is "meh". I hit harder with my Garrote than I do with Ripper and Rib Sep, how?
Cause you dont.

that 100% true.

Their Garrot DPS are doing more dmg that our Hamstring/leaper chain.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:22 PM by Padatoo
Spewy wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:13 PM
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:06 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:01 AM
Look at the growth rates on the hamstring chain styles, they're huge, yet the damage from them is "meh". I hit harder with my Garrote than I do with Ripper and Rib Sep, how?
Cause you dont.

that 100% true.

Their Garrot DPS are doing more dmg that our Hamstring/leaper chain.

Let them spam garrote - makes easier to hit with OH
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:23 PM by Padatoo
Spewy wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:11 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:09 AM
Spewy wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:04 AM
I would like to know when does GMs will react for all SBs players. We are out-damaged by 20-30% each hits versus NS/INFIL mainhand & offhand. CS or LA spec, either way we are doomed.

It hasn't even been a week since the last assassin changes...and gruenesschaf has commented here on this topic a lot.

The answer to when they will do something is quite obvious to me: "as soon as they have found a solution that they believe is reasonable and doesn't break other parts of the game"




which change? the LA buff?

haha yes I am thankful for that but nothing change SBs are still way way way way under the DPS that should be.

But I see it coming. if one day we will get back to what we should be. NS & INFIL will start to complain.

I did some test yesterday with Phixion to show him how LA is broken on this server. he didnt trust me, then after we told me : "I go respe CS" (he is 44LA)

Can you please post any combat log?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:27 PM by Raec
Go to lowest level dummy, hit with garrote.
Duel a buddy next to the dummy, wait for evade and harmsting ..... the dummy.
Post result
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:29 PM by keen
Raec wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:27 PM
Go to hightest level dummy, hit with garrote.
Duel a buddy next to the dummy, wait for evade and harmsting ..... the dummy.
Post result
Fixed that for you
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:30 PM by Raec
keen wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:29 PM
Raec wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:27 PM
Go to hightest level dummy, hit with garrote.
Duel a buddy next to the dummy, wait for evade and harmsting ..... the dummy.
Post result
Fixed that for you

Why highest? I was thinking lowest to see cap dmg.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:32 PM by keen
Why would you be interested in cap DMG, you never hit for that in rvr. You want to see realistic dmg.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:34 PM by Raec
Cause tester could find a direct and fast bug proof right after first swing if the cap on garrote is higher or equal than harmsting.

Maybe im wrong but hitting lowest level dummy i shuould see the max style dmg applied to the swing ( the one in the (---) , example (+152) ) , am i ?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:36 PM by keen
There is no variance on the level 50 dummy either, so 2hits are enough as well
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:38 PM by gruenesschaf
Spewy wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:11 PM
which change? the LA buff?

haha yes I am thankful for that but nothing change SBs are still way way way way under the DPS that should be.

But I see it coming. if one day we will get back to what we should be. NS & INFIL will start to complain.

I did some test yesterday with Phixion to show him how LA is broken on this server. he didnt trust me, then after we told me : "I go respe CS" (he is 44LA)

These kind of comments really make me wonder if it would be better to just close these threads and ignore the assassins entirely as the vast majority is all just subjective bullshit from memory against people without resists or not even from memory but just some fantasy.

People are seriously asking why the sb does around 15 - 20% less damage than an ns with mainhand, fail to omit that it's a blade shade where it could be clearly seen that there would indeed be a 20% difference from the armor resists alone. Then you got people who have zero clue about how LA works thinking that their offhand will magically do a billion damage more when you spec into it yet fail to say that they have a 2.9 offhand, fail to take the mainhand increase into account and just say "10 damage for 20 more spec, lol" but ignore the fact that it's an damage increase of 10 or more percent.

The formulas how it's supposed to work are all out there, you have zero variance here meaning you can 100% without having to test for a million swings exactly see what each stat / spec point does, but no, let's just go with memory, preferably even 1.62 before the la nerf against some random epic wizards or even shortly after toa release against all the oceanus randoms.

Then you have people claiming their garotte / achilles does more damage than their harmstring chain, yes it's possible if you compare the damage against leather with the damage against chain, or when the enemy has a 20% advantage against you but not given the same stats against the same target. We even show the growth rate and resulting style multiplier for each hit, there is exactly zero reason or value in claiming something that every single execution of said styles disproves.

Is it possible that there are bugs in the formula implementation? Absolutely and while at this point it actually is somewhat unlikely that there is such a bug left in the melee formula, you have all those numbers for a reason and that reason is to easily test things but after doing such tests post the results of that and not some weird and unrealistic claims.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:46 PM by Padatoo
Raec wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:27 PM
Go to lowest level dummy, hit with garrote.
Duel a buddy next to the dummy, wait for evade and harmsting ..... the dummy.
Post result

I personally wasted enouph respec stones already,to check the bullshit claims that people post on forums or advice channel.The person who claims anything that is against common sense has to provide any kind of a proof.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:15 PM by Sepplord
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:46 PM
Raec wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:27 PM
Go to lowest level dummy, hit with garrote.
Duel a buddy next to the dummy, wait for evade and harmsting ..... the dummy.
Post result

I personally wasted enouph respec stones already,to check the bullshit claims that people post on forums or advice channel.The person who claims anything that is against common sense has to provide any kind of a proof.

i agree, burden of proof always lies upon the accuser, not the the one questioning the accusation.
Gruenes has summed it up quite nicely (again) and the main problems of SB is the armorresists/dmgtype imbalance (and maybe that NS/Inf got tier1 stuns in bladespecc while SB still only has tier2 stuns that they never had on the base patchlevel)
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:36 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:15 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:46 PM
Raec wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:27 PM
Go to lowest level dummy, hit with garrote.
Duel a buddy next to the dummy, wait for evade and harmsting ..... the dummy.
Post result

I personally wasted enouph respec stones already,to check the bullshit claims that people post on forums or advice channel.The person who claims anything that is against common sense has to provide any kind of a proof.

i agree, burden of proof always lies upon the accuser, not the the one questioning the accusation.
Gruenes has summed it up quite nicely (again) and the main problems of SB is the armorresists/dmgtype imbalance (and maybe that NS/Inf got tier1 stuns in bladespecc while SB still only has tier2 stuns that they never had on the base patchlevel)

So far this is the only thing I can agree with in this thread. I would like to know the reasoning and/or if it will be considered in giving shadow blades an off evade stun. Adding in the side stun in LA would be far too much imo as then it would have to be added into CD/DW which would start to affect the 3 Light Tanks.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:55 PM by inoeth
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:36 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:15 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:46 PM
I personally wasted enouph respec stones already,to check the bullshit claims that people post on forums or advice channel.The person who claims anything that is against common sense has to provide any kind of a proof.

i agree, burden of proof always lies upon the accuser, not the the one questioning the accusation.
Gruenes has summed it up quite nicely (again) and the main problems of SB is the armorresists/dmgtype imbalance (and maybe that NS/Inf got tier1 stuns in bladespecc while SB still only has tier2 stuns that they never had on the base patchlevel)

So far this is the only thing I can agree with in this thread. I would like to know the reasoning and/or if it will be considered in giving shadow blades an off evade stun. Adding in the side stun in LA would be far too much imo as then it would have to be added into CD/DW which would start to affect the 3 Light Tanks.

no only one (zerk) since the other two alrdy have a better ANYTIME stun
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:56 PM by Sepplord
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:36 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:15 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 12:46 PM
I personally wasted enouph respec stones already,to check the bullshit claims that people post on forums or advice channel.The person who claims anything that is against common sense has to provide any kind of a proof.

i agree, burden of proof always lies upon the accuser, not the the one questioning the accusation.
Gruenes has summed it up quite nicely (again) and the main problems of SB is the armorresists/dmgtype imbalance (and maybe that NS/Inf got tier1 stuns in bladespecc while SB still only has tier2 stuns that they never had on the base patchlevel)

So far this is the only thing I can agree with in this thread. I would like to know the reasoning and/or if it will be considered in giving shadow blades an off evade stun. Adding in the side stun in LA would be far too much imo as then it would have to be added into CD/DW which would start to affect the 3 Light Tanks.

i disagree a little bit. I know where you are coming from, aka the armortable differences have always existed (correct me if i am assuming wrong here). And that argument is not completely irrelevant. BUT giving NS/Infs the option to go slash-dmg without losing evadestun completely is a far bigger difference than moving tier2 stun to tier1 on SB. Before Bladeshades had to make decision to have a huge dmg increase, but forfeit their stun.

I would probably still argue that the dmg-resist tables are very biased in the assassin matchup and could get adjusted, but what is quite obvious is that:

getting a tier1 evade-stun instead of tier2 evade-stun is vastly inferior to getting a tier1 evade-stun instead of not having a evade-stun at all
Thu 14 Mar 2019 2:03 PM by Amp_Phetamine
inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:55 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:36 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 1:15 PM
i agree, burden of proof always lies upon the accuser, not the the one questioning the accusation.
Gruenes has summed it up quite nicely (again) and the main problems of SB is the armorresists/dmgtype imbalance (and maybe that NS/Inf got tier1 stuns in bladespecc while SB still only has tier2 stuns that they never had on the base patchlevel)

So far this is the only thing I can agree with in this thread. I would like to know the reasoning and/or if it will be considered in giving shadow blades an off evade stun. Adding in the side stun in LA would be far too much imo as then it would have to be added into CD/DW which would start to affect the 3 Light Tanks.

no only one (zerk) since the other two alrdy have a better ANYTIME stun

Well, that's assuming that every Mercenary/Blademaster specs for Slam. I personally find it pointless, I'd rather have a main tank handle slam and keep my increased weapon skill/damage with dual wield.

But there is no doubt that having access to 9s slam on BM/Merc definitely puts Zerkers at a disadvantage in terms of available stuns.

I'd still only support the off-evade opener stun.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 2:31 PM by Riac
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:07 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:51 AM
^^ this entirely, today i missed my MH 3x in a row vs a bard lol 9% chance of that .09*.09*.09=.000729 chance of that happening and it happens all the time lol

and im aware of confirmation bias, but this is bullshit tbh.

Post logs or it didn't happen. Miss (and resist) is since quite a while on the random variant 2 again and with that and a 9% chance there is no possible way to have a streak of 3 as such a streak is not in the deck. Unless ofc you conflate miss + evade as "miss", if both were around 9% you'd have 2 independent 9% checks with each hit.

i will ss next time, and i'm not conflating evades w/ missies, these were MH misses. i even got one that said i was too far to hit my target but my oh still hit him, idk what that was but it was wierd.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:39 PM by phixion
Do armour table vulnerabilities really equate to 20% more damage?

I have seen my garrote doing more damage than my hamstring chain styles. If I ever venture back to CS spec again I will post screenshots.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:51 PM by Amp_Phetamine
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:39 PM
Do armour table vulnerabilities really equate to 20% more damage?

I have seen my garrote doing more damage than my hamstring chain styles. If I ever venture back to CS spec again I will post screenshots.

I mean, you kinda need to post SS of these sorts of claims.

You saying "well, that one time I was fighting that one guy (or even mob) and I think I noticed that my garrote style was consistently outperforming my hamstring chain", is hardly viable enough to form a basis of truth.

Not saying you're being untruthful about it, but there's literally nothing to go on but your word.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:08 PM by phixion
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:51 PM
I mean, you kinda need to post SS of these sorts of claims.

You saying "well, that one time I was fighting that one guy (or even mob) and I think I noticed that my garrote style was consistently outperforming my hamstring chain", is hardly viable enough to form a basis of truth.

Not saying you're being untruthful about it, but there's literally nothing to go on but your word.

Which is why I said if I ever ventured down the path of CS again I would post screenshots. Believe me, I have posted plenty of screenshots proving other bugs on the tracker e.g. Necro ignoring vanish bug/Theurgist ignoring vanish bug. I've also posted another one recently regarding Animist bombers ignoring vanish.

But I am done testing, I've spent a fortune on respec stones and I'm not prepared to spend more. IMO if a potential bug is presented it shouldn't be down to players to have to spend their hard earned cash in game to attempt to prove it. I already farm TG 5 days a week to try and keep up with my pots and recharges.

Not trying to sound like an ass, but at this point, I really don't care enough to make it my crusade. I'm enjoying the SB for what it is, it definitely has it's downsides compared to other Assassins, but I enjoy playing it. I've definitely seen a shift in balance as I progressed through RRs, I used to really struggle but now I do quite well, so can't complain.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:27 PM by gruenesschaf
There is a pretty big difference between vanish bugs, aka some fringe case related to targeting, and bugs in the implementation of formulas. The existence of these corner case bugs has literally nothing at all to do with melee damage or similar claims.

Mobs are supposed to finish their cast when they started it, mobs are supposed to follow their target and ignore stealth entirely once aggroed, those were the starting points. The decision to make mobs no longer follow stealthed people when out of detection range is a prime example of something that will just have bugs as all places could freely ignore stealth entirely because if it aggroed / started to cast it will remain aggroed / finish the cast on that target and there was no need ever to check the target in any way. This goes doubly so for vanish as that also removes the detection range restriction and makes even mobs stop casting, who since they aren't supposed to have it, haven't even had a second line of sight check.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:44 PM by phixion
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:27 PM
There is a pretty big difference between vanish bugs, aka some fringe case related to targeting, and bugs in the implementation of formulas. The existence of these corner case bugs has literally nothing at all to do with melee damage or similar claims.

Mobs are supposed to finish their cast when they started it, mobs are supposed to follow their target and ignore stealth entirely once aggroed, those were the starting points. The decision to make mobs no longer follow stealthed people when out of detection range is a prime example of something that will just have bugs as all places could freely ignore stealth entirely because if it aggroed / started to cast it will remain aggroed / finish the cast on that target and there was no need ever to check the target in any way. This goes doubly so for vanish as that also removes the detection range restriction and makes even mobs stop casting, who since they aren't supposed to have it, haven't even had a second line of sight check.

Of course, all I'm saying is that I have submitted screenshots in the past regarding bugs, I just cannot afford to test these sorts of things as they are expensive. I've respecced numerous times trying to get a grasp on how LA mechanics work and how they actually affect damage.

I've played the game quite consistently from release and I've never felt the need to look in to formulas or how certain skills work, I just play the game. You must remember that most of us don't have the numbers in front of us, we can't bring up the calculations being used on this server so have no way of knowing what is right or wrong, we just report back with anecdotes on how things don't seem to be right. Whilst this isn't very helpful to you, I would hope it does prompt someone to maybe check the formulas to absolutely make sure there are no mistakes, If I remember correctly, there have been incorrect formulas used and fixed in the past, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility for there to me more.

I've even considered the combat info stats may be skewing things even more, on live you didn't see the % chances so would just accept anomolies. But when I see 5/7 attacks evaded with a 10% evade chance, I have to start wondering whether it's working as intended. I know, RNG and all...
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:45 PM by Sepplord
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:39 PM
Do armour table vulnerabilities really equate to 20% more damage?

not exactly 20% but close enough.
Depending where you put the base you could argue it to be a bit higher or lower but that just overcomplicates the discussion

Explanation:
Hibleather is slashdamage resistant, takes 10%less damage
Midleather is slashdamage vulnerable, takes 10%more dmg

When both deal 100dmg to each other,
the NS hit the SB for 110
the SB hit the NS for 90
Difference: 20dmg

The NS does 22,2222% more dmg than the SB
The SB does 18,1818% less dmg than the NS

Aka: it's technically incorrect, but easierfor all of us to just say 20%
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:50 PM by phixion
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:45 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:39 PM
Do armour table vulnerabilities really equate to 20% more damage?

not exactly 20% but close enough.
Depending where you put the base you could argue it to be a bit higher or lower but that just overcomplicates the discussion

Explanation:
Hibleather is slashdamage resistant, takes 10%less damage
Midleather is slashdamage vulnerable, takes 10%more dmg

When both deal 100dmg to each other,
the NS hit the SB for 110
the SB hit the NS for 90
Difference: 20dmg

The NS does 22,2222% more dmg than the SB
The SB does 18,1818% less dmg than the NS

Aka: it's technically incorrect, but easierfor all of us to just say 20%

Goes a long way to explaining why I hit them for 140 and they hit me for 160+

The 2% from Elf racial also seems to make a huge difference.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:55 PM by jelzinga_EU
Possible explanations where Hamstring < Garrote is:

* You get WS/CON debuff on your between the initial Garrote and the Hamstring
* You fighting someone who is not templated and the target wears AF80 on gloves and Garrote hit gloves and AF102 on Chest and Hamstring hits chest
* Being "de-hasted" on Garrote while not on Hamstring (e.g. after Achilles Heel)

Those are not bugs and intended. It is annoying the thread gets filled with "bullshit" and sensible comments but that is often how forums go...
Thu 14 Mar 2019 5:20 PM by dante`afk
well, can we have the dummies trigger evades so we can test it on them? also free respecs to test all those things on a test server or so?

"someone's is untemplated", this is a deadbeat argument; with as how easy everything was made here , no one is untemplated here unless they are rr1 or grey. and this variance between garotte and hamstring combo would surely have gone unnoticed on an untemplated character, he'd just be decimated.

on live, if I bring the hamstring combo to you, i pretty much won 99%, here it's like i'm trying to dig a hole with a plastic shovel in a concrete floor. no effect at all.
however, having an infi/ns hitting me with the hamstring combo, i'm dead. (and no, they don't have to wear slash weapons to do that)
Thu 14 Mar 2019 5:36 PM by Padatoo
dante`afk wrote: well, can we have the dummies trigger evades so we can test it on them? also free respecs to test all those things on a test server or so?

"someone's is untemplated", this is a deadbeat argument; with as how easy everything was made here , no one is untemplated here unless they are rr1 or grey. and this variance between garotte and hamstring combo would surely have gone unnoticed on an untemplated character, he'd just be decimated.

on live, if I bring the hamstring combo to you, i pretty much won 99%, here it's like i'm trying to dig a hole with a plastic shovel in a concrete floor. no effect at all.
however, having an infi/ns hitting me with the hamstring combo, i'm dead. (and no, they don't have to wear slash weapons to do that)
Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:03 PM by Amp_Phetamine
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 5:20 PM
well, can we have the dummies trigger evades so we can test it on them? also free respecs to test all those things on a test server or so?

"someone's is untemplated", this is a deadbeat argument; with as how easy everything was made here , no one is untemplated here unless they are rr1 or grey. and this variance between garotte and hamstring combo would surely have gone unnoticed on an untemplated character, he'd just be decimated.

on live, if I bring the hamstring combo to you, i pretty much won 99%, here it's like i'm trying to dig a hole with a plastic shovel in a concrete floor. no effect at all.
however, having an infi/ns hitting me with the hamstring combo, i'm dead. (and no, they don't have to wear slash weapons to do that)

I only agree with your first sentence.

Everything else is simply subjective opinion.

No, there is absolutely no way that "every" single person that you encounter in the FZ is templated lol, that's just a blatantly false statment. Claiming you won 99% of your fights on live, literally solely because of the hamstring combo, is a blatant lie. The fact that you can't kill an infil/ns because of the hamstring combo, literally doesn't make sense.

I get you're emotional regarding Shadow Blades but let's keep things reasonably believable. Obviously one of the forum mods/devs is getting tired of the embellishing that is going on in the thread.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:20 PM by dante`afk
You are misinterpreting, I never said I'm not able to beat XY because of ZY. You are also misinterpreting thinking I won everything because of the hamstring combo. I merely say the combo is an almost guaranteed win.

And on the last part, I'm also merely agreeing with other SBs here who share that something does not feel quite right to as what we used to as we played SBs for 6+ years on live.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:31 PM by jelzinga_EU
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 5:20 PM
well, can we have the dummies trigger evades so we can test it on them? also free respecs to test all those things on a test server or so?

"someone's is untemplated", this is a deadbeat argument; with as how easy everything was made here , no one is untemplated here unless they are rr1 or grey. and this variance between garotte and hamstring combo would surely have gone unnoticed on an untemplated character, he'd just be decimated.

on live, if I bring the hamstring combo to you, i pretty much won 99%, here it's like i'm trying to dig a hole with a plastic shovel in a concrete floor. no effect at all.
however, having an infi/ns hitting me with the hamstring combo, i'm dead. (and no, they don't have to wear slash weapons to do that)

On Live, the Hamstring-combo is a lot more potent as it has absorb-debuffs, which aren't available on Phoenix. My experience is that Hamstring-combo isn't an "i-win" (which makes sense, it is quite common to land seeing we got Evade 7).

Seeing how you quickly dispose of the reasons I mentioned (all which are valid) by just stating complete and utter nonsense ("nobody is untemplated" is not helping your case. If you claim something unlikely, you better back it up or your argument just falls on deaf ears. And in this case, people like Gruenes-Schaff who have the power to do.. well everything on this server, are already getting annoyed by complete false claims.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:36 PM by dante`afk
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:31 PM
On Live, the Hamstring-combo is a lot more potent as it has absorb-debuffs, which aren't available on Phoenix. My experience is that Hamstring-combo isn't an "i-win" (which makes sense, it is quite common to land seeing we got Evade 7).

With live hamstring combo I mean the hamstring combo that I used to play form 2002 to 2009, not what we have currently on live. Still does not explain why our counterparts excel so good with that combo but SB's are not, as multiple people have mentioned here.

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:31 PM
Seeing how you quickly dispose of the reasons I mentioned (all which are valid) by just stating complete and utter nonsense ("nobody is untemplated" is not helping your case. If you claim something unlikely, you better back it up or your argument just falls on deaf ears. And in this case, people like Gruenes-Schaff who have the power to do.. well everything on this server, are already getting annoyed by complete false claims.

In that case, everything is a false claim because we're all just replying triggered by our feelings and assumptions? Of course, we can test only so much within our given limits (dummies can only allow so much, respecs cost gold, no unlimited respecs) The evidence we have is screenshots and videos by playing this version of DAoC on this server, and remembering how our class performed there and how it performs here. If more evidence is necessary, please give us the option to make extensive tests without having to pay out of our own pocket.

While your arguments might be valid to some extent (in your believe), they are also merely just an assumption to what could be to find an explanation, also without any evidence and backup, so are mine. And I'm also sure a SB like Phixion who nolifed so far to RR8 since server opening, knows a little bit his ins and outs on what is happening on the screen to be able to distinguish between templated or non templated, if/when debuff kicks in or not, if purged or not.

Continuing on the underlying problem, this is not a coincidence that so many seasoned players of us (SBs) are reporting all those things in this thread, and then we have people who never played an assassin coming along and trying to nullify our statements or make them not/less valid.

Something is not working properly.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Keep in mind, not all 3 archtypes are supposed to mirror one another.

If Shadowblades, by design, are at a natural disadvantage to blade nightshades that's a constant variable that has to be anticipated.

Remember that stat caps only reach +75 so unlike Live that gave Celt's the ability to be NS's, lurikeen and elves cannot reach 400 base strength to reach the melee hard cap.

Through RR shadowblades will be able to compensate for some of the armor resist disadvantage especially if they split some points into Aug Str, seeing as MoStealth is tied into the stealth spec now and no longer requires realm points.

I am fervently against trying to equalize the 3 archtypes and I can't comprehend why it's always the assassins and hunters that do this.

I have yet to see a single thread comparing the 3 Light Tanks, 3 Heavy Tanks, 3 caster dps mains, 3 Healers.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:55 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Keep in mind, not all 3 archtypes are supposed to mirror one another.

If Shadowblades, by design, are at a natural disadvantage to blade nightshades that's a constant variable that has to be anticipated.

Remember that stat caps only reach +75 so unlike Live that gave Celt's the ability to be NS's, lurikeen and elves cannot reach 400 base strength to reach the melee hard cap.

Through RR shadowblades will be able to compensate for some of the armor resist disadvantage especially if they split some points into Aug Str, seeing as MoStealth is tied into the stealth spec now and no longer requires realm points.

I am fervently against trying to equalize the 3 archtypes and I can't comprehend why it's always the assassins and hunters that do this.

I have yet to see a single thread comparing the 3 Light Tanks, 3 Heavy Tanks, 3 caster dps mains, 3 Healers.

If we are going to operate under the assumption that NS some what of a natural counter to SBs (sort of like a paper rock scissors setup similar to other games) then what class do SBs prey upon better than the other assassins? (and pls dont say casters lol)

also why do we need higher RR than our peer just to compete? what if our peer has just as much RR? will they still not have the same advantage over us?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:56 PM by dante`afk
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Keep in mind, not all 3 archtypes are supposed to mirror one another.
I know.
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
If Shadowblades, by design, are at a natural disadvantage to blade nightshades that's a constant variable that has to be anticipated.
I'm fine with that, and that is also one of the reasons why I play a SB.

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Remember that stat caps only reach +75 so unlike Live that gave Celt's the ability to be NS's, lurikeen and elves cannot reach 400 base strength to reach the melee hard cap.
It's not about Celts or str caps.

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
I am fervently against trying to equalize the 3 archtypes and I can't comprehend why it's always the assassins and hunters that do this.

No one is trying to equalize all 3 assassin classes. Read my post above again Something is wrong with whatever table, formula, calculation, I don't know.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:55 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Keep in mind, not all 3 archtypes are supposed to mirror one another.

If Shadowblades, by design, are at a natural disadvantage to blade nightshades that's a constant variable that has to be anticipated.

Remember that stat caps only reach +75 so unlike Live that gave Celt's the ability to be NS's, lurikeen and elves cannot reach 400 base strength to reach the melee hard cap.

Through RR shadowblades will be able to compensate for some of the armor resist disadvantage especially if they split some points into Aug Str, seeing as MoStealth is tied into the stealth spec now and no longer requires realm points.

I am fervently against trying to equalize the 3 archtypes and I can't comprehend why it's always the assassins and hunters that do this.

I have yet to see a single thread comparing the 3 Light Tanks, 3 Heavy Tanks, 3 caster dps mains, 3 Healers.

If we are going to operate under the assumption that NS some what of a natural counter to SBs (sort of like a paper rock scissors setup similar to other games) then what class do SBs prey upon better than the other assassins? (and pls dont say casters lol)

also why do we need higher RR than our peer just to compete? what if our peer has just as much RR? will they still not have the same advantage over us?

That's a wrong assumption to operate under. It's simply that SB's match-up poorly to blade nightshades... nothing more, nothing less.

Why do you feel the need to be able to "evenly" compete against every single class in the game? - The General Assassin Ideology.

Seriously where do you struggle? Against NS' and templated tanks? That's what, 3 (4 if you count the infil /shrug) of all the enemy classes?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:17 PM by Amp_Phetamine
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:56 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
I am fervently against trying to equalize the 3 archtypes and I can't comprehend why it's always the assassins and hunters that do this.

No one is trying to equalize all 3 assassin classes. Read my post above again Something is wrong with whatever table, formula, calculation, I don't know.

It's possible, and I'd leave that to better qualified individuals to identify that.

It's just difficult, especially coming from an outside perspective, trying to take the majority of posts here seriously.

Has anyone else even created a thread dedicated to the nuance differences among the other archtypes (aside from the rangers)?

Think about it, why do assassins and archers have thread after thread dedicated to nit picking the differences among each other and no other class trio does?

There are certainly far more differences between the BM/Merc/Zerker than similarities but I'd be hard pressed if it'd garner a 20+ page thread dedicated to it...
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:19 PM by Riac
i'd say its a bit more than a poor match up, its a blow out.
i don't mind it being not equal, but it should at least be competitive. 20% spread in dmg is just huge.
there is next to no incentive for them to spec pierce over blade (the ws skill argument seems pretty weak to me) i seem to have more trouble hitting them then they have hitting me (im aware thats my opinion)

and as far as the bm/zerk/merc point, those classes generally run in a group so their weakness are made up by the strengths of their group members. the only sort of groups that stealthers run in is stealth groups. 2sbs vs 2ns dont necessarily make up for each others weaknesses.

also zerks are pretty unhappy about their peers getting slam when they do not, so ppl def talk about the differences between them.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:29 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:19 PM
i'd say its a bit more than a poor match up, its a blow out.
i don't mind it being not equal, but it should at least be competitive. 20% spread in dmg is just huge.
there is next to no incentive for them to spec pierce over blade (the ws skill argument seems pretty weak to me) i seem to have more trouble hitting them then they have hitting me (im aware thats my opinion)

I believe you're embellishing again. It is competitive, is it not?

Why would an increase in weapon skill not be considered an advantage? Why is there no incentive for them to spec thrust?

At equal RR and fully buffed/templated a SB vs NS encounter would statistically favor the night shade. That doesn't mean the shadow blade has no chance of beating them. I don't run out in FZ and see night shades just auto-killing shadow blades on a whim and I'm sure assuming such is an insult to the shadow blades here that take pride in their capabilities on the class.

You have a natural disadvantage against night shades. Does that not make it far more rewarding when you beat them? Instead of sitting on the forums trying to nit pick each individual difference just accept the fact that that disadvantage is there and enjoy the moments when you succeed against it..
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:39 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:29 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:19 PM
i'd say its a bit more than a poor match up, its a blow out.
i don't mind it being not equal, but it should at least be competitive. 20% spread in dmg is just huge.
there is next to no incentive for them to spec pierce over blade (the ws skill argument seems pretty weak to me) i seem to have more trouble hitting them then they have hitting me (im aware thats my opinion)

I believe you're embellishing again. It is competitive, is it not?

Why would an increase in weapon skill not be considered an advantage? Why is there no incentive for them to spec thrust?

At equal RR and fully buffed/templated a SB vs NS encounter would statistically favor the night shade. That doesn't mean the shadow blade has no chance of beating them. I don't run out in FZ and see night shades just auto-killing shadow blades on a whim and I'm sure assuming such is an insult to the shadow blades here that take pride in their capabilities on the class.

You have a natural disadvantage against night shades. Does that not make it far more rewarding when you beat them? Instead of sitting on the forums trying to nit pick each individual difference just accept the fact that that disadvantage is there and enjoy the moments when you succeed against it..

its not competitive, phixion has even said he relys totally on his RR to beat these guys. that would imply something is bit less than fair. also how many ppl have to chime in with experiences that seem to be quite similar?

there is no incentive to spec thrust because you can go blade and kill ppl MUCH easier, seems like a hell of an incentive to not spec thrust. i think the proof is in the pudding for this one. how many pierce shades have yall seen running around out here?

and as far as an insult to the SB community, i think ppl like you are far more insulting then me saying SB is weak. you come in here and say all of our experiences are invalid for one reason or another when you dont even play a stealther. even the gm has recognized it as being unfair.

and as far as it being rewarding when you win lol id rather just not get shit on 9 times out of 10 (go ahead and say im embellishing, its an exaggeration but probably not by much lol, sorry i havent been keeping a running tally in my stealther fights)

since my matchup vs NS has a natural disadvantage.... what match up does NS have a natural disadvantage in?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:55 PM by Padatoo
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:19 PM
i'd say its a bit more than a poor match up, its a blow out.
i don't mind it being not equal, but it should at least be competitive. 20% spread in dmg is just huge.
there is next to no incentive for them to spec pierce over blade (the ws skill argument seems pretty weak to me) i seem to have more trouble hitting them then they have hitting me (im aware thats my opinion)

To be honest,after hitting RR5 and tuning my temp & sorting the weapon golfbag ,I started to prey on any blade NS that tries to gank me......that evade stun & slashDmg are the only positive feature these NS rats have - all other styles (in both blade and CD lines) are bad,go check them out yourself (keep in mind,that any style-chain practically fails in 50% of cases - either the opening style gets miss/evaded or the followup gets miss/evaded).
SB's ,after hitting some point, switch from garrote to doublefrost and breath well again,while miserable luri's have to spam garrote until they reroll.
Also the STR dmg modifier makes them,weakling slash gimps as they are,hit like a wet noodle ,after I stack all 3 str/ws debuffs (str ,ws/con and glorious skald sword ofcourse) on em. -\If the sword is not available,there's always a str/con debuff charge.
Overall,SB's start to compete at higher RR not because they can prey on lower RR - its because they start having enouph rp available ,to buy purge5 for example ,MoA to retry the failed evade chain or AoM to reduce luri magic dmg.

I expect a NS whine thread to appear ,after majority of active SB's get over RR6 and figure out the things I mentioned.

p.s. What actually scares me,are infiltrators with Dragonfang.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:01 PM by phixion
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:55 PM
p.s. What actually scares me,are infiltrators with Dragonfang.

Agreed with everything until this, what makes dragonfang so scary when you have 5 minute purge? A stun is a stun, whether it be 7s or 9s it's still getting instantly purged
Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:15 PM by lourock
I highly doubt that any of these SB's are asking to be put on par with the other sins in their archetype. I get the feeling from the entitled narrative in this thread that they are asking to be superior. I keep hearing things like "id even take" and "give us" and it all just screams live. QOL doesnt mean WOW the classes do not need to be homogenized. Boohoo if you die to another sin in 1 v 1 combat every once in a while. Lets not talk about individual player skill, RR, Gear and other things that will factor in to a 1 v 1 encounter with another SIN. Keep flaming me for my opinion though I enjoy it
Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:20 PM by Seosaidh
I am sorry but I feel you are clueless when it comes to assassins vs assassin .

You are preaching that SBs should live up to the challenge and that it is normal that Bladeshades are a counter to SBs and what not. I am good with them having an advantage but this much? What is a counter to an Inf or a NS? What do Infs and NS sacrifice to make everything competitive? What is their challenge? Thrust-infs or pierce-NS STILL have more tools to deal with SBs. How is it a competitive playing field?

Oh, that's right lets task to rr10 and we'll have a shot. I am sorry but even if we don't do enough dmg we still get shafted because we have no viable options. We cant spec for more utilty such as an after evade stun or a DEX/STR weapon, armor tables do not favour us, poisons completely destroys because envervating and disease stack punish our weaponskill and dmg. I know that is true for bladeshades/slashinfils as well but they sitll have bonus dmg vs our leather + stun since they dont sacrifice that anymore to go slash.

How is it competitive again? I'll take competitive, I don't want to be overpowered or anything. But, I am sorry I do not percieve things to be competitive. Yes yes, "you can't operate under that assumption" but that still my assumption.

Infil with thrust, DF, DEX/STR weapo
Infil with slash, STILL has stun in spec line and 20% dmg vs mid leather
The same is applicable for NS.

ALSO, you say that we can kill any class EXCEPT tanks? Yea right. We cant reliable kill Light tanks to my knowledge? (Mercs with DT is gg) Most hybrid classes are a tough match up, Friar anyone? Other assassins ? Maybe if it falls out well. Scout? WIthout purge its GG, you'll eat a slam and critshot for 700-800 dmg in the face. Rangers, maybe. Minstrels? Without purge its gg for me at least.

That leaves casters that lag behind the zerg.

But I suck as a SB what do I know.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:25 PM by Riac
To be honest,after hitting RR5 and tuning my temp & sorting the weapon golfbag ,I started to prey on any blade NS that tries to gank me......that evade stun & slashDmg are the only positive feature these NS rats have - all other styles (in both blade and CD lines) are bad,go check them out yourself (keep in mind,that any style-chain practically fails in 50% of cases - either the opening style gets miss/evaded or the followup gets miss/evaded).
SB's ,after hitting some point, switch from garrote to doublefrost and breath well again,while miserable luri's have to spam garrote until they reroll.
Also the STR dmg modifier makes them,weakling slash gimps as they are,hit like a wet noodle ,after I stack all 3 str/ws debuffs (str ,ws/con and glorious skald sword ofcourse) on em. -\If the sword is not available,there's always a str/con debuff charge.
Overall,SB's start to compete at higher RR not because they can prey on lower RR - its because they start having enouph rp available ,to buy purge5 for example ,MoA to retry the failed evade chain or AoM to reduce luri magic dmg.

I expect a NS whine thread to appear ,after majority of active SB's get over RR6 and figure out the things I mentioned.

p.s. What actually scares me,are infiltrators with Dragonfang.
[/quote]

can you elaborate on how you tuned your temp and what you meant by sorting the weapons out pls
also can you talk about bit more about your RAs
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:01 PM by Padatoo
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:25 PM
can you elaborate on how you tuned your temp and what you meant by sorting the weapons out pls
also can you talk about bit more about your RAs
By tuning I meant finally building an almost-weaponless sword temp (+22str/+4 sword from Main Hand) - I came to it after 2 failed attemps,first being a half-assed temp and second being a-bit-less-half-assed axe temp.
RA's are purge5 ofcourse and rest of points spent on evenly spread well round improvements - for example DPS wise its not worth going deep into any dmg RA ,while ignoring other dmg RA's (same goes for survival).
And my weapons - I wont talk about. (-:
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:03 PM by Padatoo
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:01 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:55 PM
p.s. What actually scares me,are infiltrators with Dragonfang.

Agreed with everything until this, what makes dragonfang so scary when you have 5 minute purge? A stun is a stun, whether it be 7s or 9s it's still getting instantly purged

But what if its on cd?Man I've had nightmares about dragonfang already......
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:09 PM by Seosaidh
I have a main hand weaponless template with +11 in sword, axe, envenom, CS, stealth, LA. Offhand crafted with SC. Everything else also capped. But still, maybe I am missing something in RAs, weapon choice dunno.

But like I said I might suck balls at playing a SB, which is the reason i percieve tings the way I do.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:36 PM by dante`afk
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:17 PM
It's just difficult, especially coming from an outside perspective, trying to take the majority of posts here seriously.

Has anyone else even created a thread dedicated to the nuance differences among the other archtypes (aside from the rangers)?

There are certainly far more differences between the BM/Merc/Zerker than similarities but I'd be hard pressed if it'd garner a 20+ page thread dedicated to it...

Honestly, alone that you did not even come as far as that to think of as to why that might be, is a good indicator that you should stay out of this discussion (yet alone bring up this comparison). Yes I know free speech etc, but comon, it's difficulty to account any of your posts and take you seriously.

At this point I can relax and stop responding to you or people like lourock.


@Padatoo
No hate buddy, but you might just have learned to play your class a little bit. You have 85 solo kills, 400 deaths and 520 overall kills. The "temp-tuning' has nothing to do with "doing better now"
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:05 PM by florin
Not sure why so much whining - shadowblades past rr6 are devastating hitting for around 200 a swing MH on alb leather. Land a pa and it’s lights out - I’ve critted for 1965 on cloth with 2h. So much QQ either we are playing a different game or you’re pushing an agenda.

Now re blunt - simple fix - make all the leather resists the same for all weapons. Neutral for all.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:13 PM by Padatoo
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 10:36 PM
@Padatoo
The "temp-tuning' has nothing to do with "doing better now"

Ofcourse not .
Its the respec from CS to LA that has.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:14 PM by Riac
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:05 PM
Not sure why so much whining - shadowblades past rr6 are devastating hitting for around 200 a swing MH on alb leather. Land a pa and it’s lights out - I’ve critted for 1965 on cloth with 2h. So much QQ either we are playing a different game or you’re pushing an agenda.

Now re blunt - simple fix - make all the leather resists the same for all weapons. Neutral for all.

thats all the 2h is good for, trolling on solo casters that you were gonna dump on anyways.

but i do like the idea of making all leather sort of the same. or atleast make it to where sb is weak to crush like the other two, and neutral to the other two, i dont even care about not having a resistant to one type. the 20% spread is a lot to deal with.

and what makes sb special past rr6 that the NS or inf does not have?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:27 PM by florin
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:14 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:05 PM
Not sure why so much whining - shadowblades past rr6 are devastating hitting for around 200 a swing MH on alb leather. Land a pa and it’s lights out - I’ve critted for 1965 on cloth with 2h. So much QQ either we are playing a different game or you’re pushing an agenda.

Now re blunt - simple fix - make all the leather resists the same for all weapons. Neutral for all.

thats all the 2h is good for, trolling on solo casters that you were gonna dump on anyways.

but i do like the idea of making all leather sort of the same. or atleast make it to where sb is weak to crush like the other two, and neutral to the other two, i dont even care about not having a resistant to one type. the 20% spread is a lot to deal with.

and what makes sb special past rr6 that the NS or inf does not have?

They are not stuck behind a certain spec (critblade, shadow zerk etc) so the benefit of LA is fully realized and can go 5 spec more effectively.

Same with high dw/cd spec but infs have the spec points to cover at rr6, shades have the insta DD. But neither cd or dw raise MH damage

Combine higher str (+RA) you get harder hits and harder crits with mop. The str/con debuff was modified to the benefit of blade weapons. Also higher starting hp means a higher ceiling. Most fights are over in 10s so front load damage is key - and sb are the best at front loading.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:27 PM by Padatoo
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:14 PM
and what makes sb special past rr6 that the NS or inf does not have?

High LA
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:34 AM by phixion
https://i.imgur.com/vh9qPaf.png



7 out of 9 attacks evaded, with a 27-28% evade chance... RNG ftw?
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:40 AM by gruenesschaf
phixion wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:34 AM
https://i.imgur.com/vh9qPaf.png



7 out of 9 attacks evaded, with a 27-28% evade chance... RNG ftw?

If you take the mainhand streak of 5:






https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=streak+of+5+successes+in+100+trials+p%3D0.27
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:46 AM by Riac
maybe i just dont understand how this works, but is trades the number of swings? so in a sequence of 100 swings the chance to miss 5 in a row is a 9.7% chance?
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:55 AM by gruenesschaf
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:46 AM
maybe i just dont understand how this works, but is trades the number of swings? so in a sequence of 100 swings the chance to miss 5 in a row is a 9.7% chance?

Yes. I changed it over to wolfram alpha as I guess some people may or may not want to play around with that too. That's basically what most people really just don't expect and why we try(ied) to curb streaks in the first place. We will likely switch over the defensive rolls in the near future to something that actively reduces streaks again instead of going with just normal rng. Not because it's wrong but just because this is really such a subjective thing that always and on all servers and in all games that use normal rng causes threads.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:20 AM by phixion
Am I incorrect in thinking it's a MH streak of 6?

I see 6 misses on my mainhand alone.

But yeah, this is what I'm talking about when I say my character goes GIMP MODE. It took me a few hours of playing after mentioning it to see it happen again. And it seems to happen far too often.

I'm not going to pretend to know all about the system you use for it, but it doesn't sit right with me--it seems far too punishing at times.

PS: I absolutely love the server and am extremely grateful for having such a place to play. Please don't take my posts the wrong way!
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:09 AM by Warlay
i played daoc especially stealthers all my live and this is totally strange. iit happens really too often @gm
Fri 15 Mar 2019 6:28 AM by Sepplord
Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:09 AM
i played daoc especially stealthers all my live and this is totally strange. iit happens really too often @gm

Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:13 AM by Warlay
what? honestly is this normal for you?
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:24 AM by Sepplord
Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:13 AM
what? honestly is this normal for you?

i am rolling my eyes, because after a dev has already stated multiple times that feelings don't help the discussion, and then went and showed the math regarding a screenshot with a lot of evades, people like you still feel the need to come into the thread with a oneliner about their feelings and memories.
And to top it off you aren't even stating what exactly you are commenting on.

I'll spell it out for you:

There are only two informations in your comment
a) you have played daoc before (irrelevant to the discussion, and exxaggerated by claims like "all my life"

b) there is something that you feel happens too often (it would be hard to think of a sentence more vague than this)
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:34 AM by Warlay
you play hib or what is this toxicity? sry but it isnt right when a brehon ns evade 5 times in a row against a rr6 sb. there you can say what you want it isnt right, also it doesnt help that you are so arrogant, what is your ig name ?
Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:03 AM by Padatoo
Someone is arrogant,call the internet police!
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:03 AM by Sepplord
I won't adress the ad hominems, attack my arguments if you have a point to make. Also a reason why i won't disclose my ingame names. It doesn't matter for the discussion at all.

Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:34 AM
sry but it isnt right when a brehon ns evade 5 times in a row against a rr6 sb

repeating it doesn't make it true, but at least you included a few more infos it is a little bit more specific.
The thing is, gruenesschaf (a gamemaster if you are unfamiliar) has responded just a few comments before yours, showing the math regarding the screenshot that was posted. The chance of such a streak happening in a samplesize of 100 was almost 10%.

You are ignoring facts or are simply ingnorant to their existance, so I will now repeat myself too:

Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:18 AM by Warlay
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:03 AM
I won't adress the ad hominems, attack my arguments if you have a point to make. Also a reason why i won't disclose my ingame names. It doesn't matter for the discussion at all.

Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:34 AM
sry but it isnt right when a brehon ns evade 5 times in a row against a rr6 sb

repeating it doesn't make it true, but at least you included a few more infos it is a little bit more specific.
The thing is, gruenesschaf (a gamemaster if you are unfamiliar) has responded just a few comments before yours, showing the math regarding the screenshot that was posted. The chance of such a streak happening in a samplesize of 100 was almost 10%.

You are ignoring facts or are simply ingnorant to their existance, so I will now repeat myself too:



example: i just fought 3 times in a row against the same ns, rr3
she evaded every fight 5 times in a row and i missed too. After i come in the forum and see you posting such a bs about math. this math proofs you can win in the lottery too? math is really good yes but the reality is different. i See alot of ppl doing a break cause of such thing.

sure it matters im sure you are a hib

edit: btw my comments were responding to phixion cause it seems he has it often too and my post was just behind him. then comes mr sepplord (what a name) and speak like a bullshit to me whereas he just needed to open his eyes. Honestly are you serious?
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:55 AM by Sepplord
Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:18 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:03 AM
I won't adress the ad hominems, attack my arguments if you have a point to make. Also a reason why i won't disclose my ingame names. It doesn't matter for the discussion at all.

Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:34 AM
sry but it isnt right when a brehon ns evade 5 times in a row against a rr6 sb

repeating it doesn't make it true, but at least you included a few more infos it is a little bit more specific.
The thing is, gruenesschaf (a gamemaster if you are unfamiliar) has responded just a few comments before yours, showing the math regarding the screenshot that was posted. The chance of such a streak happening in a samplesize of 100 was almost 10%.

You are ignoring facts or are simply ingnorant to their existance, so I will now repeat myself too:



example: i just fought 3 times in a row against the same ns, rr3
she evaded every fight 5 times in a row and i missed too. After i come in the forum and see you posting such a bs about math. this math proofs you can win in the lottery too? math is really good yes but the reality is different. i See alot of ppl doing a break cause of such thing.

sure it matters im sure you are a hib

observant forum users know which realm i play and who my chars are ^^ (Hint: it's not hib :lol. But it really doesn't matter for the commentchain here (i try to avoid bias, but i am sure that there are comments of mine that are influenced by my personal bias, and from memory those comments are quite anti-hibernia)

What you still fail to understand is that i am not saying there is nothing wrong, i am not saying SBs are fine (quite the contrary). I am saying that comments like yours do not help the discussion, the hurt it.
You are not posting facts, you are not posting evidence. You are literally doing what gruenesschaf explicitly asked you NOT TO DO just a few comments earlier. You are wasting time of the devs that they could use to actually fix the problem. And you are getting on their nerves making them less motivated to keep reading all of ours feedbacks.

If you are a person that doesn't like math or facts, then feel free to live your life that way...but i won't stop calling bulls*** just because you don't believe in math and have no idea how probabilities work.

this math proofs you can win in the lottery too?
Are you implying winning the lottery is impossible?
Or are you implying that a 10% chance is similar to the chance of winning it?


PS: i always assume ignorance before malice, so i explained quite a lot imo. This will be my last comment to you though, unless you provide something substantial to the discussion. In the case that you are simply trolling i guess i have fed you enough
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:58 AM by inoeth
Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:18 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:03 AM
I won't adress the ad hominems, attack my arguments if you have a point to make. Also a reason why i won't disclose my ingame names. It doesn't matter for the discussion at all.

Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:34 AM
sry but it isnt right when a brehon ns evade 5 times in a row against a rr6 sb

repeating it doesn't make it true, but at least you included a few more infos it is a little bit more specific.
The thing is, gruenesschaf (a gamemaster if you are unfamiliar) has responded just a few comments before yours, showing the math regarding the screenshot that was posted. The chance of such a streak happening in a samplesize of 100 was almost 10%.

You are ignoring facts or are simply ingnorant to their existance, so I will now repeat myself too:



example: i just fought 3 times in a row against the same ns, rr3
she evaded every fight 5 times in a row and i missed too. After i come in the forum and see you posting such a bs about math. this math proofs you can win in the lottery too? math is really good yes but the reality is different. i See alot of ppl doing a break cause of such thing.

sure it matters im sure you are a hib

edit: btw my comments were responding to phixion cause it seems he has it often too and my post was just behind him. then comes mr sepplord (what a name) and speak like a bullshit to me whereas he just needed to open his eyes. Honestly are you serious?

im totally with you, yeah math proves things in theory but the reality is different somehow and in all the daoc years is was never that often you either got evaded or you are missing. daoc melee always depended on a bit of luck but here very often you have zero chance because of all the missing/evade. it just feels inconsistent and one sided. ofc it also happens to me that im the lucky one... i remember my heal proc proced 8 times in a row one time, but also this should not happen. i know it is hard to code a good rng, but it is also very essential that it works in a game that heavily relys on it.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 10:08 AM by Warlay
honestly you made it worse with your talking here, when you wouldnt react to my oneliner, the devs wouldnt read now this site of bullshit from us 2, not only me. dont turn the story how you want it. You reacted really stupid to me and await i say nothing anymore. And its really funny i thought you are the troll here who hide his ig identity xD.

thx inoeth
Fri 15 Mar 2019 10:51 AM by florin
What your spec Way?
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:38 PM by Sepplord
Warlay wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 10:08 AM
honestly you made it worse with your talking here, when you wouldnt react to my oneliner, the devs wouldnt read now this site of bullshit from us 2, not only me. dont turn the story how you want it. You reacted really stupid to me and await i say nothing anymore. And its really funny i thought you are the troll here who hide his ig identity xD.

you have a point there, i got annoyed at first, then wanted to explain the annoyance while stressing that the devs need hard data not feelings. In the end i got carried away and we took it too far.
I can assure you that i don't troll and try to be helpful instead of just having pointless arguments. Still working on that latter part though
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:40 PM by Moumoule
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:40 AM
phixion wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:34 AM
https://i.imgur.com/vh9qPaf.png



7 out of 9 attacks evaded, with a 27-28% evade chance... RNG ftw?

If you take the mainhand streak of 5:






https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=streak+of+5+successes+in+100+trials+p%3D0.27

You also assume 100 hits on the same target (with 27 % evade).

So when hitting this target 100 times, there is a 9.6 % probability that you get evaded 5 times in a row. Small chance, but can happen. The screen of Phixion shows 6 MH evades, so a 2.6 % probability.

But the problem with your calc is following: you never hit 100 times the same target. How many hits does it take to kill the oppenent (case: Phixion SB vs Lady Infiltrator). I would say, between 10 and 20 hits (miss, procs, heals, ...):

- Streak of 10 hits: 0.151869 % probability
- Streak of 20 hits: 0.434374 % probability

I don't know the number of people Phixion fight against every day/night with a ~27 % evade rate but if look at the last 48 hours (161 solo kills, let's assume 1/3 of NS/Infiltrator, so let's say 53), at this rate, 6 "MH" evades in a row vs a NS/Infiltrator happen (statistically probable) once every 9-25 days.

Thing is, we need to make a lot of assumptions ;-)
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:07 PM by gruenesschaf
On the other hand you would kind of have to stop the count of a streak on each offhand hit already too as both are completely independent checks and hence each weapon attack would be its own "trial" / dice roll. That's different from misses / anything that's currently not using straight up normal rng as anything that depends on previous results separates main and offhand (or in case of procs tracks the failure streak for each individual proc / piece of equipment).
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:49 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:29 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:19 PM
i'd say its a bit more than a poor match up, its a blow out.
i don't mind it being not equal, but it should at least be competitive. 20% spread in dmg is just huge.
there is next to no incentive for them to spec pierce over blade (the ws skill argument seems pretty weak to me) i seem to have more trouble hitting them then they have hitting me (im aware thats my opinion)

I believe you're embellishing again. It is competitive, is it not?

Why would an increase in weapon skill not be considered an advantage? Why is there no incentive for them to spec thrust?

At equal RR and fully buffed/templated a SB vs NS encounter would statistically favor the night shade. That doesn't mean the shadow blade has no chance of beating them. I don't run out in FZ and see night shades just auto-killing shadow blades on a whim and I'm sure assuming such is an insult to the shadow blades here that take pride in their capabilities on the class.

You have a natural disadvantage against night shades. Does that not make it far more rewarding when you beat them? Instead of sitting on the forums trying to nit pick each individual difference just accept the fact that that disadvantage is there and enjoy the moments when you succeed against it..

its not competitive, phixion has even said he relys totally on his RR to beat these guys. that would imply something is bit less than fair. also how many ppl have to chime in with experiences that seem to be quite similar?

there is no incentive to spec thrust because you can go blade and kill ppl MUCH easier, seems like a hell of an incentive to not spec thrust. i think the proof is in the pudding for this one. how many pierce shades have yall seen running around out here?

and as far as an insult to the SB community, i think ppl like you are far more insulting then me saying SB is weak. you come in here and say all of our experiences are invalid for one reason or another when you dont even play a stealther. even the gm has recognized it as being unfair.

and as far as it being rewarding when you win lol id rather just not get shit on 9 times out of 10 (go ahead and say im embellishing, its an exaggeration but probably not by much lol, sorry i havent been keeping a running tally in my stealther fights)

since my matchup vs NS has a natural disadvantage.... what match up does NS have a natural disadvantage in?

I have nothing against you bud, but this whole response is just QQ.

I've stated numerous times that giving shadow blades an off evade stun would be perfectly reasonable.

There are so many factors that go into 1v1 fights (template, skill, timing, combat chains, timers, RNGesus), yet this entire thread is focused solely on the armor variance between NS' leather and slash.

You make it sound like every shadow blade in the game should just /sit when they encounter a night shade. It's preposterous.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by jelzinga_EU
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:49 PM
I have nothing against you bud, but this whole response is just QQ.

I've stated numerous times that giving shadow blades an off evade stun would be perfectly reasonable.

There are so many factors that go into 1v1 fights (template, skill, timing, combat chains, timers, RNGesus), yet this entire thread is focused solely on the armor variance between NS' leather and slash.

You make it sound like every shadow blade in the game should just /sit when they encounter a night shade. It's preposterous.

The entire discussion is obviously about assuming equal templates and equal buffs. Assassins do not have timers which matter. Obviously RNG and skill-discrepancies between players are not something we can control, but having more skill/better reflexes doesn't make your Hamstring suddenly hit 20% harder. Yes, there is something as RNG but the difference is that the RNG can be favourable to either of the opponents.

Currently a Blade-NS has a 20% advantage to a SB just by armour and that difference is enormous compared to other factors we have any influence on. Since the classes share 3 lines (Stealth, Envenom and CS) they are so comparable to each other (much more than any other class). The differences revolve around the major differences between the classes (LA, Armour and Stun-opportunities)

People often say assassins cry about it the most - but people often forget that is because the classes are so comparable. You play a mercenary - if you compare that to a zerk you will notice the only thing you share is Parry-spec. So obviously while the classes are both light-tanks it is much harder to compare them.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:33 PM by Amp_Phetamine
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:41 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:49 PM
I have nothing against you bud, but this whole response is just QQ.

I've stated numerous times that giving shadow blades an off evade stun would be perfectly reasonable.

There are so many factors that go into 1v1 fights (template, skill, timing, combat chains, timers, RNGesus), yet this entire thread is focused solely on the armor variance between NS' leather and slash.

You make it sound like every shadow blade in the game should just /sit when they encounter a night shade. It's preposterous.

The entire discussion is obviously about assuming equal templates and equal buffs. Assassins do not have timers which matter. Obviously RNG and skill-discrepancies between players are not something we can control, but having more skill/better reflexes doesn't make your Hamstring suddenly hit 20% harder. Yes, there is something as RNG but the difference is that the RNG can be favourable to either of the opponents.

Currently a Blade-NS has a 20% advantage to a SB just by armour and that difference is enormous compared to other factors we have any influence on. Since the classes share 3 lines (Stealth, Envenom and CS) they are so comparable to each other (much more than any other class). The differences revolve around the major differences between the classes (LA, Armour and Stun-opportunities)

People often say assassins cry about it the most - but people often forget that is because the classes are so comparable. You play a mercenary - if you compare that to a zerk you will notice the only thing you share is Parry-spec. So obviously while the classes are both light-tanks it is much harder to compare them.

I agree with the majority of your post; aside from "...assuming equal templates and buffs". In fact the majority of poster's claiming they continually get destroyed by NS' and Infil's, get randomly high evade streaks against them, are out damaged by 40+ points of dps, have yet to verify their template, their buffs, their opponents templates, or their opponents buffs.

Once again, I'll state that shadow blades are at an inherent disadvantage. But it is nowhere near as apocalyptic as it is being portrayed.

The left axe combat line should earn an off evade stun. I am not against this. But what I am against is the plethora of changes that are being suggested simply to bridge the damage variance gap between NS' leather and shadowblades slash.

Is there a disadvantage? Yes. Is it game breaking? No.

That's the point that others and the GM is trying to make; there are nearly 30 pages of post's here with maybe 3-4 pages of worthwhile discussion.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:16 PM by jelzinga_EU
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
I agree with the majority of your post; aside from "...assuming equal templates and buffs". In fact the majority of poster's claiming they continually get destroyed by NS' and Infil's, get randomly high evade streaks against them, are out damaged by 40+ points of dps, have yet to verify their template, their buffs, their opponents templates, or their opponents buffs.

Once again, I'll state that shadow blades are at an inherent disadvantage. But it is nowhere near as apocalyptic as it is being portrayed.

The left axe combat line should earn an off evade stun. I am not against this. But what I am against is the plethora of changes that are being suggested simply to bridge the damage variance gap between NS' leather and shadowblades slash.

Is there a disadvantage? Yes. Is it game breaking? No.

That's the point that others and the GM is trying to make; there are nearly 30 pages of post's here with maybe 3-4 pages of worthwhile discussion.

The good thing about Phoenix is that you don't need a million /use items, artifacts and what not so any serious assassin has a template by now with no weaknesses and such. It goes without saying that "we" got our templates sorted. We got our charges sorted, we got our pots sorted, trust me.

With all that in mind, whenever I hit a properly templated Blade-NS I see 26% slash resists + (if Elf 2% racial) + 10% from armour ===> 36 or 38% resists. He will see me as 26% slash resists + 3% racial (Norse) - 10% from armour = 19% resists. Those are facts and impossible to argue about.

What you can argue about is the fact that difference is enough to be game-breaking imbalanced if we take all other stuff into consideration. Lots of points can be brought up, inferiour/superiour Left-Axe mechanics, dmg-shield penalizing LA-users, increased HP, insta DD-shout, more favourable races, style-choices, possible specs and weapon-damage-types and such. Some valid, others not so much (or to a much lesser extent).

However, there is no doubt in my mind that the largest single imbalance in such an encounter is due to armour-differences. In the beta, it was obvious that Dragonfang and Diamondback (and CB/FG for LA) would be important as Purge had a 30 mins CD. However, with the change to NF RA's (shorter CD on Purge) and the Style-revamps this has shifted the meta, especially for NS who where given an off-evade stun in Blades.

In a game where balanced is sought it makes sense to start investigating the single largest imbalance in such match-ups. On live this was done by the introduction of Bludgeon and Legendary Weapons. That is how this topic started out, originally.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:18 PM by Sepplord
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:41 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:49 PM
I have nothing against you bud, but this whole response is just QQ.

I've stated numerous times that giving shadow blades an off evade stun would be perfectly reasonable.

There are so many factors that go into 1v1 fights (template, skill, timing, combat chains, timers, RNGesus), yet this entire thread is focused solely on the armor variance between NS' leather and slash.

You make it sound like every shadow blade in the game should just /sit when they encounter a night shade. It's preposterous.

The entire discussion is obviously about assuming equal templates and equal buffs. Assassins do not have timers which matter. Obviously RNG and skill-discrepancies between players are not something we can control, but having more skill/better reflexes doesn't make your Hamstring suddenly hit 20% harder. Yes, there is something as RNG but the difference is that the RNG can be favourable to either of the opponents.

Currently a Blade-NS has a 20% advantage to a SB just by armour and that difference is enormous compared to other factors we have any influence on. Since the classes share 3 lines (Stealth, Envenom and CS) they are so comparable to each other (much more than any other class). The differences revolve around the major differences between the classes (LA, Armour and Stun-opportunities)

People often say assassins cry about it the most - but people often forget that is because the classes are so comparable. You play a mercenary - if you compare that to a zerk you will notice the only thing you share is Parry-spec. So obviously while the classes are both light-tanks it is much harder to compare them.

I agree with the majority of your post; aside from "...assuming equal templates and buffs". In fact the majority of poster's claiming they continually get destroyed by NS' and Infil's, get randomly high evade streaks against them, are out damaged by 40+ points of dps, have yet to verify their template, their buffs, their opponents templates, or their opponents buffs.

Once again, I'll state that shadow blades are at an inherent disadvantage. But it is nowhere near as apocalyptic as it is being portrayed.

The left axe combat line should earn an off evade stun. I am not against this. But what I am against is the plethora of changes that are being suggested simply to bridge the damage variance gap between NS' leather and shadowblades slash.

Is there a disadvantage? Yes. Is it game breaking? No.

That's the point that others and the GM is trying to make; there are nearly 30 pages of post's here with maybe 3-4 pages of worthwhile discussion.

How is a 20% dmg difference not a big thing? And gruenesschaf has confirmed that he believes that is problematic and is thinking about ways to even out that disadvantage.

What he disagrees on are that there is something wrong with evade-streaks or rng-streaks in General.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:41 PM by dante`afk
so, off evade stun for sbs and equalize leather tables among assassins.

let's go.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:47 PM by Amp_Phetamine
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:16 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
I agree with the majority of your post; aside from "...assuming equal templates and buffs". In fact the majority of poster's claiming they continually get destroyed by NS' and Infil's, get randomly high evade streaks against them, are out damaged by 40+ points of dps, have yet to verify their template, their buffs, their opponents templates, or their opponents buffs.

Once again, I'll state that shadow blades are at an inherent disadvantage. But it is nowhere near as apocalyptic as it is being portrayed.

The left axe combat line should earn an off evade stun. I am not against this. But what I am against is the plethora of changes that are being suggested simply to bridge the damage variance gap between NS' leather and shadowblades slash.

Is there a disadvantage? Yes. Is it game breaking? No.

That's the point that others and the GM is trying to make; there are nearly 30 pages of post's here with maybe 3-4 pages of worthwhile discussion.

The good thing about Phoenix is that you don't need a million /use items, artifacts and what not so any serious assassin has a template by now with no weaknesses and such. It goes without saying that "we" got our templates sorted. We got our charges sorted, we got our pots sorted, trust me.

With all that in mind, whenever I hit a properly templated Blade-NS I see 26% slash resists + (if Elf 2% racial) + 10% from armour ===> 36 or 38% resists. He will see me as 26% slash resists + 3% racial (Norse) - 10% from armour = 19% resists. Those are facts and impossible to argue about.

What you can argue about is the fact that difference is enough to be game-breaking imbalanced if we take all other stuff into consideration. Lots of points can be brought up, inferiour/superiour Left-Axe mechanics, dmg-shield penalizing LA-users, increased HP, insta DD-shout, more favourable races, style-choices, possible specs and weapon-damage-types and such. Some valid, others not so much (or to a much lesser extent).

However, there is no doubt in my mind that the largest single imbalance in such an encounter is due to armour-differences. In the beta, it was obvious that Dragonfang and Diamondback (and CB/FG for LA) would be important as Purge had a 30 mins CD. However, with the change to NF RA's (shorter CD on Purge) and the Style-revamps this has shifted the meta, especially for NS who where given an off-evade stun in Blades.

In a game where balanced is sought it makes sense to start investigating the single largest imbalance in such match-ups. On live this was done by the introduction of Bludgeon and Legendary Weapons. That is how this topic started out, originally.

I respect your opinion and appreciate the manner in which you present your opinion, it's logical and makes sense.

My biggest fear is what can be done regarding an internal archtype balance between, primarily, night shade (hibernian) leather and midgard slash that wouldn't result in a large scale overhaul.

Simply adding Bludgeon will work against the NS; however, now they also have vulnerable damage type against Armsman, Paladins, Infiltrator, Friars, Blademasters, Bards, Rangers and Nightshades.

So you add the ability to compensate for discrepancies against 1 class but now have 7 other classes to re-account for.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:49 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:18 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:41 PM
The entire discussion is obviously about assuming equal templates and equal buffs. Assassins do not have timers which matter. Obviously RNG and skill-discrepancies between players are not something we can control, but having more skill/better reflexes doesn't make your Hamstring suddenly hit 20% harder. Yes, there is something as RNG but the difference is that the RNG can be favourable to either of the opponents.

Currently a Blade-NS has a 20% advantage to a SB just by armour and that difference is enormous compared to other factors we have any influence on. Since the classes share 3 lines (Stealth, Envenom and CS) they are so comparable to each other (much more than any other class). The differences revolve around the major differences between the classes (LA, Armour and Stun-opportunities)

People often say assassins cry about it the most - but people often forget that is because the classes are so comparable. You play a mercenary - if you compare that to a zerk you will notice the only thing you share is Parry-spec. So obviously while the classes are both light-tanks it is much harder to compare them.

I agree with the majority of your post; aside from "...assuming equal templates and buffs". In fact the majority of poster's claiming they continually get destroyed by NS' and Infil's, get randomly high evade streaks against them, are out damaged by 40+ points of dps, have yet to verify their template, their buffs, their opponents templates, or their opponents buffs.

Once again, I'll state that shadow blades are at an inherent disadvantage. But it is nowhere near as apocalyptic as it is being portrayed.

The left axe combat line should earn an off evade stun. I am not against this. But what I am against is the plethora of changes that are being suggested simply to bridge the damage variance gap between NS' leather and shadowblades slash.

Is there a disadvantage? Yes. Is it game breaking? No.

That's the point that others and the GM is trying to make; there are nearly 30 pages of post's here with maybe 3-4 pages of worthwhile discussion.

How is a 20% dmg difference not a big thing? And gruenesschaf has confirmed that he believes that is problematic and is thinking about ways to even out that disadvantage.

What he disagrees on are that there is something wrong with evade-streaks or rng-streaks in General.

Never once said it isn't "..a big thing". In fact, I clearly, multiple times, stated SB's are at a disadvantage.

What I did state was that the differential was not "apocalyptic nor game breaking".
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:35 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:49 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:29 PM

its not competitive, phixion has even said he relys totally on his RR to beat these guys. that would imply something is bit less than fair. also how many ppl have to chime in with experiences that seem to be quite similar?

there is no incentive to spec thrust because you can go blade and kill ppl MUCH easier, seems like a hell of an incentive to not spec thrust. i think the proof is in the pudding for this one. how many pierce shades have yall seen running around out here?

and as far as an insult to the SB community, i think ppl like you are far more insulting then me saying SB is weak. you come in here and say all of our experiences are invalid for one reason or another when you dont even play a stealther. even the gm has recognized it as being unfair.

and as far as it being rewarding when you win lol id rather just not get shit on 9 times out of 10 (go ahead and say im embellishing, its an exaggeration but probably not by much lol, sorry i havent been keeping a running tally in my stealther fights)

since my matchup vs NS has a natural disadvantage.... what match up does NS have a natural disadvantage in?

I have nothing against you bud, but this whole response is just QQ.

I've stated numerous times that giving shadow blades an off evade stun would be perfectly reasonable.

There are so many factors that go into 1v1 fights (template, skill, timing, combat chains, timers, RNGesus), yet this entire thread is focused solely on the armor variance between NS' leather and slash.

You make it sound like every shadow blade in the game should just /sit when they encounter a night shade. It's preposterous.

if youll notice in my post i didnt even bring up the lack of evade stun, so im not sure why you brought that up and tbh idc about the no stun as much as the 20% spread in damage. its absurd.

since you glossed over the remark about the pierce shades, id say that point still holds.

as far as the temp and pots go... do you think id be on here bitching if i could just simply get another charge and start stomping dudes? no, i'm temped and run all the appropriate charges (as i mentioned earlier in the thread). i know its hard to keep up w/ all this but most every serious stealther player is temped and running pots / charges.

I'm sure most of the serious sb can stomp the random rr2 NS who is just making it out to the frontiers and trying to figure out what is going on. the real problem is when we encounter the other serious players that are also temped and potted, like us, with as much rr. those fights generally go very poorly.

20% dmg spread is too much.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:37 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:49 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:18 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
What I did state was that the differential was not "apocalyptic nor game breaking".

no offense but considering you dont play a SB, or any stealther for that matter, how would you know?
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:47 PM by Horus
I think the core issue is the whole armor "vulnerable vs neutral vs resistant" formula in general vs diff dmg types. To me it seems like too great of a factor. The difference between hitting a particular armor with a dmg type it is "resistant" to vs hitting with a dmg type it is "vulnerable" to is huge...too huge in my opinion. Sure, there should be a little bit of difference but not as great as exists here. Not sure if it has always been that way but it sure seems more noticeable to me here.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:51 PM by Riac
Horus wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:47 PM
I think the core issue is the whole armor "vulnerable vs neutral vs resistant" formula in general vs diff dmg types. To me it seems like too great of a factor. The difference between hitting a particular armor with a dmg type it is "resistant" to vs hitting with a dmg type it is "vulnerable" to is huge...too huge in my opinion. Sure, there should be a little bit of difference but not as great as exists here. Not sure if it has always been that way but it sure seems more noticeable to me here.

^^ this, and armor vulnerability is probably a good idea when focused around 8 man fights, but in a 1v1 or stealth group fight sort of scenerio 20% spread is WAY to huge. the simple solution to all of this is just make mid leather crush vulnerable like the other 2 realms. (our peers)

considering mid has no other leather users this will be unique to sbs only, should have very little cross over effect.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 6:36 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:37 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:49 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:18 PM
no offense but considering you dont play a SB, or any stealther for that matter, how would you know?

Not that it matters but I've played this game for 16 years. I've played every single class in the game, multiple times. The classic deflection of "Oh, you don't play the class so your opinion doesn't matter" is a horrifically immature attempt to dismiss an opinion.

So to paraphrase, I have played the class, every class for that matter, and irregardless of my toons on Phoenix the fact is I've played them as well as against them.

Other then that my opinion is an opinion.

Riac I'm not so much dismissing your "arguments" - I put that in quotation because your paragraphs are more a compilation of complaints rather than statements - more so I'm dismissing your emotional investment in the class.

You're so tunnel visioned into shadow blades that you wouldn't know class imbalance if it smacked you in the face.

The only thing you want, and what you want others to agree with, is some manner in which to make shadow blades the strongest of the 3 assassins, by whatever means necessary.

That is why I dismiss most of what you have to type.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 6:38 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:51 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:47 PM
I think the core issue is the whole armor "vulnerable vs neutral vs resistant" formula in general vs diff dmg types. To me it seems like too great of a factor. The difference between hitting a particular armor with a dmg type it is "resistant" to vs hitting with a dmg type it is "vulnerable" to is huge...too huge in my opinion. Sure, there should be a little bit of difference but not as great as exists here. Not sure if it has always been that way but it sure seems more noticeable to me here.

^^ this, and armor vulnerability is probably a good idea when focused around 8 man fights, but in a 1v1 or stealth group fight sort of scenerio 20% spread is WAY to huge. the simple solution to all of this is just make mid leather crush vulnerable like the other 2 realms. (our peers)

considering mid has no other leather users this will be unique to sbs only, should have very little cross over effect.

Pretty sure Live DAoC reduced the variance to 5%+/-
Fri 15 Mar 2019 6:45 PM by Sepplord
i think you messed up some formatting a comment further up, Could you check that, i think you are misquoting
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:00 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 6:36 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:37 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:49 PM
Not that it matters but I've played this game for 16 years. I've played every single class in the game, multiple times. The classic deflection of "Oh, you don't play the class so your opinion doesn't matter" is a horrifically immature attempt to dismiss an opinion.

So to paraphrase, I have played the class, every class for that matter, and irregardless of my toons on Phoenix the fact is I've played them as well as against them.

Other then that my opinion is an opinion.

Riac I'm not so much dismissing your "arguments" - I put that in quotation because your paragraphs are more a compilation of complaints rather than statements - more so I'm dismissing your emotional investment in the class.

You're so tunnel visioned into shadow blades that you wouldn't know class imbalance if it smacked you in the face.

The only thing you want, and what you want others to agree with, is some manner in which to make shadow blades the strongest of the 3 assassins, by whatever means necessary.

That is why I dismiss most of what you have to type.

considering this isnt live i'd say your experiences on live don't carry over too well. thats atleast what is being told to the other sbs that have played this class on live and other servers for multiple years and saying over here is not quite right in one way or another.

why are you even in this forum? you dont play a stealther at all.... you have no bearing on how things are playing out in the game....
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:22 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:00 PM
why are you even in this forum? you dont play a stealther at all.... you have no bearing on how things are playing out in the game....

Maybe you should step off others a bit just because they aren't currently or don't main a stealther.. You probably have opinions about other classes or past experience with them.. I know it annoyed me when you tried saying my opinions were invalid because I am not currently maining a SB. Though I have been playing DAoC and studying the mechanics of the game since 2005...
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:29 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:22 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:00 PM
why are you even in this forum? you dont play a stealther at all.... you have no bearing on how things are playing out in the game....

Maybe you should step off others a bit just because they aren't currently or don't main a stealther.. You probably have opinions about other classes or past experience with them.. I know it annoyed me when you tried saying my opinions were invalid because I am not currently maining a SB. Though I have been playing DAoC and studying the mechanics of the game since 2005...

why should i step off them when they say me or other sb players dont know what they are talking about and being emotional when they dont even play a stealther here to begin with? esp when those very same ppl will tell me that idk what im talking about even though i do play an sb here.

in your vast studies of the game you must noticed the differences here and on live id assume? so for you to make assumptions based on live and translate it to here and call ppl wrong even thuogh they have EXPERIENCED otherwise seems a bit ridiculous.... perhaps it is you that should step off.

do i go to the other classes forums and say what i think based on info that is over 10 years old while not even playing that class and having no idea what the ACTUAL reality is on the ground? nope, because i have no idea what is actually going on with their class on this server.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:33 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:29 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:22 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:00 PM
why are you even in this forum? you dont play a stealther at all.... you have no bearing on how things are playing out in the game....

Maybe you should step off others a bit just because they aren't currently or don't main a stealther.. You probably have opinions about other classes or past experience with them.. I know it annoyed me when you tried saying my opinions were invalid because I am not currently maining a SB. Though I have been playing DAoC and studying the mechanics of the game since 2005...

why should i step off them when they say me or other sb players dont know what they are talking about and being emotional when they dont even play a stealther here to begin with? esp when those very same ppl will tell me that idk what im talking about even though i do play an sb here.

in your vast studies of the game you must noticed the differences here and on live id assume? so for you to make assumptions based on live and translate it to here and call ppl wrong even thuogh they have EXPERIENCED otherwise seems a bit ridiculous.... perhaps it is you that should step off.

do i go to the other classes forums and say what i think based on info that is over 10 years old while not even playing that class and having no idea what the ACTUAL reality is on the ground? nope, because i have no idea what is actually going on with their class on this server.

Because you're too emotionally invested.

Edit: Alright bud, here is the issue. You are so mentally invested on the concept that shadow blades have an inherent resistance disadvantage against night shades that you're literally trying to force feed this repeated statement to every single person in this thread.

Every single person in this thread acknowledges the armor resistance discrepancy.

No one is saying you're incorrect and that shadow blades are the superior assassin.

What is being said; however, is you're offering absolutely nothing reasonable other than non descriptive statements that revolve around the desire for shadow blades to become the elite assassin.

Anyone that even remotely makes a comment that differs from your absolute opinion is perceived to be someone lacking knowledge or experience with the shadow blade class because, in your mind, every single person playing the shadow blade should be of the same mentality as you.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:38 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:33 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:29 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:22 PM
Maybe you should step off others a bit just because they aren't currently or don't main a stealther.. You probably have opinions about other classes or past experience with them.. I know it annoyed me when you tried saying my opinions were invalid because I am not currently maining a SB. Though I have been playing DAoC and studying the mechanics of the game since 2005...

why should i step off them when they say me or other sb players dont know what they are talking about and being emotional when they dont even play a stealther here to begin with? esp when those very same ppl will tell me that idk what im talking about even though i do play an sb here.

in your vast studies of the game you must noticed the differences here and on live id assume? so for you to make assumptions based on live and translate it to here and call ppl wrong even thuogh they have EXPERIENCED otherwise seems a bit ridiculous.... perhaps it is you that should step off.

do i go to the other classes forums and say what i think based on info that is over 10 years old while not even playing that class and having no idea what the ACTUAL reality is on the ground? nope, because i have no idea what is actually going on with their class on this server.

Because you're too emotionally invested.

youre right 20% spread is me pointing out flaws with my emotions. ty bradekes and amphetamine for glossing past the points that are too hard to rebut and just claiming everyone is emotional or just wrong. i dont think there is a single stealther fight between the both of you yet you think you know how the matchups play out, therefore you know the truth.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:39 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:38 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:33 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:29 PM
why should i step off them when they say me or other sb players dont know what they are talking about and being emotional when they dont even play a stealther here to begin with? esp when those very same ppl will tell me that idk what im talking about even though i do play an sb here.

in your vast studies of the game you must noticed the differences here and on live id assume? so for you to make assumptions based on live and translate it to here and call ppl wrong even thuogh they have EXPERIENCED otherwise seems a bit ridiculous.... perhaps it is you that should step off.

do i go to the other classes forums and say what i think based on info that is over 10 years old while not even playing that class and having no idea what the ACTUAL reality is on the ground? nope, because i have no idea what is actually going on with their class on this server.

Because you're too emotionally invested.

youre right 20% spread is me pointing out flaws with my emotions. ty bradekes and amphetamine for glossing past the points that are too hard to rebut and just claiming everyone is emotional or just wrong. i dont think there is a single stealther fight between the both of you yet you think you know how the matchups play out, therefore you know the truth.

re-read my edit.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:43 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:38 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:33 PM
Because you're too emotionally invested.

youre right 20% spread is me pointing out flaws with my emotions. ty bradekes and amphetamine for glossing past the points that are too hard to rebut and just claiming everyone is emotional or just wrong. i dont think there is a single stealther fight between the both of you yet you think you know how the matchups play out, therefore you know the truth.

re-read my edit.

is making mid leather crush vulnerable like all other leathers not reasonable? i even said idc if we are jsut neutral to slash and thrust, i even said idc about not having an off evade stun... i just want to be no vuln to slash... feels pretty reasonable to me.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:56 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:38 PM
youre right 20% spread is me pointing out flaws with my emotions. ty bradekes and amphetamine for glossing past the points that are too hard to rebut and just claiming everyone is emotional or just wrong. i dont think there is a single stealther fight between the both of you yet you think you know how the matchups play out, therefore you know the truth.

re-read my edit.

is making mid leather crush vulnerable like all other leathers not reasonable? i even said idc if we are jsut neutral to slash and thrust, i even said idc about not having an off evade stun... i just want to be no vuln to slash... feels pretty reasonable to me.

That'd be reasonable in theory to alter mid leather to be slash neutral and crush vulnerable. Not sure how difficult it'd be to implement.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:58 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:56 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
re-read my edit.

is making mid leather crush vulnerable like all other leathers not reasonable? i even said idc if we are jsut neutral to slash and thrust, i even said idc about not having an off evade stun... i just want to be no vuln to slash... feels pretty reasonable to me.

That'd be reasonable in theory to alter mid leather to be slash neutral and crush vulnerable. Not sure how difficult it'd be to implement.

pretty sure the gm commented on this as being a possible solution. i'm assuming since its a possible solution it wouldnt be that hard. however, im not a programmer and have no idea what capabilities these guys have over the game, but i assume they have a lot.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:42 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
is making mid leather crush vulnerable like all other leathers not reasonable? i even said idc if we are jsut neutral to slash and thrust, i even said idc about not having an off evade stun... i just want to be no vuln to slash... feels pretty reasonable to me.

When this is the issue and you're telling everyone off this is what I'm talking about.. This simple idea has not been rebutted.. So it has nothing to do with what class or where someone's experience stems from as all mid armor is crush nuetral as each realm follows a pattern...

IMO it would be better just to make all leather neutral like cloth is or just remove all armor base resistance as it kinda is a silly idea to begin with as no other game has had this mechanic...
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:47 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:42 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
is making mid leather crush vulnerable like all other leathers not reasonable? i even said idc if we are jsut neutral to slash and thrust, i even said idc about not having an off evade stun... i just want to be no vuln to slash... feels pretty reasonable to me.

When this is the issue and you're telling everyone off this is what I'm talking about.. This simple idea has not been rebutted.. So it has nothing to do with what class or where someone's experience stems from as all mid armor is crush nuetral as each realm follows a pattern...

IMO it would be better just to make all leather neutral like cloth is or just remove all armor base resistance as it kinda is a silly idea to begin with as no other game has had this mechanic...

amen
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:49 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:42 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
is making mid leather crush vulnerable like all other leathers not reasonable? i even said idc if we are jsut neutral to slash and thrust, i even said idc about not having an off evade stun... i just want to be no vuln to slash... feels pretty reasonable to me.

When this is the issue and you're telling everyone off this is what I'm talking about.. This simple idea has not been rebutted.. So it has nothing to do with what class or where someone's experience stems from as all mid armor is crush nuetral as each realm follows a pattern...

IMO it would be better just to make all leather neutral like cloth is or just remove all armor base resistance as it kinda is a silly idea to begin with as no other game has had this mechanic...

bradekes, peraphs you should reread the forum. ppl are aware this is the issue.
but i do agree, simple abs is good enough but i feel like itd jsut be more likely of a change they move sb leather vuln to crush.... thats good enough for me

also the reason i was telling him off is because he was making accusations, maybe you missed taht.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:00 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:49 PM
bradekes, peraphs you should reread the forum.

I reread and I still didn't see any real valid testing or screenshots that weren't debunked.. Or where you actually brought anything to the table that was your idea or your own research...

I do see where you have tried to disrupt any post from anyone that doesn't favor your opinion even if that post comes with hard data..

Also you've continued to try to discredit peoples opinions that have played SB on the live version of the game, mine included, as being invalid.. So sorry if I don't agree with your methods and maybe will give others the benefit of the doubt vs your own opinions...
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:33 PM by keen
I posted this already, but what about making just one archer and one assassin class so all of them are mirrored. ATM they are same same but different. Stealther game play is focused on 1v1 anyway and with this change there would be no discrepancies anymore. Just need to strip stealth from minstrels the same time, I never understood why they got stealth in the first place anyway.
Would be a bold move, but for me that would make a lot of sense and would shut down all these endless discussions, where noone can be pleased.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 12:21 AM by florin
Does the fact that having /switch in the game change anything? Ie there is a lot of going in and out of combat for spamming poisons with double frost. Does that mess with the rng? Does it reset the streak detection?
Sat 16 Mar 2019 12:23 AM by Joc
keen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:33 PM
I posted this already, but what about making just one archer and one assassin class so all of them are mirrored. ATM they are same same but different. Stealther game play is focused on 1v1 anyway and with this change there would be no discrepancies anymore. Just need to strip stealth from minstrels the same time, I never understood why they got stealth in the first place anyway.
Would be a bold move, but for me that would make a lot of sense and would shut down all these endless discussions, where noone can be pleased.

I doubt something like taking stealth away from minstrel would happen. Its a major part of playstlye for many. I like that there are differences between the classes. The armor table differences being better balanced would be a good move I suppose.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:00 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:49 PM
bradekes, peraphs you should reread the forum.

I reread and I still didn't see any real valid testing or screenshots that weren't debunked.. Or where you actually brought anything to the table that was your idea or your own research...

I do see where you have tried to disrupt any post from anyone that doesn't favor your opinion even if that post comes with hard data..

Also you've continued to try to discredit peoples opinions that have played SB on the live version of the game, mine included, as being invalid.. So sorry if I don't agree with your methods and maybe will give others the benefit of the doubt vs your own opinions...

I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.

I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.

I'd say SB could use a little love.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:54 AM by Riac
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:00 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:49 PM
bradekes, peraphs you should reread the forum.

I reread and I still didn't see any real valid testing or screenshots that weren't debunked.. Or where you actually brought anything to the table that was your idea or your own research...

I do see where you have tried to disrupt any post from anyone that doesn't favor your opinion even if that post comes with hard data..

Also you've continued to try to discredit peoples opinions that have played SB on the live version of the game, mine included, as being invalid.. So sorry if I don't agree with your methods and maybe will give others the benefit of the doubt vs your own opinions...

I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.

I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.

I'd say SB could use a little love.

bradekes has played an sb on live and has studied the game for years, your experience is invalid.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:28 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:00 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:49 PM
bradekes, peraphs you should reread the forum.

I reread and I still didn't see any real valid testing or screenshots that weren't debunked.. Or where you actually brought anything to the table that was your idea or your own research...

I do see where you have tried to disrupt any post from anyone that doesn't favor your opinion even if that post comes with hard data..

Also you've continued to try to discredit peoples opinions that have played SB on the live version of the game, mine included, as being invalid.. So sorry if I don't agree with your methods and maybe will give others the benefit of the doubt vs your own opinions...

I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.

I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.

I'd say SB could use a little love.

Sounds like you're about 2 points in LA spec.. But i never said SB didn't need help but it's not near as much as some make it out to be...
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:35 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:28 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:00 PM
I reread and I still didn't see any real valid testing or screenshots that weren't debunked.. Or where you actually brought anything to the table that was your idea or your own research...

I do see where you have tried to disrupt any post from anyone that doesn't favor your opinion even if that post comes with hard data..

Also you've continued to try to discredit peoples opinions that have played SB on the live version of the game, mine included, as being invalid.. So sorry if I don't agree with your methods and maybe will give others the benefit of the doubt vs your own opinions...

I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.

I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.

I'd say SB could use a little love.

Sounds like you're about 2 points in LA spec.. But i never said SB didn't need help but it's not near as much as some make it out to be...

if i cared that much id look back and quote you were you said there is no proof that sb needs any buffs. but you def said they didnt need buffs
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:59 AM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:35 AM
if i cared that much id look back and quote you were you said there is no proof that sb needs any buffs. but you def said they didnt need buffs

They don't need buffs... Not directly... Armor table changes tweaks or weapon damage types doesn't warrant a buff for the class but maybe a tweak to the system..
Sat 16 Mar 2019 3:28 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:28 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:00 PM
I reread and I still didn't see any real valid testing or screenshots that weren't debunked.. Or where you actually brought anything to the table that was your idea or your own research...

I do see where you have tried to disrupt any post from anyone that doesn't favor your opinion even if that post comes with hard data..

Also you've continued to try to discredit peoples opinions that have played SB on the live version of the game, mine included, as being invalid.. So sorry if I don't agree with your methods and maybe will give others the benefit of the doubt vs your own opinions...

I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.

I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.

I'd say SB could use a little love.

Sounds like you're about 2 points in LA spec.. But i never said SB didn't need help but it's not near as much as some make it out to be...

im actually 21 LA spec atm with 44 CS. And i hit harder than i did at 50 LA spec which isn't exactly saying a lot. /ponder on that one
Sat 16 Mar 2019 4:58 AM by keen
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.
I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.
I'd say SB could use a little love.
Screenshot or chatlog please. Sounds to me like you hit into a mhb, even then 34dmg sound really low. What's the offhand speed?
Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:44 AM by lourock
This entire thread is cancer and an abomination some of the suggestions in here are game breaking and go against the spirit of DaoC. Stealthers will be the death of this server if their constant cries for attention keep being pacified. I feel like they are playing a total aggro game of Civilization where they are the hyper aggressive leader constantly asking you to become their vassal state and resources.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:48 AM by Riac
lourock wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:44 AM
This entire thread is cancer and an abomination some of the suggestions in here are game breaking and go against the spirit of DaoC. Stealthers will be the death of this server if their constant cries for attention keep being pacified. I feel like they are playing a total aggro game of Civilization where they are the hyper aggressive leader constantly asking you to become their vassal state and resources.

????
Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:54 AM by Riac
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 3:28 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:28 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.

I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.

I'd say SB could use a little love.

Sounds like you're about 2 points in LA spec.. But i never said SB didn't need help but it's not near as much as some make it out to be...

im actually 21 LA spec atm with 44 CS. And i hit harder than i did at 50 LA spec which isn't exactly saying a lot. /ponder on that one

i like how he deleted my mocking comment, guess it really hit home lol
Sat 16 Mar 2019 6:02 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:59 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:35 AM
if i cared that much id look back and quote you were you said there is no proof that sb needs any buffs. but you def said they didnt need buffs

They don't need buffs... Not directly... Armor table changes tweaks or weapon damage types doesn't warrant a buff for the class but maybe a tweak to the system..

is an armor table tweek not a buff? but i agree, an armor table tweek is the simplest and most no intrusive way to handle this.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 6:37 AM by inoeth
12 la dmg lol
i do around 120 mh and 50 oh with 44 la
i dont believe that low la spec is worth it... maybe before la fix but now its definitely better than high cs
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:07 PM by Padatoo
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 3:28 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:28 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
21 LA spec atm with 44 CS. And i hit harder than i did at 50 LA spec

BS
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:28 PM by Mauriac
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:54 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 3:28 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:28 AM
Sounds like you're about 2 points in LA spec.. But i never said SB didn't need help but it's not near as much as some make it out to be...

im actually 21 LA spec atm with 44 CS. And i hit harder than i did at 50 LA spec which isn't exactly saying a lot. /ponder on that one

i like how he deleted my mocking comment, guess it really hit home lol

deleted a mocking comment? I just hit "quote" on your post then wrote what i did. I don't think anything you say "hit's home" since so far nothing you've said has contributed anything anyway aside from mentioning an armor table tweak would be justified.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:28 PM by Mauriac
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 6:02 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:59 AM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:35 AM
if i cared that much id look back and quote you were you said there is no proof that sb needs any buffs. but you def said they didnt need buffs

They don't need buffs... Not directly... Armor table changes tweaks or weapon damage types doesn't warrant a buff for the class but maybe a tweak to the system..

is an armor table tweek not a buff? but i agree, an armor table tweek is the simplest and most no intrusive way to handle this.

and yes, this makes sense.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:47 PM by Mauriac
keen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 4:58 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.
I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.
I'd say SB could use a little love.
Screenshot or chatlog please. Sounds to me like you hit into a mhb, even then 34dmg sound really low. What's the offhand speed?

offhand speed is 2.9 MP crafted. MH speed is 4.0 99qual crafted. I have a SS of the log. i'll post it soon as i figure out how
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:53 PM by phixion
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 6:37 AM
12 la dmg lol
i do around 120 mh and 50 oh with 44 la
i dont believe that low la spec is worth it... maybe before la fix but now its definitely better than high cs

Yeah which is fine, and totals around 170 damage.

Then you see a NS hit you for 170mh and 50oh... lol
Sat 16 Mar 2019 3:12 PM by Afuldan
phixion wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:53 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 6:37 AM
12 la dmg lol
i do around 120 mh and 50 oh with 44 la
i dont believe that low la spec is worth it... maybe before la fix but now its definitely better than high cs

Yeah which is fine, and totals around 170 damage.

Then you see a NS hit you for 170mh and 50oh... lol

Which with a high enough CD/DW spec, becomes 85% or higher chance to swing the OH... they spike that OH hit pretty often, which in the attached info on DW/CD/LA states that they WILL do more damage if they hit with OH often enough...

Pretty easy to see that SB are reaching the MH damage of NS/Inf, but with how often the high DW/CD spec sins are hitting OH, SB are getting left in the dust in encounters.

Damage adds are theoretically better for LA due to hitting every round, but in reality when the OH of DW/CD has 85%+ to swing, that supposed advantage of LA again gets left in the dust.
Sat 16 Mar 2019 11:49 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 3:28 AM
im actually 21 LA spec atm with 44 CS. And i hit harder than i did at 50 LA spec which isn't exactly saying a lot. /ponder on that one

If you're going to be that low in LA you're better off respec all that LA into MH or CS and go 2h with fastest 2h you can find
Sun 17 Mar 2019 12:28 AM by keen
All these made up numbers without any consistent prove in this thread.
Go to the dummy, hit it with garotte 1x fully buffed and show the result. Then you ask your arch enemy that always hits you for 170mh DMG in discord to do the same. Include your spec, weapon speed and Ras, then compare DMG and draw a conclusion.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 7:07 AM by inoeth
keen wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 12:28 AM
All these made up numbers without any consistent prove in this thread.
Go to the dummy, hit it with garotte 1x fully buffed and show the result. Then you ask your arch enemy that always hits you for 170mh DMG in discord to do the same. Include your spec, weapon speed and Ras, then compare DMG and draw a conclusion.

all dummys have same armor resists so hitting dummys, in this case, would only show that the dmg through all realms is even. therefore such a test would show nothing. the main problem is armor resists and that it turns out to a 20% malus for shadowblades...
Sun 17 Mar 2019 7:47 AM by sabyrtuth
With a 4.2 spd blade fully temped with buffs/charges I'm not hitting a temped sb for 170 mh.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:23 PM by Bradekes
sabyrtuth wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 7:47 AM
With a 4.2 spd blade fully temped with buffs/charges I'm not hitting a temped sb for 170 mh.

These guys like to exaggerate and not show screenshots. They also give half details and never say if they are templated or not. Thank you for your input
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:29 PM by Spewy
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 1:41 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:00 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:49 PM
bradekes, peraphs you should reread the forum.

I reread and I still didn't see any real valid testing or screenshots that weren't debunked.. Or where you actually brought anything to the table that was your idea or your own research...

I do see where you have tried to disrupt any post from anyone that doesn't favor your opinion even if that post comes with hard data..

Also you've continued to try to discredit peoples opinions that have played SB on the live version of the game, mine included, as being invalid.. So sorry if I don't agree with your methods and maybe will give others the benefit of the doubt vs your own opinions...

I just had a fight where i hit an NS for 122 MH and 17 OH. He hit me for 185 MH.

I'm running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF.

I'd say SB could use a little love.

Welcome in our world mate.

I am 5L5, yesterday I fight a Luri NS 3L it was hitting me 30% higher on every hit. Like you I was full RED buff.

It was funny at beginning but it starting to really pissed me off. There is no competition at all BladeNS > rest of the world.

Will be great if GMs will make leather neutral as suggested because at the moment the whole SBs community is suffering.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:35 PM by keen
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 7:07 AM
keen wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 12:28 AM
All these made up numbers without any consistent prove in this thread.
Go to the dummy, hit it with garotte 1x fully buffed and show the result. Then you ask your arch enemy that always hits you for 170mh DMG in discord to do the same. Include your spec, weapon speed and Ras, then compare DMG and draw a conclusion.
all dummys have same armor resists so hitting dummys, in this case, would only show that the dmg through all realms is even. therefore such a test would show nothing. the main problem is armor resists and that it turns out to a 20% malus for shadowblades...
This would give much more insight than random numbers spread since 30 pages where noone knows if they are true at all, and if true how the conditions of the fight were.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:39 PM by Spewy
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:47 PM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:42 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:43 PM
is making mid leather crush vulnerable like all other leathers not reasonable? i even said idc if we are jsut neutral to slash and thrust, i even said idc about not having an off evade stun... i just want to be no vuln to slash... feels pretty reasonable to me.

When this is the issue and you're telling everyone off this is what I'm talking about.. This simple idea has not been rebutted.. So it has nothing to do with what class or where someone's experience stems from as all mid armor is crush nuetral as each realm follows a pattern...

IMO it would be better just to make all leather neutral like cloth is or just remove all armor base resistance as it kinda is a silly idea to begin with as no other game has had this mechanic...

amen

amen x3
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:52 PM by Raec
Might aswell start the forum battle on different weapon speeds among realms and the difference beween race starting stats and resistance.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:14 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 1:23 PM
sabyrtuth wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 7:47 AM
With a 4.2 spd blade fully temped with buffs/charges I'm not hitting a temped sb for 170 mh.

These guys like to exaggerate and not show screenshots. They also give half details and never say if they are templated or not. Thank you for your input

This is my damage vs an NS at RR4 and 44 crit.

[attachment=2]RR4 vs NS as Critspec.jpg[/attachment]

This is the same NS damage vs me.

[attachment=1]NS Damage vs SB.jpg[/attachment]

This is my damage vs an RR4 scout at RR5 and 5spec (so 39 LA).

[attachment=0]At RR5 5spec vs R4 Scout.jpg[/attachment]

You were saying exactly?

edit: before I forget, this is with me running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF + 17% haste.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:25 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:14 PM
At RR5 5spec vs R4 Scout.jpg

You were saying exactly?

edit: before I forget, this is with me running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF + 17% haste.

Well this first set of ss is from when you were 22 in LA right? Do you know how gimp that is to begin with... You're losing 22% MH dmg and a ton of offhand... Also if you look his ablative was on meaning you're offhand actually did 32 damage not 17... You would of hit much harder with a fast 2h sword as you are only getting 77% of your mainhand damage at that spec which you would have 110% with a 2h....

I would suggest using WS/con debuff with Str debuff on bladeshades to really nerf their damage output as he actually may of done to you... can you show the debuffs you had at the moment if any...

As far as the scout SS goes, you were using a low growth rate style, not your 0.75 Style meaning you were missing out on a good chunk of damage for that SS specifically... How are you currently specced?
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:33 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:25 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:14 PM
At RR5 5spec vs R4 Scout.jpg

You were saying exactly?

edit: before I forget, this is with me running combined forces pot + 75 s/c + 75 d/q + 75 AF + 17% haste.

Well this first set of ss is from when you were 22 in LA right? Do you know how gimp that is to begin with... You're losing 22% MH dmg and a ton of offhand... Also if you look his ablative was on meaning you're offhand actually did 32 damage not 17... You would of hit much harder with a fast 2h sword as you are only getting 77% of your mainhand damage at that spec which you would have 110% with a 2h....

I would suggest using WS/con debuff with Str debuff on bladeshades to really nerf their damage output as he actually may of done to you... can you show the debuffs you had at the moment if any...

As far as the scout SS goes, you were using a low growth rate style, not your 0.75 Style meaning you were missing out on a good chunk of damage for that SS specifically... How are you currently specced?

Bro i was using frosty glaze. thats #2 in a chain off comeback. That's about as high a GR as i can get as a 5spec without having stunned him already and move behind for backstyle. I'm currently 39 LA 34 CS 36 Sword 35 stl/env. Also notice how the damage for 39 LA is LOWER than it was for 44 CS. Granted there is a difference of 5 points (44 to 39) and a difference in armor types (one is vs leather the other is vs studded) but still. Please stop trying so hard to ignore what it clearly there to see. SBs are in a crap position right now and it's primarily due to four things.

1) Poison nerf
2) Atrocious weapon options (slash or ....slash)
3) Armor tables that hate slash
4) Weak LA in general such as crap damage AND worst style selection (2nd chain off evade stun, no side stun yet hbis/albs have favorable changes in their DW and main weapon spec lines)

There a littany of ways to tackle this. The best way is to go with the least intrusive option first and either give SBs access to crush damage OR change mid leather to be at least neutral to slash and weak to crush and give LA some kind of side stun or a GR buff.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:34 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
Bro i was using frosty glaze. thats #2 in a chain off comeback. That's about as high a GR as i can get as a 5spec without having stunned him already and move behind for backstyle. I'm currently 39 LA 34 CS 36 Sword 35 stl/env. Also notice how the damage for 39 LA is LOWER than it was for 44 CS. Granted there is a difference of 5 points (44 to 39) and a difference in armor types (one is vs leather the other is vs studded) but still. Please stop trying so hard to ignore what it clearly there to see. SBs are in a crap position right now and it's primarily due to four things.

1) Poison nerf
2) Atrocious weapon options (slash or ....slash)
3) Armor tables that hate slash
4) Weak LA in general such as crap damage AND worst style selection (2nd chain off evade stun, no side stun yet hbis/albs have favorable changes in their DW and main weapon spec lines)

There a littany of ways to tackle this. The best way is to go with the least intrusive option first and either give SBs access to crush damage OR change mid leather to be at least neutral to slash and weak to crush and give LA some kind of side stun or a GR buff.

my bad I looked at wrong part of style damage mod.. and your damage was different because you were hitting studded instead of leather.. Like earlier post stated, you have to do your testing on training dummy because you will have too many discrepancies out in the field... Atleast you showed you taking 180dmg from MH on NS though, which seems really high
Sun 17 Mar 2019 6:57 PM by Mavella
First of all consider 5 spec on this server dead. You either need high CS or high LA or your damage is going to be gimped. High being defined by 44+. If you go high CS at a low RR you can use the evade stun from sword or axe. They still suck and honestly with purge being spec able down to 5min cooldown evade stuns aren't an "iwin" button like it was with 30 minute purge.

Sbs have the easily stacking dragon shadow proc + enervating + disease. If you get stunned just purge and you've created a huge Stat gap. Others tend to not purge our debuffs just to purge them for FEAR of a combat stun that may or may not come.

My personal recommended spec prior to rr6 is 44 CS, comp 52 weapon(or high enough for evade stun chains) , comp 50 stl/env remainders in LA. In my opinion if you're going to go CS 44 is the sweet spot as I feel I've read a dev say past composite 60 the benefits are diminished and how many times a night will you actually hit the 50 CS style? Few I imagine. You will still hit hard enough with your mainhand. Your offhand I'll hit slightly lower than a high LA build. Any extra points in LA as you gain RR will increase your main hand and off hand damage accordingly.

Focus on trying to get you hamstring chains as they will obviously hit the hardest and the defensive bonus will keep their offhand missing more. Allowing you to easily outdps people.

The only times I've felt I've been straight up beatdown by other stealthers it's easily chalked up to RNG (evades, procs, crits etc) or a 3+ RR difference where obviously the cards are stacked against you.

As you go up in RR you can do higher LA builds and still keep all the goodies in CS and envenom etc. Until you get to honestly rr 7 or 8 high CS is the way to go imo.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 8:01 PM by Shadowblade1
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 6:57 PM
First of all consider 5 spec on this server dead. You either need high CS or high LA or your damage is going to be gimped. High being defined by 44+. If you go high CS at a low RR you can use the evade stun from sword or axe. They still suck and honestly with purge being spec able down to 5min cooldown evade stuns aren't an "iwin" button like it was with 30 minute purge.

Sbs have the easily stacking dragon shadow proc + enervating + disease. If you get stunned just purge and you've created a huge Stat gap. Others tend to not purge our debuffs just to purge them for FEAR of a combat stun that may or may not come.

My personal recommended spec prior to rr6 is 44 CS, comp 52 weapon(or high enough for evade stun chains) , comp 50 stl/env remainders in LA. In my opinion if you're going to go CS 44 is the sweet spot as I feel I've read a dev say past composite 60 the benefits are diminished and how many times a night will you actually hit the 50 CS style? Few I imagine. You will still hit hard enough with your mainhand. Your offhand I'll hit slightly lower than a high LA build. Any extra points in LA as you gain RR will increase your main hand and off hand damage accordingly.

Focus on trying to get you hamstring chains as they will obviously hit the hardest and the defensive bonus will keep their offhand missing more. Allowing you to easily outdps people.

The only times I've felt I've been straight up beatdown by other stealthers it's easily chalked up to RNG (evades, procs, crits etc) or a 3+ RR difference where obviously the cards are stacked against you.

As you go up in RR you can do higher LA builds and still keep all the goodies in CS and envenom etc. Until you get to honestly rr 7 or 8 high CS is the way to go imo.

Thanks for this info. As a lower RR SB I have 44 sword and CS with comp 48 evenom. My hope was to milk as much weaponskill as I could from sword spec, combined with the last enervating, that I could generate more evades (obviously). This of course left me 6 LA. I've actually always ran low DW/CD on my previous live Assassins and always done well. But I was noticing last night that my offhand had a 52% chance to MISS. I was floored. Maybe its always been that punishing with low offhand specs, but when I played, the percentages were not displayed. I fully anticipated a dimisned off hand swing rate, amd even saw a little bit of bennefit not trigger as many epic ablatives, but wow. 52% chance to miss on a standing caster was eye opening. This was counter productive to my poison application.

So, I did what any good SB would do...freak out and respec. I dropped sword to 39 and dumped it into LA. Now, I still need to really look at it since I logged very shortly after, but I swear it was still only 47%.
Sun 17 Mar 2019 8:19 PM by jelzinga_EU
With all stats the same but specs 44 CS 21 LA vs 39 CS 21 LA I get the following:
115 garrote vs 111 garrote
131 AH vs 126 Achilles Heel
124 Pincer vs 120 Pincer
PA 385 vs 351
then with 39 CS and 31 LA
114 garrote
129 AH`
123 Pincer
PA 354
With 21 LA my OH was doing 34 dmg, 39 with 31 LA

All-in-all it is pretty even, it doesn't really matter which of the specs you go at RR5'ish (imo). The good thing about 44 CS is the higher perfs and sometimes you're lucky to land the 3-Evade-chain at times (Hamstring, Leaper, Rib Seperation)
Sun 17 Mar 2019 10:19 PM by Mauriac
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 6:57 PM
First of all consider 5 spec on this server dead. You either need high CS or high LA or your damage is going to be gimped. High being defined by 44+. If you go high CS at a low RR you can use the evade stun from sword or axe. They still suck and honestly with purge being spec able down to 5min cooldown evade stuns aren't an "iwin" button like it was with 30 minute purge.

Sbs have the easily stacking dragon shadow proc + enervating + disease. If you get stunned just purge and you've created a huge Stat gap. Others tend to not purge our debuffs just to purge them for FEAR of a combat stun that may or may not come.

My personal recommended spec prior to rr6 is 44 CS, comp 52 weapon(or high enough for evade stun chains) , comp 50 stl/env remainders in LA. In my opinion if you're going to go CS 44 is the sweet spot as I feel I've read a dev say past composite 60 the benefits are diminished and how many times a night will you actually hit the 50 CS style? Few I imagine. You will still hit hard enough with your mainhand. Your offhand I'll hit slightly lower than a high LA build. Any extra points in LA as you gain RR will increase your main hand and off hand damage accordingly.

Focus on trying to get you hamstring chains as they will obviously hit the hardest and the defensive bonus will keep their offhand missing more. Allowing you to easily outdps people.

The only times I've felt I've been straight up beatdown by other stealthers it's easily chalked up to RNG (evades, procs, crits etc) or a 3+ RR difference where obviously the cards are stacked against you.

As you go up in RR you can do higher LA builds and still keep all the goodies in CS and envenom etc. Until you get to honestly rr 7 or 8 high CS is the way to go imo.

I don't disagree with you but having gone through the whole list of specs from 50 LA to 44 CS to 5 spec I can say that my damage isn't different by more than 10-12 points on my MH and about the same on my OH between the specs. I think a more apt conclusion isn't so much that 5spec is dead but that SB damage in general is gimped hard on phoenix right now.

As i mentioned earlier, I hit harder as a 44cs spec than i did as a 50 LA spec, not to mention having the utility of PA/CD/SS which I couldn't have with 50 LA. I also tried 44 LA with 21 CS just to have perf for popping bubble but the lack of a stun means that to kill casters I almost always needed purge to get out of some form of CC.

I think the reason that higher CS works better at lower RR isn't so much a damage thing so much as it simply lets you kill a specific set of targets (casters, sub 50s,, untemped/unbuffed 50s, low RR-non-tanks) more efficiently than with LA since LA for SBs is purely damage (and laughable damage at that). There is no utility in the form of a side stun or something else that provides functionality in the way that CS does right now if you're low RR. At higher RRs, you can get the benefit of having PA/CD along with a good 44 LA since you have the points to spare but the damage difference isn't exactly much to brag about but it makes you a bit more competitive against other targets like infs and NS (in theory)
Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:38 PM by Shadowblade1
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 10:19 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 6:57 PM
First of all consider 5 spec on this server dead. You either need high CS or high LA or your damage is going to be gimped. High being defined by 44+. If you go high CS at a low RR you can use the evade stun from sword or axe. They still suck and honestly with purge being spec able down to 5min cooldown evade stuns aren't an "iwin" button like it was with 30 minute purge.

Sbs have the easily stacking dragon shadow proc + enervating + disease. If you get stunned just purge and you've created a huge Stat gap. Others tend to not purge our debuffs just to purge them for FEAR of a combat stun that may or may not come.

My personal recommended spec prior to rr6 is 44 CS, comp 52 weapon(or high enough for evade stun chains) , comp 50 stl/env remainders in LA. In my opinion if you're going to go CS 44 is the sweet spot as I feel I've read a dev say past composite 60 the benefits are diminished and how many times a night will you actually hit the 50 CS style? Few I imagine. You will still hit hard enough with your mainhand. Your offhand I'll hit slightly lower than a high LA build. Any extra points in LA as you gain RR will increase your main hand and off hand damage accordingly.

Focus on trying to get you hamstring chains as they will obviously hit the hardest and the defensive bonus will keep their offhand missing more. Allowing you to easily outdps people.

The only times I've felt I've been straight up beatdown by other stealthers it's easily chalked up to RNG (evades, procs, crits etc) or a 3+ RR difference where obviously the cards are stacked against you.

As you go up in RR you can do higher LA builds and still keep all the goodies in CS and envenom etc. Until you get to honestly rr 7 or 8 high CS is the way to go imo.

I don't disagree with you but having gone through the whole list of specs from 50 LA to 44 CS to 5 spec I can say that my damage isn't different by more than 10-12 points on my MH and about the same on my OH between the specs. I think a more apt conclusion isn't so much that 5spec is dead but that SB damage in general is gimped hard on phoenix right now.

As i mentioned earlier, I hit harder as a 44cs spec than i did as a 50 LA spec, not to mention having the utility of PA/CD/SS which I couldn't have with 50 LA. I also tried 44 LA with 21 CS just to have perf for popping bubble but the lack of a stun means that to kill casters I almost always needed purge to get out of some form of CC.

I think the reason that higher CS works better at lower RR isn't so much a damage thing so much as it simply lets you kill a specific set of targets (casters, sub 50s,, untemped/unbuffed 50s, low RR-non-tanks) more efficiently than with LA since LA for SBs is purely damage (and laughable damage at that). There is no utility in the form of a side stun or something else that provides functionality in the way that CS does right now if you're low RR. At higher RRs, you can get the benefit of having PA/CD along with a good 44 LA since you have the points to spare but the damage difference isn't exactly much to brag about but it makes you a bit more competitive against other targets like infs and NS (in theory)


Does LA effect your % of offhand swings when not using LA styles?
Mon 18 Mar 2019 1:31 AM by Mauriac
Shadowblade1 wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:38 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 10:19 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 6:57 PM
First of all consider 5 spec on this server dead. You either need high CS or high LA or your damage is going to be gimped. High being defined by 44+. If you go high CS at a low RR you can use the evade stun from sword or axe. They still suck and honestly with purge being spec able down to 5min cooldown evade stuns aren't an "iwin" button like it was with 30 minute purge.

Sbs have the easily stacking dragon shadow proc + enervating + disease. If you get stunned just purge and you've created a huge Stat gap. Others tend to not purge our debuffs just to purge them for FEAR of a combat stun that may or may not come.

My personal recommended spec prior to rr6 is 44 CS, comp 52 weapon(or high enough for evade stun chains) , comp 50 stl/env remainders in LA. In my opinion if you're going to go CS 44 is the sweet spot as I feel I've read a dev say past composite 60 the benefits are diminished and how many times a night will you actually hit the 50 CS style? Few I imagine. You will still hit hard enough with your mainhand. Your offhand I'll hit slightly lower than a high LA build. Any extra points in LA as you gain RR will increase your main hand and off hand damage accordingly.

Focus on trying to get you hamstring chains as they will obviously hit the hardest and the defensive bonus will keep their offhand missing more. Allowing you to easily outdps people.

The only times I've felt I've been straight up beatdown by other stealthers it's easily chalked up to RNG (evades, procs, crits etc) or a 3+ RR difference where obviously the cards are stacked against you.

As you go up in RR you can do higher LA builds and still keep all the goodies in CS and envenom etc. Until you get to honestly rr 7 or 8 high CS is the way to go imo.

I don't disagree with you but having gone through the whole list of specs from 50 LA to 44 CS to 5 spec I can say that my damage isn't different by more than 10-12 points on my MH and about the same on my OH between the specs. I think a more apt conclusion isn't so much that 5spec is dead but that SB damage in general is gimped hard on phoenix right now.

As i mentioned earlier, I hit harder as a 44cs spec than i did as a 50 LA spec, not to mention having the utility of PA/CD/SS which I couldn't have with 50 LA. I also tried 44 LA with 21 CS just to have perf for popping bubble but the lack of a stun means that to kill casters I almost always needed purge to get out of some form of CC.

I think the reason that higher CS works better at lower RR isn't so much a damage thing so much as it simply lets you kill a specific set of targets (casters, sub 50s,, untemped/unbuffed 50s, low RR-non-tanks) more efficiently than with LA since LA for SBs is purely damage (and laughable damage at that). There is no utility in the form of a side stun or something else that provides functionality in the way that CS does right now if you're low RR. At higher RRs, you can get the benefit of having PA/CD along with a good 44 LA since you have the points to spare but the damage difference isn't exactly much to brag about but it makes you a bit more competitive against other targets like infs and NS (in theory)


Does LA effect your % of offhand swings when not using LA styles?

yes, in that it affects the damage for BOTH MH and OH regardless
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:01 AM by hinzleman
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 1:31 AM
Shadowblade1 wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:38 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 10:19 PM
I don't disagree with you but having gone through the whole list of specs from 50 LA to 44 CS to 5 spec I can say that my damage isn't different by more than 10-12 points on my MH and about the same on my OH between the specs. I think a more apt conclusion isn't so much that 5spec is dead but that SB damage in general is gimped hard on phoenix right now.

As i mentioned earlier, I hit harder as a 44cs spec than i did as a 50 LA spec, not to mention having the utility of PA/CD/SS which I couldn't have with 50 LA. I also tried 44 LA with 21 CS just to have perf for popping bubble but the lack of a stun means that to kill casters I almost always needed purge to get out of some form of CC.

I think the reason that higher CS works better at lower RR isn't so much a damage thing so much as it simply lets you kill a specific set of targets (casters, sub 50s,, untemped/unbuffed 50s, low RR-non-tanks) more efficiently than with LA since LA for SBs is purely damage (and laughable damage at that). There is no utility in the form of a side stun or something else that provides functionality in the way that CS does right now if you're low RR. At higher RRs, you can get the benefit of having PA/CD along with a good 44 LA since you have the points to spare but the damage difference isn't exactly much to brag about but it makes you a bit more competitive against other targets like infs and NS (in theory)


Does LA effect your % of offhand swings when not using LA styles?
What about the rate of swings? Currently, when I miss with styled offhand attacks, it says I have a 51% chance to miss???
yes, in that it affects the damage for BOTH MH and OH regardless
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:07 AM by dante`afk
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:25 PM
You're losing 22% MH dmg and a ton of offhand...

What class are you playing, when was the last time you played a class with LA mechanics?
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:18 AM by Bradekes
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:07 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:25 PM
You're losing 22% MH dmg and a ton of offhand...

What class are you playing, when was the last time you played a class with LA mechanics?

just going by the chart.. I am starting on mid and will be making a SB or zerker.. every point trained is about 0.33%dmg on MH and 0.56% dmg on offhand damage. So if someone only has 21LA not sure if +skills or not but they only said 21LA then their dmg would only be like 77%MH which is terrible
Mon 18 Mar 2019 5:46 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:18 AM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:07 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:25 PM
You're losing 22% MH dmg and a ton of offhand...

What class are you playing, when was the last time you played a class with LA mechanics?

just going by the chart.. I am starting on mid and will be making a SB or zerker.. every point trained is about 0.33%dmg on MH and 0.56% dmg on offhand damage. So if someone only has 21LA not sure if +skills or not but they only said 21LA then their dmg would only be like 77%MH which is terrible

You're wrong. The formula's for LA are, afaik currently:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

However, this only is accurate for unstyled damage - style bonuses do not suffer from the LA-penalty. So assuming 21 LA you're already at 83.6% mainhand damage, not 77%. But because styled attacks do not suffer from LA the damage is, in practice a bit higher too. It might be 87%-90% on higher damaging styles.

The interesting thing is however to what you compare: 100% unstyled mainhand requires 69 LA spec ( 100 - 77.33 = 0.33*LA solves LA for 69). It's completely unrealistic to set that as benchmark to compare with.

We only have so much spec-points, dropping from 50 LA in order to get more CS isn't about "losing mainhand damage" but about gaining style(-utility and damage) from CS too.
Mon 18 Mar 2019 10:16 AM by Bradekes
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 5:46 AM
However, this only is accurate for unstyled damage - style bonuses do not suffer from the LA-penalty.

Are you sure about this? Because that doesn't seem correct by the least... Also the rest of the post is good info ty..

This was always easy to test.. Just use CS style with mainhand only (unequip offhand) and see how high your damage was supposed to be.
Mon 18 Mar 2019 10:41 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 10:16 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 5:46 AM
However, this only is accurate for unstyled damage - style bonuses do not suffer from the LA-penalty.

Are you sure about this? Because that doesn't seem correct by the least... Also the rest of the post is good info ty..

This was always easy to test.. Just use CS style with mainhand only (unequip offhand) and see how high your damage was supposed to be.

I'm sure. It has been stated by Gruenesschaf and you can deduce it from hitting dummy styled with and without offhand and the effective LA-spec. Hitting dummy unbuffed with a shitty style is 92 MH and without offhand is 97 MH at 31+15 LA spec.

According to formula at 46 LA spec I should be at 92.5% dmg but 92/97 = 94.8% and that difference is caused by the fact style-bonus is not penalized by LA-spec. I don't think there is much wrong with Left Axe damage-wise, but there are a few subtle differences which matter in balance but don't get considered when you purely look at the formula's for (unstyled) damage of Left Axe vs CD/DW :

* Left-Axe damage is, theoretically, for a larger portion dependent on offhand-damage. However, the offhand is on a separate WS-table rather than dependent on mainhand-spec. This results in <52 composite LA-spec in more evade/block/parries of the offhand than its counter-part.
* Left-Axe procs more damage-shield (Elixir of Shard Skin) and defensive armour-procs.

Both effects combined probably cancel out any theoretical DPS-advantage Left Axe has.
Mon 18 Mar 2019 12:54 PM by Spewy
just to clarify, as we have a 34 pages thread about SBs issue, can we except GMs to do something as we suggested? Leather becoming neutral or adding the Blunt ability? is that something we could expect in the following weeks/months?

thanks
Mon 18 Mar 2019 1:34 PM by keen
We might as well need to limit SBs to be kobolts only to match the str based stats compared to hib stealthers.
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:12 PM by Seosaidh
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 1:34 PM
We might as well need to limit SBs to be kobolts only to match the str based stats compared to hib stealthers.

GIve us after-evade stun and the option of speccing a str/dex based weapon and i'll take you up on your offer.
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:37 PM by dante`afk
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 10:16 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 5:46 AM
However, this only is accurate for unstyled damage - style bonuses do not suffer from the LA-penalty.

Are you sure about this? B

Yes he's right, and that's why you see 44cs 21LA specs have higher dmg than 50LA 21cs specs as Mauriac (or Raic?) pointed out earlier.

keen wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 1:34 PM
We might as well need to limit SBs to be kobolts only to match the str based stats compared to hib stealthers.

We still circle jerking, aren't we? Take my 2h , take my 100hp, take my racial bonues and whatever else for after evade stun and different leather table. anytime.
Mon 18 Mar 2019 2:46 PM by keen
dante`afk wrote: ↑
keen wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 1:34 PM
We might as well need to limit SBs to be kobolts only to match the str based stats compared to hib stealthers.
We still circle jerking, aren't we? Take my 2h , take my 100hp, take my racial bonues and whatever else for after evade stun and different leather table. anytime.
That's why I am suggesting mirrored stealth classes and striping stealth from minstrels. Otherwise we get the next 35+page thread from ns and infis after sbs got buffed.

Apart from suggesting that someone should post doll hits under same conditions for SB ns and info instead of posting infight screenshots. Haven't seen any reliable chatlogs or screenshots in 35pages discussion...
Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:17 PM by Bradekes
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 5:46 AM
However, this only is accurate for unstyled damage - style bonuses do not suffer from the LA-penalty.

Well growth rates aren't affected by anything except base damage I guess... But your base damage is affected by LA spec so your style damage is technically affected by spec.. So if someone wants to calculate the perfect balance that would be sweet.. If i get time to do so I'll do it with maths...
Mon 18 Mar 2019 11:03 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:17 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 5:46 AM
However, this only is accurate for unstyled damage - style bonuses do not suffer from the LA-penalty.

Well growth rates aren't affected by anything except base damage I guess... But your base damage is affected by LA spec so your style damage is technically affected by spec.. So if someone wants to calculate the perfect balance that would be sweet.. If i get time to do so I'll do it with maths...

if you're a math guy i'd love to see you work this out. my experience tells me you will see a sizeable difference in dps between DW/CD users and LA users which gets worse once you factor in armor tables, procs, shard skin, etc.
Mon 18 Mar 2019 11:14 PM by florin
I will say that sbs have nothing to complain about - see the damage being pumped out by rr7+ and you’re in a good spot.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:03 AM by Mauriac
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 11:14 PM
I will say that sbs have nothing to complain about - see the damage being pumped out by rr7+ and you’re in a good spot.

sure until you see the damage pumped out by an RR7+ inf or NS.... did you not see the SS i posted earlier? An NS can he me with 1h harder than i can hit with both hands. by a substantial margin. 2 RRs isn't going to makeup for the damage difference.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:40 AM by florin
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:03 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 11:14 PM
I will say that sbs have nothing to complain about - see the damage being pumped out by rr7+ and you’re in a good spot.

sure until you see the damage pumped out by an RR7+ inf or NS.... did you not see the SS i posted earlier? An NS can he me with 1h harder than i can hit with both hands. by a substantial margin. 2 RRs isn't going to makeup for the damage difference.

Perhaps they have a lot of points into aug str. I have been hit by sbs mh for 160-200 before. I’m all for making leather neutral - doesn’t make sense to have it different when cloth is neutral.

Or just make us all 2h, insta DD, 2.5 spec, with Omni evade stun
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:25 AM by Mauriac
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:03 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 11:14 PM
I will say that sbs have nothing to complain about - see the damage being pumped out by rr7+ and you’re in a good spot.

sure until you see the damage pumped out by an RR7+ inf or NS.... did you not see the SS i posted earlier? An NS can he me with 1h harder than i can hit with both hands. by a substantial margin. 2 RRs isn't going to makeup for the damage difference.

Perhaps they have a lot of points into aug str. I have been hit by sbs mh for 160-200 before. I’m all for making leather neutral - doesn’t make sense to have it different when cloth is neutral.

Or just make us all 2h, insta DD, 2.5 spec, with Omni evade stun

you're either being horrifically disingenuous about being hit for 160-200 mh before or you're not telling all the details. I've certainly hit people for 200 MH before. They were also untemped and unbuffed and sub50. I've never hit a temped 50 even close to that and certainly not if they're running buffs.

I've also PAed people for 900 before with a 300 crit. They were also a cloth wearer, sub50 and sitting.

The norm in rvr is to be level 50, temped and running something even if its just a CF pot. The norm is not what you're describing at all.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:43 AM by florin
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:25 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:03 AM
sure until you see the damage pumped out by an RR7+ inf or NS.... did you not see the SS i posted earlier? An NS can he me with 1h harder than i can hit with both hands. by a substantial margin. 2 RRs isn't going to makeup for the damage difference.

Perhaps they have a lot of points into aug str. I have been hit by sbs mh for 160-200 before. I’m all for making leather neutral - doesn’t make sense to have it different when cloth is neutral.

Or just make us all 2h, insta DD, 2.5 spec, with Omni evade stun

you're either being horrifically disingenuous about being hit for 160-200 mh before or you're not telling all the details. I've certainly hit people for 200 MH before. They were also untemped and unbuffed and sub50. I've never hit a temped 50 even close to that and certainly not if they're running buffs.

I've also PAed people for 900 before with a 300 crit. They were also a cloth wearer, sub50 and sitting.

The norm in rvr is to be level 50, temped and running something even if its just a CF pot. The norm is not what you're describing at all.

Tempted and buffed with minimum spec AF. And 50/ rr 5-6 inf. Check out your rr7s and 8s. They hit like a truck
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:17 AM by Padatoo
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:43 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:25 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
Perhaps they have a lot of points into aug str. I have been hit by sbs mh for 160-200 before. I’m all for making leather neutral - doesn’t make sense to have it different when cloth is neutral.

Or just make us all 2h, insta DD, 2.5 spec, with Omni evade stun

you're either being horrifically disingenuous about being hit for 160-200 mh before or you're not telling all the details. I've certainly hit people for 200 MH before. They were also untemped and unbuffed and sub50. I've never hit a temped 50 even close to that and certainly not if they're running buffs.

I've also PAed people for 900 before with a 300 crit. They were also a cloth wearer, sub50 and sitting.

The norm in rvr is to be level 50, temped and running something even if its just a CF pot. The norm is not what you're describing at all.

Tempted and buffed with minimum spec AF. And 50/ rr 5-6 inf. Check out your rr7s and 8s. They hit like a truck

SB dmg can vary from 100 to 220 ,with total dps being the same,more or less - haste effects & style bonus.Its very possible that some stubborn CS spec user did manage to pull whole hamstring chain on you,for example ( would give a nice number,but thats a dumb move overall)
Tue 19 Mar 2019 11:24 AM by Spewy
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:25 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:03 AM
sure until you see the damage pumped out by an RR7+ inf or NS.... did you not see the SS i posted earlier? An NS can he me with 1h harder than i can hit with both hands. by a substantial margin. 2 RRs isn't going to makeup for the damage difference.

Perhaps they have a lot of points into aug str. I have been hit by sbs mh for 160-200 before. I’m all for making leather neutral - doesn’t make sense to have it different when cloth is neutral.

Or just make us all 2h, insta DD, 2.5 spec, with Omni evade stun

you're either being horrifically disingenuous about being hit for 160-200 mh before or you're not telling all the details. I've certainly hit people for 200 MH before. They were also untemped and unbuffed and sub50. I've never hit a temped 50 even close to that and certainly not if they're running buffs.

I've also PAed people for 900 before with a 300 crit. They were also a cloth wearer, sub50 and sitting.

The norm in rvr is to be level 50, temped and running something even if its just a CF pot. The norm is not what you're describing at all.


Sorry to say but that 100% true.

some NS are doing more dmg with 1 hand than us with our MH OH combined. Its a fact.

I am fully templated red buff, i said that since the beginning of the server,


The fun fact is that DW/CD is supposed make OH not hitting every swings, but most of the time it been hitting us 8/10 times for double of our dmg.

Yes it’s true, GM check records maybe??

Thanks
Tue 19 Mar 2019 12:43 PM by inoeth
Spewy wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 11:24 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:25 AM
florin wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
Perhaps they have a lot of points into aug str. I have been hit by sbs mh for 160-200 before. I’m all for making leather neutral - doesn’t make sense to have it different when cloth is neutral.

Or just make us all 2h, insta DD, 2.5 spec, with Omni evade stun

you're either being horrifically disingenuous about being hit for 160-200 mh before or you're not telling all the details. I've certainly hit people for 200 MH before. They were also untemped and unbuffed and sub50. I've never hit a temped 50 even close to that and certainly not if they're running buffs.

I've also PAed people for 900 before with a 300 crit. They were also a cloth wearer, sub50 and sitting.

The norm in rvr is to be level 50, temped and running something even if its just a CF pot. The norm is not what you're describing at all.


Sorry to say but that 100% true.

some NS are doing more dmg with 1 hand than us with our MH OH combined. Its a fact.

I am fully templated red buff, i said that since the beginning of the server,


The fun fact is that DW/CD is supposed make OH not hitting every swings, but most of the time it been hitting us 8/10 times for double of our dmg.

Yes it’s true, GM check records maybe??

Thanks

pssst dont talk so loud, my thread got locked for saying that Oo
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:16 PM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 12:43 PM
Spewy wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 11:24 AM
The fun fact is that DW/CD is supposed make OH not hitting every swings, but most of the time it been hitting us 8/10 times for double of our dmg.

pssst dont talk so loud, my thread got locked for saying that Oo

I highly highly doubt any NS are pumping in CD points that high...
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:29 PM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:16 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 12:43 PM
Spewy wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 11:24 AM
The fun fact is that DW/CD is supposed make OH not hitting every swings, but most of the time it been hitting us 8/10 times for double of our dmg.

pssst dont talk so loud, my thread got locked for saying that Oo

I highly highly doubt any NS are pumping in CD points that high...

no they dont but hit chance per lvl was increased so even with low spec they have higher chance to hit offhand than it is supposed to
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:33 PM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:29 PM
no they dont but hit chance per lvl was increased so even with low spec they have higher chance to hit offhand than it is supposed to

Yeah... Along with LA increase as the two skills are tied together... It's .21% increase which most NS get like 18cd so with 18+11 it's only 6% increase chance for the majority.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:43 PM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:33 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:29 PM
no they dont but hit chance per lvl was increased so even with low spec they have higher chance to hit offhand than it is supposed to

Yeah... Along with LA increase as the two skills are tied together... It's .21% increase which most NS get like 18cd so with 18+11 it's only 6% increase chance for the majority.

no la was just fixed because it was wrong in the first place, cd/dw was right before and actually buffed now.... thats a difference, even though GMs dont want to hear it.
even if it is only 6%.... its 6% they normaly should not have and which further influences balance of the dual wielding classes.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:45 PM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
no la was just fixed because it was wrong in the first place, cd/dw was right before and actually buffed now....

You know that's a flat out lie
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:49 PM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:45 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
no la was just fixed because it was wrong in the first place, cd/dw was right before and actually buffed now....

You know that's a flat out lie

no its not

on live the formulas are:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

and

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .68 * CD/DW spec


here the staff decided to increase dw/cd to:

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .86 * CD/DW spec

prove me wrong
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:59 PM by gruenesschaf
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:49 PM
no its not

on live the formulas are:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

and

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .68 * CD/DW spec


here the staff decided to increase dw/cd to:

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .86 * CD/DW spec

prove me wrong

That argument again. Prove that on live it was not changed to .86 for CD/DW, you can actually still test that there on pend. If a sufficiently large data set is provided that proves the dw/cd chance wasn't changed as well it will be reverted back again.
The entire point of the 2 different mechanics is that they are supposed to deal the same unstyled damage when ignoring haste effect. The .68 for dw is from the same time LA was tested to be .34 on both hands, the .34 and .52 are the new values after nf / removal of duelist reflexes. I don't really see a reason why one should assume both mechanics dealing the same damage was abandoned / why cd/dw didn't get the same buff after duelist reflexes removal.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:20 PM by inoeth
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:59 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 1:49 PM
no its not

on live the formulas are:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

and

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .68 * CD/DW spec


here the staff decided to increase dw/cd to:

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .86 * CD/DW spec

prove me wrong

That argument again. Prove that on live it was not changed to .86 for CD/DW, you can actually still test that there on pend. If a sufficiently large data set is provided that proves the dw/cd chance wasn't changed as well it will be reverted back again.
The entire point of the 2 different mechanics is that they are supposed to deal the same unstyled damage when ignoring haste effect. The .68 for dw is from the same time LA was tested to be .34 on both hands, the .34 and .52 are the new values after nf / removal of duelist reflexes. I don't really see a reason why one should assume both mechanics dealing the same damage was abandoned / why cd/dw didn't get the same buff after duelist reflexes removal.

so you basicly confess here that you simply dont know and just guess that there must have been a change to dw/cd mechanic aswell.

let me ask you a question:

if there was a change, why dont you find any information about that on the internet? and why is there much information about how i said the mechanic works?

you have a point there that you say it needs to be tested though.
and actually i would do the tests but i dont have an active account anymore and i dont want to subscribe.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:28 PM by gruenesschaf
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:20 PM
so you basicly confess here that you simply dont know and just guess that there must have been a change to dw/cd mechanic aswell.

let me ask you a question:

if there was a change, why dont you find any information about that on the internet? and why is there much information about how i said the mechanic works?

you have a point there that you say it needs to be tested though.
and actually i would do the tests but i dont have an active account anymore and i dont want to subscribe.

If by "just guess" you mean starting with 2 known formulas that are supposed to do the same in the end and knowing that one of them changed and making the same adjustment to the other, then yes.

Why is there much information on .68?
The same reason people still believe a single growth rate that's used to multiply base damage defines how styles work in daoc despite LA, PA, BS and more proving that it is not the case
The same reason many people still believe AoM reduces CC time
The same reason people believe every single buff on a pet increases the absorb
The same reason many many other things are said to be the case when they are not
The same reason many believe 51 comp spec is the cap
The same reason some believe resists from items / buffs / whatever actually affect the resist rate

They either at some point were tested to be that way with later tests that proved those earlier tests wrong and those were ignored / aren't that well known, nobody bothered to retest or it actually changed and both, the earlier and later testes, were correct for whenever they were made. Or, simply, someone heard a rumor and it was spread and nobody bothered to ever really test it / contrary results were ignored, as is for example the case for the resists affecting resist rate.

You can even now still find a lot more recent references to .34 on MH and OH for LA than the results of the more recent tests / after the removal of duelist reflexes.

And in this particular case, since I don't see a reason to assume that the basic premise of those 2 mechanics was changed, I don't see the need to most likely waste multiple hours on testing this. But as I said, if someone wants to see a nerf on dw/cd and wants to potentially waste many hours they are welcome to test it on pend. If it actually turns out that the adjustment was only made to LA it will be reverted for cd/dw. Given the way sos breaking works I wouldn't be too surprised if they abandoned all reason in more places and LA and cd/dw are no longer the same for unstyled damage, however I consider it unlikely and just not worth our testing time.

A sufficient player test here would require multiple combat logs with time stamps at different dw/cd spec points, at least a very low and a very high spec, of at least 10000 swings with a video of at least the first 10 minutes of the test per spec where both the time as well as spec is shown which has to match the start of the combat log. The 10000 swings should have at most a variance of a couple % whereas only 1000 swings if you're "lucky" could put you well within the other formula.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:09 PM by Padatoo
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:28 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:20 PM
The same reason many people still believe AoM reduces CC time


Does it on phoenix ,as stated in the General Class Changes?
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:14 PM by gruenesschaf
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:09 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:28 PM
The same reason many people still believe AoM reduces CC time


Does it on phoenix ,as stated in the General Class Changes?

In August we still had OF ras and there it was made as a fix as in OF it did affect cc time. Not really sure why it's mentioned in general class changes, however, since the switch to new ras secondary resists no longer affect CC duration as it's not supposed to in nf.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 4:25 PM by Spewy
@gruenesschaf

Mate, I am not an expert in formula and I did not swings 100000 times to make sure that the server's numbers are correct neither

I believe that you (all GMs) did a great job and still doing an amazing job for the server but you need to understand that something is wrong at the moment for us (SBs)

We all claimed it, absolutely everyone are talking about it, SB DPS is too weak, I dont know if its X, Y or Z reasons but I told you, we told you, all of us which are playing DAOC since more than 10 years are saying that something is wrong.

It's not possible that a Fucking Luri 3L is doing more DPS with only his MH than a SB 5L+ with MH + OH combined. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE. That a fact, you gonna ask me for screenshots, talked about debuff, super buff what ever you think we are saying bullshit but we all experienced that more than once We are tired to talk about it and to defend ourself how we are lying about it.

Of course NS will denied it, "OH I NEVER DID THAT MUCH DPS TO A SBs, I WISH BLABLALBA" mate seriously do you think that a NS will say that to see a nerf the following week?

I don't see neither any 35+ pages threads about how NS / INF have a DPS issue, but yes there is a SBs threads which talked about it and believe me if NS or INFIL will think about their dps were too low they will do the same thing than us.

I wont stop playing anyway but that will be good that you trust us and do something for us, that it.

Thanks.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 4:41 PM by Padatoo
Spewy wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 4:25 PM
@gruenesschaf

Mate, I am not an expert in formula and I did not swings 100000 times to make sure that the server's numbers are correct neither

Thanks.

I believe you should make a 100 swings test at least,before adding anything to this topic.

Just killed a RR3 BM with my RR5 SB ,twice.He sure did more damage per hit - didnt help,since I had more dps.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 4:41 PM by Mavella
If you're getting out-dpsed by a brehon either you suck or your spec/template does. Obviously statistical anomalies will happen and they will kill you occasionally but in a straight up dps race you should not be losing. There are no issues with LA outside of what has already been identified.

Armor tables, shard skin pots, and lack of 1 step evade stun(major lack of utility). Sb's get a ridiculous str/con debuff proc that goes off every fight to make up for it.

Stop trying to force high LA or wierd high weapon builds at low RR you're only doing yourself a disservice as your going to be giving up CS/envenom damage and utility to do it.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:06 PM by jelzinga_EU
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 4:41 PM
If you're getting out-dpsed by a brehon either you suck or your spec/template does. Obviously statistical anomalies will happen and they will kill you occasionally but in a straight up dps race you should not be losing. There are no issues with LA outside of what has already been identified.

Armor tables, shard skin pots, and lack of 1 step evade stun(major lack of utility). Sb's get a ridiculous str/con debuff proc that goes off every fight to make up for it.

Stop trying to force high LA or wierd high weapon builds at low RR you're only doing yourself a disservice as your going to be giving up CS/envenom damage and utility to do it.

It is quite a bold statement to claim that a STR/CON debuff (on the Skald 1H Sword from TG) makes up for the armor-tables, shard skin potions, lack of 1-step evade stuns.

In fact, I'm 100% guaranteed it does not, but for the sake of argument, how did you get to this conclusion? Some underlying math to show me how you came to this conclusion would be helpful. The same goes for the "If you're getting out-dpsed by a brehon either you suck or your spec/template does". It is actually quite easy to get out-DPS'ed by a RR3 NS as a RR5 SB in a fight and it doesn't require an extraordinary amount of RNG to do so. 20% difference in armour-tables gives the NS quite some headroom to stay ahead on the DPS-curve in a 1vs1 situation.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:29 PM by sabyrtuth
I didn't save a log but Inchai is a beast sb. I'm rr5, he's 7 and I got the jump last night. We were hitting for similar damage, both purged stuns and he whooped me. My garrotes with slowest blade were around 130s.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:31 PM by Mavella
Because luri and elves are already behind what 30-35 str compared to Norse at a base and when you drop them 58 points combined with enervating and disease you are practically cutting their effective strength in half. This isn't rocket science and I did admit the armor tables are a big deal for slash but the amount of strength you can debuff these already low strength races is comical.

Just from the sword proc, racial difference and disease that's gonna be between 80-100 flat str difference after both parties are enervated which is HUGE when stealthers are running around with 240-275 buffed strength. Not to mention we're lowering their already low CON 175 points!

The woe is me crap is getting old. Too many stupid specs, bad gear, bad play lead to SBs getting dumptered.

Would the story be different without this sword proc? Totally but for now we have it so use it.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:39 PM by Spewy
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 4:41 PM
If you're getting out-dpsed by a brehon either you suck or your spec/template does. Obviously statistical anomalies will happen and they will kill you occasionally but in a straight up dps race you should not be losing. There are no issues with LA outside of what has already been identified.

Armor tables, shard skin pots, and lack of 1 step evade stun(major lack of utility). Sb's get a ridiculous str/con debuff proc that goes off every fight to make up for it.

Stop trying to force high LA or wierd high weapon builds at low RR you're only doing yourself a disservice as your going to be giving up CS/envenom damage and utility to do it.

come 1v1 me you will see if I suck
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by Mavella
If you're getting out-dpsed by r3s regularly I don't think I need to.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:45 PM by Spewy
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:41 PM
If you're getting out-dpsed by r3s regularly I don't think I need to.

you are funny. where do you see regularly? I am talking about BladeShade
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:47 PM by Spewy
anyway pointless to talk with people like you which are here to troll.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:51 PM by Mavella
And I explained exactly why you shouldn't be having issues from a R3 bladeshade after you debuff them. Outside of getting RNGed of course.

And I'm not here to troll. I play SB and do fine. Do I wish I had easy evade stun? Yup. I use the tools I'm given and seem to be able to 1v1 bladeshade bladeranger and slash inf just fine. Wonder why that is?
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:00 PM by Raec
Do not forget the lev 17 str debuff poison, greater weaking poison which should stack on top of the ws/con + s/c + desease.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:01 PM by inoeth
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:28 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 2:20 PM
so you basicly confess here that you simply dont know and just guess that there must have been a change to dw/cd mechanic aswell.

let me ask you a question:

if there was a change, why dont you find any information about that on the internet? and why is there much information about how i said the mechanic works?

you have a point there that you say it needs to be tested though.
and actually i would do the tests but i dont have an active account anymore and i dont want to subscribe.

If by "just guess" you mean starting with 2 known formulas that are supposed to do the same in the end and knowing that one of them changed and making the same adjustment to the other, then yes.

Why is there much information on .68?
The same reason people still believe a single growth rate that's used to multiply base damage defines how styles work in daoc despite LA, PA, BS and more proving that it is not the case
The same reason many people still believe AoM reduces CC time
The same reason people believe every single buff on a pet increases the absorb
The same reason many many other things are said to be the case when they are not
The same reason many believe 51 comp spec is the cap
The same reason some believe resists from items / buffs / whatever actually affect the resist rate

They either at some point were tested to be that way with later tests that proved those earlier tests wrong and those were ignored / aren't that well known, nobody bothered to retest or it actually changed and both, the earlier and later testes, were correct for whenever they were made. Or, simply, someone heard a rumor and it was spread and nobody bothered to ever really test it / contrary results were ignored, as is for example the case for the resists affecting resist rate.

You can even now still find a lot more recent references to .34 on MH and OH for LA than the results of the more recent tests / after the removal of duelist reflexes.

And in this particular case, since I don't see a reason to assume that the basic premise of those 2 mechanics was changed, I don't see the need to most likely waste multiple hours on testing this. But as I said, if someone wants to see a nerf on dw/cd and wants to potentially waste many hours they are welcome to test it on pend. If it actually turns out that the adjustment was only made to LA it will be reverted for cd/dw. Given the way sos breaking works I wouldn't be too surprised if they abandoned all reason in more places and LA and cd/dw are no longer the same for unstyled damage, however I consider it unlikely and just not worth our testing time.

A sufficient player test here would require multiple combat logs with time stamps at different dw/cd spec points, at least a very low and a very high spec, of at least 10000 swings with a video of at least the first 10 minutes of the test per spec where both the time as well as spec is shown which has to match the start of the combat log. The 10000 swings should have at most a variance of a couple % whereas only 1000 swings if you're "lucky" could put you well within the other formula.

im sorry to say that, keep in mind i dont want to offend you, but that are strawman arguments and whataboutism. only because ppl think other stuff is like a or b doesnt mean that dw/cd mechanic is. also i dont know where you found information about the .34 scaling to be right today... all i find clearly states that this is the OLD version. you constantly argue that ppl dont bring test results or any other evidence, but you yourself do changes based on random? sure it could very well be that there was a change but actually i dont remember that and if it was like that there surely would be something on the web about it... i mean come on thats a huge change imo, but nobody mentioning this? i cant believe that.

hopefully the will be someone with an active live account who wants to test that.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:03 PM by Mavella
Raec wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:00 PM
Do not forget the lev 17 str debuff poison, greater weaking poison which should stack on top of the ws/con + s/c + desease.

I haven't tried that cause I figured it would get resisted like crazy. What kind of resist rates do you see on it?
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:07 PM by Raec
I cant see cause i dont play, just lurk the forum spreading pillols of wisdom. On genesis it was fine, should be fine also here considering u can just /switch your left hand also for a couple of rounds and use it as a cherry on the pie
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:11 PM by gruenesschaf
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:01 PM
im sorry to say that, keep in mind i dont want to offend you, but that are strawman arguments and whataboutism. only because ppl think other stuff is like a or b doesnt mean that dw/cd mechanic is. also i dont know where you found information about the .34 scaling to be right today... all i find clearly states that this is the OLD version. you constantly argue that ppl dont bring test results or any other evidence, but you yourself do changes based on random? sure it could very well be that there was a change but actually i dont remember that and if it was like that there surely would be something on the web about it... i mean come on thats a huge change imo, but nobody mentioning this? i cant believe that.

hopefully the will be someone with an active live account who wants to test that.

What is it that you don't understand on there being the property of DW/CD and LA doing the same unstyled damage with the old formula and hence when you know one of those formulas changed, because of tests, why would you consider keeping that property a random change, especially given that when those old values were found out an RA existed, duelist reflexes, that in mid increased LA damage and in alb/hib increased offhand hit chance? I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume both changed and not wanting to waste 10+ hours on testing it is hence also reasonable.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:11 PM by Mavella
Raec wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:07 PM
I cant see cause i dont play, just lurk the forum spreading pillols of wisdom. On genesis it was fine, should be fine also here considering u can just /switch your left hand also for a couple of rounds and use it as a cherry on the pie

Guess I'll have to test it out!
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:19 PM by Raec
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:11 PM
Raec wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:07 PM
I cant see cause i dont play, just lurk the forum spreading pillols of wisdom. On genesis it was fine, should be fine also here considering u can just /switch your left hand also for a couple of rounds and use it as a cherry on the pie

Guess I'll have to test it out!

At least all those backpack blades once used for poison reapply would not rust
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:26 PM by Mavella
Well I keep 2 extra dots an extra enervate and extra disease for purges/adds. I need I need more swords!
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:07 PM by Shadowblade1
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 5:31 PM
Because luri and elves are already behind what 30-35 str compared to Norse at a base and when you drop them 58 points combined with enervating and disease you are practically cutting their effective strength in half. This isn't rocket science and I did admit the armor tables are a big deal for slash but the amount of strength you can debuff these already low strength races is comical.

Just from the sword proc, racial difference and disease that's gonna be between 80-100 flat str difference after both parties are enervated which is HUGE when stealthers are running around with 240-275 buffed strength. Not to mention we're lowering their already low CON 175 points!

The woe is me crap is getting old. Too many stupid specs, bad gear, bad play lead to SBs getting dumptered.

Would the story be different without this sword proc? Totally but for now we have it so use it.

I may be reading what you're saying incorrectly, but enervating doesn't effect STR any longer. Could be you're just referencing the lowering of WS as a hit to DPS in general, which of course is correct.

I do feel its a shame that SB are kind of forced to go sword to rely on that proc. And a sword that isn't even statted for us to boot. But we mostly strive for weaponless templates anyway.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:40 PM by Mavella
Yes but when I say flat 80-100 difference in strength I'm talking racial difference(30-35), TG sword proc (58), and the potential for them to be diseased and I am not (15str average probably). I've fought plenty of assassins that do not disease. I am now learning of the potential of another 44str debuff from the lvl 17 poison which could be just silly if that does work.

This is all in addition to the WS debuff but I assume that is going to be the same between both parties unless someone purges obviously.

And I agree we shouldn't HAVE to rely on it but when we have it and we lack in other areas it is a nice trade off in my opinion.

Again the issues are shard skin pots, armor tables, 1 step evade stun. Not DW/CD vs LA like the cry babies would like to make others believe. The situation is not THAT grim.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:49 PM by Seosaidh
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:40 PM
Yes but when I say flat 80-100 difference in strength I'm talking racial difference(30-35), TG sword proc (58), and the potential for them to be diseased and I am not (15str average probably). I've fought plenty of assassins that do not disease. I am now learning of the potential of another 44str debuff from the lvl 17 poison which could be just silly if that does work.

This is all in addition to the WS debuff but I assume that is going to be the same between both parties unless someone purges obviously.

And I agree we shouldn't HAVE to rely on it but when we have it and we lack in other areas it is a nice trade off in my opinion.

Again the issues are shard skin pots, armor tables, 1 step evade stun. Not DW/CD vs LA like the cry babies would like to make others believe. The situation is not THAT grim.

But does not the fact that luris and infils have the possibility to spec thrust/pierce which is dex/str alleviate that? Now if we are speaking slash, then yes they are affected by it as much as SBs. Only downsides then is that they still get after evade stun and better resist tables.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:58 PM by Mavella
Seosaidh wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:49 PM
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:40 PM
Yes but when I say flat 80-100 difference in strength I'm talking racial difference(30-35), TG sword proc (58), and the potential for them to be diseased and I am not (15str average probably). I've fought plenty of assassins that do not disease. I am now learning of the potential of another 44str debuff from the lvl 17 poison which could be just silly if that does work.

This is all in addition to the WS debuff but I assume that is going to be the same between both parties unless someone purges obviously.

And I agree we shouldn't HAVE to rely on it but when we have it and we lack in other areas it is a nice trade off in my opinion.

Again the issues are shard skin pots, armor tables, 1 step evade stun. Not DW/CD vs LA like the cry babies would like to make others believe. The situation is not THAT grim.

But does not the fact that luris and infils have the possibility to spec thrust/pierce which is dex/str alleviate that? Now if we are speaking slash, then yes they are affected by it as much as SBs. Only downsides then is that they still get after evade stun and better resist tables.

Yes but people are making the "but the 20% damage difference!" specifically about slash specs. Obviously all the extra str differences and debuffs I'm talking about only impact thrust/pierce users half as much. Mid leather is also resistant to thrust damage anyway.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 8:00 PM by dante`afk
The takeaway from the last 5 pages: At RR7+ SB do damage.

No shit Sherlock. After being able to afford Purge5, Vanish and Mop6+ we finally can put points into Aug Str/Con and MoA.

M-I-N-D-B-L-O-W-I-N-G

Turns out our counterparts have been doing that without all those RA's since RR3.
Tue 19 Mar 2019 9:28 PM by Mavella
I must've missed all these Brehon terminators on my way to R6. Lucky me!
Tue 19 Mar 2019 11:01 PM by florin
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 8:00 PM
The takeaway from the last 5 pages: At RR7+ SB do damage.

No shit Sherlock. After being able to afford Purge5, Vanish and Mop6+ we finally can put points into Aug Str/Con and MoA.

M-I-N-D-B-L-O-W-I-N-G

Turns out our counterparts have been doing that without all those RA's since RR3.
Cause everyone else gets those for free. Look I understand the squeaky wheel victim game - doesn’t work. Sbs are more than fine on damage and kills enough so that a few of you are cocky enough to around unstealthed. Me thinks the lady doth protest too much
Wed 20 Mar 2019 1:12 AM by Mauriac
Mavella wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 7:40 PM
Yes but when I say flat 80-100 difference in strength I'm talking racial difference(30-35), TG sword proc (58), and the potential for them to be diseased and I am not (15str average probably). I've fought plenty of assassins that do not disease. I am now learning of the potential of another 44str debuff from the lvl 17 poison which could be just silly if that does work.

This is all in addition to the WS debuff but I assume that is going to be the same between both parties unless someone purges obviously.

And I agree we shouldn't HAVE to rely on it but when we have it and we lack in other areas it is a nice trade off in my opinion.

Again the issues are shard skin pots, armor tables, 1 step evade stun. Not DW/CD vs LA like the cry babies would like to make others believe. The situation is not THAT grim.

While you frequently make good points I have to disagree with you here. The fact that going for a specific sword (which you need to carry multiple of if you want to apply the necessary poisons) which also means requiring a MH free temp to be competitive is a bit ridiculous in and of itself. Not to mention, 90% of this discussion has revolved around the SB vs NS/INF conversation. Extrapolate the target list to a larger pool to include all the other classes in the game. Infs/NS do not suffer from the same problem SBs do when it comes to target selection. Everyone can kill casters, that's a given. Once you start talking heavy tanks, light tanks, friars, VWs, its a totally different ballgame. The armor tables limit the potential targets an SB can pick from substantially more than our counterparts. It's a wider problem that just SB vs Inf/NS
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:12 AM by Mavella
Unfortunately sin vs sin has and will always be a game of the haves and have nots. If you want to maximize your chances of success you DO need that 25-30 plat temp and golf bag of weapons, you do need all possible pots, charges running at all times. The more time you spend in the field winning fights or getting successful ganks means more RPs/hr and faster RRs up. If you don't invest the time to equip your utility belt with all the gadgets don't expect to be as successful as someone that does.

As for slash being bad vs non-assassin targets, I don't really understand that point. We are neutral vs ALL alb armor and gain a bonus vs scale. That leaves Bards and BMs as non stealthers that have strong armor vs slash.

I think any stealther no matter the realm is going to think twice about opening on a hybrids/heavy/light tank unless all their charges are up and their RAs are off cooldown. The loss of 25% defense pen on duel wielding impacted us all.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:06 AM by inoeth
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:11 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Mar 2019 6:01 PM
im sorry to say that, keep in mind i dont want to offend you, but that are strawman arguments and whataboutism. only because ppl think other stuff is like a or b doesnt mean that dw/cd mechanic is. also i dont know where you found information about the .34 scaling to be right today... all i find clearly states that this is the OLD version. you constantly argue that ppl dont bring test results or any other evidence, but you yourself do changes based on random? sure it could very well be that there was a change but actually i dont remember that and if it was like that there surely would be something on the web about it... i mean come on thats a huge change imo, but nobody mentioning this? i cant believe that.

hopefully the will be someone with an active live account who wants to test that.

What is it that you don't understand on there being the property of DW/CD and LA doing the same unstyled damage with the old formula and hence when you know one of those formulas changed, because of tests, why would you consider keeping that property a random change, especially given that when those old values were found out an RA existed, duelist reflexes, that in mid increased LA damage and in alb/hib increased offhand hit chance? I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume both changed and not wanting to waste 10+ hours on testing it is hence also reasonable.

reasonable but not confirmed thats a difference
and yet nobody has proven me wrong
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:09 AM by jelzinga_EU
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:06 AM
reasonable but not confirmed thats a difference
and yet nobody has proven me wrong

This is not how any (reasonable) discussion works. You're making an exceptional claim and that requires exceptional proof. The burden of proof lies at you, not him. If you claim that LA and CD/DW work differently on live than show it - and they will change it accordingly.

If you don't show proof - stuff just stays how it is as that is the most reasonable assumption on how it works.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:29 AM by inoeth
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 9:09 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 7:06 AM
reasonable but not confirmed thats a difference
and yet nobody has proven me wrong

This is not how any (reasonable) discussion works. You're making an exceptional claim and that requires exceptional proof. The burden of proof lies at you, not him. If you claim that LA and CD/DW work differently on live than show it - and they will change it accordingly.

If you don't show proof - stuff just stays how it is as that is the most reasonable assumption on how it works.

i understand that and its totally ok to do so... what i dont like is that gruenes acted like this case was true and confirmed in the first place and called me an idiot, well knowing that he was just assuming.
on the other hand claiming there was a change because it would be "logic", but without any kind of evidence, is very questionable imo..... im an engineer and if i would do that at work, i would lose my job.

whats the problem with saying i dont know, i assume something, but when you know better bring some evidence and we will change it.... would have saved us alot of discussion...
Wed 20 Mar 2019 12:50 PM by gruenesschaf
inoeth wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 10:29 AM
i understand that and its totally ok to do so... what i dont like is that gruenes acted like this case was true and confirmed in the first place and called me an idiot, well knowing that he was just assuming.
on the other hand claiming there was a change because it would be "logic", but without any kind of evidence, is very questionable imo..... im an engineer and if i would do that at work, i would lose my job.

whats the problem with saying i dont know, i assume something, but when you know better bring some evidence and we will change it.... would have saved us alot of discussion...

I did not call you an idiot, I just said it's pointless to discuss those mechanics with someone who rejects these 2 premises, which are at the very core of how LA and cd/dw were balanced:
1) The scaling of both, la and cd/dw, was .68 per spec point in OF and, ignoring haste effect (by for example using the same weapon speed in both hands), the unstyled damage was always the same. You argued that LA had an advantage over DW the entire time in daoc and thereby rejected this. The test that showed this to be the case is afaik also the test that figured out that it's .68 for both mechanics in the first place.
2) That an 80% offhand hit chance for 100% damage is different from an 100% offhand hit chance for 80% damage in the average case. They are exactly the same which is why / how, with the same scaling for LA and DW/CD and ignoring the haste effect, both mechanics do the same unstyled damage.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 4:13 PM by Seosaidh
...
[/quote]
2) That an 80% offhand hit chance for 100% damage is different from an 100% offhand hit chance for 80% damage in the average case. They are exactly the same which is why / how, with the same scaling for LA and DW/CD and ignoring the haste effect, both mechanics do the same unstyled damage.
[/quote]

Just our of curiosity. For DW/CD does the mechanic works in such a way that means there is an 80% chance for it to hit for full dmg, or is it like LA that it swings?

Because LA swings are evaded pretty consistently if I recall correctly. Wouldn't this mean the dmg is skewed in favour of DW/CD if they get a free hit with the offhand 8/10 swings as opposed to LA which swings but has the possibility to be evaded etc. , which would mean we miss out on the dmg?

Not an expert just curious.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 4:48 PM by Mavella
If they are specced for a 80% chance to swing and if it does they it does hit check(will swing unstyled with no to-hit bonuses of course, I believe the normal miss rate is 85% with no hit bonuses) then defenses check to see if it gets blocked/parried/evaded.

Just because it swings doesn't mean it hits. But if it does swing they would get the haste bonus if they use slow/fast for that attack round. This bonus LA gets every round. This makes the per hit damage lower but the damage over time should be about equal.
Wed 20 Mar 2019 5:34 PM by Mauriac
Mavella wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 6:12 AM
Unfortunately sin vs sin has and will always be a game of the haves and have nots. If you want to maximize your chances of success you DO need that 25-30 plat temp and golf bag of weapons, you do need all possible pots, charges running at all times. The more time you spend in the field winning fights or getting successful ganks means more RPs/hr and faster RRs up. If you don't invest the time to equip your utility belt with all the gadgets don't expect to be as successful as someone that does.

As for slash being bad vs non-assassin targets, I don't really understand that point. We are neutral vs ALL alb armor and gain a bonus vs scale. That leaves Bards and BMs as non stealthers that have strong armor vs slash.

I think any stealther no matter the realm is going to think twice about opening on a hybrids/heavy/light tank unless all their charges are up and their RAs are off cooldown. The loss of 25% defense pen on duel wielding impacted us all.

Which brought us to the discussion about dodger in the other thread
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:46 AM by Mauriac
on a side note, viper is now dead. im pretty sure most sneaks dropped viper for MoP (i certainly did) and it definitely outperforms viper in every way now. hurray for nerfing an ability to uselessness. only thing worse right now is charge lol
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:51 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:46 AM
on a side note, viper is now dead. im pretty sure most sneaks dropped viper for MoP (i certainly did) and it definitely outperforms viper in every way now. hurray for nerfing an ability to uselessness. only thing worse right now is charge lol
I'm glad the damage of envenom is nerfed as is everyone else who thinks it's cheese....
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:27 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:51 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:46 AM
on a side note, viper is now dead. im pretty sure most sneaks dropped viper for MoP (i certainly did) and it definitely outperforms viper in every way now. hurray for nerfing an ability to uselessness. only thing worse right now is charge lol
I'm glad the damage of envenom is nerfed as is everyone else who thinks it's cheese....

i just hope you will be just as logical and supportive when its your class(es) that are up for a nerf next because.... reasons? who the hell needs logic anyway. this is dark age of camelot ocasio-cortez edition, no logic, facts or intelligence needed, just bring pitchforks.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:44 AM by Riac
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:27 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:51 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:46 AM
on a side note, viper is now dead. im pretty sure most sneaks dropped viper for MoP (i certainly did) and it definitely outperforms viper in every way now. hurray for nerfing an ability to uselessness. only thing worse right now is charge lol
I'm glad the damage of envenom is nerfed as is everyone else who thinks it's cheese....

i just hope you will be just as logical and supportive when its your class(es) that are up for a nerf next because.... reasons? who the hell needs logic anyway. this is dark age of camelot ocasio-cortez edition, no logic, facts or intelligence needed, just bring pitchforks.

rofl ive been waiting for someone to drop a political ref.

just ignore bradekes. i wish he'd just go back to the thread where he was advocating for the 2h wardens lol
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:04 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:27 AM
i just hope you will be just as logical and supportive when its your class(es) that are up for a nerf next because.... reasons? who the hell needs logic anyway. this is dark age of camelot ocasio-cortez edition, no logic, facts or intelligence needed, just bring pitchforks.

I already was logical and supportive to my classes nerf boi.. I helped nerf NS nuke because it was found to be gaining bonuses it wasnt supposed to... Now if you'd stop complaining about stuff that was broken it'd be nice...
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:14 AM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:04 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:27 AM
i just hope you will be just as logical and supportive when its your class(es) that are up for a nerf next because.... reasons? who the hell needs logic anyway. this is dark age of camelot ocasio-cortez edition, no logic, facts or intelligence needed, just bring pitchforks.

I already was logical and supportive to my classes nerf boi.. I helped nerf NS nuke because it was found to be gaining bonuses it wasnt supposed to... Now if you'd stop complaining about stuff that was broken it'd be nice...

my hero
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:18 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:04 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:27 AM
i just hope you will be just as logical and supportive when its your class(es) that are up for a nerf next because.... reasons? who the hell needs logic anyway. this is dark age of camelot ocasio-cortez edition, no logic, facts or intelligence needed, just bring pitchforks.

I already was logical and supportive to my classes nerf boi.. I helped nerf NS nuke because it was found to be gaining bonuses it wasnt supposed to... Now if you'd stop complaining about stuff that was broken it'd be nice...

i stopped listening at the point you said "boi" in a post on the internet. that way i could avoid the guaranteed nonsense that came after.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:25 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:18 AM
i stopped listening at the point you said "boi" in a post on the internet. that way i could avoid the guaranteed nonsense that came after.

Sounds like plenty of other successful non-whining SB have said SB are just fine... Note how not one NS came into forums complaining they nerfed DD damage, you've already proven you can't handle a balance change get over yourself...
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:30 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:25 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:18 AM
i stopped listening at the point you said "boi" in a post on the internet. that way i could avoid the guaranteed nonsense that came after.

Sounds like plenty of other successful non-whining SB have said SB are just fine... Note how not one NS came into forums complaining they nerfed DD damage, you've already proven you can't handle a balance change get over yourself...

its very difficult to communicate concepts that require complex thought or even thought alone to you obviously but i'll try.

i never said anything about envenom, viper, or balance. I said, if you bother to go back and read, that viper got nerfed into uselessness. This isn't anything other than a statement of fact. No one who knows how to play an SB/Inf,NS right is running viper. Fact. Theyr'e running MoP because it provides higher DPS. that isn't a gripe, thats an observable fact.

You on the other hand bring up NS and the DD which is a completely different situation. That affected one class and was a bug. Viper and envenom affects 3 classes and was a core mechanic since EVER. Secondly, the NS DD didn't lose any of its functionality as an interrupt, it simply does LESS damage now. The fact that NS can't pretend to be an eld anymore isn't exactly a bad thing. You can still nuke targets to finish them off, interrupt or keep them in combat if you want to. It's not like there is NO POINT IN USING THE ABILITY anymore. Contrast that with viper, where there is NO POINT IN USING THE ABILITY anymore.

Drink a beer, sleep on it even and you will realize that these are two different issues. Personally, i didnt notice the NS dd change because i was never getting nuked by them to begin with except maybe once ever? So personally, i dont really care. maybe others did, i didnt.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:34 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:30 AM
i never said anything about envenom, viper, or balance. I said, if you bother to go back and read, that viper got nerfed into uselessness. This isn't anything other than a statement of fact. No one who knows how to play an SB/Inf,NS right is running viper. Fact. Theyr'e running MoP because it provides higher DPS. that isn't a gripe, thats an observable fact.

They also buffed it back up to the value it was at before they nerfed it??? So how did they nerf it to uselessness?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:46 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:34 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:30 AM
i never said anything about envenom, viper, or balance. I said, if you bother to go back and read, that viper got nerfed into uselessness. This isn't anything other than a statement of fact. No one who knows how to play an SB/Inf,NS right is running viper. Fact. Theyr'e running MoP because it provides higher DPS. that isn't a gripe, thats an observable fact.

They also buffed it back up to the value it was at before they nerfed it??? So how did they nerf it to uselessness?

except you're forgetting that since you can't envenom swap anymore the damage increase was negligible. I can spend 30 points for a dot that tics for around 96 instead of 48. ok good start. thats 48 more damage roughly ever 3 seconds. or i could spend less points and get MoP and basically get a guaranteed crit that is almost certainly going to be more than that multiple times per fight and can happen every 1.5 seconds. it doesnt take long to figure out that by comparison to MoP, viper is trash. say what you want about the envenom swapping mechanic in daoc, that is the only reason viper was ever worthwhile. now its a waste of RPs.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:50 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:46 AM
except you're forgetting that since you can't envenom swap anymore the damage increase was negligible. I can spend 30 points for a dot that tics for around 96 instead of 48. ok good start. thats 48 more damage roughly ever 3 seconds. or i could spend less points and get MoP and basically get a guaranteed crit that is almost certainly going to be more than that multiple times per fight and can happen every 1.5 seconds. it doesnt take long to figure out that by comparison to MoP, viper is trash. say what you want about the envenom swapping mechanic in daoc, that is the only reason viper was ever worthwhile. now its a waste of RPs.

I didn't forget... It goes right back to what I said earlier... You are complaining about a nerf, you're not complaining about the RA value... MoP is not guaranteed and the extra damage you deal is not a guaranteed value... 49% crit rate will probably out damage a poison dmg increase from viper, but it should??? as envenom was over performing, and justified a nerf and I don't understand why you think assassin should have a damage add that deals 200 dmg a round...
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:55 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:50 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:46 AM
except you're forgetting that since you can't envenom swap anymore the damage increase was negligible. I can spend 30 points for a dot that tics for around 96 instead of 48. ok good start. thats 48 more damage roughly ever 3 seconds. or i could spend less points and get MoP and basically get a guaranteed crit that is almost certainly going to be more than that multiple times per fight and can happen every 1.5 seconds. it doesnt take long to figure out that by comparison to MoP, viper is trash. say what you want about the envenom swapping mechanic in daoc, that is the only reason viper was ever worthwhile. now its a waste of RPs.

I didn't forget... It goes right back to what I said earlier... You are complaining about a nerf, you're not complaining about the RA value... MoP is not guaranteed and the extra damage you deal is not a guaranteed value... 49% crit rate will probably out damage a poison dmg increase from viper, but it should??? as envenom was over performing, and justified a nerf and I don't understand why you think assassin should have a damage add that deals 200 dmg a round...

in what universe did envenom ever do 200 damage a round?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:56 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:55 AM
except you're forgetting that since you can't envenom swap anymore the damage increase was negligible. I can spend 30 points for a dot that tics for around 96 instead of 48.

in what universe did envenom ever do 200 damage a round?

x2 weapons hitting a round as your SB...
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:59 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:56 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:55 AM
except you're forgetting that since you can't envenom swap anymore the damage increase was negligible. I can spend 30 points for a dot that tics for around 96 instead of 48.

in what universe did envenom ever do 200 damage a round?

x2 weapons hitting a round as your SB...

oh so you mean the universe where we have /switch which never existed before because no human ever could manage two weapon swaps in 1.5 seconds while managing everything else through an entire fight? so /switch is what put it over the top ya? thought so. as i said before and so did basically everyone else who bothered to think. goodnight.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:04 AM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:59 AM
oh so you mean the universe where we have /switch which never existed before because no human ever could manage two weapon swaps in 1.5 seconds while managing everything else through an entire fight? so /switch is what put it over the top ya? thought so. as i said before and so did basically everyone else who bothered to think. goodnight.

You are so back and forth and don't even know what you're typing.. you keep questioning or dismissing what I am saying and when I have a valid point you just try to throw it all out the window...

So let's just conclude your thoughts and I'll leave you to your night...

Mauriac wants to do 96 extra damage on every melee swing that lands, and then everyone should also subscribe to the idea that SB need buffs to their non-poison damage via crushing damage on demand. Devs can we please appease this man cause he has realistic views of how to balance a game.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:14 AM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:04 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:59 AM
oh so you mean the universe where we have /switch which never existed before because no human ever could manage two weapon swaps in 1.5 seconds while managing everything else through an entire fight? so /switch is what put it over the top ya? thought so. as i said before and so did basically everyone else who bothered to think. goodnight.

You are so back and forth and don't even know what you're typing.. you keep questioning or dismissing what I am saying and when I have a valid point you just try to throw it all out the window...

So let's just conclude your thoughts and I'll leave you to your night...

Mauriac wants to do 96 extra damage on every melee swing that lands, and then everyone should also subscribe to the idea that SB need buffs to their non-poison damage via crushing damage on demand. Devs can we please appease this man cause he has realistic views of how to balance a game.

my god you are dense. you dont even know the history of anything i've written on here about this topic clearly. let me summarize. try to keep up.

1) i said the problem with envenom was /switch which allowed it to be spammed and broke the mechanic, particularly for SBs because of LA. my solution was to either remove /switch, restrict it to 1 hand or put it on a timer or remove it from sneaks entirely
2) envenom nerf happend, this hit SBs harder because our overall damage is lower
3) i started campaigning for an SB damage adjustment OR crush damage since infs/NS have favorable changes to their dw/cd lines (off evade stun at 15 thrust for infs, dw stun for infs, cd stun for ns/ranger) and yet no adjustment of that kind was ever made to LA such as a side stun. Seeing as how infs/ns got a favorable adjustment that didnt exist at this patch level and that SBs generally under perform comparatively i felt that asking for something in compensation for the envenom nerf wasnt too much to ask.

now most likely, you're either going to wilfully misinterpret this (again), or fail to understand completely (again) and attribute something to me that i havent said (again) but maybe, just maybe, we can start communicating this time.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:37 AM by dante`afk
Folks, after 40 page you should have figured out who talks nonsense - just stop responding to those particular people and skip reading their posts.

There are 3 in here who never played stealther but know everything - and we are all only dreaming.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:41 AM by jhaerik
People keep listing SB OH always swings..... as an advantage. Care to explain WHY it's an advantage?

The reality is swinging MORE in a 1v1 for similar damage = bad. You're doing the same damage but opening yourself up to more reactionaries and hitting more armor procs.

Every single SB offhand swing is an evade stun waiting to kill you.... for jack crap damage. Also you are just taking extra shard skin damage for no reason. There was a reason Mid originally had higher LA damage. It was to deal with this downside. Our DW mechanics (LA and H2H for that matter, though its not considered DW mechanically, for the sake of this argument the point applies) have a glaring weakness in that it makes up open to enemy reactionaries. The fact that we do "similar dps" (and in the case of SB I'd easily argue less) doesn't matter when we are eating reactionaries left and right....
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:00 AM by Aladdin
SB gets 2H - enough said.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM by inoeth
Aladdin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:00 AM
SB gets 2H - enough said.

lol again this stupid argument... 2h is totally gimp here!!
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:34 AM by inoeth
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:41 AM
People keep listing SB OH always swings..... as an advantage. Care to explain WHY it's an advantage?

The reality is swinging MORE in a 1v1 for similar damage = bad. You're doing the same damage but opening yourself up to more reactionaries and hitting more armor procs.

Every single SB offhand swing is an evade stun waiting to kill you.... for jack crap damage. Also you are just taking extra shard skin damage for no reason. There was a reason Mid originally had higher LA damage. It was to deal with this downside. Our DW mechanics (LA and H2H for that matter, though its not considered DW mechanically, for the sake of this argument the point applies) have a glaring weakness in that it makes up open to enemy reactionaries. The fact that we do "similar dps" (and in the case of SB I'd easily argue less) doesn't matter when we are eating reactionaries left and right....

offhand evade do not open up reactionarys
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:39 AM by florin
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
Aladdin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:00 AM
SB gets 2H - enough said.

lol again this stupid argument... 2h is totally gimp here!!

How so? Compared to what?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 AM by jhaerik
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:34 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:41 AM
People keep listing SB OH always swings..... as an advantage. Care to explain WHY it's an advantage?

The reality is swinging MORE in a 1v1 for similar damage = bad. You're doing the same damage but opening yourself up to more reactionaries and hitting more armor procs.

Every single SB offhand swing is an evade stun waiting to kill you.... for jack crap damage. Also you are just taking extra shard skin damage for no reason. There was a reason Mid originally had higher LA damage. It was to deal with this downside. Our DW mechanics (LA and H2H for that matter, though its not considered DW mechanically, for the sake of this argument the point applies) have a glaring weakness in that it makes up open to enemy reactionaries. The fact that we do "similar dps" (and in the case of SB I'd easily argue less) doesn't matter when we are eating reactionaries left and right....

offhand evade do not open up reactionarys

Lol.

Since when dude?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:51 AM by Seosaidh
To be honest I feel that the lack of an after evade stun really hurts SBs Vs other assassin's in terms of utility and dmg. It seems a bit unfair especially since the other get the stun in both weaponlines?

An after evAde stun is often a showstopper. The Inf/NS get one stun off then proceed with a couple of hamstring followed up by the rest of the chain before the stun wears off. That is some serious dmg, and the only way to alleviate this in any meaningful way is to spec for Purge 5 which in turn seems a bit excessive to me.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:13 PM by Bradekes
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 AM
Lol.

Since when dude?

Since forever dude.. Just like offhand fumbles don't actually make you fumble
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:15 PM by dante`afk
Seosaidh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:51 AM
To be honest I feel that the lack of an after evade stun really hurts SBs Vs other assassin's in terms of utility and dmg. It seems a bit unfair especially since the other get the stun in both weaponlines?

An after evAde stun is often a showstopper. The Inf/NS get one stun off then proceed with a couple of hamstring followed up by the rest of the chain before the stun wears off. That is some serious dmg, and the only way to alleviate this in any meaningful way is to spec for Purge 5 which in turn seems a bit excessive to me.

Good thing for us is 99% of infi/ns are so bad, they don't repoisen after purging
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:17 PM by inoeth
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:34 AM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:41 AM
People keep listing SB OH always swings..... as an advantage. Care to explain WHY it's an advantage?

The reality is swinging MORE in a 1v1 for similar damage = bad. You're doing the same damage but opening yourself up to more reactionaries and hitting more armor procs.

Every single SB offhand swing is an evade stun waiting to kill you.... for jack crap damage. Also you are just taking extra shard skin damage for no reason. There was a reason Mid originally had higher LA damage. It was to deal with this downside. Our DW mechanics (LA and H2H for that matter, though its not considered DW mechanically, for the sake of this argument the point applies) have a glaring weakness in that it makes up open to enemy reactionaries. The fact that we do "similar dps" (and in the case of SB I'd easily argue less) doesn't matter when we are eating reactionaries left and right....

offhand evade do not open up reactionarys

Lol.

Since when dude?

gruensschaf stated it earlier in this thread
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:20 PM by inoeth
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:39 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
Aladdin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:00 AM
SB gets 2H - enough said.

lol again this stupid argument... 2h is totally gimp here!!

How so? Compared to what?

it does almost the same dmg but its more likely you miss the cd or you get a quickcast mezz in the time
no 1.5k 2h pas here
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:57 PM by Bradekes
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:39 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
lol again this stupid argument... 2h is totally gimp here!!

How so? Compared to what?

it does almost the same dmg but its more likely you miss the cd or you get a quickcast mezz in the time
no 1.5k 2h pas here

I'd say you're more likely to get evaded, not miss... 2h would be more viable vs a champ or merc and targets with higher parry and less evade/block
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:05 PM by Padatoo
Seosaidh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:51 AM
The Inf/NS get one stun off then proceed with a couple of hamstring followed up by the rest of the chain before the stun wears off.

FASCINATING
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM by Amp_Phetamine
This crap show of a QQ whine thread is still going on?

The three realms are not mirrored, should not be mirrored, and hopefully will not be mirrored in the future. That is the beauty of DAoC.

Learn your classes strengths and, more importantly, your weaknesses and do the best you can to overcome them.

Shadowblades are by no means as inept as what is being portrayed here. God the QQ here could fill a bathtub.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:51 PM by inoeth
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM
This crap show of a QQ whine thread is still going on?

The three realms are not mirrored, should not be mirrored, and hopefully will not be mirrored in the future. That is the beauty of DAoC.

Learn your classes strengths and, more importantly, your weaknesses and do the best you can to overcome them.

Shadowblades are by no means as inept as what is being portrayed here. God the QQ here could fill a bathtub.

can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:52 PM by Amp_Phetamine
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM
This crap show of a QQ whine thread is still going on?

The three realms are not mirrored, should not be mirrored, and hopefully will not be mirrored in the future. That is the beauty of DAoC.

Learn your classes strengths and, more importantly, your weaknesses and do the best you can to overcome them.

Shadowblades are by no means as inept as what is being portrayed here. God the QQ here could fill a bathtub.

can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!

There's nothing of value in this entire thread. It's a handful of posters fervently balling their eyes out that they have a natural disadvantage against elf blade nightshades.

Grow up.

Edit: I used "natural" disadvantage but a more accurate explanation would be an armor resist disadvantage. Regardless of the hit points and strength bonus they have in comparison, which of course is easily dismissed /ignored.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:54 PM by inoeth
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:52 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM
This crap show of a QQ whine thread is still going on?

The three realms are not mirrored, should not be mirrored, and hopefully will not be mirrored in the future. That is the beauty of DAoC.

Learn your classes strengths and, more importantly, your weaknesses and do the best you can to overcome them.

Shadowblades are by no means as inept as what is being portrayed here. God the QQ here could fill a bathtub.

can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!

There's nothing of value in this entire thread. It's a handful of posters fervently balling their eyes out that they have a natural disadvantage against elf blade nightshades.

Grow up.

can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!
if you are so grown up, then why are you even bother?
maybe not as grown up as you think
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:58 PM by Amp_Phetamine
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:54 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:52 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!

There's nothing of value in this entire thread. It's a handful of posters fervently balling their eyes out that they have a natural disadvantage against elf blade nightshades.

Grow up.

can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!
if you are so grown up, then why are you even bother?
maybe not as grown up as you think

I do have something of value to say and I've stated it. SB's are not as inept as you claim them to be, in fact, there are quite a few SB's that do extremely well. Maybe you should reach out to them and identify what they may be doing differently?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:10 PM by jhaerik
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:17 PM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:34 AM
offhand evade do not open up reactionarys

Lol.

Since when dude?

gruensschaf stated it earlier in this thread

Must be something else they flubbed up on this server.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:11 PM by jhaerik
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:58 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:54 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:52 PM
There's nothing of value in this entire thread. It's a handful of posters fervently balling their eyes out that they have a natural disadvantage against elf blade nightshades.

Grow up.

can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!
if you are so grown up, then why are you even bother?
maybe not as grown up as you think

I do have something of value to say and I've stated it. SB's are not as inept as you claim them to be, in fact, there are quite a few SB's that do extremely well. Maybe you should reach out to them and identify what they may be doing differently?

I dunno all the stealth on this server just seem to abuse killing blue cons for 12 hours on end.....

Moment they see a 50 they vanish and go watch TV for 15 minutes.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:13 PM by Amp_Phetamine
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:11 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:58 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:54 PM
can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!
if you are so grown up, then why are you even bother?
maybe not as grown up as you think

I do have something of value to say and I've stated it. SB's are not as inept as you claim them to be, in fact, there are quite a few SB's that do extremely well. Maybe you should reach out to them and identify what they may be doing differently?

I dunno all the stealth on this server just seem to abuse killing blue cons for 12 hours on end.....

Moment they see a 50 they vanish and go watch TV for 15 minutes.

That's just egregiously untrue.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:18 PM by Bradekes
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:10 PM
Must be something else they flubbed up on this server.

Where's your proof otherwise? SS someone using evade chain after evading just your offhand.. This should be easy just get one of these other whiny SB from this thread to help you test..
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:31 PM by Mavella
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:58 PM
I do have something of value to say and I've stated it. SB's are not as inept as you claim them to be, in fact, there are quite a few SB's that do extremely well. Maybe you should reach out to them and identify what they may be doing differently?

There are merits to the complaints about blades NS/ranger and slash infs getting access to evade stuns which is something they never had access to at this patch level. They used to have to give up that utility for that superior damage vs mid leather and studded. NSs got it best with a 4sec stun 1 stepper. Not the worlds longest stun but if you don't purge it taking 2 extra unanswered swings in this match up is going to increase your loss chances significantly. At least slash Infs are stuck with a lame 2 stepper like SBs but the stun style itself is available at 34 unlike 39 sword for SBs. This of course allows them to retain the utility as they RR up and keep dropping slash down to increase CS or DW and 44 DW at higher RR will replace their slash stun. I already explained why SBs are pigeonholed into swords only on this server so don't even bring up the axe evade chain I know it's stunstyle is available at 34. SBs will obviously get access to frost gaze eventually but if they want to keep high CS that ain't gonna be until rr9.

Shardskin pots also impact LA users more than CD/DW users which is also an issue.

Throw the armor resist tables into the mix and it's obvious SBs are at a disadvantage in both these match ups. The utility defecit was remedied for slash/blades all while allowing them to keep the superior damage. I think the situation would be even worse across the board if sb's didn't have access to the str/con debuff proc fortunately we do.

Sorry but that's the reality.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:40 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mavella wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:31 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:58 PM
I do have something of value to say and I've stated it. SB's are not as inept as you claim them to be, in fact, there are quite a few SB's that do extremely well. Maybe you should reach out to them and identify what they may be doing differently?

There are merits to the complaints about blades NS/ranger and slash infs getting access to evade stuns which is something they never had access to at this patch level. They used to have to give up that utility for that superior damage vs mid leather and studded. NSs got it best with a 4sec stun 1 stepper. Not the worlds longest stun but if you don't purge it taking 2 extra unanswered swings in this match up is going to increase your loss chances significantly. At least slash Infs are stuck with a lame 2 stepper like SBs but the stun style itself is available at 34 unlike 39 sword SBs this of course allows them to retain the utility as they RR up and keep dropping slash down to increase CS or DW and 44 DW at higher RR will replace their slash stun. I already explained why SBs are pigeonholed into swords only on this server so don't even bring up the axe evade chain I know it's stunstyle is available at 34. SBs will obviously get access to frost gaze eventually but if they want to keep high CS that ain't gonna be until rr9.

Shardskin pots also impact LA users more than CD/DW users which is also an issue.

Throw the armor resist tables into the mix and it's obvious SBs are at a disadvantage in both these match ups. The utility defecit was remedied for slash/blades all while allowing them to keep the superior damage. I think the situation would be a lot different across the board if sb's didn't have access to the str/con debuff proc.

Sorry but that's the reality.

I understand that's the reality. I also understand that it obviously frustrates some players; knowing they're at a disadvantage at times. I've also stated I would be in favor of SB's earning a 1 step evade stun in sword.

What need's to be eliminated is this delusional concept that SB's can't compete due to the previously listed issues that've been brought up.

This whole concept of assassins trying to equalize the archtype as similarly as possible is detrimental to the game; it's also something I've observed for years on postcount.

Let's not overshadow the fact that SB's also have a natural advantage to bladeshades in terms of Str and Con as well as the utilization of 2h.

I can't believe how few SB's I encounter don't take advantage of using a 2H, specifically when their opponent is stunned and debuffed.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 3:05 PM by Mavella
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:40 PM
I understand that's the reality. I also understand that it obviously frustrates some players; knowing they're at a disadvantage at times. I've also stated I would be in favor of SB's earning a 1 step evade stun in sword.

What need's to be eliminated is this delusional concept that SB's can't compete due to the previously listed issues that've been brought up.

This whole concept of assassins trying to equalize the archtype as similarly as possible is detrimental to the game; it's also something I've observed for years on postcount.

Let's not overshadow the fact that SB's also have a natural advantage to bladeshades in terms of Str and Con as well as the utilization of 2h.

I can't believe how few SB's I encounter don't take advantage of using a 2H, specifically when their opponent is stunned and debuffed.

Except when you give 3 classes access to utility they didn't have but SBs didn't really get anything in return that is taking equality away. It creatied an even greater hole that SBs have to dig themselves out of to even hope to win those fights.

Also 30-35str from Norse vs elf/luri isn't a huge deal compare to 20-22% damage difference. The TG sword proc in addition making it 80-100str does. I haven't ran into any NS or rangers running any sort of str/con debuff yet but maybe it's a matter of time. I know I did run into a slash inf who was using it so that guy must've known what he was doing(I lost that fight) . Without this stupid proc SBs would be at significant disadvantage every single encounter vs these classes, again with nothing in return for what they've
all gained and SBs did not.

Also running 2h in almost any situation is going to be a liability. LA simply does superior damage over time and you're less likely to be defended against(when the opponent isn't stunned of course) . You could certainly perf with it but the longer delay before CD goes off gives your targets more time to take defensive measures negating the element of surprise. How often do you see berserkers use a 2her? Pretty much never because LA is superior in every way.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:18 PM by dante`afk
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM
I keep getting decimated by mediocre SBs, please don't buff them. I'm having a hard time enough already.

FYP.



----


Why is it that non-stealthers in here cry the most?

Get the f out and stop pooping in here, it smells bad and no on needs to breath your air. Heck this forum doesn't even have an ignore function. People please stop quoting/responding to those guys.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:26 PM by Amp_Phetamine
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:18 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM
I keep getting decimated by mediocre SBs, please don't buff them. I'm having a hard time enough already.

FYP.



----


Why is it that non-stealthers in here cry the most?

Get the f out and stop pooping in here, it smells bad and no on needs to breath your air. Heck this forum doesn't even have an ignore function. People please stop quoting/responding to those guys.

I can't begin to comprehend the irony of what you just typed out.

I can understand your unwavering desire to surround yourself with only those that agree with your mindset. It's not very beneficial, quite detrimental, but hey, at least it'll make you feel better.

On a side note, Dante, you've literally offered nothing of value within these extensive 45 pages of garbage.

This thread should be deleted to be honest.

Edit: Actually, so far only Mavella and a few others (sorry, can't recall your names and too many pages to sift through) have actually made valid arguments with reasonable justification backing their claims.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:45 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:52 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM
This crap show of a QQ whine thread is still going on?

The three realms are not mirrored, should not be mirrored, and hopefully will not be mirrored in the future. That is the beauty of DAoC.

Learn your classes strengths and, more importantly, your weaknesses and do the best you can to overcome them.

Shadowblades are by no means as inept as what is being portrayed here. God the QQ here could fill a bathtub.

can you just stay out of here if you do not have something of value to say ?!

There's nothing of value in this entire thread. It's a handful of posters fervently balling their eyes out that they have a natural disadvantage against elf blade nightshades.

Grow up.

Edit: I used "natural" disadvantage but a more accurate explanation would be an armor resist disadvantage. Regardless of the hit points and strength bonus they have in comparison, which of course is easily dismissed /ignored.

dont forget that hib/alb got favorable changes to DW/CD, thrust in alb that did not exist on this patch level yet SBs don't get ANY of that same love in any of their spec lines. just throwing that out there. It has nothing to do with "mirroring" and has everything to do with two of the three assassins got love and the third got air biscuits and wind gravy.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:59 PM by florin
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:39 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
lol again this stupid argument... 2h is totally gimp here!!

How so? Compared to what?

it does almost the same dmg but its more likely you miss the cd or you get a quickcast mezz in the time
no 1.5k 2h pas here
well ive done 1.4+500crit on a shieldless caster and there’s was a 1.3k posted today in discord
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:13 PM by Riac
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:59 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:39 AM
How so? Compared to what?

it does almost the same dmg but its more likely you miss the cd or you get a quickcast mezz in the time
no 1.5k 2h pas here
well ive done 1.4+500crit on a shieldless caster and there’s was a 1.3k posted today in discord

probably not the best arguement for 2h considering this dude would have been murdered by pretty much anything, you could have probably PAed him with a weapon your not even specced to use and dumpstered him.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:17 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:26 PM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:18 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 1:14 PM
I keep getting decimated by mediocre SBs, please don't buff them. I'm having a hard time enough already.

FYP.



----


Why is it that non-stealthers in here cry the most?

Get the f out and stop pooping in here, it smells bad and no on needs to breath your air. Heck this forum doesn't even have an ignore function. People please stop quoting/responding to those guys.

I can't begin to comprehend the irony of what you just typed out.

I can understand your unwavering desire to surround yourself with only those that agree with your mindset. It's not very beneficial, quite detrimental, but hey, at least it'll make you feel better.

On a side note, Dante, you've literally offered nothing of value within these extensive 45 pages of garbage.

This thread should be deleted to be honest.

Edit: Actually, so far only Mavella and a few others (sorry, can't recall your names and too many pages to sift through) have actually made valid arguments with reasonable justification backing their claims.

honestly bro its because you are convinced SBs are pefectly fine. no one is saying SBs can't compete. we can kill people. But it is a LOT harder as an SB than for an inf or an NS by a glaringly obvious margin. You, for whatever reason, are pulling an ostrich move and either burying your head in the sand or simply ignoring obvious facts about the state of SBs on this shard. Mavella has been the most eloquent for sure. I've made some good points if i may say so myself despite our "disagreement" from the other day. I'm not sure why you cant just acknowledge that SBs are the weakest assassin and are the ONLY one on this server not to get any love of any kind. We're not asking to be top dog. just throw us a bone.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:33 PM by florin
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:13 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:59 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
it does almost the same dmg but its more likely you miss the cd or you get a quickcast mezz in the time
no 1.5k 2h pas here
well ive done 1.4+500crit on a shieldless caster and there’s was a 1.3k posted today in discord

probably not the best arguement for 2h considering this dude would have been murdered by pretty much anything, you could have probably PAed him with a weapon your not even specced to use and dumpstered him.
Ya but no need for cd once he is in the dumpster
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:37 PM by Riac
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:33 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:13 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:59 PM
well ive done 1.4+500crit on a shieldless caster and there’s was a 1.3k posted today in discord

probably not the best arguement for 2h considering this dude would have been murdered by pretty much anything, you could have probably PAed him with a weapon your not even specced to use and dumpstered him.
Ya but no need for cd once he is in the dumpster

i'm not really sure what you are getting at? are you saying 2h are good and somehow makes up for armor table disparities vs blade users?
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 PM by florin
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:37 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:33 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 10:13 PM
probably not the best arguement for 2h considering this dude would have been murdered by pretty much anything, you could have probably PAed him with a weapon your not even specced to use and dumpstered him.
Ya but no need for cd once he is in the dumpster

i'm not really sure what you are getting at? are you saying 2h are good and somehow makes up for armor table disparities vs blade users?

2h is good. La hitting both poisons good, more hp good l, perma haste effect good
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:44 PM by Riac
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:37 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:33 PM
Ya but no need for cd once he is in the dumpster

i'm not really sure what you are getting at? are you saying 2h are good and somehow makes up for armor table disparities vs blade users?

2h is good. La hitting both poisons good, more hp good l, perma haste effect good

i disagree 2h is not good, god forbid you fumble with that thing. might as well sit down.
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:53 PM by florin
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:44 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:37 PM
i'm not really sure what you are getting at? are you saying 2h are good and somehow makes up for armor table disparities vs blade users?

2h is good. La hitting both poisons good, more hp good l, perma haste effect good

i disagree 2h is not good, god forbid you fumble with that thing. might as well sit down.

Def situational - not against slammers and insta stunners.
Usually for when you think the PA will take them to around half life. Can’t say I’ve tried going 2h all the time though.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 7:04 AM by jhaerik
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 9:59 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 12:20 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:39 AM
How so? Compared to what?

it does almost the same dmg but its more likely you miss the cd or you get a quickcast mezz in the time
no 1.5k 2h pas here
well ive done 1.4+500crit on a shieldless caster and there’s was a 1.3k posted today in discord

Let me guess unbuffed caster that was untemped. Good job... I can also one shot the guy on a crit cave shammy bolt.

Nerf cave shammies.

The fact is if you were figthing any REAL opponent and you looked at a 8-10 second period... PA'ing with LA out would still do more damage. If one shotting unbuffed casters is a class feature.... think we'd all gladly trade that for NS spells, or Infi spec points. Or frankly... blunt damage. Slash on Mid is a terrible damage type. It's either neutral or restisted by all but hib scale. Where as blunt is neut or strong vs all but one armor type.
Sat 23 Mar 2019 7:11 AM by jhaerik
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:41 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:37 PM
florin wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:33 PM
Ya but no need for cd once he is in the dumpster

i'm not really sure what you are getting at? are you saying 2h are good and somehow makes up for armor table disparities vs blade users?

2h is good. La hitting both poisons good, more hp good l, perma haste effect good

Perma haste actually isn't all that good. It was good before the poison nerf. Now it's a liability. Better off with slower weapons. We are talking about what amounts to modern DAoC where everyone is running a TG chest and 150 ablatives and actually knows how to backup styles and runs shardskin pots solo. Many more swings for slightly better dps is NOT worth.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 12:55 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:26 PM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:18 PM
FYP.



----


Why is it that non-stealthers in here cry the most?

Get the f out and stop pooping in here, it smells bad and no on needs to breath your air. Heck this forum doesn't even have an ignore function. People please stop quoting/responding to those guys.

I can't begin to comprehend the irony of what you just typed out.

I can understand your unwavering desire to surround yourself with only those that agree with your mindset. It's not very beneficial, quite detrimental, but hey, at least it'll make you feel better.

On a side note, Dante, you've literally offered nothing of value within these extensive 45 pages of garbage.

This thread should be deleted to be honest.

Edit: Actually, so far only Mavella and a few others (sorry, can't recall your names and too many pages to sift through) have actually made valid arguments with reasonable justification backing their claims.

honestly bro its because you are convinced SBs are pefectly fine. no one is saying SBs can't compete. we can kill people. But it is a LOT harder as an SB than for an inf or an NS by a glaringly obvious margin. You, for whatever reason, are pulling an ostrich move and either burying your head in the sand or simply ignoring obvious facts about the state of SBs on this shard. Mavella has been the most eloquent for sure. I've made some good points if i may say so myself despite our "disagreement" from the other day. I'm not sure why you cant just acknowledge that SBs are the weakest assassin and are the ONLY one on this server not to get any love of any kind. We're not asking to be top dog. just throw us a bone.

I've consistently agree'd that SB's have an unfavorable matchup against blade shades. What my issue is internal complaints regarding 3 of the strongest arch-types in the game. Any kind of change that would benefit a shadow blade against a night shade could have detrimental effects on other classes as well. What I don't like seeing is half-hearted comments and buff suggestions being thrown out to benefit SB's against night shades without taking into consideration how potent assassins are against the rest of the classes in the game as well.

That's what caused the assassin issues in Live DAoC. They were constantly competing among one another and receiving buffs/tweaks that caused major power differentials between assassins and the rest of the classes. I do not want to see that here. I do not want to see assassins cleaning the house against every single class in the game given that both toons are of equal gear/rank/skill.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:27 PM by inoeth
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 12:55 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 4:26 PM
I can't begin to comprehend the irony of what you just typed out.

I can understand your unwavering desire to surround yourself with only those that agree with your mindset. It's not very beneficial, quite detrimental, but hey, at least it'll make you feel better.

On a side note, Dante, you've literally offered nothing of value within these extensive 45 pages of garbage.

This thread should be deleted to be honest.

Edit: Actually, so far only Mavella and a few others (sorry, can't recall your names and too many pages to sift through) have actually made valid arguments with reasonable justification backing their claims.

honestly bro its because you are convinced SBs are pefectly fine. no one is saying SBs can't compete. we can kill people. But it is a LOT harder as an SB than for an inf or an NS by a glaringly obvious margin. You, for whatever reason, are pulling an ostrich move and either burying your head in the sand or simply ignoring obvious facts about the state of SBs on this shard. Mavella has been the most eloquent for sure. I've made some good points if i may say so myself despite our "disagreement" from the other day. I'm not sure why you cant just acknowledge that SBs are the weakest assassin and are the ONLY one on this server not to get any love of any kind. We're not asking to be top dog. just throw us a bone.

I've consistently agree'd that SB's have an unfavorable matchup against blade shades. What my issue is internal complaints regarding 3 of the strongest arch-types in the game. Any kind of change that would benefit a shadow blade against a night shade could have detrimental effects on other classes as well. What I don't like seeing is half-hearted comments and buff suggestions being thrown out to benefit SB's against night shades without taking into consideration how potent assassins are against the rest of the classes in the game as well.

That's what caused the assassin issues in Live DAoC. They were constantly competing among one another and receiving buffs/tweaks that caused major power differentials between assassins and the rest of the classes. I do not want to see that here. I do not want to see assassins cleaning the house against every single class in the game given that both toons are of equal gear/rank/skill.

can you give any example why it would hurt other classes ? what kind of detrimental effects do you mean? you cat like this would be somethin completely new, in fact this is tested since years! all i read in all of your comments is "dont fix classes i dont play". the blunt ability is in the game for many many years and is one of the key features of the sb since. maybe we should talk about getting rid of dirty tricks or slam for merc, so you know what its like to get castrated.

again

gtfo when you dont have to say something useful.... all your claims are like a guru that tell his cult that the end of the world is near LOL
Sun 24 Mar 2019 2:53 PM by Cirath
This thread is a bit rediculous. The wailing and gnashing of teeth from some SB here is a bit over the top. As someone who plays a SB. AND a blade NS here I can offer some perspective. I feel the balance is fine. Blade shades are tougher for my SB, infs are tougher for my NS. I kill both. it really isn't an issue. Someone mentioned above that the old specs don't work here. 5 spec is trash. I tried it. 44cs or full LA are much better. Use your buffs, stack your debuffs, etc. If you gave my SB bludgeon I would absolutely DESTROY NS and Infs. It wouldn't even be close. I think theres a bunch of folks rolling assasin alts who are going out and getting rolled because they don't know what they are doing.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 3:32 PM by Mauriac
Cirath wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 2:53 PM
This thread is a bit rediculous. The wailing and gnashing of teeth from some SB here is a bit over the top. As someone who plays a SB. AND a blade NS here I can offer some perspective. I feel the balance is fine. Blade shades are tougher for my SB, infs are tougher for my NS. I kill both. it really isn't an issue. Someone mentioned above that the old specs don't work here. 5 spec is trash. I tried it. 44cs or full LA are much better. Use your buffs, stack your debuffs, etc. If you gave my SB bludgeon I would absolutely DESTROY NS and Infs. It wouldn't even be close. I think theres a bunch of folks rolling assasin alts who are going out and getting rolled because they don't know what they are doing.

i still want to hear why everyone thinks it's cool for infs and ns to get post 1.65 adjustments to their speclines and SBs dont. just asking.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:02 PM by phixion
That really is my only issue with assassin balance currently, if you're going to start implementing things for 1 assassin, then you have to do the same for the others.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:06 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 3:32 PM
i still want to hear why everyone thinks it's cool for infs and ns to get post 1.65 adjustments to their speclines and SBs dont. just asking.

Pretty sure stun chains in sword and axe have been adjusted for sb
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:09 PM by Riac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:06 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 3:32 PM
i still want to hear why everyone thinks it's cool for infs and ns to get post 1.65 adjustments to their speclines and SBs dont. just asking.

Pretty sure stun chains in sword and axe have been adjusted for sb

adjusted in what way?
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:18 PM by Bradekes
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:09 PM
adjusted in what way?

Valkyrie shield and frost cut were block styles now they are evade so you can use follow up for stuns
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:31 PM by Mauriac
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:18 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:09 PM
adjusted in what way?

Valkyrie shield and frost cut were block styles now they are evade so you can use follow up for stuns

i dont know about valkyrie shield. Frost cut was always off evade which is why critblades specced sword historically.

edit: and i havent looked into valkyrie shield but even if true its not a boon. axe has a stun (crap) but it has one. sword has a stun (crap) but it has one. LA has a stun, 2nd in a chain but its good and hits hard. what im talking about is giving slash infs stun in DW, bladeshades stun in CD, thrust infs 6 sec stun at 15 thrust. LA got nothing. I'd love to see a side stun but i'd really just be happy to have crush damage for 30 seconds.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 10:56 PM by Cirath
Crush damage for 30 seconds would be rediculous. I would destroy NS, Rangers, and infs with that. maybe even friars. That wouldn't be balanced at all.
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:04 PM by Bradekes
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 8:31 PM
i dont know about valkyrie shield. Frost cut was always off evade which is why critblades specced sword historically.

edit: and i havent looked into valkyrie shield but even if true its not a boon. axe has a stun (crap) but it has one. sword has a stun (crap) but it has one. LA has a stun, 2nd in a chain but its good and hits hard. what im talking about is giving slash infs stun in DW, bladeshades stun in CD, thrust infs 6 sec stun at 15 thrust. LA got nothing. I'd love to see a side stun but i'd really just be happy to have crush damage for 30 seconds.

Just so you know the other realms evade styles weren't tweaked in any way except making them evade styles so I guess SB was just always behind in that field with only having follow up styles for evade... That is nothing that was nerfed or changed to spite midgard it is just how it is. Midgard never had a non-followup stun except hammer like 2second stun
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:42 AM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:04 PM
Just so you know the other realms evade styles weren't tweaked in any way except making them evade styles so I guess SB was just always behind in that field with only having follow up styles for evade... That is nothing that was nerfed or changed to spite midgard it is just how it is. Midgard never had a non-followup stun except hammer like 2second stun

You say they are not tweaked in any way except making them evade styles. Essentially it depends on your definition of tweaked, but adding a style to the arsenal of a class who before could not use it (because it was off-parry or off-block) is a major buff.

Going Blades as a Hib-stealther had as disadvantage you couldn't stun from evade, now you can. Infiltrators needed to go 50 Thrust to get an off-evade stun, now they can get it at 15 Thrust (or 34 Slash as 2nd in evade) which they did not have before (meaning you can spec a lot higher in your DW/CS line).
Mon 25 Mar 2019 7:28 AM by inoeth
its true valkyrie shield and frost cut have been after block, but that is nor really an argument since sb always had the la stun chain.... nothing really changed for sb
Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:23 AM by Xunn
This ability, or something else to compesante, is pretty needed. Speaking about all stealthers, adding the stun styles/chains had the good effect of adding diversity but the collateral effect of direct, net buffing some classes.

The NS and Ranger had a direct buff, being able to spec blades whtout giving up the stun, which broke balance.
For the Infi, I'm not sure what the effects of being able to spec lower Thrust are. Maybe a broken "5 spec" with 50 DW 34 CS (with included evade stun) is availale now?
For the SB? Simply added diversity. SB is now able to have a chain stun without LA... Well... Fighting other stealthers on high ranks without 39+ LA is not what you really want to do
Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:31 AM by Bradekes
So you're all saying NS and Inf should of been the only classes not to get balance tweak to their reactionary styles rendering them unusable? How is that at all fair?

I do think 15 style in thrust should be lowered in duration because it really goes against status quo but alb has had that kinda stuff in crush line as well.

You still have access to stuns which may be harder to use but the duration makes up for that.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:06 AM by inoeth
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:31 AM
So you're all saying NS and Inf should of been the only classes not to get balance tweak to their reactionary styles rendering them unusable? How is that at all fair?

I do think 15 style in thrust should be lowered in duration because it really goes against status quo but alb has had that kinda stuff in crush line as well.

You still have access to stuns which may be harder to use but the duration makes up for that.

dude did you read the past 47 pages? nobody wants to nerf ns/infi.... just a buff for sb to compete
Mon 25 Mar 2019 11:10 AM by Xunn
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:31 AM
So you're all saying NS and Inf should of been the only classes not to get balance tweak to their reactionary styles rendering them unusable? How is that at all fair?

I do think 15 style in thrust should be lowered in duration because it really goes against status quo but alb has had that kinda stuff in crush line as well.

You still have access to stuns which may be harder to use but the duration makes up for that.

I don't get the whole "balance tweak" point. Did the NS need to be balance tweaked with a net increase of damage against other stealthers? Did the ranger need it to be balanced (melee wise) with other arcers? Because at the end, this is what this tweak had the most impact on.

SB is suffering too much from this
Mon 25 Mar 2019 1:53 PM by Bradekes
Pretty sure y'all are blowing a 4second stun way out of proportion, but I think you could probably ask for your stun to be moved to the first style in each spec line and reduced to 4 seconds thats fair.. If they also reduce duration on level 15 thrust style.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 3:10 PM by Seosaidh
Got smacked with a dragonfang the other day. Purge was down so I ate like 4 styles while just standing there. Was kind of demoralizing so I specced purge 5 to help with that, haha.

Frosty Gaze I feel has always been hit or miss, even on live way back when. The same can be said for the sword styles on phoenix. I usually tend to just hamstring instead trying to stun.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 3:42 PM by Amp_Phetamine
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 1:27 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 12:55 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
honestly bro its because you are convinced SBs are pefectly fine. no one is saying SBs can't compete. we can kill people. But it is a LOT harder as an SB than for an inf or an NS by a glaringly obvious margin. You, for whatever reason, are pulling an ostrich move and either burying your head in the sand or simply ignoring obvious facts about the state of SBs on this shard. Mavella has been the most eloquent for sure. I've made some good points if i may say so myself despite our "disagreement" from the other day. I'm not sure why you cant just acknowledge that SBs are the weakest assassin and are the ONLY one on this server not to get any love of any kind. We're not asking to be top dog. just throw us a bone.

I've consistently agree'd that SB's have an unfavorable matchup against blade shades. What my issue is internal complaints regarding 3 of the strongest arch-types in the game. Any kind of change that would benefit a shadow blade against a night shade could have detrimental effects on other classes as well. What I don't like seeing is half-hearted comments and buff suggestions being thrown out to benefit SB's against night shades without taking into consideration how potent assassins are against the rest of the classes in the game as well.

That's what caused the assassin issues in Live DAoC. They were constantly competing among one another and receiving buffs/tweaks that caused major power differentials between assassins and the rest of the classes. I do not want to see that here. I do not want to see assassins cleaning the house against every single class in the game given that both toons are of equal gear/rank/skill.

can you give any example why it would hurt other classes ? what kind of detrimental effects do you mean? you cat like this would be somethin completely new, in fact this is tested since years! all i read in all of your comments is "dont fix classes i dont play". the blunt ability is in the game for many many years and is one of the key features of the sb since. maybe we should talk about getting rid of dirty tricks or slam for merc, so you know what its like to get castrated.

again

gtfo when you dont have to say something useful.... all your claims are like a guru that tell his cult that the end of the world is near LOL

Actually my friend the burden of proof is on you to disprove my claims. But to be fair I'll give you some assistance. Go to google.com. Type in DAoC Armor resist tables in the search bar. Look at Hibernia/Albion and all of the classes that are crush vulnerable. Giving SB's bludgeon would not only effect NS' but subsequently every class that is crush vulnerable.

Also, you need to learn to use quotations correctly. If you double quote someone: "-" that implies you're pulling that statement directly from that person. I've never once said "dont fix classes i dont play".

You're one of those players that seems so fixated on your delusional issues that only players who agree with you are deemed to hold an adequate opinion, huh?

As far as dirty tricks/slam goes this isn't a Mercenary thread. I would have absolutely 0 issues with slam timer being reduced/removed from the blademaster/merc because, shockingly, I don't rely on it .

Now to your last comment: I believe you're confused. You state I should "gtfo..." when I don't have "...to say something useful". When in reality you're just irritated that I disagree with your inept opinion.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 3:47 PM by Amp_Phetamine
phixion wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Mar 2019 5:02 PM
That really is my only issue with assassin balance currently, if you're going to start implementing things for 1 assassin, then you have to do the same for the others.

I respect your opinion on most of your comments throughout this thread Phixion but this statement is incredibly dangerous. The mind set of "you changed an ability on one realms class; therefore, you must add something of equal value to the other realms similar archtype to compensate."

That mindset doesn't work and it can be observed throughout the entire history of DAoC.

The classes aren't mirrors of one another. There are imbalances. That is the point. If the dev's take the time to try and appease every single stealther issue, history has shown it to cause massive game balance issues elsewhere.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 4:58 PM by phixion
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 3:47 PM
I respect your opinion on most of your comments throughout this thread Phixion but this statement is incredibly dangerous. The mind set of "you changed an ability on one realms class; therefore, you must add something of equal value to the other realms similar archtype to compensate."

That mindset doesn't work and it can be observed throughout the entire history of DAoC.

The classes aren't mirrors of one another. There are imbalances. That is the point. If the dev's take the time to try and appease every single stealther issue, history has shown it to cause massive game balance issues elsewhere.

Nah, If they are willing to give side stun to NSs then why don't we already have the Blunt ability?

Assassins tend to fight other assassins, I don't think you can give and take abilities at random and call it balanced.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:19 PM by Cirath
To be fair side stun wasn't "given" to nightshades, it was always available to them at 18cd spec in classic DAOC. The only change to NS styles here was the addition of a 4 second after evade stun in the blades line. This mirrors the changes to the after evade stuns in the sword and axe lines for sb's, although they are 2nd in a chain.

The dirty little secret is that after evade stuns on all classes aren't nearly as powerfull here as they were in classic DAOC due to the prevalence of short cooldown purge and the custom changes to reactionary style rules eliminating the chaining of reactionary styles after a stun.

I would echo previous posters point that "balanced" doesn't mean "the same". I play both NS and SB here. I feel they are balanced classes. You might disagree.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:26 PM by Shadowblade1
Cirath wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
To be fair side stun wasn't "given" to nightshades, it was always available to them at 18cd spec in classic DAOC. The only change to NS styles here was the addition of a 4 second after evade stun in the blades line. This mirrors the changes to the after evade stuns in the sword and axe lines for sb's, although they are 2nd in a chain.

The dirty little secret is that after evade stuns on all classes aren't nearly as powerfull here as they were in classic DAOC due to the prevalence of short cooldown purge and the custom changes to reactionary style rules eliminating the chaining of reactionary styles after a stun.

I would echo previous posters point that "balanced" doesn't mean "the same". I play both NS and SB here. I feel they are balanced classes. You might disagree.
Solid response here. I would argue however, that the prevalence of easy, and frankly, must own purge 2+, makes 1 chain evade stuns even more valuable. Killing yourself to get a 2 chain off to have it purged immediately becomes very tiresome. I actually just bumped my 2 chain stun down from my priorities. I'll just focus on Hamstring chain from now on.

I'm not so sure giving crush damage or even giving us hammer is the best answer. I dont think it helps the realm. Just us. I wonder sometimes what a Mid 1h thrust/pierce. Call it Seax or Sax, line would look like. Maybe a combination of style utility of sword and spear. With more emphasis on positionals than rectionaries. This would bring kobolds into the fold as a highly viable SB, quasi viable warrior/skald. That would benefit the realm more.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:27 PM by jelzinga_EU
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:31 AM
So you're all saying NS and Inf should of been the only classes not to get balance tweak to their reactionary styles rendering them unusable? How is that at all fair?

I do think 15 style in thrust should be lowered in duration because it really goes against status quo but alb has had that kinda stuff in crush line as well.

You still have access to stuns which may be harder to use but the duration makes up for that.

Complete hyperbole argument, we're not all saying... Some might, some (me including) don't. They could've done a style-revamp which isn't completely imbalanced. For example, Horizontal Blade could've been made off-evade and not a stun but an attack-speed reduction. The style-revamp was literally replacing Parry/Block with Evade for evade-based classes.

Duration doesn't make up for it at all. The fact that a NS/INF can do off-evade stun --> Hamstring, Leper etc counts for far more than 2-3 more seconds of stun-duration if it's 2nd in chain. The fact it requires landing 1 style to get a stun >>>> landing 2 consecutive styles is extremely big too.

You seem to be focusing entirely on "must not give into their arguments" rather than listening to well-thought out arguments and facts. What you prefer, instant off-evade stun at 15 or 21 weapon-spec or a 2-3 sec. longer stun 2nd in chain requiring either 34/39 weapon or 39 offhand. It's not a matter of preference, one is simply better. With the CD/DW/LA-bonus to cut evade being halved compared to 1.65 and CS being superior on low HP targets it's not that hard to find out which one is better.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 6:53 PM by phixion
Cirath wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
To be fair side stun wasn't "given" to nightshades, it was always available to them at 18cd spec in classic DAOC.

Really?

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.62

https://www.uthgard.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=36878

My sources state different.

I know NS/Ranger got it later on, but to begin with it was BM only, which makes sense. I am all for fixing styles by removing silly pre reqs like "after block", but they were given a side stun which they shouldn't have--I don't think I have to explain how powerful side stun is here, especially here where "side" tends to mean anywhere within 180 degrees of the side.
Mon 25 Mar 2019 7:08 PM by Bradekes
phixion wrote: ↑
Mon 25 Mar 2019 6:53 PM
My sources state different.


But the problem with your source is that Mythic actually added it to NS and Ranger that patch regardless to them stating clearly only BM got the change..

https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/mythic-please-remove-the-ridiculous-side-stun-from-hib-stealthers.250228039/page-2
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:02 AM by Sepplord
any new information for us @gruesnesschaf regarding the status quo for this topic?

Is it on the backburner due to priority shifts?
Are you still juggling multiple ideas but are not satisfied with any of them?
Have newer stats shown that SBs are doing fine and a change isn't planned anymore?
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:21 AM by Durgrim
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:02 AM
any new information for us @gruesnesschaf regarding the status quo for this topic?

Is it on the backburner due to priority shifts?
Are you still juggling multiple ideas but are not satisfied with any of them?
Have newer stats shown that SBs are doing fine and a change isn't planned anymore?

"The whispers in the morning..." sing

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:49 AM by dante`afk
they're too busy with tajendi 3 and new lightning procs on weapons.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:13 PM by Padatoo
almost 50 pages of whine
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:19 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:02 AM
any new information for us @gruesnesschaf regarding the status quo for this topic?

Is it on the backburner due to priority shifts?
Are you still juggling multiple ideas but are not satisfied with any of them?
Have newer stats shown that SBs are doing fine and a change isn't planned anymore?

Considering that none of the 3 assassins are realistically "struggling" at the moment I'm surprised this thread isn't locked.

This is literally a 50 page complain thread of a handful of SB's that complain they struggle against bladeshades.

There's even comments in here from an actual SB that also plays NS stating it isn't nearly as big of an issue as it's being portrayed.

Lock this baby up and toss it in the depths of the archives.

*The only actual suggestion that's been present that is reasonable is to add a 4-5s off evade style stun for SB's. That's it.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:11 PM by Sepplord
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:19 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:02 AM
any new information for us @gruesnesschaf regarding the status quo for this topic?

Is it on the backburner due to priority shifts?
Are you still juggling multiple ideas but are not satisfied with any of them?
Have newer stats shown that SBs are doing fine and a change isn't planned anymore?

Considering that none of the 3 assassins are realistically "struggling" at the moment I'm surprised this thread isn't locked.

This is literally a 50 page complain thread of a handful of SB's that complain they struggle against bladeshades.

There's even comments in here from an actual SB that also plays NS stating it isn't nearly as big of an issue as it's being portrayed.

Lock this baby up and toss it in the depths of the archives.

*The only actual suggestion that's been present that is reasonable is to add a 4-5s off evade style stun for SB's. That's it.

You sound like you read everything, but then how did you miss gruenes already acknowledging the gap and that they are thinking about measures that would be reasonable.
Since then there have been no new arguments just you and some others shoving the same arguments into each others faces while having a dick measuring contest at the same time

I would prefer just getting an official answer though...
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:42 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:11 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:19 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:02 AM
any new information for us @gruesnesschaf regarding the status quo for this topic?

Is it on the backburner due to priority shifts?
Are you still juggling multiple ideas but are not satisfied with any of them?
Have newer stats shown that SBs are doing fine and a change isn't planned anymore?

Considering that none of the 3 assassins are realistically "struggling" at the moment I'm surprised this thread isn't locked.

This is literally a 50 page complain thread of a handful of SB's that complain they struggle against bladeshades.

There's even comments in here from an actual SB that also plays NS stating it isn't nearly as big of an issue as it's being portrayed.

Lock this baby up and toss it in the depths of the archives.

*The only actual suggestion that's been present that is reasonable is to add a 4-5s off evade style stun for SB's. That's it.

You sound like you read everything, but then how did you miss gruenes already acknowledging the gap and that they are thinking about measures that would be reasonable.
Since then there have been no new arguments just you and some others shoving the same arguments into each others faces while having a dick measuring contest at the same time

I would prefer just getting an official answer though...

Just because a disparity exists doesn't necessarily imply that something needs to be done. You speak of SB vs bladeshade as an impossible encounter yet that's not true. You must've also missed the comment Gruen made about potentially closing the thread due to the ridiculousness being displayed within. Shoving the same arguments into each others face? What're you talking about exactly? The FACT that all three assassins have relatively no performance issues within the FZ? Literally this entire thread boils down to SB leather armor and slash against NS leather armor and slash. Bludgeon is a horrible idea as previously stated. Altering the armor tables is a ridiculous concept. The only proposal worth evaluating and implementing is an off-evade 4-5s style stun for SBs.

The only thread to garner 50 pages+ is a QQ post regarding the idiosyncrasies between the NS and SB.
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:08 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:42 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:11 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:19 PM
Considering that none of the 3 assassins are realistically "struggling" at the moment I'm surprised this thread isn't locked.

This is literally a 50 page complain thread of a handful of SB's that complain they struggle against bladeshades.

There's even comments in here from an actual SB that also plays NS stating it isn't nearly as big of an issue as it's being portrayed.

Lock this baby up and toss it in the depths of the archives.

*The only actual suggestion that's been present that is reasonable is to add a 4-5s off evade style stun for SB's. That's it.

You sound like you read everything, but then how did you miss gruenes already acknowledging the gap and that they are thinking about measures that would be reasonable.
Since then there have been no new arguments just you and some others shoving the same arguments into each others faces while having a dick measuring contest at the same time

I would prefer just getting an official answer though...

Just because a disparity exists doesn't necessarily imply that something needs to be done. You speak of SB vs bladeshade as an impossible encounter yet that's not true. You must've also missed the comment Gruen made about potentially closing the thread due to the ridiculousness being displayed within. Shoving the same arguments into each others face? What're you talking about exactly? The FACT that all three assassins have relatively no performance issues within the FZ? Literally this entire thread boils down to SB leather armor and slash against NS leather armor and slash. Bludgeon is a horrible idea as previously stated. Altering the armor tables is a ridiculous concept. The only proposal worth evaluating and implementing is an off-evade 4-5s style stun for SBs.

The only thread to garner 50 pages+ is a QQ post regarding the idiosyncrasies between the NS and SB.

Bludgeon is probably the most effective and least intrusive way to fix the problem. I am still in awe of your ability to ignore obvious issues. Particularly as it relates to styles. The envenom nerf reduced all sneaks overall effectiveness. This means all sneaks are less effective against other classes. Whatever your opinion on that being a good or bad change it's still the reality. Then, slash infs and shades get a stun that they previously didn't have at this patch level making them more effective overall PARTICULARLY against SBs. Giving SBs bludgeon gives them a response to that change. If you just hate sneaks and SBs in particular just say so. Your entire argument seems predicated on "someone else wants something and I don't like that". You sound like a member of "the resistance".
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:44 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:08 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:42 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:11 PM
You sound like you read everything, but then how did you miss gruenes already acknowledging the gap and that they are thinking about measures that would be reasonable.
Since then there have been no new arguments just you and some others shoving the same arguments into each others faces while having a dick measuring contest at the same time

I would prefer just getting an official answer though...

Just because a disparity exists doesn't necessarily imply that something needs to be done. You speak of SB vs bladeshade as an impossible encounter yet that's not true. You must've also missed the comment Gruen made about potentially closing the thread due to the ridiculousness being displayed within. Shoving the same arguments into each others face? What're you talking about exactly? The FACT that all three assassins have relatively no performance issues within the FZ? Literally this entire thread boils down to SB leather armor and slash against NS leather armor and slash. Bludgeon is a horrible idea as previously stated. Altering the armor tables is a ridiculous concept. The only proposal worth evaluating and implementing is an off-evade 4-5s style stun for SBs.

The only thread to garner 50 pages+ is a QQ post regarding the idiosyncrasies between the NS and SB.

Bludgeon is probably the most effective and least intrusive way to fix the problem. I am still in awe of your ability to ignore obvious issues. Particularly as it relates to styles. The envenom nerf reduced all sneaks overall effectiveness. This means all sneaks are less effective against other classes. Whatever your opinion on that being a good or bad change it's still the reality. Then, slash infs and shades get a stun that they previously didn't have at this patch level making them more effective overall PARTICULARLY against SBs. Giving SBs bludgeon gives them a response to that change. If you just hate sneaks and SBs in particular just say so. Your entire argument seems predicated on "someone else wants something and I don't like that". You sound like a member of "the resistance".

Are you daft? Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is "someone else has something and I don't like it". What the hell is this the Twilight Zone? Dude, seriously look at this as objectively as possible, assassins were OVER POWERED with the poison tick rotation. They were NERFED from OVER POWERED to POWERFUL. Holy crap the level of tunnel vision here is unbelievable.

I don't hate sneaks nor shadowblades in particular. This is an emotional bluff trying to attack my opinion; coming from a highly emotional poster. What I dislike is a class that is NOT STRUGGLING in any aspect of the game other than against certain bladeshades asking for an ability that will not only increase their effectiveness against bladeshades but against MULTIPLE OTHER CLASSES THAT ARE CRUSH VULNERABLE.

None of the assassins actually NEED anything at all. This is literally an internal complaint that SB's in particular have a difficult match up against blade specced night shades. I've watched for years on Postcount, thread after thread, of assassins complaining about how they perform, changes that were made, how they "struggle" which is a load of crap. Assassins do not struggle, they are one of the top performing archtypes in the FZ at the moment and they DO NOT NEED any changes.

Now, for the fifth flipping time I'll state it again. Add an off-evade stun in the Shadowblades combat line, 4-5s at best, and that is literally the only change that would be relatively reasonable.

Other than that spend less time complaining on the boards and more time improving your gameplay.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:22 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:44 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:08 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:42 PM
Just because a disparity exists doesn't necessarily imply that something needs to be done. You speak of SB vs bladeshade as an impossible encounter yet that's not true. You must've also missed the comment Gruen made about potentially closing the thread due to the ridiculousness being displayed within. Shoving the same arguments into each others face? What're you talking about exactly? The FACT that all three assassins have relatively no performance issues within the FZ? Literally this entire thread boils down to SB leather armor and slash against NS leather armor and slash. Bludgeon is a horrible idea as previously stated. Altering the armor tables is a ridiculous concept. The only proposal worth evaluating and implementing is an off-evade 4-5s style stun for SBs.

The only thread to garner 50 pages+ is a QQ post regarding the idiosyncrasies between the NS and SB.

Bludgeon is probably the most effective and least intrusive way to fix the problem. I am still in awe of your ability to ignore obvious issues. Particularly as it relates to styles. The envenom nerf reduced all sneaks overall effectiveness. This means all sneaks are less effective against other classes. Whatever your opinion on that being a good or bad change it's still the reality. Then, slash infs and shades get a stun that they previously didn't have at this patch level making them more effective overall PARTICULARLY against SBs. Giving SBs bludgeon gives them a response to that change. If you just hate sneaks and SBs in particular just say so. Your entire argument seems predicated on "someone else wants something and I don't like that". You sound like a member of "the resistance".

Are you daft? Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is "someone else has something and I don't like it". What the hell is this the Twilight Zone? Dude, seriously look at this as objectively as possible, assassins were OVER POWERED with the poison tick rotation. They were NERFED from OVER POWERED to POWERFUL. Holy crap the level of tunnel vision here is unbelievable.

I don't hate sneaks nor shadowblades in particular. This is an emotional bluff trying to attack my opinion; coming from a highly emotional poster. What I dislike is a class that is NOT STRUGGLING in any aspect of the game other than against certain bladeshades asking for an ability that will not only increase their effectiveness against bladeshades but against MULTIPLE OTHER CLASSES THAT ARE CRUSH VULNERABLE.

None of the assassins actually NEED anything at all. This is literally an internal complaint that SB's in particular have a difficult match up against blade specced night shades. I've watched for years on Postcount, thread after thread, of assassins complaining about how they perform, changes that were made, how they "struggle" which is a load of crap. Assassins do not struggle, they are one of the top performing archtypes in the FZ at the moment and they DO NOT NEED any changes.

Now, for the fifth flipping time I'll state it again. Add an off-evade stun in the Shadowblades combat line, 4-5s at best, and that is literally the only change that would be relatively reasonable.

Other than that spend less time complaining on the boards and more time improving your gameplay.

1) you know nothing about my play so stop deluding yourself and assuming you do. Just as I've made no comments on how well or not you do in the game, you should do the same. You comment on how I'm emotional and irrational and in the same breath make an emotionally charged comment on how well I play when you don't even know who my character is and therefore couldn't have the slightest possible idea. Just stop.

2) yes we've been over this 1000 times in this thread. Poison rotation, which has been a feature of this game since ever, was not the problem. The problem was, and always has been, /switch. Once again, you don't play the class and never have and yet continue to opine with no knowledge of how this works in practice.

3) your declaration that assassins are the one of the highest performing archetypes is based on what metric? That there are a couple of high RR sneaks? RPs per week? How are you reaching that conclusion? If I earn 500k RPs a week by playing 50 hours and you earn 250k RPs in a week playing 12 hours who would you say is doing better? You strike me again and again as someone who has an opinion and then looks for stats to back up your opinion without the extra effort to put those stats in context. Yes, there are some high RR assassins with a lot of RPs gained. Put those numbers in context of hours played and RPs per death and the numbers become aggressively average at best.

4) everytime you post here you continue to flaunt both your ignorance of the topic and your emotional attachment to it, which I still haven't figured out why since we established early on you don't play sneaks. Your time here would be better spent advocating for a fix to charge since at least on that topic you seem to know what you're talking about and more importantly, actually have something intelligent to say unlike anything you've ever written in this thread.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:54 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:22 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:44 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:08 PM
Bludgeon is probably the most effective and least intrusive way to fix the problem. I am still in awe of your ability to ignore obvious issues. Particularly as it relates to styles. The envenom nerf reduced all sneaks overall effectiveness. This means all sneaks are less effective against other classes. Whatever your opinion on that being a good or bad change it's still the reality. Then, slash infs and shades get a stun that they previously didn't have at this patch level making them more effective overall PARTICULARLY against SBs. Giving SBs bludgeon gives them a response to that change. If you just hate sneaks and SBs in particular just say so. Your entire argument seems predicated on "someone else wants something and I don't like that". You sound like a member of "the resistance".

Are you daft? Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is "someone else has something and I don't like it". What the hell is this the Twilight Zone? Dude, seriously look at this as objectively as possible, assassins were OVER POWERED with the poison tick rotation. They were NERFED from OVER POWERED to POWERFUL. Holy crap the level of tunnel vision here is unbelievable.

I don't hate sneaks nor shadowblades in particular. This is an emotional bluff trying to attack my opinion; coming from a highly emotional poster. What I dislike is a class that is NOT STRUGGLING in any aspect of the game other than against certain bladeshades asking for an ability that will not only increase their effectiveness against bladeshades but against MULTIPLE OTHER CLASSES THAT ARE CRUSH VULNERABLE.

None of the assassins actually NEED anything at all. This is literally an internal complaint that SB's in particular have a difficult match up against blade specced night shades. I've watched for years on Postcount, thread after thread, of assassins complaining about how they perform, changes that were made, how they "struggle" which is a load of crap. Assassins do not struggle, they are one of the top performing archtypes in the FZ at the moment and they DO NOT NEED any changes.

Now, for the fifth flipping time I'll state it again. Add an off-evade stun in the Shadowblades combat line, 4-5s at best, and that is literally the only change that would be relatively reasonable.

Other than that spend less time complaining on the boards and more time improving your gameplay.

1) you know nothing about my play so stop deluding yourself and assuming you do. Just as I've made no comments on how well or not you do in the game, you should do the same. You comment on how I'm emotional and irrational and in the same breath make an emotionally charged comment on how well I play when you don't even know who my character is and therefore couldn't have the slightest possible idea. Just stop.

2) yes we've been over this 1000 times in this thread. Poison rotation, which has been a feature of this game since ever, was not the problem. The problem was, and always has been, /switch. Once again, you don't play the class and never have and yet continue to opine with no knowledge of how this works in practice.

3) your declaration that assassins are the one of the highest performing archetypes is based on what metric? That there are a couple of high RR sneaks? RPs per week? How are you reaching that conclusion? If I earn 500k RPs a week by playing 50 hours and you earn 250k RPs in a week playing 12 hours who would you say is doing better? You strike me again and again as someone who has an opinion and then looks for stats to back up your opinion without the extra effort to put those stats in context. Yes, there are some high RR assassins with a lot of RPs gained. Put those numbers in context of hours played and RPs per death and the numbers become aggressively average at best.

4) everytime you post here you continue to flaunt both your ignorance of the topic and your emotional attachment to it, which I still haven't figured out why since we established early on you don't play sneaks. Your time here would be better spent advocating for a fix to charge since at least on that topic you seem to know what you're talking about and more importantly, actually have something intelligent to say unlike anything you've ever written in this thread.

Continually emotional, nice rebuke, you didn't counter a single one of my points.

So you decided to take personal insult in the very last sentence of my post and attack me throughout your entire post all the while claiming you aren't emotionally invested here? Well done.

What's relevant is whether or not you present a reasonable argument and you do not. For the sixth time: The only reasonable request/suggestion here is to add a 4-5s off-evade stun for SB's. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Poison tick re-application, whether through /switch command or drag/drop, is and was broken. The dev's stated this quite clearly and patched it accordingly.

I'm baffled at the volume of players that dispute the herald statistics with impractical claims of "oh, well, that's because those players are probably killing blues and greens, or they play 18 hours a day". Let's get realistic here. There is a reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills bud and it's not because shadow blades are being ganked constantly by blade shades.

#4 is my favorite comment. The level of hypocrisy is hilarious. Here we go with the all mighty counter of: "You aren't currently playing an assassin on Phoenix, therefore your comments are irrelevant". You know how many times I've seen that garbage of a comment thrown around? It's a weak point at best.

I'll state it again. Giving SB's bludgeon for the sole purpose of shadow blades dealing with blade shades is a horrible idea. Altering the armor tables for the sole purpose of shadow blades dealing with blade shades is a horrible idea.

HOWEVER, giving shadow blades an off-evade stun is a good idea.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:32 PM by dante`afk
Please, everyone, spare your energy and stop responding to this troll. Let him have monologues.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:34 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Yes, everyone, ignore anyone who disputes your ideas! This way you'll only communicate with like-minded individuals who agree with what you think.


You're quite the common man aren't you Dante?
Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:36 PM by dante`afk
You're the type of guy who says the earth is flat. You're the type guy who, if he sees a straight line drawn on paper, will say it's not straight.

You watch Fox news and that's the whole truth you need.

End.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:42 PM by Amp_Phetamine
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:36 PM
You're the type of guy who says the earth is flat. You're the type guy who, if he sees a straight line drawn on paper, will say it's not straight.

You watch Fox news and that's the whole truth you need.

End.

Resorting to personal insults in a vain attempt to.. do what exactly? You've yet to provide any actual reasoning to counter my arguments, made even more obvious by your lack of involvement in this thread and current attempts at petty insults.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:12 PM by jelzinga_EU
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:54 PM
I'm baffled at the volume of players that dispute the herald statistics with impractical claims of "oh, well, that's because those players are probably killing blues and greens, or they play 18 hours a day". Let's get realistic here. There is a reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills bud and it's not because shadow blades are being ganked constantly by blade shades.

I would be very careful when analyzing the Herald for statistics as those metrics miss context. You can make up all kinds of reasons why class X performs best, but the reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills is because they... shocker.. solo a lot. The class is practically designed to solo, does not get group-invites (except from other sneaks) and can reasonably stay hidden for a long time to get their solo-kills.

To have any success solo on Phoenix you need atleast one of the following, but preferably 2:

* Stealth to avoid the constant enemies and pick your own targets
* Speed to avoid the constant enemies and (hopefully) pick your own targets
* Good DPS to quickly kill so you can gtfo fast before you get overrun.

Guess which classes will flood the solo leaderboards...

To show you how easily you can manipulate with statistics you could, for example, calculate their IRS-score or Solokills/Deaths ratio. Take for example:

Top NS (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Shurtugal -> NS with 2756 solokills 8L7 and 673 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Xann -> NS with 2520 solokills 8L1 and 547 deaths

Top SB (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Lunenoire -> SB with 2656 solokills 8L7 and 1616 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Phixion -> SB with 2653 solokills 8L9 and 1338 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Trellina -> SB with 2477 solokills 8L5 and 1034 deaths

This is taken from the same statistics as you take, showing you a completely different image: SB's die up to twice as much on avg. to reach roughly the same amount of
solo-kills /RP's.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:28 PM by phixion
https://imgur.com/a/pv3UdHL

This is the stuff SBs are talking about, PA and CD on Quickstab and he still beats me, why?

Because look at his damage and compare it to mine.

His Garrote is hitting me for 209MH + 65OH = 274 per round.

My Doublefrost is hitting him for 116MH and 54OH (at most) = 170 per round.

That's 100 damage per round extra... for what?

It's rather frustrating getting the jump on a NS running unstealthed and still losing to Garrote spam.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:31 PM by Mauriac
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:28 PM
https://imgur.com/a/pv3UdHL

This is the stuff SBs are talking about, PA and CD on Quickstab and he still beats me, why?

Because look at his damage and compare it to mine.

His Garrote is hitting me for 209MH + 65OH = 274 per round.

My Doublefrost is hitting him for 116MH and 54OH (at most) = 170 per round.

That's 100 damage per round extra... for what?

More than frustrating doing everything right and still losing to Garrote spam.

I'm sure amphetamine will come up with a very well thought out, highly logical and certainly not emotional answer for this.....
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:33 PM by Mauriac
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:12 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:54 PM
I'm baffled at the volume of players that dispute the herald statistics with impractical claims of "oh, well, that's because those players are probably killing blues and greens, or they play 18 hours a day". Let's get realistic here. There is a reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills bud and it's not because shadow blades are being ganked constantly by blade shades.

I would be very careful when analyzing the Herald for statistics as those metrics miss context. You can make up all kinds of reasons why class X performs best, but the reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills is because they... shocker.. solo a lot. The class is practically designed to solo, does not get group-invites (except from other sneaks) and can reasonably stay hidden for a long time to get their solo-kills.

To have any success solo on Phoenix you need atleast one of the following, but preferably 2:

* Stealth to avoid the constant enemies and pick your own targets
* Speed to avoid the constant enemies and (hopefully) pick your own targets
* Good DPS to quickly kill so you can gtfo fast before you get overrun.

Guess which classes will flood the solo leaderboards...

To show you how easily you can manipulate with statistics you could, for example, calculate their IRS-score or Solokills/Deaths ratio. Take for example:

Top NS (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Shurtugal -> NS with 2756 solokills 8L7 and 673 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Xann -> NS with 2520 solokills 8L1 and 547 deaths

Top SB (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Lunenoire -> SB with 2656 solokills 8L7 and 1616 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Phixion -> SB with 2653 solokills 8L9 and 1338 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Trellina -> SB with 2477 solokills 8L5 and 1034 deaths

This is taken from the same statistics as you take, showing you a completely different image: SB's die up to twice as much on avg. to reach roughly the same amount of
solo-kills /RP's.

I would say I rest my case but I'm pretty sure amphetamine will come up with something else to explain this or just ignore it since he's pretty good at ignoring reality it seems.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:42 PM by phixion
I will go out on a limb and say; I don't think there's a universe in which I get jumped by a templated assassin who gets PA and CD off on me and I still win the fight... EVER.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:43 PM by dante`afk
At this point we figured how it is to talk against a wall.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:06 PM by Amp_Phetamine
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:12 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:54 PM
I'm baffled at the volume of players that dispute the herald statistics with impractical claims of "oh, well, that's because those players are probably killing blues and greens, or they play 18 hours a day". Let's get realistic here. There is a reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills bud and it's not because shadow blades are being ganked constantly by blade shades.

I would be very careful when analyzing the Herald for statistics as those metrics miss context. You can make up all kinds of reasons why class X performs best, but the reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills is because they... shocker.. solo a lot. The class is practically designed to solo, does not get group-invites (except from other sneaks) and can reasonably stay hidden for a long time to get their solo-kills.

To have any success solo on Phoenix you need atleast one of the following, but preferably 2:

* Stealth to avoid the constant enemies and pick your own targets
* Speed to avoid the constant enemies and (hopefully) pick your own targets
* Good DPS to quickly kill so you can gtfo fast before you get overrun.

Guess which classes will flood the solo leaderboards...

To show you how easily you can manipulate with statistics you could, for example, calculate their IRS-score or Solokills/Deaths ratio. Take for example:

Top NS (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Shurtugal -> NS with 2756 solokills 8L7 and 673 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Xann -> NS with 2520 solokills 8L1 and 547 deaths

Top SB (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Lunenoire -> SB with 2656 solokills 8L7 and 1616 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Phixion -> SB with 2653 solokills 8L9 and 1338 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Trellina -> SB with 2477 solokills 8L5 and 1034 deaths

This is taken from the same statistics as you take, showing you a completely different image: SB's die up to twice as much on avg. to reach roughly the same amount of
solo-kills /RP's.

This kind of proves my point more so than proving a point that SB's struggle against NS's... You clearly proved with the herald statistics that even though the top three SB's have twice as many deaths as the top two NS's, they're relatively close in terms of solo kills obtained. So SB's aren't struggling to get kills, obviously they don't have a problem getting kills, they happen to die twice as much though. Is that game breaking? Does that warrant a change? What are you asking for exactly. Neither SB nor NS are struggling to earn solo kills.

Phixion, I understand your complaints, you unfortunately were added on in that fight with Quickstab and didn't SS the rest of the fight when Roll added on you. Perhaps you would've won?
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:09 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:33 PM
I would say I rest my case but I'm pretty sure amphetamine will come up with something else to explain this or just ignore it since he's pretty good at ignoring reality it seems.

You'd be right, although I'm not nearly as skilled in QQ post's as you.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:13 PM by phixion
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:06 PM
Phixion, I understand your complaints, you unfortunately were added on in that fight with Quickstab and didn't SS the rest of the fight when Roll added on you. Perhaps you would've won?

No, I wasn't? It was me vs him, no one else around.

Even if I was (which I'm almost certain there wasn't), I still got outdamaged by 100+ per swing, all thanks to the armor resist tables and racial resists from Elf.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:15 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:09 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:33 PM
I would say I rest my case but I'm pretty sure amphetamine will come up with something else to explain this or just ignore it since he's pretty good at ignoring reality it seems.

You'd be right, although I'm not nearly as skilled in QQ post's as you.

If by QQ you mean providing my experiences and evidence of what I believe are significant issues as opposed to throwing around a bunch of nonsense based on nothing but what you think without having any experience on the topic then yes, you're nowhere on my level
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:19 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:06 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:12 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:54 PM
I'm baffled at the volume of players that dispute the herald statistics with impractical claims of "oh, well, that's because those players are probably killing blues and greens, or they play 18 hours a day". Let's get realistic here. There is a reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills bud and it's not because shadow blades are being ganked constantly by blade shades.

I would be very careful when analyzing the Herald for statistics as those metrics miss context. You can make up all kinds of reasons why class X performs best, but the reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills is because they... shocker.. solo a lot. The class is practically designed to solo, does not get group-invites (except from other sneaks) and can reasonably stay hidden for a long time to get their solo-kills.

To have any success solo on Phoenix you need atleast one of the following, but preferably 2:

* Stealth to avoid the constant enemies and pick your own targets
* Speed to avoid the constant enemies and (hopefully) pick your own targets
* Good DPS to quickly kill so you can gtfo fast before you get overrun.

Guess which classes will flood the solo leaderboards...

To show you how easily you can manipulate with statistics you could, for example, calculate their IRS-score or Solokills/Deaths ratio. Take for example:

Top NS (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Shurtugal -> NS with 2756 solokills 8L7 and 673 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Xann -> NS with 2520 solokills 8L1 and 547 deaths

Top SB (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Lunenoire -> SB with 2656 solokills 8L7 and 1616 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Phixion -> SB with 2653 solokills 8L9 and 1338 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Trellina -> SB with 2477 solokills 8L5 and 1034 deaths

This is taken from the same statistics as you take, showing you a completely different image: SB's die up to twice as much on avg. to reach roughly the same amount of
solo-kills /RP's.

This kind of proves my point more so than proving a point that SB's struggle against NS's... You clearly proved with the herald statistics that even though the top three SB's have twice as many deaths as the top two NS's, they're relatively close in terms of solo kills obtained. So SB's aren't struggling to get kills, obviously they don't have a problem getting kills, they happen to die twice as much though. Is that game breaking? Does that warrant a change? What are you asking for exactly. Neither SB nor NS are struggling to earn solo kills.

Phixion, I understand your complaints, you unfortunately were added on in that fight with Quickstab and didn't SS the rest of the fight when Roll added on you. Perhaps you would've won?

They're not struggling to get kills they just die twice as much, nothing to see here..... Good God, who needs walls when we have you around. You're so dense nothing would ever get through. Thank God you're not a mile gate.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:23 PM by Padatoo
Have to join QQ and claim:
Landing the 2-chain evade stun is sometimes practically impossible , here's an example of champion defences - block 34.85% evade 9.95% parry 24.92% and ofcourse a 5.15% miss after a 10-bonus-style..........that makes it 41% to land a style and 0.41*0.41 = 0.173 >>> 17.3% to land both styles (stun)
1 out of 6 chains would go through,ugh...good luck next time.


Giving SB's an off-evade stun is a good idea.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:27 PM by Mauriac
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:23 PM
Have to join QQ and claim:
Landing the 2-chain evade stun is sometimes practically impossible , here's an example of champion defences - block 34.85% evade 9.95% parry 24.92% and ofcourse a 5.15% miss after a 10-bonus-style..........that makes it 41% to land a style and 0.41*0.41 = 0.173 >>> 17.3% to land both styles (stun)
1 out of 6 chains would go through,ugh...good luck next time.


Giving SB's an off-evade stun is a good idea.

It wouldn't change anything when you're getting out hit for 60 to 100 per round as Phixion showed. Stun access for SBs isn't the issue. It's damage. Just damage.

Edit: also you showed stats versus a champion. That's a very bad target to pick lol I personally avoid Champs like ebola
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:30 PM by Mavella
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:28 PM
https://imgur.com/a/pv3UdHL

This is the stuff SBs are talking about, PA and CD on Quickstab and he still beats me, why?

Because look at his damage and compare it to mine.

His Garrote is hitting me for 209MH + 65OH = 274 per round.

My Doublefrost is hitting him for 116MH and 54OH (at most) = 170 per round.

That's 100 damage per round extra... for what?

It's rather frustrating getting the jump on a NS running unstealthed and still losing to Garrote spam.

You need to reapply enervate after they purge the CD stun. It looks like you resisted his enervate on the opener. So you were equal there at least. You were diseased and str debuffed at the least and it looks like he resisted 2(!) str/con procs from the sword. Looks like you had him diseased after the opener as well as lifebane but that's it. You've got 44+7% str debuff on you while he only had 7% str debuff on his naturally lower str. It's still gonna be a hard fight but the damage numbers won't be so dramatically different. The 2 proc resists was a lot of luck on his part.

Also his 209/65 was definitely a hamstring he evaded your previous attack and there's no mention of slow.

The 175mh is his garrote damage and 195 is likely AH.

I have unfortunately done the same thing. Perf/CD on slash-filtrator. He purged by debuffs I forgot to reapply and I got outdamaged because I was still debuffed. Had I reapplied enervate and disease it would likely have been a very easy win.

Making sure your target is fully debuffed is honestly the single most important thing when it comes to winning these match ups.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:33 PM by phixion
Mavella wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:30 PM
You need to reapply enervate after they purge the CD stun. It looks like you resisted his enervate on the opener. So you were equal there at least. You were diseased and str debuffed at the least and it looks like he resisted 2(!) str/con procs from the sword. Looks like you had him diseased after the opener as well as lifebane but that's it. You've got 44+7% str debuff on you while he only had 7% str debuff on his naturally lower str. It's still gonna be a hard fight but the damage numbers won't be so dramatically different. The 2 proc resists was a lot of luck on his part.

Also his 209/65 was definitely a hamstring he evaded your previous attack and there's no mention of slow.

The 175mh is his garrote damage and 195 is likely AH.

I have unfortunately done the same thing. Perf/CD on slash-filtrator. He purged by debuffs I forgot to reapply and I got outdamaged because I was still debuffed. Had I reapplied enervate and disease it would likely have been a very easy win.

Making sure you target is fully debuffed is honestly the single most important thing when it comes to winning these match ups.

Maybe so, but I carry 2x enervating weapons and always attempt to reapply if it fails or gets purged. I also have str/con debuff proc on swords which almost always procs, not sure if it did in this instance though.

Although this screenshot might be a one off with 2 resists on enervating, their damage being significantly higher remains a constant.

I literally have no chance vs Nightshades of my RR, they all hit way harder with CS spec than I can hit with CS spec or LA spec.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:36 PM by Mavella
It's definitely still an extremely difficult fight just offering some context to the numbers in the SS.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:36 PM by Padatoo
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:27 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:23 PM
Have to join QQ and claim:
Landing the 2-chain evade stun is sometimes practically impossible , here's an example of champion defences - block 34.85% evade 9.95% parry 24.92% and ofcourse a 5.15% miss after a 10-bonus-style..........that makes it 41% to land a style and 0.41*0.41 = 0.173 >>> 17.3% to land both styles (stun)
1 out of 6 chains would go through,ugh...good luck next time.


Giving SB's an off-evade stun is a good idea.

It wouldn't change anything when you're getting out hit for 60 to 100 per round as Phixion showed. Stun access for SBs isn't the issue. It's damage. Just damage.

Edit: also you showed stats versus a champion. That's a very bad target to pick lol I personally avoid Champs like ebola

I have no troubles with anyone who is specced blades ,since I started stacking str debuffs .In fact,I have more trouble with infil's then with anything that comes out of hpk because of 1.RR5-RR7 infils dominate their counterparts of the same RR and 2.infil's rarely go alone -.-
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:45 PM by jelzinga_EU
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:06 PM
This kind of proves my point more so than proving a point that SB's struggle against NS's... You clearly proved with the herald statistics that even though the top three SB's have twice as many deaths as the top two NS's, they're relatively close in terms of solo kills obtained. So SB's aren't struggling to get kills, obviously they don't have a problem getting kills, they happen to die twice as much though. Is that game breaking? Does that warrant a change? What are you asking for exactly. Neither SB nor NS are struggling to earn solo kills.

There is a saying "Lies, damned lies and statistics" which soon needs an addendum with your name if you reason like this

But in an attempt: What kind of metric do you think would proof there is (or isn't) a problem ? If you don't want to understand or acknowledge that an absolute statistic such as 'solo kills' means very little in terms of balance then it is pointless to argue about relative performance or statistics in general.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:47 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:19 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:06 PM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:12 PM
I would be very careful when analyzing the Herald for statistics as those metrics miss context. You can make up all kinds of reasons why class X performs best, but the reason that assassins flood the leaderboards in solo kills is because they... shocker.. solo a lot. The class is practically designed to solo, does not get group-invites (except from other sneaks) and can reasonably stay hidden for a long time to get their solo-kills.

To have any success solo on Phoenix you need atleast one of the following, but preferably 2:

* Stealth to avoid the constant enemies and pick your own targets
* Speed to avoid the constant enemies and (hopefully) pick your own targets
* Good DPS to quickly kill so you can gtfo fast before you get overrun.

Guess which classes will flood the solo leaderboards...

To show you how easily you can manipulate with statistics you could, for example, calculate their IRS-score or Solokills/Deaths ratio. Take for example:

Top NS (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Shurtugal -> NS with 2756 solokills 8L7 and 673 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Xann -> NS with 2520 solokills 8L1 and 547 deaths

Top SB (for solokills):
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Lunenoire -> SB with 2656 solokills 8L7 and 1616 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Phixion -> SB with 2653 solokills 8L9 and 1338 deaths
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Trellina -> SB with 2477 solokills 8L5 and 1034 deaths

This is taken from the same statistics as you take, showing you a completely different image: SB's die up to twice as much on avg. to reach roughly the same amount of
solo-kills /RP's.

This kind of proves my point more so than proving a point that SB's struggle against NS's... You clearly proved with the herald statistics that even though the top three SB's have twice as many deaths as the top two NS's, they're relatively close in terms of solo kills obtained. So SB's aren't struggling to get kills, obviously they don't have a problem getting kills, they happen to die twice as much though. Is that game breaking? Does that warrant a change? What are you asking for exactly. Neither SB nor NS are struggling to earn solo kills.

Phixion, I understand your complaints, you unfortunately were added on in that fight with Quickstab and didn't SS the rest of the fight when Roll added on you. Perhaps you would've won?

They're not struggling to get kills they just die twice as much, nothing to see here..... Good God, who needs walls when we have you around. You're so dense nothing would ever get through. Thank God you're not a mile gate.

That's literally the point. Who know's exactly why those three players in particular have twice as many deaths as the two night shades. The point is they aren't struggling to get kills. They aren't gimp, they aren't under powered nor are they really struggling to do well. Every class is going to struggle against a few other classes. That's the point of the game.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:55 PM by Amp_Phetamine
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:45 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:06 PM
This kind of proves my point more so than proving a point that SB's struggle against NS's... You clearly proved with the herald statistics that even though the top three SB's have twice as many deaths as the top two NS's, they're relatively close in terms of solo kills obtained. So SB's aren't struggling to get kills, obviously they don't have a problem getting kills, they happen to die twice as much though. Is that game breaking? Does that warrant a change? What are you asking for exactly. Neither SB nor NS are struggling to earn solo kills.

There is a saying "Lies, damned lies and statistics" which soon needs an addendum with your name if you reason like this

But in an attempt: What kind of metric do you think would proof there is (or isn't) a problem ? If you don't want to understand or acknowledge that an absolute statistic such as 'solo kills' means very little in terms of balance then it is pointless to argue about relative performance or statistics in general.

Let me put it this way. Your example simply pointed out that the top 3 SB's have roughly twice as many deaths as the top 2 night shades. That is correct, right?

Based on that statistic, are you implying that SB's require a buff? For what reason, they aren't struggling to earn kills.

The only thing "wrong' with my reasoning is that it's against SB's receiving unnecessary buffs and obviously there are quite a few here that don't want to see the other side of the logic.

The worse thing these people want to hear is that 'yes there is a differential between NS's and SB's and it's going to stay that way'. Do you know why? Because it's part of the game. DAoC is not a game of mirrored classes. DEAL WITH IT.

For the seventh time: Give shadow blades an off-evade stun @ 4-5s duration and that is it.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:01 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:47 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:19 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:06 PM
This kind of proves my point more so than proving a point that SB's struggle against NS's... You clearly proved with the herald statistics that even though the top three SB's have twice as many deaths as the top two NS's, they're relatively close in terms of solo kills obtained. So SB's aren't struggling to get kills, obviously they don't have a problem getting kills, they happen to die twice as much though. Is that game breaking? Does that warrant a change? What are you asking for exactly. Neither SB nor NS are struggling to earn solo kills.

Phixion, I understand your complaints, you unfortunately were added on in that fight with Quickstab and didn't SS the rest of the fight when Roll added on you. Perhaps you would've won?

They're not struggling to get kills they just die twice as much, nothing to see here..... Good God, who needs walls when we have you around. You're so dense nothing would ever get through. Thank God you're not a mile gate.

That's literally the point. Who know's exactly why those three players in particular have twice as many deaths as the two night shades. The point is they aren't struggling to get kills. They aren't gimp, they aren't under powered nor are they really struggling to do well. Every class is going to struggle against a few other classes. That's the point of the game.

I don't disagree with you that every class will have an Achilles heel. What I and everyone else are saying is that there is a significant difference between how SBs perform compared to NS and inf. The fact that the top SBs have 2x more deaths for the SAME RR compared to NS is statistically relevant. Now there could be many factors as to how that plays out but it certainly isn't L2P or the fact that SBs have the worst players. While possible, it's very improbable. We show you screenshots if our fights. We show you stats from the herald. We show how LA performs relative to CD/DW and you still can't seem to acknowledge it. Did you not see what Phixion's damage is per MH swing? I hit for within 5 points of him at R5. I hit for almost that at R3. LA as a mechanic means that your MH doesn't hit for full value but scales up with LA spec. Each time you gain RR you only gain a portion of that damage increase, not the whole thing. Notice how an NS of the same RR is breaking 200 dmg MH. That's significantly more than I can do combined between both hands. No off evade stun is going to change that when the raw damage output is so out of balance.

And once again, stop falling back on your "daoc isn't about mirrored classes" bs line. That's the line you always use when you realize you don't have an actual argument. No kidding the classes aren't mirrored. They're more like cousins. And when two of them outperform the other substantially thats a balance problem. Telling us to just accept it and move on is an idiotic and asinine answer. It's a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Fun varies from person to person so it's impossible to ever get that perfect mix for everyone. What all people want though is at least the belief that you have a fair shot when you play. SBs don't have that same shot, especially compared to the other sneaks. Should you just follow your own logic and stop advocating for a fix for mercs? Should you just suck it up and deal with it? Or should you keep trying to help others see that maybe mercs and charge have a performance issue in rvr?
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:22 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:01 PM
I don't disagree with you that every class will have an Achilles heel. What I and everyone else are saying is that there is a significant difference between how SBs perform compared to NS and inf. The fact that the top SBs have 2x more deaths for the SAME RR compared to NS is statistically relevant. Now there could be many factors as to how that plays out but it certainly isn't L2P or the fact that SBs have the worst players. While possible, it's very improbable. We show you screenshots if our fights. We show you stats from the herald. We show how LA performs relative to CD/DW and you still can't seem to acknowledge it. Did you not see what Phixion's damage is per MH swing? I hit for within 5 points of him at R5. I hit for almost that at R3. LA as a mechanic means that your MH doesn't hit for full value but scales up with LA spec. Each time you gain RR you only gain a portion of that damage increase, not the whole thing. Notice how an NS of the same RR is breaking 200 dmg MH. That's significantly more than I can do combined between both hands. No off evade stun is going to change that when the raw damage output is so out of balance.

Mauriac I've never once, not a single time, denied the fact that blade specced night shades are in a favorable position compared to shadow blades. What I am arguing is, is it such a great difference in capability that it warrants a change; in either way, a buff to shadow blades or a nerf to night shades. Also, the idea of bludgeon that has been proposed grants an unnecessary bonus to shadow blades against not only night shades but to every class that is crush vulnerable.

How can you say an off-evade stun wouldn't have a beneficial effect for shadow blades? That would be a huge boost for them because they don't have it at the moment. The chance to get an additional 2, possibly 3 combat styles off wouldn't be advantageous?

Think about it. The majority of changes that are being proposed to aide shadow blades compete against night shades won't only effect fights among the two assassins, but potentially have undesirable consequences against other classes in the game.

Is it absolutely 100% impossible for a SB to kill a blade nightshade? If the answer is yes, then change is required. If the answer is no (which this is the correct answer) then change is not required.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:30 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:22 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:01 PM
I don't disagree with you that every class will have an Achilles heel. What I and everyone else are saying is that there is a significant difference between how SBs perform compared to NS and inf. The fact that the top SBs have 2x more deaths for the SAME RR compared to NS is statistically relevant. Now there could be many factors as to how that plays out but it certainly isn't L2P or the fact that SBs have the worst players. While possible, it's very improbable. We show you screenshots if our fights. We show you stats from the herald. We show how LA performs relative to CD/DW and you still can't seem to acknowledge it. Did you not see what Phixion's damage is per MH swing? I hit for within 5 points of him at R5. I hit for almost that at R3. LA as a mechanic means that your MH doesn't hit for full value but scales up with LA spec. Each time you gain RR you only gain a portion of that damage increase, not the whole thing. Notice how an NS of the same RR is breaking 200 dmg MH. That's significantly more than I can do combined between both hands. No off evade stun is going to change that when the raw damage output is so out of balance.

Mauriac I've never once, not a single time, denied the fact that blade specced night shades are in a favorable position compared to shadow blades. What I am arguing is, is it such a great difference in capability that it warrants a change; in either way, a buff to shadow blades or a nerf to night shades. Also, the idea of bludgeon that has been proposed grants an unnecessary bonus to shadow blades against not only night shades but to every class that is crush vulnerable.

How can you say an off-evade stun wouldn't have a beneficial effect for shadow blades? That would be a huge boost for them because they don't have it at the moment. The chance to get an additional 2, possibly 3 combat styles off wouldn't be advantageous?

Think about it. The majority of changes that are being proposed to aide shadow blades compete against night shades won't only effect fights among the two assassins, but potentially have undesirable consequences against other classes in the game.

Is it absolutely 100% impossible for a SB to kill a blade nightshade? If the answer is yes, then change is required. If the answer is no (which this is the correct answer) then change is not required.

An off evade stun would have no impact at all except at rr4 and below. The issue, once again is damage. Anyone rr5 and over is at least running purge 4 if not purge 5. Stuns at that point are not anything special since you're not getting those free hits you're talking about. What you are getting though, is out damaged by up to 100 per round. And yes we can beat SOME bladeshades and slash infs. They need to be lower RR, my TG sword needs to go off and I need to land a stun and them not have purge up. If they're rr5 and over then for me, as an rr5 I have almost no chance because it becomes a pure dps race which I will always lose. And I've also PAed an rr7 slash inf named gullys and lost so I understand what phixion is talking about
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:33 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:01 PM
I don't disagree with you that every class will have an Achilles heel. What I and everyone else are saying is that there is a significant difference between how SBs perform compared to NS and inf. The fact that the top SBs have 2x more deaths for the SAME RR compared to NS is statistically relevant. Now there could be many factors as to how that plays out but it certainly isn't L2P or the fact that SBs have the worst players. While possible, it's very improbable. We show you screenshots if our fights. We show you stats from the herald. We show how LA performs relative to CD/DW and you still can't seem to acknowledge it. Did you not see what Phixion's damage is per MH swing? I hit for within 5 points of him at R5. I hit for almost that at R3. LA as a mechanic means that your MH doesn't hit for full value but scales up with LA spec. Each time you gain RR you only gain a portion of that damage increase, not the whole thing. Notice how an NS of the same RR is breaking 200 dmg MH. That's significantly more than I can do combined between both hands. No off evade stun is going to change that when the raw damage output is so out of balance.

And once again, stop falling back on your "daoc isn't about mirrored classes" bs line. That's the line you always use when you realize you don't have an actual argument. No kidding the classes aren't mirrored. They're more like cousins. And when two of them outperform the other substantially thats a balance problem. Telling us to just accept it and move on is an idiotic and asinine answer. It's a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Fun varies from person to person so it's impossible to ever get that perfect mix for everyone. What all people want though is at least the belief that you have a fair shot when you play. SBs don't have that same shot, especially compared to the other sneaks. Should you just follow your own logic and stop advocating for a fix for mercs? Should you just suck it up and deal with it? Or should you keep trying to help others see that maybe mercs and charge have a performance issue in rvr?

Whelp I thought you may have matured until you decided to edit and add that second paragraph.

Now, to answer your unnecessary paragraph:
1. It's a fact, DAoC isn't about mirrored classes. Just because you don't like to hear it doesn't make it untrue.
2. You choose to dismiss my argument because it doesn't fall in line with what you believe is right. That is a character flaw in you.
3. If you aren't having fun playing DAoC because you struggle against certain blade specced night shades on your shadow blade then I'd recommend re-rolling something else or playing a different game.
4. If shadow blades didn't have a "fair shot" at all, how the hell are there 3 of them in the top 10 RP's earned by all stealth?
5. I never once asked for a "fix to mercs". If you're referring to my Charge thread I was seeking an alteration to Charge that would benefit all three light tanks, not just Mercenaries (see where we differ here?). Subsequently I was told by the Developers that nothing will be changed with Charge. I thanked them for their time and "sucked it up"...
6. Answer me this question: What can be altered with Shadow Blades that will be beneficial to them without resulting in imbalances elsewhere?
*hint* - the best option so far would be a 4-5s off-evade stun.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:39 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:30 PM
An off evade stun would have no impact at all except at rr4 and below. The issue, once again is damage. Anyone rr5 and over is at least running purge 4 if not purge 5. Stuns at that point are not anything special since you're not getting those free hits you're talking about. What you are getting though, is out damaged by up to 100 per round. And yes we can beat SOME bladeshades and slash infs. They need to be lower RR, my TG sword needs to go off and I need to land a stun and them not have purge up. If they're rr5 and over then for me, as an rr5 I have almost no chance because it becomes a pure dps race which I will always lose. And I've also PAed an rr7 slash inf named gullys and lost so I understand what phixion is talking about

You're wrong if you think an off-evade stun wouldn't have an impact; you literally just stated an important factor in deciding the outcome of a fight between you and a blade shade is whether you get stun off...

So what do we do... play with the armor tables? Change midgard armor resistance to slash neutral? we're literally going to alter the leather armor table for midgard because blade shades are occasionally too difficult to fight? You see where I'm going here, right?
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:42 PM by Padatoo
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:30 PM
An off evade stun would have no impact at all except at rr4 and below.

Ugh....srsly?Do you even play an assasin?
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:43 PM by jelzinga_EU
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:55 PM
Let me put it this way. Your example simply pointed out that the top 3 SB's have roughly twice as many deaths as the top 2 night shades. That is correct, right?

Based on that statistic, are you implying that SB's require a buff? For what reason, they aren't struggling to earn kills.

The only thing "wrong' with my reasoning is that it's against SB's receiving unnecessary buffs and obviously there are quite a few here that don't want to see the other side of the logic.

The worse thing these people want to hear is that 'yes there is a differential between NS's and SB's and it's going to stay that way'. Do you know why? Because it's part of the game. DAoC is not a game of mirrored classes. DEAL WITH IT.

For the seventh time: Give shadow blades an off-evade stun @ 4-5s duration and that is it.

You seem to repeat yourselves - but you do not read very well. I pointed out that your flaw is singling out 1 statistic (amount of solo-kills) and base some sort of conclusion out of it. You then assume my counter-example was given as some sort of argument why I think SB's need a buff, showing me you don't understand my point at all. As I pointed out before, this is very dangerous (or, as my old professor would say: It is 99.99% wrong). My entire point is that you shouldn't do that and as a counter-example I gave you a single statistic (amount of deaths) which is the entire opposite of what you claim. Is one of us wrong? Perhaps, but more likely a single statistic like yours has no real correlation with the "fact" you trying to proof or disproof.

None of the SB's in this topic seem to claim SB struggles to get solo kills. They claim they struggle against certain classes and specifically their 'mirrors/equivalents from other realms'. You can argue if that warrants a buff or not, and you can even argue they don't struggle against their counterparts, but when you make such a claim it is wise to back it up with some sort of argument why you think they do not need something to make them equal to their counterparts - and personally I think the "realms are different" a pretty poor excuse. You can hyperbole/extrapolate that to any imbalance in the game and it would be valid (and just as ridiculous).
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 PM by Mauriac
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:42 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:30 PM
An off evade stun would have no impact at all except at rr4 and below.

Ugh....srsly?Do you even play an assasin?

Yes. When you get past rr3 and realize that every stun gets purged come back and talk about it then. SBs problem is damage. Not stuns. I don't give a damn if I can stun someone for 4 seconds when the damage I do in that window can be made up in their next 2 hits.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:46 PM by Padatoo
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:42 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:30 PM
An off evade stun would have no impact at all except at rr4 and below.

Ugh....srsly?Do you even play an assasin?

Yes. When you get past rr3 and realize that every stun gets purged come back and talk about it then.


Blind much?Every stun purged? Are you one of those "pro" sins who sneak all the way from pk to enemy mg?
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:50 PM by Mauriac
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:42 PM
Ugh....srsly?Do you even play an assasin?

Yes. When you get past rr3 and realize that every stun gets purged come back and talk about it then.


Blind much?Every stun purged? Are you one of those "pro" sins who sneak all the way from pk to enemy mg?

Actually sometimes I do stealth from the PK to the MG. Depends on if the task zone is the one I'm in or not and there is a lot of traffic. Or if I'm seeing lots of spam or people are telling me that there are sneak zergs out. Or if I just ate a PA running in the open or just burned my vanish after getting hit with instant amnesia. Guess it depends. Does that make sense or was that too much thinking for you? Once again, when you fight any rr5 and over assassins, guess what, almost all the time they purge your stun so who cares. But can you purge their damage? Nope. I can't even remember the last time I died because I couldn't purge an off evade stun. I die because I don't hit nearly as hard.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:08 PM by Padatoo
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:50 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:44 PM
Yes. When you get past rr3 and realize that every stun gets purged come back and talk about it then.


Blind much?Every stun purged? Are you one of those "pro" sins who sneak all the way from pk to enemy mg?

Once again, when you fight any rr5 and over assassins, guess what, almost all the time they purge your stun so who cares. But can you purge their damage? Nope.

You just show yourself as incompetent noobsin ,please reroll zerker or stop responding here at least.

1.You "purge" their blade dmg by applying ws/con + str + haste + decease debuffs .
2.Before applying the debuffs, you want to be sure that opponent wont purge them (unless you carry 4+ weapons sets and can apply them all over again)
3.Having a stun>purge happening early(if at all) allows to go full monty with the debuffs earlier (if at all).
4.Purge5 cd is 5 minutes,not 5 seconds - 30% of the enemies I meet have it on cd,and every third time I die it happens because I got jumped while purge is on cd (I also have purge5,its not a panaceia).
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:09 PM by Mavella
I'd be curious to see the /played time of those top NS and SBs. I'd imagine with so many more deaths it would be significantly higher as that's a considerable amount of time spent respawning/porting/running back to the action. As well as considerably more spent on pots and charges. I'm actually quite surprised at the disparity there and would like to see how Infs compare as well.

Maybe sb's gotta put a whole lot more time/money/effort in to be as successful. Seems that way to me!
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:36 PM by Mauriac
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:08 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:50 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Blind much?Every stun purged? Are you one of those "pro" sins who sneak all the way from pk to enemy mg?

Once again, when you fight any rr5 and over assassins, guess what, almost all the time they purge your stun so who cares. But can you purge their damage? Nope.

You just show yourself as incompetent noobsin ,please reroll zerker or stop responding here at least.

1.You "purge" their blade dmg by applying ws/con + str + haste + decease debuffs .
2.Before applying the debuffs, you want to be sure that opponent wont purge them (unless you carry 4+ weapons sets and can apply them all over again)
3.Having a stun>purge happening early(if at all) allows to go full monty with the debuffs earlier (if at all).
4.Purge5 cd is 5 minutes,not 5 seconds - 30% of the enemies I meet have it on cd,and every third time I die it happens because I got jumped while purge is on cd (I also have purge5,its not a panaceia).

Omg tell me something more I don't already know because you're clearly the master!! I already run 4 weapons with lifebane, 2 with ws/con debuff in case of resist or add, 2 with disease for the same reason, 1 with haste debuff and one with crippling and I run TG skald swords for the str/con debuff but by all means please teach me about debuff stacking and poison rotations.

Where exactly did you get the 30% number? A wild ass guess or literally just your ass? Yeah, I run into lots of rr3 and 4s whose purge is down. Of infs NS rr5 and over I've had exactly 3 fights where my opponents purge was down. I won 2 and the 3rd one the target vanished. 5 min purge isn't a panacea but it's close and once again damage is the issue. Go get r5 and start fighting people r5 and over. That will give you an idea of what being an SB is in the long run because guess what. Those r3 and r4s you beat up on don't stay r3 and r4 forever. Shocking. But I look forward to your next informative post about stuff I already know. I also look forward to your assessment of my ability to play this game without actually even knowing who my character is. Are you a psychic? Oh wait, just another know it all forum ninja.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:03 PM by Padatoo
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:36 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:08 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:50 PM
Once again, when you fight any rr5 and over assassins, guess what, almost all the time they purge your stun so who cares. But can you purge their damage? Nope.

You just show yourself as incompetent noobsin ,please reroll zerker or stop responding here at least.

1.You "purge" their blade dmg by applying ws/con + str + haste + decease debuffs .
2.Before applying the debuffs, you want to be sure that opponent wont purge them (unless you carry 4+ weapons sets and can apply them all over again)
3.Having a stun>purge happening early(if at all) allows to go full monty with the debuffs earlier (if at all).
4.Purge5 cd is 5 minutes,not 5 seconds - 30% of the enemies I meet have it on cd,and every third time I die it happens because I got jumped while purge is on cd (I also have purge5,its not a panaceia).

another pointless response
Blind & incompetent & tryhard.
Just stop responding here please.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:25 PM by Mauriac
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:03 PM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:36 PM
Padatoo wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:08 PM
You just show yourself as incompetent noobsin ,please reroll zerker or stop responding here at least.

1.You "purge" their blade dmg by applying ws/con + str + haste + decease debuffs .
2.Before applying the debuffs, you want to be sure that opponent wont purge them (unless you carry 4+ weapons sets and can apply them all over again)
3.Having a stun>purge happening early(if at all) allows to go full monty with the debuffs earlier (if at all).
4.Purge5 cd is 5 minutes,not 5 seconds - 30% of the enemies I meet have it on cd,and every third time I die it happens because I got jumped while purge is on cd (I also have purge5,its not a panaceia).

another pointless response
Blind & incompetent & tryhard.
Just stop responding here please.

Oh sure. Just because you asked. I think I'd rather stick around and continue reading the nonsense people like you post. It's a constant reminder to me of why some people are just meant to make french fries.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:30 PM by dante`afk
We're not going to achieve anything by responding to those troll walls

The statistics only show one side of the story; without knowing both their /played time - it's not saying much overall. Maybe a GM would shed some light? I'm willing to bet an arm and a leg, 50p and 500$ that the Mid SB's there have a significantly higher /played time by a large margin.

On that combat log from phixion, you did not re-apply debuffs after he purged. You also did not repoisen him with lifebane. There is only one lifebane tick on the whole log shown. Are you using weariness/lethargy poisons? 47 debuff + 17 debuff stacked? We're have to use every tool there is, while our counterparts are allowed to slack to have the same result.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:48 PM by Mauriac
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:30 PM
We're not going to achieve anything by responding to those troll walls

The statistics only show one side of the story; without knowing both their /played time - it's not saying much overall. Maybe a GM would shed some light? I'm willing to bet an arm and a leg, 50p and 500$ that the Mid SB's there have a significantly higher /played time by a large margin.

On that combat log from phixion, you did not re-apply debuffs after he purged. You also did not repoisen him with lifebane. There is only one lifebane tick on the whole log shown. Are you using weariness/lethargy poisons? 47 debuff + 17 debuff stacked? We're have to use every tool there is, while our counterparts are allowed to slack to have the same result.

Very true. I'm actually enjoying this though. Granted I think amphs arguments are mindlessly dumb (not the individual, don't know the guy irl, can't comment) and that padatoo likely doesn't solo much or fight high RRs (that's an assumption, could be wrong) but otherwise I imagine this is just a way for all of us to vent on the treadmill of idiocy that are internet forums. We don't even know if the devs are even looking at this topic much. Too bad you can't drink beer on forums. We would all get along with beer.
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:54 PM by dante`afk
look no further, not needed to comment on him

https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/DLisin
Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:24 PM by Riac
in terms of figuring out /play you can find a roundabout (probably not too accurate) way by look at task rps, the more /play you have the larger that task rp number is going to be especially if it was post task changes.

another thing worth looking at is the disparity in alb kills vs hib kills, if yall are anything like me then youll have a shit load more alb kills. i do my best to dodge hib areas due to how it plays out vs rangers and NS. even the blade rangers are hardasses, i almost got beat down the other day by a r4 luri and i had all the poisons on him, i didnt get PA but thank god his IP was down.

changing mid armor tables to slash neutral and crush vuln really doesnt seem that intrusive to me, sbs are the only ones that wear leather and itll just be a 10% dmg spread vs blade users instead of a 20% spread, still a disadvantage but it shouldnt be a blow out like it is now. all the tanks/lights tanks that were beating me im sure its not due to my armor type, its more or less im getting slammed and then getting fucked up. it makes the friat fight that much harder, but im not fucken with them anyways, that heal proc stays goen off for them. LA mechanic, a friars best friend.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 10:00 AM by Padatoo
dante`afk wrote:
Mauriac wrote:
Clicked on those 2 and here's what I got:
Thu 28 Mar 2019 11:20 AM by Mauriac
Congrats on finding my baby inf. I'll be on my sb
Thu 28 Mar 2019 1:58 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:48 PM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:30 PM
We're not going to achieve anything by responding to those troll walls

The statistics only show one side of the story; without knowing both their /played time - it's not saying much overall. Maybe a GM would shed some light? I'm willing to bet an arm and a leg, 50p and 500$ that the Mid SB's there have a significantly higher /played time by a large margin.

On that combat log from phixion, you did not re-apply debuffs after he purged. You also did not repoisen him with lifebane. There is only one lifebane tick on the whole log shown. Are you using weariness/lethargy poisons? 47 debuff + 17 debuff stacked? We're have to use every tool there is, while our counterparts are allowed to slack to have the same result.

Very true. I'm actually enjoying this though. Granted I think amphs arguments are mindlessly dumb (not the individual, don't know the guy irl, can't comment) and that padatoo likely doesn't solo much or fight high RRs (that's an assumption, could be wrong) but otherwise I imagine this is just a way for all of us to vent on the treadmill of idiocy that are internet forums. We don't even know if the devs are even looking at this topic much. Too bad you can't drink beer on forums. We would all get along with beer.

Like I said before. I'm not against helping SB's out if something reasonable is proposed. What I will present as my base argument is a few things:
1. Is the disparity such that a change is absolutely required?
    Are Shadow Blades in such a horrible position that they cannot perform at a mediocre level?
The answer to this is no. Shadowblades struggle against certain blade shades (and infils? They've hardly been mentioned). Aside from a handful of lopsided combat logs against certain blade shades, I haven't been presented with nearly enough data to suggest that Shadow Blades are truly under-performing in any aspect of RvR. Struggling against a niche spec'd enemy class is one thing and in my personal opinion that doesn't warrant half the changes being requested.

2. Are the suggestions being presented reasonable. Are they capable of being implemented with little consequence to the over-all stability of how the class currently performs whilst alleviating the issue being addressed.
    Would implementing features such as Bludgeon, altering the Midgard leather armor table and/or implementing a 4-5s off-evade combat stun function to address the current match-up concerns regarding 'blade-shade' versus Shadow Blade encounters without having unintended or unnecessary consequences elsewhere?
Introducing Bludgeon for Shadow Blades would not only assist them in combating blade-shades, it would also cause them to perform better than they currently do against every class that is crush vulnerable. This is not necessary nor should it be implemented because Shadow Blades are currently only struggling against Blade-Shades and they do not require any additional advantage against the classes that would subsequently be effected.

I can only speculate on the issues with altering something as core to the game as the armor tables. I'd imagine it'd be a massive undertaking, or it could be relatively painless and simple and have virtually no complications. I don't see any justifiable reasoning for the entire leather armor table to be altered however.

Night Shades and Infiltrators each have a combat specced off-evade stun style. Shadow Blades have a two part stun style. I can easily see this being altered so that Shadow Blades earn an off-evade combat style similar to what the NS' and Infil's earn in terms of specialization requirements and duration of stun.

You refer to me as a "wall" because that is true. I'm not going to change my opinion because some players "feel" that they struggle too much against certain Night shades. I'm also not going to change my opinion based on nonsensical attacks on my character. I fully admitted, multiple times, that SB's have a natural disadvantage against Blade Shades. What hasn't been presented yet is reasoning that warrants a change. If the disparity was so great, then Shadow Blades essentially should be unable to defeat blade specced Night Shades. This isn't the case. There are certain Blade-Shades that are very difficult to defeat, that have taken advantage of the mis-match between themselves and Shadow Blades. Does that make the Blade-Shade overpowered? No. In the context of the other classes they will encounter they're quite beatable as they rely primarily on Strength for their damage output and Lurikeens/Elves are not going to be breaking many strength soft caps. They also have lower constitution and hit points due to the races that are offered.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:23 PM by Riac
the off evade stun isn't going to help all that much unless you are high cs, then its kinda ok since you can go straight into a hamstring/leaper combo but for la spec its kinda shitty. they will just purge then i gotta worry about reapplying poison and hope nothing gets resisted (pain in the ass) id rather just hold my stun and them not purge my shit.

i dont see how changing the leather armor table is not the easiest solution. this effects next to nothing aside from the match up vs blade shades and infs, and im pretty sure this would be a super easy thing to change and there is only one class that uses leather in midgard. all the ppl that are beating sbs will still be beating them even with this armor change.

and an off evade stun isnt going to fix a 20% dmg spread. just because you think off evade stun is the best answer doesnt mean it actually is. but seeing as you dont actually play a stealther i wouldnt really expect you to understand the nuance of the situation.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 4:15 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 3:23 PM
the off evade stun isn't going to help all that much unless you are high cs, then its kinda ok since you can go straight into a hamstring/leaper combo but for la spec its kinda shitty. they will just purge then i gotta worry about reapplying poison and hope nothing gets resisted (pain in the ass) id rather just hold my stun and them not purge my shit.

i dont see how changing the leather armor table is not the easiest solution. this effects next to nothing aside from the match up vs blade shades and infs, and im pretty sure this would be a super easy thing to change and there is only one class that uses leather in midgard. all the ppl that are beating sbs will still be beating them even with this armor change.

and an off evade stun isnt going to fix a 20% dmg spread. just because you think off evade stun is the best answer doesnt mean it actually is. but seeing as you dont actually play a stealther i wouldnt really expect you to understand the nuance of the situation.

You're assuming far too much here and hypothesizing answers to C and D when A and B haven't even been tested.

The fact that you immediately assume that adding an off-evade stun wouldn't be beneficial implies that you're unwilling to compromise with something reasonable. It is not up to you, nor me, to decide if altering the armor resistance tables is reasonable or not. But I do find it hilarious that it's even being suggested simply to deal with a single class utilizing a single spec line.

Once again I'll state it for you and the others that feel this is a reasonable argument: Making a general statement such as "...but seeing as you dont actually play a stealther i wouldnt really expect you to understand the nuance of the situation" is probably one of the worst counter arguments you can make.

For example: In my charge thread did I discredit a single counter opinion simply because the individual didn't play a charge tank? I welcomed all opinions because whether you play the class in question, understand the class in question, have played the class in question, or have played against the class in question, being open to the opinion of individuals with any level of knowledge in the situation helps one build a stronger foundation of reasoning.

Your childish dismissals and inability to compromise at a level you deem unfit are the reasons why your "suggestions" will be dismissed as well.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 4:20 PM by dante`afk
An after evade stun would be a first step into the right direction, but ultimately not the goal. It is one thing to hit the opener for the stun (that is currently in place) and not having it missed/evaded, it's another additional layer of trouble to hit the actual stun style. It would be a compromise, at best. At the moment I spend more time trying to land the stun due to evade/miss, than having the opportunity to do the hamstring combo - at all. Having the stun go off evade immediately, opens up potentially more damage because it would allow you to hit the hamstring combo, several times possibly.

Re-applying seamlessly poisons of all kinds should be you bread and butter and as a good SB should be done blind. You have to consider that if an enemy purges that, he's already missing effectively 15-20% of his healthpool purging the debuff.

But hey, as said above, not the ultimate goal - because you're still going to get outdamaged. Not only from blade/slash users.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 4:27 PM by Riac
why are you so fixated on the off evade stun?? seeing as inf and ns get the OPTION to spec into my vulnerability and i do not get the option, nor the option for a 1 step off evade stun for that matter, it seems pretty reasonable to swap armor vuln over. now no one can spec into each others vulnerabilities (which seems way more fair imo).

and seeing how you have such a hard on about the externalities of changing things, id like to argue that giving shadowblades a one step off evade stun will effect WAY more matchups than the armor vuln swap. so id say your argument effects way more stuff than mine does, since mine only effects one class in 2 matchups (blade shades and blade infs).

and as to how you argue your points in other threads doesnt mean shit to me. a person arguing for a point while not having any sort of context on how the situation is ACTUALLY playing out carries less weight and should carry less weight.

but tbh idc if they fix it or not, ive given up on killing hibs, i just camp albs around amg. btw there was a reason they lowered the armor vuln variences to 5% on live, this makes it only a 10% spread from strong to weak (much like im advocating for in the vuln swap). if mid leather were made slash neutral and crush vuln (like the other stealthers) its only a 10% spread and sb will still be at a disadvantage. seems pretty reasonable to me.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:39 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 4:27 PM
why are you so fixated on the off evade stun?? seeing as inf and ns get the OPTION to spec into my vulnerability and i do not get the option, nor the option for a 1 step off evade stun for that matter, it seems pretty reasonable to swap armor vuln over. now no one can spec into each others vulnerabilities (which seems way more fair imo).

and seeing how you have such a hard on about the externalities of changing things, id like to argue that giving shadowblades a one step off evade stun will effect WAY more matchups than the armor vuln swap. so id say your argument effects way more stuff than mine does, since mine only effects one class in 2 matchups (blade shades and blade infs).

and as to how you argue your points in other threads doesnt mean shit to me. a person arguing for a point while not having any sort of context on how the situation is ACTUALLY playing out carries less weight and should carry less weight.

but tbh idc if they fix it or not, ive given up on killing hibs, i just camp albs around amg. btw there was a reason they lowered the armor vuln variences to 5% on live, this makes it only a 10% spread from strong to weak (much like im advocating for in the vuln swap). if mid leather were made slash neutral and crush vuln (like the other stealthers) its only a 10% spread and sb will still be at a disadvantage. seems pretty reasonable to me.

Quite simply because the off-evade stun is the most realistic and practical suggestion that's been proposed. Why are you so fixated on everything being 'fair'? This isn't Hello Kitty Island Adventures where everything is 'fair' and 'equal' and we all get participation trophies for trying (disregard realm ticks).

Onto your second point: you're wrong. Changing the resist tables of Mid leather will actually effect every single melee class in Albion and Hibernia.

Your third point is your personal opinion - you choose to define the value of what is being stated depending on whether it supports or hinders your argument. If I had came in, guns blazing, in full support of Shadow Blades from the get-go I suppose then it wouldn't matter if I main'd as a Mercenary, would it? .

#4. altering the total armor resistance variation from +/- 10% to +/- 5% would be interesting. That's something I'd like to hear a Developers input on.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 8:22 PM by Riac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:39 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 4:27 PM
why are you so fixated on the off evade stun?? seeing as inf and ns get the OPTION to spec into my vulnerability and i do not get the option, nor the option for a 1 step off evade stun for that matter, it seems pretty reasonable to swap armor vuln over. now no one can spec into each others vulnerabilities (which seems way more fair imo).

and seeing how you have such a hard on about the externalities of changing things, id like to argue that giving shadowblades a one step off evade stun will effect WAY more matchups than the armor vuln swap. so id say your argument effects way more stuff than mine does, since mine only effects one class in 2 matchups (blade shades and blade infs).

and as to how you argue your points in other threads doesnt mean shit to me. a person arguing for a point while not having any sort of context on how the situation is ACTUALLY playing out carries less weight and should carry less weight.

but tbh idc if they fix it or not, ive given up on killing hibs, i just camp albs around amg. btw there was a reason they lowered the armor vuln variences to 5% on live, this makes it only a 10% spread from strong to weak (much like im advocating for in the vuln swap). if mid leather were made slash neutral and crush vuln (like the other stealthers) its only a 10% spread and sb will still be at a disadvantage. seems pretty reasonable to me.

Quite simply because the off-evade stun is the most realistic and practical suggestion that's been proposed. Why are you so fixated on everything being 'fair'? This isn't Hello Kitty Island Adventures where everything is 'fair' and 'equal' and we all get participation trophies for trying (disregard realm ticks).

Onto your second point: you're wrong. Changing the resist tables of Mid leather will actually effect every single melee class in Albion and Hibernia.

Your third point is your personal opinion - you choose to define the value of what is being stated depending on whether it supports or hinders your argument. If I had came in, guns blazing, in full support of Shadow Blades from the get-go I suppose then it wouldn't matter if I main'd as a Mercenary, would it? .

#4. altering the total armor resistance variation from +/- 10% to +/- 5% would be interesting. That's something I'd like to hear a Developers input on.

considering i was advocating for somthing that still left me at a disadvantage (vs the blade stealthers) id say im not fixated on everything being "fair", id hate to say learn to read so instead ill say learn to logic.

currently im slash weak, and im exposed to light tanks and heavy tanks. if i were swapped to crush vuln (like what id like) all of hib LW users could just use their 2h hammer instead of their sword. this leaves the BMs, theyll just slam me and if i dont have purge im fucked no matter what spec they are and same goes for the spear heroes. wardens will probably just outlast me with pbt so id say weapon spec doesnt matter too much.

for the alb classes. the mercs are going to win with dirty tricks. arms are gonna slam and with no purge id have no chance no matter the weapon. reavers, levi hits like a truck as everyone knows. pallys i'd say it doesnt matter what weapon they used, thats more based on how much they heal and how long the fight goes especially since venom swaps have been stripped. the friars would be impossible except they already are impossible, so thats a wash.

thats all of the melee classes i can think of atm but i'd say an off evade stun would effect the fight much more than me being crush vuln instead of slash. what class is beating SBs but not NS due to the armor tables, or infs for that matter? tbh swapping sbs to crush vuln, like the other stealthers, benefits everyone else that wants to solo, they could just go crush and become stealth hunters. seems like somthing everyone would like.

and as far as stuff being my opinion, obv its my opinion. just as your post is YOUR OPINION. an off evade stun is the most realistic is just your opinion. the only difference is i'm a bit more informed on the interaction between sbs and blade stealthers than you are on this server. therefore i'd say my opinion carries a bit more weight. think of it in terms of a stock broker. he can give you his opinion just as your retard neighbor could also give you his opinion the only difference is one has a lot more experience in the given area.... see the difference?

ALL OF THIS IS ASSUMING SAME RR AND BUFFS, IF THEY SPEC SOME GROUP RAS AND TRYING TO SOLO THATS A BIT ON THEM AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY CLASS.
Thu 28 Mar 2019 9:13 PM by jelzinga_EU
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:39 PM
Quite simply because the off-evade stun is the most realistic and practical suggestion that's been proposed. Why are you so fixated on everything being 'fair'? This isn't Hello Kitty Island Adventures where everything is 'fair' and 'equal' and we all get participation trophies for trying (disregard realm ticks).

Onto your second point: you're wrong. Changing the resist tables of Mid leather will actually effect every single melee class in Albion and Hibernia.

Gruenesschaff suggested the armor-tables would ONLY be affected in melee-combat vs other stealthers (mincer/scout/ranger/NS). Archery would not be affected nor would be other classes. So it is the least big change to match-up for stealthers.

With that said, right now I would be happy with an instant off-evade stun too - if it was somewhere between 21-34 Axe/Sword-spec for 4-5 seconds
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:26 AM by Mauriac
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 9:13 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:39 PM
Quite simply because the off-evade stun is the most realistic and practical suggestion that's been proposed. Why are you so fixated on everything being 'fair'? This isn't Hello Kitty Island Adventures where everything is 'fair' and 'equal' and we all get participation trophies for trying (disregard realm ticks).

Onto your second point: you're wrong. Changing the resist tables of Mid leather will actually effect every single melee class in Albion and Hibernia.

Gruenesschaff suggested the armor-tables would ONLY be affected in melee-combat vs other stealthers (mincer/scout/ranger/NS). Archery would not be affected nor would be other classes. So it is the least big change to match-up for stealthers.

With that said, right now I would be happy with an instant off-evade stun too - if it was somewhere between 21-34 Axe/Sword-spec for 4-5 seconds

I'd take both and be moderately happy. It's not going to make up for 100 dmg disparities but it's a good start to continue to evaluate and see if it's worth adjusting again or staying out. Incremental changes are better than big ones.
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:30 AM by Riac
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:26 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 9:13 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 6:39 PM
Quite simply because the off-evade stun is the most realistic and practical suggestion that's been proposed. Why are you so fixated on everything being 'fair'? This isn't Hello Kitty Island Adventures where everything is 'fair' and 'equal' and we all get participation trophies for trying (disregard realm ticks).

Onto your second point: you're wrong. Changing the resist tables of Mid leather will actually effect every single melee class in Albion and Hibernia.

Gruenesschaff suggested the armor-tables would ONLY be affected in melee-combat vs other stealthers (mincer/scout/ranger/NS). Archery would not be affected nor would be other classes. So it is the least big change to match-up for stealthers.

With that said, right now I would be happy with an instant off-evade stun too - if it was somewhere between 21-34 Axe/Sword-spec for 4-5 seconds

I'd take both and be moderately happy. It's not going to make up for 100 dmg disparities but it's a good start to continue to evaluate and see if it's worth adjusting again or staying out. Incremental changes are better than big ones.

at this point id take either or
Fri 29 Mar 2019 2:13 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:30 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:26 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Mar 2019 9:13 PM
Gruenesschaff suggested the armor-tables would ONLY be affected in melee-combat vs other stealthers (mincer/scout/ranger/NS). Archery would not be affected nor would be other classes. So it is the least big change to match-up for stealthers.

With that said, right now I would be happy with an instant off-evade stun too - if it was somewhere between 21-34 Axe/Sword-spec for 4-5 seconds

I'd take both and be moderately happy. It's not going to make up for 100 dmg disparities but it's a good start to continue to evaluate and see if it's worth adjusting again or staying out. Incremental changes are better than big ones.

at this point id take either or

See Mauriac, this is the slippery slope I was referring to. You're already dissatisfied with changes that haven't even occurred to benefit your class #NeverContent.
Fri 29 Mar 2019 2:54 PM by Amp_Phetamine
I was thinking deeply regarding the concept of lowering the total armor resistance variance from +/- 10% to +/- 5% across the boards.

It is really intriguing and I'd like to know if there would be any undesirable consequences to doing so. By all accounts this would slightly alleviate the main issue Shadow Blades are experiencing with blade specced Night Shades but may also be beneficial for all melee dps classes?

Or would this be detrimental due to how the custom changes to melee dps functions on this server (from what I understand it was intentionally altered to be lowered? Although I have no idea in what regard).

Also I'm still 100% in support of implementing an off-evade stun for SB's as well.
Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:16 PM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 2:13 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:30 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:26 AM
I'd take both and be moderately happy. It's not going to make up for 100 dmg disparities but it's a good start to continue to evaluate and see if it's worth adjusting again or staying out. Incremental changes are better than big ones.

at this point id take either or

See Mauriac, this is the slippery slope I was referring to. You're already dissatisfied with changes that haven't even occurred to benefit your class #NeverContent.

Because unlike you I actually have an idea of how it would play out. Can I say for certain without it actually happening? Of course not, but once again, I have an informed opinion based on experience and playing an SB and you fall back on theories and assumptions.

I would be in favor of you getting the special treatment and getting an i50 templated SB that you could play with for a couple weeks just so for once you could understand how it really works. Then you would see how little a stun would matter.

Having said that, if you had bothered to read what I wrote, you might have caught the part about where I said incremental changes are better than big ones. The implication there was that it allows you to iterate more accurately and gather new information to continually assess. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.
Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:21 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:16 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 2:13 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 1:30 AM
at this point id take either or

See Mauriac, this is the slippery slope I was referring to. You're already dissatisfied with changes that haven't even occurred to benefit your class #NeverContent.

Because unlike you I actually have an idea of how it would play out. Can I say for certain without it actually happening? Of course not, but once again, I have an informed opinion based on experience and playing an SB and you fall back on theories and assumptions.

I would be in favor of you getting the special treatment and getting an i50 templated SB that you could play with for a couple weeks just so for once you could understand how it really works. Then you would see how little a stun would matter.

Having said that, if you had bothered to read what I wrote, you might have caught the part about where I said incremental changes are better than big ones. The implication there was that it allows you to iterate more accurately and gather new information to continually assess. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

I am actually completely aware of how assassins play and function. Like I've stated before, and not that it matters, but I've played DAoC long enough to have played every single class in the game with multiple specs over the years.

Honestly the post I commented on by you was completely theory and assumption lol, that's why I responded the way I did.

I comprehended perfectly what you stated. You simultaneously stated: 'You could add everything I'm asking for and it would only be a mediocre fix at best', while simultaneously stating 'but only make small changes, so we can address how terrible of a positional shadow blades will continue to be in and continue to improve them moving forward'.

That was the essence of your post.
Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:49 PM by Riac
Pls dont insult players. Thank you. Greetings, Uthred.
Fri 29 Mar 2019 8:05 PM by Amp_Phetamine
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:49 PM
Pls dont insult players. Thank you. Greetings, Uthred.

Resorting to personal insults I see, man, you're way too affected. You should take a step outside and get some fresh air.

Don't be upset that my outlook is far more reasonable than yours, simply because unlike you, I don't wish to see a class buffed unnecessarily.

As long as QQ whiners like you post, I'll continue to voice reasonable objections. But please, continue to attempt and attack my character while simultaneously "attempting" to provide plausible suggestions. Neither of which you do well.
Sun 31 Mar 2019 2:14 AM by Mauriac
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 8:05 PM
Riac wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Mar 2019 6:49 PM
Pls dont insult players. Thank you. Greetings, Uthred.

Resorting to personal insults I see, man, you're way too affected. You should take a step outside and get some fresh air.

Don't be upset that my outlook is far more reasonable than yours, simply because unlike you, I don't wish to see a class buffed unnecessarily.

As long as QQ whiners like you post, I'll continue to voice reasonable objections. But please, continue to attempt and attack my character while simultaneously "attempting" to provide plausible suggestions. Neither of which you do well.

Personal insults that went your way were unnecessary. On a side note though, your objections have been hardly reasonable.
Mon 29 Apr 2019 8:48 PM by phixion
It's long beyond a joke now tbh.

Still putting up with 20% dmg spread.

Still don't have a stun off evade.

You can look at my RPs, but don't get it twisted... the fact is I play a lot. I still have to put up with losing to people 5+ RR below me due to RNG, vulnerability to slash and no stun off evade.

I have close to ZERO chance of getting stun off on anything that can evade.

Starting to grow tired of this. Please, give us SOMETHING. 10% dmg spread and a stun off evade would be absolutely fantastic.

Playing a SB just feels like you have everything stacked against you tbh, I'm sorry to say but I'm pretty sure a NS or Inf equal my rank would absolutely wipe the floor with me 9/10 times.
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Suggestions or the latest topics