Poison swap still possible - Phoenix Freeshard

hey just had a fight where a nightshade constantly swaped weapons with every hit and with every hit you can see the message "you have been poisoned"
see here

https://www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-27b63a-1552589770.jpg.html

Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:26 PM by lurker

This is working correctly as I understand the change.

You can still reapply it every tick if you want to (he probably just does not realise there has been a change).

BUT. If your opponent is already positioned they will not take the first ticks damage at the point of that re-application. It will happen when it next would have ticked.

So he is just effectively just resetting the number of ticks with each swing back to the max again. But it won’t kick in until the next tick would have happened anyway. He need not apply each tick for the same effect now, but is.

Sorry if that’s not clear?

Thu 14 Mar 2019 7:57 PM by Victos

Let's see:
You swing
Swing->evade
Swing->evade
You swing
Swing->poison
You swing
Swing->poison
You swing-evade
Swing-> nothing
You swing
Swing->poison
Swing->nothing
You swing
Swing->poison after pet hit (meaning there was a delay between weapon hit and tick)
Swing->nothing
Swing->evade
Pet swing
Poison tick

Without timestamps it's hard to see whether these poisons got actually applied and ticked right away or whether his swing speed just somewhat matches half the poison tick interval.

There are only two consecutive swings where a poison ticked on both, again without knowing the swing speed/timestamps this is quite hard to analyse.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:20 AM by inoeth

well why would someone reapply dots with every hit? it would be enough to do this like 2x in a fight but not more and this looks like he did it with every swing....
also i noticed the green dot cloud... so i am curious if there maybe is a bug

Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:00 AM by Victos

Do you have the chat logs by any chance? I think they would help clear that situation up as we could see whether the frequency of the poison changed (is too high) or not.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:09 AM by Sepplord

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
well why would someone reapply dots with every hit? it would be enough to do this like 2x in a fight but not more and this looks like he did it with every swing....
also i noticed the green dot cloud... so i am curious if there maybe is a bug

because loads of people are ignorant to changes that happen on the server and just do what they always do.
Unless you read forums / patchnotes or carefully analyse your chatlog you wouldn't know that something got changed.
The cloud should be still there, as the poison is reapplied still...it just doesn't do the initial dmgtick, and simply resets the duration (ofcourse only IF it is working as intended)

Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:11 AM by inoeth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 9:09 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
well why would someone reapply dots with every hit? it would be enough to do this like 2x in a fight but not more and this looks like he did it with every swing....
also i noticed the green dot cloud... so i am curious if there maybe is a bug

because loads of people are ignorant to changes that happen on the server and just do what they always do.
Unless you read forums / patchnotes or carefully analyse your chatlog you wouldn't know that something got changed.
The cloud should be still there, as the poison is reapplied still...it just doesn't do the initial dmgtick, and simply resets the duration (ofcourse only IF it is working as intended)

you maybe have a point there, i monitor this further though

Fri 15 Mar 2019 10:12 AM by Durgrim

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
well why would someone reapply dots with every hit? it would be enough to do this like 2x in a fight but not more and this looks like he did it with every swing....
also i noticed the green dot cloud... so i am curious if there maybe is a bug

Maybe he was still lazy and did not change his macros so far.
But you should definitely not have gotten the initial dmg from the poison, haven't you?

Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:34 AM by inoeth

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 10:12 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
well why would someone reapply dots with every hit? it would be enough to do this like 2x in a fight but not more and this looks like he did it with every swing....
also i noticed the green dot cloud... so i am curious if there maybe is a bug

Maybe he was still lazy and did not change his macros so far.
But you should definitely not have gotten the initial dmg from the poison, haven't you?

it looks like that in the logs but without time stamps its hard to say

Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:53 PM by Bradekes

Anyone attempted to use lower level dmg poisin and swap to gradually higher ranks to see if you can still apply on every hit?

Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:58 PM by Sepplord

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:53 PM
Anyone attempted to use lower level dmg poisin and swap to gradually higher ranks to see if you can still apply on every hit?

Good question, should be relatively easy to test, i'll try it out tomorrow if noone else has till then.

At this point, though i definitely would consider someone doing that exploiting.
The change clearly shows the intention of the dev's regarding poison reapplication, and someone unware of the change would still be reapplying the strongest ones.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:02 PM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:58 PM
At this point, though i definitely would consider someone doing that exploiting.

Yeah, I think so too, just a thought tho seeings that's the only way I could see this still happening... But it really wouldn't be breaking any rules just bypassing the system..

Like would it be exploiting if a duo of rogues purposely used two different levels of poison so they could both frontload their first hits with poison damage? Seeings this could be the only real nerf from this change?

Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:25 PM by Sepplord

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:02 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:58 PM
At this point, though i definitely would consider someone doing that exploiting.

Yeah, I think so too, just a thought tho seeings that's the only way I could see this still happening... But it really wouldn't be breaking any rules just bypassing the system..

Like would it be exploiting if a duo of rogues purposely used two different levels of poison so they could both frontload their first hits with poison damage? Seeings this could be the only real nerf from this change?

Bypassing the system is breaking the rules

But yeah, i didn't take your comment as if you would do it.

I guess it get's really tricky regarding multiple assassins. I must admit i have never thought about the poison interaction of multiple stealthers before

Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:41 PM by

gruenesschaf

The poison message could actually be happening every tick, not only on each application, haven't looked into lifebane but most poisons have some flavor text on each tick which is the same as the initial gain message iirc.

The override and stacking rules for dots haven't changed, there can only be one dot per line and a lower value dot in the same line cannot override a higher value dot. That also applies for lifebane with viper and someone else without viper.

Or to clarify, the override / stacking rules haven't changed further because of the poison swap change than what we did at some point in beta where we made it one per line with spec and base line being separate which at 1.65 was already the case for almost all dots but I think shaman spec and base didn't stack but do now.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:51 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:41 PM
The override and stacking rules for dots haven't changed, there can only be one dot per line and a lower value dot in the same line cannot override a higher value dot. That also applies for lifebane with viper and someone else without viper.

Yes but is doing the reverse breaking the rules? I don't like poison swapping anyways but just curious.. Like putting level 35 poison on your equipped weapon apply
Swap to level 40 poison apply
Swap to 45 poison apply
Swap to 50 apply..
This would allow for poison applications on every swing at greater and greater value.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:06 PM by Durgrim

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:34 AM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 10:12 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
well why would someone reapply dots with every hit? it would be enough to do this like 2x in a fight but not more and this looks like he did it with every swing....
also i noticed the green dot cloud... so i am curious if there maybe is a bug

Maybe he was still lazy and did not change his macros so far.
But you should definitely not have gotten the initial dmg from the poison, haven't you?

it looks like that in the logs but without time stamps its hard to say

have you tried the daoc parser? there is an options which gives you the realtime stamp...but that's really an interesting point....
what would you say from the 'feeling' about received dmg? lesser than couple o weeks ago?

Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:08 PM by

gruenesschaf

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:51 PM
Yes but is doing the reverse breaking the rules? I don't like poison swapping anyways but just curious.. Like putting level 35 poison on your equipped weapon apply
Swap to level 40 poison apply
Swap to 45 poison apply
Swap to 50 apply..
This would allow for poison applications on every swing at greater and greater value.

Replacement is the same as reapplication. Assuming you swap on every hit In this case you would get the damage of the level 40 poison, nothing from level 45 one and 4 seconds after applying lifebane the first lifebane tick.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:24 PM by DinoTriz

Dot poison ticks for damage every few seconds.

When it damages something, it will say "Soandso has been poisoned!" each time.

So the stealther most likely poisoned you once and you thought it was multiple times due to the combat text.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:34 PM by inoeth

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:24 PM
Dot poison ticks for damage every few seconds.

When it damages something, it will say "Soandso has been poisoned!" each time.

So the stealther most likely poisoned you once and you thought it was multiple times due to the combat text.

i dont think so because i saw the poison cloud several times

Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:59 PM by Dominus

and during all that, your avatar only hit him 2x?

Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:48 PM by DinoTriz

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 3:34 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:24 PM
Dot poison ticks for damage every few seconds.

When it damages something, it will say "Soandso has been poisoned!" each time.

So the stealther most likely poisoned you once and you thought it was multiple times due to the combat text.

i dont think so because i saw the poison cloud several times

Well he can still hit you with other poisons and even the same poison, if he doesn't know better.

The nerf only nerfed the ability to instantly damage someone with the dot poison on every hit. The DoT still works and poison swapping is still allowed.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 11:21 PM by Joc

Something to think of also are dot procs perhaps. It appears that he is in fact swapping weapons since I see disease, snare, WS/con, and dots. I see a d/q debuff in there also which is a weapon proc. I know that certain dots from procs stack if they are of different types (ie. Matter, energy, body).

Maybe it wasn't a dot process on some, but maybe it was?

Sat 16 Mar 2019 12:07 AM by flyingnehpets

The poison ticks look like they are spaced out accordingly but time stamps would be required to properly determine what is happening.