really need to add these in as 20/20 use charge tokens. cost... 100bps for 10/10 charges, and 200bps for 20/20 charges, or...... add them into alchemy.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Speed of the realm
Started 3 Mar 2019
by
awqrew
in
Suggestions
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:20 PM
by
Quik
No speed pots plz.
Play a speed class or get a speed partner.
This is so unfair to classes with speed to reduce what give them an edge.
I understand pots aren't as good as speed, but it is still infringing.
Buff pots are already hurting the self buffing classes, lets not continue down this road =(
Play a speed class or get a speed partner.
This is so unfair to classes with speed to reduce what give them an edge.
I understand pots aren't as good as speed, but it is still infringing.
Buff pots are already hurting the self buffing classes, lets not continue down this road =(
Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:12 AM
by
Milchschnidde
There are allready hastner at each controlled keep, use them as waypoints
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:32 AM
by
defiasbandit
Agree 100%.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:46 PM
by
Brokenstring
Yeah if you want speed, play a speed class, or go make a speed class friend. Some people want to have it all on their one character, no!
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:40 PM
by
Roto23
If you take a keep you should be rewarded with one speed pot that is not sellable. If you are a class with better speed you get a pot that is sellable. This will make keep takes more desirable.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:22 PM
by
MyCatKevin
I would just like to know why Devs decided that buff, endo regen, pom, power heal, endo heal, hp heal pots are all fine but not speed pots.
I'm not sure why infringing on all those other classes' abilities is okay, but not speed classes'.
I'm not sure why infringing on all those other classes' abilities is okay, but not speed classes'.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:14 AM
by
Frieza
MyCatKevin wrote: ↑Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:22 PMI would just like to know why Devs decided that buff, endo regen, pom, power heal, endo heal, hp heal pots are all fine but not speed pots.
I'm not sure why infringing on all those other classes' abilities is okay, but not speed classes'.
Simple, the primary purpose of speed to get somewhere and thats it in most cases. Even if you win a 1on1, you are then at an even bigger advantage because you can move away quicker.
Regen pots are a diff ballgame all together.
As others have said, if you want speed, group a speed char. I go out into rvr everyday and i see tons of sorcs/ mins/ Theurgs LFG but still see solos run out by themself (to their death no doubt).
In summary, dont think all pots are the same, see why they are different and deal with this
Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:13 PM
by
MyCatKevin
Frieza wrote: ↑Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:14 AMMyCatKevin wrote: ↑Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:22 PMI would just like to know why Devs decided that buff, endo regen, pom, power heal, endo heal, hp heal pots are all fine but not speed pots.
I'm not sure why infringing on all those other classes' abilities is okay, but not speed classes'.
Simple, the primary purpose of speed to get somewhere and thats it in most cases. Even if you win a 1on1, you are then at an even bigger advantage because you can move away quicker.
Regen pots are a diff ballgame all together.
As others have said, if you want speed, group a speed char. I go out into rvr everyday and i see tons of sorcs/ mins/ Theurgs LFG but still see solos run out by themself (to their death no doubt).
In summary, dont think all pots are the same, see why they are different and deal with this
Honestly, speed pots would probably have the least effect of any of the pots besides from a QoL viewpoint.
It doesn't make your character stronger like buff pots, it doesn't allow you to permastyle/sprint in combat like Endu regen pots do. It doesn't heal you mid-fight like heal pots do.
What it does allow you to do though is to get through dead areas in rvr just a bit quicker.
I'm personally more of a fan of no pots buff, heal, regen of any kind in rvr. But that's likely a fairly unpopular opinion - so I'd say may as well add speed pots then.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:19 PM
by
defiasbandit
MyCatKevin wrote: ↑Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:13 PMFrieza wrote: ↑Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:14 AMMyCatKevin wrote: ↑Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:22 PMI would just like to know why Devs decided that buff, endo regen, pom, power heal, endo heal, hp heal pots are all fine but not speed pots.
I'm not sure why infringing on all those other classes' abilities is okay, but not speed classes'.
Simple, the primary purpose of speed to get somewhere and thats it in most cases. Even if you win a 1on1, you are then at an even bigger advantage because you can move away quicker.
Regen pots are a diff ballgame all together.
As others have said, if you want speed, group a speed char. I go out into rvr everyday and i see tons of sorcs/ mins/ Theurgs LFG but still see solos run out by themself (to their death no doubt).
In summary, dont think all pots are the same, see why they are different and deal with this
Honestly, speed pots would probably have the least effect of any of the pots besides from a QoL viewpoint.
It doesn't make your character stronger like buff pots, it doesn't allow you to permastyle/sprint in combat like Endu regen pots do. It doesn't heal you mid-fight like heal pots do.
What it does allow you to do though is to get through dead areas in rvr just a bit quicker.
I'm personally more of a fan of no pots buff, heal, regen of any kind in rvr. But that's likely a fairly unpopular opinion - so I'd say may as well add speed pots then.
Exactly.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 9:02 PM
by
Hejjin
So obviously you also feel the same way about the various buff pots as they are obviously unfair to those classes that are balanced around their buffs? No? What a surprise...Quik wrote: ↑Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:20 PMNo speed pots plz.
Play a speed class or get a speed partner.
This is so unfair to classes with speed to reduce what give them an edge.
I understand pots aren't as good as speed, but it is still infringing.
Buff pots are already hurting the self buffing classes, lets not continue down this road =(
A pot that is the equivalent of the speed 1 buff would be fine to me, as it would help post combat when my speed of the realm has dropped.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:30 PM
by
brewtus23
I would be fine with getting rid of all the buff pots. If you want buffs get a buff class friend, you want speed get a friend with speed. Seriously you want to give speed pots to everyone, well then i want poison pots for my skald also, and stealth pots, and a cc pot also. This way we all all everything and we can all just solo and have everything the same.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:36 PM
by
defiasbandit
brewtus23 wrote: ↑Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:30 PMI would be fine with getting rid of all the buff pots. If you want buffs get a buff class friend, you want speed get a friend with speed. Seriously you want to give speed pots to everyone, well then i want poison pots for my skald also, and stealth pots, and a cc pot also. This way we all all everything and we can all just solo and have everything the same.
Epic fail.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:43 AM
by
Hejjin
My Albion main is a Friar, so I have absolutely zero problems with all pots being removed from the game. I do however have concerns with the current implementation of alchemy where there are stat pots, but not for everything. If it is acceptable to have pots that are the equivalent of lower level stat buffs, there should also be speed and resist pots equivalent to lower level buffs. Do or Do Not, to quote Yoda.brewtus23 wrote: ↑Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:30 PMI would be fine with getting rid of all the buff pots. If you want buffs get a buff class friend, you want speed get a friend with speed. Seriously you want to give speed pots to everyone, well then i want poison pots for my skald also, and stealth pots, and a cc pot also. This way we all all everything and we can all just solo and have everything the same.
Of course they could just put place a Neutral Hastener at every supply master instead of creating pots, that would help slightly and would not reduce the need for classes that can buff movement speed...
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:15 PM
by
dudis
Considering Realm speed is already a thing, im not entirely opposed to adding speed pots/gems/whatever, BUT...
They need to have a long combat-timer similar to the combined buff potions so you cant use it during or shortly after combat.
They need to have a long combat-timer similar to the combined buff potions so you cant use it during or shortly after combat.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:08 PM
by
Milchschnidde
dudis wrote: ↑Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:15 PMConsidering Realm speed is already a thing, im not entirely opposed to adding speed pots/gems/whatever, BUT...
They need to have a long combat-timer similar to the combined buff potions so you cant use it during or shortly after combat.
you can allready run with tireless1 and long wind1 and endu 3 potion infinite, allways sprint count as speed as well so no need for potions....
Sat 9 Mar 2019 2:54 AM
by
Salviati
Quik wrote: ↑Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:20 PMNo speed pots plz.
Play a speed class or get a speed partner.
This is so unfair to classes with speed to reduce what give them an edge.
I understand pots aren't as good as speed, but it is still infringing.
Buff pots are already hurting the self buffing classes, lets not continue down this road =(
I feel the same about endurance buffs, haste, and stat buffs, DD charges, and debuffs. May as well give solos speed 4 potions at this rate. Go ahead and reduce the demand of bards/minstrels/and skalds a little bit.
Potions already ruin the 1v1 and small man game and trivialize paladins, friars, wardens, champions, and thanes. They benefit assassins the most and assassins are running around with spec-level buffs from easily-gained charge items and potions. I don't understand why they just don't allow people to box as many accounts as they want. If someone wants to bot speed and a spec buffer at this rate, that would screw them up more than potions.
This server is already super casual incarnate and they've tossed RvR balance out the window to keep moths chasing flames. May as well keep improving on the path.
Sun 10 Mar 2019 2:36 PM
by
rubaduck
I know a few of the forum fighters are breathing fire to this debate, like defiasbandit. But do a quick search, and you'll see the answer which has been said multiple times in multiple posts. They won't add anything speed related other then what is already here now. Why beat a dead horse?
Sun 10 Mar 2019 3:05 PM
by
AngelRose
Though not having access to speed can be annoying, one of the biggest mistakes dev's made on ywain was taking unique abilities from a class and giving it to everyone. After people put years into speed classes, dev's basically killed the mini and skald class. They tried to make up with for it with stupid stuff that was totally unneeded in game. And the new stuff didn't really matter, because other classes were still better in groups then skalds and minis
I hope the dev's dont start making the same mistakes here.
I hope the dev's dont start making the same mistakes here.
Sun 10 Mar 2019 3:36 PM
by
Milchschnidde
Only one think that could be a cool feature to add a skill "Adrenalin" that boosts sprint up 2x and increase its endu consumption by 2x so you run faster fo a short duration in exchance for double endurence consumption for all chars
Mon 11 Mar 2019 8:36 PM
by
Zirc
Quik wrote: ↑Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:20 PMNo speed pots plz.
Play a speed class or get a speed partner.
This is so unfair to classes with speed to reduce what give them an edge.
I understand pots aren't as good as speed, but it is still infringing.
Buff pots are already hurting the self buffing classes, lets not continue down this road =(
So you must be against all pots, right?
Heal pots are unfair to classes with heals to reduce what gives them an edge. Buff pots vs buffers.
We're already down this road. If you're going to be "unfair" by giving people low level buffs, some heals, etc, why WOULDN'T you also give them low level speed?
The balance of it could come from the cost of the mats, the duration of the pot, the value of the speed buff, etc. Hell, there are stealth lore potions that are balanced that way. Just saying "don't do it" is about the worst argument you could bring.
Speed pots are just as fair as buff pots and end pots. That's not even a question. The question is how to balance them all so that classes still have value and identity.
Wed 13 Mar 2019 2:58 AM
by
Sepphiroth75
I personally would like to see hastners added to milegate houses and possibly an extra one in each zone
Wed 13 Mar 2019 6:00 PM
by
cere2
Would anyone care if we had speed of the hunt that did not work in frontier or rvr zones like DF etc?
I mean try making a hero and getting a group. Most of the time not happening. So leveling is mostly run here kill this run back or run somewhere.....
Having speed pots that work only in your own realm would really help classes that don't get groups and anyone for that matter level up much more efficiently.
I mean try making a hero and getting a group. Most of the time not happening. So leveling is mostly run here kill this run back or run somewhere.....
Having speed pots that work only in your own realm would really help classes that don't get groups and anyone for that matter level up much more efficiently.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 2:49 AM
by
Frieza
imo if the choice is speed buff and pots/ regen, or nothing. Im voting nothing. I play a speed char so it pulls in the gap a bit by giving everyone speed while theyre exping/ rvring, which isnt fair because i sometimes cant solo a oj/red but someone else can and move at the same pace?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:08 PM
by
Milchschnidde
You allready have perma sprint with endu 3 pots tireless and long wind1, its perma speedboost for every char. LIKE ALLWAYAS ppl. are never satisfied enough, i bet if they add speed 1 pots just after a few day ppl. Will start complain its not enough and they would like to have speed 2 pots... etc
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:25 PM
by
Amp_Phetamine
Milchschnidde wrote: ↑Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:08 PMYou allready have perma sprint with endu 3 pots tireless and long wind1, its perma speedboost for every char. LIKE ALLWAYAS ppl. are never satisfied enough, i bet if they add speed 1 pots just after a few day ppl. Will start complain its not enough and they would like to have speed 2 pots... etc
Yup, this is a great example of 'give an inch, they'll take a mile'.
No reason to add anything further. Especially with all of the teleport options available.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:51 PM
by
cere2
Yeah because giving speed of the hunt that cant be used in frontier zones is game-breaking.
What about players that are trying to level from 1-30. They have no money to buy potions for endo, dont have realm points for "endless" endo/sprint.
You seriously think putting in-realm only speed pots would not be a QOL improvement?
I can see the issues with having it in RVR zones, but not for PvE.
What about players that are trying to level from 1-30. They have no money to buy potions for endo, dont have realm points for "endless" endo/sprint.
You seriously think putting in-realm only speed pots would not be a QOL improvement?
I can see the issues with having it in RVR zones, but not for PvE.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 5:54 PM
by
Amp_Phetamine
cere2 wrote: ↑Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:51 PMYeah because giving speed of the hunt that cant be used in frontier zones is game-breaking.
What about players that are trying to level from 1-30. They have no money to buy potions for endo, dont have realm points for "endless" endo/sprint.
You seriously think putting in-realm only speed pots would not be a QOL improvement?
I can see the issues with having it in RVR zones, but not for PvE.
Because there is a hastner at nearly every teleporter that they'd use while leveling?
I pretty much solo'd from level 1-50 (did join a group for 47-48) on a Mercenary.
With the plethora of teleporters, hastner NPC's and the return to bind jewel, "getting" to locations was laughably easy. Plus horse tickets are flipping free.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:18 PM
by
cere2
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑Thu 14 Mar 2019 5:54 PMcere2 wrote: ↑Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:51 PMYeah because giving speed of the hunt that cant be used in frontier zones is game-breaking.
What about players that are trying to level from 1-30. They have no money to buy potions for endo, dont have realm points for "endless" endo/sprint.
You seriously think putting in-realm only speed pots would not be a QOL improvement?
I can see the issues with having it in RVR zones, but not for PvE.
Because there is a hastner at nearly every teleporter that they'd use while leveling?
I pretty much solo'd from level 1-50 (did join a group for 47-48) on a Mercenary.
With the plethora of teleporters, hastner NPC's and the return to bind jewel, "getting" to locations was laughably easy. Plus horse tickets are flipping free.
Hastner at nearly evety teleporter, great. And when I'm out in a zone that pretty much a full map length away from a porter or horse merch, I am running at standard move speed trying to get to either a horse to get a "free" ticket to a town that "may" have a porter....I mean, why may I ask Amp are you against Speed of hunts for players in their own realm? What would bother you about it?
Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:41 PM
by
Amp_Phetamine
cere2 wrote: ↑Thu 14 Mar 2019 6:18 PMAmp_Phetamine wrote: ↑Thu 14 Mar 2019 5:54 PMcere2 wrote: ↑Thu 14 Mar 2019 4:51 PMYeah because giving speed of the hunt that cant be used in frontier zones is game-breaking.
What about players that are trying to level from 1-30. They have no money to buy potions for endo, dont have realm points for "endless" endo/sprint.
You seriously think putting in-realm only speed pots would not be a QOL improvement?
I can see the issues with having it in RVR zones, but not for PvE.
Because there is a hastner at nearly every teleporter that they'd use while leveling?
I pretty much solo'd from level 1-50 (did join a group for 47-48) on a Mercenary.
With the plethora of teleporters, hastner NPC's and the return to bind jewel, "getting" to locations was laughably easy. Plus horse tickets are flipping free.
Hastner at nearly evety teleporter, great. And when I'm out in a zone that pretty much a full map length away from a porter or horse merch, I am running at standard move speed trying to get to either a horse to get a "free" ticket to a town that "may" have a porter....I mean, why may I ask Amp are you against Speed of hunts for players in their own realm? What would bother you about it?
I'm only against it in the sense of preventing the door from opening in the first place. The Dev's have already made a few nice changes compared to the OG patch level that makes traveling far simpler.
I'm fearful that if speed of the realm (SOTR) tokens/charges are introduced for PvE use exclusively, that's going to slowly make it's way into the FZ as well.
I could very well be wrong and the Dev's can decide that SOTR is perfectly fine in PvE, I just don't believe it's necessary.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 12:47 AM
by
Zirc
Most people are just arguing that it isn't fair to speed classes if everyone gets access to a speed pot.
That's already happening with self-buffing classes and buff pots
There are 2 options to make it truly fair:
1. Remove buff pots
2. Add low level speed pots
That's already happening with self-buffing classes and buff pots
There are 2 options to make it truly fair:
1. Remove buff pots
2. Add low level speed pots
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:45 AM
by
Patron
Rubbish,
Potbuff are weak. Buffs are not
Stop talking unreflected stuff u dont have any lil clue.
Staff said no speed pots, so better do rvr and not trashbla our beloved forum.
There are speeders in keeps your realm own and with 150% + permaspeed u can reach everything in 10 minutes.
And remove buffpots will destroy alchimists.
You better doing something else...
Im tired to read idiotic statements. Not saying your a idiot, maybe just a noob dunno
Potbuff are weak. Buffs are not
Stop talking unreflected stuff u dont have any lil clue.
Staff said no speed pots, so better do rvr and not trashbla our beloved forum.
There are speeders in keeps your realm own and with 150% + permaspeed u can reach everything in 10 minutes.
And remove buffpots will destroy alchimists.
You better doing something else...
Im tired to read idiotic statements. Not saying your a idiot, maybe just a noob dunno
Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:07 PM
by
Blitze
@Patron
That was not a very nice message to read...
Patron, could you explain again the difference between giving everyone acces to dex/qui buffpots at 39delve which friars need to spec 18 enhance for 36delve... and giving everyone Speedpots at (let’s say) 159 delve which bards need to spec 13 nurture for.
To lay my cards on the table, i am of the opinion that all buffpots should be removed in all forms, as they negatively affect hybrids which are the lowest RP earning subset of Phoenix players. Then after that they can deal with any class balance issues, as of now, we are in a dubious area of bandaids on top of bandaids.
That was not a very nice message to read...
Patron, could you explain again the difference between giving everyone acces to dex/qui buffpots at 39delve which friars need to spec 18 enhance for 36delve... and giving everyone Speedpots at (let’s say) 159 delve which bards need to spec 13 nurture for.
To lay my cards on the table, i am of the opinion that all buffpots should be removed in all forms, as they negatively affect hybrids which are the lowest RP earning subset of Phoenix players. Then after that they can deal with any class balance issues, as of now, we are in a dubious area of bandaids on top of bandaids.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:44 PM
by
Zirc
Patron wrote: ↑Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:45 AMRubbish,
Potbuff are weak. Buffs are not
Stop talking unreflected stuff u dont have any lil clue.
Staff said no speed pots, so better do rvr and not trashbla our beloved forum.
There are speeders in keeps your realm own and with 150% + permaspeed u can reach everything in 10 minutes.
And remove buffpots will destroy alchimists.
You better doing something else...
Im tired to read idiotic statements. Not saying your a idiot, maybe just a noob dunno
I'll ignore the harsh words and assume you had a bad day or something. I've played skald and friar to rr4+ here. I know what I'm talking about just as much as you do.
@Blitze said it well. Rangers and hunters need to spec to 30 path/beastcraft to get 1 dex/qui buff equivalent to a potion. Looking at rangers specifically, their entire pathfinding spec is LESS VALUABLE because buff pots exist. They could either make a serious spec point investment taking path up to 30+ OR they could spend a trivial amount of gold. The class was designed around having self-buffs as a unique feature that gave them their own style. Scouts, to compare, have shield spec to make them unique. The buff pots have removed that unique aspect from rangers. Yes, that means they can spend the spec points elsewhere, but their class wasn't designed with that in mind.
We can see that buff pots do remove some identity and value from classes that self-buff. Now I know that many people wouldn't want buff pots removed. That's understandable. Any class that doesn't have self-buffs would suffer from them being removed. I don't want that. The devs won't do that. They know people want buff pots.
But there hasn't been a single valid claim for why any form of speed pot exists. Here's my proposal:
-Speed Potion, a level 30 consumable like every other buff pot. Gives the user 135% speed for 10 minutes. Breaks in combat (like any other speed). Reuse timer is 60 seconds. Can't use in combat.
-A level 30 consumable at 135% ensures that ANY CLASS that has access to speed will have a BETTER speed by the time someone can use this. (example: sorcs will get 139% speed at level 26). Any class with speed won't have issues catching these people at level 50. Even people on speed of the realm could catch up/outrun this.
-Further, the 60 second reuse and no-combat use will also ensure that it can't be cheesed by activating it many times mid-fight.
This would help with the imbalance of other pots and give everyone access to some QOL that wouldn't shake the meta. It would be good for alchemists and provide a needed gold-sink.
Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:42 PM
by
cere2
Zirc wrote: ↑Fri 15 Mar 2019 5:44 PMPatron wrote: ↑Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:45 AMRubbish,
Potbuff are weak. Buffs are not
Stop talking unreflected stuff u dont have any lil clue.
Staff said no speed pots, so better do rvr and not trashbla our beloved forum.
There are speeders in keeps your realm own and with 150% + permaspeed u can reach everything in 10 minutes.
And remove buffpots will destroy alchimists.
You better doing something else...
Im tired to read idiotic statements. Not saying your a idiot, maybe just a noob dunno
I'll ignore the harsh words and assume you had a bad day or something. I've played skald and friar to rr4+ here. I know what I'm talking about just as much as you do.
@Blitze said it well. Rangers and hunters need to spec to 30 path/beastcraft to get 1 dex/qui buff equivalent to a potion. Looking at rangers specifically, their entire pathfinding spec is LESS VALUABLE because buff pots exist. They could either make a serious spec point investment taking path up to 30+ OR they could spend a trivial amount of gold. The class was designed around having self-buffs as a unique feature that gave them their own style. Scouts, to compare, have shield spec to make them unique. The buff pots have removed that unique aspect from rangers. Yes, that means they can spend the spec points elsewhere, but their class wasn't designed with that in mind.
We can see that buff pots do remove some identity and value from classes that self-buff. Now I know that many people wouldn't want buff pots removed. That's understandable. Any class that doesn't have self-buffs would suffer from them being removed. I don't want that. The devs won't do that. They know people want buff pots.
But there hasn't been a single valid claim for why any form of speed pot exists. Here's my proposal:
-Speed Potion, a level 30 consumable like every other buff pot. Gives the user 135% speed for 10 minutes. Breaks in combat (like any other speed). Reuse timer is 60 seconds. Can't use in combat.
-A level 30 consumable at 135% ensures that ANY CLASS that has access to speed will have a BETTER speed by the time someone can use this. (example: sorcs will get 139% speed at level 26). Any class with speed won't have issues catching these people at level 50. Even people on speed of the realm could catch up/outrun this.
-Further, the 60 second reuse and no-combat use will also ensure that it can't be cheesed by activating it many times mid-fight.
This would help with the imbalance of other pots and give everyone access to some QOL that wouldn't shake the meta. It would be good for alchemists and provide a needed gold-sink.
I totally agree with "almost" everything here. Only thing I would say is that it should be a lvl 1 consumable. The intent is to help leveling toons get to and from where they need to roam for most kill tasks. My proposition is for it to be used in only home realm zones, not in rvr zones. I will add though that speed of the hunt even on live never allowed me to escape any 8 man that was going to chase me down anyhow. It did sometimes allow me to get to a milegate or tower at times if I was lucky enough to be close to one at the time. But 90% of the time, I was rolled over by speed 6 groups anyhow.
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