How to make the server as populated as possible.

Started 12 Jul 2018
by relvinian
in Tavern
If there is only one way to play and have fun then anyone who does not like that one way will not play.

Population is EVERYTHING in daoc.

In order to encourage maximum population you need:

1. Casual players.
2. Hardcore players.
3. solo players.
4. Group players.
5. players who like pve.
6. Players who like rvr.
7. players who like to craft.
8. expert players.
9 new players.
10. people who think like you and those who do not.
Thu 12 Jul 2018 12:35 PM by Pao
Not sure about the order but you miss the technical side.

Server needs to be stable and bug free.

Again, please make a long beta until all bugs are fixed.
We have the time some people waited almost three years for Uthgard, so we can have a year of beta testing.
Thu 12 Jul 2018 3:22 PM by Shadanwolf
1) FUN ..............has to be a driving factor ( we have seen alternative shards where this was not considered )
2) We need devs who don't churn class abilities/items, undoing months of player work to develop their character.Sure there can be "improvements" just not changes to freshen up the game and make it look like improvements are being made.
3) list game on Reddit and have some devs comment there.
4)Make crafting more FUN.(and not a masochistic endurance contest). Nothing wrong with having special ingredients in low level crafting (that have to be gathered) to make upgraded versions of the item.
5) regular emails to all registered players keeping them abreast of new developments.
6) Holiday events-------eventually
7) a strong BAN HAMMER for the exploiters and cheats who always try to cheat and exploit.
Thu 12 Jul 2018 3:56 PM by aso
1. Casual players.
daily rewards
2. Hardcore players.
3. solo players.
horses like on live
4. Group players.
5. players who like pve.
random items, with random proc value like in diablo. so its possible to get a weapon with totaly bad stats and a high proc dd value, or different weapon speed
6. Players who like rvr.
7. players who like to craft.
8. expert players.
9 new players.
10. people who think like you and those who do not.

11. smallman players
horses, smallman title, fast action
Thu 12 Jul 2018 4:26 PM by Pao
Shadanwolf wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018 3:22 PM
7) a strong BAN HAMMER for the exploiters and cheats who always try to cheat and exploit.


This. Also toxicity and being a dick should result in being banned.

Its annoying to play referee for a punch of nerds and low life wanna be esport gods of a 17 years old game but it ruins the fun of the majority.
Thu 12 Jul 2018 4:37 PM by Kralin
Shadanwolf wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018 3:22 PM
3) list game on Reddit and have some devs comment there.
5) regular emails to all registered players keeping them abreast of new developments.

I agree with these two a lot. It's fairly easy to send out communication from time to time. This will remind potential and active players that the server is still running being developed.
Thu 12 Jul 2018 4:41 PM by heardstheword
We don't need emails. There's an entire forum section called "Planned Changes" and there's also "Open Community Votes" and "Completed Community Votes"

We don't need them to force feed us information when it's all right there. Plus email spam is just obnoxious.
Thu 12 Jul 2018 4:44 PM by Kralin
An occasional (quarterly? bi-annually?) email can't hurt. It's meant to remind players that aren't playing here the server is still going. The email could simply say "we're still here; visit our website to see what's going on"
Thu 12 Jul 2018 5:16 PM by Bigga
i definitily agree with horses for solos/duos ...... otherwise the server will have following classes for solo duo:

skalds
minstrels
stealther

there will be no friars or armsmans or something else .... cuz they get asskicked and killed in sight of 8 mans
Thu 12 Jul 2018 5:36 PM by lourock
Horses are fine. Speed 5 horses like live are not.
Thu 12 Jul 2018 6:12 PM by Teufelshund
Bigga wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018 5:16 PM
i definitily agree with horses for solos/duos ...... otherwise the server will have following classes for solo duo:

skalds
minstrels
stealther

there will be no friars or armsmans or something else .... cuz they get asskicked and killed in sight of 8 mans

Skald best big hammer
Teuf yell at inconu and he fall dead from loud skald voice
skald best
Thu 12 Jul 2018 7:01 PM by relvinian
heardstheword wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018 4:41 PM
We don't need emails. There's an entire forum section called "Planned Changes" and there's also "Open Community Votes" and "Completed Community Votes"

We don't need them to force feed us information when it's all right there. Plus email spam is just obnoxious.

Emails work. This is why people do it. If the recipient, or urself for example, does not want to participate, unsub from the email.

The idea has merit
Thu 12 Jul 2018 7:02 PM by relvinian
Instead of horses put hasteners all over the place. make them last 20 minutes. Doesn't take away advantage of speed class but breaks in cbt. Helsp u get to action fast.

Horses they said pve may come.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:11 AM by aso
Bigga wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018 5:16 PM
i definitily agree with horses for solos/duos ...... otherwise the server will have following classes for solo duo:

skalds
minstrels
stealther

there will be no friars or armsmans or something else .... cuz they get asskicked and killed in sight of 8 mans

its true, i play smallman / solo since i play daoc
if you just look how many solo vids are available on youtube (live servers) because of horse 5 mounts

that will never happen here if you DIE ON SIGHT against 8mans

because everyone who dont got speed5 will DIE ON SIGHT, one of the reasons why on uthgard solo smallman game was non existent.

ppl who cry against this, are just 8man players who dont want that smallman / solos can escape

i cant play always group or with others, sometimes i got 30min time and i want to just make a quick run, that would not be possible without speed5 horses
Fri 13 Jul 2018 11:20 AM by Pao
Thats a good point.

Whats about having a timer of 3mins downtime after a fight? There still have to be benefit of being a speed class.

or have porters to every owned keep to keep the downtime low.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 2:17 PM by relvinian
You have to encourage the "other" play style.

Uthgard didn't. Basically there it is 8 man and it is group optimized aoe xp which is the best. Pygmies comes to mind.

I went from 41 to 42 in 45 minutes at pygmies in a great guild group. Solo from 41 to 41 was something like a week.

If you want solo pvp then you need:

1. Full rps while dead. It helps in so many ways because if 2 solos are fighting and are almost dead and an 8 man wipes them, they get the rps for the dmg they did to each other.
2. Speed. Somehow, some way for people to get across that great big frontier without it becoming pointless of taking too long.

Also for solo pve and xp?
1. It has to be fast enough and competitive enough with group pve that players feel like they are making progress.
2. Whatever is done here to speed up solo pve and xp, has to be quite a bit compared to what im seeing by soloing right now.


BTW, im not trying to xp by what is best right now, xp is something I'm testing, And my test right now indicates the rate is to slow for solo xp and in my opinion the population will suffer in the long run unless there is a dramatic change. Same thing with, I'm sure bg rvr and solo rvr-- you can ignore it, but in the long run if you don't encourage and let it thrive, you lose those players and that-- in the long run hurts population.

This is beta. Things I'm writing are my observations as beta tester.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 6:10 PM by Tyton
relvinian wrote:
Fri 13 Jul 2018 2:17 PM
You have to encourage the "other" play style.

Uthgard didn't. Basically there it is 8 man and it is group optimized aoe xp which is the best. Pygmies comes to mind.


Group play should always be the best/fastest way to xp, rvr, etc. But you're right, you have to encourage all play styles. Uth didn't and look what happened. I don't think history will repeat itself - Phoenix staff is smarter than that.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 7:05 PM by Mrpickles
relvinian wrote:
Fri 13 Jul 2018 2:17 PM
You have to encourage the "other" play style.

Uthgard didn't. Basically there it is 8 man and it is group optimized aoe xp which is the best. Pygmies comes to mind.

I went from 41 to 42 in 45 minutes at pygmies in a great guild group. Solo from 41 to 41 was something like a week.

If you want solo pvp then you need:

1. Full rps while dead. It helps in so many ways because if 2 solos are fighting and are almost dead and an 8 man wipes them, they get the rps for the dmg they did to each other.
2. Speed. Somehow, some way for people to get across that great big frontier without it becoming pointless of taking too long.

Also for solo pve and xp?
1. It has to be fast enough and competitive enough with group pve that players feel like they are making progress.
2. Whatever is done here to speed up solo pve and xp, has to be quite a bit compared to what im seeing by soloing right now.


BTW, im not trying to xp by what is best right now, xp is something I'm testing, And my test right now indicates the rate is to slow for solo xp and in my opinion the population will suffer in the long run unless there is a dramatic change. Same thing with, I'm sure bg rvr and solo rvr-- you can ignore it, but in the long run if you don't encourage and let it thrive, you lose those players and that-- in the long run hurts population.

This is beta. Things I'm writing are my observations as beta tester.

Solo tokens are now a thing. Should help address that issue a little .
Fri 13 Jul 2018 8:00 PM by Brokenstring
I hate mounts. HATE them with a passion. Please don't add those useless resource hogs into the game.

I do agree that solos need a more permanent speed solution though. I think something like speed potions could be a happy compromise. Make them cheap to make, and stack by 20 or something and last 30 minutes. Could make them go realm speed, or slightly faster like 154% (like the second fastest class speed). Just an idea.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 8:41 PM by aso
Brokenstring wrote:
Fri 13 Jul 2018 8:00 PM
I hate mounts. HATE them with a passion. Please don't add those useless resource hogs into the game.

I do agree that solos need a more permanent speed solution though. I think something like speed potions could be a happy compromise. Make them cheap to make, and stack by 20 or something and last 30 minutes. Could make them go realm speed, or slightly faster like 154% (like the second fastest class speed). Just an idea.

you mean so that 8mans still kill solo smallmans on sight?
Fri 13 Jul 2018 9:56 PM by lourock
Horses don’t stop 8 mans from rolling solos on live stop exaggerating. All they do is make speed classes trivial. I played live for many years solo wo speed 6 horses. The speed gems offered from bounty points that gave 170 speed and the old horses were perfectly adequate for soloing. Soloing on visies should never be easy.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:00 PM by Aincrad
I'm fine with allowing horses in PvE, but definitely not in RvR.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:07 PM by Tyton
No mount plz. :>
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:12 PM by aso
all i see here is the pov from 8man players.

if you realy playd solo and smallman, and say that speed potions are enogh, you lie PERIOD

if you think solos will go out and rolled by 8mans again and again and again, you will see what happens.

no speed horses will close lot of players out from this server

what do you prefare, a guy with horse in rvr or a guy who dont log in
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:20 PM by lourock
Show me your solo kills from live. I highly doubt you are the soloer you claim to be. I’m not an 8 man player what so ever. No speed 6 horses they ruin the game go play live if you want candy land.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:52 PM by Tyton
No mounts is definitely not grounds for not playing lol. Come on now. If it is for a select few then that's unfortunate. This server is light years beyond the QoL of Uthgard and people still want more: Buff bot, mount, Cata classes. There's gotta be a line drawn somewhere.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 11:05 PM by Aincrad
I am not an 8man player and never have been. I usually just solo or small man with my 3 bros. I still do not want mounts in RvR though
Fri 13 Jul 2018 11:36 PM by aso
lourock wrote:
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:20 PM
Show me your solo kills from live. I highly doubt you are the soloer you claim to be. I’m not an 8 man player what so ever. No speed 6 horses they ruin the game go play live if you want candy land.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyYdM5UV-3U

here

show me your solo exp?

if you guys are realy solo players, and its a advantage to got speed 5 horses, why you dont want it? is it maybe because you like to get killed from 8mans? like to get outnumbered without any single chance?
Fri 13 Jul 2018 11:50 PM by lourock
aso wrote:
Fri 13 Jul 2018 11:36 PM
lourock wrote:
Fri 13 Jul 2018 10:20 PM
Show me your solo kills from live. I highly doubt you are the soloer you claim to be. I’m not an 8 man player what so ever. No speed 6 horses they ruin the game go play live if you want candy land.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyYdM5UV-3U

here

show me your solo exp?

if you guys are realy solo players, and its a advantage to got speed 5 horses, why you dont want it? is it maybe because you like to get killed from 8mans? like to get outnumbered without any single chance?

Says your rr6 skald has 152 total solo kills ROFL. Hardly a soloer bro. One e peen vid means nothing . Also you main a skald why would you even care about speed 6 horses here. There already is a server that caters to your type it’s called daoc live it even has solo towns where people can /bow and circle jerk one another. I can tell you right now you’re no soloer.
Fri 13 Jul 2018 11:55 PM by aso
i got 4 skalds rr10+
sold 3 of them.

just dont talk, and show me what you got
everyone can talk
Sat 14 Jul 2018 7:26 PM by Budikah
lourock wrote:
Fri 13 Jul 2018 9:56 PM
Horses don’t stop 8 mans from rolling solos on live stop exaggerating. All they do is make speed classes trivial. I played live for many years solo wo speed 6 horses. The speed gems offered from bounty points that gave 170 speed and the old horses were perfectly adequate for soloing. Soloing on visies should never be easy.

They don't stop them entirely - no. If they've got a Bard to Amensia you then you are generally screwed.

So what it does is put you on equal footing - it makes you no longer a free meal, because they'll at least have to engage in the chase which isn't guaranteed to be a free win.

I don't particularly have an answer or any great suggestions. Horses do indeed trivialize the speed classes that don't have max speed, but it also ensures that people who run a group without a Speed6 class aren't left as free RPs to be picked off at the leisure of others.

Personally I've started to find it frustrating that you need to have one of these speed classes - but it is what it is, and it's been part of DAoC for quite awhile. It's mainly a personal gripe because in my duo, neither of us particularly wants to play a Bard/Skald/Minstrel but without, you risk being a speed bump and a snack.
Sat 14 Jul 2018 10:48 PM by lourock
@aso bro you have a skald with 150 solo kills. Look up my chimp on post count and you will see I have over 2000 solo kills on live and I am a casual player. I’m not the one doing the talking here...

Fact is QOL is and always has been a slippery slope with daoc player base. Games like WOW have spoiled and ruined this generation of mmo gamers for ever. Live has traveled down this Slippery slope already. BS ruined that server with all the dumb ass changes like speed 6 horses solo dueling zones etc. catering to cry babies.

I hated uthgard but not cause no qol. The community was terrible they hated stealthers and small mans. It was all about e peen 8 v 8. This server is a happy medium between live and Uth atm. Let’s keep it that way imho.
Sat 14 Jul 2018 11:25 PM by Moondragon
I worked on Wall Street and a partner of mine covered poker companies (in London) and it applies to DAOC server very well. He said you have sharks that eat fish, and eventually the fish get frustrated enough and leave, so you have to have a business plan to continually attract fish to feed the sharks. The sharks were the expert players, and the fish were the NooBs/casual poker players. The exact same concept applies to DAOC. We have some expert DAOC players, and they will dominate and eventually run off the casuals. So you better have a plan that attracts casuals, because otherwise the server won't last, because if there aren't enough fish, even the sharks leave.

You really need a system where casual players tell their friends and encourage them to play, thereby bringing in more fish and offsetting the fish that get tired of being eaten by sharks. It's the only sustainable method. I try to think about suggestions to improve the server more in the eyes of "will it convince casuals to tell their friends to join and play?" rather than "will this help make it more hard core so that the expert players have more to brag about". Make sure you cater to the former, not the later, because the expert players can fight each other and devour enough fish to satisfy their needs, they might complain but they still log in. The casuals are where it's at.
Sun 15 Jul 2018 12:01 AM by relvinian
Moondragon wrote:
Sat 14 Jul 2018 11:25 PM
I worked on Wall Street and a partner of mine covered poker companies (in London) and it applies to DAOC server very well. He said you have sharks that eat fish, and eventually the fish get frustrated enough and leave, so you have to have a business plan to continually attract fish to feed the sharks. The sharks were the expert players, and the fish were the NooBs/casual poker players. The exact same concept applies to DAOC. We have some expert DAOC players, and they will dominate and eventually run off the casuals. So you better have a plan that attracts casuals, because otherwise the server won't last, because if there aren't enough fish, even the sharks leave.

You really need a system where casual players tell their friends and encourage them to play, thereby bringing in more fish and offsetting the fish that get tired of being eaten by sharks. It's the only sustainable method. I try to think about suggestions to improve the server more in the eyes of "will it convince casuals to tell their friends to join and play?" rather than "will this help make it more hard core so that the expert players have more to brag about". Make sure you cater to the former, not the later, because the expert players can fight each other and devour enough fish to satisfy their needs, they might complain but they still log in. The casuals are where it's at.

I wish I could quote this a million times or have the devs print it out and post it on their fridges.

Everything this person wrote is spot on.
Sun 15 Jul 2018 8:42 AM by aso
its very simple

if i got time, 1hour for example

and im not able to log in and play my favorite class in rvr. the server will not be populated as it could be.

horses bringe more players in then out, i rly dont see why someone should say, ah they got horses, i cant rvr now and i dont log in
Sun 15 Jul 2018 11:02 AM by Tyton
aso wrote:
Sun 15 Jul 2018 8:42 AM
its very simple

if i got time, 1hour for example

and im not able to log in and play my favorite class in rvr. the server will not be populated as it could be.

horses bringe more players in then out, i rly dont see why someone should say, ah they got horses, i cant rvr now and i dont log in

Honestly that's why BGs are important. So that if you only have lets say an hour to fight, log into a BG toon (quick/easy action). This is not a 1v1 type game primarily anyway (though I've had a few 1v1s here already).

I'm not sure what the solution to the mounts thing is, though I'm against it if I had to choose for several reasons. One being that IIRC any class (with a mount) can chase you down. This simply shouldn't be. Kiting is an important part of some classes/builds. Anyway, XP is easy here you can have a multitude of options rather quickly. Traversing the map (esp PvE) isn't nearly as difficult with all hasteners and being able to spec LW/Tireless for perma, too. If you're running 8 man or small man, it should pay to have a speed class/support, just like it pays to have a healer, dps, etc. Part of the game.
Sun 15 Jul 2018 12:00 PM by aso
Tyton wrote: Honestly that's why BGs are important. So that if you only have lets say an hour to fight, log into a BG toon (quick/easy action). This is not a 1v1 type game primarily anyway (though I've had a few 1v1s here already).

why i should seperate my self from others while i play bg instead of rvr?

Tyton wrote: If you're running 8 man or small man, it should pay to have a speed class/support, just like it pays to have a healer, dps, etc. Part of the game.
you think a horse replaces a speed class?
you cant jump on horse in fight
you need to stay to call the horse
its way different then with a speed class in group

[/quote]
lourock wrote:
Sat 14 Jul 2018 10:48 PM
@aso bro you have a skald with 150 solo kills. Look up my chimp on post count and you will see I have over 2000 solo kills on live and I am a casual player.

you compare all your chars together with one char of me, clap
and you didnt use horses with your visible solo on live?
Sun 15 Jul 2018 1:04 PM by Tyton
Aso, take it easy brother. I wasn't implying you should separate yourself - I was just pointing out the importance of BGs for some people. I say "you" as a hypothetical (i.e. any player who only has a few minutes to log in and crack skulls). As I said I don't know what the solution is for what you seek, but I will say this game wasn't really built for 1v1 action - at least back in SI days. Doesn't mean it won't happen or that you can't/shouldn't. Personally I just don't think mounts is the answer - wish I had a better solution for you.

And plz show me where I said I think horses replace a speed class. I know it's not the same exact thing. I didn't spend too much time in, as someone said before, "Candyland" DAoC so I'm no mount expert.
Sun 15 Jul 2018 2:13 PM by Saosin
I worked on Wall Street and a partner of mine covered poker companies (in London) and it applies to DAOC server very well. He said you have sharks that eat fish, and eventually the fish get frustrated enough and leave, so you have to have a business plan to continually attract fish to feed the sharks. The sharks were the expert players, and the fish were the NooBs/casual poker players. The exact same concept applies to DAOC. We have some expert DAOC players, and they will dominate and eventually run off the casuals. So you better have a plan that attracts casuals, because otherwise the server won't last, because if there aren't enough fish, even the sharks leave.

You really need a system where casual players tell their friends and encourage them to play, thereby bringing in more fish and offsetting the fish that get tired of being eaten by sharks. It's the only sustainable method. I try to think about suggestions to improve the server more in the eyes of "will it convince casuals to tell their friends to join and play?" rather than "will this help make it more hard core so that the expert players have more to brag about". Make sure you cater to the former, not the later, because the expert players can fight each other and devour enough fish to satisfy their needs, they might complain but they still log in. The casuals are where it's at.

------------>

the best for casual and low-time people, NEW ra, s and port points in beno, dc and bledmer and solo rvr task
Sun 15 Jul 2018 2:43 PM by Isavyr
I think you're spot-on Moondragon.

I'm having difficult time coming up with ideas on how to do that within DAoC's classic frame-work, particularly with regards to RvR. In this situation, often the casuals lose completely, and the sharks get everything. There is no reward for participation, only winning. In this type of unforgiving warfare, elitism triumphs. This relationship makes it difficult to sustain the fish pool.
Sun 15 Jul 2018 4:39 PM by aso
one group of players for sure hurts the population
the ppl who say they just want fair fights and play ONLY 8man and pull of when you add.

in same time they kill solo / smallmans, chase them till death (in this case it doesnt mater if its fair)

this players should be punished
Sun 15 Jul 2018 9:00 PM by Magesty
I almost exclusively play solo/small man, and have since SI. My friends and I have struggled to play the classes we all want to because you have to have speed to function. Throughout the recent free shard iterations someone has always had to take the hit and play speed or we have had to roll stealthers.

Here is the reality as I see it: OF is garbage. Simple as that. As long as the OF map is used the same problems will arise over and over again. It forces players to go through the same choke points and has vast, open areas with nowhere to hide. It is poorly designed and largely fails to accommodate play styles outside of 8v8 and zerging. NF had its faults but it was exceptionally well designed (with original bridges) from the standpoint of a small man/solo player. As an alb for example you could go to DC and use the bridges/water to avoid most larger groups. Every class could be played in a small man as hiding was actually an option for survival. We had a lot of success on Lamorak with an arms/Merc/friar trio because there were places for us to hide when needed. Our options were more than “be forced through chokepoint with wide open area on both sides” or “go to a place where there might not be anyone for hours”. Of course there were still 8 mans that would comb bridges and water thoroughly and ferret most people out, but most of them would just pass by on their way to bigger and better things.

Adding horses isn’t a great idea. Like buff potions it indirectly weakens certain classes and is just a clumsy patch on poor existing design. It also alters fundamental combat mechanics with kiting/dots/combat timers.

I know the vast majority of people playing here are doing so for OF, but it really is terribly designed from a layout and RA perspective (sorry nostalgia). We will be running a Minstrel at all times and I expect trying to solo as a visible without speed will be awful as it always is. That being said it is non-buffbot/non-toa daoc with progressive, competent devs and that’s good enough for me.
Mon 16 Jul 2018 8:45 AM by Danaeh
Magesty wrote:
Sun 15 Jul 2018 9:00 PM
I almost exclusively play solo/small man, and have since SI. My friends and I have struggled to play the classes we all want to because you have to have speed to function. Throughout the recent free shard iterations someone has always had to take the hit and play speed or we have had to roll stealthers.

Here is the reality as I see it: OF is garbage. Simple as that. As long as the OF map is used the same problems will arise over and over again. It forces players to go through the same choke points and has vast, open areas with nowhere to hide. It is poorly designed and largely fails to accommodate play styles outside of 8v8 and zerging. NF had its faults but it was exceptionally well designed (with original bridges) from the standpoint of a small man/solo player. As an alb for example you could go to DC and use the bridges/water to avoid most larger groups. Every class could be played in a small man as hiding was actually an option for survival. We had a lot of success on Lamorak with an arms/Merc/friar trio because there were places for us to hide when needed. Our options were more than “be forced through chokepoint with wide open area on both sides” or “go to a place where there might not be anyone for hours”. Of course there were still 8 mans that would comb bridges and water thoroughly and ferret most people out, but most of them would just pass by on their way to bigger and better things.

Adding horses isn’t a great idea. Like buff potions it indirectly weakens certain classes and is just a clumsy patch on poor existing design. It also alters fundamental combat mechanics with kiting/dots/combat timers.

I know the vast majority of people playing here are doing so for OF, but it really is terribly designed from a layout and RA perspective (sorry nostalgia). We will be running a Minstrel at all times and I expect trying to solo as a visible without speed will be awful as it always is. That being said it is non-buffbot/non-toa daoc with progressive, competent devs and that’s good enough for me.

I agree on this but It seems like nobody likes NF
Mon 16 Jul 2018 11:08 AM by Tyton
I personally like both OF and NF (f*&$ me right?). But as OF is already implemented and being worked on, I'm not sure they'd make such a drastic change at this stage.
Mon 16 Jul 2018 12:05 PM by Magesty
Tyton wrote:
Mon 16 Jul 2018 11:08 AM
I personally like both OF and NF (f*&$ me right?). But as OF is already implemented and being worked on, I'm not sure they'd make such a drastic change at this stage.

They won’t and I don’t think anyone expects them to.
Mon 16 Jul 2018 5:07 PM by aso
Magesty wrote:
Sun 15 Jul 2018 9:00 PM
Adding horses isn’t a great idea. Like buff potions it indirectly weakens certain classes and is just a clumsy patch on poor existing design. It also alters fundamental combat mechanics with kiting/dots/combat timers.

thats exactly what uth did, and we all know what happened
Mon 16 Jul 2018 5:21 PM by Tyton
aso wrote:
Mon 16 Jul 2018 5:07 PM
Magesty wrote:
Sun 15 Jul 2018 9:00 PM
Adding horses isn’t a great idea. Like buff potions it indirectly weakens certain classes and is just a clumsy patch on poor existing design. It also alters fundamental combat mechanics with kiting/dots/combat timers.

thats exactly what uth did, and we all know what happened

Not having mounts is not why Uthgard failed. There were much bigger things (slow XP, rude staff, no teleporters, etc) that contributed to the overwhelming majority of people who chose to stop playing there. Honestly all the reasons I stopped my Uth account have already been solved here (at Phoenix). That doesn't mean Phoenix can't continue to evolve, but the subject of not having mounts isn't going to bring down the server IMO.
Mon 16 Jul 2018 6:06 PM by Patron
Iz should be focus to make the rvr as fluid as possible. So I hope we get horseroutes in rvr.
Why should a Solo miss some buffs? Its wrong in my opinion that good charge buff pots effect buff classes. Who want to pay for buffs if you can have a mate who doing it for free.
And a solo would possible never decline a invite from a buffer class.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 11:21 AM by Galahad
OF is here to stay, it's a core "feature" of our server setting.

RvR Horses are not in the cards for the time being; they might be introduced for non-RvR use though (on-going discussion).

In general, we hope that our RvR "tweaks" (e.g. keep system revamp and some other stuff yet to be announced) will create a fun experience and soften up the traditional mindsets of how RvR should be played. A focus on more grouping is implied here.

That doesn't mean that other play styles, up to and including solo play, aren't viable, but choices should still matter - and if someone is intend on playing solo, then that may also mean sacrificing something (be it better XP, or the convenience of speedy travel).
Tue 17 Jul 2018 11:47 AM by aso
Galahad wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 11:21 AM
RvR Horses are not in the cards for the time being; they might be introduced for non-RvR use though (on-going discussion).

In general, we hope that our RvR "tweaks" (e.g. keep system revamp and some other stuff yet to be announced) will create a fun experience and soften up the traditional mindsets of how RvR should be played. A focus on more grouping is implied here.

That doesn't mean that other play styles, up to and including solo play, aren't viable, but choices should still matter - and if someone is intend on playing solo, then that may also mean sacrificing something (be it better XP, or the convenience of speedy travel).

you guys, i mean that for real, did a veryyy god job.

this point makes me sad because only-8man is not a option for the most
soloplayers
smallmanplayers

its not only because of ppl dont like it, its more for time reasons, rl and so.

Galahad wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 11:21 AM
and if someone is intend on playing solo, then that may also mean sacrificing something (be it better XP, or the convenience of speedy travel).
i dont speak about pve, its totaly ok to got a disadvantage if you dont group, but for rvr, sadly speed is a disadvantage that close you out of rvr (if you dont like to get killed by 8mans on sight)

its a tiny disadvantage that brings you in a bigger one (outnumbered on sight)

thats why i decided now to play stealther (minst infi) and rarely think we will find some visible smallman/solos to fight except stealthers.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 2:33 PM by relvinian
So how can we increase solo rvr?


1. Porters to get to action faster.
2. Horse routes in frontier.
3. 20 minute hasteners.
4. Full rps when dead-- 2 solos fight, both about dead, 8 man rolls them both. They get rps for the dmg they did to each other.
5. No rps for greys-- helps because you can go solo when ur lvl 20 in frontier, and 50s get no rps for u.
6. Missions for rvr.
7. Keep take rps.
8. Add your suggestions here.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 5:24 PM by lourock
relvinian wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 2:33 PM
So how can we increase solo rvr?


1. Porters to get to action faster.
2. Horse routes in frontier.
3. 20 minute hasteners.
4. Full rps when dead-- 2 solos fight, both about dead, 8 man rolls them both. They get rps for the dmg they did to each other.
5. No rps for greys-- helps because you can go solo when ur lvl 20 in frontier, and 50s get no rps for u.
6. Missions for rvr.
7. Keep take rps.
8. Add your suggestions here.

Those are all reasonable suggestions. I really like no RP for grey , but bored stealthers will still gank to make action for themselves and grief though. I think solo RVR happens naturally on a healthy server as it did in live pre broadsword. The Zerg should always be the focus of the devs a healthy Zerg on each realm = a healthy server in daoc.
Tue 17 Jul 2018 10:17 PM by sebbo
RP´s for keep take doesnt lead to more RvR. It leads to circle-raiding of empty keeps. Happened on Uthgard v1, Genesis, Uthgard v2, will happen here.
No RP´s for greys is nice, but i wouldn´t care.
Full RP´s when dead is a no-go. If you cant kill the enemy, you don´t deserve anything. Only leads to yolo-actions.
Horse routes in FZ? Hahaha! Its not as if especially infis/sb´s/shades would just have to sit on a spot where they know that people on horses come through to PA them off the horse.
20 mins speed from hasteners? Just why?
Wed 18 Jul 2018 2:50 PM by Magesty
relvinian wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 2:33 PM
So how can we increase solo rvr?


1. Porters to get to action faster.
2. Horse routes in frontier.
3. 20 minute hasteners.
4. Full rps when dead-- 2 solos fight, both about dead, 8 man rolls them both. They get rps for the dmg they did to each other.
5. No rps for greys-- helps because you can go solo when ur lvl 20 in frontier, and 50s get no rps for u.
6. Missions for rvr.
7. Keep take rps.
8. Add your suggestions here.

1. I like this proposal as long as the speed at which people can get back in the action isn't so fast that it trivializes winning fights.

2. This is probably a good feature, but feels clunky. Unfortunately that is the case with most of the changes that have to be made to make OF work.

3. Sounds fine. QoL improvement for when RvR is slow

4. I think this is one of the most important changes. Nothing is worse than running with a duo/small man, finally finding a good fight after 30m of roaming around vast emptiness, getting focused down first, and watching your group mate(s) mop up the rest of the enemies. It is demoralizing and makes the fight feel fruitless even though you may have done/soaked a ton of damage. It is a mechanic that rewards cowardly play and discourages engaging fights for certain classes. I imagine in a zerg situation it makes being a front liner even worse since they are most likely to get focused down and aren't really serving a purpose if they don't engage. Not receiving RPs while dead is a mechanic I think can be categorized as "anti-fun" (much like long duration near sight). It is needlessly harsh and lowers the level of enjoyment across the board for those affected.

5. Easy change. No reason to have greys give RPs.

6. Personally I enjoy RvR tasks-- excluding the ones that have you kill monsters for RPs. No way these should be in the game, or if they are it should be capped at 4L0. I think PvP tasks are a satisfying bonus and can encourage you to seek out different enemies than you might normally fight. This is the type of change that has a relatively minimal effect on the overall game and adds enjoyment and an additional sense of accomplishment which is never a bad thing. I doubt it will encourage any style of play one way or the other though.

7. It looks like the new keep take system will be pretty good if it is well executed. While I'm not a zerger, I acknowledge that a healthy zerg is VITAL to the server's success. It is the most important thing. Period. Without active zergs the server population will die until it is just a few of the most dedicated 8 mans and some stealthers. As far as I can tell their new system should make keep takes a lengthier process and reward people for showing up and participating, which in turn will hopefully facilitate fights over keeps instead of just a PvE rotation. Our small man is even considering rolling ranged alts to zerg surf from time to time.

A healthy RvR ecosystem is one that has active zergs on all realms. This encourages casual/unskilled players to continue to play and roll new characters. They can participate, have fun, and advance their toon within the safety of numbers. Keeping these players interested is the most essential thing to a server's longevity. They don't have fun when they make PuGs and get reamed by skilled 8 mans. Nor do they stay interested when they try to solo and get bodied/cheesed by more skilled & well-equipped players. Even the most solitary and selfish of assassins benefits from zerglings attempting to solo or trying to get to the zerg.

In order to truly increase the overall quality of solo/small man play on Phoenix I think that the layout of OF has to be changed. Even adding additional structures to the map would make a huge difference. What you have right now is terrain that benefits the wolves and hares. Wide-open stretches separated by choke points you are forced to go though. You need speed or stealth to even really survive in this environment. The problem is DAoC was designed with a wide variety of fauna, and most of them aren't meant to survive in the open. They need structure to hide in and around to avoid being prey. They need to be able to avoid the popular paths the predators take since they have no way of escaping once seen.

Some people suggest adding insanely fast horses to the game. This is not a fix. This just makes all these other classes faster, but still slightly slower than the wolves and hares. It is inelegant, clumsy, and does away with the original design of the classes. It also alters fundamental game mechanics and balance. The proper way to do it is to create an environment where all classes can thrive, or at the very least survive for a little bit. This means taking your flat, empty field filled with wolves and adding rocks, trees, and, occasionally, alternate pathways to the watering hole.
Wed 18 Jul 2018 4:30 PM by relvinian
Magesty wrote:
Wed 18 Jul 2018 2:50 PM
relvinian wrote:
Tue 17 Jul 2018 2:33 PM
So how can we increase solo rvr?


1. Porters to get to action faster.
2. Horse routes in frontier.
3. 20 minute hasteners.
4. Full rps when dead-- 2 solos fight, both about dead, 8 man rolls them both. They get rps for the dmg they did to each other.
5. No rps for greys-- helps because you can go solo when ur lvl 20 in frontier, and 50s get no rps for u.
6. Missions for rvr.
7. Keep take rps.
8. Add your suggestions here.

1. I like this proposal as long as the speed at which people can get back in the action isn't so fast that it trivializes winning fights.

2. This is probably a good feature, but feels clunky. Unfortunately that is the case with most of the changes that have to be made to make OF work.

3. Sounds fine. QoL improvement for when RvR is slow

4. I think this is one of the most important changes. Nothing is worse than running with a duo/small man, finally finding a good fight after 30m of roaming around vast emptiness, getting focused down first, and watching your group mate(s) mop up the rest of the enemies. It is demoralizing and makes the fight feel fruitless even though you may have done/soaked a ton of damage. It is a mechanic that rewards cowardly play and discourages engaging fights for certain classes. I imagine in a zerg situation it makes being a front liner even worse since they are most likely to get focused down and aren't really serving a purpose if they don't engage. Not receiving RPs while dead is a mechanic I think can be categorized as "anti-fun" (much like long duration near sight). It is needlessly harsh and lowers the level of enjoyment across the board for those affected.

5. Easy change. No reason to have greys give RPs.

6. Personally I enjoy RvR tasks-- excluding the ones that have you kill monsters for RPs. No way these should be in the game, or if they are it should be capped at 4L0. I think PvP tasks are a satisfying bonus and can encourage you to seek out different enemies than you might normally fight. This is the type of change that has a relatively minimal effect on the overall game and adds enjoyment and an additional sense of accomplishment which is never a bad thing. I doubt it will encourage any style of play one way or the other though.

7. It looks like the new keep take system will be pretty good if it is well executed. While I'm not a zerger, I acknowledge that a healthy zerg is VITAL to the server's success. It is the most important thing. Period. Without active zergs the server population will die until it is just a few of the most dedicated 8 mans and some stealthers. As far as I can tell their new system should make keep takes a lengthier process and reward people for showing up and participating, which in turn will hopefully facilitate fights over keeps instead of just a PvE rotation. Our small man is even considering rolling ranged alts to zerg surf from time to time.

A healthy RvR ecosystem is one that has active zergs on all realms. This encourages casual/unskilled players to continue to play and roll new characters. They can participate, have fun, and advance their toon within the safety of numbers. Keeping these players interested is the most essential thing to a server's longevity. They don't have fun when they make PuGs and get reamed by skilled 8 mans. Nor do they stay interested when they try to solo and get bodied/cheesed by more skilled & well-equipped players. Even the most solitary and selfish of assassins benefits from zerglings attempting to solo or trying to get to the zerg.

In order to truly increase the overall quality of solo/small man play on Phoenix I think that the layout of OF has to be changed. Even adding additional structures to the map would make a huge difference. What you have right now is terrain that benefits the wolves and hares. Wide-open stretches separated by choke points you are forced to go though. You need speed or stealth to even really survive in this environment. The problem is DAoC was designed with a wide variety of fauna, and most of them aren't meant to survive in the open. They need structure to hide in and around to avoid being prey. They need to be able to avoid the popular paths the predators take since they have no way of escaping once seen.

Some people suggest adding insanely fast horses to the game. This is not a fix. This just makes all these other classes faster, but still slightly slower than the wolves and hares. It is inelegant, clumsy, and does away with the original design of the classes. It also alters fundamental game mechanics and balance. The proper way to do it is to create an environment where all classes can thrive, or at the very least survive for a little bit. This means taking your flat, empty field filled with wolves and adding rocks, trees, and, occasionally, alternate pathways to the watering hole.

Another well thought out post that should be printed in bullet points and placed on Devs fridges.

Would also like to add that bgs are an important part of rvr and possibly adding lions den or a higher lvl bg would be a good way to encourage players to level up their toons with rps.
Thu 19 Jul 2018 3:32 AM by Moondragon
Well, glad people liked my fish/shark example. I wish I could take credit for the analysis, but it stuck with me when I read it about poker players.

So, think about a player who is new to this game (hard to do, I know, but try) and then tell them about RvR and how you want them to come with you into the frontier to fight the bad guys. What would you tell them? Well, me personally I would talk about keeps, relics, and roaming for bad guys. So, what could you do to make that easy to do (as in gathering the people, finding where to go, etc.) and make it rewarding enough that they would still go, even if they were dominated by the elite 8v8 groups that ran them over?

Getting to keeps to defend should be easier, but not super easy. Gathering people for relic raids should be easier to coordinate (perhaps a dedicated RvR channel instead of LFG or whatever). Relic bonuses might be higher when initially taken but degrade over time, eventually returning to their home land (mystically) with limited power that grows over time. This prompts relic raids perhaps to happen more often, which always gets casuals excited about RvR.

I'm super excited about this server. I've introduced my son to the game, something I NEVER considered doing on a different server.

Best of luck to you.
Thu 19 Jul 2018 11:52 AM by Naturedruid
I like this server a lot, especially the fact that you can see a vision the staff has within all the changes and features this server has.

I love the fact that grouping is promoted and encouraged and QoL features like summoning merchants and /train strongly support the idea of 8 people leveling together.

For this server to be successful population wise, the most important thing, above all, is server stability.

Maybe some of you remember, when the first Origins server launched, more than 1,5k people tried to play on it at the same time. Because poor, unoptimized standard DOL code was used, the server had a permanent 1 second delay on every spell that was casted when more than 1k people were online, which basically killed the server.

While Uthgard is not much fun because of lacking QoL, their code and server are absolutely amazing. 4k players online and no lags / freezes / whatsoever. This is the stability that Phoenix has to accomplish and provide if the server wants to be successful with a healthy population.
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