alb most gimped realm in terms of utility @phoenix team

can we get a statement as to when you are either going to balance this mixed ra system ? or boost some useless class such as friar/pal/wizz?

remove new active ra except the purge I guess...

remove sos for all 3 realms/irezz for all 3 realms...

remove det for hybrid class

or just add toa/mls then.

right now you are literally gimping alb realm compared to the other two.

You are making tank overpowered: you increased slightly their melee range (yeah we noticed), they have very little to no dmg variance , rendering debuff stats useless, added /switch command. Unless you want everyone to play tank, the casters setup are pretty much gimped mainly because of all those things adding together.

I think you know it and leave it be but leaving such issues untouched is not going to do any good on the long term, now that the task system is running smoothly I think it is time you address those issues.

herald top rps are only hib/mid tanks and bds wonder why..., yeah you have a few mins/sorc there n there but that's pretty much it.

not trying to cry there but I am hoping you will address a few of those issues ?

do you seriously think it is legit a tank has 0 variance dmg when hitting especially when stats debuffed ? has melee range increased, can sos and faceroll you without any counter ?

sos should be only for alb, huge mistake there.

if you keep this up, you will only see infiltrator/scout/mins in the top active players on alb which is pretty much the case anyways. this realm is gimped.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:54 PM by Tritri

Can't believe people actually post this kind of stuff

Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:55 PM by Ashenspire

Tritri wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:54 PM
Can't believe people actually post this kind of stuff

What's worse is they truly believe this.

Albion has a strong melee and career group setup.

Albion has always had an individual class utility problem solely because they have more classes than the other realms.

Nothing to see here.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:56 PM by merry75

Tritri wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:54 PM
Can't believe people actually post this kind of stuff

same as I can not believe people actually reply for no reasons.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:05 PM by merry75

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:55 PM
Tritri wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:54 PM
Can't believe people actually post this kind of stuff

What's worse is they truly believe this.

Albion has a strong melee and career group setup.

Albion has always had an individual class utility problem solely because they have more classes than the other realms.

Nothing to see here.

ok gonna do a small summary for you since you have an issue understanding what strong melee and caster means.

melee:
1.mid: svg/bd/skald
2.hib: vw/champ
3.alb: reaver ? lol.

indeed very strong melee

caster :
1.eld/chant/ment/anim (ns red)
2.sorc/cab/theu (ns grey or yellow)
3.bd/rm (mostly faceroll 2bd groups carried by pets spamming disease)

hybrid:
1.skald/bd/svg
2.full tank or full caster hib
3.sorc/cab/theu/mins/slambot (only one viable setup possible)

new ra system:
sos all realm meaning where alb has the upper hand against other realms, this gets them rekt.

conclusion: alb best realm obviously.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:24 PM by Luluko

the problem isnt that alb melee is too weak the problem is that albs main cc is a caster compared to the others so you either need a sorc who doesnt die instant and some good healers and then you can easiely run 2 mercs or 1merc 1arms add to that a theurg 2 minstrels 2 clerics and maybe even a necro for af debuff for the giggles or just the usual caba, as soon as your melees have enough rank to also run det you will have good chances but you cant just spam pets the whole time and rely on your cc all the time like most fga do but then make a pikachu face when they actually fight some grps with melees with det where your minst/cleric stuns just peel off. Its just pretty normal that almost anyone will specc det with so many minstrels running arround and 80% are really just stun bots and give free immunity to high det classes.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 PM by Ashenspire

merry75 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:05 PM
ok gonna do a small summary for you since you have an issue understanding what strong melee and caster means.

melee:
1.mid: svg/bd/skald
2.hib: vw/champ
3.alb: reaver ? lol.

indeed very strong melee

Aaaaand stopped reading right there. Reaver/Merc/paladin is absolutely disgusting for a melee train.

Skalds run around on interrupt duty, BD isn't a melee. VW and Champ is all but nonexistent in Hib. They run heroes and BMs.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:03 AM by Keelia

Shmurder’s group seemed to to just fine and they are casters

Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:36 AM by Stimmed

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 PM
merry75 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:05 PM
ok gonna do a small summary for you since you have an issue understanding what strong melee and caster means.

melee:
1.mid: svg/bd/skald
2.hib: vw/champ
3.alb: reaver ? lol.

indeed very strong melee

Aaaaand stopped reading right there. Reaver/Merc/paladin is absolutely disgusting for a melee train.

Skalds run around on interrupt duty, BD isn't a melee. VW and Champ is all but nonexistent in Hib. They run heroes and BMs.

That BD Melee assist train is strong ok?

Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:28 AM by keen

There is no 8v8, how do you judge which performers the worst?

Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:46 AM by Ceen

keen wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:28 AM
There is no 8v8, how do you judge which performers the worst?

I saw two 8vs8 yesterday, then the other grp was happy they could dodge in the task zone and didn't have to log out.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:11 AM by teiloh

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 PM
Aaaaand stopped reading right there. Reaver/Merc/paladin is absolutely disgusting for a melee train.

Skalds run around on interrupt duty, BD isn't a melee. VW and Champ is all but nonexistent in Hib. They run heroes and BMs.

Sounds better on paper than it actually performs. Reaver DPS drops a lot with Cold sists and most Alb tanks will be playing defensive to peel off casters.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:32 AM by Milchschnidde

merry75 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:50 PM
can we get a statement as to when you are either going to balance this mixed ra system ? or boost some useless class such as friar/pal/wizz?

remove new active ra except the purge I guess...

remove sos for all 3 realms/irezz for all 3 realms...

remove det for hybrid class

or just add toa/mls then.

right now you are literally gimping alb realm compared to the other two.

You are making tank overpowered: you increased slightly their melee range (yeah we noticed), they have very little to no dmg variance , rendering debuff stats useless, added /switch command. Unless you want everyone to play tank, the casters setup are pretty much gimped mainly because of all those things adding together.

I think you know it and leave it be but leaving such issues untouched is not going to do any good on the long term, now that the task system is running smoothly I think it is time you address those issues.

herald top rps are only hib/mid tanks and bds wonder why..., yeah you have a few mins/sorc there n there but that's pretty much it.

not trying to cry there but I am hoping you will address a few of those issues ?

do you seriously think it is legit a tank has 0 variance dmg when hitting especially when stats debuffed ? has melee range increased, can sos and faceroll you without any counter ?

sos should be only for alb, huge mistake there.

if you keep this up, you will only see infiltrator/scout/mins in the top active players on alb which is pretty much the case anyways. this realm is gimped.

1. Reason Hib and Mid partys tend to run even without what you call "perfect" setup, in our guild we even ran with just 1 bard 1 druid, which isnt optimum setup, Creep spec ani isnt optimal setup etc.... we simply go often into rvr so the chance to even get some RPS is just much higher then just whining in front of CK and waiting for a Miracle.
2. Friar also counts as hybrid even if you wont count him, but he is the closest to exact opposition to a Valewalker, a friar is melee 2 h, a valewalker 2 h also, friar is support, valewalker is dmg, The reaver is more the opposition to a warden, reaver is an offensive shild/guard hybrid with dmg abilitys while the warden is a defensive non shild/non guard hybrid.
3. Paladin = the oppositon to Champion, while the pala has chants to motivate group, the champion does debuff morality of the enemys.
4. Albion is the strongest caster realm of all 3, you have much utility splitted its true but that counts only on small party/groups when you would run 2-3 grps (small zergs) you would overwhelm each small hib or mid zerg 2-3 groups. You have so much CC splitt over each char you allways may have the ability to root, snare or mezz somebody.
5. NS isnt the end of the world, Albion has 2 Caster that are able to spec NS. Why does albion allways push back the Wizzard, earth wizzard has so much utility even he wont fit into the body debuff train, he has ns, snare, root, strong facepalm dmg bolt and he is able to debuff hes own dmg by 50% for heat and spec secondary to fire to increase the base DD of fire which is outstanding and unique to all realms.
6. Albion needs like allways a Brainbug to work, i dont know why but ppl. in albion tend to not organize themself as good as other realms do when it comes to keep takes, relic raids etc.
7. Albion isnt as bad as you complain you simply forget that skill and discipline may also count, not only the char you play. There are chars with a higher learning curve then other chars, but in the end the realms are even balance.

Btw in hibernia our eldritch sacrifices a lot for having ns, they basicly have no working bolts and no prime AOE just some green/blue spells and give up the utility to debuff body/energy for animists. Menti is specing light magic for pet and assist train and mentalism for demezz so we have rarely mana menta for pom, hot and dot. But this is the case for the "optimal assist train constelation". Which is absolute rare not as common as you my think. As bard you rarly have time to switch the songs seamless in fight we often use mana potions and endu potions just in case (which this are things i count to organize and the disciplin to keep these rules) I am not so familiar with how things in albion work, i just played 2 chars on albion live servers EU and another on PVP EU server when it comes to live. I personal did not like the realm itself i love the woods and terain of hibernia, same for midgard i did a bonedance skald and thane i guess, but i didnt not like the endless white :/.
Both where fine when you rund into a structured organized party.....

BTW talking about "disbalance" animist have a limit of 15 shrooms which is disgusting when you sige or defend a castle, more then 2 animist are simply usless if they spec creep to improve the dmg of the shrooms. While ICE Theurgh has as a total range of up to 3350. 2k cast range +1350 cast range of the pets and they are immune to mezz and often ignore obstacles !

These are just my thoughts about your complain

Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:39 PM by teiloh

My recs:

Clerics:
Give Smite a large boost. DDs and some CC/AOE/Utility, as it was
(Note: Druid Nature could also use a few minor touch-ups, as well as Shaman Mend)

Friars:
Spruce up non-solo healing, add some group util to Enhance and buffs that facilitate their hybrid role, and change a few staff styles (incl Heal Proc)
(Note: A few modernizations of Warden kit could be done as well; nothing that enhances their current strongest role too much)

Reaver:
Add 5-12% Omni (6) resist debuff chant to facilitate Alb AoE. Adjust style procs down mathematically to compensate.

Paladin:
Remove power cost from chants. Buff heal chant from 46 -> 70 (approx 50%). Add 1 time, 100% chance to proc, spirit DD instant self buff with 30s duration/re-use. Might need to adjust spec points back down after.

Sorc:
Revamp Matter/TK line. My suggestion would be to make a self Armor/Abs buff line with some low range, UI/Instant Matter DDs, Snares, Stuns, etc high up in the line. This gives a Sorc the option to be a lower skill-cap, hard-er target, but of course you sacrifice utility for it.

Necromancer:
Reduce pet cast time to 15 seconds. Maybe add a few unique features to each pet, and combine/get rid of a few of them. Increase PW DoT damage and decrease cast speed to 2.5s to compensate for interrupt nerf. Make Deathservant PBAE slightly stronger/RvR viable, without changing PvE much.

Cabalist:
Slightly buff pet abilities. Jade Sim -> Higher damage shield, or new ability altogether, Ruby Sim -> Add insta ranged DD, and keep casted DD as well. Ruby sim has no extra effects; underhills snare and debuff, and Amber is just a really gimp SM pet. Emerald Sim -> tighten DoT and increase DoT damage to compensate for interrupt nerf

Wizard
Add one spell to Ice, one spell to Fire.

2h/Polearm
Improve some styles. Should have slightly higher GRs (.05-.1), or slightly lower End use, or greater defense bonuses. Nothing more than 3-5% changes.

Baseline/Single Spec DoTs (All Realms)
Lower to 2.6s and 2.8s cast, respectively, to make them a bit more usable as DPS option.

Life Transfers (All Realms)
Ignore disease, and 2.8s cast time.

Snare/Nukes (All Realms)
Adjust spec requirements to the 46-48 range, down from 50

AF Buff/Debuff Calculations (All Realms)
They should be adding/subtracting [DELVE * SPEC_BONUS * 1 + .ARMOR ABS VALUE%]. Right now it's just Delve * Spec Bonus

Other: may need to review charmable pets for different/weaker than OG 1.65 behavior/abilities

There, Alb is fixed for group synergy w/o much solo impact.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:48 PM by Ashenspire

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:11 AM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 PM
Aaaaand stopped reading right there. Reaver/Merc/paladin is absolutely disgusting for a melee train.

Skalds run around on interrupt duty, BD isn't a melee. VW and Champ is all but nonexistent in Hib. They run heroes and BMs.

Sounds better on paper than it actually performs. Reaver DPS drops a lot with Cold sists and most Alb tanks will be playing defensive to peel off casters.

I've ran this train plenty. Even dealing with resists you can get a swing speed to 1.5s on a Reaver and still decimate people. Nevermind the fact that Leviathan itself hits decently hard.

Back that up with merc damage and a paladin usijng a 2h with their new damage tables and it's even better than before.

If the melee train needs to peel for a sorc and a theurg, find a new sorc and theurg.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:04 PM by teiloh

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:48 PM
I've ran this train plenty. Even dealing with resists you can get a swing speed to 1.5s on a Reaver and still decimate people. Nevermind the fact that Leviathan itself hits decently hard.

Back that up with merc damage and a paladin usijng a 2h with their new damage tables and it's even better than before.

If the melee train needs to peel for a sorc and a theurg, find a new sorc and theurg.

You are unlikely to have 1.5s speed on a Reaver in a group setting if the enemy considers you a threat - all Mid groups have 35%+ dehaste in Pac, and all Hib caster groups have some version of it (Enchanter).

If they don't use it, they might need to find a new healer/bd/ench/bm, or maybe they just don't see the Reaver as much of a threat.

And with SoS the way it is your casters will need a peel if their SoS is bigger than yours.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:00 PM by merry75

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:48 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:11 AM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 PM
Aaaaand stopped reading right there. Reaver/Merc/paladin is absolutely disgusting for a melee train.

Skalds run around on interrupt duty, BD isn't a melee. VW and Champ is all but nonexistent in Hib. They run heroes and BMs.

Sounds better on paper than it actually performs. Reaver DPS drops a lot with Cold sists and most Alb tanks will be playing defensive to peel off casters.

I've ran this train plenty. Even dealing with resists you can get a swing speed to 1.5s on a Reaver and still decimate people. Nevermind the fact that Leviathan itself hits decently hard.

Back that up with merc damage and a paladin usijng a 2h with their new damage tables and it's even better than before.

If the melee train needs to peel for a sorc and a theurg, find a new sorc and theurg.

you clearly have 0 clue about what you are talking about, so much false information, people after you might read this, kindly letting them know.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:08 PM by Ashenspire

merry75 wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:00 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:48 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:11 AM
Sounds better on paper than it actually performs. Reaver DPS drops a lot with Cold sists and most Alb tanks will be playing defensive to peel off casters.

I've ran this train plenty. Even dealing with resists you can get a swing speed to 1.5s on a Reaver and still decimate people. Nevermind the fact that Leviathan itself hits decently hard.

Back that up with merc damage and a paladin usijng a 2h with their new damage tables and it's even better than before.

If the melee train needs to peel for a sorc and a theurg, find a new sorc and theurg.

you clearly have 0 clue about what you are talking about, so much false information, people after you might read this, kindly letting them know.

I like how you back up your assessment with facts.

Albion is fine. Stop running bad comps.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:18 PM by teiloh

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:08 PM
I like how you back up your assessment with facts.

Albion is fine. Stop running bad comps.

It is not. Devs agree - thus Friar buffs, Paladin buffs, and more on the way.

Mythic agreed. Major buffs to Friars, Paladins, Necros and Smite.

Broadsword agreed. Continued buffs for Friars, Paladins, Necros and Smite.

Again, it is not - population numbers don't lie.

Just need a few touch-ups here and there and those "bad comps" will suddenly not be bad comps any more.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:57 PM by merry75

until phoenix team buff appropriately the friar/pal especially , this realm will be gimped, as said above numbers dont lie.

if this keep up over the next months there will be major collapse on alb pop, you do not want that after the time invested

you exactly know what to do anyways

waiting too long will cost you people, just saying facts.

while you are it, remove the god damn sos on all realms. there is reason why sos on all realms was implemented with mls. (speedwarps)

Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:22 AM by Luluko

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
. While ICE Theurgh has as a total range of up to 3350. 2k cast range +1350 cast range of the pets and they are immune to mezz and often ignore obstacles !

These are just my thoughts about your complain

those ice pets run in a straight line until they are in range their range doesnt add to theurgs range or any caster pet would add to that with your logic

Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:32 AM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:18 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:08 PM
I like how you back up your assessment with facts.

Albion is fine. Stop running bad comps.

It is not. Devs agree - thus Friar buffs, Paladin buffs, and more on the way.

Mythic agreed. Major buffs to Friars, Paladins, Necros and Smite.

Broadsword agreed. Continued buffs for Friars, Paladins, Necros and Smite.

Again, it is not - population numbers don't lie.

Just need a few touch-ups here and there and those "bad comps" will suddenly not be bad comps any more.

yes they did and people left on mass, cleric with casteable mezz and paladin with specc heals/cele chant, ridiculous necro which only led to hundreds of whine posts, I dont really remember what friar got except a backsnare at some point, friar and smite cleric surely could use a little but dont touch paladins/necros at least not to that degree like broadsword did that will just make people quit if only alb gets buffed and none of the other realms get anything just because some people in alb think they need more tools instead of competent leaders.

Today when the TG raid started in mid at 19:30 CET there were like 40 albs in front of the mpk with all their casters and stood there for probably 20mins fighting with the respawn of like 20-30mids with lots of none 50 players inbetween. So I dont really see how alb needs buffs when they are doing pretty good maybe not in 8vs8 vs good det melee grps but you cant have it all.

Also while we are at it alb stealth grps have it also very easy and definately the best with a minstrel with 50sec + mezz on none det classes and insta stun and sos and what not. If you buff alb 8vs8 then mid/hib want something in return somewhere else it will never stop.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:39 AM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:32 AM
yes they did and people left on mass, cleric with casteable mezz and paladin with specc heals/cele chant, ridiculous necro which only led to hundreds of whine posts, I dont really remember what friar got except a backsnare at some point, friar and smite cleric surely could use a little but dont touch paladins/necros at least not to that degree like broadsword did that will just make people quit if only alb gets buffed and none of the other realms get anything just because some people in alb think they need more tools instead of competent leaders.

Today when the TG raid started in mid at 19:30 CET there were like 40 albs in front of the mpk with all their casters and stood there for probably 20mins fighting with the respawn of like 20-30mids with lots of none 50 players inbetween. So I dont really see how alb needs buffs when they are doing pretty good maybe not in 8vs8 vs good det melee grps but you cant have it all.

Also while we are at it alb stealth grps have it also very easy and definately the best with a minstrel with 50sec + mezz on none det classes and insta stun and sos and what not. If you buff alb 8vs8 then mid/hib want something in return somewhere else it will never stop.

Mid and HIb caster groups are more than fine, and do not need anything. And Alb is underpop, look at population graphs. Your unsupported claims that Alb just likes to AFK is not relevant.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:32 AM by rubaduck

Why remove active RA's? They are the ONLY thing that makes the classes unique even though every realm has access to them. I would LOVE to get my group purge back but I guess that will make every mid and hib cry.

Both tanks and casters are OP if you play them in a group that got a routine. I prefer caster groups though, and Albion is up there as one of the best if played correct with their sorc/caba train. Tank is a slow group that wears and tears, and yeah I can understand that some don't like to play those setups but stat debuffs work as intended. Of course you're getting jammed if you're going against a zerg, but a coordinated caster group can easily tear up a melee group and vice versa in a 8v8 fight.

Don't remove SoS, actually just give it back the old SoS to albion, Ichor to mid and group purge to hib and I'll be happy. At least SoS can be used by "everyone" (I am talking about player skill level now) now.

Remove Det on hybrids and you make sure that none will ever touch those classes. Goodbye reaver, goodbye friar, goodbye paladin, goodbye Vw, goodbye wardens etc.

Why add ToA? If people want ToA go live or go to another freeshard with ToA. And don't get me started on masterlevels.. I am not playing PvE more then I really have to and 10k phoenix feathers a week when I'm drunkplaying galla raids is by far enough. At least I don't remember the experience.

Albion isn't gimped, but playing groups with no synergies will always lose against groups with synergies no matter which realm you play.

The list of people you see on the herald are the no-lifers. They play 18 hours a day and sleep for 6. Herald only tells you how active people are not how good a realm is . It is statistics that explains how active a person has been in RvR. Earning 20k a day is breeze if you play for 2 hours a day. Making 100 k + a day is for no-lifers and weekend players.

Stat debuff will reduce the damage of melee trains, where are your data on that it doesn't?

You're coming of as a salty player who's not getting synergies with groups. Try to play with the same 8 people a few hours for a few weeks and you'll see that you're wrong.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 7:08 AM by Keelia

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:32 AM
Why remove active RA's? They are the ONLY thing that makes the classes unique even though every realm has access to them. I would LOVE to get my group purge back but I guess that will make every mid and hib cry.

Both tanks and casters are OP if you play them in a group that got a routine. I prefer caster groups though, and Albion is up there as one of the best if played correct with their sorc/caba train. Tank is a slow group that wears and tears, and yeah I can understand that some don't like to play those setups but stat debuffs work as intended. Of course you're getting jammed if you're going against a zerg, but a coordinated caster group can easily tear up a melee group and vice versa in a 8v8 fight.

Don't remove SoS, actually just give it back the old SoS to albion, Ichor to mid and group purge to hib and I'll be happy. At least SoS can be used by "everyone" (I am talking about player skill level now) now.

Remove Det on hybrids and you make sure that none will ever touch those classes. Goodbye reaver, goodbye friar, goodbye paladin, goodbye Vw, goodbye wardens etc.

Why add ToA? If people want ToA go live or go to another freeshard with ToA. And don't get me started on masterlevels.. I am not playing PvE more then I really have to and 10k phoenix feathers a week when I'm drunkplaying galla raids is by far enough. At least I don't remember the experience.

Albion isn't gimped, but playing groups with no synergies will always lose against groups with synergies no matter which realm you play.

The list of people you see on the herald are the no-lifers. They play 18 hours a day and sleep for 6. Herald only tells you how active people are not how good a realm is . It is statistics that explains how active a person has been in RvR. Earning 20k a day is breeze if you play for 2 hours a day. Making 100 k + a day is for no-lifers and weekend players.

Stat debuff will reduce the damage of melee trains, where are your data on that it doesn't?

You're coming of as a salty player who's not getting synergies with groups. Try to play with the same 8 people a few hours for a few weeks and you'll see that you're wrong.

Well said.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:49 AM by Sei

You Can see in herald New elite grp now on Alb, and i predict that we will see soon new thread complaining on how alb IS OP, especially in 8v8

Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:28 AM by Milchschnidde

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:22 AM
Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
. While ICE Theurgh has as a total range of up to 3350. 2k cast range +1350 cast range of the pets and they are immune to mezz and often ignore obstacles !

These are just my thoughts about your complain

those ice pets run in a straight line until they are in range their range doesnt add to theurgs range or any caster pet would add to that with your logic

I was refering that you can cast the pet in a range of 2000 and the pet runs 2000 and then still has an additional range of 1350 to cast. So even if somebody backwards he cannot really escape. When the enemy was in the range of 2000 the pet still chases, as long he is in cast range of the pet.

BTW this thread ist not a suggestion it sounds more like a troll crying.... i would ask a mod to move it to OFFTOPIC

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:15 AM by Luluko

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:28 AM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:22 AM
Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:32 AM
. While ICE Theurgh has as a total range of up to 3350. 2k cast range +1350 cast range of the pets and they are immune to mezz and often ignore obstacles !

These are just my thoughts about your complain

those ice pets run in a straight line until they are in range their range doesnt add to theurgs range or any caster pet would add to that with your logic

I was refering that you can cast the pet in a range of 2000 and the pet runs 2000 and then still has an additional range of 1350 to cast. So even if somebody backwards he cannot really escape. When the enemy was in the range of 2000 the pet still chases, as long he is in cast range of the pet.

BTW this thread ist not a suggestion it sounds more like a troll crying.... i would ask a mod to move it to OFFTOPIC

I dont see any relevance that applies to all caster pets in all realms.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 AM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:39 AM
Mid and HIb caster groups are more than fine, and do not need anything. And Alb is underpop, look at population graphs. Your unsupported claims that Alb just likes to AFK is not relevant.

Alb is rarely underpop when I play I often get underpopulation rp bonus when I play mid usually between 1-8pm CET, underpopulation bonus also doesnt translate very well who is pveing and who is in rvr and who is a grey so I wouldnt rely too much on that. But if you want it really balanced just have minstrel get dex affected ae mezz but remove stealth and remove the instant stun give minstrel one instant single and ae mezz which also has 10minutes cd. Then alb doesnt have to rely on a caster for main cc and should be in line with the other realms. But then the stealthers and solo minstrels would probably cry.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:55 AM by Sepplord

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:39 AM
Mid and HIb caster groups are more than fine, and do not need anything. And Alb is underpop, look at population graphs. Your unsupported claims that Alb just likes to AFK is not relevant.
Alb is rarely underpop when I play I often get underpopulation rp bonus when I play mid usually between 1-8pm CET, underpopulation bonus also doesnt translate very well who is pveing and who is in rvr and who is a grey so I wouldnt rely too much on that. But if you want it really balanced just have minstrel get dex affected ae mezz but remove stealth and remove the instant stun give minstrel one instant single and ae mezz which also has 10minutes cd. Then alb doesnt have to rely on a caster for main cc and should be in line with the other realms. But then the stealthers and solo minstrels would probably cry.

it does that really well imo,

there are different underpop bonuses, regarding different areas.
Type /u and you can see them and the population numbers effecting them.

I don't know the exact calculations, but everytime midgard does a 400people TG raid for example their XP & Featherbonus drops to 0% and their RP-bonus goes to 30-35%

Fri 8 Mar 2019 12:24 PM by Ceen

Albs simply have to roll tank grps and will do fine.
Still all I see is cabba grps which will never work in an AE invite grp.
But due to recent fixes 8 men already run melee train so the Wardens will follow in about 2 weeks

Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:03 PM by opossum12

merry75 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:50 PM
can we get a statement as to when you are either going to balance this mixed ra system ? or boost some useless class such as friar/pal/wizz?

remove new active ra except the purge I guess...

remove sos for all 3 realms/irezz for all 3 realms...

remove det for hybrid class

or just add toa/mls then.

right now you are literally gimping alb realm compared to the other two.

You are making tank overpowered: you increased slightly their melee range (yeah we noticed), they have very little to no dmg variance , rendering debuff stats useless, added /switch command. Unless you want everyone to play tank, the casters setup are pretty much gimped mainly because of all those things adding together.

I think you know it and leave it be but leaving such issues untouched is not going to do any good on the long term, now that the task system is running smoothly I think it is time you address those issues.

herald top rps are only hib/mid tanks and bds wonder why..., yeah you have a few mins/sorc there n there but that's pretty much it.

not trying to cry there but I am hoping you will address a few of those issues ?

do you seriously think it is legit a tank has 0 variance dmg when hitting especially when stats debuffed ? has melee range increased, can sos and faceroll you without any counter ?

sos should be only for alb, huge mistake there.

if you keep this up, you will only see infiltrator/scout/mins in the top active players on alb which is pretty much the case anyways. this realm is gimped.

Oh boy, that is a lot of QQ. Pretty much all of your suggestions are to revert the custom changes made by the Phoenix team, GJ. Sounds like you aren't on the good server.

You know what happens when a good group of players start playing alb? They rip everybody apart. I suppose because the realm sucks, right?

Albion relies on interrupts, not damage. The goal of an Alb group, caster or tanker, is to outlast the other realm. You have 10 times more tools than hib to achieve that, mid is in between (a bit closer to alb tbh).

You complain that hibs and mids dominate the top RPs list on the herald, have you ever done a /stat on these players? Have you looked at how long they can play in a single session?

For sure they beat a whole lot of people in the process, but if you played 6 hours/day, every day, with the same 7 other players, and playing like your life depended on it and that a loss was the worst thing that could ever happen in your life, then yeah you would have a lot of RPs too. You know what some of the Illicit guys were playing in beta? An alb tanker.

It just happened that a lot of these players rolled Hib and Mid at first, now a lot of them have been rerolling alb for the last couple weeks. Los Boyos are on Alb now and guess what? They are ripping everybody apart.

You also lost some credibility when you say that armsman and merc are trash (and also when you said that the BD was a tank...). They are very good tanks, Paladins are also very good, reavers are very good.

Alb tanker is a really really strong setup, people don't play it because they don't want to learn or are just too lazy. They want to sit back, nuke, and never worry about actually playing well.

I think the general rule is that Alb offers the most reward for the player skill, and you can't afford to carry more than 1-2 players in a group.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:11 PM by Ashenspire

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:18 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:08 PM
I like how you back up your assessment with facts.

Albion is fine. Stop running bad comps.

It is not. Devs agree - thus Friar buffs, Paladin buffs, and more on the way.

Mythic agreed. Major buffs to Friars, Paladins, Necros and Smite.

Broadsword agreed. Continued buffs for Friars, Paladins, Necros and Smite.

Again, it is not - population numbers don't lie.

Just need a few touch-ups here and there and those "bad comps" will suddenly not be bad comps any more.

Individual classes being bad doesn't mean the entire realm is gimped.

Until friars have only one line to spec into for all their tools like every other hybrid, they're going to remain bad. That won't happen, so it is what it is. The only reason Wardens get used is PBT. You'd still bring a theurg over a Friar.

Paladins are amazing on Phoenix. Just because people still have a preconceived notion of what they used to be on live, and compare them to the abomination they turned them into on live, doesn't mean they're a bad class. For some reason, Alb still runs Armsmen over Paladins. That's a player problem, not a balance one. People complain they don't get the resists from Friars but Paladins can more than make up for them.

As for necros, they're entirely too strong in pve and solo pvp to give them any additional love in RvR. If you want to buff them, you have to take something away. They can't be great at everything.

Using Broadsword as a balance example pretty much invalidate your argument immediately, for what it's worth.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:55 PM by opossum12

Lol yeah BS won't win the "expert at making class changes award"...

They however do make the classes they change extremely good, to the point that they need to nerf them 5-6 times to bring them in line. The Necro is a pretty good example, what could go wrong with a class that has highest melee DPS in the game, can be immune to debuffs, has a 30% cold debuff back style proc, has a free 6.0 speed cold legendary weapon that procs a cold DD (remember back style cold debuff proc?), has a side disease to stun 2 part chain, has a lifetap, has built in stealth lore, has a con debuff, can put mines on the ground for ae disease? And that's just the melee form. Then you give them an unkillable immune to CC pet (wtf #2), a shape change form that has a defensive disease proc (everybody that touches you is diseased)?

Oh, I know, let's give paladins a celerity chant, greater heals and insta pbae heal (that heals for about 500-600 hp).

Let's not use BS changes as reference, please.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:42 PM by Kampfar

Alb most gimped realm. Nothing more to say/discuss. Thread should be closed

Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:42 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 AM

Alb is rarely underpop when I play I often get underpopulation rp bonus when I play mid usually between 1-8pm CET, underpopulation bonus also doesnt translate very well who is pveing and who is in rvr and who is a grey so I wouldnt rely too much on that. But if you want it really balanced just have minstrel get dex affected ae mezz but remove stealth and remove the instant stun give minstrel one instant single and ae mezz which also has 10minutes cd. Then alb doesnt have to rely on a caster for main cc and should be in line with the other realms. But then the stealthers and solo minstrels would probably cry.
[/quote]

Give them base buffs, heals and instant amnesia and you'd see 100 more minstrels on.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:46 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:42 PM
Give them base buffs, heals and instant amnesia and you'd see 100 more minstrels on.

sure then give bards and healers a pet and stealth and also sos to healer and we are even right

Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:46 PM by teiloh

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:11 PM
Individual classes being bad doesn't mean the entire realm is gimped.

Until friars have only one line to spec into for all their tools like every other hybrid, they're going to remain bad. That won't happen, so it is what it is. The only reason Wardens get used is PBT. You'd still bring a theurg over a Friar.

Paladins are amazing on Phoenix. Just because people still have a preconceived notion of what they used to be on live, and compare them to the abomination they turned them into on live, doesn't mean they're a bad class. For some reason, Alb still runs Armsmen over Paladins. That's a player problem, not a balance one. People complain they don't get the resists from Friars but Paladins can more than make up for them.

As for necros, they're entirely too strong in pve and solo pvp to give them any additional love in RvR. If you want to buff them, you have to take something away. They can't be great at everything.

Using Broadsword as a balance example pretty much invalidate your argument immediately, for what it's worth.

I'm not saying BS's changes were particularly wise. I'm just adding them to the laundry list of people who know the opposition is wrong here. The Devs buffed Friars HERE and are thinking about buffing them more. The devs gave Paladins a major boost and they're a strong class. All I'm saying is that clearly the Devs and BS and Mythic and probably a majority of the game population disagrees with you. I'm glad they're considering more buffs to Friars, and this will help Alb a great deal.

And Necros already lost something huge - Painworking DoTs used to interrupt every single tick. This was a feature, not a bug, or a bug that became a feature, yet there was a custom nerf here. And AF debuff AND buffs aren't working as they did on live (they lack TARGET_ABS bonuses), which almost exclusively harms Alb.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:48 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:39 AM
Mid and HIb caster groups are more than fine, and do not need anything. And Alb is underpop, look at population graphs. Your unsupported claims that Alb just likes to AFK is not relevant.
Alb is rarely underpop when I play I often get underpopulation rp bonus when I play mid usually between 1-8pm CET, underpopulation bonus also doesnt translate very well who is pveing and who is in rvr and who is a grey so I wouldnt rely too much on that. But if you want it really balanced just have minstrel get dex affected ae mezz but remove stealth and remove the instant stun give minstrel one instant single and ae mezz which also has 10minutes cd. Then alb doesnt have to rely on a caster for main cc and should be in line with the other realms. But then the stealthers and solo minstrels would probably cry.

https://unixgeek.com/phoenix.html

Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:54 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:48 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 AM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:39 AM
Mid and HIb caster groups are more than fine, and do not need anything. And Alb is underpop, look at population graphs. Your unsupported claims that Alb just likes to AFK is not relevant.
Alb is rarely underpop when I play I often get underpopulation rp bonus when I play mid usually between 1-8pm CET, underpopulation bonus also doesnt translate very well who is pveing and who is in rvr and who is a grey so I wouldnt rely too much on that. But if you want it really balanced just have minstrel get dex affected ae mezz but remove stealth and remove the instant stun give minstrel one instant single and ae mezz which also has 10minutes cd. Then alb doesnt have to rely on a caster for main cc and should be in line with the other realms. But then the stealthers and solo minstrels would probably cry.

https://unixgeek.com/phoenix.html

mids do love their pve tho so without rps earned that doesnt say much

Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:56 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:54 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:48 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 AM
Alb is rarely underpop when I play I often get underpopulation rp bonus when I play mid usually between 1-8pm CET, underpopulation bonus also doesnt translate very well who is pveing and who is in rvr and who is a grey so I wouldnt rely too much on that. But if you want it really balanced just have minstrel get dex affected ae mezz but remove stealth and remove the instant stun give minstrel one instant single and ae mezz which also has 10minutes cd. Then alb doesnt have to rely on a caster for main cc and should be in line with the other realms. But then the stealthers and solo minstrels would probably cry.

https://unixgeek.com/phoenix.html
mids do love their pve tho so without rps earned that doesnt say much

Talk to @jhaerik, he seems to think only Albs PvE.

Also I see you on the same times I'm on ... and /u shows Mid as almost always having more, equal at worst, populations unless TG is going on.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:03 PM by teiloh

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:03 PM
Alb tanker is a really really strong setup, people don't play it because they don't want to learn or are just too lazy. They want to sit back, nuke, and never worry about actually playing well.

I think the general rule is that Alb offers the most reward for the player skill, and you can't afford to carry more than 1-2 players in a group.

In most cases an Alb tank group is just a Mid tank group where each melee does less DPS at all ranges, with thinner support, worst CC, lower inherent survivability and no Celerity.

If you take the typically suggested alb groups of Cl-Cl-Sorc-Minst + Pal-Merc-Merc/Arms-Theu

It's just a low DPS, low heals, weak CC, no DZ version of Heal-Heal-Sham-Skald + Sav-Sav-War-BD/RM

Almost all Sorc/Minst pets got rekt by custom changes and pet DoTs no longer interrupt each tick, so there's no interrupt/pet advantage either, esp vs. a BD that has 27 1500 range instant interrupts every minute (vs Minstrel's 16)

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:05 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:56 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:54 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:48 PM
https://unixgeek.com/phoenix.html
mids do love their pve tho so without rps earned that doesnt say much

Talk to @jhaerik, he seems to think only Albs PvE.

Also I see you on the same times I'm on ... and /u shows Mid as almost always having more, equal at worst, populations unless TG is going on.

its all subjective maybe many mids run arround solo on their bds and farm snow to turn in for realm tasks and to sell xp items, maybe half of them is just afk but if it isnt primetime in the EU I usually dont see many fg mids, but plenty of hibgrps they often hump mmg in hadrians with 2 fg+ that mids cant even get out and maybe 1-2 fgm managed to slip through before that and farm some albs in snow and penni. Its all subjective where you are and at what time.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:06 PM by Ashenspire

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:46 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:11 PM
Individual classes being bad doesn't mean the entire realm is gimped.

Until friars have only one line to spec into for all their tools like every other hybrid, they're going to remain bad. That won't happen, so it is what it is. The only reason Wardens get used is PBT. You'd still bring a theurg over a Friar.

Paladins are amazing on Phoenix. Just because people still have a preconceived notion of what they used to be on live, and compare them to the abomination they turned them into on live, doesn't mean they're a bad class. For some reason, Alb still runs Armsmen over Paladins. That's a player problem, not a balance one. People complain they don't get the resists from Friars but Paladins can more than make up for them.

As for necros, they're entirely too strong in pve and solo pvp to give them any additional love in RvR. If you want to buff them, you have to take something away. They can't be great at everything.

Using Broadsword as a balance example pretty much invalidate your argument immediately, for what it's worth.

I'm not saying BS's changes were particularly wise. I'm just adding them to the laundry list of people who know the opposition is wrong here. The Devs buffed Friars HERE and are thinking about buffing them more. The devs gave Paladins a major boost and they're a strong class. All I'm saying is that clearly the Devs and BS and Mythic and probably a majority of the game population disagrees with you. I'm glad they're considering more buffs to Friars, and this will help Alb a great deal.

And Necros already lost something huge - Painworking DoTs used to interrupt every single tick. This was a feature, not a bug, or a bug that became a feature, yet there was a custom nerf here. And AF debuff AND buffs aren't working as they did on live (they lack TARGET_ABS bonuses), which almost exclusively harms Alb.

Using what BS did to Paladins, even if it's just to add to the list, is a bad idea.

I specifically said Paladins here on Phoenix are in a very strong spot. It's the realm itself that has issues with them, the class is an integral part of any good group. For the longest time on live people would've simply been happy with access to determination, and they've been given that and more. If anything, I'd say that does more to hurt Armsmen than anything.

Again, until you take away from any other aspects of the necro, you can't buff them for group rvr.

The problem with Albion isn't that they're bad or underpowered. It's that there are more unwanted class in albs than there are hib and mid. Which is going to happen simply because of the fact that there just are more classes in Albion than hib and mid.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:08 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:03 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:03 PM
Alb tanker is a really really strong setup, people don't play it because they don't want to learn or are just too lazy. They want to sit back, nuke, and never worry about actually playing well.

I think the general rule is that Alb offers the most reward for the player skill, and you can't afford to carry more than 1-2 players in a group.

WIthout a Necro an Alb tank group is just a Mid tank group where each melee does less DPS at all ranges, with thinner support, worst CC, lower inherent survivability and no Celerity.

hib also has no celerity but really good melee grps, a reaver has mabye less dps than a vw with his sitecombo but albs usually have more pets to rupt but I agree alb grps have less survivability because of a caster as main cc

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:14 PM by teiloh

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:06 PM
Using what BS did to Paladins, even if it's just to add to the list, is a bad idea.

I specifically said Paladins here on Phoenix are in a very strong spot. It's the realm itself that has issues with them, the class is an integral part of any good group. For the longest time on live people would've simply been happy with access to determination, and they've been given that and more. If anything, I'd say that does more to hurt Armsmen than anything.

Again, until you take away from any other aspects of the necro, you can't buff them for group rvr.

The problem with Albion isn't that they're bad or underpowered. It's that there are more unwanted class in albs than there are hib and mid. Which is going to happen simply because of the fact that there just are more classes in Albion than hib and mid.

Don't disagree that Paladins are a strong class. But the point is, almost everyone with a broad perspective on the game knew that certain Alb classes needed buffs to make them more groupable. EVEN with OF RAs that advantaged Albs. EVEN without three huge custom/unintentional nerfs to Alb classes we see on Phoenix.

As I've said, Necro AF debuff has seen a major custom change that makes it up to 27% weaker on Phoenix. Paladin Chant is likewise up to 34% weaker. Likewise, they lost interrupts on every tick. So Necromancers need to either have those functions restored to some extent (pet pathing and casting code was a huge help) or they are, de facto, nerfed vs. OG 1.65. Once again, that's not even counting the OF RAs which benefited them by extension.

And being "unwanted" generally means there are factors prohibitive in making the class function well in Alb groups given the RvR environment. It means either you have low utility or the skill/coordination required to make a setup work just cannot be reasonably expected outside of experienced set groups with good voice comms.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:17 PM by Ashenspire

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:14 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:06 PM
Using what BS did to Paladins, even if it's just to add to the list, is a bad idea.

I specifically said Paladins here on Phoenix are in a very strong spot. It's the realm itself that has issues with them, the class is an integral part of any good group. For the longest time on live people would've simply been happy with access to determination, and they've been given that and more. If anything, I'd say that does more to hurt Armsmen than anything.

Again, until you take away from any other aspects of the necro, you can't buff them for group rvr.

The problem with Albion isn't that they're bad or underpowered. It's that there are more unwanted class in albs than there are hib and mid. Which is going to happen simply because of the fact that there just are more classes in Albion than hib and mid.

Don't disagree that Paladins are a strong class. But the point is, almost everyone with a broad perspective on the game knew that certain Alb classes needed buffs to make them more groupable. EVEN with OF RAs that advantaged Albs. EVEN without three huge custom/unintentional nerfs to Alb classes we see on Phoenix.

As I've said, Necro AF debuff has seen a major custom change that makes it up to 27% weaker on Phoenix. Paladin Chant is likewise up to 34% weaker. Likewise, they lost interrupts on every tick. So Necromancers need to either have those functions restored to some extent (pet pathing and casting code was a huge help) or they are, de facto, nerfed vs. OG 1.65. Once again, that's not even counting the OF RAs which benefited them by extension.

And being "unwanted" generally means there are factors prohibitive in making the class function well in Alb groups given the RvR environment. It means either you have low utility or the skill/coordination required to make a setup work just cannot be reasonably expected outside of experienced set groups with good voice comms.

At the end of the day, some classes are just going to sit lower on the totem pole than others. Having every single class in this game perfectly balanced has never in it's 19 year life span been accomplished. I don't see that changing on a private server.

As it stands, even with Friar, Necro and Wizard being where they are, Albion is still perfectly viable as an entire realm in RvR.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:20 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:08 PM
hib also has no celerity but really good melee grps, a reaver has mabye less dps than a vw with his sitecombo but albs usually have more pets to rupt but I agree alb grps have less survivability because of a caster as main cc

CL-CL-SR-MN + MR-MR/AR-PL-TH

vs

DR-DR-BA-WA + BM-BM-HR-XX

Alb group has minor to huge losses in:

CC
Heals
Buffs
Utility
Peels
Probably RAs; possible 2x SoS
Possibly Rupts, if we have a Chanter/2nd Bard in the mix

In exchange for marginal/spotty damage from Sorc, and damage mitigation from Pally

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 PM by teiloh

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
At the end of the day, some classes are just going to sit lower on the totem pole than others. Having every single class in this game perfectly balanced has never in it's 19 year life span been accomplished. I don't see that changing on a private server.

As it stands, even with Friar, Necro and Wizard being where they are, Albion is still perfectly viable as an entire realm in RvR.

It's fine that some sit lower in theory. It's not fine for them to be glaringly bad. This is bad class design and the Phoenix team is against it.

For your second statement, most players, the devs here, Mythic, BS, most of the internals volunteers and team leads disagree with you. I'm glad, once again, that Friars are under review.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:22 PM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:20 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:08 PM
hib also has no celerity but really good melee grps, a reaver has mabye less dps than a vw with his sitecombo but albs usually have more pets to rupt but I agree alb grps have less survivability because of a caster as main cc

CL-CL-SR-MN + MR-MR/AR-PL-TH

vs

DR-DR-BA-WA + BM-BM-HR-XX

Alb group has minor to huge losses in:

CC
Heals
Buffs
Utility
Peels
Probably RAs; possible 2x SoS
Possibly Rupts, if we have a Chanter/2nd Bard in the mix

In exchange for marginal/spotty damage from Sorc, and damage mitigation from Pally

could you write that out except BM I dont know any of these shorts

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:27 PM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:22 PM
could you write that out except BM I dont know any of these shorts

Longform:
Cleric
Cleric
Sorc
Minst
+
Merc/Arms
Merc/Arms
Pally
Theurg

vs
Druid
Druid
Bard
Warden
+
BM
BM
Hero
Wild Card

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:35 PM by Ashenspire

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
At the end of the day, some classes are just going to sit lower on the totem pole than others. Having every single class in this game perfectly balanced has never in it's 19 year life span been accomplished. I don't see that changing on a private server.

As it stands, even with Friar, Necro and Wizard being where they are, Albion is still perfectly viable as an entire realm in RvR.

It's fine that some sit lower in theory. It's not fine for them to be glaringly bad. This is bad class design and the Phoenix team is against it.

For your second statement, most players, the devs here, Mythic, BS, most of the internals volunteers and team leads disagree with you. I'm glad, once again, that Friars are under review.

You're conflating the two issues. Could friars and wizards use some buffs? Yes. That does not mean that Albion as a whole is significantly weaker than the other 2 realms.

Most players think their own realm is bad, regardless of where they play. Albion was slow out the gate in terms of rvr, and people still hold on to it just being mid and hib in the frontier from that first month.

Midgard typically has a population advantage, and they're claimed to be forever zerging by Alb and Hib, but ask most Mids and all they do is PvE. Confirmation bias is an awful thing.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:49 PM by jg777

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:35 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
At the end of the day, some classes are just going to sit lower on the totem pole than others. Having every single class in this game perfectly balanced has never in it's 19 year life span been accomplished. I don't see that changing on a private server.

As it stands, even with Friar, Necro and Wizard being where they are, Albion is still perfectly viable as an entire realm in RvR.

It's fine that some sit lower in theory. It's not fine for them to be glaringly bad. This is bad class design and the Phoenix team is against it.

For your second statement, most players, the devs here, Mythic, BS, most of the internals volunteers and team leads disagree with you. I'm glad, once again, that Friars are under review.

You're conflating the two issues. Could friars and wizards use some buffs? Yes. That does not mean that Albion as a whole is significantly weaker than the other 2 realms.

Most players think their own realm is bad, regardless of where they play. Albion was slow out the gate in terms of rvr, and people still hold on to it just being mid and hib in the frontier from that first month.

Midgard typically has a population advantage, and they're claimed to be forever zerging by Alb and Hib, but ask most Mids and all they do is PvE. Confirmation bias is an awful thing.

Albion is significantly weaker in fielding comparable groups of the other realms. This is because Albion has necessary RvR abilities spread on more classes than the others. If groups were 10-12 players instead of 8, Albion could more easily field comparable groups as the other realms with various class make ups/spec line to acquire all the abilities needed and wanted. What many Albion’s want is some of their classes to have more of these necessary abilities with their other desired abilities already in their spec lines to fix this long-standing issue, which is understandable (and I agree some do need adjustments made). However, even expanding the group size itself could alleviate a lot of the issues Albion is experiencing (and has been for many years) to allow them to get all the necessary abilities for the group plus the other desired abilities to more aptly compete with the other realms.

This is easily highlighted in 8v8 circumstances/group compositions and why certain classes have to be excluded from Albion groups because they don’t have necessary abilities or enough necessary abilities and there’s simply no room for them in the group if they don’t.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:01 AM by Luluko

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:27 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:22 PM
could you write that out except BM I dont know any of these shorts

Longform:
Cleric
Cleric
Sorc
Minst
+
Merc/Arms
Merc/Arms
Pally
Theurg

vs
Druid
Druid
Bard
Warden
+
BM
BM
Hero
Wild Card

thanks

if those 2 would face each other I agree hibs would easiely have the upper hand if they are equally well played, alb could maybe use demezz on a theurg specc or in 30+ reju specc on friar then you could drop sorc vs other melee grps where mezz wont last long anyway. But those alb grps would still do a little better vs 10+ people, where the hib melee train couldnt engage without blowing up, sorc mezz range and earth pets could be enough to take a few down where hibs would not and had to sos away. Although even that is far fetched with the amount of skalds running arround and almost everyone running purge.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:29 AM by jhaerik

Can we just remove Albion entirely?

Entire realm of whiners. All day every day.

No wonder no one wants to play there.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:35 AM by teiloh

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:29 AM
Can we just remove Albion entirely?

Entire realm of whiners. All day every day.

No wonder no one wants to play there.

Most Albs run out and RvR even if they're at a disadvantage. Stating facts is not whining. Wanting the game fixed for all players is not whining.

If anything, delete Midgard as it's full of easymoders who have historically left the game an unbalanced mess through their whining. So glad Phoenix devs are more or less ignoring you.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:36 AM by teiloh

Luluko wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:01 AM
if those 2 would face each other I agree hibs would easiely have the upper hand if they are equally well played, alb could maybe use demezz on a theurg specc or in 30+ reju specc on friar then you could drop sorc vs other melee grps where mezz wont last long anyway. But those alb grps would still do a little better vs 10+ people, where the hib melee train couldnt engage without blowing up, sorc mezz range and earth pets could be enough to take a few down where hibs would not and had to sos away. Although even that is far fetched with the amount of skalds running arround and almost everyone running purge.

In a 8v8+ situation two Bards will cover all those weaknesses.

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:35 PM
You're conflating the two issues. Could friars and wizards use some buffs? Yes. That does not mean that Albion as a whole is significantly weaker than the other 2 realms.

Most players think their own realm is bad, regardless of where they play. Albion was slow out the gate in terms of rvr, and people still hold on to it just being mid and hib in the frontier from that first month.

Midgard typically has a population advantage, and they're claimed to be forever zerging by Alb and Hib, but ask most Mids and all they do is PvE. Confirmation bias is an awful thing.

I would say even deficiencies in a single line can make an entire realm's group comp situation fall apart. While BS went overkill with Paladins, their buffs did in fact completely alter the landscape in Albion.

Most people may think this or that, but some people are flat-out wrong and can be proven so. The claim that Mid only PvEs is easily falsifiable and completely proven wrong both by stats harvested from the server and anyone who feels like sampling /u every hour for FZ populations.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:50 AM by opossum12

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:20 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:08 PM
hib also has no celerity but really good melee grps, a reaver has mabye less dps than a vw with his sitecombo but albs usually have more pets to rupt but I agree alb grps have less survivability because of a caster as main cc

CL-CL-SR-MN + MR-MR/AR-PL-TH

vs

DR-DR-BA-WA + BM-BM-HR-XX

Alb group has minor to huge losses in:

CC
Heals
Buffs
Utility
Peels
Probably RAs; possible 2x SoS
Possibly Rupts, if we have a Chanter/2nd Bard in the mix

In exchange for marginal/spotty damage from Sorc, and damage mitigation from Pally

Hmmm, I don’t agree at all.

Disadvantage on cc? Sorc + minst + theurg vs bard + 2x druid. Looks pretty even to me... however, every single alb group has 2 demezzers, while hib tanker, 90% of the time, only has one. Oops I feel alb is winning here...

Disadvantage on heals? Ok the bard can technically heal and you have the warden. Ok that’s a fair call.

Disadvantage on buffs? Yeah OK alb has to sork a bit more to give buffs to everybody, but tbh I played cleric most of beta and I didn’t feel like we left the pk at a disadvantage. Ppl need 1-2 charge and they are gtg.

Disadvantage on utility? I disagree. Ok deuid has single root, bard has some cc. Then you have the sorc that has all of that + ichor? All in one class? And you didn’t even start considering the minstrel yet...

Disadvantage on peels? I guess you have the warden peeling. Both groups have pbt, I’m pretty sure alb has better snares on the arms though.

Disadvantage on rupts? Man that one is a stretch. How can you say hib has more rupts when on alb you have 2 spots that their #1 job is to rupt, plus the sorc to amnesia/cc? On hib you have the... bard? And a pet is rooted before it even reaches anybody, so the druid pets are kind of irrelevant.

And in my mind, the fact that alb has way better cc and incredibly infinitely more rupts than a hib tanker puts them at a very good place.

Damage mitigation? Pally af chant and the merc dirty tricks, that can really stop incoming dmg.

Are alb tankers stronger than hib tankers? It depends on the players but to paint them as being the weak realm that loses in every single area is just wrong.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:58 AM by teiloh

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:50 AM
Hmmm, I don’t agree at all.

Disadvantage on cc? Sorc + minst + theurg vs bard + 2x druid. Looks pretty even to me... however, every single alb group has 2 demezzers, while hib tanker, 90% of the time, only has one. Oops I feel alb is winning here...

Disadvantage on heals? Ok the bard can technically heal and you have the warden. Ok that’s a fair call.

Disadvantage on buffs? Yeah OK alb has to sork a bit more to give buffs to everybody, but tbh I played cleric most of beta and I didn’t feel like we left the pk at a disadvantage. Ppl need 1-2 charge and they are gtg.

Disadvantage on utility? I disagree. Ok deuid has single root, bard has some cc. Then you have the sorc that has all of that + ichor? All in one class? And you didn’t even start considering the minstrel yet...

Disadvantage on peels? I guess you have the warden peeling. Both groups have pbt, I’m pretty sure alb has better snares on the arms though.

Disadvantage on rupts? Man that one is a stretch. How can you say hib has more rupts when on alb you have 2 spots that their #1 job is to rupt, plus the sorc to amnesia/cc? On hib you have the... bard? And a pet is rooted before it even reaches anybody, so the druid pets are kind of irrelevant.

And in my mind, the fact that alb has way better cc and incredibly infinitely more rupts than a hib tanker puts them at a very good place.

Damage mitigation? Pally af chant and the merc dirty tricks, that can really stop incoming dmg.

Are alb tankers stronger than hib tankers? It depends on the players but to paint them as being the weak realm that loses in every single area is just wrong.

It's Bolt Range Mez vs. Bard Mez + Insta AOE Mez + Insta Amensia. Double that if you want to run two Bards. It's impossible to lose first mez to Sorc, the Sorc mez is good for interrupts, 2nd mez and mezzing huge zergs right before they swarm you though.

You do leave PK at a disadvantage if all the enemy has to do is kill one person and make the entire group lose half their buffs.

For rupts, Chanters have 12 insta ranged interrupts a minute vs. Minstrel 16 at 700 range. Then you have one, or two Bards, your choice - with two insta amnesias, insta DD, and Spam AOE mez. You can go with Druid/Druid or Warden/Bard/Bard/Chanter + 3 Tank +/- a Warden if you want superior interrupts. You get an AOE dehaste too.

The point is, a "conventional" Alb tank group is just a weaker version of Hib or Mid equivalents that gets very little in return for their higher skillcap - and a big part of this falls on 1. NNF RAs 2. Smite being complete trash 3. Buff limits 4. Friar needing tune-ups. 5. BD and Chanter debuffs interrupting, which was fixed in 1.72

It's not true that Alb can field equivalent cookie-cutter setups to Hib/Mid. And you need far more swap-outs to go from tank to hybrid to caster. That's the whole crux of the problem mentioned by many in this thread.

Now if you threw a Necro in somewhere in the Alb group, we could get somewhere, but there are issues there too - namely it's a very specific and weird setup that requires a lot of practice and coordination.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 3:11 AM by Salviati

They'll either fix the problem with alb or they won't. The clock is ticking away and it's not a problem with which you want to be playing keep-up. People are losing interest. We know by now how these freeshards go. It's the same story every single time and it never changes. It's amazing.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 4:51 AM by opossum12

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:58 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:50 AM
Hmmm, I don’t agree at all.

Disadvantage on cc? Sorc + minst + theurg vs bard + 2x druid. Looks pretty even to me... however, every single alb group has 2 demezzers, while hib tanker, 90% of the time, only has one. Oops I feel alb is winning here...

Disadvantage on heals? Ok the bard can technically heal and you have the warden. Ok that’s a fair call.

Disadvantage on buffs? Yeah OK alb has to sork a bit more to give buffs to everybody, but tbh I played cleric most of beta and I didn’t feel like we left the pk at a disadvantage. Ppl need 1-2 charge and they are gtg.

Disadvantage on utility? I disagree. Ok deuid has single root, bard has some cc. Then you have the sorc that has all of that + ichor? All in one class? And you didn’t even start considering the minstrel yet...

Disadvantage on peels? I guess you have the warden peeling. Both groups have pbt, I’m pretty sure alb has better snares on the arms though.

Disadvantage on rupts? Man that one is a stretch. How can you say hib has more rupts when on alb you have 2 spots that their #1 job is to rupt, plus the sorc to amnesia/cc? On hib you have the... bard? And a pet is rooted before it even reaches anybody, so the druid pets are kind of irrelevant.

And in my mind, the fact that alb has way better cc and incredibly infinitely more rupts than a hib tanker puts them at a very good place.

Damage mitigation? Pally af chant and the merc dirty tricks, that can really stop incoming dmg.

Are alb tankers stronger than hib tankers? It depends on the players but to paint them as being the weak realm that loses in every single area is just wrong.

It's Bolt Range Mez vs. Bard Mez + Insta AOE Mez + Insta Amensia. Double that if you want to run two Bards. It's impossible to lose first mez to Sorc, the Sorc mez is good for interrupts, 2nd mez and mezzing huge zergs right before they swarm you though.

You do leave PK at a disadvantage if all the enemy has to do is kill one person and make the entire group lose half their buffs.

For rupts, Chanters have 12 insta ranged interrupts a minute vs. Minstrel 16 at 700 range. Then you have one, or two Bards, your choice - with two insta amnesias, insta DD, and Spam AOE mez. You can go with Druid/Druid or Warden/Bard/Bard/Chanter + 3 Tank +/- a Warden if you want superior interrupts. You get an AOE dehaste too.

The point is, a "conventional" Alb tank group is just a weaker version of Hib or Mid equivalents that gets very little in return for their higher skillcap - and a big part of this falls on 1. NNF RAs 2. Smite being complete trash 3. Buff limits 4. Friar needing tune-ups. 5. BD and Chanter debuffs interrupting, which was fixed in 1.72

It's not true that Alb can field equivalent cookie-cutter setups to Hib/Mid. And you need far more swap-outs to go from tank to hybrid to caster. That's the whole crux of the problem mentioned by many in this thread.

Now if you threw a Necro in somewhere in the Alb group, we could get somewhere, but there are issues there too - namely it's a very specific and weird setup that requires a lot of practice and coordination.

I don’t want to sound rude, but did you just sah that an enchanter in a hib tanker was a superior rupter than a minstrel? Are you serious?

I wonder where all these hib tanker with enchanter groups are.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 5:44 AM by teiloh

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 4:51 AM
I don’t want to sound rude, but did you just sah that an enchanter in a hib tanker was a superior rupter than a minstrel? Are you serious?

I wonder where all these hib tanker with enchanter groups are.

They have 12 ranged interrupts per second, Minstrel has 16 Mid range.

Chanter Debuff = 5s RUT

That's 12

Minstrel has four shouts = 30s Confuse, 10s Stun, 15s DD x 2

That's 2 + 6 + 8

I mean if you're not too tempted to just DPS, a Chanter and especially BD can help their group 80-90% lockdown any caster.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:03 AM by faliv

Tritri wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 10:54 PM
Can't believe people actually post this kind of stuff

Just make a char in alb and level in random xp-groups. It is physically painfull, and i am realy tolerant. But you find people on alb in 2019, boy oh boy

Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:35 AM by jhaerik

Best way to fix your "alb is underpop QQ QQ QQ" nonsense must be to get on the forums and complain about how bad they are.

That'll get more people on Alb for sure.

Meanwhile getting rolled by Alb zergs nightly out here. Do you even RvR?

Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:58 AM by Ceen

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:35 AM
Best way to fix your "alb is underpop QQ QQ QQ" nonsense must be to get on the forums and complain about how bad they are.

That'll get more people on Alb for sure.

Meanwhile getting rolled by Alb zergs nightly out here. Do you even RvR?

They are busy theory crafting.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:01 AM by

Uthred

We (the Phoenix team) think the class/realm balance is good as it is now. There may be some minor changes in future patches, but those wont be Albion only changes.

Creating a balance between three realms with all different classes isnt easy and it will never be. The team is always focusing on the big picture and trying to balance the realms as good as possible. Saying that one realm is gimped is just not correct. There are so many different reasons why you may have the feeling that your realm is gimped, but Albion or any other realm isnt on this server.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:42 AM by teiloh

Uthred wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:01 AM
We (the Phoenix team) think the class/realm balance is good as it is now. There may be some minor changes in future patches, but those wont be Albion only changes.

A few changes to Friars and Smite would go a really long way. As well as some bug fixes.

They could be minor changes, but still have an enormous impact on RvR imo.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:18 PM by jg777

jhaerik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:35 AM
Best way to fix your "alb is underpop QQ QQ QQ" nonsense must be to get on the forums and complain about how bad they are.

That'll get more people on Alb for sure.

Meanwhile getting rolled by Alb zergs nightly out here. Do you even RvR?

This has nothing to do with the discussion of group synergy and Albion having the historically lowest of the three realms. Albion has more classes than the other realms but that’s its Achilles heel, their abilities are spread out on so many classes it’s difficult to get all the necessary abilities an RvR group needs plus other wanted abilities. This leaves classes routinely left out because Albion groups just can’t afford to have them in a group. Albion has strong classes but not necessarily strong synergy between them and that’s why you’ll still see classes like the Friar left out of Albion groups- great class, still lacks the synergy needed for groups. Albion is known for being a solo/zerg realm, that’s where their classes either shine or flaws get watered down enough to compete. Seeing Albion’s out in RvR, even getting kills, doesn’t discount this lack of class synergy.

Now it’s true that perhaps this is wrong, that Albion players have just historically never learned to play the game or their classes over the years. Maybe the solution is Albion could use some of the knowledgeable Hibernian or Midgardian players to show them how to do that, but I’d wager what’s really going on is Albion classes actually lack the synergy of the other realms classes and that’s why they’ve struggled with group composition. At the end of the day I’m sure most Albion’s would rather remove a few classes from their realm and consolidate their abilities on fewer classes.

But for now continue the zerg Albion’s and may the odds be ever in your favor.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by opossum12

jg777 wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:18 PM
jhaerik wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:35 AM
Best way to fix your "alb is underpop QQ QQ QQ" nonsense must be to get on the forums and complain about how bad they are.

That'll get more people on Alb for sure.

Meanwhile getting rolled by Alb zergs nightly out here. Do you even RvR?

This has nothing to do with the discussion of group synergy and Albion having the historically lowest of the three realms. Albion has more classes than the other realms but that’s its Achilles heel, their abilities are spread out on so many classes it’s difficult to get all the necessary abilities an RvR group needs plus other wanted abilities. This leaves classes routinely left out because Albion groups just can’t afford to have them in a group. Albion has strong classes but not necessarily strong synergy between them and that’s why you’ll still see classes like the Friar left out of Albion groups- great class, still lacks the synergy needed for groups. Albion is known for being a solo/zerg realm, that’s where their classes either shine or flaws get watered down enough to compete. Seeing Albion’s out in RvR, even getting kills, doesn’t discount this lack of class synergy.

Now it’s true that perhaps this is wrong, that Albion players have just historically never learned to play the game or their classes over the years. Maybe the solution is Albion could use some of the knowledgeable Hibernian or Midgardian players to show them how to do that, but I’d wager what’s really going on is Albion classes actually lack the synergy of the other realms classes and that’s why they’ve struggled with group composition. At the end of the day I’m sure most Albion’s would rather remove a few classes from their realm and consolidate their abilities on fewer classes.

But for now continue the zerg Albion’s and may the odds be ever in your favor.

If you go look on the herald today, looks like the knowledgeable hibs are currently showing albs how to play.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 10:39 PM by Salviati

Uthred wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:01 AM
We (the Phoenix team) think the class/realm balance is good as it is now. There may be some minor changes in future patches, but those wont be Albion only changes.

Creating a balance between three realms with all different classes isnt easy and it will never be. The team is always focusing on the big picture and trying to balance the realms as good as possible. Saying that one realm is gimped is just not correct. There are so many different reasons why you may have the feeling that your realm is gimped, but Albion or any other realm isnt on this server.

Albs are gimped. Theory, numbers, evidence and common sense all support that case. If you guys think realm balance is good you either have no clue what you're talking about or intentionally put Alb at a disadvantage because you think it should be that way.

In any case, you're wrong and it's going to impact the server negatively. You can take the uthgard approach or you can try actually recognizing problems and fixing them. It is, of course, your decision and I don't really care what you do anymore. But you've been informed. Perhaps you should seek someone who is capable of objectivity to step in and help you out, because you clearly don't understand it.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 1:58 AM by Isavyr

Salviati wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 10:39 PM
Albs are gimped. Theory, numbers, evidence and common sense all support that case. If you guys think realm balance is good you either have no clue what you're talking about or intentionally put Alb at a disadvantage because you think it should be that way.

In any case, you're wrong and it's going to impact the server negatively. You can take the uthgard approach or you can try actually recognizing problems and fixing them. It is, of course, your decision and I don't really care what you do anymore. But you've been informed. Perhaps you should seek someone who is capable of objectivity to step in and help you out, because you clearly don't understand it.

This reads like such an angsty teen post. There are some veteran players who disagree with your assessment Salviati. Play body caster group; it's incredibly strong. Alb has some weak specs that could use some love--all three realms do. But the idea that Alb sucks, and the world is ending, come on..
Any issues with people failing to succeed with Albion are due to either building inefficient comps (you can do this on any realm), or failure to play their strengths. In other words, it's a L2P issue, not a realm balance issue.

Incidentally people said this for years, but a few good groups on Genesis and then on Uth2 again showed that it's totally wrong, even without remove nearsight and despite facing group purge. And before you go there--it doesn't have anything to do with SOS.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 3:01 AM by Salviati

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 1:58 AM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 10:39 PM
Albs are gimped. Theory, numbers, evidence and common sense all support that case. If you guys think realm balance is good you either have no clue what you're talking about or intentionally put Alb at a disadvantage because you think it should be that way.

In any case, you're wrong and it's going to impact the server negatively. You can take the uthgard approach or you can try actually recognizing problems and fixing them. It is, of course, your decision and I don't really care what you do anymore. But you've been informed. Perhaps you should seek someone who is capable of objectivity to step in and help you out, because you clearly don't understand it.

This reads like such an angsty teen post. There are some veteran players who disagree with your assessment Salviati. Play body caster group; it's incredibly strong. Alb has some weak specs that could use some love--all three realms do. But the idea that Alb sucks, and the world is ending, come on..
Any issues with people failing to succeed with Albion are due to either building inefficient comps (you can do this on any realm), or failure to play their strengths. In other words, it's a L2P issue, not a realm balance issue.

Incidentally people said this for years, but a few good groups on Genesis and then on Uth2 again showed that it's totally wrong, even without remove nearsight and despite facing group purge. And before you go there--it doesn't have anything to do with SOS.

No it doesn't and I stand by what I typed. And sure, a well-practiced albion group can compete and even succeed, but they have to be so much better and make fewer mistakes than the opponent. Not sure why this is so hard for people like you to understand. I mean simple mathematics and a comparison of numbers wholly vindicate this basic observation. You can't argue against it. Rather, to do so is to deny reality and make your argument nonsense by definition by default.

SoS does, in fact, have a lot to do with a lot of things, by the way.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 3:33 AM by Seige

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 1:58 AM
Salviati wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 10:39 PM
Albs are gimped. Theory, numbers, evidence and common sense all support that case. If you guys think realm balance is good you either have no clue what you're talking about or intentionally put Alb at a disadvantage because you think it should be that way.

In any case, you're wrong and it's going to impact the server negatively. You can take the uthgard approach or you can try actually recognizing problems and fixing them. It is, of course, your decision and I don't really care what you do anymore. But you've been informed. Perhaps you should seek someone who is capable of objectivity to step in and help you out, because you clearly don't understand it.

This reads like such an angsty teen post. There are some veteran players who disagree with your assessment Salviati. Play body caster group; it's incredibly strong. Alb has some weak specs that could use some love--all three realms do. But the idea that Alb sucks, and the world is ending, come on..
Any issues with people failing to succeed with Albion are due to either building inefficient comps (you can do this on any realm), or failure to play their strengths. In other words, it's a L2P issue, not a realm balance issue.

Incidentally people said this for years, but a few good groups on Genesis and then on Uth2 again showed that it's totally wrong, even without remove nearsight and despite facing group purge. And before you go there--it doesn't have anything to do with SOS.

Majority of Vets know that Alb is and was unbalanced. I am shocked at the amount of uninformed players in this thread. This game has been out since 2001. There's nothing new for this server. Alb still has trouble with group comp. Phoenix developers have chosen to ignore it or they, like has been said don't believe it. So imo just like my old thread my hopes for any Alb changes are dead.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:47 AM by Isavyr

Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 3:33 AM
Majority of Vets know that Alb is and was unbalanced.

In what way?

Friars? Wizards? You can disregard certain classes--pretend they don't exist--and Albion looks a lot better. There may be reasons Albion is underpowered, but I haven't seen anything true in this thread. Maybe you could explain?

Sun 10 Mar 2019 7:45 AM by merry75

funny when I read the comments telling you to play body caster setup

first of alb should not be reduced to one kind of setup, any hib/mid setup would work because of their utilities

secondly SOS, yup SOS with classic mode is fucking up ALB pretty bad.

I don't know why this is even a talk, alb is the most gimped realm out of the 3, but yeah I guess it is pretty healthy to keep the things as they are...

90% of alb setups mostly contain only cleric/sorc/cab/minst

like there is not much to do to get alb on par with other realms @phoenix team

3 class changes to do:

friar: single buff hast, reduc endo, proc heal buff similar to live in resist spec, increase to 2.0 spec points for more utility, access to 3.5 ns cure at 30+ pts in heal

pal: celerity chant, af spec pal chant should stack up with af buff cleric

wizzard: debuff 15% on its own dd fire

1 ra ability to remove for MID and HIB : SOS.

make that simple switch and you have all the realms balanced.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 4:01 PM by Milchschnidde

merry75 wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 7:45 AM
funny when I read the comments telling you to play body caster setup

first of alb should not be reduced to one kind of setup, any hib/mid setup would work because of their utilities

secondly SOS, yup SOS with classic mode is fucking up ALB pretty bad.

I don't know why this is even a talk, alb is the most gimped realm out of the 3, but yeah I guess it is pretty healthy to keep the things as they are...

90% of alb setups mostly contain only cleric/sorc/cab/minst

like there is not much to do to get alb on par with other realms @phoenix team

3 class changes to do:

friar: single buff hast, reduc endo, proc heal buff similar to live in resist spec, increase to 2.0 spec points for more utility, access to 3.5 ns cure at 30+ pts in heal

pal: celerity chant, af spec pal chant should stack up with af buff cleric

wizzard: debuff 15% on its own dd fire

1 ra ability to remove for MID and HIB : SOS.

make that simple switch and you have all the realms balanced.

I dont know why alb players are so noob, have you ever seen other setups in hibernia other then "heat debuff" assist train ? It's like copy of the caba, sorc assist train...
Wizzards are allready able to debuff theirself 50% of heat ->earth wizzard with secondary spec fire is a viable option far more supperior then "15%" debuff, they also got nearsight and some other nice stuff like aoe root, aoe dot, snare etc ... just look at the chars you own.
Firar doesnt need much of a buff he is allready strong in duels and doesnt need ns cure because it would make it unbalance vs other realms that are related to main healer for ns cure..
Paladin has allready been buffed so much that he is allready strong enough.
Guess why they did remove group purge from hibs and gave them sos ? If you want you can have SoS back and hibs get group purge back, imagine 2 druids having group purge? your CC will be useless... That was a balance thing why they did remove grp purge and added SOS.
Before asking how to buff things in albion you should ask yourself which things should/could be nerfed in comparition to other realms ? Dont you think mezz range and radius of sorc mezz isnt much more powerfull compared to others? Hibernia has instant amnesia with coold down, you have cast amnesia which could be spammed to interrupt moc for example...

You simply just compare things that simply dont fit into your personal skill level about daoc. We have often lost against albion groups because we have been spammed to death by theurgh pets for example you cant do much against pet spamm if you dont have enough AOE caster. We have no aoe confusion, wouldnt be fair to have aoe confusion as bard against theurg pets in exchange that ani pets can be mezzed ? When you look into such things you will come to the conclusion that all realm have strenghts and weaknesses.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:19 PM by Seige

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:47 AM
Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 3:33 AM
Majority of Vets know that Alb is and was unbalanced.

In what way?

Friars? Wizards? You can disregard certain classes--pretend they don't exist--and Albion looks a lot better. There may be reasons Albion is underpowered, but I haven't seen anything true in this thread. Maybe you could explain?

Yah I can try again. My main gripe is the lack of AoE Insta CC's in the Alb grp. That and Clerics having no real CC. It pigeonholes Alb into concrete comps in order to compete with Hib/Mid. I think if you gave Clerics a Insta stun/mez even on their smite line it would even things up considerably. Before anyone says they have an aoe mez on the smite line, its a pbaoe guys.. Come on def not viable. So my last proposal was to give Ichor and/or Twf to a few more Alb classes. Icor on a Cabby would be great. Do I think that Albs can compete with Hibs/Mids.. Yes.. There is not doubt that there are dang good Alb 8 mans out there. Always has been. If you look at the skill needed to play Alb in an 8 man comp vs the skill needed to play competitively on Hib/Mid. That same Alb group is going to have to play perfect to overcome the lack of AoE instas.

The reason Alb melee groups are meh. You still have to have a sorc for CC. He is paper soft and has no instas to get himself or others out of a jam like the other CC classes on Hib/Mid. Just my 2 cents.. I don't expect anything to change. Albs will just have to learn to play better than Hib/Mid in order to compete like on live. There are 1000's of older posts that explain the imbalance on Alb way better than I can. I suggest if anyone is really interested just do a few google searches to find em.. They are literally on every Daoc forum.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 7:21 PM by Isavyr

Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
My main gripe is the lack of AoE Insta CC's in the Alb grp. That and Clerics having no real CC.

Thanks for expanding on your comment. There are a few things about each realm that are both positive and negative. Albion's lack of CC on cleric means the cleric is exclusively devoted towards healing/rupting and free from other responsibilities. This is a downside if no healing is required, as their contribution is limited to rupting one target at a time, but a strength when healing is that's all that's required because then they won't be incapable of providing the other responsibilities to their group. For example, look at the Healer, which has to juggle Healing and CCing. If the Healer's group is pushed, they will have to fall back to mostly healing will reduces their ability to CC. This is a strength and a weakness for both sides, imo.

Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
That same Alb group is going to have to play perfect to overcome the lack of AoE instas.

I think this is a common misconception with Sorc--they often try for the first mezz, and they aren't built to do that. In my experience, it's a mistake. That'll open the sorc to an enemy tank-rush, or enemy instants, which can then cascade into multiple bad situations. Better to pre-loop. Does that require more skill than quickly finding first target and mezzing? Debatable in my mind. The fact the sorc should loop back on INC (unless it's an ambush) means they have more time to select a target (and a proper one at that--in first few seconds, the enemy group will have speed in addition to likely splitting, which will wreck a sorc's mezz).

Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
The reason Alb melee groups are meh. You still have to have a sorc for CC. He is paper soft and has no instas to get himself or others out of a jam like the other CC classes on Hib/Mid.

Melee groups push. The theurgist's and sorcs range help them push safely from the backline. I think again there's a misconception you need immediate mezz to win a fight--it's an expectation I've seen mostly from newer groups.

I could be wrong in all of this, but I did main a sorc on Uth1 when sorc was even worse off because of Charge--so I do have some experience with this. I played sorc here on beta and thought they were very very strong.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 7:42 PM by opossum12

Any reason why albs always complain they don’t don’t have insta cc, while their main cc has access to quickcast cc? Plus the concentration RA to reset said QC?

Alb, in my opinion, requires the highest skill cap. What that means is that you put a shit player on a hib class or an alb class (aside from cleric) chances are the alb is going to suck.

However, place a really good player on an alb class, and you realize the power of alb classes.

All in all what I mean is that Alb classes (aside from cleric) have a higher potential ceiling, but required a better player to use that potential.

I mean if your sorc, minstrel and cabby are shit players on alb, your group will flop.

Sun 10 Mar 2019 11:17 PM by teiloh

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 7:21 PM
Thanks for expanding on your comment. There are a few things about each realm that are both positive and negative. Albion's lack of CC on cleric means the cleric is exclusively devoted towards healing/rupting and free from other responsibilities. This is a downside if no healing is required, as their contribution is limited to rupting one target at a time, but a strength when healing is that's all that's required because then they won't be incapable of providing the other responsibilities to their group. For example, look at the Healer, which has to juggle Healing and CCing. If the Healer's group is pushed, they will have to fall back to mostly healing will reduces their ability to CC. This is a strength and a weakness for both sides, imo.

I don't think Clerics benefit at all from having an absolute shit 3rd line. I think the closest comparison would be to druids who have access to a low-con pet that can score a few interrupts w/o cost if used well, and if you're specced high enough some root/AOE roots/insta root for interrupts. Cleric stun is almost a liability sometimes and healers are ill-suited to stun - unless you are a Mid Healer, and you get 2s more stun duration. If baseline Smite weren't the absolute joke that it was, it would be decent for pet clears and punishing overextenders. Spec Smite is also flat-out terrible. If it were buffed it could be a close-med quarter engagement line with some TTK management and interrupts. Bringing the PBAE Mez back down to a 30s RUT would go a long way towards making that happen.

That said a Healer's choice to be both main CC and 2nd mainhealer is entirely the Mid group's choice, running multiple Pacs does work well in some situations. Likewise, a Sorc needs to expend massive amounts of power to debuff and deal DPS, and they need to manage pets. Yet if a Sorc slacks in DPS and interrupts, an Alb group will absolutely fail to deal enough damage. Most Albs seem to have a DPS-mode option (Sorc, Minst, Cleric, Cleric) and it's very hard to argue that support functions replacing their deficient lines would not help the realm as a whole. Personally I'd argue that the combo of DPS + CC is weaker than Heals + CC; you always need DPS going at all times to optimize, CC and Heals roles both involve a lot of off-time and managing CC and healing is much more intuitive as both are damage mitigation options.

Mon 11 Mar 2019 4:28 PM by Milchschnidde

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 7:42 PM
Any reason why albs always complain they don’t don’t have insta cc, while their main cc has access to quickcast cc? Plus the concentration RA to reset said QC?

Alb, in my opinion, requires the highest skill cap. What that means is that you put a shit player on a hib class or an alb class (aside from cleric) chances are the alb is going to suck.

However, place a really good player on an alb class, and you realize the power of alb classes.

All in all what I mean is that Alb classes (aside from cleric) have a higher potential ceiling, but required a better player to use that potential.

I mean if your sorc, minstrel and cabby are shit players on alb, your group will flop.

Somehow true, they are easy to learn but hard to master -> there is the difference from where it comes.
As for other realms i cant tell you much about it. I am a bard player currently -> in PVE the Bard is depending on the group super easy to play. The bard requires 0 Skill to play it on PVE xp farming. But in the other hand the RvR is truely not what you would expect ...
A good sorcer runs behind his party as last man and starts mezzing from behind they easy mezz most groups through 400 radius... as bard even if you have amnesia you barely can get all enemys into mezz, unless you go all in and try to use all instants at once -> brings you and advantage but only once every 15 - minutes.

The skill coordination in alb is much easier they have lesser utility on each char, so they do rarely double the same casts in action, in hib you allways have the double cast stun on the same enemy, or eldritch uses his shorter duration mezz for cc etc....

Mon 11 Mar 2019 4:38 PM by MaulsWP

I've never died in a fight and thought, you know .. we would have won if we had less utility. More tools in the kit is always a positive thing, not a negative.

Mon 11 Mar 2019 4:57 PM by Seige

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 7:21 PM
Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
My main gripe is the lack of AoE Insta CC's in the Alb grp. That and Clerics having no real CC.

Thanks for expanding on your comment. There are a few things about each realm that are both positive and negative. Albion's lack of CC on cleric means the cleric is exclusively devoted towards healing/rupting and free from other responsibilities. This is a downside if no healing is required, as their contribution is limited to rupting one target at a time, but a strength when healing is that's all that's required because then they won't be incapable of providing the other responsibilities to their group. For example, look at the Healer, which has to juggle Healing and CCing. If the Healer's group is pushed, they will have to fall back to mostly healing will reduces their ability to CC. This is a strength and a weakness for both sides, imo.

Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
That same Alb group is going to have to play perfect to overcome the lack of AoE instas.

I think this is a common misconception with Sorc--they often try for the first mezz, and they aren't built to do that. In my experience, it's a mistake. That'll open the sorc to an enemy tank-rush, or enemy instants, which can then cascade into multiple bad situations. Better to pre-loop. Does that require more skill than quickly finding first target and mezzing? Debatable in my mind. The fact the sorc should loop back on INC (unless it's an ambush) means they have more time to select a target (and a proper one at that--in first few seconds, the enemy group will have speed in addition to likely splitting, which will wreck a sorc's mezz).

Seige wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
The reason Alb melee groups are meh. You still have to have a sorc for CC. He is paper soft and has no instas to get himself or others out of a jam like the other CC classes on Hib/Mid.

Melee groups push. The theurgist's and sorcs range help them push safely from the backline. I think again there's a misconception you need immediate mezz to win a fight--it's an expectation I've seen mostly from newer groups.

I could be wrong in all of this, but I did main a sorc on Uth1 when sorc was even worse off because of Charge--so I do have some experience with this. I played sorc here on beta and thought they were very very strong.

Clerics only having to heal is def a strength to a weaker player. To the realm its a blatant weakness.
On the Sorcs comment. Sorcs have to be fluid.. It was important as a Sorc main to be able to quickly pick priority target on inc and attempt to gain an upper hand on Inc. This is done multiple ways. Whether that be loping or spreading to a good post to get Ccs out. But that's also part of the problem with Alb.. You stated that our main Ccers job was not to gain control at the start of a fight. Most fights (unless we are talking about elite 8 mans) the start of the fight wins it for the group. There are multiple scenarios I could list that would be a waste of time to illustrate. Also what about adds during a fight? Does Insta Aoe Ccs not give Mid and Hib a very strong counter measure to this? The blatant weaknesses become very apparant to groups that are playing Alb and have played the other realms. Most newer daocers or those that have never touched Alb will simply not understand.
Our guild recently rerolled to Hib. I can tell you from one night of RvR the amount of control we have as a hib group or as a mid when we were playing them is absolutely leaps and bounds stronger than Alb.
To each their own thoughts on this though.. This fight has been raging since the release of Daoc.

Mon 11 Mar 2019 11:38 PM by Greenangel

Simply no instant aoe mezz no instant aoe root no instant aoe stun.

You need have clear long range view of target mezzing before They on top you.

But Albion lacks the instants for control on there own hills and terrain were long range caster at disadvantage to roaming instants of other realms.

Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:29 AM by Isavyr

teiloh wrote: ↑
Sun 10 Mar 2019 11:17 PM
managing CC and healing is much more intuitive as both are damage mitigation options.

I agree with mostly everything you wrote Teiloh. This particular comment I especially agree with, though that is a downside of having unique classes; since they are not copies of one another, they will instead be a mash-up of abilities from different configurations. Perhaps some combinations will be harder to use but I don't think Albion is underpowered or gimped because of it.

I think buffing the cleric's baseline smite would be a great change. It's terrible in every way, and enhancing it would make the cleric more unique, and effective as a rupter and minor DPS (in cases of trying to spike a target, perhaps). I feel like I'm idly fantasizing when I wish Albion's cleric had 1500 range and mana efficiency on its baseline DD. I don't know that this was done in any patch and it seems often times that the developers prefer to introduce things that already existed instead of brand new mechanics, so perhaps it's just an idle wish.

Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:59 PM by rubaduck

Something something albs are never top RP's, something something albs suck.

Hm, guess it was all you alb players after all.

Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:18 PM by Ceen

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:59 PM
Something something albs are never top RP's, something something albs suck.

Hm, guess it was all you alb players after all.

Its just about which realms has the biggest nerds active.

Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:21 PM by opossum12

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:59 PM
Something something albs are never top RP's, something something albs suck.

Hm, guess it was all you alb players after all.

Haven’t you heard Alb sucks, the classes are so bad they can’t kill anything.

Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:21 PM by rubaduck

Ceen wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 8:18 PM
rubaduck wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:59 PM
Something something albs are never top RP's, something something albs suck.

Hm, guess it was all you alb players after all.

Its just about which realms has the biggest nerds active.

Yes, so put on your Harry Potter glasses, pick up your wands and get some arpee's fools!

Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:28 PM by jg777

Showing that people can gain realm points with Albion classes has little to do with the discussion that Albion struggles more than the other realms with group set ups and that classes are passed more often out of necessity to acquire all the abilities necessary to compete against the other realms. No one is arguing Albion can’t find a way to kill other realm players, the argument is that Albion has to be far more careful composing groups to be effective at killing the other realm players and either make sacrifices or have to turn down certain classes because they can’t compose an adequate group with the class in it.

Let’s not continue discussing or showing evidence that Albion can succeed in RvR but focus on the actual argument of group composition/utility issues within Albion. There’s been some good discussion on it already.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 9:13 AM by teiloh

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 5:29 AM
I agree with mostly everything you wrote Teiloh. This particular comment I especially agree with, though that is a downside of having unique classes; since they are not copies of one another, they will instead be a mash-up of abilities from different configurations. Perhaps some combinations will be harder to use but I don't think Albion is underpowered or gimped because of it.

I think buffing the cleric's baseline smite would be a great change. It's terrible in every way, and enhancing it would make the cleric more unique, and effective as a rupter and minor DPS (in cases of trying to spike a target, perhaps). I feel like I'm idly fantasizing when I wish Albion's cleric had 1500 range and mana efficiency on its baseline DD. I don't know that this was done in any patch and it seems often times that the developers prefer to introduce things that already existed instead of brand new mechanics, so perhaps it's just an idle wish.

I think after a long time, BS/Mythic finally made Cleric baseline Smite worth casting. 179 delve, 2.6 cast time, with power cost down from 37 to less than 30. It actually opened up some interesting specs with moderate levels of Smite.

Thu 14 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by Amp_Phetamine

jg777 wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 9:28 PM
Showing that people can gain realm points with Albion classes has little to do with the discussion that Albion struggles more than the other realms with group set ups and that classes are passed more often out of necessity to acquire all the abilities necessary to compete against the other realms. No one is arguing Albion can’t find a way to kill other realm players, the argument is that Albion has to be far more careful composing groups to be effective at killing the other realm players and either make sacrifices or have to turn down certain classes because they can’t compose an adequate group with the class in it.

Let’s not continue discussing or showing evidence that Albion can succeed in RvR but focus on the actual argument of group composition/utility issues within Albion. There’s been some good discussion on it already.

Very well said.

I would be interested in the concept of Albion receiving a version of Celerity as well.

Is the Paladin receiving group celerity a consideration? Or has that already been discussed and deemed too strong?

Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:01 PM by djegu

The main issue with Alb and a lot of people already said it in the thread, Albion require more skill to be at full potential vs mid or hib. Not saying that Hib or Mid are easy mode, because I find it difficult to master Skald or Chanter, I mean it's some of the hardest class to play.
Also Alb are more jack of all trade, master of none, their caster are good but slightly less powerful than hib and their melee train are good but not as much as savage train. (don't get me wrong, alb have strong tools either as a caster or melee).
I wish good luck to Alb, personally the hardest grp I found out there are Alb grp.

Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:28 PM by Milchschnidde

Albs have the best stealther setup in the entire game....
Infi >other realms assassin, scout > other realm archer, ministrel > crazy bait and purp pet ability ganks eveything 1:1....

Before considering buffing albs partyplay that doesnt lack much, consider balancing the stealther classes...

Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:48 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Milchschnidde wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 3:28 PM
Albs have the best stealther setup in the entire game....
Infi >other realms assassin, scout > other realm archer, ministrel > crazy bait and purp pet ability ganks eveything 1:1....

Before considering buffing albs partyplay that doesnt lack much, consider balancing the stealther classes...

Ehhh, heheh, heh, meh..

I am absolutely floored by your impressive reasoning skills.

(-1)