Upcoming assassin nerf - Phoenix Freeshard

Just in case anybody has missed this, (sort of buried in a 15 page thread) this is happening:

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:08 AM
Sometime this week there will be an update where the envenom dots (and only those dots, not cast dots, not proc dots, only envenom dots) will no longer cause a tick on refresh, they'll just reset the duration.

We discussed other options, among them also a change to the entire poison application mechanic, but this change seems to be the most effective with the least impact on anything else while still preserving poison swapping in case of resist / purge / different poison applications. As part of that update PA will also be slightly adjusted, with around 60 CS you shouldn't really see a difference, with more cs it will go down slightly with less it will go up slightly (see the thread about thid PA performance, the base damage is too low and the scaling per cs point too high).

As many have brought up before, the use of /switch macros can make it very easy for assassins to attack with 2 freshly lifebane'd weapons each round...

I'm guessing many assassins here don't use those macros...but rather the classic "drag onto paperdoll" technique which they're used to...and they are about to get hit with the nerf-bat...hard.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
Nightwish wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:42 PM
You are effectively taking away a big chunk of their dmg by making this change but not giving anything else in return to compensate?

That's called a nerf. If it really turns out to be too much, which I doubt, it can easily be rectified a bit by increasing the viper %.

Anyway, since this probably isn't common knowledge due to not everybody following along with long threads...I thought I'd post this here to engage some discussion...and maybe get some more feedback for the staff from the community before this nerf goes live.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:39 PM by Ashenspire

Step in the right direction. It's better to go after the thing that is only available to assassins (envenom), than it is to go after something that affects everyone to varying degrees (/switch).

I disagree with your "most people" drag and drop assessment in regards to it being relevant to the conversation. Without any data to back it up, it's simply trying to illicit an emotional response to the nerf.

Assassins having what ultimately amounts to Anger of the Gods 5 with 100% uptime is a problem, and they're addressing it in the best way possible AND will keep an eye on the affect it has in game with plans to make up for it being a potential over adjustment. I like the potential Viper buff mentality, as it ties in to the AotG comparison.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:42 PM by Estat

Good change!

I wouldnt really consider it a nerf, more like a fix for an unintended imbalance because of custom changes which never were intended to boost poison dps.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:43 PM by Nightwish

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:39 PM
Step in the right direction. It's better to go after the thing that is only available to assassins (envenom), than it is to go after something that affects everyone to varying degrees (/switch).

I disagree with your "most people" drag and drop assessment in regards to it being relevant to the conversation. Without any data to back it up, it's simply trying to illicit an emotional response to the nerf.

Assassins having what ultimately amounts to Anger of the Gods 5 with 100% uptime is a problem, and they're addressing it in the best way possible AND will keep an eye on the affect it has in game with plans to make up for it being a potential over adjustment. I like the potential Viper buff mentality, as it ties in to the AotG comparison.

It is not 100% uptime and assassins do pity melee dmg compared to other melee classes. I am afraid that will just be irrelevant and heavily nerfed by this and don't agree at all with the direction. A better adjustment would be to lower the dmg delves on the poisons...

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:48 PM by Ashenspire

Nightwish wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:43 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:39 PM
Step in the right direction. It's better to go after the thing that is only available to assassins (envenom), than it is to go after something that affects everyone to varying degrees (/switch).

I disagree with your "most people" drag and drop assessment in regards to it being relevant to the conversation. Without any data to back it up, it's simply trying to illicit an emotional response to the nerf.

Assassins having what ultimately amounts to Anger of the Gods 5 with 100% uptime is a problem, and they're addressing it in the best way possible AND will keep an eye on the affect it has in game with plans to make up for it being a potential over adjustment. I like the potential Viper buff mentality, as it ties in to the AotG comparison.

It is not 100% uptime and assassins do pity melee dmg compared to other melee classes. I am afraid that will just be irrelevant and heavily nerfed by this and don't agree at all with the direction. A better adjustment would be to lower the dmg delves on the poisons...

It is 100% uptime if you have enough weapons, which can be done rather easily on this server with high utility RoGs and weaponless assassin templates.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:50 PM by Redzus

The Problem why it gets nerfed is that some Assassins use 13 Weapons. Not just macros to poision there weapons after fight but use 13 weapons active switched.

PA - switch weapon- style- switch weapons - style -switch weapon - style -switch weapon - style and vise versa.

Every weapon switch they do 1 addidional Dot Tick Damage which Boosts there Overall Damage to a extreme.

So yes this " nerf " is less a nerf but a bug fix to a broken mechanic that should not work like that and People did exploit it.

So everyone that complains About this should be seen more sceptical since well they exploitet a broken mechanic.

Thanks for this Change very appreciated

Edit: i actually know a few guys playing with 12 and 13 weapons and 2.6 Speed weapons just to apply posion … they only focuse on after evade or Position stuns and simple apply poision over " normal " Combat and they went RR5+ killing RR6 ppl with no Sweat cause the posion with Viper just works for them. Imagine you get a new Dot every 2 seconds dealing 80-120 Damage ontop of weapon and style Damage. Ist just out of Hand so yes This " Bug fix " is needed.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:52 PM by Afuldan

Redzus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:50 PM
The Problem why it gets nerfed is that some Assassins use 13 Weapons. Not just macros to poision there weapons after fight but use 13 weapons active switched.

PA - switch weapon- style- switch weapons - style -switch weapon - style -switch weapon - style and vise versa.

Every weapon switch they do 1 addidional Dot Tick Damage which Boosts there Overall Damage to a extreme.

So yes this " nerf " is less a nerf but a bug fix to a broken mechanic that should not work like that and People did exploit it.

So everyone that complains About this should be seen more sceptical since well they exploitet a broken mechanic.

Thanks for this Change very appreciated

Assassins freaking out about not being able to solo heavy tanks anymore. Nothing to see here.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:55 PM by cuuchulain79

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:39 PM
I disagree with your "most people" drag and drop assessment in regards to it being relevant to the conversation. Without any data to back it up, it's simply trying to illicit an emotional response to the nerf.

Fair enough...I assumed

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:56 PM by Nightwish

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:52 PM
Redzus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:50 PM
The Problem why it gets nerfed is that some Assassins use 13 Weapons. Not just macros to poision there weapons after fight but use 13 weapons active switched.

PA - switch weapon- style- switch weapons - style -switch weapon - style -switch weapon - style and vise versa.

Every weapon switch they do 1 addidional Dot Tick Damage which Boosts there Overall Damage to a extreme.

So yes this " nerf " is less a nerf but a bug fix to a broken mechanic that should not work like that and People did exploit it.

So everyone that complains About this should be seen more sceptical since well they exploitet a broken mechanic.

Thanks for this Change very appreciated

Assassins freaking out about not being able to solo heavy tanks anymore. Nothing to see here.

There are always two sides to any argument. TO ME, coming from a neutral position playing a Friar, this seems more like heavy tanks crying foul because they are losing fights to assassins. Seems more like other melee, especially heavy tanks, want to be able to roam solo without fearing the consequences from assassins.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:04 PM by Afuldan

Nightwish wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:56 PM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:52 PM
Redzus wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:50 PM
The Problem why it gets nerfed is that some Assassins use 13 Weapons. Not just macros to poision there weapons after fight but use 13 weapons active switched.

PA - switch weapon- style- switch weapons - style -switch weapon - style -switch weapon - style and vise versa.

Every weapon switch they do 1 addidional Dot Tick Damage which Boosts there Overall Damage to a extreme.

So yes this " nerf " is less a nerf but a bug fix to a broken mechanic that should not work like that and People did exploit it.

So everyone that complains About this should be seen more sceptical since well they exploitet a broken mechanic.

Thanks for this Change very appreciated

Assassins freaking out about not being able to solo heavy tanks anymore. Nothing to see here.

There are always two sides to any argument. TO ME, coming from a neutral position playing a Friar, this seems more like heavy tanks crying foul because they are losing fights to assassins. Seems more like other melee, especially heavy tanks, want to be able to roam solo without fearing the consequences from assassins.

Assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target.

Assassins natural reaction to a heavy tank should be run!

Assassins here have no issues with heavy tanks because of env swapping. That’s not normal and is unintended, or it wouldn’t be getting FIXED.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:19 PM by Dimir

This is probably the best solution to remove the gap between bad assassins (don't switch at all), medium assassins (I switch because /switch makes it so easy) and good assassins (I would drag and drop all the time even without /switch). This will also bring down time to kill which might make fights a bit more interesting.

On one hand, I could be pissed because I have 15 weapons in my inventory, all of which I've skinned and dyed. OTOH, I will still use most of them (3 sets of 3 for the debuffs if someone purges / new opponent) and 6 dot weapons is not unreasonable to use 1 DoT in the beginning and 1 near the end, and the extras are for those purges/adds.

What I would really like it something to spend RAs on that isn't just boring passives. Viper is awful and just got literally 6 times worse.

Even more so, I want a place to fight that isn't zerg city. I (personally) want to fight other stealthers, and either I find them and they get zerged down or I get zerged down.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:44 PM by WeaselSoup

Assassins mad that they can't kill tanks without even landing a PA anymore > Makes a new thread to start more drama and everyone tells them the nerf is justified.

Today is a good day. IMO this nerf isn't even enough, detection radius, stacking con debuffs also should be fixed to put them where they are designed to be. It is a step in the right direction though.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:52 PM by Padatoo

WeaselSoup wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:44 PM
Assassins mad that they can't kill tanks without even landing a PA anymore > Makes a new thread to start more drama and everyone tells them the nerf is justified.

Today is a good day. IMO this nerf isn't even enough, detection radius, stacking con debuffs also should be fixed to put them where they are designed to be. It is a step in the right direction though.

DONT YOU DARE TOUCH MY CON DEBUFF

Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:19 PM by Bradekes

Pretty sure this is only a "nerf" to people who don't know how to play an assassin properly... Good on the Devs for coming up with a great solution to a complicated issue!

Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:32 PM by sabyrtuth

This is good news, I do miss my dex based casting but I'll survive.

- Nightshade

Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:31 PM by Kaedius

Fantastic change! I always thought it was silly that the assassin class had this additional little mini-game of dragging weapon after weapon out of their inventory if you wanted to be "good", made even easier with /switch. Never seemed intended, always seemed out-of-place, and boosted DPS by way too much.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:52 PM by djegu

Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:19 PM
This is probably the best solution to remove the gap between bad assassins (don't switch at all), medium assassins (I switch because /switch makes it so easy) and good assassins (I would drag and drop all the time even without /switch). This will also bring down time to kill which might make fights a bit more interesting.

On one hand, I could be pissed because I have 15 weapons in my inventory, all of which I've skinned and dyed. OTOH, I will still use most of them (3 sets of 3 for the debuffs if someone purges / new opponent) and 6 dot weapons is not unreasonable to use 1 DoT in the beginning and 1 near the end, and the extras are for those purges/adds.

What I would really like it something to spend RAs on that isn't just boring passives. Viper is awful and just got literally 6 times worse.

Even more so, I want a place to fight that isn't zerg city. I (personally) want to fight other stealthers, and either I find them and they get zerged down or I get zerged down.

Can you explain me why an assassin that play his char how its supposed to be played (a k a no switch) is considered a bad assassin ?

Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:05 PM by Dimir

djegu wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:52 PM
Can you explain me why an assassin that play his char how its supposed to be played (a k a no switch) is considered a bad assassin ?

Example: (not calling you specifically a bad player)
We are fighting, you have poisoned me with debuffs and DoT.
I purge.
You do not reapply those poisons and DoTs.
You are a bad assassin.

In order to reapply those poisons/DoTs, you need to have pre-poisoned weapons in your inventory, ready to /switch or drag and drop.
Edit: If it wasn't clear in my previous post, I grouped /switch and drag&drop together as a means of reapplying any poison.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:37 PM by djegu

Dimir wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:05 PM
djegu wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:52 PM
Can you explain me why an assassin that play his char how its supposed to be played (a k a no switch) is considered a bad assassin ?

Example: (not calling you specifically a bad player)
We are fighting, you have poisoned me with debuffs and DoT.
I purge.
You do not reapply those poisons and DoTs.
You are a bad assassin.

In order to reapply those poisons/DoTs, you need to have pre-poisoned weapons in your inventory, ready to /switch or drag and drop.
Edit: If it wasn't clear in my previous post, I grouped /switch and drag&drop together as a means of reapplying any poison.

I don't take it personally no worries, I'm trying to understand each point of view regarding that heated debate. (I have both stealther and visi class)

I understand, in that case, what is the purpose of purge ? what can any class can do against assassin ?

Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:48 AM by Dimir

djegu wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:37 PM
I understand, in that case, what is the purpose of purge ? what can any class can do against assassin ?

Purging at the right time

Should be a bit closer once this nerf comes in.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:51 AM by Mauriac

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:04 PM
Nightwish wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:56 PM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:52 PM
Assassins freaking out about not being able to solo heavy tanks anymore. Nothing to see here.

There are always two sides to any argument. TO ME, coming from a neutral position playing a Friar, this seems more like heavy tanks crying foul because they are losing fights to assassins. Seems more like other melee, especially heavy tanks, want to be able to roam solo without fearing the consequences from assassins.

Assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target.

Assassins natural reaction to a heavy tank should be run!

Assassins here have no issues with heavy tanks because of env swapping. That’s not normal and is unintended, or it wouldn’t be getting FIXED.

And where are you getting this wisdom that assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target? The whole point of an assassin is to assassinate people? The class should be to different degrees irrelevant to "maybe not the best idea" but its the SITUATION that determines it more than anything, not the class. IE, is the person SOLO or are they in a group? I agree that assassins should look at a heavy tank that is SOLO and say ok this will be tough. They should look at that same heavy tank in a group and say "nope, no chance, not even going to try".

Your notion that a class whose ENTIRE purpose of existing is to drop solos should see certain groups of classes and have zero chance is a flawed argument from someone who obviously doesn't play the class. As it stands, most assassins are pigeonholed into either fighting other sneaks or simply adding since they have zero group utility.

Let's take the argument one step further. If you were a DD caster and i just said you're DD keeps its castime but is now on a 5 second cooldown for recast wouldn't you flip out? This would be a DEATH sentence to the assassin class. Naturally asshats across the server would rejoice because that fits with how YOU want to play but maybe not with how others want to play the game.

The issue here is not assassin damage or poison swapping and it never has been. The issue is /switch. In any other version of DAoC that's ever existed most assassins were total garbage for the simple fact that 90% of them were either too lazy, too poor, too bad of players, or all of the above, to swap weapons manually. The /switch macro made it STRAIGHT ez mode. Coupled with the ease at which you can make a MH free assassin template (meaning you have access to any weapon you want aka a limitless supply of 99 qual RoG weapons), it's stupid easy for any assassin to walk around with 12 weapons in their bag and swap them at will at the press of a button.

This has a really really really easy solution. Get rid of the custom /switch function and problem solved and we can move onto something else rather than destroying an entire class because "wah, i died solo in an rvr zone".

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:20 AM by Stimmed

Prolly should have been like this from the start. Before alot of ppl that play classes to the limit spent 10p+ on extra weapons hah. But oh well.

Viper is now 100% useless. This is will close alot of the gap between good assassins and average ones. Relying on rng and pure meele dmg.

I was tossing up going slash for a change anyway. Least this will cut down the cost! Gotta compete with SB's in damage some how

5 weapons to swap instead of 15 woot.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:37 AM by Mauriac

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:20 AM
Prolly should have been like this from the start. Before alot of ppl that play classes to the limit spent 10p+ on extra weapons hah. But oh well.

Viper is now 100% useless. This is will close alot of the gap between good assassins and average ones. Relying on rng and pure meele dmg.

I was tossing up going slash for a change anyway. Least this will cut down the cost! Gotta compete with SB's in damage some how 5 weapons to swap instead of 15 woot.

couldn't disagree more. the issue here is /switch and nothing else.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:40 AM by Majestic_Pellinor

I was never fast enough to do the weapon switching thing anyhow, so I'm 100% fine with it.

Please bring back Dodger and IP for assassins, and also let us spec into a lowered timer for Vanish. /throwingbombs

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:45 AM by Prometheus

Some changes I think are good but why change something that isn't broken? You are definitely on a slippery slope changing core game mechanics that have been around since the beginning, if this server gets too custom you may cause a mass exodus... with that in mind do what you want since it's your server.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:52 AM by Stimmed

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:37 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:20 AM
Prolly should have been like this from the start. Before alot of ppl that play classes to the limit spent 10p+ on extra weapons hah. But oh well.

Viper is now 100% useless. This is will close alot of the gap between good assassins and average ones. Relying on rng and pure meele dmg.

I was tossing up going slash for a change anyway. Least this will cut down the cost! Gotta compete with SB's in damage some how 5 weapons to swap instead of 15 woot.

couldn't disagree more. the issue here is /switch and nothing else.

You blanket comment disagree but you only disagree with 1 part. If you remove switch you could fix this issue to yes. But its here to stay. So it now has to be balanced around this. Otherwise remove the command for everyone and call it a day. You wont be OH swapping then same time as MH swap so it would cut down there burst dmg a bit but still keep some skill in it to swap alot etc.

But they are never going to remove switch.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:54 AM by Mauriac

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:52 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:37 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:20 AM
Prolly should have been like this from the start. Before alot of ppl that play classes to the limit spent 10p+ on extra weapons hah. But oh well.

Viper is now 100% useless. This is will close alot of the gap between good assassins and average ones. Relying on rng and pure meele dmg.

I was tossing up going slash for a change anyway. Least this will cut down the cost! Gotta compete with SB's in damage some how 5 weapons to swap instead of 15 woot.

couldn't disagree more. the issue here is /switch and nothing else.
You blanket comment disagree but you only disagree with 1 part. If you remove switch you could fix this issue to yes. But its here to stay. So it now has to be balanced around this. Otherwise remove the command for everyone and call it a day. You wont be OH swapping then same time as MH swap so it would cut down there burst dmg a bit but still keep some skill in it to swap alot etc.

But they are never going to remove switch.

would be dumb if they didn't. having said that, they could easily put the /switch command on it's own timer or limit it to a single bag slot for classes like mercs/bm etc so that you can't spam it. again, problem solved.

and i generally disagreed with the whole thing. viper would not be 100% useless, more like 80% useless

and i also don't like the idea of narrowing the gap on a class that is difficult to play well by giving tools for bad players to cover up their badness (aka /switch)

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:12 AM by Kaedius

Getting rid of /switch and trying to balance a class around who can drag-and-drop items from their inventory better is a weird mechanic to allow to continue. Get rid of re-apply dots doing damage on the first tick, and then adjust Viper as needed to buff the damage envenom can assist with.

Clean and simple, and removes this unnecessary inventory management drag-and-drop skill some assassins seem to enjoy. There are different skill-sets required for different classes that can distinguish between good or bad players, but being the best at dragging-and-dropping weapons and fighting against the game engine dropping you from combat each time as you rotate out 10+ weapons is one that I don't think makes any sense or should exist. /switch makes it even easier, but the core mechanic is still silly.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:12 AM by Numatic

As an assasin I'm so happy to see this change. I absolutely despised having to switch weapons. However I'm unhappy about the choice to withhold viper changes. Give it to all 3 assasins at it's old values and costs.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:21 AM by Bradekes

Prometheus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:45 AM
Some changes I think are good but why change something that isn't broken? You are definitely on a slippery slope changing core game mechanics that have been around since the beginning, if this server gets too custom you may cause a mass exodus... with that in mind do what you want since it's your server.

Maybe because assassins whose only means of winning comes from weapon swaps are lame... Like extremely lame... If this has removed enjoyment from your gameplay, you should probably aspire to a greater skill level instead of spamming garrote while you press your weapon swap macros...

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:22 AM by Mauriac

Numatic wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:12 AM
As an assasin I'm so happy to see this change. I absolutely despised having to switch weapons. However I'm unhappy about the choice to withhold viper changes. Give it to all 3 assasins at it's old values and costs.

the biggest reason i'm not happy about this is because here comes this great new server and before you know it, the whining about assassins reaches a crescendo and we will get relegated AGAIN to playing our own stupid assassin ass-grab games because we can't kill anything together while everyone else goes and plays "daoc". This will lead to a number of assassins quitting while those who stick around begin to form ever more frequent and larger "zergs" to make up for the fact that single assassins can't kill anything and the nerfs will continue.

Old school uthgard did it
Some of you might remember the I50 server from about 2008 that flat out removed them from the GAME
Uthgard 2.0 did it
Phoenix is now starting off on that road with custom nerfs.

Seen this rodeo enough times to know where it goes. Not happy.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:23 AM by Stimmed

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:54 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:52 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:37 AM
couldn't disagree more. the issue here is /switch and nothing else.
You blanket comment disagree but you only disagree with 1 part. If you remove switch you could fix this issue to yes. But its here to stay. So it now has to be balanced around this. Otherwise remove the command for everyone and call it a day. You wont be OH swapping then same time as MH swap so it would cut down there burst dmg a bit but still keep some skill in it to swap alot etc.

But they are never going to remove switch.

would be dumb if they didn't. having said that, they could easily put the /switch command on it's own timer or limit it to a single bag slot for classes like mercs/bm etc so that you can't spam it. again, problem solved.

and i generally disagreed with the whole thing. viper would not be 100% useless, more like 80% useless and i also don't like the idea of narrowing the gap on a class that is difficult to play well by giving tools for bad players to cover up their badness (aka /switch)

100% useless or 80% useless no one should use it with the changes proposed. Even currently it might not outweigh mop/moa at all.

I'm not asking to narrow the gap. I'm saying it WILL narrow the gap. Because your taking away a skill that if utilized to its full potential is amazing. Now you apply your 2-3 and if no purge is used that's it the whole fight. Taking out a lot of skill from swaps. Also giving switch does not cover up badness you still have to switch? You either drag and drop or you use a switch macro. 80% of stealthers currently apply one set of poisons then dont swap in any way. Dragging or switching. And after this change they wont have to unless there is a purge.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:25 AM by Mauriac

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:23 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:54 AM
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:52 AM
You blanket comment disagree but you only disagree with 1 part. If you remove switch you could fix this issue to yes. But its here to stay. So it now has to be balanced around this. Otherwise remove the command for everyone and call it a day. You wont be OH swapping then same time as MH swap so it would cut down there burst dmg a bit but still keep some skill in it to swap alot etc.

But they are never going to remove switch.

would be dumb if they didn't. having said that, they could easily put the /switch command on it's own timer or limit it to a single bag slot for classes like mercs/bm etc so that you can't spam it. again, problem solved.

and i generally disagreed with the whole thing. viper would not be 100% useless, more like 80% useless and i also don't like the idea of narrowing the gap on a class that is difficult to play well by giving tools for bad players to cover up their badness (aka /switch)

100% useless or 80% useless no one should use it with the changes proposed. Even currently it might not outweigh mop/moa at all.

I'm not asking to narrow the gap. I'm saying it WILL narrow the gap. Because your taking away a skill that if utilized to its full potential is amazing. Now you apply your 2-3 and if no purge is used that's it the whole fight. Taking out a lot of skill from swaps. Also giving switch does not cover up badness you still have to switch? You either drag and drop or you use a switch macro. 80% of stealthers currently apply one set of poisons then dont swap in any way. Dragging or switching. And after this change they wont have to unless there is a purge.

just curious m8 do you play sneaks? dragging and dropping is SIGNIFICANTLY more challenging than the macro. Particularly when you're trying to maintain your reactives, not get LoS abused and keep it all in rhythm. /switch is so easy it's a joke. I can do an entire fight without using my mouse at all...... /switch is 100% the problem.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:28 AM by Bradekes

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:22 AM
the biggest reason i'm not happy about this is because here comes this great new server and before you know it, the whining about assassins reaches a crescendo and we will get relegated AGAIN to playing our own stupid assassin ass-grab games because we can't kill anything together while everyone else goes and plays "daoc". This will lead to a number of assassins quitting while those who stick around begin to form ever more frequent and larger "zergs" to make up for the fact that single assassins can't kill anything and the nerfs will continue.

Wow... It's like you can't handle a simple mechanic fix... They just finished buffing CD/DW/LA and you are crying doom they are going to nerf stealthers to the ground? maybe calm down and take your anxiety meds or something...

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:34 AM by Stimmed

Do I play sneaks yes. Who's your sneak? Meggles is mine.

Draggin is easy as hell move a window right by your char and drop in a weapon every swing. Which was/has been done for ever. Switch makes it easier yes but like I said 80% of stealthers out there don't even switch anyway. This will only effect a small amount of stealthers. Hell half the ones posting here even say they dont want to switch meaning they didn't. I agree btw remove switch and keep poisons as it is thats fine. But there not going down that road. There nerfing the poisons them self.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:35 AM by Mauriac

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:28 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:22 AM
the biggest reason i'm not happy about this is because here comes this great new server and before you know it, the whining about assassins reaches a crescendo and we will get relegated AGAIN to playing our own stupid assassin ass-grab games because we can't kill anything together while everyone else goes and plays "daoc". This will lead to a number of assassins quitting while those who stick around begin to form ever more frequent and larger "zergs" to make up for the fact that single assassins can't kill anything and the nerfs will continue.

Wow... It's like you can't handle a simple mechanic fix... They just finished buffing CD/DW/LA and you are crying doom they are going to nerf stealthers to the ground? maybe calm down and take your anxiety meds or something...

way to contribute nothing to the conversation. it's like you can't handle a simple opinion. i hear lots of places have safe spaces with playdoh and puppies for folks like you. once again, another mindless post from someone who clearly doesn't play the class opining about something they dont understand. please tell me you don't vote too.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:37 AM by Mauriac

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:34 AM
Do I play sneaks yes. Who's your sneak? Meggles is mine.

Draggin is easy as hell move a window right by your char and drop in a weapon every swing. Which was/has been done for ever. Switch makes it easier yes but like I said 80% of stealthers out there don't even switch anyway. This will only effect a small amount of stealthers. Hell half the ones posting here even say they dont want to switch meaning they didn't. I agree btw remove switch and keep poisons as it is thats fine. But there not going down that road. There nerfing the poisons them self.

yes i also play sneaks. I play an SB. i guess after all we agree that removing switch would be preferable. i'm writing in here cause I don't see how they think nerfing the poisons is the solution. i mean seriously, bards amnesia is still in the game and yet we're talking about nerfing sneaks because of a situation they created.... just saying.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:04 AM by Bradekes

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:35 AM
way to contribute nothing to the conversation. it's like you can't handle a simple opinion. i hear lots of places have safe spaces with playdoh and puppies for folks like you. once again, another mindless post from someone who clearly doesn't play the class opining about something they dont understand. please tell me you don't vote too.

I already contributed... but you are flying off the handle with assumptions and I think the Devs deserve better for their proactive approach... You're the one having a breakdown over a stealther "nerf" fix.. Their change makes so much sense, it seems like it should of been in the game the whole time... I love playing stealthers, I have always felt like the poison swapping was such a lame feature to use in such a way.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:24 AM by bigdaddyo

I wish there was a dislike button to show the devs how many people dont agree with nightwish and defiasbandit and a few others who chain post bad ideas. Please add this so you can get a better idea of what the silent majority thinks . This change is fantastic btw . Would be better to remove /switch tho

Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:33 AM by Bradekes

bigdaddyo wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:24 AM
I wish there was a dislike button to show the devs how many people dont agree with nightwish and defiasbandit and a few others who chain post bad ideas. Please add this so you can get a better idea of what the silent majority thinks . This change is fantastic btw . Would be better to remove /switch tho

Simple way to create a dislike button is to make a post and say if you dislike this idea like my post :p simple

Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:44 AM by recluse

Sounds like a bug fix more than a nerf to me... why should a poison dot function like a guaranteed DD proc on every swing, as long as you do some crazy shit like constantly switch between 12 different pre-poisoned weapons in your bag.

Whether you use a switch macro or drag and drop seems irrelevant... you’re just playing an unintended mini game to exploit an 18 year old combat system.

Maybe buff Viper or poison damage a bit to compensate? Would that make everyone happy?

Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:24 AM by dbeattie71

Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:20 AM
Prolly should have been like this from the start. Before alot of ppl that play classes to the limit spent 10p+ on extra weapons hah. But oh well.

Viper is now 100% useless. This is will close alot of the gap between good assassins and average ones. Relying on rng and pure meele dmg.

I was tossing up going slash for a change anyway. Least this will cut down the cost! Gotta compete with SB's in damage some how 5 weapons to swap instead of 15 woot.

10p is pocket change.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:29 AM by Stimmed

To some

dbeattie71 wrote:
Stimmed wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:20 AM
Prolly should have been like this from the start. Before alot of ppl that play classes to the limit spent 10p+ on extra weapons hah. But oh well.

Viper is now 100% useless. This is will close alot of the gap between good assassins and average ones. Relying on rng and pure meele dmg.

I was tossing up going slash for a change anyway. Least this will cut down the cost! Gotta compete with SB's in damage some how 5 weapons to swap instead of 15 woot.

10p is pocket change.

To some

Thu 7 Mar 2019 6:36 AM by Redzus

https://imgur.com/a/Vqrbm7e

just look on this, Got pposioned 10 times in 1 fight ! 4 times Damaging posion doing 280 Damage for the first tick when got applied. so 280 Damage he normaly would not do, just as an visual example.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 6:44 AM by jelzinga_EU

Redzus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 6:36 AM
https://imgur.com/a/Vqrbm7e

just look on this, Got pposioned 10 times in 1 fight ! 4 times Damaging posion doing 280 Damage for the first tick when got applied. so 280 Damage he normaly would not do, just as an visual example.

He would still have landed the initial DoT-tick and (most likely) the 2nd DoT-tick would have come in. Not defending the mechanic, just saying of that 280 damage he would have (still) done 140.

Playing a SB I'm fine with the nerf, I didn't like switching in Lifebane on every swing. I prefer we can do damage with high damage styles (PA, BS2, Hamstring, Leaper etc) and not be some sneaky poison-swapping guy.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 7:11 AM by Redzus

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 6:44 AM
Redzus wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 6:36 AM
https://imgur.com/a/Vqrbm7e

just look on this, Got pposioned 10 times in 1 fight ! 4 times Damaging posion doing 280 Damage for the first tick when got applied. so 280 Damage he normaly would not do, just as an visual example.

He would still have landed the initial DoT-tick and (most likely) the 2nd DoT-tick would have come in. Not defending the mechanic, just saying of that 280 damage he would have (still) done 140.

Playing a SB I'm fine with the nerf, I didn't like switching in Lifebane on every swing. I prefer we can do damage with high damage styles (PA, BS2, Hamstring, Leaper etc) and not be some sneaky poison-swapping guy.

yes you are defending him what i forgot to add this was a 10 second time Frame. also he started using dots at second 6 after he spammed me with snare,disease,con/ws debuff so infact in 4 seconds he did apply 4 Dot posions 280 Damage in the time of 1 tick <3 and if you want to ask how he could apply so many dots in such a short time look at his weapon Damage, he was using 2,4 weapons with mostly capped quickness and Maybe haste ontop so basicly fast weapons to apply as much dots as he could switch his weapons after he stunned me.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:07 AM by Sepplord

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:22 AM
Numatic wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:12 AM
As an assasin I'm so happy to see this change. I absolutely despised having to switch weapons. However I'm unhappy about the choice to withhold viper changes. Give it to all 3 assasins at it's old values and costs.

the biggest reason i'm not happy about this is because here comes this great new server and before you know it, the whining about assassins reaches a crescendo and we will get relegated AGAIN to playing our own stupid assassin ass-grab games because we can't kill anything together while everyone else goes and plays "daoc". This will lead to a number of assassins quitting while those who stick around begin to form ever more frequent and larger "zergs" to make up for the fact that single assassins can't kill anything and the nerfs will continue.

Old school uthgard did it
Some of you might remember the I50 server from about 2008 that flat out removed them from the GAME
Uthgard 2.0 did it
Phoenix is now starting off on that road with custom nerfs.

Seen this rodeo enough times to know where it goes. Not happy.

You realise that the first classpatch after server release was a buff to assassins?
The world isn't ending, Assassins are still killing many many targets just fine.

And a quite huge portion of the assassin playerbase themselves agree (and agreed before announcement of change) with the change

Thu 7 Mar 2019 8:24 AM by Durgrim

Great change. The exploit of initial proc dmg has been around for too long.
Still, Assasins are a serious threat to most classes and this is what they should be.

M.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:38 AM by l00ri

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:51 AM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:04 PM
Nightwish wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:56 PM
There are always two sides to any argument. TO ME, coming from a neutral position playing a Friar, this seems more like heavy tanks crying foul because they are losing fights to assassins. Seems more like other melee, especially heavy tanks, want to be able to roam solo without fearing the consequences from assassins.

Assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target.

Assassins natural reaction to a heavy tank should be run!

Assassins here have no issues with heavy tanks because of env swapping. That’s not normal and is unintended, or it wouldn’t be getting FIXED.

And where are you getting this wisdom that assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target? The whole point of an assassin is to assassinate people? The class should be to different degrees irrelevant to "maybe not the best idea" but its the SITUATION that determines it more than anything, not the class. IE, is the person SOLO or are they in a group? I agree that assassins should look at a heavy tank that is SOLO and say ok this will be tough. They should look at that same heavy tank in a group and say "nope, no chance, not even going to try".

Your notion that a class whose ENTIRE purpose of existing is to drop solos should see certain groups of classes and have zero chance is a flawed argument from someone who obviously doesn't play the class. As it stands, most assassins are pigeonholed into either fighting other sneaks or simply adding since they have zero group utility.

Let's take the argument one step further. If you were a DD caster and i just said you're DD keeps its castime but is now on a 5 second cooldown for recast wouldn't you flip out? This would be a DEATH sentence to the assassin class. Naturally asshats across the server would rejoice because that fits with how YOU want to play but maybe not with how others want to play the game.

The issue here is not assassin damage or poison swapping and it never has been. The issue is /switch. In any other version of DAoC that's ever existed most assassins were total garbage for the simple fact that 90% of them were either too lazy, too poor, too bad of players, or all of the above, to swap weapons manually. The /switch macro made it STRAIGHT ez mode. Coupled with the ease at which you can make a MH free assassin template (meaning you have access to any weapon you want aka a limitless supply of 99 qual RoG weapons), it's stupid easy for any assassin to walk around with 12 weapons in their bag and swap them at will at the press of a button.

This has a really really really easy solution. Get rid of the custom /switch function and problem solved and we can move onto something else rather than destroying an entire class because "wah, i died solo in an rvr zone".

Word.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:55 AM by Durgrim

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:51 AM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:04 PM
Assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target.

Assassins natural reaction to a heavy tank should be run!

Assassins here have no issues with heavy tanks because of env swapping. That’s not normal and is unintended, or it wouldn’t be getting FIXED.

And where are you getting this wisdom that assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target? The whole point of an assassin is to assassinate people? The class should be to different degrees irrelevant to "maybe not the best idea" but its the SITUATION that determines it more than anything, not the class. IE, is the person SOLO or are they in a group? I agree that assassins should look at a heavy tank that is SOLO and say ok this will be tough. They should look at that same heavy tank in a group and say "nope, no chance, not even going to try".

Your notion that a class whose ENTIRE purpose of existing is to drop solos should see certain groups of classes and have zero chance is a flawed argument from someone who obviously doesn't play the class. As it stands, most assassins are pigeonholed into either fighting other sneaks or simply adding since they have zero group utility.

Let's take the argument one step further. If you were a DD caster and i just said you're DD keeps its castime but is now on a 5 second cooldown for recast wouldn't you flip out? This would be a DEATH sentence to the assassin class. Naturally asshats across the server would rejoice because that fits with how YOU want to play but maybe not with how others want to play the game.

The issue here is not assassin damage or poison swapping and it never has been. The issue is /switch. In any other version of DAoC that's ever existed most assassins were total garbage for the simple fact that 90% of them were either too lazy, too poor, too bad of players, or all of the above, to swap weapons manually. The /switch macro made it STRAIGHT ez mode. Coupled with the ease at which you can make a MH free assassin template (meaning you have access to any weapon you want aka a limitless supply of 99 qual RoG weapons), it's stupid easy for any assassin to walk around with 12 weapons in their bag and swap them at will at the press of a button.

This has a really really really easy solution. Get rid of the custom /switch function and problem solved and we can move onto something else rather than destroying an entire class because "wah, i died solo in an rvr zone".

Aha. Maybe Archers can get the same poison then aswell for their arrows

actually why not...

Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:22 AM by teiloh

A WS table increase for Assassins might be worth looking into after this change.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:38 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:22 AM
A WS table increase for Assassins might be worth looking into after this change.

Why? Pretty sure assassin weren't balanced on poison swapping at any time ever.... If you're having issues after this change you're obviously not as good at this game as you thought.

Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:42 PM by teiloh

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:38 PM
teiloh wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:22 AM
A WS table increase for Assassins might be worth looking into after this change.

Why? Pretty sure assassin weren't balanced on poison swapping at any time ever.... If you're having issues after this change you're obviously not as good at this game as you thought.

I don't play assassins. The poison swapping was essentially a feature until it was very recently changed on live. Of course it wasn't as pronounced w/o /switch

Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:57 PM by Monkies

recluse wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:44 AM
Sounds like a bug fix more than a nerf to me... why should a poison dot function like a guaranteed DD proc on every swing, as long as you do some crazy shit like constantly switch between 12 different pre-poisoned weapons in your bag.

Whether you use a switch macro or drag and drop seems irrelevant... you’re just playing an unintended mini game to exploit an 18 year old combat system.

Maybe buff Viper or poison damage a bit to compensate? Would that make everyone happy?

Totally agree. A weapon swap should not guarantee a dot tick. At best it should extend the duration and at worst there should be a message that says “the player already has that effect and cannot have it again yet”.
I’m more interested in the CS changes. The way I read it, higher CS (over 60) is bad and lower CS is better. What’s the plan here?

Monkeys/Dogbyte

Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:25 PM by Prometheus

My real question is why allow /switch command when they knew that assassins would be taking advantage of it? If that is the real problem simply remove that command or make the upcoming change only apply when using that command for a small duration, it's strange on live this wasn't so much of an issue they thought they had to fix anything.... does that mean something isn't working right here that it's such a huge problem they need to tamper with the very heart of the core game mechanics?

Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:40 AM by Mauriac

at least give us viper at the old values and spec point requirements for this change. that would be the equivalent of adding a small amount of lube to this situation.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:23 AM by Prometheus

Too late now, I would close this topic now since there's no point in debating with the changes already in place.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:34 AM by dante`afk

nerf seems clearly warranted, just lost in melee vs rr6 scout. blocked more than I hit him.

he had lifebane, 47 ws debuff, disease, lethargy and weariness on him.

yep gj.

surviving a 1v2 now? nope.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:13 AM by Mauriac

dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:34 AM
nerf seems clearly warranted, just lost in melee vs rr6 scout. blocked more than I hit him.

he had lifebane, 47 ws debuff, disease, lethargy and weariness on him.

yep gj.

surviving a 1v2 now? nope.

but dante! i have no idea how to play a sneak, ive never played one, but my boyfriends cousin said they were OP because I was running as a solo theurg in emain and got perfed and died!

on a serious note yeah, you cant see my shocked face but it looks remarkably like my normal face. melee ranger is king (because of course?) of sneaks now. assassins damage is equivalent to smacking someone in the face with a wet salmon. you probably got their attention and likely just piss them off enough to beat you senseless.

oh and since we're on the "nerf envenom train" we might as well make it so if youre not an assassin, you cant use envenomed weapons.... GG

oh and nerf bard amnesia. its just time. it is seriously, just, time.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:20 AM by Bradekes

dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:34 AM
nerf seems clearly warranted, just lost in melee vs rr6 scout. blocked more than I hit him.

he had lifebane, 47 ws debuff, disease, lethargy and weariness on him.

yep gj.

surviving a 1v2 now? nope.

Wow maybe if you didn't spam garrote /switch you could of won...

Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:52 AM by dante`afk

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:20 AM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:34 AM
nerf seems clearly warranted, just lost in melee vs rr6 scout. blocked more than I hit him.

he had lifebane, 47 ws debuff, disease, lethargy and weariness on him.

yep gj.

surviving a 1v2 now? nope.

Wow maybe if you didn't spam garrote /switch you could of won...

did you see the fight? guess not otherwise you wouldn't comment like that.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 8:57 AM by Druth

dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:52 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:20 AM
dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 2:34 AM
nerf seems clearly warranted, just lost in melee vs rr6 scout. blocked more than I hit him.

he had lifebane, 47 ws debuff, disease, lethargy and weariness on him.

yep gj.

surviving a 1v2 now? nope.

Wow maybe if you didn't spam garrote /switch you could of won...

did you see the fight? guess not otherwise you wouldn't comment like that.

Hard to watch what happens in other peoples mind.
Or did they invent the mind reader yet?

Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:18 AM by Freedomcall

Swapping weapons every swing was always a thing to assassins afaik.
If you think /switch is only to buff assassins, why not just remove it and make assassins switch manually?
What is an indicator for "Good Assassin" now?
No active RAs to decide when to use(when to use vanish? can you call that good assassin?), no swapping weapons, now what?
Just sit and spam garrotes, and make one who has higher MoP win?

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:38 AM by Feanira

l00ri wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:38 AM
Mauriac wrote: ↑
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:51 AM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:04 PM
Assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target.

Assassins natural reaction to a heavy tank should be run!

Assassins here have no issues with heavy tanks because of env swapping. That’s not normal and is unintended, or it wouldn’t be getting FIXED.

And where are you getting this wisdom that assassins should never look at a heavy tank as a good target? The whole point of an assassin is to assassinate people? The class should be to different degrees irrelevant to "maybe not the best idea" but its the SITUATION that determines it more than anything, not the class. IE, is the person SOLO or are they in a group? I agree that assassins should look at a heavy tank that is SOLO and say ok this will be tough. They should look at that same heavy tank in a group and say "nope, no chance, not even going to try".

Your notion that a class whose ENTIRE purpose of existing is to drop solos should see certain groups of classes and have zero chance is a flawed argument from someone who obviously doesn't play the class. As it stands, most assassins are pigeonholed into either fighting other sneaks or simply adding since they have zero group utility.

Let's take the argument one step further. If you were a DD caster and i just said you're DD keeps its castime but is now on a 5 second cooldown for recast wouldn't you flip out? This would be a DEATH sentence to the assassin class. Naturally asshats across the server would rejoice because that fits with how YOU want to play but maybe not with how others want to play the game.

The issue here is not assassin damage or poison swapping and it never has been. The issue is /switch. In any other version of DAoC that's ever existed most assassins were total garbage for the simple fact that 90% of them were either too lazy, too poor, too bad of players, or all of the above, to swap weapons manually. The /switch macro made it STRAIGHT ez mode. Coupled with the ease at which you can make a MH free assassin template (meaning you have access to any weapon you want aka a limitless supply of 99 qual RoG weapons), it's stupid easy for any assassin to walk around with 12 weapons in their bag and swap them at will at the press of a button.

This has a really really really easy solution. Get rid of the custom /switch function and problem solved and we can move onto something else rather than destroying an entire class because "wah, i died solo in an rvr zone".

Word.

nothing to add. Not the poison was the problem but the /switch command. Remove it from assasins and case closed.