Increase value of self buffing class buffs

Buff potions appear to be here to stay, so with that in mind, I have a suggestion:

Increase the value of buffs that self buffing classes spec for. Buffs that you have to spend spec points on should be more viable than those you can buy for a few gold off the CM. It does not have to be by an outrageous amount, but I would consider upping values to those of cleric/druid/healer buffs spec buffs.

This would keep intact the value of these self buffing lines, which are meant to be very important to these classes.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:24 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Dacht wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:14 PM
Buff potions appear to be here to stay, so with that in mind, I have a suggestion:

Increase the value of buffs that self buffing classes spec for. Buffs that you have to spend spec points on should be more viable than those you can buy for a few gold off the CM. It does not have to be by an outrageous amount, but I would consider upping values to those of cleric/druid/healer buffs spec buffs.

This would keep intact the value of these self buffing lines, which are meant to be very important to these classes.

Unless I'm not aware, aren't spec buffs already more potent then the potion counterparts?

Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:29 PM by Dacht

Yes, but self buffing lines are only better by a very small margin, and nowhere near where they should be.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:43 PM by Brokenstring

Friar buffs sure need to be improved, I'd say.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:33 PM by Cadebrennus

Agreed. On the Ranger and Hunter side of things, the only things worth speccing for are a speed burst (11 or 16 PF) and the Dog (mid 30s BC)

Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:39 PM by semadin

To speak to Rangers specifically, you have to go to 40 to step above the buff potions, and then it's really not by much.

But also lets not forget charges. 75 delve dex/qui comes on feather items, and I believe there are other charge buffs which are similarly of the highest value.

From the Ranger perspective, this far outstrips the highest delve PF buff at 48. Couple this with the fact that our epic chest gives a spec AF which is better than the PF line, and the only reason to go into PF is the damage add and run speed. These are not enough to justify such high point expenditure in the line. In fact on Live, PF has been gone for ages (folded into everyone's archery lines...hurray dilution and homogeneity), and the damage add is just straight gone. We're like, halfway in that direction on this server.

So the only reason to get self buffs in this case is lack of resources/time to support constantly running charges and pots. And puts you in an environment where you are running against people who have the extra resources (sounds awfully a lot like buffbut vs no buffbot).

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:27 PM by Isavyr

Dacht wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:14 PM
Buff potions appear to be here to stay, so with that in mind, I have a suggestion:

Increase the value of buffs that self buffing classes spec for. Buffs that you have to spend spec points on should be more viable than those you can buy for a few gold off the CM. It does not have to be by an outrageous amount, but I would consider upping values to those of cleric/druid/healer buffs spec buffs.

This would keep intact the value of these self buffing lines, which are meant to be very important to these classes.

I used to agree with you, because at face-value, it is true that buff potions encroach on self-buffers. But look deeper--why do those classes get self-buffs in the first place? Buffs, being such a volatile enhancement of a character's strength, create huge imbalances between those with them and those without. Why would any attack class, like friar, or ranger, get self-buffs? It's silly, and imbalanced.

Why are spec buffs, like clerics, necessary for 8-man? There are many classes that heal--but clerics become absolutely necessary because of their buffs--is that positive? Buffs do not enhance game play, they limit it severely. They decide what compositions can form solely based on the semi-arbitrary nature of which classes were given buffs.

There's a reason no game bothered to replicate this system. Every competitive game since offers utility spells--temporary buffs that are specific in nature--instead of wide-ranging, all-enhancing passive buffs--why? Because passive buffs are limiting.

Enhancing them further would be the wrong decision.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:45 PM by semadin

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:27 PM
I used to agree with you, because at face-value, it is true that buff potions encroach on self-buffers. But look deeper--why do those classes get self-buffs in the first place? Buffs, being such a volatile enhancement of a character's strength, create huge imbalances between those with them and those without. Why would any attack class, like friar, or ranger, get self-buffs? It's silly, and imbalanced.

Those classes are designed around having those buffs. You make it sound like an addition on top of the class. They require sacrifice of spec points in significant lines to achieve the benefits. This isn't an imbalance against people who don't have them, it's just the classes as they are design vs each other, without external influence.

If you want imbalance, you give self buffing classes the ability to get buffs elsewhere on their own, AND everything they can get from the rest of their spec lines.

Additionally, you give other classes with no self buffs the ability to have all of their abilities, plus buffs, all on their own. This also makes an imbalance against the self buffing classes, who spend valuable spec points that are just countered by a simple potion or item charge.

Buffs should really be built into the class, or you group to get them.

I think the possible reasonable argument for 'lower level' self buffs via potions is that it creates potential for small man v small man when it isn't possible to acquire a buffing class in your group. This still doesn't really fit well with the spirit of the game, but it does create some QoL improvement and makes it possible for more people to enjoy different styles of play...which is important in a game that has the potential to be killed off so easily by low pop.

I don't know what to say about the high value charge buffs...those are kind of ridiculous.

Anyway, this still makes balancing issues for the self buffing classes...but maybe that's just the price to pay.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:51 PM by Isavyr

semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
Those classes are designed around having those buffs. You make it sound like an addition on top of the class. They require sacrifice of spec points in significant lines to achieve the benefits. This isn't an imbalance against people who don't have them, it's just the classes as they are design vs each other, without external influence.

No, they aren't designed around these buffs, they are just a bonus. That's exactly my point.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger (and actually, they both get buffs that are better than all-buffs already, so your premise is incorrect).

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:54 PM by Ashenspire

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:51 PM
semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
Those classes are designed around having those buffs. You make it sound like an addition on top of the class. They require sacrifice of spec points in significant lines to achieve the benefits. This isn't an imbalance against people who don't have them, it's just the classes as they are design vs each other, without external influence.

No, they aren't designed around these buffs, they are just a bonus. That's exactly my point.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger (and actually, they both get buffs that are better than all-buffs already, so your premise is incorrect).

Friar and ranger damage are balanced around the fact that they'll be using those self buffs.

Give everyone else the self buffs, and they fall down in terms of balance. Or, in the rangers case, they completely ignore their unique skill line altogether, which means there's a balance problem with that skill line.

See how that works?

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:56 PM by BisbyHoughton

I definitely would not be opposed to this.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:59 PM by Isavyr

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:54 PM
Friar and ranger damage are balanced around the fact that they'll be using those self buffs.

Give everyone else the self buffs, and they fall down in terms of balance. Or, in the rangers case, they completely ignore their unique skill line altogether, which means there's a balance problem with that skill line.

See how that works?

They aren't designed around these buffs, they are just a bonus.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:00 PM by Ashenspire

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:59 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:54 PM
Friar and ranger damage are balanced around the fact that they'll be using those self buffs.

Give everyone else the self buffs, and they fall down in terms of balance. Or, in the rangers case, they completely ignore their unique skill line altogether, which means there's a balance problem with that skill line.

See how that works?

They aren't designed around these buffs, they are just a bonus.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger.

Ah, so you have no idea what you're talking about. Good to know.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:01 PM by semadin

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:51 PM
semadin wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:45 PM
Those classes are designed around having those buffs. You make it sound like an addition on top of the class. They require sacrifice of spec points in significant lines to achieve the benefits. This isn't an imbalance against people who don't have them, it's just the classes as they are design vs each other, without external influence.

No, they aren't designed around these buffs, they are just a bonus. That's exactly my point.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger (and actually, they both get buffs that are better than all-buffs already, so your premise is incorrect).

I can't speak for the Friar, but in the Ranger case they aren't better on a whole, and pots vs buff line the difference is small, but the important factor there is the severely diminished value of the spec points in PF line.

Speccing a full 40 levels in PF gives you dex/qui that is marginally better than pots (definitely not 40 spec lines worth of points better), and there's no level of PF that is remotely as good self buff wise as charges. Especially in the situation where these buffs are going against those buffs. It's essentially a case of spending 40 spec lines worth of points to have an 8 dex advantage (or 2 RA points btw). That makes no sense.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:04 PM by Isavyr

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:00 PM
Ah, so you have no idea what you're talking about. Good to know.

The typical argument when someone is offended and has no reply to the actual argument. Don't get offended, this is just discussion of a game. I'll repeat earlier point: The friar is still very capable without using his buffs whatsoever. But, as already stated, his buffs are already better than the all-buffs, so the premise of this thread is just incorrect and misguided.

If you want to bring up a specific instance where you think the class is too weak in this landscape with all-buff potions + charges, feel free, but as you'll see, it will be shown it has nothing to do with their buffs.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:05 PM by Ashenspire

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:04 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:00 PM
Ah, so you have no idea what you're talking about. Good to know.

The typical argument when someone is offended and has no reply to the actual argument. Don't get offended, this is just discussion of a game. I'll repeat earlier point: The friar is still very capable without using his buffs whatsoever. But, as already stated, his buffs are already better than the all-buffs, so the premise of this thread is just incorrect and misguided.

If you want to bring up a specific instance where you think the class is too weak in this landscape with all-buff potions + charges, feel free, but as you'll see, it will be shown it has nothing to do with their buffs.

Friars are straight trash without speccing into Enhancement. Thank you for illustrating my earlier conclusion so succinctly.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:18 PM by Pirhana7

Some of the ideas I think would help

For archers move the buffs lines into the archery line so they only need to spec the 1 archery line (scouts would probably need to have them added to them to keep fair kinda like what happened when the archery system was changed and scouts got the buff. basically get the buffs like every did in the new archery system but keep the old archery system. Also just like with the new archery system change the dex/qui buff to the max value 75/75 like it got changed to. This would be in line with Thanes and champs str/con buff and be stronger than charges when the skill line bonus is factored in.

Classes that give group buffs should have those buffs more effective on themselves. For example the Wardens base buffs and Friars base buff should be strong enough on themselves that by the time they get the last red buff it should be enhanced enough to be +26 stat stronger which is the difference of the potions. This would help to balance those classes of what they are losing to enemy classes using potions. The Friars dex/qui would also need to be enhanced but giving +39 on top of it might be over the top.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:23 PM by Isavyr

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:05 PM
Friars are straight trash without speccing into Enhancement. Thank you for illustrating my earlier conclusion so succinctly.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger.

^That is copy-paste by the way. In other words, it was already stated, and I made my statement clear--I never said they shouldn't spec into Enhancement. Please read so we can have a discussion.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:39 PM by Ashenspire

You can copy and paste it as many times as you want. It's still not true.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:50 PM by Isavyr

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
You can copy and paste it as many times as you want. It's still not true.

Many of those self-buffing classes are speccing into their self-buff line, showing that they're getting enough value for it to be worthwhile--and why wouldn't they? Friar gets haste, absorb, fatigue reduction, spec AF if you discount their buffs, which we shouldn't, because their buffs are better than self-buffs. Friar will murder most tanks (that have self-buffs)--they really do not need more buffs. There appears to be a perception problem where people think friars are bad because they aren't grouped. Their problem is group utility, which has nothing to do with this topic.

There's no evidence that there's a problem, and this is because the buffs were given somewhat arbitrarily in the first place and not built into the balance of those classes. If you want to discount all of what's been written, and insist you're right despite no evidence, then we have nothing to discuss.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:03 PM by Ashenspire

Discount their buffs which are better then self buffs but they don't need them because they can wreck tanks?

That entire paragraph contradicted itself.

Friars ARE bad because they're not grouped. That's been known for years.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:08 PM by Isavyr

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:03 PM
Discount their buffs which are better then self buffs but they don't need them because they can wreck tanks?

That entire paragraph contradicted itself.

Friars ARE bad because they're not grouped. That's been known for years.

Their damage and their buffs aren't the problem. It's their utility. It has nothing to do with their buffs.

Friars are strong solo and so-so in group (maybe stronger than I'm aware--they've had many buffs here). There's a thread with suggestions on that if that's specifically your issue.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:12 PM by Dacht

Classes with self buff lines were absolutely designed for the buffing lines to be centric.

Point 1: When these classes were designed buff bots were not a part of the equation, so it was not assumed that all classes would be buffed at all times.

When DAOC classes were designed, buffs were simply a benefit that came with grouping to promote teamwork and to increase synergy. A group of 8 would be stronger than 8 individuals because classes compliment and support one another.

Point 2: Self buffing classes are meant to rely on their buffing lines to offset the fact that they cannot spec as high in each of their other lines.

A class like the infiltrator is instead given enough spec points to pump tons of points into several different lines. Mages typically only need to spec into one line to be viable. Hybrids, are just that, and thus need to spread points. Their self buffs/chants/etc bring them into balance. When all classes have access to the buffs outside of a group setup, they now throw balance out of whack.

Solution: Self spec buffs specced to their max level need to be increased to match buffing classes values. I believe self base buffs already match their same spec counterparts.

Str/Con - 69
Dex/quick - 75

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:15 PM by Ashenspire

Their buffs are a problem.

When a class is balanced around having access to self buffs and other classes not having them, then you all of a sudden give all the other classes access to buffs through alchemy that are almost as good as what you had to spend skill points on, the balance is thrown out the window.

You can't refuse that, regardless of your personal feeling on the issue.

If you give a mercenary and friar the entire collection of buffs from an Enhance Cleric, the mercenary is going to benefit much more, as the friar is balanced around having 5 of the 6 all the time anyway.

They're subpar damage, subpar utility, subpar healing. They literally don't fit anywhere in a group, BECAUSE their self buffs keep them from benefiting from being in a group as much as other classes.

Wed 20 Mar 2019 3:35 AM by Milchschnidde

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:15 PM
Their buffs are a problem.

When a class is balanced around having access to self buffs and other classes not having them, then you all of a sudden give all the other classes access to buffs through alchemy that are almost as good as what you had to spend skill points on, the balance is thrown out the window.

You can't refuse that, regardless of your personal feeling on the issue.

If you give a mercenary and friar the entire collection of buffs from an Enhance Cleric, the mercenary is going to benefit much more, as the friar is balanced around having 5 of the 6 all the time anyway.

They're subpar damage, subpar utility, subpar healing. They literally don't fit anywhere in a group, BECAUSE their self buffs keep them from benefiting from being in a group as much as other classes.

Hey thats part of the game, that counts for warden and bards as well..., in general i guess that thread is more related to ranger and hunters lines, where they loose utility from those lines when fightning other assissins.

Wed 20 Mar 2019 1:57 PM by Horus

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:51 PM
No, they aren't designed around these buffs, they are just a bonus. That's exactly my point.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger (and actually, they both get buffs that are better than all-buffs already, so your premise is incorrect).

You could not be MORE wrong. Classes with self buffs were indeed designed with them because they are lacking in some other attribute to make them battle worthy. It is not some "bonus on top". If you took away all buff potions and charges, and then removed self buffs from buffing classes, they would be exceedingly weak compared to their other archetype classes designed without self buffs. Why do you think buff bots are considered bad? The OP is 100% correct. Pandora's Box is open. Pots and charges overkill. As much as I like my perma sprint buff, this was something unique to Mid. Now I can get it with a couple RPs and cheap potion.

Following the current logic, why not speed pots? Why not stealth pots? Why not pots that let me wield a shield? Why not blade turn pots? If we are going to take away class specific skills/toys and give them to everyone else via pots and charges might as well follow the logic to it's end and minimize every skill line via pots and charges.

Wed 20 Mar 2019 4:24 PM by Sym

Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 1:57 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:51 PM
No, they aren't designed around these buffs, they are just a bonus. That's exactly my point.

The speccing is worth it even with the loss of those buffs in the case of Friar and Ranger (and actually, they both get buffs that are better than all-buffs already, so your premise is incorrect).

You could not be MORE wrong. Classes with self buffs were indeed designed with them because they are lacking in some other attribute to make them battle worthy. It is not some "bonus on top". If you took away all buff potions and charges, and then removed self buffs from buffing classes, they would be exceedingly weak compared to their other archetype classes designed without self buffs. Why do you think buff bots are considered bad? The OP is 100% correct. Pandora's Box is open. Pots and charges overkill. As much as I like my perma sprint buff, this was something unique to Mid. Now I can get it with a couple RPs and cheap potion.

Following the current logic, why not speed pots? Why not stealth pots? Why not pots that let me wield a shield? Why not blade turn pots? If we are going to take away class specific skills/toys and give them to everyone else via pots and charges might as well follow the logic to it's end and minimize every skill line via pots and charges.

I would not have said it better.