Did assassins actually just get BUFFED?

Started 3 Mar 2019
by WeaselSoup
in Tavern
Damage scaling for dual wielding lines was just buffed by at least 20% per point. Assassins are already completely broken on this server due to a ton of indirect buffs and then you just straight buff their damage? Can we get some reasoning as to why this was felt necessary?

edit: Sorry I apparently didn't mention where to find the changes. If you type /servernews you can see the most recent patch notes which haven't been posted on the forums.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:34 PM by Dominus
where was this mentioned? I dont see any updates on patch notes since 11 Feb.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:40 PM by Magesty
Assassins are too strong here, no question, but I haven’t seen any buffs either.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:43 PM by Afuldan
WeaselSoup wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:36 AM
Damage scaling for dual wielding lines was just buffed by at least 20% per point. Assassins are already completely broken on this server due to a ton of indirect buffs and then you just straight buff their damage? Can we get some reasoning as to why this was felt necessary?

Uhm, where were the lines buffed? 20% per point is a 5000% increase at 50, which I doubt.

Edit: are you one of the people who had the SC overcharge bug, and had your template wiped?
Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:49 PM by Warlay
too strong ? yes only with this poison [edit - Language] the dmg without needs to be buffed slightly
Sun 3 Mar 2019 4:01 PM by Halma
Dominus wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 3:34 PM
where was this mentioned? I dont see any updates on patch notes since 11 Feb.

I think he refers to the /servernews
Sun 3 Mar 2019 4:23 PM by relvinian
dual wield got buffed. the 2nd weapon does more dmg and has higher chance to swing.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 4:46 PM by Afuldan
relvinian wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 4:23 PM
dual wield got buffed. the 2nd weapon does more dmg and has higher chance to swing.

Be nice to see this on the forum. Good to know. Not sure if BM or Merc needed it but ok.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:39 PM by Stoertebecker
It has a light comedy touch that they raised dual wield where nobody asked for, and archers are still underperforming with their bow.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 8:19 PM by Kaedius
Stoertebecker wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
It has a light comedy touch that they raised dual wield where nobody asked for, and archers are still underperforming with their bow.

Maybe after they tested the changes they made to archers internally, archers were out-performing assassins just a tad and this is a preemptive small change they wanted to implement before unleashing their buff to the archers!

Just providing an optimistic outlook
Sun 3 Mar 2019 8:28 PM by Quik
Kaedius wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 8:19 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
It has a light comedy touch that they raised dual wield where nobody asked for, and archers are still underperforming with their bow.

Maybe after they tested the changes they made to archers internally, archers were out-performing assassins just a tad and this is a preemptive small change they wanted to implement before unleashing their buff to the archers!

Just providing an optimistic outlook

I was thinking this.

Apparently all the outrage about archers getting ganked by assassins was not a real thing, and assassins needed this change for them to compete...

LOL sorry I am still trying to figure this one out. Solo assassins were already everywhere in frontiers, it is going to be insane now.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:23 PM by Numatic
Stoertebecker wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
It has a light comedy touch that they raised dual wield where nobody asked for, and archers are still underperforming with their bow.

I am being hit by archers non crit on my svg for 300-400 a pop and being crit shot for 600ish. How is that underperforming? My brothers skald is being hit for nearly the same in chain armor. My NS is being hit by hunters for 200+ on their spear and scouts mangle me with shield slam if my purge isnt up. And if it is they get IP which swings the fight a LOT closer in their favor and I have lost as much as I won in a 1v1 melee fight.

I honestly dont get where this "buff archers" thing is coming from.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:38 PM by florin
There are a surprisingly high number of Lower rank sneaks running around unbuffed and untemplated. Some are not aware of their options and unfortunately are fodder. One example - there was a shadowblade -RR3 hanging out on a keep climb point. I don’t know for how long because I simply saw her and one shot her with PA. Still not clear if she was naked, didn’t look like she was sitting. But a 1100+ hit on a 50 mid leather wearer might seem OP. But when these lower ranks are easier to achieve, you’ll get rog tenplates out there all the time.

Could also be she was getting ready to suicide and was taking off her armor?
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:49 PM by Ganil
I don't know. With purge and IP against a sin with purge UP, my scout can only deal about 40% damage with 42 shield and 41 thrust to a sin.
It's not even close. If their purge is down and my tools are up I win maybe 50% unless they're low ranks.

For bow damage it feels that it should do 10 to 20% more damage to me. The crit cap is correct, but the critshot for 500-650 on almost evey class feels a bit wrong.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:59 PM by SaintRon
On the Midgard side LA is(was now?) seen as complete trash. It's depressing how people view it. It's actually damage wise comparable to CD/DW, but it got nerfed a little too much for 1.65 because it lost utility also.

In addition to this Mercs and blademasters are not popular on this server at all. Even if you assume some other classes are bots, boxes etc that have not been banned yet (good job btw folks!).

So for on the MDPS side of things something had to be done because the server is odd in terms of class make up (Alb being the strangest). All 3 sides are caster, buffer heavy. Melee and stealthers were much more popular in the game's glory days.


I think assassins just got caught up in it. Is that an issue? I don't know... but assassins weren't super popular in terms of numbers so maybe we're fine.

TLDR - MDPS needed some kind of buff; assassins got buffed in the process. Is this a problem? I don't know - although SBs on the Midgard side are seen as weak (popular opinion anyhow).
Sun 3 Mar 2019 10:02 PM by WeaselSoup
> but assassins weren't super popular in terms of numbers so maybe we're fine.

lol
Sun 3 Mar 2019 10:03 PM by Ganil
I agree with you, but sins are seen as seen as very good anyway and while it's probably justified for mdps, it's like a bit odd to see them being buffed when they don't need it at all.

For the shadowblade, he's seen as the worst of the 3 in the stealthwar. He's still extremely potent imo. The others are just even better.

Anyway, what make sins good atm is their poison, strong detection and vanish so I don't think this buff change them that much :p.
Sun 3 Mar 2019 10:14 PM by Victos
Numatic wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:23 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
It has a light comedy touch that they raised dual wield where nobody asked for, and archers are still underperforming with their bow.

I am being hit by archers non crit on my svg for 300-400 a pop and being crit shot for 600ish. How is that underperforming? My brothers skald is being hit for nearly the same in chain armor. My NS is being hit by hunters for 200+ on their spear and scouts mangle me with shield slam if my purge isnt up. And if it is they get IP which swings the fight a LOT closer in their favor and I have lost as much as I won in a 1v1 melee fight.

I honestly dont get where this "buff archers" thing is coming from.

Just because you've lost as many fights as you've won against the worst archer in the game doesn't mean they aren't the worst or even bad in general. It could also mean you aren't playing to your full potential.

In fact I can't even think of a situation where a scout would even barely win against a properly played assassin. Like seriously, there is no way you're properly switching poisons and not win every single fight when purge is up.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:03 AM by Stoertebecker
Numatic wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:23 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
It has a light comedy touch that they raised dual wield where nobody asked for, and archers are still underperforming with their bow.

I am being hit by archers non crit on my svg for 300-400 a pop and being crit shot for 600ish. How is that underperforming? My brothers skald is being hit for nearly the same in chain armor. My NS is being hit by hunters for 200+ on their spear and scouts mangle me with shield slam if my purge isnt up. And if it is they get IP which swings the fight a LOT closer in their favor and I have lost as much as I won in a 1v1 melee fight.

I honestly dont get where this "buff archers" thing is coming from.

For how many damage was your NS hit by the hunter with his bow? If he lands a bow shot on you i`d say...l2p
If you`ve got hit on your savage 5 times for 3-400 and died...l2p

Sorry, your examples are not a mirror of what is happening ingame.

Assassins were already performing well against nearly all other classes and got a dual wield buff...why?
Thats the simple question...why?
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:38 AM by phixion
Quik wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 8:28 PM
LOL sorry I am still trying to figure this one out. Solo assassins were already everywhere in frontiers, it is going to be insane now.

Yes, INSANE.

Because if you actually look at how many stealthers are in frontiers every night, it barely breaks 20-30 per realm. That's nothing in comparison to the zerg we have to dodge.

Stoertebecker wrote: Assassins were already performing well against nearly all other classes and got a dual wield buff...why?
Thats the simple question...why?

Because LA was hitting for 20-30 damage even with 44-50 LA spec? There was a reason people were not going LA, you could put 50 points into it and damage barely increased. Almost every assassin was CS spec.

I like the change, LA is viable again. I prefer the playstyle of LA.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:40 AM by relvinian
Good news is that they won't have to use vanish as often.

I once attacked a ns and an sb and had them both instantly vanish.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:16 AM by Numatic
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:03 AM
Numatic wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:23 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 7:39 PM
It has a light comedy touch that they raised dual wield where nobody asked for, and archers are still underperforming with their bow.

I am being hit by archers non crit on my svg for 300-400 a pop and being crit shot for 600ish. How is that underperforming? My brothers skald is being hit for nearly the same in chain armor. My NS is being hit by hunters for 200+ on their spear and scouts mangle me with shield slam if my purge isnt up. And if it is they get IP which swings the fight a LOT closer in their favor and I have lost as much as I won in a 1v1 melee fight.

I honestly dont get where this "buff archers" thing is coming from.

For how many damage was your NS hit by the hunter with his bow? If he lands a bow shot on you i`d say...l2p
If you`ve got hit on your savage 5 times for 3-400 and died...l2p

Sorry, your examples are not a mirror of what is happening ingame.

Assassins were already performing well against nearly all other classes and got a dual wield buff...why?
Thats the simple question...why?

L2p against a range class as a pure melee? Right since it's so easy for a svg to close distance against a 2k range scout...also it's not impossible to land a bow shot on an assasin once visible. My references were to straight 1v1 melee fights on my NS. That's without perf. I have 4 extra weapons on him currently so no I'm not spamming poisons ever hit (imho that [edit - Language] needs to be removed from the game) .
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:21 AM by defiasbandit
Archers are well balanced, apart from their lack of stealth detection.

Why can't Assassins be in line with Archers?
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:26 AM by Cirath
relvinian wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:40 AM
Good news is that they won't have to use vanish as often.

I once attacked a ns and an sb and had them both instantly vanish.

Sounds like a solid use of vanish by both of them. They live to fight another day, and necro leeches zero RP's off their fight.

Vanish is worth it just to piss off the zerg when they miss out on free rp's.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:15 AM by Quik
phixion wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:38 AM
Quik wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 8:28 PM
LOL sorry I am still trying to figure this one out. Solo assassins were already everywhere in frontiers, it is going to be insane now.

Yes, INSANE.

Because if you actually look at how many stealthers are in frontiers every night, it barely breaks 20-30 per realm. That's nothing in comparison to the zerg we have to dodge.

Stoertebecker wrote: Assassins were already performing well against nearly all other classes and got a dual wield buff...why?
Thats the simple question...why?

Because LA was hitting for 20-30 damage even with 44-50 LA spec? There was a reason people were not going LA, you could put 50 points into it and damage barely increased. Almost every assassin was CS spec.

I like the change, LA is viable again. I prefer the playstyle of LA.

You need to learn to read numbers...

/serverinfo at 8pm PST has 68 NS / 58 SB / 49 Infi…

Every single one of them is in the top third of played classes....

Where did you even get this 20 per realm number? Try actual stats and don't make numbers up plz
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:20 AM by Stoertebecker
phixion wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:38 AM
Quik wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 8:28 PM
LOL sorry I am still trying to figure this one out. Solo assassins were already everywhere in frontiers, it is going to be insane now.

Yes, INSANE.

Because if you actually look at how many stealthers are in frontiers every night, it barely breaks 20-30 per realm. That's nothing in comparison to the zerg we have to dodge.

Stoertebecker wrote: Assassins were already performing well against nearly all other classes and got a dual wield buff...why?
Thats the simple question...why?

Because LA was hitting for 20-30 damage even with 44-50 LA spec? There was a reason people were not going LA, you could put 50 points into it and damage barely increased. Almost every assassin was CS spec.

I like the change, LA is viable again. I prefer the playstyle of LA.

Your SB isn`t the only class with LA or dual wield.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:37 AM by Stoertebecker
Numatic wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:16 AM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:03 AM
Numatic wrote:
Sun 3 Mar 2019 9:23 PM
I am being hit by archers non crit on my svg for 300-400 a pop and being crit shot for 600ish. How is that underperforming? My brothers skald is being hit for nearly the same in chain armor. My NS is being hit by hunters for 200+ on their spear and scouts mangle me with shield slam if my purge isnt up. And if it is they get IP which swings the fight a LOT closer in their favor and I have lost as much as I won in a 1v1 melee fight.

I honestly dont get where this "buff archers" thing is coming from.

For how many damage was your NS hit by the hunter with his bow? If he lands a bow shot on you i`d say...l2p
If you`ve got hit on your savage 5 times for 3-400 and died...l2p

Sorry, your examples are not a mirror of what is happening ingame.

Assassins were already performing well against nearly all other classes and got a dual wield buff...why?
Thats the simple question...why?

L2p against a range class as a pure melee? Right since it's so easy for a svg to close distance against a 2k range scout...also it's not impossible to land a bow shot on an assasin once visible. My references were to straight 1v1 melee fights on my NS. That's without perf. I have 4 extra weapons on him currently so no I'm not spamming poisons ever hit (imho that shit needs to be removed from the game) .

You`re mixing up different things, play a hunter (solo) and you know what i mean.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:10 AM by WeaselSoup
This terrible argument of "its okay we're op because we have to dodge zergs" needs to stop. It has absolutely nothing to do with why the classes should be OP. There are plenty of solo's who play VISIBLE and are able to dodge zergs or get gangbanged way more than you. We don't get constant buffs and overtune on this server ontop of our main weakness not existing in the game.

You have the opportunity to choose your battles, if you get zerged you made a bad decision it's part of the territory and the idea you need to be able to kill everyone within creeping death stun or it's unfair is just absurd. Come up with a real argument, oh right you don't have one? got it.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:31 PM by phixion
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:15 AM
You need to learn to read numbers...

/serverinfo at 8pm PST has 68 NS / 58 SB / 49 Infi…

Every single one of them is in the top third of played classes....

Where did you even get this 20 per realm number? Try actual stats and don't make numbers up plz

I'm talking about stealthers active in RvR every day. Use /u to get a better grasp of the numbers, Mid sit at 20-25 stealthers, Alb at 25-30 and Hib at 30-40+ most of prime time. This includes archers as well as assassins. Not a great amount when you consider the amount of zerging that goes on.

WeaselSoup wrote: This terrible argument of "its okay we're op because we have to dodge zergs" needs to stop. It has absolutely nothing to do with why the classes should be OP. There are plenty of solo's who play VISIBLE and are able to dodge zergs or get gangbanged way more than you. We don't get constant buffs and overtune on this server ontop of our main weakness not existing in the game.

You have the opportunity to choose your battles, if you get zerged you made a bad decision it's part of the territory and the idea you need to be able to kill everyone within creeping death stun or it's unfair is just absurd. Come up with a real argument, oh right you don't have one? got it.

That's a strawman argument right there, nobody is saying that. Stealthers are not overpowered, they just have a way of rubbing people the wrong way, they are opportunists and take advantage of people playing badly.

What constant buffs are you referring to? We've had ONE buff to our offhand damage, which seems reasonable considering it was utter crap before. Notice very few SBs bothered speccing LA and 99% of them were CS spec, this was because garrote spam did more damage than Doublefrost spam, even though the left axe barely hit with garrote spam.

Getting zerged here goes along with playing on the server, as does you getting owned by a stealther... Don't blame the stealther, if you had stayed with the zerg you most likely wouldn't have been targeted to begin with.

People complain about how OP stealthers are, yet the majority have never played one. If you had, you'd know there is plenty of downtime between fights, lots of standing watching zergs, lots of getting steamrolled every time you jump someone, lots of walking in to stealth zergs whilst solo, lots of reasons not to play a stealther--as is shown by the numbers of active stealthers in RvR. Don't believe me? Use /u and see for yourself. Compare stealth numbers to the rest of the population in RvR.

Sorry my 20 extra damage per swing on my offhand hurts you so much, lol. But damn I'm having fun with LA spec, a spec I always wanted to play but was never able to due to it being so bad.

This servers rules tend to push people towards playing stealthers, you've got a constant zerg to work around, group elitism, as well as hib amnesia absolutely destroying small man. Unless something changes, I see more and more stealthers appearing.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:48 PM by Horus
I play a Ranger and I don't want this. Even though hunters and scouts consistently win in straight up melee I don't care, whatever. I accept the fact that is going to happen. It is assassins that are BS. They already win 100% time and see you before you can see them. As some stated, maybe this is to offset some incoming help for high bow spec damage. That doesn't matter...it's not like you can get bow shots on assassins anyway before they see you 1st. Through my RvR experience I see no real world justification for this change.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:05 PM by WeaselSoup
phixion wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:31 PM
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:15 AM
You need to learn to read numbers...

/serverinfo at 8pm PST has 68 NS / 58 SB / 49 Infi…

Every single one of them is in the top third of played classes....

Where did you even get this 20 per realm number? Try actual stats and don't make numbers up plz

I'm talking about stealthers active in RvR every day. Use /u to get a better grasp of the numbers, Mid sit at 20-25 stealthers, Alb at 25-30 and Hib at 30-40+ most of prime time. This includes archers as well as assassins. Not a great amount when you consider the amount of zerging that goes on.

WeaselSoup wrote: This terrible argument of "its okay we're op because we have to dodge zergs" needs to stop. It has absolutely nothing to do with why the classes should be OP. There are plenty of solo's who play VISIBLE and are able to dodge zergs or get gangbanged way more than you. We don't get constant buffs and overtune on this server ontop of our main weakness not existing in the game.

You have the opportunity to choose your battles, if you get zerged you made a bad decision it's part of the territory and the idea you need to be able to kill everyone within creeping death stun or it's unfair is just absurd. Come up with a real argument, oh right you don't have one? got it.

That's a strawman argument right there, nobody is saying that. Stealthers are not overpowered, they just have a way of rubbing people the wrong way, they are opportunists and take advantage of people playing badly.

What constant buffs are you referring to? We've had ONE buff to our offhand damage, which seems reasonable considering it was utter crap before. Notice very few SBs bothered speccing LA and 99% of them were CS spec, this was because garrote spam did more damage than Doublefrost spam, even though the left axe barely hit with garrote spam.

Getting zerged here goes along with playing on the server, as does you getting owned by a stealther... Don't blame the stealther, if you had stayed with the zerg you most likely wouldn't have been targeted to begin with.

People complain about how OP stealthers are, yet the majority have never played one. If you had, you'd know there is plenty of downtime between fights, lots of standing watching zergs, lots of getting steamrolled every time you jump someone, lots of walking in to stealth zergs whilst solo, lots of reasons not to play a stealther--as is shown by the numbers of active stealthers in RvR. Don't believe me? Use /u and see for yourself. Compare stealth numbers to the rest of the population in RvR.

Sorry my 20 extra damage per swing on my offhand hurts you so much, lol. But damn I'm having fun with LA spec, a spec I always wanted to play but was never able to due to it being so bad.

This servers rules tend to push people towards playing stealthers, you've got a constant zerg to work around, group elitism, as well as hib amnesia absolutely destroying small man. Unless something changes, I see more and more stealthers appearing.

It is not a strawman argument, people have literally made this same argument multiple times in this thread. They are denying that assassins are OP and using that as a terrible justification for it. read the damn thread instead of typing a book.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:11 PM by Aervine
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:15 AM
You need to learn to read numbers...

/serverinfo at 8pm PST has 68 NS / 58 SB / 49 Infi…

Every single one of them is in the top third of played classes....

Where did you even get this 20 per realm number? Try actual stats and don't make numbers up plz

Use /serverinfo 50, last night around similar time as you quoted there were only ~30 of each lvl 50 assassin online. You would have to do /who's to get location info to see if they are or are not out in RvR.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:33 PM by Kyosji
Meanwhile my Inf is still struggling to kill an orange.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:43 PM by Quik
Aervine wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:11 PM
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:15 AM
You need to learn to read numbers...

/serverinfo at 8pm PST has 68 NS / 58 SB / 49 Infi…

Every single one of them is in the top third of played classes....

Where did you even get this 20 per realm number? Try actual stats and don't make numbers up plz

Use /serverinfo 50, last night around similar time as you quoted there were only ~30 of each lvl 50 assassin online. You would have to do /who's to get location info to see if they are or are not out in RvR.

I am not talking about who is just RvRing at that particular time, I am referring to this change and how many people are going to jump on stealthers and take advantage of it. As I said, this is going to increase the amount of stealthers a LOT.

And as for numbers...I ran /serverinfo for about 3 hours last night from 8PM-11PM PST and those numbers never changed so I have no idea where you got your numbers from...

Also in game right now at 8AM PST the numbers are only a little less...or do you just happen to be on and want to say it is much less?

I knew I should have screen shotted it then but oh well
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:49 PM by Warlay
la change is really good and was necessary. The problem is like i mentioned before in this thread that the poison should be nerfed that its not spammable, it's just a lame gamestyle anyway.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:50 PM by Aervine
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:43 PM
Aervine wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:11 PM
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:15 AM
You need to learn to read numbers...

/serverinfo at 8pm PST has 68 NS / 58 SB / 49 Infi…

Every single one of them is in the top third of played classes....

Where did you even get this 20 per realm number? Try actual stats and don't make numbers up plz

Use /serverinfo 50, last night around similar time as you quoted there were only ~30 of each lvl 50 assassin online. You would have to do /who's to get location info to see if they are or are not out in RvR.

I am not talking about who is just RvRing at that particular time, I am referring to this change and how many people are going to jump on stealthers and take advantage of it. As I said, this is going to increase the amount of stealthers a LOT.

And as for numbers...I ran /serverinfo for about 3 hours last night from 8PM-11PM PST and those numbers never changed so I have no idea where you got your numbers from...

Also in game right now at 8AM PST the numbers are only a little less...or do you just happen to be on and want to say it is much less?

I knew I should have screen shotted it then but oh well

Again we are talking about the difference between total number of assassins which is the number you are saying and the total number of level 50 assassins which is the number I am saying. Yes this buff may increase the number of assassins out there but you say you aren't talking about who is RvRing. If you aren't concerned about the assassins that are RvRing why are you concerned about this change? Unless the total number of assassins actively RvRing increases drastically you aren't likely to notice much difference.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:51 PM by Afuldan
Warlay wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:49 PM
la change is really good and was necessary. The problem is like i mentioned before in this thread that the poison should be nerfed that its not spammable, it's just a lame gamestyle anyway.

This is the real problem. Viper 5’d poisons that can be refreshed every hit? GTFO with that shit.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:56 PM by Quik
Aervine wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:50 PM
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:43 PM
Aervine wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:11 PM
Use /serverinfo 50, last night around similar time as you quoted there were only ~30 of each lvl 50 assassin online. You would have to do /who's to get location info to see if they are or are not out in RvR.

I am not talking about who is just RvRing at that particular time, I am referring to this change and how many people are going to jump on stealthers and take advantage of it. As I said, this is going to increase the amount of stealthers a LOT.

And as for numbers...I ran /serverinfo for about 3 hours last night from 8PM-11PM PST and those numbers never changed so I have no idea where you got your numbers from...

Also in game right now at 8AM PST the numbers are only a little less...or do you just happen to be on and want to say it is much less?

I knew I should have screen shotted it then but oh well

Again we are talking about the difference between total number of assassins which is the number you are saying and the total number of level 50 assassins which is the number I am saying. Yes this buff may increase the number of assassins out there but you say you aren't talking about who is RvRing. If you aren't concerned about the assassins that are RvRing why are you concerned about this change? Unless the total number of assassins actively RvRing increases drastically you aren't likely to notice much difference.

Because all these 1-49 assassins are going to be RvRing very soon...ar at least a good chunk of them.

Just because they aren't 50 today doesn't mean they wont be 50 tomorrow...

My post simply stated that the number of assassins that would be RvRing would be insane...

I have a strong feeling you are going to see a huge influx of assassins over the next week as people get them lvled and templated.

It has already increased drastically since porting is allowed and this will only amplify that number.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:11 PM by djegu
Afuldan wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:51 PM
Warlay wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:49 PM
la change is really good and was necessary. The problem is like i mentioned before in this thread that the poison should be nerfed that its not spammable, it's just a lame gamestyle anyway.

This is the real problem. Viper 5’d poisons that can be refreshed every hit? GTFO with that shit.

The issue lie in the poison itself, body, matter and energy dot can be stacked, it's like using cold pbaoe and then using heat DD for wizz, should it be nerfed too ? Apparently viper 5 only apply to lifeban, didn't tested it so i can't confirm but a high rr NS told me that, as far I know, very few NS use viper, maybe inf use it more, idk.

Regarding that poison you said refresh every hit, it's called a proc, every melee can have it, you can have multiple weapon in your inv with dot/proc on it, for exemple in hib thrust and slash can have a weapon from galladoria with Energy dot on it, and a matter proc can be added to a crafted weapon. Also every class can use the /switch command.
Also people shouldn't use SoS it's a lame game style, also people shouldn't use Ichor it's a lame game style, also DB shouldn't be allowed in rvr it's a lame game style, also mid shouldn't use that instant stun it's a lame game style anyway, you get my point ?
The only thing that should be nerfed for assassin is Vanish, and also they must increase stealth detection for archer.

Just a friendly reminder that what is stated above is just my point of view, I might totally be wrong and i'm willing to change my point of view if strong arguments are put into the table. Also I have both a NS and a visi class, so I understand the rant of both side.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:18 PM by phixion
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:56 PM
Aervine wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:50 PM
Quik wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:43 PM
I am not talking about who is just RvRing at that particular time, I am referring to this change and how many people are going to jump on stealthers and take advantage of it. As I said, this is going to increase the amount of stealthers a LOT.

And as for numbers...I ran /serverinfo for about 3 hours last night from 8PM-11PM PST and those numbers never changed so I have no idea where you got your numbers from...

Also in game right now at 8AM PST the numbers are only a little less...or do you just happen to be on and want to say it is much less?

I knew I should have screen shotted it then but oh well

Again we are talking about the difference between total number of assassins which is the number you are saying and the total number of level 50 assassins which is the number I am saying. Yes this buff may increase the number of assassins out there but you say you aren't talking about who is RvRing. If you aren't concerned about the assassins that are RvRing why are you concerned about this change? Unless the total number of assassins actively RvRing increases drastically you aren't likely to notice much difference.

Because all these 1-49 assassins are going to be RvRing very soon...ar at least a good chunk of them.

Just because they aren't 50 today doesn't mean they wont be 50 tomorrow...

My post simply stated that the number of assassins that would be RvRing would be insane...

I have a strong feeling you are going to see a huge influx of assassins over the next week as people get them lvled and templated.

It has already increased drastically since porting is allowed and this will only amplify that number.

You've twice asked where I got my numbers... type /u in game and you will see.

Current numbers: 29 albs / 26 mids / 35 hibs.

As you will see, it seem to be a trend that Midgard is underpopulated when it comes to stealthers. The 10-20 extra damage a swing on LA isn't changing anything.

And yes, stealth numbers may increase, there is a big buffer to work with considering less than 100 stealthers RvR at any time as it stands.

Look at my last post regarding reasoning for playing stealthers.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:37 PM by DinoTriz
I was thinking of creating a stealther because of the fact that I can't seem to get any RVR groups with both 50s I leveled, so I might as well solo.

The buff actually made me switch back to my Berserker. It feels more powerful than my Savage now.

But since I suck at making friends, I suppose it's assassin time for me.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:58 PM by phixion
6pm GMT:

Alb 47
Mid 27
Hib 40

Total 114 stealthers online right now, at UK primetime.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 7:00 PM by Ganil
Don't forget to mention that it's probably during TG raid with mid having 41% bonus rp while having the most player online.
At least now 1 hour later.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 7:11 PM by Joc
Hardly anyone uses viper. Its been nerfed down to 40% increase (huge ra cost) at max level. If an assassin is using viper he's an idiot IMO.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by phixion
Ganil wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 7:00 PM
Don't forget to mention that it's probably during TG raid with mid having 41% bonus rp while having the most player online.
At least now 1 hour later.

no, that started 30 mins later.

8pm GMT, 111 stealthers in RvR.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:19 PM by Ganil
A lot of them are albs. I used to think that minstrel were not included but now I'm not so sure anymore xD.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM by Yint
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:14 PM by sabyrtuth
Coming from a nightshade please nerf the dot, make it not overwrite so it can't be re-applied until the ticks have worn off or purged. This is the one argument sin haters have a good stand on.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:39 PM by Nightwish
Yint wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.

I am sorry but this is “inaccurate” information.

There is no such thing as getting “double ticks” from poisons. AT BEST, and this is sacrificing a lot of MH weapon dmg, you could get to swing speed cap and /switch at every swing to have the dot tick faster by refreshing it every swing. HOWEVER, by /switching every swing you effectively reset your swing and not be able to take advantage of reactionary styles. For example, if I /switch after I dodge an attack, I can’t do off evade styles as I just effectively reset my swing by switching.

It’s very gimmicky and not any more “unbalanced” then most other things in game like savage dmg, slam/swap to 2H, etc.
Mon 4 Mar 2019 11:27 PM by Stoertebecker
Nightwish wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:39 PM
Yint wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.

I am sorry but this is “inaccurate” information.

THOWEVER, by /switching every swing you effectively reset your swing and not be able to take advantage of reactionary styles.

And thats the point, you don`t need reac. styles, just reapply poisons with every swing . And if it`s getting too close just vanish or baf.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 12:20 AM by Pops999
Kyosji wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
Meanwhile my Inf is still struggling to kill an orange.

My caster's heart bleeds for you. I won't touch an orange solo, the resists will kill me.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:14 AM by Yint
Nightwish wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:39 PM
Yint wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.

I am sorry but this is “inaccurate” information.

There is no such thing as getting “double ticks” from poisons. AT BEST, and this is sacrificing a lot of MH weapon dmg, you could get to swing speed cap and /switch at every swing to have the dot tick faster by refreshing it every swing. HOWEVER, by /switching every swing you effectively reset your swing and not be able to take advantage of reactionary styles. For example, if I /switch after I dodge an attack, I can’t do off evade styles as I just effectively reset my swing by switching.

It’s very gimmicky and not any more “unbalanced” then most other things in game like savage dmg, slam/swap to 2H, etc.

Nah man, the double tick is when a poison is applied, it does damage, then it does second tick, then you reapply another poison and it does initial tick again, which is 1 single dot tick then a double tick from reapplying after the 2nd dot tick. Its not innaccurate. Even 2 poisoned weapons swinging at once both applying initial dot ticks are double ticks.

[00:00]assassin swings with his sword1 for 5 damage!
[00:00]you are poisoned!
[00:00]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:00]assassin swings with his sword2 for 5 damage!
[00:00]you are poisoned!
[00:00]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:02]assassin swings with his sword1 for 5 damage!
[00:02]You are poisoned!
[00:02]you are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:02]You block assassin sword2 attack (25%)
[00:04]You parry assassin sword1 attack (30%)
[00:04]You block assassin sword2 attack (25%)
[00:06]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:06]assassin swings with his sword1 for 5 damage!
[00:06]You are poisoned!
[00:06]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:06]assassin swings with his sword2 for 5 damage!
[00:06]You are poisoned!
[00:06]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!


Double lifebane poison tick at 00:00 seconds from swinging 2 weapons, Triple lifebane poison tick at 00:06 Seconds from existing poison and double poison application from double swing, This is what im referring to.

BTW the toughest assassins on the server are just using cap speed weapons , neglecting weapon damage for the most part as you said. It is far higher dps to swing faster and swap every 1.5s. You could even time your swing speed to get those "double ticks" every other round of swinging if you were a SB with guaranteed left hand swings every round.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:49 AM by Joc
Yint wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.

Never needed /switch back in the day to weapon swap in poisons. I still don't use it now. Its easier to drag and drop weapons for me. I don't even dot my first 2 weapons. Disease and WS/con first, then dot, dot, dot, and throw in a snare for mobile classes.

The dot ticking on first hit has been in since beta and has been an intended mechanic. I do feel that all the different dot procs (matter, body, and another I forget which type) stacking are a bit too powerful at times though.

Just my 2 cents worth. I play assassins and visible both.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:55 AM by Joc
Nightwish wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:39 PM
Yint wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.

I am sorry but this is “inaccurate” information.

There is no such thing as getting “double ticks” from poisons. AT BEST, and this is sacrificing a lot of MH weapon dmg, you could get to swing speed cap and /switch at every swing to have the dot tick faster by refreshing it every swing. HOWEVER, by /switching every swing you effectively reset your swing and not be able to take advantage of reactionary styles. For example, if I /switch after I dodge an attack, I can’t do off evade styles as I just effectively reset my swing by switching.

It’s very gimmicky and not any more “unbalanced” then most other things in game like savage dmg, slam/swap to 2H, etc.

Incorrect. You can do reactionaries just fine if you're quick (and most sins are) enough. I switch weapons 8 times in a fight typically. Disease, WS/con, snare, dotx5. If they purge I also have another disease and WS/con in my second pack. There have been fights I use 10 weapons and don't miss a single reactionary. I don't use /switch either. I drag and drop weapons on the paperdoll. Its very easy to do if you are quick and have organized packs.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:13 AM by Yint
Joc wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:49 AM
Yint wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.

Never needed /switch back in the day to weapon swap in poisons. I still don't use it now. Its easier to drag and drop weapons for me. I don't even dot my first 2 weapons. Disease and WS/con first, then dot, dot, dot, and throw in a snare for mobile classes.

The dot ticking on first hit has been in since beta and has been an intended mechanic. I do feel that all the different dot procs (matter, body, and another I forget which type) stacking are a bit too powerful at times though.

Just my 2 cents worth. I play assassins and visible both.

Dragging and dropping is how it was supposed to be played, i doubt you can do 25 swaps in 40 seconds though like the macros are able to. Thats the problem, if people were actually dragging that stuff it would be a non issue.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:07 AM by Victos
This is exactly what I meant by saying "there is no way an assassin loses a 1v1 against a scout if properly played" I would even go as far and remove the words "against a scout" in that sentence.

You can literally play an assassin like a paladin switching his chants. Put switch macros all over your qbars, put qbar-switch macros at the end and roll your fingers like an old school paladin.

And the information regarding reactionary styles was indeed wrong, I'm able to use reactionaries just fine using exactly this technique.

1. Hit the styles
2. wait for the swing
3. roll fingers to switch 2 new weapons in
4. Back to 1

I've tested this with my very first SB on this server, the usual thid spec was absolutely underwhelming so I thought I might test how abusable the switch macros are.

So I went and killed a yellow mob at 24 without high poisons and my hp bar went quite far down. I then went on and bought a bunch of very fast- level 1 - weapons, yes grey weapons, and applied lvl appropriate poisons to them. Granted my weapon damage was absolute garbage because of the weapons, yellows died in seconds without much of a fight.

Oh and did I mention reapplying all those poisons is easy aswell?

So yeah, while experienced assassins would switch poisons like mad (I was one of those guys back in the days) the switch macro makes it so easy that even the worst player on earth could dump poisons all day and autowin most fights. On top of that there is simply no way anyone switches 2 weapons every 1.5 seconds by hand. With these macros? It's just rolling some fingers.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:15 AM by Warlay
sabyrtuth wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:14 PM
Coming from a nightshade please nerf the dot, make it not overwrite so it can't be re-applied until the ticks have worn off or purged. This is the one argument sin haters have a good stand on.

sign from a sb
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:32 AM by jelzinga_EU
Playing a SB I'm all for removing the lifebane reapply tactic which makes the frequency of lifebane ticks equal to weapon-speed. It is stupid, it is overpowered and it is frustrating for the victims.

It also causes a lot of outrage about every change to LA/CD/DW as you can see and it is one of the reasons why assassins can sometimes dispose of enemy tanks so easily.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:41 AM by Cadebrennus
Yint wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:14 AM
Nightwish wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:39 PM
Yint wrote:
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:47 PM
Lifebane should not damage on first tick if the target already has lifebane poison on them. This imo should be the fix to the insane powercreep of /switch on assassins.

As a hero that often solos and looks for stealthers, when i run into a perfectly macro'd /switch assassin they are using 16-24 poisons usually in a fight against me. I will have to use purge to get rid of debuffs, (which are only then reapplied by decent assassins easily using a secondary debuff /switch set), Debuffs alone bring hero down to something like 60% hp, then the poison swapping every swing starts. The poison reapplying and getting double ticks between apply and reapply is by far the majority of their damage against me.

I had a fight lastnight where I used Moose+IP against a shadowblade and watching 24+ poisons being applied in 37 seconds. Over 4000 damage dealt to me and 70% of it was through lifebane/dot spam.

I am sorry but this is “inaccurate” information.

There is no such thing as getting “double ticks” from poisons. AT BEST, and this is sacrificing a lot of MH weapon dmg, you could get to swing speed cap and /switch at every swing to have the dot tick faster by refreshing it every swing. HOWEVER, by /switching every swing you effectively reset your swing and not be able to take advantage of reactionary styles. For example, if I /switch after I dodge an attack, I can’t do off evade styles as I just effectively reset my swing by switching.

It’s very gimmicky and not any more “unbalanced” then most other things in game like savage dmg, slam/swap to 2H, etc.

Nah man, the double tick is when a poison is applied, it does damage, then it does second tick, then you reapply another poison and it does initial tick again, which is 1 single dot tick then a double tick from reapplying after the 2nd dot tick. Its not innaccurate. Even 2 poisoned weapons swinging at once both applying initial dot ticks are double ticks.

[00:00]assassin swings with his sword1 for 5 damage!
[00:00]you are poisoned!
[00:00]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:00]assassin swings with his sword2 for 5 damage!
[00:00]you are poisoned!
[00:00]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:02]assassin swings with his sword1 for 5 damage!
[00:02]You are poisoned!
[00:02]you are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:02]You block assassin sword2 attack (25%)
[00:04]You parry assassin sword1 attack (30%)
[00:04]You block assassin sword2 attack (25%)
[00:06]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:06]assassin swings with his sword1 for 5 damage!
[00:06]You are poisoned!
[00:06]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!
[00:06]assassin swings with his sword2 for 5 damage!
[00:06]You are poisoned!
[00:06]You are hit for 50 lifebane damage!


Double lifebane poison tick at 00:00 seconds from swinging 2 weapons, Triple lifebane poison tick at 00:06 Seconds from existing poison and double poison application from double swing, This is what im referring to.

BTW the toughest assassins on the server are just using cap speed weapons , neglecting weapon damage for the most part as you said. It is far higher dps to swing faster and swap every 1.5s. You could even time your swing speed to get those "double ticks" every other round of swinging if you were a SB with guaranteed left hand swings every round.

This is exactly what I told the developers and the community at the end of beta. After the initial physical damage nerf I told them that poison and magic damage (shouts etc. from hybrids and classes like Skald/Minstrel) overtook physical damage (melee and archery) and that classes that relied solely on physical damage (main tanks and archers) were going to fall behind. Even with the slight boost to melee prior to the recent LA/DW/CD boost pure physical damage was paltry compared to poison/magic damage. I've been telling prospective Archer players that the reasons Assassins will consistently kick their asses is because of Envenom and not because of weapon damage.

Hopefully someone is going to pay attention. I highly doubt it though.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:04 AM by Ceen
Magic damage vs melee damage is fine.
/switch + allowance of macros is what destroys the balance.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:09 AM by Sepplord
i am all for removing the amount of dmg that can be stacked into fights by reapplying DOT's / double-Dots every swing BUT do not change the re-poisoning mechanic for other poisons (and also DOT) after someone purges or is cured

Best solution imo would be to make dot'S refresh timers but not their tick-cycle. Aka when there is already a DoT on the target, applying the same again only refreshes the timer. The next dmg-tick comes when it would have come without reapplication

Weaponswitching to stack or reapply different poisons = good and core assassin mechanic

Weaponswitching to use DoT-poisons like a DMG add = senseless and borderline exploity


(IF we get too weak because of that, then we can be compensated by other changes...)
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:17 AM by Stoertebecker
Ceen wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:04 AM
Magic damage vs melee damage is fine.
/switch + allowance of macros is what destroys the balance.

Technically Dot-Poison is just a damage-add that ticks every x seconds, but if you allow players to reapply it with every swing...

There is no other damage add with this value ingame, not even close.


Just had a fight on my skald, the ns wasn`t able to land pa cause i hit him out of stealth first. The fight was close, just because he reapplied lifebane with every swing, on top there was wep/con debuff, disease etc... IP safed my butt so i went out with 5% life. Sorry, that isn`t fun if an assassin wins fights just with reapplying poisons, there is no counter against it.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:17 AM by Cadebrennus
Ceen wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:04 AM
Magic damage vs melee damage is fine.
/switch + allowance of macros is what destroys the balance.

Are you still following me and being contrary just for the sake of being contrary? Because it looks like you're being contrary just for the sake of being contrary.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:41 AM by Victos
Sepplord wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:09 AM
i am all for removing the amount of dmg that can be stacked into fights by reapplying DOT's / double-Dots every swing BUT do not change the re-poisoning mechanic for other poisons (and also DOT) after someone purges or is cured

Best solution imo would be to make dot'S refresh timers but not their tick-cycle. Aka when there is already a DoT on the target, applying the same again only refreshes the timer. The next dmg-tick comes when it would have come without reapplication

Weaponswitching to stack or reapply different poisons = good and core assassin mechanic

Weaponswitching to use DoT-poisons like a DMG add = senseless and borderline exploity


(IF we get too weak because of that, then we can be compensated by other changes...)

Well using dots as a means of dmg-add was done since the early days of DAoC, Ciliviel did it in about every single of his videos.

BUT it was only done by people who 1. Knew the technique and 2. Actually put up with the hassle of managing 8+ weapons.

To me the bigger problem here are those macros, they allow EVERYONE (regardless of skilllevel) to swap at will AND allow swapping to absolute extremes.

Normally even if you swap ever swing by hand you would use a slower combination of weapons as you're obly able to move your hand so fast while managing everything else in a fight (including camera movement and so on). That alone would reduce the damage but that's only half of the story, I was an excessive swapper but I still didn't swap - both - weapons at the same time. This alone doubles the poison dmg on a SB and increases it by the amount of offhand swings for NS/Inf respectively.

So by removing the /swap macro you already cut the applied damage roughly in half, then decrease it further by making it a game of skill to switch properly and not a game of rolling your face accross the board and then decrease it even further because of physical limitations of the player (if you're able to swap 24 weapons (as mentioned before) within 37 seconds BY HAND than that win is yours)

Removing the first tick of poisons would remove a core mechanic of assassins they had since the beginning.

In my opinion:
1. Remove /swap from the game
2. Change the damage values according to all other damage values (lowering melee but keeping poisons at the initial level was the first step to imbalance)
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:53 AM by Sepplord
things have changed since back then... if everyone had been using that technique it would have been adjusted pretty fast.
Back in early SI days nearsight also wasn't used much, and there was no nearsight heal at all. Being able to nearsight enemies and all they could do was purge it was also a core mechanic...doesn't mean it was a good one. It was horribly OP but still not used a lot. When it started to get used by a huge portion of groups, cure nearsight got added to healers


We are 15years later, with loads of knowledge that just wasn't widely spread back then, so adjusting mechanics because they are now much more used is a reasonable approach imo
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:18 AM by Victos
Well yes time alone isn't a good indicator for how good something is, but I still think removing it is the wrong solution.

Nearsight also wasn't just removed or got the value decreased to meaningless amounts, instead another spell got added to counter it, which increased the dynamics and skill at play instead of decreasing it. If you're bad at clearing nearsight you're done, if you're not entirely bad then the outcome isn't as predictable, especially since NS still rupts.

But removing the first tick on poisons would also remove something that could potentially be skill based. It would make fights predictable "ok Assa starts with ws/con, followed by disease and dot, if I purge I'll get it all back almost automatically due to /switch, if I don't then the dot will just tick until one of us is dead thanks to almost automatic reapplication with /switch". This to me sounds like static gameplay, it's so predictable one could put the whole envenom line in a passive and forget about it.

On the other hand if envenom got nerfed in a way that makes it harder to manage (and decreased in damage), like no /switch, no repoisoning of multiple bags of weapons other than by hand - then it wouldn't be as predictable. You wouldn't know if your enemy has 3 weapons or 10, does he only have 1 ws/con or multiple? Does he even switch at all? How fast can he switch? Is he able to use his styles properly? Can I somehow abuse the fact he needs his mouse to swap?

In my opinion a solution should be found that increases the dynamics of a fight not dumb it down. Remove /switch, make /moveitem not usable in combat (or else it's the same thing as /switch), decrease poison damage, make reapplying to multiple weapons (other than the ones you've equipped) harder. Maybe someone even knows a way to make envenom more fun and nerfing it at the same time.

But removing a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:02 AM by Stoertebecker
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:18 AM
But removing a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing.

But exploiting a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing. <<< now it makes sense

An assassin don`t need to win every fight against full tanks and if things getting worse just vansih.
That isn`t proper balancing, no matter if it was in game since release.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:14 AM by Victos
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:02 AM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:18 AM
But removing a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing.

But exploiting a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing. <<< now it makes sense

An assassin don`t need to win every fight against full tanks and if things getting worse just vansih.
That isn`t proper balancing, no matter if it was in game since release.

How about reading the rest of my comment including the suggestions instead of taking a quote out of context and changing it?

Nowhere did I claim that weapon swapping in conjunction with envenom in the current form is balanced. In fact I said it has to be changed and by following even just one of the suggestions of mine you would - more than halve - the current damage. Applying the second one works multiplicatively on top of that, even if they only reduced poison damage by 10-20% and removed /switch were looking at a 50-60% overall damage reduction on the - lower - end. In practice - so I claim - the reduction would be even higher.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:47 AM by Stoertebecker
There`s no need in reducing the damage of lifebane, removing /swap etcetc, even the +% damage with viper is ok, i don`t care if they raise it to 50% at stage 5.

Just change it the way that an assassin can`t reapply it as long as a poison-dot is on the target. Really simple.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:29 PM by Victos
"There is no need for nerf A or B in case nerf C gets applied."

That's basically what you've just said, which is no argument for or against any of the solutions, granted all solutions end with the same damage numbers.

One could also say "there is no need to change the mechanics of envenom when /switch is removed or the damage is reduced".

Looking at the numbers your solution basically translates to an 80% reduction in poison damage considering a fight where both weapons always hit (SB).

Also the simplest solution isn't necessarily the optimal one. I'm not saying the solution is bad but that same 80% nerf could be achieved by means that enhance gameplay rather than dumbing it down even further.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:44 PM by Sepplord
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:29 PM
"There is no need for nerf A or B in case nerf C gets applied."

That's basically what you've just said, which is no argument for or against any of the solutions, granted all solutions end with the same damage numbers.

One could also say "there is no need to change the mechanics of envenom when /switch is removed or the damage is reduced".

Looking at the numbers your solution basically translates to an 80% reduction in poison damage considering a fight where both weapons always hit (SB).

Also the simplest solution isn't necessarily the optimal one. I'm not saying the solution is bad but that same 80% nerf could be achieved by means that enhance gameplay rather than dumbing it down even further.

fully agree, though i don't think having inventories full of weapons and poisons and 10 switch macro keys are gameplay enhancing, quite the opposite
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:57 PM by Ashenspire
If any other melee got what amounted to Anger of the Gods 4 with 100% uptime, people would burn this mother to the ground.

It requires no skill to pull off, either. If it we're difficult, that's one thing. Anyone with a switch macro can pull it off.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:13 PM by dante`afk
This is not a buff.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM by Nightwish
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:02 AM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:18 AM
But removing a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing.

But exploiting a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing. <<< now it makes sense

An assassin don`t need to win every fight against full tanks and if things getting worse just vansih.
That isn`t proper balancing, no matter if it was in game since release.

Assassins don't win every fight. I have won plenty 1v1 and even some 1v2s against assassins on my Friar as a solo. I fought against the ones that seem to swap almost every round as well and I could tell because I could clearly see the weapons being equipped/unequipped as I am fighting them. Were they tough fights? Yes. Did I win som e and lost others? Sure. But this was by far the smallest percentage of assassins that I fought where they would try to swap every swing and even then it wasn't too bad to fight against.

I really don't understand this hostility towards a class that doesn't really have much of anything going for them except this gimmicky poison swap technique which seems super cumbersome to manage as well as execute...
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:22 PM by Victos
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:57 PM
It requires no skill to pull off, either. If it we're difficult, that's one thing. Anyone with a switch macro can pull it off.

That's exactly my point, nerf it and then make it require more than a macro. Make it manual again, thise who don't want to put up with it end up with what is suggested in solution C, those who are masochistic enough to put up with managing their inventory in combat actually get rewarded.

Sepplord wrote: fully agree, though i don't think having inventories full of weapons and poisons and 10 switch macro keys are gameplay enhancing, quite the opposite

Yes I do also think that switch macros not only make envenom way too strong, they also dumb down the gameplay. Back in the days learning how to properly switch weapons was rewarding, now you just put a bunch of macros on and you're better than the "Idols" in the past.

I for one liked switching by hand, it gave me more to concentrate on in a fight and was rewarding if done right. /switch to me is just the typical "instant gratification" people want these days.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:28 PM by Nightwish
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:22 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:57 PM
It requires no skill to pull off, either. If it we're difficult, that's one thing. Anyone with a switch macro can pull it off.

That's exactly my point, nerf it and then make it require more than a macro. Make it manual again, thise who don't want to put up with it end up with what is suggested in solution C, those who are masochistic enough to put up with managing their inventory in combat actually get rewarded.

Sepplord wrote: fully agree, though i don't think having inventories full of weapons and poisons and 10 switch macro keys are gameplay enhancing, quite the opposite

Yes I do also think that switch macros not only make envenom way too strong, they also dumb down the gameplay. Back in the days learning how to properly switch weapons was rewarding, now you just put a bunch of macros on and you're better than the "Idols" in the past.

I for one liked switching by hand, it gave me more to concentrate on in a fight and was rewarding if done right. /switch to me is just the typical "instant gratification" people want these days.

Why is this an issue at all? It is literally a non-factor for grp vs grp fights. It is non-factor for zerg vs zerg fights. It is even a non-factor for 2v2 or 3v3 fights. The only time this seems to perform well is 1v1. Assassins are MADE for 1v1 as that is their only purpose in this game... Any other class can literally just get a grp or do a small man an this thing with /swap becomes a non-issue instantly.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:36 PM by dante`afk
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:22 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:57 PM
It requires no skill to pull off, either. If it we're difficult, that's one thing. Anyone with a switch macro can pull it off.

That's exactly my point, nerf it and then make it require more than a macro. Make it manual again, thise who don't want to put up with it end up with what is suggested in solution C, those who are masochistic enough to put up with managing their inventory in combat actually get rewarded.

Sepplord wrote: fully agree, though i don't think having inventories full of weapons and poisons and 10 switch macro keys are gameplay enhancing, quite the opposite

Yes I do also think that switch macros not only make envenom way too strong, they also dumb down the gameplay. Back in the days learning how to properly switch weapons was rewarding, now you just put a bunch of macros on and you're better than the "Idols" in the past.

I for one liked switching by hand, it gave me more to concentrate on in a fight and was rewarding if done right. /switch to me is just the typical "instant gratification" people want these days.

but strafing around and abusing hitbox range/angles is better?
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:37 PM by dante`afk
Nightwish wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:02 AM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:18 AM
But removing a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing.

But exploiting a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing. <<< now it makes sense

An assassin don`t need to win every fight against full tanks and if things getting worse just vansih.
That isn`t proper balancing, no matter if it was in game since release.

Assassins don't win every fight. I have won plenty 1v1 and even some 1v2s against assassins on my Friar as a solo. I fought against the ones that seem to swap almost every round as well and I could tell because I could clearly see the weapons being equipped/unequipped as I am fighting them. Were they tough fights? Yes. Did I win som e and lost others? Sure. But this was by far the smallest percentage of assassins that I fought where they would try to swap every swing and even then it wasn't too bad to fight against.

I really don't understand this hostility towards a class that doesn't really have much of anything going for them except this gimmicky poison swap technique which seems super cumbersome to manage as well as execute...

amen.

blunt dmg, evade styles, selfheals.

friars are scary.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:01 PM by Padatoo
Nightwish wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:02 AM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:18 AM
But removing a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing.

But exploiting a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing. <<< now it makes sense

An assassin don`t need to win every fight against full tanks and if things getting worse just vansih.
That isn`t proper balancing, no matter if it was in game since release.

Assassins don't win every fight. I have won plenty 1v1 and even some 1v2s against assassins on my Friar as a solo. I fought against the ones that seem to swap almost every round as well and I could tell because I could clearly see the weapons being equipped/unequipped as I am fighting them. Were they tough fights? Yes. Did I win som e and lost others? Sure. But this was by far the smallest percentage of assassins that I fought where they would try to swap every swing and even then it wasn't too bad to fight against.

I really don't understand this hostility towards a class that doesn't really have much of anything going for them except this gimmicky poison swap technique which seems super cumbersome to manage as well as execute...

It is funny how people who dont play on assasins protect them,while the ones that do play call for a nerf.
I am a 4L6 SB so far,and actively exploting that /switch poison mechanics,its just too stupid not to - my Unstyled dmg vs a target dummy is around 100 (mh+oh),and using double lifebane would make it 100+100~ >> effectively doubling my unstyled DPS? Hell yes. Its not just a gimmick anymore - its an exploit that should be fixed.
It is not "super cumbersome" to manage as you would think, here is a simple scenario for AHK,which is also legal - "press F1 to switch 1h 1 ;switch offhand 11; use style" can qbind the switch and can use F1-F11 for those.
Reapplication of poison is also easy by dragging poison to hotbar - it applies to all wielded weapons on click.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:21 PM by djegu
Damn ! Sometimes a wonder if we play the same game. I’ve talked to many NS (as a NS myself) and most of us have 4/5 weapons, mainly used for dot stack (energy / matter / body) or to re-apply a debuff if purged. I know 0 NS that have 10 weapon + and switch every swing.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:22 PM by Victos
Nightwish wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:28 PM
Why is this an issue at all? It is literally a non-factor for grp vs grp fights. It is non-factor for zerg vs zerg fights. It is even a non-factor for 2v2 or 3v3 fights. The only time this seems to perform well is 1v1. Assassins are MADE for 1v1 as that is their only purpose in this game... Any other class can literally just get a grp or do a small man an this thing with /swap becomes a non-issue instantly.

Well it's no real issue for me, I fully agree that assassins should be the king of 1v1. And I also don't like tanks looking for "nice fights" and then complain when an assassin uses vanish after they dumped all their "nice fight" RAs on them. I personally don't use certain RAs in 1v1s but that's just me.

I'm just here providing my thought process on how to fix it in case it is regarded as a bigger issue.

I've always been an assassin player and have weapon swapped from the very beginning and will continue to do so here, even to the very extremes possible by macros.

I however do think that these macros take away from the "reward" as everyone is able to put macros on the qbar and roll his fingers accross. And on top of that it's actually quite extreme if done properly.

However whether that should be changed and how is up for debate as assassins should still reign supreme in 1v1s in my opinion.

And hey, I die in 3 hits on my RM, don't complain about it and this would change nothing in that regard either. After all RMs aren't made for 1v1 while assassins are specifically designed for it.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:59 PM by Nightwish
Padatoo wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 3:01 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:16 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 11:02 AM
But exploiting a mechanic and calling it a day isn't exactly what I would call proper balancing. <<< now it makes sense

An assassin don`t need to win every fight against full tanks and if things getting worse just vansih.
That isn`t proper balancing, no matter if it was in game since release.

Assassins don't win every fight. I have won plenty 1v1 and even some 1v2s against assassins on my Friar as a solo. I fought against the ones that seem to swap almost every round as well and I could tell because I could clearly see the weapons being equipped/unequipped as I am fighting them. Were they tough fights? Yes. Did I win som e and lost others? Sure. But this was by far the smallest percentage of assassins that I fought where they would try to swap every swing and even then it wasn't too bad to fight against.

I really don't understand this hostility towards a class that doesn't really have much of anything going for them except this gimmicky poison swap technique which seems super cumbersome to manage as well as execute...

It is funny how people who dont play on assasins protect them,while the ones that do play call for a nerf.
I am a 4L6 SB so far,and actively exploting that /switch poison mechanics,its just too stupid not to - my Unstyled dmg vs a target dummy is around 100 (mh+oh),and using double lifebane would make it 100+100~ >> effectively doubling my unstyled DPS? Hell yes. Its not just a gimmick anymore - its an exploit that should be fixed.
It is not "super cumbersome" to manage as you would think, here is a simple scenario for AHK,which is also legal - "press F1 to switch 1h 1 ;switch offhand 11; use style" can qbind the switch and can use F1-F11 for those.
Reapplication of poison is also easy by dragging poison to hotbar - it applies to all wielded weapons on click.

It is equally funny when I see people presenting a scenario and ONLY representing the best case.

Let's assume you swap every swing. How are you tracking if your off hand actually hit and the poison applied? It could be resisted, your off hand may be blocked, parried, etc. There are many ways in which the poison didn't actually go off and you swapped anyways because unless you are running separate windows to track resists, misses, etc. there is no way of knowing if the poison go off or not...

I have an issue when people think "Oh assassin's apply double dots every swing at cap swing speeds all the time". This is just far from truth. Even if you swap EVERY swing, chances are some percentage of your poisons didn't even go off bc they are resisted, parried, blocked, etc.

It really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:10 PM by Tillbeast
Losing faith and confidence with the dev team the more I play. How on earth can you buff assassins who are already the most overpowered class in the game and ignore other classes who have far more detrimental issues. Assassins need a flat out nerf not a buff. Weapon swapping has always been a lame game breaking feature and there should be some kind of restriction or penalty for doing so. However I think its part of the integral coding (a guess) so cannot be changed or would be very difficult to do so. Back on other servers there were some classes who chose different ra's than normal that hunted assassins so there was some kind of equality but on phoenix it is not possible. I just levelled a shaman to 50 and the amount of shadowblades levelling is insane. Midgard has a severe shortage of some key classes as people have worked out the class to play for easy rps. I would not be surprised if there were a lot of infiltrators and nighshades levelling currently. Go on a TG raid and the most common comment in /bg is Sb lfg please.

I am guessing the buff was aimed more at zerkers, mercs and bm's but the side effect of buffing assassins making them even more untouchable is just crazy. Happy for rangers though, any buff to an archer class is desperately needed.

I doubt anything will be done as its obvious what classes the dev teams mainly play.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:07 PM by Ashenspire
"Assassins should be the king of 1v1."

Well thats not how balance works. If they get off their from stealth critical strike skills, they should be in a very good position to win the fight. Still shouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Some classes are going to be better at soloing than others. Should never be a gimme
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:40 PM by Murtaghe7
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:07 PM
"Assassins should be the king of 1v1."

Well thats not how balance works. If they get off their from stealth critical strike skills, they should be in a very good position to win the fight. Still shouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Some classes are going to be better at soloing than others. Should never be a gimme

This ^^^

Assassin's weren't designed to be 1v1 gods. They were designed to be opportunists. If an assassin miss's their opening CS strikes on a tank, in general they should be at a disadvantage (obviously spec and RR come into play, among other things). But with the current weapon swapping mechanic and dot stacking, an assassin can 1v1 most tanks very effectively even without hitting PA/CD or BS. These straw-man arguments of "oh well i still die on my inf/sb/ns sometimes" or "I've killed an assassin before, so they can't be that OP" need to stop. They're clearly overtuned with the weaponswap/dot-type stacking mechanics as they are, not into the god-tier realm that some people seem to be freaking out about, but certainly well past what assassins were intended to be able to reliably do. Something smart needs to be done about it by the devs.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:47 PM by Victos
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:07 PM
"Assassins should be the king of 1v1."

Well thats not how balance works. If they get off their from stealth critical strike skills, they should be in a very good position to win the fight. Still shouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Some classes are going to be better at soloing than others. Should never be a gimme

They should still have a better winrate than other classes as they're designed around that playstyle, granted they pick the right fights. Sure they shouldn't run around with 90%+ winrate without even landing their opener but they should also not be eaten alive by some "nice fight" tanks that are supposed to be peeling for their group.

So it all boils down to the definition of "king of 1v1". To me even if one class only had a 51% winrate against all other classes it is still the best option and thereby the king.

On top of that this game never was, never should and never could be balanced around 1v1.

What are they supposed to be balanced around anyways? The only classes designed for the very same play style are other assassins.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:50 PM by dante`afk
just stop.

it's not like assas hit with every swing every time, LH gets evaded/blocked/parried very often, MH has also its share of missed swings. I have fights where enemies evade over 10 times, i miss my mainhand/offhand swing due to parry/block or just miss chance over 7 times, so thats like combined 17 missed swings if I survive that long.

you guys are crying like you getting decimated by an atombomb button.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:12 PM by cuuchulain79
Just knowing that assassins can spend a few minutes setting up a 3rd party macro program, and then boost their DPS by 100% for the effort of one extra key stroke per combat round...

Not saying everybody does it...but does this have to exist?

Maybe somebody with can make a "Phoenix: Naked Assassin" video...you know...no gear, no RAs, just a bunch of level 1 daggers with lifebane, and of course double switch macros....I'm fairly certain they'd still get kills.

It still boggles my mind that 3rd party macros are allowed (1 keystroke, swap 2 armor peices, envenom every weapon after the fight, swap fighting armor back, right?-I actually hope I miss-understood the rules, and that that isn't possible), and assassins getting AoTG5 for keystrokes is apparently "part of the Phoenix vision"...

And the first live change to classes on Phoenix....is a buff to assassins....

EDIT:
dante`afk wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:50 PM
just stop.

it's not like assas hit with every swing every time, LH gets evaded/blocked/parried very often, MH has also its share of missed swings. I have fights where enemies evade over 10 times, i miss my mainhand/offhand swing due to parry/block or just miss chance over 7 times, so thats like combined 17 missed swings if I survive that long.

you guys are crying like you getting decimated by an atombomb button.

Of course assassins don't hit every time...no melee does...I'm just confused how to set up a merc/thane/ranger (any non assassin melee) with 3rd party software to get a giant dmg add?
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:24 PM by Cadebrennus
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:12 PM
Just knowing that assassins can spend a few minutes setting up a 3rd party macro program, and then boost their DPS by 100% for the effort of one extra key stroke per combat round...

Not saying everybody does it...but does this have to exist?

Maybe somebody with can make a "Phoenix: Naked Assassin" video...you know...no gear, no RAs, just a bunch of level 1 daggers with lifebane, and of course double switch macros....I'm fairly certain they'd still get kills.

It still boggles my mind that 3rd party macros are allowed (1 keystroke, swap 2 armor peices, envenom every weapon after the fight, swap fighting armor back, right?-I actually hope I miss-understood the rules, and that that isn't possible), and assassins getting AoTG5 for keystrokes is apparently "part of the Phoenix vision"...

And the first live change to classes on Phoenix....is a buff to assassins....

EDIT:
dante`afk wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:50 PM
just stop.

it's not like assas hit with every swing every time, LH gets evaded/blocked/parried very often, MH has also its share of missed swings. I have fights where enemies evade over 10 times, i miss my mainhand/offhand swing due to parry/block or just miss chance over 7 times, so thats like combined 17 missed swings if I survive that long.

you guys are crying like you getting decimated by an atombomb button.

Of course assassins don't hit every time...no melee does...I'm just confused how to set up a merc/thane/ranger (any non assassin melee) with 3rd party software to get a giant dmg add?

Switch command only works for stuff held in your hands, not armor and jewelry. It's good only for weapons, ranged, shields, and instruments.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:40 PM by Ashenspire
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:47 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:07 PM
"Assassins should be the king of 1v1."

Well thats not how balance works. If they get off their from stealth critical strike skills, they should be in a very good position to win the fight. Still shouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Some classes are going to be better at soloing than others. Should never be a gimme

They should still have a better winrate than other classes as they're designed around that playstyle, granted they pick the right fights. Sure they shouldn't run around with 90%+ winrate without even landing their opener but they should also not be eaten alive by some "nice fight" tanks that are supposed to be peeling for their group.

So it all boils down to the definition of "king of 1v1". To me even if one class only had a 51% winrate against all other classes it is still the best option and thereby the king.

On top of that this game never was, never should and never could be balanced around 1v1.

What are they supposed to be balanced around anyways? The only classes designed for the very same play style are other assassins.

No, they should not have a better win rate than other classes. That's not how this game was designed. It was based on a rock paper scissors design wherein tank beat rogue beat caster beat tank.

Yes, if an assassin gets the jump on a frail target like a caster, they should win more than lose.

Yes, if an assassin gets the jump on a tank , they should lose more than win all things being equal
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:58 PM by Yint
dante`afk wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:50 PM
just stop.

it's not like assas hit with every swing every time, LH gets evaded/blocked/parried very often, MH has also its share of missed swings. I have fights where enemies evade over 10 times, i miss my mainhand/offhand swing due to parry/block or just miss chance over 7 times, so thats like combined 17 missed swings if I survive that long.

you guys are crying like you getting decimated by an atombomb button.

Dante I think you are part of the wave of new assassins joining in late? If so, I can understand your frustration seeing many people believe that something needs to be done about the ease of poison dmg add spam before you get out there to really use it, even a fair amount of assassins agree.

To me, assassins were never really the gods of 1v1 in daoc. They were the gods of picking fights they shouldn't lose. The problem here is with enough macro'd poisons, one doesn't need to do any thinking to pick a winnable fight. For example, a sb/ns attacking a friar by mistake thinking it was a caster should be an absolutely miserable fight, and the friar should really be grinning his way to victory knowing he tricked you. Here you already get ws/con debuff so you can debuff the friars damage tremendously. Then add poison spamming on top of that. The Friar is not so lucky to have you attack him here.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:00 PM by WeaselSoup
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:47 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:07 PM
"Assassins should be the king of 1v1."

Well thats not how balance works. If they get off their from stealth critical strike skills, they should be in a very good position to win the fight. Still shouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Some classes are going to be better at soloing than others. Should never be a gimme

They should still have a better winrate than other classes as they're designed around that playstyle, granted they pick the right fights. Sure they shouldn't run around with 90%+ winrate without even landing their opener but they should also not be eaten alive by some "nice fight" tanks that are supposed to be peeling for their group.

So it all boils down to the definition of "king of 1v1". To me even if one class only had a 51% winrate against all other classes it is still the best option and thereby the king.

On top of that this game never was, never should and never could be balanced around 1v1.

What are they supposed to be balanced around anyways? The only classes designed for the very same play style are other assassins.

They are not designed around that playstyle. They are designed around picking off choice targets that are in a bad position, such as casters and healers. Not being able to go toe to toe with heavy tanks in a 1v1, even without landing the PA. (and even if they land the PA, RAs should need to be used to ensure a victory versus a similarly geared/RL heavy tank).

Ah and yes, again, the I should be able to crush 1v1s because I get zerged all the time argument. Stealthers should absolutely be balanced around 1v1 as that is their entire role in the game. To pick off a target and then leave. The entire game should not be balanced around 1v1, no. But this game is unique in that it actually has roles that each class plays. The role of a stealther is winning 1v1s, quickly, against light armored/low defense targets.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:04 PM by Nightwish
Yint wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:58 PM
dante`afk wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:50 PM
just stop.

it's not like assas hit with every swing every time, LH gets evaded/blocked/parried very often, MH has also its share of missed swings. I have fights where enemies evade over 10 times, i miss my mainhand/offhand swing due to parry/block or just miss chance over 7 times, so thats like combined 17 missed swings if I survive that long.

you guys are crying like you getting decimated by an atombomb button.

Dante I think you are part of the wave of new assassins joining in late? If so, I can understand your frustration seeing many people believe that something needs to be done about the ease of poison dmg add spam before you get out there to really use it, even a fair amount of assassins agree.

To me, assassins were never really the gods of 1v1 in daoc. They were the gods of picking fights they shouldn't lose. The problem here is with enough macro'd poisons, one doesn't need to do any thinking to pick a winnable fight. For example, a sb/ns attacking a friar by mistake thinking it was a caster should be an absolutely miserable fight, and the friar should really be grinning his way to victory knowing he tricked you. Here you already get ws/con debuff so you can debuff the friars damage tremendously. Then add poison spamming on top of that. The Friar is not so lucky to have you attack him here.

Again, I posted earlier that I fought plenty of weap swapping assassin on my friar and it is not as bad as people think it is. I see absolutely no issue with /swap because I use it on my friar all the time to swap between bag full of staves based on which proc I need more. It helps all melee classes not just assassins.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:12 PM by Ashenspire
Nightwish wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:04 PM
Yint wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:58 PM
dante`afk wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:50 PM
just stop.

it's not like assas hit with every swing every time, LH gets evaded/blocked/parried very often, MH has also its share of missed swings. I have fights where enemies evade over 10 times, i miss my mainhand/offhand swing due to parry/block or just miss chance over 7 times, so thats like combined 17 missed swings if I survive that long.

you guys are crying like you getting decimated by an atombomb button.

Dante I think you are part of the wave of new assassins joining in late? If so, I can understand your frustration seeing many people believe that something needs to be done about the ease of poison dmg add spam before you get out there to really use it, even a fair amount of assassins agree.

To me, assassins were never really the gods of 1v1 in daoc. They were the gods of picking fights they shouldn't lose. The problem here is with enough macro'd poisons, one doesn't need to do any thinking to pick a winnable fight. For example, a sb/ns attacking a friar by mistake thinking it was a caster should be an absolutely miserable fight, and the friar should really be grinning his way to victory knowing he tricked you. Here you already get ws/con debuff so you can debuff the friars damage tremendously. Then add poison spamming on top of that. The Friar is not so lucky to have you attack him here.

Again, I posted earlier that I fought plenty of weap swapping assassin on my friar and it is not as bad as people think it is. I see absolutely no issue with /swap because I use it on my friar all the time to swap between bag full of staves based on which proc I need more. It helps all melee classes not just assassins.

"I play a class that had been designed to kill assassins as they assume I'm a squishy and then absolutely murder them. It's fine."

A friar should absolutely roflstomp an assassin. If you can't, then it's a problem. No one wants you in groups, it's the only thing you have going for you. To even describe it as "it's not that bad" means it's not good enough
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:21 PM by Stoertebecker
Interesting how some ppl try to justify exploiting a game mechanic.

This isn`t a mythic server or the live server.
This server is already heavily customized, so it shouldn`t be a problem to fix bad game mechanics even if they were ingame since release.

Remembers me on the missing timer on snare poison on live, and assassins were stil playable after they fixed it.

With this mechanic abuse you can run visible and win most of the fights.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:25 PM by defiasbandit
Assassins are utterly broken. R.I.P.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:25 PM by djegu
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:12 PM
To even describe it as "it's not that bad" means it's not good enough

Who are you to assume that the underlying sentence mean it’s not good enough ? You read it the way you want to prove your point which is a fallacy and a cognitive bias.
“It’s not that that bad” means “it’s not that bad” period.
People should stop reading sentence and try to explain the underlying like “obviously There is something implied here”
if he say it’s not that bad he mean it ok ?
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:42 PM by Ashenspire
djegu wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:25 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:12 PM
To even describe it as "it's not that bad" means it's not good enough

Who are you to assume that the underlying sentence mean it’s not good enough ? You read it the way you want to prove your point which is a fallacy and a cognitive bias.
“It’s not that that bad” means “it’s not that bad” period.
People should stop reading sentence and try to explain the underlying like “obviously There is something implied here”
if he say it’s not that bad he mean it ok ?

I didn't read anything the way I wanted to.

He plays a class designed to kill assassins. He's telling others it's not that bad (and is objectively wrong). HE is the one pushing his ideologies into others and he's coming from a place that most others can't relate to.

You use a lot of big words that I don't think you really know what they mean, so I'll keep it simple:

Imagine a cat comes in saying "oh mice aren't that bad" to a bunch of cheese. That's what he did.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:10 PM by Victos
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 6:40 PM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:47 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:07 PM
"Assassins should be the king of 1v1."

Well thats not how balance works. If they get off their from stealth critical strike skills, they should be in a very good position to win the fight. Still shouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Some classes are going to be better at soloing than others. Should never be a gimme

They should still have a better winrate than other classes as they're designed around that playstyle, granted they pick the right fights. Sure they shouldn't run around with 90%+ winrate without even landing their opener but they should also not be eaten alive by some "nice fight" tanks that are supposed to be peeling for their group.

So it all boils down to the definition of "king of 1v1". To me even if one class only had a 51% winrate against all other classes it is still the best option and thereby the king.

On top of that this game never was, never should and never could be balanced around 1v1.

What are they supposed to be balanced around anyways? The only classes designed for the very same play style are other assassins.

No, they should not have a better win rate than other classes. That's not how this game was designed. It was based on a rock paper scissors design wherein tank beat rogue beat caster beat tank.

Yes, if an assassin gets the jump on a frail target like a caster, they should win more than lose.

Yes, if an assassin gets the jump on a tank , they should lose more than win all things being equal

God if I hear people say "it's not how the game was designed and then they continue with false claims about how it was designed. Like seriously did you design the game? Do you even work in game design and have a clue how it works?

DAoC never was designed in a rock, paper, scissors fashion for solo play. DAoC wasn't balanced around solo play - at all. Rock, Paper, Scissors - by definition - needs to have a rock for a pair of scissors, it's about hard counters - there are no hard counters in daoc especially not based on archetype. If that was the case then healers wouldn't be as they are, they are flat out not designed with 1v1 in mind. Your little "game design theory" is also completely missing hybrids.

The assassins or thief classes as mythic called them were specifically introduced as a solo class. They even mentioned "the solo Thief..." in their introduction.

Just because a game has clear favorites in certain situations doesn't mean its rock, paper, scissors. RPS is a very strict game design and DAoC is everything but strictly designed for 1v1.

There are classes in this game, no matter the patch level, that completely fall out of any RPS design whatsoever

Minstrels and skalds are the kings of visible solo rvr, if not solo rvr in general besides assassins with a bunch of weapons. There is almost no counterplay to a properly played minstrel let alone a hard counter.

The fact alone that other visible classes don't have movement speed shows that this game wasn't designed for solo play. If it was designed with anything in mind then it's RvR and overall balance with elements of RPS in mind, but surely not 1v1 balance in the form of strict RPS.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:14 PM by Ashenspire
That's a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing in order to back up your claim.

They've gone on record saying that tanks should beat rogue and rogues and rogues should beat casters and casters should beat tanks. Many times.

The hard counter is the much higher weapon skill/shield line to penetrate the rogues defenses and keep them in place while you smash their face in, or the absurdly high damage opener that penetrates their Bladeturn completely, or the ranged damage/cc to keep you away and make you dead.

The only reason assassins ever stood a chance back in the day against a tank was a buff bot. Your rose tinted glasses need to be upgraded.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:16 PM by cuuchulain79
As the mentioned /switch helping all melee...I agree...it's an easy way to have the right weapon for the situation. It sort of dumbs down the game, but it's fine...

Let's call this Forrest Gump level.

3rd party macroing, finger rolling dual life bane swinging each round...that is full retard.

And you never go full retard.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:21 PM by dbeattie71
Tillbeast wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:10 PM
Losing faith and confidence with the dev team the more I play. How on earth can you buff assassins who are already the most overpowered class in the game and ignore other classes who have far more detrimental issues. Assassins need a flat out nerf not a buff. Weapon swapping has always been a lame game breaking feature and there should be some kind of restriction or penalty for doing so. However I think its part of the integral coding (a guess) so cannot be changed or would be very difficult to do so. Back on other servers there were some classes who chose different ra's than normal that hunted assassins so there was some kind of equality but on phoenix it is not possible. I just levelled a shaman to 50 and the amount of shadowblades levelling is insane. Midgard has a severe shortage of some key classes as people have worked out the class to play for easy rps. I would not be surprised if there were a lot of infiltrators and nighshades levelling currently. Go on a TG raid and the most common comment in /bg is Sb lfg please.

I am guessing the buff was aimed more at zerkers, mercs and bm's but the side effect of buffing assassins making them even more untouchable is just crazy. Happy for rangers though, any buff to an archer class is desperately needed.

I doubt anything will be done as its obvious what classes the dev teams mainly play.

Lol, Midgard has a shortage of key classes? Like Skald, shaman, or healer? That’s funny. If you want to see a shortage of key classes look a serverinfo for hib.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:26 PM by cuuchulain79
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:14 PM
That's a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing in order to back up your claim.

They've gone on record saying that tanks should beat rogue and rogues and rogues should beat casters and casters should beat tanks. Many times.

The hard counter is the much higher weapon skill/shield line to penetrate the rogues defenses and keep them in place while you smash their face in, or the absurdly high damage opener that penetrates their Bladeturn completely, or the ranged damage/cc to keep you away and make you dead.

The only reason assassins ever stood a chance back in the day against a tank was a buff bot. Your rose tinted glasses need to be upgraded.

Maybe in a simple game like Diablo a rock paper scissors model fits....but DAoC has way to many abilities and variables for a static food chain.

And who is 'they' that said this? Mark Jacobs drinking a beer at a game of D&D in the 80s?
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:27 PM by dbeattie71
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:21 PM
Interesting how some ppl try to justify exploiting a game mechanic.

This isn`t a mythic server or the live server.
This server is already heavily customized, so it shouldn`t be a problem to fix bad game mechanics even if they were ingame since release.

Remembers me on the missing timer on snare poison on live, and assassins were stil playable after they fixed it.

With this mechanic abuse you can run visible and win most of the fights.

Run visible and win most of the fights? Rofl
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:37 PM by dbeattie71
dbeattie71 wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:21 PM
Tillbeast wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:10 PM
Losing faith and confidence with the dev team the more I play. How on earth can you buff assassins who are already the most overpowered class in the game and ignore other classes who have far more detrimental issues. Assassins need a flat out nerf not a buff. Weapon swapping has always been a lame game breaking feature and there should be some kind of restriction or penalty for doing so. However I think its part of the integral coding (a guess) so cannot be changed or would be very difficult to do so. Back on other servers there were some classes who chose different ra's than normal that hunted assassins so there was some kind of equality but on phoenix it is not possible. I just levelled a shaman to 50 and the amount of shadowblades levelling is insane. Midgard has a severe shortage of some key classes as people have worked out the class to play for easy rps. I would not be surprised if there were a lot of infiltrators and nighshades levelling currently. Go on a TG raid and the most common comment in /bg is Sb lfg please.

I am guessing the buff was aimed more at zerkers, mercs and bm's but the side effect of buffing assassins making them even more untouchable is just crazy. Happy for rangers though, any buff to an archer class is desperately needed.

I doubt anything will be done as its obvious what classes the dev teams mainly play.

Lol, Midgard has a shortage of key classes? Like Skald, shaman, or healer? That’s funny. If you want to see a shortage of key classes look a serverinfo for hib.

Right now,
1) Skalds 151,
3) Healers 143,
7) Shaman 127

I think Mid is doing fine for key classes.

Almost twice as many Slakds as Bards 😮
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:39 PM by Cadebrennus
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:26 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:14 PM
That's a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing in order to back up your claim.

They've gone on record saying that tanks should beat rogue and rogues and rogues should beat casters and casters should beat tanks. Many times.

The hard counter is the much higher weapon skill/shield line to penetrate the rogues defenses and keep them in place while you smash their face in, or the absurdly high damage opener that penetrates their Bladeturn completely, or the ranged damage/cc to keep you away and make you dead.

The only reason assassins ever stood a chance back in the day against a tank was a buff bot. Your rose tinted glasses need to be upgraded.

Maybe in a simple game like Diablo a rock paper scissors model fits....but DAoC has way to many abilities and variables for a static food chain.

And who is 'they' that said this? Mark Jacobs drinking a beer at a game of D&D in the 80s?

You and the other misinformed (or lazy) guy who said that MJ never said "rock paper scissors", look at what I found in 2 seconds from a Google search:

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/


"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still the best way to go for the game..."
- Mark Jacobs
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:43 PM by Victos
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:14 PM
That's a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing in order to back up your claim.

They've gone on record saying that tanks should beat rogue and rogues and rogues should beat casters and casters should beat tanks. Many times.

The hard counter is the much higher weapon skill/shield line to penetrate the rogues defenses and keep them in place while you smash their face in, or the absurdly high damage opener that penetrates their Bladeturn completely, or the ranged damage/cc to keep you away and make you dead.

The only reason assassins ever stood a chance back in the day against a tank was a buff bot. Your rose tinted glasses need to be upgraded.

Shield and higher ws to penetrate their defenses? You do realize that DW is literally built to penetrate shields right?

I'm still waiting for my minstrel hard counter and for what ever a healer counters in a 1v1.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:54 PM by Victos
Cadebrennus wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:26 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:14 PM
That's a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing in order to back up your claim.

They've gone on record saying that tanks should beat rogue and rogues and rogues should beat casters and casters should beat tanks. Many times.

The hard counter is the much higher weapon skill/shield line to penetrate the rogues defenses and keep them in place while you smash their face in, or the absurdly high damage opener that penetrates their Bladeturn completely, or the ranged damage/cc to keep you away and make you dead.

The only reason assassins ever stood a chance back in the day against a tank was a buff bot. Your rose tinted glasses need to be upgraded.

Maybe in a simple game like Diablo a rock paper scissors model fits....but DAoC has way to many abilities and variables for a static food chain.

And who is 'they' that said this? Mark Jacobs drinking a beer at a game of D&D in the 80s?

You and the other misinformed (or lazy) guy who said that MJ never said "rock paper scissors", look at what I found in 2 seconds from a Google search:

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/


"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still the best way to go for the game..."
- Mark Jacobs

Wow you found a post of Mark Jacobs about Camelot Unchained, not DAoC, stating RPS in general. Now show me where he states that DAoC was strictly RPS designed for solo play. A strict healing class is by definition not RPS.

And no one even claimed that MJ never said anything about RPS, that's completely taken out of thin air.

People and their reading comprehension skills.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:03 PM by WeaselSoup
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:54 PM
Wow you found a post of Mark Jacobs about Camelot Unchained, not DAoC, stating RPS in general. Now show me where he states that DAoC was strictly RPS designed for solo play. A strict healing class is by definition not RPS.

People and their reading comprehension skills.

It is a quote about Mark Jacobs reflecting on his design philosophy of DAoC in a camelot unchained blog post. The words 'still the best way to go' state that DAoC was a rock paper scissors approach. You have been getting utterly destroyed in this thread, and provided no solid logic, evidence, or arguments to back up your statements. Perhaps it's time to reflect on your position and truly consider if it is right for the game.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:05 PM by Kimahri
In my opinion, /switch isn't the problem, it's vanish. Assassin's already have the advantage of stealth, so if they engage a target wrongfully, they deserve to die. They shouldn't have a get out of jail for free card. If you nerf envenom, stealthers become irrelevant (which I guess some people want)
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:18 PM by Victos
WeaselSoup wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:03 PM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:54 PM
Wow you found a post of Mark Jacobs about Camelot Unchained, not DAoC, stating RPS in general. Now show me where he states that DAoC was strictly RPS designed for solo play. A strict healing class is by definition not RPS.

People and their reading comprehension skills.

It is a quote about Mark Jacobs reflecting on his design philosophy of DAoC in a camelot unchained blog post. The words 'still the best way to go' state that DAoC was a rock paper scissors approach. You have been getting utterly destroyed in this thread, and provided no solid logic, evidence, or arguments to back up your statements. Perhaps it's time to reflect on your position and truly consider if it is right for the game.

Even if he was reflecting on his design choices of DAoC, DAoC is by definition not following a RPS design for solo play.

Again reading comprehension, I'm talking about solo play here, as we all were, this whole topic is about the class that mythic introduced as the solo thief. And DAoC wasn't focused on solo play, it was focused on RvR.

"I think that Dark Age of Camelot had a revolutionary RvR system that nobody has been able to equal since 2001. One of the reasons for this is that Dark Age had the advantage of being the first MMORPG to really focus on RvR, and like most “first time” games, it was quite beloved. As to why it was so successful overall, a combination of factors came together, including the team that built it, the focus on RvR instead of it being a tack-on" - Mark Jacobs (mentioning focus on RvR twice in three sentences)

Now go ahead and name a minstrel hard counter, skald hard counter, valkyrie hard counter, ... name me what a healer is a hard counter to.

This is drifting so far offtopic now it's ridiculous. We were talking about class balance on a custom server and suddenly ended up in a theory about how Mark Jacobs intended the class design.

We were at: Is weapon swapping too strong and how to fix it.

So far the majority seems to agree that it is indeed too strong and something should be done about it.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:33 PM by Stoertebecker
WeaselSoup wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:03 PM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:54 PM
Wow you found a post of Mark Jacobs about Camelot Unchained, not DAoC, stating RPS in general. Now show me where he states that DAoC was strictly RPS designed for solo play. A strict healing class is by definition not RPS.

People and their reading comprehension skills.

It is a quote about Mark Jacobs reflecting on his design philosophy of DAoC in a camelot unchained blog post. The words 'still the best way to go' state that DAoC was a rock paper scissors approach. You have been getting utterly destroyed in this thread, and provided no solid logic, evidence, or arguments to back up your statements. Perhaps it's time to reflect on your position and truly consider if it is right for the game.

Thats correct, he said that in several streams that CU is following the same concept rock, paper, scissors, but not as hard as in daoc.
https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/
And yes, it`s written by MJ.

But with this weird abuse of game mechanics, where is the counterpart? Archers?


Btw...liefebaned axes works well on a Berserker.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:38 PM by Joc
Seriously who needs a macro keyboard to drag/drop weapons on the paperdoll. I don't even use the /switch to use poisons. I have 8 weapons for every fight. I also have 2 weapons for quick purges. I very often use 10 poisons and no /switch. Its not even hard to do...

Get rid of switch if you want to then. I'll still swap weapons as I always have. You will see people crying about it being gone though and I'm guessing the majority of them won't be assassins.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:42 PM by djegu
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:42 PM
djegu wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:25 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:12 PM
To even describe it as "it's not that bad" means it's not good enough

Who are you to assume that the underlying sentence mean it’s not good enough ? You read it the way you want to prove your point which is a fallacy and a cognitive bias.
“It’s not that that bad” means “it’s not that bad” period.
People should stop reading sentence and try to explain the underlying like “obviously There is something implied here”
if he say it’s not that bad he mean it ok ?

I didn't read anything the way I wanted to.

He plays a class designed to kill assassins. He's telling others it's not that bad (and is objectively wrong). HE is the one pushing his ideologies into others and he's coming from a place that most others can't relate to.

You use a lot of big words that I don't think you really know what they mean, so I'll keep it simple:

Imagine a cat comes in saying "oh mice aren't that bad" to a bunch of cheese. That's what he did.

Tank were designed to beat rogues not friar, they are hybrid, jack of all trades, master of none. like warden.
and as a friar myself in a previous freeshard i assure you that on 1vs1 against an assassin, it's 50/50 sometimes i won sometimes i lost.
Also I think that these point of view regarding meta grp etc. It's community fault, by putting some class on the side you create something not intended, so was the result ? People being farmed stop going solo visi and go stealther.

In my point of view I don't particularly find assassin to be OP, what is OP it's purge/vanish with theses RAs, a tank can be beaten up by a rogue, so for me, the mistake was New RAs not the games mechanics regarding swapping, because you fucking can't stack lifeban and lifeban DOES NOT re-apply, after 20sc you have to apply a NEW lifeban.
For example I have 3 MH with 3 different dot on it (energy matter and body) I barely use 2 dot, by the time I have applied the second dot (from proc) the fight is over, either i lost or i won.
BUT it's just my gameplay, maybe if i put 2.2 MH i would be able to apply the 3 DOT, but that's mean i sacrifice some flat dps for a proc that do no land every swing.

That's why I advocate for assassin, lot of misconception about it, although yeah vanish must be removed (i removed it from my NS).
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:53 PM by Ashenspire
djegu wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:42 PM
, because you fucking can't stack lifeban and lifeban DOES NOT re-apply, after 20sc you have to apply a NEW lifeban.
For example I have 3 MH with 3 different dot on it (energy matter and body) I barely use 2 dot, by the time I have applied the second dot (from proc) the fight is over, either i lost or i won.
BUT it's just my gameplay, maybe if i put 2.2 MH i would be able to apply the 3 DOT, but that's mean i sacrifice some flat dps for a proc that do no land every swing.

That's why I advocate for assassin, lot of misconception about it, although yeah vanish must be removed (i removed it from my NS).

No one thinks lifebane stacks. Every time you reapply a damage poison, it does the first tick of damage right away.

So not only do you not understand what anyone is actually talking about, you don't understand the mechanics of the game itself. Then you pull out something completely unrelated. Neat.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:54 PM by sabyrtuth
Sure lifebane doesn't stack, but more sins are catching on to simply using 20 fast weapons with dot and swapping every round. A shadowblade last night was ticking an 80dmg dot proc every single swing, including offhand. That's not exactly fun or seems balanced, we do fine without needing a permanent damage add.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:57 PM by Afuldan
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:53 PM
djegu wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:42 PM
, because you fucking can't stack lifeban and lifeban DOES NOT re-apply, after 20sc you have to apply a NEW lifeban.
For example I have 3 MH with 3 different dot on it (energy matter and body) I barely use 2 dot, by the time I have applied the second dot (from proc) the fight is over, either i lost or i won.
BUT it's just my gameplay, maybe if i put 2.2 MH i would be able to apply the 3 DOT, but that's mean i sacrifice some flat dps for a proc that do no land every swing.

That's why I advocate for assassin, lot of misconception about it, although yeah vanish must be removed (i removed it from my NS).

No one thinks lifebane stacks. Every time you reapply a damage poison, it does the first tick of damage right away.

So not only do you not understand what anyone is actually talking about, you don't understand the mechanics of the game itself. Then you pull out something completely unrelated. Neat.

Yeah. Theres stealthers running around with lifebane on several weapons. Easy to spot a reapply when you get the “You have been poisoned!” Every. Swing.

It’s like a DA at this point. Something needs to be done. I’d LOVE to have the same DA that’s adding 80 points to each swing on my Warrior. Maybe I could actually kill an inf or NS.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:00 PM by Victos
WeaselSoup wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:00 PM
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:47 PM
They should still have a better winrate than other classes as they're designed around that playstyle, granted they pick the right fights. Sure they shouldn't run around with 90%+ winrate without even landing their opener but they should also not be eaten alive by some "nice fight" tanks that are supposed to be peeling for their group.

So it all boils down to the definition of "king of 1v1". To me even if one class only had a 51% winrate against all other classes it is still the best option and thereby the king.

On top of that this game never was, never should and never could be balanced around 1v1.

What are they supposed to be balanced around anyways? The only classes designed for the very same play style are other assassins.

They are not designed around that playstyle. They are designed around picking off choice targets that are in a bad position, such as casters and healers. Not being able to go toe to toe with heavy tanks in a 1v1, even without landing the PA. (and even if they land the PA, RAs should need to be used to ensure a victory versus a similarly geared/RL heavy tank).

Ah and yes, again, the I should be able to crush 1v1s because I get zerged all the time argument. Stealthers should absolutely be balanced around 1v1 as that is their entire role in the game. To pick off a target and then leave. The entire game should not be balanced around 1v1, no. But this game is unique in that it actually has roles that each class plays. The role of a stealther is winning 1v1s, quickly, against light armored/low defense targets.

So let me get this straight, I say they are designed to win solo fights granted they pick the right fights and you try to - counter - that statement by saying they are designed to pick off targets.

You do realize that both statements aren't mutually exclusive right? They actually might even mean the exact same thing in case "picking off targets" is regarded as "the right fights".

Also nowhere did I even mention getting zerged, at all.

I said they are a designed solo class, thereby not a designed group class. I then said that a class with an overall winrate of 51% is already regarded as superior (king) which is simply nothing to argue about, it's a fact. And that would also mean that a 51% chance would be "enough" for a solo class to be regarded as the superior solo class. And 51% is nowhere near a guaranteed win.

And nowhere did I mention that an assassin should be able to kill a tank after failing their PA chain.

So basically you're just making up stuff I didn't say, agree with me but still try to disagree somehow by stating the very same thing I already said, then ignore again what I wrote and then continue to claim I'm not using arguments or logic.

I think there has to be some serious misunderstanding, otherwise this would be absolutely ridiculous.

Again here is what I said:
1. weapon swapping is abusable to absolute extremes
2. /switch is a key component
3. a proper solution needs to be found, not necessarily the simplest one
4. assassins should not be able to destroy everything in a straight up weapon draw contest
5. assassins are a (the) solo class and should be balanced around that
6. the given solution to prevent reapplication is about an 80% poison damage nerf
7. this value could be used as the base of other, more refined nerfs/changes
8. It's not a big issue for me personally (as I'm not on the receiving end) but I can see the issue and agreed (see 3.)
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:09 PM by Stoertebecker
Afuldan wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:57 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:53 PM
djegu wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:42 PM
, because you fucking can't stack lifeban and lifeban DOES NOT re-apply, after 20sc you have to apply a NEW lifeban.
For example I have 3 MH with 3 different dot on it (energy matter and body) I barely use 2 dot, by the time I have applied the second dot (from proc) the fight is over, either i lost or i won.
BUT it's just my gameplay, maybe if i put 2.2 MH i would be able to apply the 3 DOT, but that's mean i sacrifice some flat dps for a proc that do no land every swing.

That's why I advocate for assassin, lot of misconception about it, although yeah vanish must be removed (i removed it from my NS).

No one thinks lifebane stacks. Every time you reapply a damage poison, it does the first tick of damage right away.

So not only do you not understand what anyone is actually talking about, you don't understand the mechanics of the game itself. Then you pull out something completely unrelated. Neat.

Yeah. Theres stealthers running around with lifebane on several weapons. Easy to spot a reapply when you get the “You have been poisoned!” Every. Swing.

I’d LOVE to have the same DA that’s adding 80 points to each swing on my Warrior.

Go Axe or Sword, level a poison bot and grab a sack of weapons.
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:12 PM by Joc
People are just butthurt for playing poorly, being unprepared, running in straight lines while solo (aka playing poorly), and having crap templates while being ganked by a well prepared stealth class.

I play visible toons more than my assassin and can tell you I win far more fights against sins because I'm prepared and know how to counter them (yes there are many counters).

Adapt...
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:31 PM by Afuldan
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:09 PM
Afuldan wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:57 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:53 PM
No one thinks lifebane stacks. Every time you reapply a damage poison, it does the first tick of damage right away.

So not only do you not understand what anyone is actually talking about, you don't understand the mechanics of the game itself. Then you pull out something completely unrelated. Neat.

Yeah. Theres stealthers running around with lifebane on several weapons. Easy to spot a reapply when you get the “You have been poisoned!” Every. Swing.

I’d LOVE to have the same DA that’s adding 80 points to each swing on my Warrior.

Go Axe or Sword, level a poison bot and grab a sack of weapons.

Are you kidding me?
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:35 PM by Tillbeast
Fully template, fully buffed (1100 alc) use dragon bone bracer for 75 d/q and jug for 75 s/c 1750ish hp IP2 and maximum resists. Auto loss when fighting an assassin, Dead in under 10 seconds with assassin about 50-60% health. If I chose purge 2 over IP2 be dead in under 6seconds. Guess if I had both I would be dead in under 12 seconds. Assassins are just way too powerful at the moment and need a serious reduction in dps. The only class that has a reasonable chance vs an assassin is another assassin and then you lose if you get hit first 9 times out of 10.

My visible toons beat assassins but assassins suppose to struggle vs heavy armour wearers. Assassins are that good at the moment they easily beat light armoured melee dps if they get the jump on them. Not saying assassins should not be the best 1 on 1 class vs non tanks but there win rate should not be 100%. Any assassin that loses to a clothie or an archer needs to learn the class better unless said clothie/archer is significantly higher rr and even then they can still win, my blade hit 50 and his second solo fight at 50 was vs a rr5 scout with both purge and ip available. Scout was dead very quickly although I was extremely close to dying myself. if I had been rr2 or more prob would still had 60% health left.

My bigger issue with this is fair enough left axe etc was not working properly but surely there are more urgent matters that need sorting. Assassins before this buff were not doing too bad, in fact they were probably the healthiest of all the classes
Wed 6 Mar 2019 12:29 AM by Lance
nerf bonedancers
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:55 AM by Warlay
Kimahri wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:05 PM
In my opinion, /switch isn't the problem, it's vanish. Assassin's already have the advantage of stealth, so if they engage a target wrongfully, they deserve to die. They shouldn't have a get out of jail for free card. If you nerf envenom, stealthers become irrelevant (which I guess some people want)

you totally misunderstood or failed to get to the topic. vanish is the problem? didnt know that vanish can kill someone. Vanish is fine how it is, its the only defense a stealther has against to get zerked. Its also wrong that poison become irrelevant when its not spammable anymore, it does still its damage but its not devestating anymore.
im a rr5 sb which doenst use this poison breaking thing and yesterday i nearly lost agains a rr1 infi which was utterly not lvl 50 cause he gave less rps. i attacked him first, also stunned him and nearly lost, feels not right
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:24 AM by Stoertebecker
Afuldan wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:31 PM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:09 PM
Afuldan wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:57 PM
Yeah. Theres stealthers running around with lifebane on several weapons. Easy to spot a reapply when you get the “You have been poisoned!” Every. Swing.

I’d LOVE to have the same DA that’s adding 80 points to each swing on my Warrior.

Go Axe or Sword, level a poison bot and grab a sack of weapons.

Are you kidding me?

Nope.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:35 AM by Cadebrennus
Victos wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:54 PM
Cadebrennus wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:26 PM
Maybe in a simple game like Diablo a rock paper scissors model fits....but DAoC has way to many abilities and variables for a static food chain.

And who is 'they' that said this? Mark Jacobs drinking a beer at a game of D&D in the 80s?

You and the other misinformed (or lazy) guy who said that MJ never said "rock paper scissors", look at what I found in 2 seconds from a Google search:

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/foundational-principle-6-rock-paper-scissors-natch/


"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still the best way to go for the game..."
- Mark Jacobs

Wow you found a post of Mark Jacobs about Camelot Unchained, not DAoC, stating RPS in general. Now show me where he states that DAoC was strictly RPS designed for solo play. A strict healing class is by definition not RPS.

And no one even claimed that MJ never said anything about RPS, that's completely taken out of thin air.

People and their reading comprehension skills.

Amazing. The guy that lacks reading comprehension is trying to say I have problems with reading comprehension. That would be meta if it wasn't so retarded.

I'll try to use small words. Make sure to sound them out and use your finger to keep your place on the sentence.

Mark Jacobs is talking about his past experience informing his new experience. Here, I will hold your grubby little hand:

"First, I needed justification that the rock, paper, scissor mechanic is still..."
- okay here he says "is still" which means that his last method of doing something "is still" relevant to what method he plans on using in the future.


"the best way to go for the game..."
- here he questions if that prior method of rock/paper/scissors "is still" the best method for his next game moving forward.
.
.
.
.
Got it? Good. Don't screw up again or we'll put a dunce hat on your head and stick you in the corner.
.
.
.
.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:47 AM by Kimahri
Warlay wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:55 AM
Kimahri wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:05 PM
In my opinion, /switch isn't the problem, it's vanish. Assassin's already have the advantage of stealth, so if they engage a target wrongfully, they deserve to die. They shouldn't have a get out of jail for free card. If you nerf envenom, stealthers become irrelevant (which I guess some people want)

you totally misunderstood or failed to get to the topic. vanish is the problem? didnt know that vanish can kill someone. Vanish is fine how it is, its the only defense a stealther has against to get zerked. Its also wrong that poison become irrelevant when its not spammable anymore, it does still its damage but its not devestating anymore.
im a rr5 sb which doenst use this poison breaking thing and yesterday i nearly lost agains a rr1 infi which was utterly not lvl 50 cause he gave less rps. i attacked him first, also stunned him and nearly lost, feels not right

Sounds to me like assassin isn't the class for you mate if your losing to a rr1 below 50 inf as a rr5 sb. Run buffed and poison swap, otherwise expect to die. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it should be removed... Adapt or die.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:20 AM by Stoertebecker
Adapt to exploit game mechanics, that makes sense

There`s a reason they changed that on live.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:06 AM by Durgrim
Stoertebecker wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
Adapt to exploit game mechanics, that makes sense

There`s a reason they changed that on live.

yep If infight/engaged, swapping a weapon from backpack to weaponslot should disarm you for 5s
Problem solved.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:08 AM by gruenesschaf
Sometime this week there will be an update where the envenom dots (and only those dots, not cast dots, not proc dots, only envenom dots) will no longer cause a tick on refresh, they'll just reset the duration.

We discussed other options, among them also a change to the entire poison application mechanic, but this change seems to be the most effective with the least impact on anything else while still preserving poison swapping in case of resist / purge / different poison applications. As part of that update PA will also be slightly adjusted, with around 60 CS you shouldn't really see a difference, with more cs it will go down slightly with less it will go up slightly (see the thread about thid PA performance, the base damage is too low and the scaling per cs point too high).
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:13 AM by Durgrim
deleted
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:17 AM by Durgrim
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:08 AM
Sometime this week there will be an update where the envenom dots (and only those dots, not cast dots, not proc dots, only envenom dots) will no longer cause a tick on refresh, they'll just reset the duration.
+1 Very well considered! Thank you!
So there will be a lot of weapons in the housing zone next week

gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:08 AM
As part of that update PA will also be slightly adjusted, with around 60 CS you shouldn't really see a difference, with more cs it will go down slightly with less it will go up slightly (see the thread about thid PA performance, the base damage is too low and the scaling per cs point too high).
True. Could not underline this more.
Are the same reasons as above discussed for archer damage as well considering the points spec'd into Archery vs. Dmg increase? Or whole new discussion?

thanks!

M.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 AM by dante`afk
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:08 AM
Sometime this week there will be an update where the envenom dots (and only those dots, not cast dots, not proc dots, only envenom dots) will no longer cause a tick on refresh, they'll just reset the duration.

We discussed other options, among them also a change to the entire poison application mechanic, but this change seems to be the most effective with the least impact on anything else while still preserving poison swapping in case of resist / purge / different poison applications. As part of that update PA will also be slightly adjusted, with around 60 CS you shouldn't really see a difference, with more cs it will go down slightly with less it will go up slightly (see the thread about thid PA performance, the base damage is too low and the scaling per cs point too high).

How about giving SB access to blunt weapons? Slash NS/Rangers/Infis fucking destroy SBs even with poison swap.

So if people cry enough, you bend the knee?
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:49 AM by gruenesschaf
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
How about giving SB access to blunt weapons? Slash NS/Rangers/Infis fucking destroy SBs even with poison swap.

So if people cry enough, you bend the knee?

The blunt ability for SBs is something that's also still being discussed / something similar to counter the armor / damage type differences between stealthers.

And of course there are people that would consider any change, no matter how reasonable, to be bending the knee to whining. Preferably with the counter "but it has always been that way, why change a mechanic that has worked like this for years, only because most people back then were too stupid to realize it worked like this and hence almost nobody used it to the extent it's being used here doesn't mean it's broken".
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:53 AM by Joc
Stoertebecker wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
Adapt to exploit game mechanics, that makes sense

There`s a reason they changed that on live.

Lol, assassins are insanely powerful right now on live because of envenome mechanics. Be glad its not like that here. Assassins here are far more balanced than live.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 12:34 PM by Sepplord
Really interested in how this will play out, imo the best approach that was possible (from the ones i thought of or read about here, at least)

I feel for sins that were manually doing it and played the char because they enjoyed this mechanic in particular, but overall i think most assassins either see that the change is reasonable or they are upset because of the loss of power, not because of the loss of the swap-for-every-swing-mechanic


This also lets the staff take a new look at assassin balance (inter assassin balance as well as overall assassinstrength vs others) and if we start to severely underperform i doubt that they will just do nothing
Wed 6 Mar 2019 12:44 PM by Victos
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:08 AM
Sometime this week there will be an update where the envenom dots (and only those dots, not cast dots, not proc dots, only envenom dots) will no longer cause a tick on refresh, they'll just reset the duration.

We discussed other options, among them also a change to the entire poison application mechanic, but this change seems to be the most effective with the least impact on anything else while still preserving poison swapping in case of resist / purge / different poison applications. As part of that update PA will also be slightly adjusted, with around 60 CS you shouldn't really see a difference, with more cs it will go down slightly with less it will go up slightly (see the thread about thid PA performance, the base damage is too low and the scaling per cs point too high).

Glad to see you changing something and still considering alternative paths. I'm still going to drop my SB as this solution isn't that satisfying for me from a gameplay perspective (not that the macros were any better) because I liked manually switching weapons BUT it's still a solution to the problem at hand. So I would like to thank you for working on issues like that to provide a better experience for the players.

Also nice to see the changes to PA, when I tested my SB in thid I did find the PA damage to be off in comparison to backstab, glad this was found to be a scaling issue and got addressed.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:07 PM by Joc
Good overall changes. I may pick up my SB again and dust off my high LA 34cs spec after all. Interested in seeing where this goes.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:42 PM by Nightwish
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:49 AM
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
How about giving SB access to blunt weapons? Slash NS/Rangers/Infis fucking destroy SBs even with poison swap.

So if people cry enough, you bend the knee?

The blunt ability for SBs is something that's also still being discussed / something similar to counter the armor / damage type differences between stealthers.

And of course there are people that would consider any change, no matter how reasonable, to be bending the knee to whining. Preferably with the counter "but it has always been that way, why change a mechanic that has worked like this for years, only because most people back then were too stupid to realize it worked like this and hence almost nobody used it to the extent it's being used here doesn't mean it's broken".

I am going to have to agree with dante`afk here that this seems like a "knee jerk" reaction to whining and crying about something that had such little impact on overall gameplay. Why punish stealthers for this? You are effectively taking away a big chunk of their dmg by making this change but not giving anything else in return to compensate? I just don't get it.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:43 PM by gruenesschaf
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:42 PM
You are effectively taking away a big chunk of their dmg by making this change but not giving anything else in return to compensate?

That's called a nerf. If it really turns out to be too much, which I doubt, it can easily be rectified a bit by increasing the viper %.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:50 PM by Ashenspire
A combination of mechanics that shine a light on an over performing skill line is the cause of this nerf. Not people crying about it because they got beat in a fight.

People acting like 60+ additional damage per swing on assassins is balanced to begin with. It's silly.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:54 PM by Nightwish
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:42 PM
You are effectively taking away a big chunk of their dmg by making this change but not giving anything else in return to compensate?

That's called a nerf. If it really turns out to be too much, which I doubt, it can easily be rectified a bit by increasing the viper %.

Care to elaborate further on why the nerf though? Based on what data is this change being made? I am curious if the team was internally testing this and thought it was too much or was it the forums whining in general? I had my fair share of fighting assassins on my Friar solo, even the ones swap like a kid with adhd, and never thought it was OP. On the contrary, only the ones that would swap constantly could even go toe-to-toe with my friar. So essentially by making this change, assassin's should be free rps now...
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:56 PM by Nightwish
Ashenspire wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:50 PM
A combination of mechanics that shine a light on an over performing skill line is the cause of this nerf. Not people crying about it because they got beat in a fight.

People acting like 60+ additional damage per swing on assassins is balanced to begin with. It's silly.

Nah I don't buy this argument of "60+ additional dmg per swing" none sense. This was discussed on this post that not every swing a) is a successful hit, b) poisons do get resisted and c) hard to track if they go off or not... Need to stop pretending like assassin's swing with and hit with both poisons 100% of the time during the entirity of any given fight. It just does not happen...
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:04 PM by cuuchulain79
IMO, a bit of a heavy handed nerf...the old school drag and drop assassins just got hit hard...and nobody was whining about them...

The exploit was using the QoL /switch command with legal 3rd party software to make combat just a finger-roll for inhuman efficiency.

And yeah...all these people farmed for all these weapons...

Is this set in stone already? There's got to be a better solution...
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:11 PM by keen
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:04 PM
The exploit was using the QoL /switch command with legal 3rd party software to make combat just a finger-roll for inhuman efficiency.
Why would you need 3rd party software with /switch command? All you need is /macro and /switch.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:14 PM by Kwall0311
Im just imagining all the times i will be rolled for the fights being even LONGER time to kill now. Solo game is losing more and more smh. Guess joining the zerg will be the new thing to do. They cried about lethargy and got that changed too. Wonder whats next. Vanish probably.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:20 PM by cuuchulain79
keen wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:11 PM
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:04 PM
The exploit was using the QoL /switch command with legal 3rd party software to make combat just a finger-roll for inhuman efficiency.
Why would you need 3rd party software with /switch command? All you need is /macro and /switch.

With the legal use of 3rd party software here, you can essentially make 1 key stoke = 2 switch macros, 1 for Mainhand, 1 for offhand.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:25 PM by Kimahri
when this nerf comes out, viper will be completely useless. Time to dump everything in mastery of pain, go go go go go!
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:33 PM by Ashenspire
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:56 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:50 PM
A combination of mechanics that shine a light on an over performing skill line is the cause of this nerf. Not people crying about it because they got beat in a fight.

People acting like 60+ additional damage per swing on assassins is balanced to begin with. It's silly.

Nah I don't buy this argument of "60+ additional dmg per swing" none sense. This was discussed on this post that not every swing a) is a successful hit, b) poisons do get resisted and c) hard to track if they go off or not... Need to stop pretending like assassin's swing with and hit with both poisons 100% of the time during the entirity of any given fight. It just does not happen...

No one is pretending anything.

A 30dps damage add with 100% up time is straight dumb, regardless if it can miss sometime.

Give that to any other melee dual wielding melee and tell me it sounds like a good idea with a straight face.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:33 PM by cuuchulain79
If anybody has suggestions, or other things they'd like the staff to hear about this upcoming change...I started a new thread:

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6255
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:33 PM by keen
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:20 PM
keen wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:11 PM
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:04 PM
The exploit was using the QoL /switch command with legal 3rd party software to make combat just a finger-roll for inhuman efficiency.
Why would you need 3rd party software with /switch command? All you need is /macro and /switch.

With the legal use of 3rd party software here, you can essentially make 1 key stoke = 2 switch macros, 1 for Mainhand, 1 for offhand.
true didnt think about that one
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:38 PM by Nightwish
Kimahri wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:25 PM
when this nerf comes out, viper will be completely useless. Time to dump everything in mastery of pain, go go go go go!

It is just not necessary to be honest. It would be better to reduce the amount of delves on poisons then to make this change....
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by Joc
maybe they up viper by 30%? Still a MASSIVE RA investment though. Yes its an overall nerf. Still interested in where this goes. More interested in balancing of armor tables though.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by Nightwish
Ashenspire wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:33 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:56 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:50 PM
A combination of mechanics that shine a light on an over performing skill line is the cause of this nerf. Not people crying about it because they got beat in a fight.

People acting like 60+ additional damage per swing on assassins is balanced to begin with. It's silly.

Nah I don't buy this argument of "60+ additional dmg per swing" none sense. This was discussed on this post that not every swing a) is a successful hit, b) poisons do get resisted and c) hard to track if they go off or not... Need to stop pretending like assassin's swing with and hit with both poisons 100% of the time during the entirity of any given fight. It just does not happen...

No one is pretending anything.

A 30dps damage add with 100% up time is straight dumb, regardless if it can miss sometime.

Give that to any other melee dual wielding melee and tell me it sounds like a good idea with a straight face.

Of course it would be dumb to give it to "other" melee a 30 dps damage add as other melee have higher dmg tables then assassins.... Also, it is not 100% uptime.... This just makes it so assassins are able to go toe-to-toe with other melee and if this nerf goes live, they will be totally destroyed by any other melee.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:47 PM by Ashenspire
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:41 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:33 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:56 PM
Nah I don't buy this argument of "60+ additional dmg per swing" none sense. This was discussed on this post that not every swing a) is a successful hit, b) poisons do get resisted and c) hard to track if they go off or not... Need to stop pretending like assassin's swing with and hit with both poisons 100% of the time during the entirity of any given fight. It just does not happen...

No one is pretending anything.

A 30dps damage add with 100% up time is straight dumb, regardless if it can miss sometime.

Give that to any other melee dual wielding melee and tell me it sounds like a good idea with a straight face.

Of course it would be dumb to give it to "other" melee a 30 dps damage add as other melee have higher dmg tables then assassins.... Also, it is not 100% uptime.... This just makes it so assassins are able to go toe-to-toe with other melee and if this nerf goes live, they will be totally destroyed by any other melee.

Assassins shouldn't be able to just go toe to toe with other melee at will, though. All things being equal, an assassin killing a melee should require the from stealth opener, and the use of multiple different poisons.

As it stands, assassins can just have 10 weapons with lifebane to switch to to straight up out DPS melee characters after the WS/com debuff and other debuff poisons of choice. Thats not how it should work on a character that can pick and choose their fights, or completely disappear if they've chosen a poor matchup and start to lose.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:30 PM by Stoertebecker
Joc wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:53 AM
Stoertebecker wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:20 AM
Adapt to exploit game mechanics, that makes sense

There`s a reason they changed that on live.

Lol, assassins are insanely powerful right now on live because of envenome mechanics. Be glad its not like that here. Assassins here are far more balanced than live.

I´ve played the last year on live, and i ate most of the assassins alive on my ranger...except cheaterbombs and a handful other really good sneaks.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:45 PM by Kimahri
It would be nice if assassins could receive a free RA respec when this nerf goes live so they can fix their spec.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:58 PM by Warlay
Kimahri wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:47 AM
Warlay wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:55 AM
Kimahri wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:05 PM
In my opinion, /switch isn't the problem, it's vanish. Assassin's already have the advantage of stealth, so if they engage a target wrongfully, they deserve to die. They shouldn't have a get out of jail for free card. If you nerf envenom, stealthers become irrelevant (which I guess some people want)

you totally misunderstood or failed to get to the topic. vanish is the problem? didnt know that vanish can kill someone. Vanish is fine how it is, its the only defense a stealther has against to get zerked. Its also wrong that poison become irrelevant when its not spammable anymore, it does still its damage but its not devestating anymore.
im a rr5 sb which doenst use this poison breaking thing and yesterday i nearly lost agains a rr1 infi which was utterly not lvl 50 cause he gave less rps. i attacked him first, also stunned him and nearly lost, feels not right

Sounds to me like assassin isn't the class for you mate if your losing to a rr1 below 50 inf as a rr5 sb. Run buffed and poison swap, otherwise expect to die. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it should be removed... Adapt or die.

haha it seems you need to adapt.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:59 PM by WeaselSoup
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:49 AM
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
How about giving SB access to blunt weapons? Slash NS/Rangers/Infis fucking destroy SBs even with poison swap.

So if people cry enough, you bend the knee?

The blunt ability for SBs is something that's also still being discussed / something similar to counter the armor / damage type differences between stealthers.

And of course there are people that would consider any change, no matter how reasonable, to be bending the knee to whining. Preferably with the counter "but it has always been that way, why change a mechanic that has worked like this for years, only because most people back then were too stupid to realize it worked like this and hence almost nobody used it to the extent it's being used here doesn't mean it's broken".

Thank you for this change and realizing how silly that argument is.

Next stop on the nerf bus. Bonedancers.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:26 PM by Citian
Lol if you used switch and thought the dps was appropriate. Free arpeez
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:29 PM by florin
I’d like to thank pumkin and hashashun for making this happen. Well done shadowblades
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:36 PM by Stoertebecker
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:41 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:33 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:56 PM
Nah I don't buy this argument of "60+ additional dmg per swing" none sense. This was discussed on this post that not every swing a) is a successful hit, b) poisons do get resisted and c) hard to track if they go off or not... Need to stop pretending like assassin's swing with and hit with both poisons 100% of the time during the entirity of any given fight. It just does not happen...

No one is pretending anything.

A 30dps damage add with 100% up time is straight dumb, regardless if it can miss sometime.

Give that to any other melee dual wielding melee and tell me it sounds like a good idea with a straight face.

Of course it would be dumb to give it to "other" melee a 30 dps damage add as other melee have higher dmg tables then assassins....

Haven`t seen higher melee damage than PA, follow up and str/con debuff, but maybe it`s just me.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:39 PM by Kwall0311
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:29 PM
I’d like to thank pumkin and hashashun for making this happen. Well done shadowblades

Lol how... I dont even use a macro program.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:49 PM by florin
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:39 PM
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:29 PM
I’d like to thank pumkin and hashashun for making this happen. Well done shadowblades

Lol how... I dont even use a macro program.

Gave up on your Corsair that you asked for help with in discord? Internet has a long memory my friend.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:52 PM by Kwall0311
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:49 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:39 PM
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:29 PM
I’d like to thank pumkin and hashashun for making this happen. Well done shadowblades

Lol how... I dont even use a macro program.

Gave up on your Corsair that you asked for help with in discord? Internet has a long memory my friend.

Thats a corsair mouse that binds PA to left mouse click. Nice try, though.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:53 PM by florin
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:52 PM
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:49 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:39 PM
Lol how... I dont even use a macro program.

Gave up on your Corsair that you asked for help with in discord? Internet has a long memory my friend.

Thats a corsair mouse that binds PA to left mouse click. Nice try, though.

1 pa 1 double frost LOL
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:54 PM by Kwall0311
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:53 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:52 PM
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:49 PM
Gave up on your Corsair that you asked for help with in discord? Internet has a long memory my friend.

Thats a corsair mouse that binds PA to left mouse click. Nice try, though.

1 pa 1 double frost LOL

Even if i had DF, or two attacks bound to one click, which i dont know how to do. I dont see how that would help me. Again, nice try guy.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:59 PM by Ashenspire
Did this dude just use Doublefrost like it's some kind of super advantage that Shadowblades have?
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:11 PM by Stoertebecker
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:54 PM
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:53 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:52 PM
Thats a corsair mouse that binds PA to left mouse click. Nice try, though.

1 pa 1 double frost LOL

Even if i had DF, or two attacks bound to one click, which i dont know how to do. I dont see how that would help me. Again, nice try guy.

If you have a corsair witch is able to bind a macro to a mouse button (and they do that all, afaik), you know how to, there are enough vids/walktroughs available.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:13 PM by Kwall0311
Stoertebecker wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:11 PM
Kwall0311 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:54 PM
florin wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 4:53 PM
1 pa 1 double frost LOL

Even if i had DF, or two attacks bound to one click, which i dont know how to do. I dont see how that would help me. Again, nice try guy.

If you have a corsair witch is able to bind a macro to a mouse button (and they do that all, afaik), you know how to, there are enough vids/walktroughs available.

I mean, sure, i guess. I just dont see how binding two attacks to my left thumb button would help me. Nor would i ever do that. I use it for PA only. But somehow that makes me elite at weapon swaps according to Florin, lol.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:14 PM by dbeattie71
I have 3 extra weapons, I’m to lazy for swapping 14 weapons lol.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:53 PM by djegu
Ashenspire wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:53 PM
djegu wrote:
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:42 PM
, because you fucking can't stack lifeban and lifeban DOES NOT re-apply, after 20sc you have to apply a NEW lifeban.
For example I have 3 MH with 3 different dot on it (energy matter and body) I barely use 2 dot, by the time I have applied the second dot (from proc) the fight is over, either i lost or i won.
BUT it's just my gameplay, maybe if i put 2.2 MH i would be able to apply the 3 DOT, but that's mean i sacrifice some flat dps for a proc that do no land every swing.

That's why I advocate for assassin, lot of misconception about it, although yeah vanish must be removed (i removed it from my NS).

No one thinks lifebane stacks. Every time you reapply a damage poison, it does the first tick of damage right away.

So not only do you not understand what anyone is actually talking about, you don't understand the mechanics of the game itself. Then you pull out something completely unrelated. Neat.

I know the thread went far ahead since yesterday, but i want to take the time to answer.

Indeed, you are right, I did not knew that lifeban was ticking everytime you re-apply it, I never played assassin that way, here or back in 2004. I find it surprising and more surprising that nothing had been done before to counter that, I know totally understand argument against /switch command and how people perceive assassin.

I still need your explanation on why you think friar is designated to kill assassin ? I clearly don't see it that way but would like to hear your point of view.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:09 PM by Padatoo
Turns out that "The Friar Guy" is actually a Shadowblade.Case solved.
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:21 PM by dante`afk
turns out he's a friar: https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Niightwish

dimwit



I'd like to know the results of the internal testing that has been made for that decision too?
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:57 PM by cuuchulain79
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
I'd like to know the results of the internal testing that has been made for that decision too?

It looks like Phoenix has more of a Zucker Bros philosophy...that is try stuff and see what works.

In other words, 4,000 players are about to do the testing for them...

As for using the same philosophy for writing funny one liners in The Naked Gun being used to balance a MMO...not sure about this.

I know this is a freeshard built on volunteer time...but not even a 'We're looking into this' just news of a nerf casually placed on the 13th page of a discussion thread...honestly it feels like a beta atmosphere trying to work the kinks out.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:09 AM by kmark101
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:57 PM
It looks like Phoenix has more of a Zucker Bros philosophy...that is try stuff and see what works.

In other words, 4,000 players are about to do the testing for them...

As for using the same philosophy for writing funny one liners in The Naked Gun being used to balance a MMO...not sure about this.

I know this is a freeshard built on volunteer time...but not even a 'We're looking into this' just news of a nerf casually placed on the 13th page of a discussion thread...honestly it feels like a beta atmosphere trying to work the kinks out.

So what? They are doing their best, working lots so you can play. Give them a break and breath some fresh air.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:15 AM by Nightwish
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
turns out he's a friar: https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Niightwish

dimwit



I'd like to know the results of the internal testing that has been made for that decision too?

Looks like Dante beat me to it.

Turns out “the Friar Guy” is a Friar after all. God forbid people make suggestions and comments on a topic experiencing BOTH sides of the argument.

My Friar is 4L5 and my Shadowblade is not even 50 yet. Your attempt to invalidate my arguments, because I happened to have a SB alt, only shows that you are looking for any reason to flat out dismiss the side I am defending. Once my SB is 50 I am hoping to do some tests to further produce actual numbers in regards to DPS and TTK differences between swapping poisons with /swap and only refreshing it when they run out.

Nice try though big fella.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:18 AM by Afuldan
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:15 AM
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
turns out he's a friar: https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Niightwish

dimwit



I'd like to know the results of the internal testing that has been made for that decision too?

Looks like Dante beat me to it.

Turns out “the Friar Guy” is a Friar after all. God forbid people make suggestions and comments on a topic experiencing BOTH sides of the argument.

My Friar is 4L5 and my Shadowblade is not even 50 yet. Your attempt to invalidate my arguments, because I happened to have a SB alt, only shows that you are looking for any reason to flat out dismiss the side I am defending. Once my SB is 50 I am hoping to do some tests to further produce actual numbers in regards to DPS and TTK differences between swapping poisons with /swap and only refreshing it when they run out.

Nice try though big fella.

The issue wasn’t that /switched or click and dropped weapons reapply poisons. The issue was that the DoT poisons were ticking on being reapplied, which led to Lifebane ticking every combat round.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:23 AM by Stoertebecker
cuuchulain79 wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:57 PM
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
I'd like to know the results of the internal testing that has been made for that decision too?

It looks like Phoenix has more of a Zucker Bros philosophy...that is try stuff and see what works.

In other words, 4,000 players are about to do the testing for them...

As for using the same philosophy for writing funny one liners in The Naked Gun being used to balance a MMO...not sure about this.

I know this is a freeshard built on volunteer time...but not even a 'We're looking into this' just news of a nerf casually placed on the 13th page of a discussion thread...honestly it feels like a beta atmosphere trying to work the kinks out.

They could do it like the Uthgard or even Live -Team...doing nothing for ages, is that what you want? Not? Ahaaa

I´m more than pleased with the staffs work and their communication.

But feel free to send in an application for some kind of bundling all the stuff they`re working on and publish it on a daily basis.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:26 AM by Nightwish
Afuldan wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:18 AM
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:15 AM
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
turns out he's a friar: https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Niightwish

dimwit



I'd like to know the results of the internal testing that has been made for that decision too?

Looks like Dante beat me to it.

Turns out “the Friar Guy” is a Friar after all. God forbid people make suggestions and comments on a topic experiencing BOTH sides of the argument.

My Friar is 4L5 and my Shadowblade is not even 50 yet. Your attempt to invalidate my arguments, because I happened to have a SB alt, only shows that you are looking for any reason to flat out dismiss the side I am defending. Once my SB is 50 I am hoping to do some tests to further produce actual numbers in regards to DPS and TTK differences between swapping poisons with /swap and only refreshing it when they run out.

Nice try though big fella.

The issue wasn’t that /switched or click and dropped weapons reapply poisons. The issue was that the DoT poisons were ticking on being reapplied, which led to Lifebane ticking every combat round.

I know exactly what the issue that is being discussed here is. My argument is that if the change proposed is made, it will effectively make assassins useless .

Why? Because by removing the dot application on first tick and making it so it only extends the existing duration, assassin dmg will be nerfed close to 30-50% which I believe is too much.

Any nerf to any class that effectively reduces their dmg by anything more than 10% in one go is too much imo.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:50 AM by Stoertebecker
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:26 AM
Afuldan wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:18 AM
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:15 AM
Looks like Dante beat me to it.

Turns out “the Friar Guy” is a Friar after all. God forbid people make suggestions and comments on a topic experiencing BOTH sides of the argument.

My Friar is 4L5 and my Shadowblade is not even 50 yet. Your attempt to invalidate my arguments, because I happened to have a SB alt, only shows that you are looking for any reason to flat out dismiss the side I am defending. Once my SB is 50 I am hoping to do some tests to further produce actual numbers in regards to DPS and TTK differences between swapping poisons with /swap and only refreshing it when they run out.

Nice try though big fella.

The issue wasn’t that /switched or click and dropped weapons reapply poisons. The issue was that the DoT poisons were ticking on being reapplied, which led to Lifebane ticking every combat round.

I know exactly what the issue that is being discussed here is. My argument is that if the change proposed is made, it will effectively make assassins useless .

Why? Because by removing the dot application on first tick and making it so it only extends the existing duration, assassin dmg will be nerfed close to 30-50% which I believe is too much.

Stop this bs, the change will be like the system on live, and assassins there are far from being useless. A dot ticks every 4 s for 20s, that should be enough, but nooooo...you want it every 1,5-2s. The best would be if the poison ticks between 2 swings at speed cap, or? Selfishness as its best.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:54 AM by dante`afk
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:26 AM
assassin dmg will be nerfed close to 30-50% which I believe is too much.

Any nerf to any class that effectively reduces their dmg by anything more than 10% in one go is too much imo.

hurts SB more than infi/ns though, because of the guaranteed double swing.

my SB hits for 110-120 after WS debuff, poison ticks for 55. slash ns/infi/ranger hits me for 150+, thrusters for 140+, guess who's gonna win.

not gonna talk fighting against friars tho, they absolute wreck mid leather, and are barely competitive with poison swap
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:04 AM by kedelin
i love how all the assasins are whining because they cant exploit a flawed mechanic anymore...
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:19 AM by Mauriac
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:42 PM
You are effectively taking away a big chunk of their dmg by making this change but not giving anything else in return to compensate?

That's called a nerf. If it really turns out to be too much, which I doubt, it can easily be rectified a bit by increasing the viper %.

or we could actually tackle the main cause of the problem which is the custom /switch function. Most of us have been playing DAoC for a long time. Most people also know that the majority of people who play assassins suck at it for a variety of reasons.

1) bad target selection
2) don't know how to position
3) don't carry multiple weapons
4) don't swap weapons or do it effectively

However, phoenix tackled 3 of these issues inadvertently.

1) you can port into rvr so who cares about target selection since it's all a giant zerg anyway
2) no change
3) limitless supply of 99qual RoG coupled with high RoG jewelry means that a class that USED to be very difficult, time consuming and expensive to template properly can be done in a matter of days with a MH free template. This means you can easily get 12 weapons just from the RoGs. If you're willing to put in the extra work you can even build a totally WEAPON free template and swap in MH and OH to your heart's content.
4) you made a /switch command. Since 2001 assassins who didn't suck had to manually drag and drop their weapons from their bag. Doing this while maintaining positioning, hitting your reactive styles, not getting side stunned or los/abused, and generally maintaining a rhythm for ALL of it, is NOT something that the vast majority of the DAoC community is either willing or capable of doing long term. You literally made this straight easy mode by letting people hotkey a bag slot and do it for them. Now you can swap in MH and OH at will with the press of a button.

THIS is why people are crying about assassins. It has nothing to do with envenom, viper, or assassin damage. It has to do with the situation created on Phoenix by a series of design decisions and in the case of /switch, a QoL that is being abused.

Rather than nerf an entire class because of a CUSTOM QOL feature, why don't we consider adjusting that QoL feature so that it can't be abused anymore and still lets everyone else enjoy it. Simple fix

1) remove /switch or
2) put it on a cooldown or
3) limit the use of /switch to a single bag slot so that it only works for classes who aren't trying to spam 12 weapons

You do EITHER of those three things and you will see assassin DPS drop dramatically as the majority of the population frankly will either suck at or won't even bother trying to manually swap their weapons. Nerfing an entire class because of a QoL feature gone wrong is, in my humble opinion, a terrible and frankly weak approach to the problem. People have always whined about assassins since this game's inception and most of the whiners have never played one and will never play one so they have no clue what they're whining about.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:37 AM by Nightwish
Mauriac wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:19 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:42 PM
You are effectively taking away a big chunk of their dmg by making this change but not giving anything else in return to compensate?

That's called a nerf. If it really turns out to be too much, which I doubt, it can easily be rectified a bit by increasing the viper %.

or we could actually tackle the main cause of the problem which is the custom /switch function. Most of us have been playing DAoC for a long time. Most people also know that the majority of people who play assassins suck at it for a variety of reasons.

1) bad target selection
2) don't know how to position
3) don't carry multiple weapons
4) don't swap weapons or do it effectively

However, phoenix tackled 3 of these issues inadvertently.

1) you can port into rvr so who cares about target selection since it's all a giant zerg anyway
2) no change
3) limitless supply of 99qual RoG coupled with high RoG jewelry means that a class that USED to be very difficult, time consuming and expensive to template properly can be done in a matter of days with a MH free template. This means you can easily get 12 weapons just from the RoGs. If you're willing to put in the extra work you can even build a totally WEAPON free template and swap in MH and OH to your heart's content.
4) you made a /switch command. Since 2001 assassins who didn't suck had to manually drag and drop their weapons from their bag. Doing this while maintaining positioning, hitting your reactive styles, not getting side stunned or los/abused, and generally maintaining a rhythm for ALL of it, is NOT something that the vast majority of the DAoC community is either willing or capable of doing long term. You literally made this straight easy mode by letting people hotkey a bag slot and do it for them. Now you can swap in MH and OH at will with the press of a button.

THIS is why people are crying about assassins. It has nothing to do with envenom, viper, or assassin damage. It has to do with the situation created on Phoenix by a series of design decisions and in the case of /switch, a QoL that is being abused.

Rather than nerf an entire class because of a CUSTOM QOL feature, why don't we consider adjusting that QoL feature so that it can't be abused anymore and still lets everyone else enjoy it. Simple fix

1) remove /switch or
2) put it on a cooldown or
3) limit the use of /switch to a single bag slot so that it only works for classes who aren't trying to spam 12 weapons

You do EITHER of those three things and you will see assassin DPS drop dramatically as the majority of the population frankly will either suck at or won't even bother trying to manually swap their weapons. Nerfing an entire class because of a QoL feature gone wrong is, in my humble opinion, a terrible and frankly weak approach to the problem. People have always whined about assassins since this game's inception and most of the whiners have never played one and will never play one so they have no clue what they're whining about.

All great suggestions!

I will add one more

a) Reduce dot poison delve by 10% initially. Effectively leave the mechanic untouched but lower overall dmg by 10%. Further adjust if necessary.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:39 AM by Mauriac
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:37 AM
Mauriac wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:19 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
That's called a nerf. If it really turns out to be too much, which I doubt, it can easily be rectified a bit by increasing the viper %.

or we could actually tackle the main cause of the problem which is the custom /switch function. Most of us have been playing DAoC for a long time. Most people also know that the majority of people who play assassins suck at it for a variety of reasons.

1) bad target selection
2) don't know how to position
3) don't carry multiple weapons
4) don't swap weapons or do it effectively

However, phoenix tackled 3 of these issues inadvertently.

1) you can port into rvr so who cares about target selection since it's all a giant zerg anyway
2) no change
3) limitless supply of 99qual RoG coupled with high RoG jewelry means that a class that USED to be very difficult, time consuming and expensive to template properly can be done in a matter of days with a MH free template. This means you can easily get 12 weapons just from the RoGs. If you're willing to put in the extra work you can even build a totally WEAPON free template and swap in MH and OH to your heart's content.
4) you made a /switch command. Since 2001 assassins who didn't suck had to manually drag and drop their weapons from their bag. Doing this while maintaining positioning, hitting your reactive styles, not getting side stunned or los/abused, and generally maintaining a rhythm for ALL of it, is NOT something that the vast majority of the DAoC community is either willing or capable of doing long term. You literally made this straight easy mode by letting people hotkey a bag slot and do it for them. Now you can swap in MH and OH at will with the press of a button.

THIS is why people are crying about assassins. It has nothing to do with envenom, viper, or assassin damage. It has to do with the situation created on Phoenix by a series of design decisions and in the case of /switch, a QoL that is being abused.

Rather than nerf an entire class because of a CUSTOM QOL feature, why don't we consider adjusting that QoL feature so that it can't be abused anymore and still lets everyone else enjoy it. Simple fix

1) remove /switch or
2) put it on a cooldown or
3) limit the use of /switch to a single bag slot so that it only works for classes who aren't trying to spam 12 weapons

You do EITHER of those three things and you will see assassin DPS drop dramatically as the majority of the population frankly will either suck at or won't even bother trying to manually swap their weapons. Nerfing an entire class because of a QoL feature gone wrong is, in my humble opinion, a terrible and frankly weak approach to the problem. People have always whined about assassins since this game's inception and most of the whiners have never played one and will never play one so they have no clue what they're whining about.

All great suggestions!

I will add one more

a) Reduce dot poison delve by 10% initially. Effectively leave the mechanic untouched but lower overall dmg by 10%. Further adjust if necessary.

a much better proposition than the overall envenom change being considered.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:49 AM by krycek
As an assassin that never spammed dot swapping I support this. I'm able to kill just fine without it. Was more of a crutch and imo an unintended use of dot poisons.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:52 AM by dante`afk
Mauriac wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:19 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:43 PM
Nightwish wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:42 PM
You are effectively taking away a big chunk of their dmg by making this change but not giving anything else in return to compensate?

That's called a nerf. If it really turns out to be too much, which I doubt, it can easily be rectified a bit by increasing the viper %.

or we could actually tackle the main cause of the problem which is the custom /switch function. Most of us have been playing DAoC for a long time. Most people also know that the majority of people who play assassins suck at it for a variety of reasons.

1) bad target selection
2) don't know how to position
3) don't carry multiple weapons
4) don't swap weapons or do it effectively

However, phoenix tackled 3 of these issues inadvertently.

1) you can port into rvr so who cares about target selection since it's all a giant zerg anyway
2) no change
3) limitless supply of 99qual RoG coupled with high RoG jewelry means that a class that USED to be very difficult, time consuming and expensive to template properly can be done in a matter of days with a MH free template. This means you can easily get 12 weapons just from the RoGs. If you're willing to put in the extra work you can even build a totally WEAPON free template and swap in MH and OH to your heart's content.
4) you made a /switch command. Since 2001 assassins who didn't suck had to manually drag and drop their weapons from their bag. Doing this while maintaining positioning, hitting your reactive styles, not getting side stunned or los/abused, and generally maintaining a rhythm for ALL of it, is NOT something that the vast majority of the DAoC community is either willing or capable of doing long term. You literally made this straight easy mode by letting people hotkey a bag slot and do it for them. Now you can swap in MH and OH at will with the press of a button.

THIS is why people are crying about assassins. It has nothing to do with envenom, viper, or assassin damage. It has to do with the situation created on Phoenix by a series of design decisions and in the case of /switch, a QoL that is being abused.

Rather than nerf an entire class because of a CUSTOM QOL feature, why don't we consider adjusting that QoL feature so that it can't be abused anymore and still lets everyone else enjoy it. Simple fix

1) remove /switch or
2) put it on a cooldown or
3) limit the use of /switch to a single bag slot so that it only works for classes who aren't trying to spam 12 weapons

You do EITHER of those three things and you will see assassin DPS drop dramatically as the majority of the population frankly will either suck at or won't even bother trying to manually swap their weapons. Nerfing an entire class because of a QoL feature gone wrong is, in my humble opinion, a terrible and frankly weak approach to the problem. People have always whined about assassins since this game's inception and most of the whiners have never played one and will never play one so they have no clue what they're whining about.


Spot on

@gruenesschaf
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:22 AM by Numatic
Here's the thing about the drag and drop bug that became a feature.

Think about this from a dev perspective. No dev in his right mind is going to create a "feature" like this. If a dev came out and said "to be able to compete we are forcing assasins to drag and drop their pre poisoned weapons after every swing to boost their damage with extra lifebane ticks" they would be reamed out by the community. Dont fool yourself into believing that this exploit was intentional or kept to make you "play your class better". It was kept because assasins at the time were struggling while others who mastered this exploit were doing fine. So instead of a mass of buff assasin whines, other players pointed at the exploit and said "get gud" therefore taking care of the problem for the devs.

The /switch macro just exacerbated the issue. To say that you're a better player because you should be allowed to abuse a bug over every other class that doesnt require doing anything remotely like it (maybe except minstrels with their song twisting) is very condescending.

Keeping the drag and drop feature and removing /switch wont fix the issue. It will simply open the gap between people who want to abuse the bug for extra damage and those who are annoyed at having to do that to compete.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 7:32 AM by krumr
Wow, you guys sure know how to drag a useless discussion forever.

Try the change for a bit, a couple days at least, see how much of an impact it is, then post your findings with data.
Devs have shown themselves to be open to constructive criticism (see the rvr task system being modified repeatedly to find a better balance), if things won't go as planned, and the fix proves to be too hard of a nerf, it's obvious they will get back to it again: there is no reason to panic this much.

Actually, the more you keep criticizing a not yet implented change just to defend the status quo, the more your opinion looks (and in truth is) biased, thus totally worthless to the debate.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 9:40 AM by Stoertebecker
krumr wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 7:32 AM
Wow, you guys sure know how to drag a useless discussion forever.

The problem is that some ppl think that reapplying poison is working like it should.
Mythic made it a dot that ticks 5 times in 20s, not a damage add that is always available with each swing.

So yes, it`s a flawed game mechanic that is heavily abused and it will be changed into something good, i hope.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:29 AM by Mauriac
Numatic wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:22 AM
Here's the thing about the drag and drop bug that became a feature.

Think about this from a dev perspective. No dev in his right mind is going to create a "feature" like this. If a dev came out and said "to be able to compete we are forcing assasins to drag and drop their pre poisoned weapons after every swing to boost their damage with extra lifebane ticks" they would be reamed out by the community. Dont fool yourself into believing that this exploit was intentional or kept to make you "play your class better". It was kept because assasins at the time were struggling while others who mastered this exploit were doing fine. So instead of a mass of buff assasin whines, other players pointed at the exploit and said "get gud" therefore taking care of the problem for the devs.

The /switch macro just exacerbated the issue. To say that you're a better player because you should be allowed to abuse a bug over every other class that doesnt require doing anything remotely like it (maybe except minstrels with their song twisting) is very condescending.

Keeping the drag and drop feature and removing /switch wont fix the issue. It will simply open the gap between people who want to abuse the bug for extra damage and those who are annoyed at having to do that to compete.

i'll totally agree with you IF I simply got to see one thing

A list of all the other "exploits" in the game that every other class gets to abuse

Celtic Dual side stun (when is that going to be 'fixed'
Hib LW and VW backstun - when is that going to be 'fixed'
Mincer / Skald / Paladin chant twisting - when is that going to be 'fixed'

Or how about just bad game ideas aka bard amnesia on an instant short cooldown

There are literally dozens of other "exploits" in the game that have been abused by players for years. I call straight BS because so far the only class getting the custom fix treatment are assassins which coincidentally are the only class that

a) non sneaks and
b) terrible sneaks who get destroyed because they're either too lazy or too incompetent to wpn swap

whine about over and over. once again. every server and every version of daoc people whine about assassins and once again they're the smallest group of players getting targeted for custom crap because of all the whining. at this point, maybe we should just completely redesign all the classes since no one can agree on what is a game mechanic and what is an exploit (apart from a game mechanic is something you like / favors you and and exploit is something you don't like / doesn't favor you).

I've said all I can say. I already know how this will play out for assassins because it's a massive DPS nerf, i don't need to see it and watch myself get obliterated by more RR3 melee rangers with vastly superior damage tables to know that i'm going to get my ass kicked harder and more often and that targets that i MIGHT have been able to beat now will flat out become impossible (aka anything with IP) so i'll just be relegated to killing other sneaks (if my purge is up) and solo casters (if my purge is up). to even be able to touch half these classes i mention above it was already a requirement to run a combined forces pot + s/c charge + d/q charge + af charge because as an SB, the damage tables so royally screw you that you need every possible feature to even compete, especially sub RR6. This DPS nerf is going to hurt all assassins, particularly SBs hard who already get shafted by damage tables and the lack of being able to spec crush so yeah, i am pretty salty about this. Watch your favorite class get relegated to a sideshow and you probably would too.

There should be a requirement to have at least played an assassin to RR4 before commenting on them because otherwise you literally have no clue, not even the slightest.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:36 AM by Warlay
You blame other exploits and whine about the fixing of a terrible bug playstile. I never did this exploit and lately I kill everything, so after this fix it change absolute zero for my SB, only that I will be able to kill much more of this low rr buguser which are unable to play their class correctly. See ya Warleay
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:43 AM by Sepplord
Mauriac wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
Numatic wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:22 AM
Here's the thing about the drag and drop bug that became a feature.

Think about this from a dev perspective. No dev in his right mind is going to create a "feature" like this. If a dev came out and said "to be able to compete we are forcing assasins to drag and drop their pre poisoned weapons after every swing to boost their damage with extra lifebane ticks" they would be reamed out by the community. Dont fool yourself into believing that this exploit was intentional or kept to make you "play your class better". It was kept because assasins at the time were struggling while others who mastered this exploit were doing fine. So instead of a mass of buff assasin whines, other players pointed at the exploit and said "get gud" therefore taking care of the problem for the devs.

The /switch macro just exacerbated the issue. To say that you're a better player because you should be allowed to abuse a bug over every other class that doesnt require doing anything remotely like it (maybe except minstrels with their song twisting) is very condescending.

Keeping the drag and drop feature and removing /switch wont fix the issue. It will simply open the gap between people who want to abuse the bug for extra damage and those who are annoyed at having to do that to compete.

i'll totally agree with you IF I simply got to see one thing

A list of all the other "exploits" in the game that every other class gets to abuse

Celtic Dual side stun (when is that going to be 'fixed'
Hib LW and VW backstun - when is that going to be 'fixed'
Mincer / Skald / Paladin chant twisting - when is that going to be 'fixed'

Or how about just bad game ideas aka bard amnesia on an instant short cooldown

There are literally dozens of other "exploits" in the game that have been abused by players for years. I call straight BS because so far the only class getting the custom fix treatment are assassins which coincidentally are the only class that

a) non sneaks and
b) terrible sneaks who get destroyed because they're either too lazy or too incompetent to wpn swap

whine about over and over. once again. every server and every version of daoc people whine about assassins and once again they're the smallest group of players getting targeted for custom crap because of all the whining. at this point, maybe we should just completely redesign all the classes since no one can agree on what is a game mechanic and what is an exploit (apart from a game mechanic is something you like / favors you and and exploit is something you don't like / doesn't favor you).

I've said all I can say. I already know how this will play out for assassins because it's a massive DPS nerf, i don't need to see it and watch myself get obliterated by more RR3 melee rangers with vastly superior damage tables to know that i'm going to get my ass kicked harder and more often and that targets that i MIGHT have been able to beat now will flat out become impossible (aka anything with IP) so i'll just be relegated to killing other sneaks (if my purge is up) and solo casters (if my purge is up). to even be able to touch half these classes i mention above it was already a requirement to run a combined forces pot + s/c charge + d/q charge + af charge because as an SB, the damage tables so royally screw you that you need every possible feature to even compete, especially sub RR6. This DPS nerf is going to hurt all assassins, particularly SBs hard who already get shafted by damage tables and the lack of being able to spec crush so yeah, i am pretty salty about this. Watch your favorite class get relegated to a sideshow and you probably would too.

There should be a requirement to have at least played an assassin to RR4 before commenting on them because otherwise you literally have no clue, not even the slightest.

I can see why you are angry and frustrated, but just as you want people to have played an assassin to RR4 before commenting, having a check before posting about the current state of mind would make just as much sense. Your comment is littered with emotional asumptions and insults, and while i can see where it is coming from, it doesn't help the discussion or your arguments at all.

Try to look at the bright side, having this removed opens up the balance discussion about SBs (and Devs have already confirmed they are watching it) without immediatly getting shut down by "you have 100% swing chance and dots are OP"-arguments. From an SB POV it might have looked like we needed the DOT-DA to compete, but wouldn't that mean it put NS/Inf over the top?
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:53 AM by Numatic
Mauriac wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
Numatic wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:22 AM
Here's the thing about the drag and drop bug that became a feature.

Think about this from a dev perspective. No dev in his right mind is going to create a "feature" like this. If a dev came out and said "to be able to compete we are forcing assasins to drag and drop their pre poisoned weapons after every swing to boost their damage with extra lifebane ticks" they would be reamed out by the community. Dont fool yourself into believing that this exploit was intentional or kept to make you "play your class better". It was kept because assasins at the time were struggling while others who mastered this exploit were doing fine. So instead of a mass of buff assasin whines, other players pointed at the exploit and said "get gud" therefore taking care of the problem for the devs.

The /switch macro just exacerbated the issue. To say that you're a better player because you should be allowed to abuse a bug over every other class that doesnt require doing anything remotely like it (maybe except minstrels with their song twisting) is very condescending.

Keeping the drag and drop feature and removing /switch wont fix the issue. It will simply open the gap between people who want to abuse the bug for extra damage and those who are annoyed at having to do that to compete.

i'll totally agree with you IF I simply got to see one thing

A list of all the other "exploits" in the game that every other class gets to abuse

Celtic Dual side stun (when is that going to be 'fixed'
Hib LW and VW backstun - when is that going to be 'fixed'
Mincer / Skald / Paladin chant twisting - when is that going to be 'fixed'

Or how about just bad game ideas aka bard amnesia on an instant short cooldown

There are literally dozens of other "exploits" in the game that have been abused by players for years. I call straight BS because so far the only class getting the custom fix treatment are assassins which coincidentally are the only class that

a) non sneaks and
b) terrible sneaks who get destroyed because they're either too lazy or too incompetent to wpn swap

whine about over and over. once again. every server and every version of daoc people whine about assassins and once again they're the smallest group of players getting targeted for custom crap because of all the whining. at this point, maybe we should just completely redesign all the classes since no one can agree on what is a game mechanic and what is an exploit (apart from a game mechanic is something you like / favors you and and exploit is something you don't like / doesn't favor you).

I've said all I can say. I already know how this will play out for assassins because it's a massive DPS nerf, i don't need to see it and watch myself get obliterated by more RR3 melee rangers with vastly superior damage tables to know that i'm going to get my ass kicked harder and more often and that targets that i MIGHT have been able to beat now will flat out become impossible (aka anything with IP) so i'll just be relegated to killing other sneaks (if my purge is up) and solo casters (if my purge is up). to even be able to touch half these classes i mention above it was already a requirement to run a combined forces pot + s/c charge + d/q charge + af charge because as an SB, the damage tables so royally screw you that you need every possible feature to even compete, especially sub RR6. This DPS nerf is going to hurt all assassins, particularly SBs hard who already get shafted by damage tables and the lack of being able to spec crush so yeah, i am pretty salty about this. Watch your favorite class get relegated to a sideshow and you probably would too.

There should be a requirement to have at least played an assassin to RR4 before commenting on them because otherwise you literally have no clue, not even the slightest.

So your entire arguement relies on the fact that since other classes can exploit certain bugs, assasins should be able to as well?

You're right, other classes do have exploits. But the difference is assasins were allowed to have it as a way of artificially increasing their dps to avoid actually fixing them. I do NOT agree with taking this away however and not giving us viper at it's old values. While it doesnt entirely make up for it, I believe it would soften the blow and still keep their viability.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:36 PM by dante`afk
The change will increase TTK (time to kill), forcing players to use vanish more often since they are more prone to get added (as if the instant port and constant zerg is not causing vulnerability enough), or forcing players to be more selective on targets. Rangers will become impossible, pretty much anything but casters and other assassins will become very difficult to deal with (as for a SB at least)

Expect visis to cry more about vanish use.


As effective as the switch macro command is, I think effectively only 10-20% of assassin player base use it properly. Sooo.. still waiting for the detailed testing and analysis that has been done in the background to prove this is not a bend the knee change resulting out of crying forum users who barely know their class and go untemplated into rvr.

"Oh I keep dieing to assasins, oh they have that poison switch exploit, that's why ohhh that makes sense" yea that's the only reason, not your playstyle, not your positioning, not your general awareness etc.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:50 PM by Ashenspire
You can't call for testing data then pull numbers out of thin air yourself. Doesn't work that way.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:06 PM by dante`afk
Ashenspire wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:50 PM
You can't call for testing data then pull numbers out of thin air yourself. Doesn't work that way.

Is that so? Who's the server admin here, who has the backlogs and data?

Oh right.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:11 PM by Victos
I think the reapplication is simply the result of a consistent implementation of the dot mechanic throughout the whole game, as far as I know all casted dots do also tick at application (can't test it right now though). So either this was simply intended consistent design or an oversight, I don't know.

I liked switching by hand and did so for years, in my opinion this set the good assassins apart from the bad ones. To me saying people who understand and use a mechanic "not knowing how to play their class" is completely nonsense. A good assassin knew how to switch weapons by hand in conjuction with everything else an assassin has to worry about in a fight. Try to turn your char with right clicked mouse all while you're switching weapons.

Calling people like these "bad players" especially when I see people here praising videos of people - clicking skills - in 2019 is absolutely hilarious.

BUT and that's quite a big BUT:
No one, no matter how good, is able to consistently switch two weapons at 1.5s swingspeed by hand while concentrating on the ongoing fight and making the right decisions. /switch made that possible and highly exploitable though.

Using 1.5s swingspeed in both scenarios means over a time of 21 seconds we're looking at:
6 ticks in 21 seconds (first tick + 1 tick every 4 seconds)
VS
(Time/SwingSpeed+InitialHit)*HitsPerSwing
(21/1.5+1)*2 = 30 applications for a SB

So it's 6vs30 (which means 4/5 or 80% reduction when going from 30 to 6) given a - perfect - scenario.

Now as offhand can miss/blocked/evaded/parried/fumble and dots can be resisted, the difference in practice isn't actually 80% as the following ticks of 1 dot don't have to go through any of those mechanics again after being applied.

I think changing /switch and adjusting poison damage if needed would've been a better solution though as I see switching by hand as a combat mechanic, another skill to master if you will.

Removing the reapplication mechanic as it is closes the gap between good and bad players, reapplication is now hitting a single button instead of in-combat inventory management.

Now as said before, removing the first tick on reapplication is a solution nontheless and poison damage can be adjusted if needed. So the end result - when it comes to damage - is the same, it will be in balance at some point.

The only difference here is players who didn't switch before the change don't even realize there will be one. Players who abused /switch while never switching before that will suddenly find that they're actually not the "good" players they thought they were, they simply got carried by an abusable macro.
And the players who actually switched by hand, players who enjoyed the "Ciliviel" (not that he was the only one, just quite a popular player) playstyle if you will, will find that their playstyle has changed from high interactive to hitting 3 buttons. (With /switch still in place, 2 extra button presses allow the reapplication of 4 poisons after purge given the rules of 3rd party software)

TL;DR:
Casuals (the majority of players I would guess) will be fine and abusers will be put in their place. The only group of players that gets really hit by the nerf consists of players (like myself) who were "masochistic" enough to enjoy the manual playstyle.

I myself (and some people I know who liked it) just quit assassins as it will not be what we enjoy about the classes.

As I would guess the group that includes myself is quite a small one I'm still agreeing to the nerf as the devs have to consider the whole player base and not only a small fraction of it. Something has/had to be done to the ridiculous "roll your fingers and dump a full stack of envenom onto your opponent"-playstyle.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:02 PM by Ashenspire
dante`afk wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:06 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:50 PM
You can't call for testing data then pull numbers out of thin air yourself. Doesn't work that way.

Is that so? Who's the server admin here, who has the backlogs and data?

Oh right.

"I think 10-20%" What you think is irrelevant, as these numbers, again, are pulled out of the air. Your feelings on the matter don't give weight to your argument one way or the other.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:21 PM by Joc
Afuldan wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:18 AM
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:15 AM
dante`afk wrote:
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:21 PM
turns out he's a friar: https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Niightwish

dimwit



I'd like to know the results of the internal testing that has been made for that decision too?

Looks like Dante beat me to it.

Turns out “the Friar Guy” is a Friar after all. God forbid people make suggestions and comments on a topic experiencing BOTH sides of the argument.

My Friar is 4L5 and my Shadowblade is not even 50 yet. Your attempt to invalidate my arguments, because I happened to have a SB alt, only shows that you are looking for any reason to flat out dismiss the side I am defending. Once my SB is 50 I am hoping to do some tests to further produce actual numbers in regards to DPS and TTK differences between swapping poisons with /swap and only refreshing it when they run out.

Nice try though big fella.

The issue wasn’t that /switched or click and dropped weapons reapply poisons. The issue was that the DoT poisons were ticking on being reapplied, which led to Lifebane ticking every combat round.

Which is how its been since release.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:48 PM by Padatoo
Victos wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:11 PM
"roll your fingers and dump a full stack of envenom onto your opponent"-playstyle.

Its far simplier then even "rolling fingers" - AHK supports variables and so it is possible to create a macro that goes through all the weapons in your backpack while spamming the same single button.
Something like this:

SEND {Numpad%wepCount%}
wepCount++
if (wepCount=10)
{
wepCount:=1
}

Its illegal ofcourse ,but I havent seen any switch-abusing NS banned for it yet.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:12 PM by Sepplord
Joc wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
Which is how its been since release.

Which is not a good argument
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:15 PM by Sepplord
Padatoo wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:48 PM
Victos wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:11 PM
"roll your fingers and dump a full stack of envenom onto your opponent"-playstyle.

Its far simplier then even "rolling fingers" - AHK supports variables and so it is possible to create a macro that goes through all the weapons in your backpack while spamming the same single button.
Something like this:

SEND {Numpad%wepCount%}
wepCount++
if (wepCount=10)
{
wepCount:=1
}

Its illegal ofcourse ,but I havent seen any switch-abusing NS banned for it yet.

how do you they are using that and not pressing different buttons?

OR

Having the exact functionality, but with a loop counter that counts up with every button press, which would be allowed...

Please, don't scream exploiter / cheater etc. without substantial proof, there are already enough people seeing radar and other cheats everywhere and imo, THAT is a problem almost as huge as the actual cheating happening
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:23 PM by Druth
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:12 PM
Joc wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
Which is how its been since release.

Which is not a good argument

Two features at this patch lvl in DaoC, that Phoenix team removed (will remove):

Pets following even into stealth, never losing target. No complaints (not even from pet classes...).
Reaply poison on every swing, acting as perma AotG Dam Add. Bad change.


Who's the resonable group of people?

Will also add, that removing /swicth would not have changed a damn thing, because seems like every assassin used drag/drop weapon, or at the very least used to do so back in 2001...
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:33 PM by Sepplord
Druth wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:23 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:12 PM
Joc wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
Which is how its been since release.

Which is not a good argument

Two features at this patch lvl in DaoC, that Phoenix team removed (will remove):

Pets following even into stealth, never losing target. No complaints (not even from pet classes...).
Reaply poison on every swing, acting as perma AotG Dam Add. Bad change.


Who's the resonable group of people?

Will also add, that removing /swicth would not have changed a damn thing, because seems like every assassin used drag/drop weapon, or at the very least used to do so back in 2001...

Since you quoted me i believe my comment was misunderstood. I wasn't trying to argue for or against anyside.
I just wanted to point out that "it's always been like that" is the worst argument ever to be made. Yet it seems to be a really popular one.
Everything has always been like it was...until it got changed.

Everytime i read "it's always been like that" it translates to "i have no argument to make but i don't want to change my PoV regardless" in my head
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:37 PM by Victos
Druth wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:23 PM
Will also add, that removing /swicth would not have changed a damn thing, because seems like every assassin used drag/drop weapon, or at the very least used to do so back in 2001...

It would've changed quite a bit.
First of all not all assassins switch weapons to reapply the dot, you can even watch some videos of the higher assassins of this server. Meggles for example did not switch all that often.
Secondly there are physical limitations /switch bypasses, I doubt there is even a single assassin on this server who switches 2 weapons at once every 1.5s while maintaining control over the character, hell I doubt there is even one who switches 2 weapons at 1.5s swingspeed at all.

Switching weapons was done since 2001 yes, but surely not switching both weapons at the attack speed cap. Most assassins I know or have fought against within 17+ years of playing, including myself, that switch at all only switched their main hand.

This means by removing /switch the damage in an ideal scenario (2 weapons 100% of the time) would've been cut in half. And on top of that I assume most assassins who do switch by hand would've changed to slower mainhand weapons as switching every 1.5s is tedious.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:38 PM by Druth
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
Since you quoted me i believe my comment was misunderstood. I wasn't trying to argue for or against anyside.
I just wanted to point out that "it's always been like that" is the worst argument ever to be made. Yet it seems to be a really popular one.
Everything has always been like it was...until it got changed.

Everytime i read "it's always been like that" it translates to "i have no argument to make but i don't want to change my PoV regardless" in my head

I agree.

I was just trying to show the hypocracy that people who use this argument shows, it's only changes that hurt them that the argument gets applied on when they run out of other arguments.
Unless you are a purist (and then why are you on this server...???), the argument is invalid.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:46 PM by Druth
Victos wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:37 PM
It would've changed quite a bit.
First of all not all assassins switch weapons to reapply the dot, you can even watch some videos of the higher assassins of this server. Meggles for example did not switch all that often.

My point was sarcastic, because it seems every assassin that posts about seems to have the urge to point out that: "I did not use /switch" or "I used to drag/drop back in 2001".

They should have spend more time getting /switch removed, before this announcement came out.
Instead their focus has been "Don't run in straight line" and "Get better".

DaoC has always rewarded being proactive about "fixing" broken stuff about your class, because otherwise it usually ends up being a massive nerf-bat that hits them. When the announcement hits, it's to late to suddenly come up with tons of creative ideas.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:01 PM by Victos
Druth wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:46 PM
Victos wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:37 PM
It would've changed quite a bit.
First of all not all assassins switch weapons to reapply the dot, you can even watch some videos of the higher assassins of this server. Meggles for example did not switch all that often.

My point was sarcastic, because it seems every assassin that posts about seems to have the urge to point out that: "I did not use /switch" or "I used to drag/drop back in 2001".

They should have spend more time getting /switch removed, before this announcement came out.
Instead their focus has been "Don't run in straight line" and "Get better".

DaoC has always rewarded being proactive about "fixing" broken stuff about your class, because otherwise it usually ends up being a massive nerf-bat that hits them. When the announcement hits, it's to late to suddenly come up with tons of creative ideas.

Oh ok, took your post literally, sarcasm is sometimes hard to notice.

When I started posting here (before the announcement) I mentioned /switch being a problem but got immediately confronted with the simpler solution. Some also mentioned /switch but no one actually spent time suggesting a solution. So I guess you're right when you say there should've been a constructive discussion about /switch before one of the simpler solutions gets picked.

As a solution needed to be found and no other solution besides the trivial one was suggested, besides removing /switch entirely which I guess people don't like, we ended up right where we are now. (I don't know why people even wanted /switch as I've never felt the need for such a macro to begin with, but that's again just me)
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:35 PM by dante`afk
Ashenspire wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:02 PM
dante`afk wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:06 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:50 PM
You can't call for testing data then pull numbers out of thin air yourself. Doesn't work that way.

Is that so? Who's the server admin here, who has the backlogs and data?

Oh right.

"I think 10-20%" What you think is irrelevant, as these numbers, again, are pulled out of the air. Your feelings on the matter don't give weight to your argument one way or the other.

It's not an argument, it's a question. You can simply ignore my assumption of those 10-20% and still ask for data.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:39 PM by Ashenspire
dante`afk wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:35 PM
Ashenspire wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:02 PM
dante`afk wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:06 PM
Is that so? Who's the server admin here, who has the backlogs and data?

Oh right.

"I think 10-20%" What you think is irrelevant, as these numbers, again, are pulled out of the air. Your feelings on the matter don't give weight to your argument one way or the other.

It's not an argument, it's a question. You can simply ignore my assumption of those 10-20% and still ask for data.

Except you can't, and it was an argument. You posed it as "not that many people even do this so I don't understand how it's a problem." There's a huge flaw in there.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 4:44 PM by dante`afk
You are a) misinterpreting and b) false quoting.

Go back 2 pages and read again. And this becomes off-topic now, PM me if you want to continue with the circle jerk.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:32 PM by Joc
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
Druth wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:23 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:12 PM
Which is not a good argument

Two features at this patch lvl in DaoC, that Phoenix team removed (will remove):

Pets following even into stealth, never losing target. No complaints (not even from pet classes...).
Reaply poison on every swing, acting as perma AotG Dam Add. Bad change.


Who's the resonable group of people?

Will also add, that removing /swicth would not have changed a damn thing, because seems like every assassin used drag/drop weapon, or at the very least used to do so back in 2001...

Since you quoted me i believe my comment was misunderstood. I wasn't trying to argue for or against anyside.
I just wanted to point out that "it's always been like that" is the worst argument ever to be made. Yet it seems to be a really popular one.
Everything has always been like it was...until it got changed.

Everytime i read "it's always been like that" it translates to "i have no argument to make but i don't want to change my PoV regardless" in my head
ok fair enough. I'll agree that argument doesn't hold weight on a custom server.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:32 PM by Afuldan
Joc wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 2:21 PM
Afuldan wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:18 AM
Nightwish wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 12:15 AM
Looks like Dante beat me to it.

Turns out “the Friar Guy” is a Friar after all. God forbid people make suggestions and comments on a topic experiencing BOTH sides of the argument.

My Friar is 4L5 and my Shadowblade is not even 50 yet. Your attempt to invalidate my arguments, because I happened to have a SB alt, only shows that you are looking for any reason to flat out dismiss the side I am defending. Once my SB is 50 I am hoping to do some tests to further produce actual numbers in regards to DPS and TTK differences between swapping poisons with /swap and only refreshing it when they run out.

Nice try though big fella.

The issue wasn’t that /switched or click and dropped weapons reapply poisons. The issue was that the DoT poisons were ticking on being reapplied, which led to Lifebane ticking every combat round.

Which is how its been since release.

Oh? I could have sworn that it would just refresh.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:33 PM by Padatoo
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:15 PM
how do you they are using that and not pressing different buttons?

Its not a full script - you put these lines after the activation of a desired key - same-single key or different ones.
Would you just believe me that it works?I am not the empty-words type


22 PAGES,WOOHOO
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by Victos
Afuldan wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:32 PM
Oh? I could have sworn that it would just refresh.

Well then you would've been mistaken, poisons were used like that since the very beginning, just without a /switch macro.

https://youtu.be/uCgq3d5xYvo

This is an old Ciliviel video, granted it's not classic anymore but nothing changed between classic and toa anyways.

You can clearly see him switch multiple weapons and see them tick right away. Also various others and myself have used that technique since the beginning aswell.
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:45 PM by Sepplord
Padatoo wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 5:33 PM
Sepplord wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:15 PM
how do you they are using that and not pressing different buttons?

Its not a full script - you put these lines after the activation of a desired key - same-single key or different ones.
Would you just believe me that it works?I am not the empty-words type


22 PAGES,WOOHOO

I believe you that it works, much more crazy Stuff exists. My question was how you know specific enemies are using it. Especially since it would be possible to make a legal Macro in this Server that does the same thing as long as you put the weapons in the same Spots all the time
Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:28 PM by Stimmed
Druth wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:46 PM
Victos wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 3:37 PM
It would've changed quite a bit.
First of all not all assassins switch weapons to reapply the dot, you can even watch some videos of the higher assassins of this server. Meggles for example did not switch all that often.

My point was sarcastic, because it seems every assassin that posts about seems to have the urge to point out that: "I did not use /switch" or "I used to drag/drop back in 2001".

They should have spend more time getting /switch removed, before this announcement came out.
Instead their focus has been "Don't run in straight line" and "Get better".

DaoC has always rewarded being proactive about "fixing" broken stuff about your class, because otherwise it usually ends up being a massive nerf-bat that hits them. When the announcement hits, it's to late to suddenly come up with tons of creative ideas.

First Few videos I just did not have the money for the weapons to swap to alot of the time lol (and TBH didnt realise how strong it was). last 2-3 I swap almost every swing specially in the DW videos where I changed alot of keys and farmed for more weapons so I had 5 Pairs of poison swaps to come in which both usually hit now with 80odd % DW chance. I played plenty of assassins over the long daoc time and did the drag and drop with mouse etc. But you couldn't do MH/OH instantly (or I didnt know how to lol). Switch is very very helpfull. And like alot have pointed out if that was just changed for assassins rather then nerf poisons would prolly be a better way to do it. But oh well casters will still die the same as will most tanks. The nerf wont change a thing for majority of the ppl.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 12:53 AM by Stoertebecker
Stimmed wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 10:28 PM
But oh well casters will still die the same as will most tanks. The nerf wont change a thing for majority of the ppl.

Thats correct, and assassins will be kos, no matter what.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:18 AM by Mauriac
Victos wrote:
Thu 7 Mar 2019 1:11 PM
I think the reapplication is simply the result of a consistent implementation of the dot mechanic throughout the whole game, as far as I know all casted dots do also tick at application (can't test it right now though). So either this was simply intended consistent design or an oversight, I don't know.

I liked switching by hand and did so for years, in my opinion this set the good assassins apart from the bad ones. To me saying people who understand and use a mechanic "not knowing how to play their class" is completely nonsense. A good assassin knew how to switch weapons by hand in conjuction with everything else an assassin has to worry about in a fight. Try to turn your char with right clicked mouse all while you're switching weapons.

Calling people like these "bad players" especially when I see people here praising videos of people - clicking skills - in 2019 is absolutely hilarious.

BUT and that's quite a big BUT:
No one, no matter how good, is able to consistently switch two weapons at 1.5s swingspeed by hand while concentrating on the ongoing fight and making the right decisions. /switch made that possible and highly exploitable though.

Using 1.5s swingspeed in both scenarios means over a time of 21 seconds we're looking at:
6 ticks in 21 seconds (first tick + 1 tick every 4 seconds)
VS
(Time/SwingSpeed+InitialHit)*HitsPerSwing
(21/1.5+1)*2 = 30 applications for a SB

So it's 6vs30 (which means 4/5 or 80% reduction when going from 30 to 6) given a - perfect - scenario.

Now as offhand can miss/blocked/evaded/parried/fumble and dots can be resisted, the difference in practice isn't actually 80% as the following ticks of 1 dot don't have to go through any of those mechanics again after being applied.

I think changing /switch and adjusting poison damage if needed would've been a better solution though as I see switching by hand as a combat mechanic, another skill to master if you will.

Removing the reapplication mechanic as it is closes the gap between good and bad players, reapplication is now hitting a single button instead of in-combat inventory management.

Now as said before, removing the first tick on reapplication is a solution nontheless and poison damage can be adjusted if needed. So the end result - when it comes to damage - is the same, it will be in balance at some point.

The only difference here is players who didn't switch before the change don't even realize there will be one. Players who abused /switch while never switching before that will suddenly find that they're actually not the "good" players they thought they were, they simply got carried by an abusable macro.
And the players who actually switched by hand, players who enjoyed the "Ciliviel" (not that he was the only one, just quite a popular player) playstyle if you will, will find that their playstyle has changed from high interactive to hitting 3 buttons. (With /switch still in place, 2 extra button presses allow the reapplication of 4 poisons after purge given the rules of 3rd party software)

TL;DR:
Casuals (the majority of players I would guess) will be fine and abusers will be put in their place. The only group of players that gets really hit by the nerf consists of players (like myself) who were "masochistic" enough to enjoy the manual playstyle.

I myself (and some people I know who liked it) just quit assassins as it will not be what we enjoy about the classes.

As I would guess the group that includes myself is quite a small one I'm still agreeing to the nerf as the devs have to consider the whole player base and not only a small fraction of it. Something has/had to be done to the ridiculous "roll your fingers and dump a full stack of envenom onto your opponent"-playstyle.

well said and spot on.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:41 AM by Freedomcall
Actually I didn't realize until today that applying 2 lifebane at 1 swing was possible.
That was the bug which should be fixed.

If an assassin applies lifebane on both MH and OH, and hits enemy at the same time,
lifebane from MH should work while OH should resist saying, "Target already has that effect!"
So only 1 dot max per 1 swing even thou you hit both with MH/OH.
This is how it worked at 1.65 afaik and how it works in Uthgard currently.

So the problem was there, not switching weapons/reapplying dots every swing itself imo....

And I totally agree with the comment above.
Rather, just remove /switch qol and make assasins do it manually with mouse clicks.
Weapon swapping was always a thing for assassins in DAoC which was one of the indicators of a "good player".
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:52 AM by Tillbeast
At end of day numbers are just numbers. I would like to ask the assassin community one question.

What classes can you not kill now that you could before the changes to lw/cd/dw, viper and how dots worked were made?

Only class I can think off is light mpds tanks like the zerker, Merc, savage and bm. Assassins may now lack the sustained dps required to race them once the initial hit has happened. However tanks of any type should never have been an assassins target in first place, it was only because they could stack poison dots that gave them ability to keep up with those classes dps.

I am just interested to find out what classes now can beat an assassin after a PA that could not before.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 12:23 PM by Mauriac
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:52 AM
At end of day numbers are just numbers. I would like to ask the assassin community one question.

What classes can you not kill now that you could before the changes to lw/cd/dw, viper and how dots worked were made?

Only class I can think off is light mpds tanks like the zerker, Merc, savage and bm. Assassins may now lack the sustained dps required to race them once the initial hit has happened. However tanks of any type should never have been an assassins target in first place, it was only because they could stack poison dots that gave them ability to keep up with those classes dps.

I am just interested to find out what classes now can beat an assassin after a PA that could not before.

Depends on situation as some classes are hard to PA such as archers (no see hidden here which is a good thing imo). To answer your question, melee rangers are king, especially against SB. Saw an SB lose to a scout last night as well (that block rate)

As for others yeah basically merc, reaver, bm are almost impossible now unless brand new RR. Not sure about zerk or Sav as I play an SB and they don't shield slam so I couldn't tell you there. I imagine skalds are a lot harder. Also minstrels are basically impossible now as their damage from instants is impossible to keep up with without swapping. Not to mention if they have IP you're completely screwed.

Other classes are the same as before except worse. Friars.... Lol. Armsmen, Champs, heros, VW, just nope. I would only try a VW if they were very low RR. The others it's a waste of time to try unless you know they're unbuffed and you are.

It's a pretty big damage nerf as they obviously intended. And yeah, it's very noticeable, especially if you're already not high RR.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:34 PM by Victos
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:52 AM
At end of day numbers are just numbers. I would like to ask the assassin community one question.

This to me was the whole point of the discussion and, depending on the viewpoint, not exactly right.

While the nerf (the damage reduction) will at the end just be a number, the game mechanic itself that got patched out is not.

To me personally it never was about what I can and couldn't kill. This is DAoC, if you're not dead within 3 hits then there is still potential to win, you don't have to fight straight up against classes that are superior. I've kited superior classes for years, used FA as a kind of IP, abused ladders in NF or other means of breaking LOS - this is what's fun to me. To me players who use all game mechanics available - without breaking rules - are superior players.

To me it always is about the gameplay of the class. I would play an inferior class granted the gameplay is what I enjoy and I can see outplay-potential.

Sitting in front of each other, drawing weapons and praying to RNGesus to win isn't exactly what I would call enjoyable gameplay.

Now this change didn't affect everything I said and it doesn't change the gameplay completely but to me it changed it enough to not like the gameplay anymore.

To the point about classes: I can't speak of any specific classes but I think the easy fights (casters) will stay easy, most fights will remain about the same but with higher TTK and hard ones will be very hard ti borderline impossible (minstrels).

All in all I doubt the majority of assassins even feels the nerf, simply because I don't think the ratio of good and bad players changed much. The casual group of players will just continue to play as if nothing happened, because to them indeed nothing did happen.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:36 PM by dante`afk
Victos wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:34 PM
To me personally it never was about what I can and couldn't kill. This is DAoC, if you're not dead within 3 hits then there is still potential to win, you don't have to fight straight up against classes that are superior. I've kited superior classes for years, used FA as a kind of IP, abused ladders in NF or other means of breaking LOS - this is what's fun to me. To me players who use all game mechanics available - without breaking rules - are superior players.

To me it always is about the gameplay of the class. I would play an inferior class granted the gameplay is what I enjoy and I can see outplay-potential.


exactly this, playing an assasin now seems utterly boring. there's like nothing to do but watch how it plays out.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 1:45 PM by dbeattie71
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:52 AM
At end of day numbers are just numbers. I would like to ask the assassin community one question.

What classes can you not kill now that you could before the changes to lw/cd/dw, viper and how dots worked were made?

Only class I can think off is light mpds tanks like the zerker, Merc, savage and bm. Assassins may now lack the sustained dps required to race them once the initial hit has happened. However tanks of any type should never have been an assassins target in first place, it was only because they could stack poison dots that gave them ability to keep up with those classes dps.

I am just interested to find out what classes now can beat an assassin after a PA that could not before.

This isn’t really related but I stay away from BDs and Necros. I’d rather fight a warrior than a Necro.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:26 PM by Tillbeast
It seems to me then with those replies nothing has changed. Targets that were valid before are just as valid now although may take a swing or two more and the ones you avoided you still avoid. Only comment I disagree with is not being able to PA an archer. This is ridicoulously easy with the detection range advantage assassins have and no melee archer is king vs any assassin unless they significantly out RR the assassin. However I agree a ranger is best equipped to deal with an assassin but assassin will win more often than not and a rangers biggest advantage vs assassins is they don't face nightshades...but then again nightshades don't face rangers either.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 4:17 PM by Mauriac
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:26 PM
It seems to me then with those replies nothing has changed. Targets that were valid before are just as valid now although may take a swing or two more and the ones you avoided you still avoid. Only comment I disagree with is not being able to PA an archer. This is ridicoulously easy with the detection range advantage assassins have and no melee archer is king vs any assassin unless they significantly out RR the assassin. However I agree a ranger is best equipped to deal with an assassin but assassin will win more often than not and a rangers biggest advantage vs assassins is they don't face nightshades...but then again nightshades don't face rangers either.

You are incorrect good sir. Detection range for assassins over archers is 100 UNITS extra. That's like 80 percent of melee range, not what I'd call a huge advantage. Remember, there is no see hidden or camo here and MoS only effects move speed and its granted to all stealth users in their stealth spec. So yeah it is actually a lot harder than you think go PA an archer because the detection range is very short AND you almost NEVER detect them while walking straight into each other. It is almost always at some oblique angle or after you're past each other and there is no time to reposition before either they move out of detection or just hit you since they can open without needing to be in 120 arc in front of you (slam for scouts, side stun or anytime for ranger).

Regarding your comment that all else is the same, see what I wrote above. Since assassins don't have IP (and I don't think k ever should) they have to burn most of their targets down twice in many instances. Light tanks in particular were always hard but doable. The DPS nerf means that most of the time they don't even need IP to out damage you now.

And before anyone responds with "but assassins were never meant to beat light tanks" I'll just ask, where are you finding this knowledge of how the game was designed? If light tanks were meant to be the penultimate 1v1 class then I surmise sneaks wouldn't even be in the game. Assassins sole role is to kill single targets. Light tanks naturally synergize with other group classes while assassins don't at all. Assassins biggest strength is killing single SOLO targets so I would strongly disagree that an assassin shouldn't even have a chance in a 1v1 scenario versus a SOLO light tank IF the assassin is able to open with PA.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 6:29 PM by Cirath
Mauriac wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 4:17 PM
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:26 PM
It seems to me then with those replies nothing has changed. Targets that were valid before are just as valid now although may take a swing or two more and the ones you avoided you still avoid. Only comment I disagree with is not being able to PA an archer. This is ridicoulously easy with the detection range advantage assassins have and no melee archer is king vs any assassin unless they significantly out RR the assassin. However I agree a ranger is best equipped to deal with an assassin but assassin will win more often than not and a rangers biggest advantage vs assassins is they don't face nightshades...but then again nightshades don't face rangers either.

You are incorrect good sir. Detection range for assassins over archers is 100 UNITS extra.

This. Some people in this thread and others make it sound like assasins are seeing archers and minstrels from miles away, which simply isn't true. Use your range advantage as an archer. You dont need to be in a common travel path to engage, so don't be. If you hang around in predictable locations like MG's and small hills overlooking flags you are going to be found, especially with the number of stealthers on relatively small areas here.

Archers have an engagement window 10 times the size of assassins, why should they have the SAME detection range in stealth? A smart archer in the open frontier is almost impossible to find. Some noob sitting in the same spot on the zone wall at DL where he's just killed 3 people in a row from? not so much.

Some would say bow damage here is sub par. I don't know, it might be. However, that is irrelevant to the detection distance issue.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:02 PM by Kimahri
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:52 AM
At end of day numbers are just numbers. I would like to ask the assassin community one question.

What classes can you not kill now that you could before the changes to lw/cd/dw, viper and how dots worked were made?

Only class I can think off is light mpds tanks like the zerker, Merc, savage and bm. Assassins may now lack the sustained dps required to race them once the initial hit has happened. However tanks of any type should never have been an assassins target in first place, it was only because they could stack poison dots that gave them ability to keep up with those classes dps.

I am just interested to find out what classes now can beat an assassin after a PA that could not before.

Before the nerf, the only class I wouldn't hit was a necromancer. After the nerf, I still don't hit necromancers because its suicide, however I also avoid higher RR armsman, friar, mercenary, reaver, blademaster, champion, and hero because its not worth the risk of death or wasting purge/vanish.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:48 PM by Tillbeast
Cirath wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 6:29 PM
Mauriac wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 4:17 PM
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:26 PM
It seems to me then with those replies nothing has changed. Targets that were valid before are just as valid now although may take a swing or two more and the ones you avoided you still avoid. Only comment I disagree with is not being able to PA an archer. This is ridicoulously easy with the detection range advantage assassins have and no melee archer is king vs any assassin unless they significantly out RR the assassin. However I agree a ranger is best equipped to deal with an assassin but assassin will win more often than not and a rangers biggest advantage vs assassins is they don't face nightshades...but then again nightshades don't face rangers either.

You are incorrect good sir. Detection range for assassins over archers is 100 UNITS extra.

This. Some people in this thread and others make it sound like assasins are seeing archers and minstrels from miles away, which simply isn't true. Use your range advantage as an archer. You dont need to be in a common travel path to engage, so don't be. If you hang around in predictable locations like MG's and small hills overlooking flags you are going to be found, especially with the number of stealthers on relatively small areas here.

Archers have an engagement window 10 times the size of assassins, why should they have the SAME detection range in stealth? A smart archer in the open frontier is almost impossible to find. Some noob sitting in the same spot on the zone wall at DL where he's just killed 3 people in a row from? not so much.

Some would say bow damage here is sub par. I don't know, it might be. However, that is irrelevant to the detection distance issue.

Yes I can go where there is little chance of an assassin finding me. Problem is there is nothing there to kill. To find my targets I have to go into areas where assassins will be as we hunt similar targets. I believe its 125 difference (may be wrong) assassin detect at 250 range archers at 125 and it is a big advantage, I know as I play both a 50 sb and 50 hunter. No archer has ever gotten first hit on me ever whilst stealthed...its impossible unless assassin is afk or just plain bad. In an open field yep any stealthier is hard to find as is any visible as nobody goes anywhere bar milegates, pks and travel between flags which are all patrolled by assassins. People think assassins just stay stationary near roads or gates but they don't, they wander, they know archers will be hanging around the outskirts of the battle area and go looking for them. The detection radius should be equal.
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:57 PM by Tillbeast
Mauriac wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 4:17 PM
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:26 PM
It seems to me then with those replies nothing has changed. Targets that were valid before are just as valid now although may take a swing or two more and the ones you avoided you still avoid. Only comment I disagree with is not being able to PA an archer. This is ridicoulously easy with the detection range advantage assassins have and no melee archer is king vs any assassin unless they significantly out RR the assassin. However I agree a ranger is best equipped to deal with an assassin but assassin will win more often than not and a rangers biggest advantage vs assassins is they don't face nightshades...but then again nightshades don't face rangers either.

You are incorrect good sir. Detection range for assassins over archers is 100 UNITS extra. That's like 80 percent of melee range, not what I'd call a huge advantage. Remember, there is no see hidden or camo here and MoS only effects move speed and its granted to all stealth users in their stealth spec. So yeah it is actually a lot harder than you think go PA an archer because the detection range is very short AND you almost NEVER detect them while walking straight into each other. It is almost always at some oblique angle or after you're past each other and there is no time to reposition before either they move out of detection or just hit you since they can open without needing to be in 120 arc in front of you (slam for scouts, side stun or anytime for ranger).

Regarding your comment that all else is the same, see what I wrote above. Since assassins don't have IP (and I don't think k ever should) they have to burn most of their targets down twice in many instances. Light tanks in particular were always hard but doable. The DPS nerf means that most of the time they don't even need IP to out damage you now.

And before anyone responds with "but assassins were never meant to beat light tanks" I'll just ask, where are you finding this knowledge of how the game was designed? If light tanks were meant to be the penultimate 1v1 class then I surmise sneaks wouldn't even be in the game. Assassins sole role is to kill single targets. Light tanks naturally synergize with other group classes while assassins don't at all. Assassins biggest strength is killing single SOLO targets so I would strongly disagree that an assassin shouldn't even have a chance in a 1v1 scenario versus a SOLO light tank IF the assassin is able to open with PA.

If assassins are designed to out dps light tanks whats the point in light tanks...be no reason to play them as there role would be covered by assassins. Light tanks are suppose to be the highest dps melee in game over a sustained period of time. An assassins front loaded burst damage initially will be higher but the longer the fight goes on the lower there dps becomes. Stacking DoTs gave assassins the same sustained melee dps light tanks had which should never had been allowed. Assassins are not meant to kill everything and everyone with no fear of dying in a 1 on 1. The targets they do kill 1 on 1 die quickly as designed so they can make a quick escape but anything that hits hard, has good armour and plenty of hp should be avoided. A tank of any kind should find an assassin as annoying as a pidgeon hitting a hgv truck
Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:25 PM by Mauriac
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:57 PM
Mauriac wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 4:17 PM
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 3:26 PM
It seems to me then with those replies nothing has changed. Targets that were valid before are just as valid now although may take a swing or two more and the ones you avoided you still avoid. Only comment I disagree with is not being able to PA an archer. This is ridicoulously easy with the detection range advantage assassins have and no melee archer is king vs any assassin unless they significantly out RR the assassin. However I agree a ranger is best equipped to deal with an assassin but assassin will win more often than not and a rangers biggest advantage vs assassins is they don't face nightshades...but then again nightshades don't face rangers either.

You are incorrect good sir. Detection range for assassins over archers is 100 UNITS extra. That's like 80 percent of melee range, not what I'd call a huge advantage. Remember, there is no see hidden or camo here and MoS only effects move speed and its granted to all stealth users in their stealth spec. So yeah it is actually a lot harder than you think go PA an archer because the detection range is very short AND you almost NEVER detect them while walking straight into each other. It is almost always at some oblique angle or after you're past each other and there is no time to reposition before either they move out of detection or just hit you since they can open without needing to be in 120 arc in front of you (slam for scouts, side stun or anytime for ranger).

Regarding your comment that all else is the same, see what I wrote above. Since assassins don't have IP (and I don't think k ever should) they have to burn most of their targets down twice in many instances. Light tanks in particular were always hard but doable. The DPS nerf means that most of the time they don't even need IP to out damage you now.

And before anyone responds with "but assassins were never meant to beat light tanks" I'll just ask, where are you finding this knowledge of how the game was designed? If light tanks were meant to be the penultimate 1v1 class then I surmise sneaks wouldn't even be in the game. Assassins sole role is to kill single targets. Light tanks naturally synergize with other group classes while assassins don't at all. Assassins biggest strength is killing single SOLO targets so I would strongly disagree that an assassin shouldn't even have a chance in a 1v1 scenario versus a SOLO light tank IF the assassin is able to open with PA.

If assassins are designed to out dps light tanks whats the point in light tanks...be no reason to play them as there role would be covered by assassins. Light tanks are suppose to be the highest dps melee in game over a sustained period of time. An assassins front loaded burst damage initially will be higher but the longer the fight goes on the lower there dps becomes. Stacking DoTs gave assassins the same sustained melee dps light tanks had which should never had been allowed. Assassins are not meant to kill everything and everyone with no fear of dying in a 1 on 1. The targets they do kill 1 on 1 die quickly as designed so they can make a quick escape but anything that hits hard, has good armour and plenty of hp should be avoided. A tank of any kind should find an assassin as annoying as a pidgeon hitting a hgv truck

The first problem is this notion of 'light' tank. Yes they already have and have always had more sustained damage than assassins and with the exception of zerks, better armor. I never said assassin should be able to kill anything 1v1 without any fear. There should be tiers so to help explain I'll break it down.

Tier 1 - you can't win so don't bother
Tier 2 - you might win or you might lose
Tier 3 - free rps.

What you call light tanks used to be in tier 2. Now they're in tier 1 unless low RR and unbuffed. What I've been saying over and over again is that for assassins, the classes that sat in tier 2 just shrank a lot. The stuff that was easy before like casters will continue to be easy. The stuff that was impossible like friars and Champs will continue to be impossible. But now all our fights have turned into this...

Check 1) is it solo? If no wait, if yes, move to 2
Check 2) is it a caster? If yes, perf, if no
Check 3) is it a low RR/obv sub 50/obv no temp or buffs? If yes perf, if no, wait some more.

There are very few "tough fights" as an assassin right now. There are basically only guaranteed wins and guaranteed losses. That has been the core of my gripe. I don't mind not being able to beat some classes as an assassin in 1v1, that's fine. I do mind if it's most classes or else what's the point? Half the fun is taking a shot at a merc or bm or reaver or a high archer or minstrel. Those are all guaranteed losses now. So again, what's the point?
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:05 AM by Tillbeast
Every class in game has the same issue, some classes you can beat, some you can't. High rr archers are only really an issue if you are significantly lower rr than them. You counter there IP with offensive RA's which the archer will not have. Won't win every fight but its a good 70% in your favour if you land a PA.

This is not aimed at yourself but assassins need to get out of the 1 on 1 mentality. To often you hear people say that assassins do nothing for the realm war, even assassins themselves consign themselves to the solo duel style of play. With these rvr tasks the amount of healers I have seen complain because a grey is interrupting them in there 8v8. Imagine if that grey was a 50 assassin, be more than a nuisance. Assassins can turn the tide in a close fought battle helping there realm secure key positions etc. I honestly believe that is what assassins were designed to do, suddenly appear gank a clothie or healer then vanish before dps realises whats going on not this solo duelling. Balancing 1 on 1 is pointless however you cannot have one class dominating it. Now assassins targets have been reduced and you are prob right with its either auto win or auto loss although I think you have more auto wins than losses.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 1:04 AM by Stoertebecker
Kimahri wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 9:02 PM
Tillbeast wrote:
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:52 AM
At end of day numbers are just numbers. I would like to ask the assassin community one question.

What classes can you not kill now that you could before the changes to lw/cd/dw, viper and how dots worked were made?

Only class I can think off is light mpds tanks like the zerker, Merc, savage and bm. Assassins may now lack the sustained dps required to race them once the initial hit has happened. However tanks of any type should never have been an assassins target in first place, it was only because they could stack poison dots that gave them ability to keep up with those classes dps.

I am just interested to find out what classes now can beat an assassin after a PA that could not before.

Before the nerf, the only class I wouldn't hit was a necromancer. After the nerf, I still don't hit necromancers because its suicide, however I also avoid higher RR armsman, friar, mercenary, reaver, blademaster, champion, and hero because its not worth the risk of death or wasting purge/vanish.

Then the change works like intended
Sat 9 Mar 2019 1:57 AM by Kimahri
Maybe, but it also results in less action on the server. For example solo tanks may run out looking for assassins that are no longer willing to engage them. The tank runs around wasting their time until a fg shows up and ganks them. With enough repetition of this they give up.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 2:17 AM by dante`afk
They dumbed down assassin gameplay so much, I'm falling asleep playing the char. There's nothing to do but watch play it out. Total snoozefest.


The formula seems clear here; devs know that the server will only survive in long term if they make it nice and cozy for the casuals. Make it as easy as possible, as dumb as possible with as many free handouts as possible.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 2:51 AM by relvinian
Makes no difference because assassins can kill 50/50, at least vs other classes.

And if they lose they spend 5 points and off they go.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 5:27 AM by Stoertebecker
Kimahri wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 1:57 AM
Maybe, but it also results in less action on the server. For example solo tanks may run out looking for assassins that are no longer willing to engage them. The tank runs around wasting their time until a fg shows up and ganks them. With enough repetition of this they give up.

Havn`t seen that many solo tanks (Warrior, Armsman, Hero) running around, maybe because speed < all ?
One inc and even if you win you`re f.....

I don`t know from where this claim * i play an assassin, i must be able to kill all * comes from. Is that a form of masculine profil psychose?
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:39 AM by Tillbeast
dante`afk wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 2:17 AM
They dumbed down assassin gameplay so much, I'm falling asleep playing the char. There's nothing to do but watch play it out. Total snoozefest.


The formula seems clear here; devs know that the server will only survive in long term if they make it nice and cozy for the casuals. Make it as easy as possible, as dumb as possible with as many free handouts as possible.

Is pressing a macro to switch weapons with poisons that more dynamic? Really? You can still switch weapons if that makes the encounter more fun for you, you will just not be able to abuse stacking DoTs to be able to kill targets you are not suppose to be able to kill. Half the fun for me when playing my assassin is working out how to get into position and to escape. The fight itself was usually a formality and never lasted long.

Solo players are the minority, the devs will cater for the majority. This is a rvr game not a 1v1 game nor an 8v8 game. Nor is it the daoc we played back on the original Mythic/EA servers. Take it for what it is and have fun but if you are looking for the original DAoC experience this is not it.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:56 AM by Victos
Tillbeast wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:39 AM
Is pressing a macro to switch weapons with poisons that more dynamic? Really? You can still switch weapons if that makes the encounter more fun for you, you will just not be able to abuse stacking DoTs to be able to kill targets you are not suppose to be able to kill.

The macro already dumbed down the playstyle from manual switching while positioning etc. To rolling fingers - and - it was almost thr sole reason this whole debate began in the first place.

I've played since 2001, this includes live, classic servers, i50 rvr servers, pvp servers and absolute custom "design your own class" servers. And this, after more than 17 years, is the first server where I see weapon switching being such a big issue.

This to me sounds at the very least to be an indicator that /switch is the reason. It at least doubles the poison-output between manual and macro and does so by dumbing down the gameplay.

That's not an "it has always been like that" argument, it's an "/switch seems to have been the actual issue" argument.

Imagine they implemented a /charm macro that recharmed your current pet without switching targets. Suddenly every casual minstrel would be able to be the pet recharm god they always wanted to be. And I think that would lead to more people being mad about the whole charm system. I was a minstrel on live and one of the first on my server to run solo with red or even purple pets. With such a macro everyone would've been like that. Of course that wouldn't be as strong here, as they already changed the maximum frequency of the charm, but it would still almost automate a process that leads to more power of a class.

There are simply some game mechanics that shouldn't just get QoL changes without a thought about the consequences.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 10:55 AM by Freedomcall
Even if Devs wanted to prevent assassins from reapplying dots, the current mechanism shouldn't be the resolution.
I tested spamming garrotes while switching 15 lifebane-applied weapons(switching MH only as i always have done),
and 2nd tick never occured until i stopped re-applying.

Of course, you won't switch that much now unless you are crazy,
but this means you lose 1 tick if you reapply lifebane before its duration is over.
Reapplying dots shouldn't punish players at least, and make it "do nothing" as devs intended.

Current mechanism is absolutely broken.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 11:21 AM by Tillbeast
Victos wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:56 AM
Tillbeast wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:39 AM
Is pressing a macro to switch weapons with poisons that more dynamic? Really? You can still switch weapons if that makes the encounter more fun for you, you will just not be able to abuse stacking DoTs to be able to kill targets you are not suppose to be able to kill.

The macro already dumbed down the playstyle from manual switching while positioning etc. To rolling fingers - and - it was almost thr sole reason this whole debate began in the first place.


Fair enough then just manually switch if pressing buttons is too dull. However no matter how you swap weapons stacking DoTs which is the bigger issue is no longer possible and in my opinion I think that's a good change. What was in previous versions of DAoC that made assassins fun that's not on Pheonix? I only ever played the original from week 1 to minotaur expansion so I am unfamiliar with the other custom servers that have been about.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 11:45 AM by Victos
Tillbeast wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 11:21 AM
Victos wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 9:56 AM
Tillbeast wrote:
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:39 AM
Is pressing a macro to switch weapons with poisons that more dynamic? Really? You can still switch weapons if that makes the encounter more fun for you, you will just not be able to abuse stacking DoTs to be able to kill targets you are not suppose to be able to kill.

The macro already dumbed down the playstyle from manual switching while positioning etc. To rolling fingers - and - it was almost thr sole reason this whole debate began in the first place.


Fair enough then just manually switch if pressing buttons is too dull. However no matter how you swap weapons stacking DoTs which is the bigger issue is no longer possible and in my opinion I think that's a good change. What was in previous versions of DAoC that made assassins fun that's not on Pheonix? I only ever played the original from week 1 to minotaur expansion so I am unfamiliar with the other custom servers that have been about.

The "dot stacking" as you call it, or rather the reapplication including the first tick, like with any other dot in the game, was what made the class fun, at least to me.

Manually switching with the change in place is pointless.

Now:
1. Apply poisons at combat start
2. Reapply in case purge is used
3. Reapply dot after 20 seconds

Previously:
1-3. All of the above
4. Reapply in case more damage is needed, manually

This reapplication was a non-issue on all previous servers that I know of, macroing pushed it to the extremes and made in an issue.

Manually you're not able to switch two weapons every combat round, let alone at swing speed cap. With macros everyone can, which indeed is absolutely ridiculous and broken.

So there was nothing specificly - added - by other servers, it's just that phoenix - removed - something all other servers didn't. (Not including what ever Broadsword threw at the game after labyrinth)
Sat 9 Mar 2019 1:33 PM by Tillbeast
I see your point now. However DoT stacking is far to powerful and allowed assassins to kill stuff they should not had been able to. Its always fun when an overpowered ability lets you win and just because it was not fixed on previous servers does not mean it should not be fixed on this server.

Other classes with DoTs are casters and can be interrupted whereas assassins attacks cannot (bar landing a melee stun on them) and who really uses dots in rvr bar the odd caster
Sat 9 Mar 2019 2:13 PM by Victos
Well no one wanted to have it be overpowered and most assassins would agree that it indeed needed some tuning down.

But why would you remove a game mechanic that provided a variance in skill rather than just nerfing the numbers and adjusting /switch?

Both end in comparable damage numbers while still providing an edge in assassin vs assassin fights to those who are actually good at it.

Heck I would even consider a malus for reapplication such that following poisons provide lesser damage over time. Meaning one could swap in certain situations to provide a means of "burst" while sacrificing damage in the long run. In that case one would even have to think about when to burst and if to burst at all. As bursting against an IP tank would literally fuck you up for the next 20 seconds becausr you nerfed your own poison damage.

But well, it's pointless to suggest things or debate about it, it's in and we have to deal with it. I for one don't enjoy the static playstyle so I just quit the class.

The only assassin I consider to still provide some edge to better players is NS now.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 4:10 PM by Tillbeast
Not against weapon swapping, think we were arguing different points. I am just against the poison DoTs stacking and the amount of damage they were doing either by manually swithching or a macro. Keeping it the same as it is now but not allowing double ticks is perfectly fine. The increased percentage to viper increases front loaded poison damage plus the slight buff to off hand weapons have increased overall dps a bit. Playing an assassin has not changed except players cant abuse double sometimes triple poison ticks anymore. I don't think it can be done any other way than how its is now without it being either too strong (double procs happen too often) or to weak (normal procs not doing enough dps).

As an archer I do emphasise with assassins with this change as its not nice to have your toys removed as we have suffered too (more to be honest)
Sat 9 Mar 2019 4:35 PM by Victos
It's certainly the "best" (effective, easy to implement, no impact on other mechanics) solution for the majority of players e.g. what people might call "casuals". They didn't care that much about the mechanic itself anyways.

I think providing a bigger variety of tools that are balanced is superior gameplay wise than a basic set of tools though.

Yes, assassins will continue to be strong or at least balanced, but the gameplay - granted only for a fraction of the playerbase - has changed.

In an ideal scenario assassins would've been nerfed while keeping the gameplay the same or providing an alternative rather than just removing something entirely.

In the case of archers I think it's even worse but that's also due to the fact archers were quite bland at this patch level.

I would like to see some incentives for archers to go higher in bow, I would even give them more tools to play with, if the overall balance stood the same, just to make the class more fun to play.

I think bow on it's own, even though it's effective with the right number changes, is quite dull gameplay wise. It litetally boils down to 3 buttons (bow, crit, rapid) for a whole spec line. But as the overall playstyle is still fun I actually am in the process of leveling a hunter, now as I've put my sb in the dust for the second time, even though I know hunters are still inferior to assassins.
Sat 9 Mar 2019 8:09 PM by krycek
The /switch command kinda put a magnifying glass on the real issue. And that issue was a dot poison being used as a dd/dmg add poison that could be used every melee swing. There's no good argument you can make for keeping it that way other than "it's always been like that".

Assassin v assassin fights are on a more even playing field now and it doesn't come down to who is spamming dot poisons and who isn't. I think that's way more interesting and competitive. Really liking the fix.

Maybe if assassins cry enough now they can add in the dd poisons.
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:34 PM by Warlay
dont know if its just a feeling but the poisons still applys, not on the target dummy but sitll in fight with special ns ^^ i get still you have been poisened! msgs all around and directly under the dmg, dont know ^^
Sun 10 Mar 2019 6:53 PM by dante`afk
Warlay wrote:
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:34 PM
dont know if its just a feeling but the poisons still applys, not on the target dummy but sitll in fight with special ns ^^ i get still you have been poisened! msgs all around and directly under the dmg, dont know ^^

and this is why we get changes like that.

jesus christ.


hey buddy, yea you get the message, but it does not tick any more on each hit again.
Sun 10 Mar 2019 8:43 PM by relvinian
i made a point about the golf bag of poisoned weapons in beta.

this is a move in right direction.
Mon 11 Mar 2019 7:03 AM by Freedomcall
Warlay wrote:
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:34 PM
dont know if its just a feeling but the poisons still applys, not on the target dummy but sitll in fight with special ns ^^ i get still you have been poisened! msgs all around and directly under the dmg, dont know ^^

report if this is true, and i hope you weren't mistaken with procs
Mon 11 Mar 2019 3:40 PM by DinoTriz
Freedomcall wrote:
Mon 11 Mar 2019 7:03 AM
Warlay wrote:
Sun 10 Mar 2019 5:34 PM
dont know if its just a feeling but the poisons still applys, not on the target dummy but sitll in fight with special ns ^^ i get still you have been poisened! msgs all around and directly under the dmg, dont know ^^

report if this is true, and i hope you weren't mistaken with procs

What he's probably seeing is additional unique poisons being applied, which is totally fine.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 6:49 AM by Warlay
no this wasnt a proc. i will test that probably i was wrong or i dont know, the situation was strange
Tue 12 Mar 2019 7:31 AM by Druth
I wonder if you switch between different lvl's of poison that they will all proc/refresh?
Maybe that's the problem.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:49 AM by dante`afk
no they won't, it will say that the effect is already in place.

if I'd only get a penny for all the times people spread misinformation about a class because they get killed by it, without knowing the class, mechanics or even playing it, I'd me a millionaire.
Tue 12 Mar 2019 2:41 PM by Stoertebecker
dante`afk wrote:
Tue 12 Mar 2019 10:49 AM
no they won't, it will say that the effect is already in place.

if I'd only get a penny for all the times people spread misinformation about a class because they get killed by it, without knowing the class, mechanics or even playing it, I'd me a millionaire.

Good that we have you for that, the holy grail of daoc knowledge. What would we do without you? We would be lost....
Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:42 PM by Drakuz
here is why you view this, the aforementioned is the main complaint i have effecting many many classes.
the previous LA nurf is link to the other dmg's later on in the patches to the other offhand classes -----


/repost.

it doesnt matter.
shield is broken on this server. its a fact.


LA nerf is viewably/noticably not imposed (prior to 1.65) it was tuned down to -1% so no the LA nerf is not in.

as of patch 1.96a in year 2008 the block cap was 75%
block cap was reduced to 60% at a later date, also due to other changes developing later in the timeline.

so shield has been nerfed far far far too much on this server who's timeline is purposely aimed at one thing:

the main dev is biased, hates shield users and either plays a Beserker or a Shadowblade, while not minding the timeline, or the reasons for why certain changes were made in the chronological order, has chosen to ignore the order, and cherry-pick the patches to show favoritism.

that is the only conclusion that i can draw from the evidence.
("what evidence?!" - you say, wow i must be psychic)
once again i know how i have to restate myself...

LA nerf from 2003 was not imposed.
but a nerf harder than the 2008 block nerf was imposed.
digging further will only render more terrible results.


(1.96a sidenote, while in 1.96a the main servers were at 75% block cap, PENDRAGON had the 60% block cap.)


so the server is pre-biased to make shield users fail here.

(all above stated is for rvr block caps)
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:34 PM by gruenesschaf
The bias against shield users is clearly visible, you are absolutely correct:
1) Dual wield only reduces block by 25% instead of 50%
2) The block cap in rvr is 80%
3) The LA nerf is a nerf to growth rate which is applied

And since you thought it wise to post the same factually 100% wrong garbage in multiple threads: congratulations for the first timed ban because of forum posts.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:44 PM by Joc
Bahahahhahah....... Haha haha haha haha. About time. People have been spewing inaccurate garbage on this and other posts so much lately. Thank you! Maybe this will make people test and look at the actual patch notes from now on. That and realize its a custom ruleset.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:46 PM by gruenesschaf
It's bad if people post wrong garbage once in a thread but that's to be expected and will not have any consequences but when you spam the same stuff in multiple threads and have another prior entry in your account it's something else.
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:48 PM by florin
Careful defias - daddy’s got the belt out
Thu 14 Mar 2019 11:49 PM by gruenesschaf
While annoying he is making suggestions, not posting wrong stuff as facts.
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