Celtic Dual, Dual Wield and Left Axe buffs, no forum announcement?

Just curious as to why there was no forum post on the patch.

Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:31 PM by Dragonn

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:04 PM
Just curious as to why there was no forum post on the patch.

What Do you mean ?

Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:34 PM by Ganil

Probably because it's a fix/minor change.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:43 AM by Sepplord

out of game patchnotes are always lagging behind the servernews patchnotes, and since the changes content is easily explained in short words there'S no need to make a big thread like for the Task-overhaul

Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:19 AM by inoeth

Ganil wrote: ↑
Sun 3 Mar 2019 11:34 PM
Probably because it's a fix/minor change.

Actually its not a "minor" change ....
La is working normal now, fix
Dw/cd got buffed, rr5 bm and merc should have 15% more chance to hit with OH than before.

Also hib and alb assassins can now dump more points into other specs or just keep the dmg boost on offhand hits.

Like cd and dw users have not been in a strong position before.....

Mon 4 Mar 2019 11:25 AM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:19 AM
Actually its not a "minor" change ....
La is working normal now, fix
Dw/cd got buffed, rr5 bm and merc should have 15% more chance to hit with OH than before.

Also hib and alb assassins can now dump more points into other specs or just keep the dmg boost on offhand hits.

Like cd and dw users have not been in a strong position before.....

Why would you assume they didn't find a similar issue w/CD and DW not scaling passed comp 50 properly? No one has submitted any info to say otherwise like they did for LA. Just some common sense here...

Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:13 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 11:25 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 8:19 AM
Actually its not a "minor" change ....
La is working normal now, fix
Dw/cd got buffed, rr5 bm and merc should have 15% more chance to hit with OH than before.

Also hib and alb assassins can now dump more points into other specs or just keep the dmg boost on offhand hits.

Like cd and dw users have not been in a strong position before.....

Why would you assume they didn't find a similar issue w/CD and DW not scaling passed comp 50 properly? No one has submitted any info to say otherwise like they did for LA. Just some common sense here...

it did not say anything about scaling past 50... they changed the variable for scaling in the equation from .68 to .86 which is massive imo

Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:08 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:13 PM
it did not say anything about scaling past 50... they changed the variable for scaling in the equation from .68 to .86 which is massive imo

I'm sure what they did was in balance as far as equality for each realm. If you brought some math to the table and showed reasons to why it wasn't fair I'd understand. You didn't do that and just assumed the devs are nobs because of your feelings... Which isn't welcome

Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:39 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 1:08 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 12:13 PM
it did not say anything about scaling past 50... they changed the variable for scaling in the equation from .68 to .86 which is massive imo

I'm sure what they did was in balance as far as equality for each realm. If you brought some math to the table and showed reasons to why it wasn't fair I'd understand. You didn't do that and just assumed the devs are nobs because of your feelings... Which isn't welcome

so you assume i did not the math and im the nub here? not sure why you getting personal here.
im complaining because everyone was complaining of assassins ands bms and now the are even stronger lol
also why "balance" something that has worked for nearly two decades?
why nerf midgard?

btw have you done the math? i alrdy brought some numbers, you brought nothing but personal attacks.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:48 PM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:39 PM
so you assume i did not the math and im the nub here? not sure why you getting personal here.
im complaining because everyone was complaining of assassins ands bms and now the are even stronger lol
also why "balance" something that has worked for nearly two decades?
why nerf midgard?

btw have you done the math? i alrdy brought some numbers, you brought nothing but personal attacks.

You fail to understand that the LA change before was not a nerf but a buff to midgard. With the complete old formula both weapons would have been at 62.5 and scale with .34 each, including the mainhand which benefits from style to hit and hence is inherently more valuable than the offhand. With the removal of duelist reflexes we found it necessary to change to the new scaling start points. Now, since people think LA is useless (which it was not technically but if everyone thinks it's that way than it defacto becomes that way), we applied the new scaling as well and, since a property of LA and DW/CD is and has always been that they do precisely the same unstyled damage when ignoring the haste effect we also increased their scaling to .86 to keep that property

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:05 PM by Bradekes

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:48 PM
Now, since people think LA is useless (which it was not technically but if everyone thinks it's that way than it defacto becomes that way), we applied the new scaling as well and, since a property of LA and DW/CD is and has always been that they do precisely the same unstyled damage when ignoring the haste effect we also increased their scaling to .86 to keep that property

Great explanation! I think many players are also wondering about the effects of speccing LA/CD/DW passed Composite 50. This info may be of upmost importance to builds on the affected classes. Thanks!!

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:17 PM by Ashenspire

I never had an issue with my left axe damage. It worked exactly how it was supposed to. People just want to spam Doublefrost and win. I hope we never go back to that.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:33 PM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:48 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:39 PM
so you assume i did not the math and im the nub here? not sure why you getting personal here.
im complaining because everyone was complaining of assassins ands bms and now the are even stronger lol
also why "balance" something that has worked for nearly two decades?
why nerf midgard?

btw have you done the math? i alrdy brought some numbers, you brought nothing but personal attacks.

You fail to understand that the LA change before was not a nerf but a buff to midgard. With the complete old formula both weapons would have been at 62.5 and scale with .34 each, including the mainhand which benefits from style to hit and hence is inherently more valuable than the offhand. With the removal of duelist reflexes we found it necessary to change to the new scaling start points. Now, since people think LA is useless (which it was not technically but if everyone thinks it's that way than it defacto becomes that way), we applied the new scaling as well and, since a property of LA and DW/CD is and has always been that they do precisely the same unstyled damage when ignoring the haste effect we also increased their scaling to .86 to keep that property

yes but the new formula with nf ra (without duelist reflexes) is:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

but when i unterstood it correctly you guys used something like this:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.34 * spec

which is obviously not a buff to midgard... now you corrected that but also changed:

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .68 * CD/DW spec

to

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .86 * CD/DW spec

which is obviously a buff to cd/dw

so the formula of la was wrong in the first place, now correct, but now dw/cd is wrong

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:41 PM by Afuldan

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:48 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 2:39 PM
so you assume i did not the math and im the nub here? not sure why you getting personal here.
im complaining because everyone was complaining of assassins ands bms and now the are even stronger lol
also why "balance" something that has worked for nearly two decades?
why nerf midgard?

btw have you done the math? i alrdy brought some numbers, you brought nothing but personal attacks.

You fail to understand that the LA change before was not a nerf but a buff to midgard. With the complete old formula both weapons would have been at 62.5 and scale with .34 each, including the mainhand which benefits from style to hit and hence is inherently more valuable than the offhand. With the removal of duelist reflexes we found it necessary to change to the new scaling start points. Now, since people think LA is useless (which it was not technically but if everyone thinks it's that way than it defacto becomes that way), we applied the new scaling as well and, since a property of LA and DW/CD is and has always been that they do precisely the same unstyled damage when ignoring the haste effect we also increased their scaling to .86 to keep that property

yes but the new formula with nf ra (without duelist reflexes) is:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

but when i unterstood it correctly you guys used something like this:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.34 * spec

which is obviously not a buff to midgard... now you corrected that but also changed:

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .68 * CD/DW spec

to

chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .86 * CD/DW spec

which is obviously a buff to cd/dw

so the formula of la was wrong in the first place, now correct, but now dw/cd is wrong

A decent buff to BM, NS, Ranger, Merc and Inf.

25% + (50*0.68) = 59%
25% + (50*0.86) = 68%

Offhand rates. Does comp weapon help past 50 CD/DW?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:44 PM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
yes but the new formula with nf ra (without duelist reflexes) is:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

but when i unterstood it correctly you guys used something like this:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.34 * spec

which is obviously not a buff to midgard...

From
MH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec
OH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec

To
MH 77.33 + 0.34 * spec
OH 52 + 0.34 * spec

Is not a buff? Interesting.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:00 PM by Afuldan

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:44 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
yes but the new formula with nf ra (without duelist reflexes) is:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

but when i unterstood it correctly you guys used something like this:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.34 * spec

which is obviously not a buff to midgard...

From
MH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec
OH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec

To
MH 77.33 + 0.34 * spec
OH 52 + 0.34 * spec

Is not a buff? Interesting.

Math is hard.

50 spec = 17% LA damage increase

Old formula.
62.5 MH + 17% spec = 79.5% MH damage
62.5 OH + 17% spec = 79.5% OH damage
Total damage per swing 159%

New Formula

77.33 MH + 17% spec = 94.33 MH Damage
52.00 OH +17% spec = 69.00% OH Damage
Total 163.3% PLUS you now get 94.33% of your style damage instead of 79.5% of it.

How is this not a buff to Zerk/SB as well? Hah!

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:01 PM by Ashenspire

You should always get full style damage. It was not based off the main hand damage reduction.

Also, if it's still .34 and .34 for Zerk/SB but .86 for DW/CD, that means LA is still behind.

Haven't seen any final numbers myself

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:05 PM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:44 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:33 PM
yes but the new formula with nf ra (without duelist reflexes) is:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.52 * spec

but when i unterstood it correctly you guys used something like this:

Mainhand damage = 77.33 + 0.33 * spec
Offhand damage = 52.00 + 0.34 * spec

which is obviously not a buff to midgard...

From
MH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec
OH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec

To
MH 77.33 + 0.34 * spec
OH 52 + 0.34 * spec

Is not a buff? Interesting.

if you compare these two, yes thats a slight buff.... still this was wrong. also you cant compare these two since one is with DR and one is without
if you assume you have DR5 you reach 100% with both hands, which is not possible anymore with the new formula and especialy not with your customized formula.
also it does not make sense to compare old vs new... you have to compare la vs dw/cd and there your customized version falls behind dw/cd and now also falls behind because you buffed dw/cd offhand chance.
i dont know why you even touch the formulas, worked great on live for years and i think it was done like this for a reason.

so this is still a nerf for midgard no matter how you like to turn it....do you understand me now?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:10 PM by Afuldan

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:01 PM
You should always get full style damage. It was not based off the main hand damage reduction.

Also, if it's still .34 and .34 for Zerk/SB but .86 for DW/CD, that means LA is still behind.

Haven't seen any final numbers myself

Ah I see.

Overall LA sees a straight DPS increase. CD/DW got an over time DPS increase that matches the amount that LA got. Remember that the average chance to hit with offhand CD/DW is balanced out to have the same DPS as LA.

It’s possible to spike more with CD/DW due to all offhands hitting streak, but LA always hitting equals the same amount of over time average DPS. LA DPS doesnt need to be increased much to match CD/DW increases in chance to attack.

0.68*50=34%+25%base before
0.86*50=43%+25%base after

9% increase in chance to attack for CD/DW, while LA “only” got a 4.3% DPS increase. How is this fair? Over time, the 9% increased swing rate equals 4.3% DPS increase over time on average.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:12 PM by

gruenesschaf

Who said it's still 0.34 mh and oh for la? Why would you even think that?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:14 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:05 PM
so this is still a nerf for midgard no matter how you like to turn it....do you understand me now?

This guy obviously failed algebra so let's just find a way to explains it to him...

Makey main hand damage higher makey styles hitty harder makey more dps.

But seriously... This is a huge boost to damage 10% especially when you factor haste effect boosting dps..

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:17 PM by Afuldan

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:12 PM
Who said it's still 0.34 mh and oh for la? Why would you even think that?

Oooooh the scale formula changed? This is why I asked why there was no new post.

Edit this is what you just posted in this thread. Are these the formula numbers? And what is the scale past 50?
MH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec
OH 62.5 + 0.34 * spec

To
MH 77.33 + 0.34 * spec
OH 52 + 0.34 * spec

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:23 PM by Ashenspire

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:12 PM
Who said it's still 0.34 mh and oh for la? Why would you even think that?

Because I haven't seen patch notes or a forum post from the devs that say otherwise.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:25 PM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:05 PM
if you compare these two, yes thats a slight buff.... still this was wrong. also you cant compare these two since one is with DR and one is without
if you assume you have DR5 you reach 100% with both hands, which is not possible anymore with the new formula and especialy not with your customized formula.
also it does not make sense to compare old vs new... you have to compare la vs dw/cd and there your customized version falls behind dw/cd and now also falls behind because you buffed dw/cd offhand chance.
i dont know why you even touch the formulas, worked great on live for years and i think it was done like this for a reason.

so this is still a nerf for midgard no matter how you like to turn it....do you understand me now?

This is getting ridiculous, please back your claims with tests or just stop.

Before the last change, aka after removal of DR and after changing to new formula start points (which put LA ahead of DW / CD by 4.33%, aka LA buff). All examples with 65 dw spec.

DW / CD: 100% MH Chance / Damage, 69.2 OH Chance -> Over time 169.2% damage when ignoring the haste affect.
LA: 99.43% MH Damage, 74.1% OH damage -> 173.53% damage when ignoring haste effect

After the last change:
DW / CD: 100% MH Chance / Damage, 80.9 OH Chance -> Over time 180.9% damage when ignoring the haste affect.
LA: 99.43% MH Damage, 85.8% OH Damage -> 185.23% damage when ignoring haste effect

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:29 PM by Ashenspire

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:25 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:05 PM
if you compare these two, yes thats a slight buff.... still this was wrong. also you cant compare these two since one is with DR and one is without
if you assume you have DR5 you reach 100% with both hands, which is not possible anymore with the new formula and especialy not with your customized formula.
also it does not make sense to compare old vs new... you have to compare la vs dw/cd and there your customized version falls behind dw/cd and now also falls behind because you buffed dw/cd offhand chance.
i dont know why you even touch the formulas, worked great on live for years and i think it was done like this for a reason.

so this is still a nerf for midgard no matter how you like to turn it....do you understand me now?

This is getting ridiculous, please back your claims with tests or just stop.

Before the last change, aka after removal of DR and after changing to new formula start points (which put LA ahead of DW / CD by 4.33%, aka LA buff). All examples with 65 dw spec.

DW / CD: 100% MH Chance / Damage, 69.2 OH Chance -> Over time 169.2% damage when ignoring the haste affect.
LA: 99.43% MH Damage, 74.1% OH damage -> 173.53% damage when ignoring haste effect

After the last change:
DW / CD: 100% MH Chance / Damage, 80.9 OH Chance -> Over time 180.9% damage when ignoring the haste affect.
LA: 99.43% MH Damage, 85.8% OH Damage -> 185.23% damage when ignoring haste effect

So based on these numbers it's .34 main hand and .52 offhand for LA.

Awesome, all I needed to know. Thanks gruenesschaf!

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:31 PM by

gruenesschaf

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:29 PM
So based on these numbers it's .34 main hand and .52 offhand for LA.

Awesome, all I needed to know. Thanks gruenesschaf!

Which is exactly what it says ingame in the patch notes

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:31 PM by Ashenspire

Hey man, some of us are at work and can't see those!

Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:23 PM by inoeth

source: https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/la-damage

now add 15% chance from DR and you have those 100% at rr6 or something and 50 la spec

BTW can you please stop calling me ridiculous?
im trying to discuss this issue here and want to show that it is wrong and you just tell me im fail and ridiculous.... did i offend you somehow?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:37 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:23 PM
now add 15% chance from DR and you have those 100% at rr6 or something and 50 la spec

BTW can you please stop calling me ridiculous?
im trying to discuss this issue here and want to show that it is wrong and you just tell me im fail and ridiculous.... did i offend you somehow?

Now that you've provided numbers and such after your argument, what are you saying is wrong with the numbers?
They seem to favor the already good .75 growth rate style for sb/zerker pretty well

Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:23 PM
BTW can you please stop calling me ridiculous?
im trying to discuss this issue here and want to show that it is wrong and you just tell me im fail and ridiculous.... did i offend you somehow?

Yes by claiming it falls short of CD / DW when it clearly does not.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:52 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:37 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:23 PM
now add 15% chance from DR and you have those 100% at rr6 or something and 50 la spec

BTW can you please stop calling me ridiculous?
im trying to discuss this issue here and want to show that it is wrong and you just tell me im fail and ridiculous.... did i offend you somehow?

Now that you've provided numbers and such after your argument, what are you saying is wrong with the numbers?
They seem to favor the already good .75 growth rate style for sb/zerker pretty well

my point is they implemented the new la formula but with a wrong variable for la scaling.
now that is corrected but it comes with a huge buff for dw/cd users and i dont get why this was made.
this change to dw/cd has made the correction to la dmg obsolete.

@gruenes: you tell me i dont understand but you decide to change the formulas and seem to not understand what this causes.
the formulas have been made for a reason by mythic and are flawed since you introduced nf ras... thats the reason why nobody plays zerk
why not make it livelike?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:56 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
my point is they implemented the new la formula but with a wrong variable for la scaling.
now that is corrected but it comes with a huge buff for dw/cd users and i dont get why this was made.
this change to dw/cd has made the correction to la dmg obsolete.

So can you atleast try to show how it favors CD/DW instead of just saying it? Mid LA having 100% MH dmg is gross already man.. What elsedo you need?

And I'm pretty sure Savage overshadows Zerker as to why there may not be many zerkers not LA mechanics

<especially after the guy who already did the math told you it's equal, you owe him an explanation as to how it's not>

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:09 PM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
my point is they implemented the new la formula but with a wrong variable for la scaling.
now that is corrected but it comes with a huge buff for dw/cd users and i dont get why this was made.
this change to dw/cd has made the correction to la dmg obsolete.

@gruenes: you tell me i dont understand but you decide to change the formulas and seem to not understand what this causes.
the formulas have been made for a reason by mythic and are flawed since you introduced nf ras... thats the reason why nobody plays zerk
why not make it livelike?

The claim that the change to CD / DW made the "fix" to la obsolete is the stuff I mean. Why, what makes you think that, how do you come to that wrong conclusion? With OF / old formulas LA, CD and DW were the same starting point AND scaling wise. That was still (almost) the case when we changed to the new la starting points with old scaling but with LA getting a 4.33% buff.

You seem to not understand that the .68 scaling for DW / CD is from the same time the old LA formula was tested and also changed around that time.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:09 PM by Yokahu

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:23 PM

source: https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/la-damage

now add 15% chance from DR and you have those 100% at rr6 or something and 50 la spec

BTW can you please stop calling me ridiculous?
im trying to discuss this issue here and want to show that it is wrong and you just tell me im fail and ridiculous.... did i offend you somehow?

Is that “old LA” column referring to the pre-Nerf LA or just the LA before the March 2 patch?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:10 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:56 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:52 PM
my point is they implemented the new la formula but with a wrong variable for la scaling.
now that is corrected but it comes with a huge buff for dw/cd users and i dont get why this was made.
this change to dw/cd has made the correction to la dmg obsolete.
So can you atleast try to show how it favors CD/DW instead of just saying it? Mid LA having 100% MH dmg is gross already man.. What elsedo you need?

And I'm pretty sure Savage overshadows Zerker as to why there may not be many zerkers not LA mechanics

for you again: the formulas have been working for years on live and were made for a reason, here la mechanic was either wrong (too low dmg) or dw mechanic is buffed (too high chance to hit)

why do you guys think mythic designed it that way?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:11 PM by inoeth

Yokahu wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:09 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:23 PM

source: https://sites.google.com/site/daoctests/home/la-damage

now add 15% chance from DR and you have those 100% at rr6 or something and 50 la spec

BTW can you please stop calling me ridiculous?
im trying to discuss this issue here and want to show that it is wrong and you just tell me im fail and ridiculous.... did i offend you somehow?

Is that “old LA” column referring to the pre-Nerf LA or just the LA before the March 2 patch?

both after la nerf... one is of the other is nf

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:12 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
why do you guys think mythic designed it that way?

Why do you think mythic made bards gain empathy on level up? It does absolutely nothing for bards... Explain how that is still in the game and how mythic is always right please.

And you are the one arguing how LA is inferior, explain how.. Then maybe someone will take you seriously

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:15 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:12 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:10 PM
why do you guys think mythic designed it that way?
Why do you think mythic made bards gain empathy on level up? It does absolutely nothing for bards... Explain how that is still in the game and how mythic is always right please.

And you are the one arguing how LA is inferior, explain how.. Then maybe someone will take you seriously

you compare apples and oranges here
i already did the whole thread if you can read...

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:18 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:15 PM
you compare apples and oranges here

No I didn't. Mystic makes mistakes that is what I'm saying. What you need to do is explain (with numbers) how LA is weaker than CD and DW in the current state of the game, seeings this has been your real concern. Seeings the Dev already stated they are equal now your argument is that all the numbers need reverted to how mythic had it...

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:24 PM by

gruenesschaf

The numbers were equal the entire time, which is what he for some reason disagrees with even though it's easily verifyable that it was not the case. And the fact that it is again equal is in his eyes somehow wrong as at some point the dw chance gain per dw spec point was tested to be .68, this was around the 1.65 time btw, the same time LA scaled with .34 on each hand, aka also .68 per spec point. And he is under the impression that this has never been changed and hence la should receive a 15% advantage over cd/dw.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:24 PM by inoeth

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:18 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:15 PM
you compare apples and oranges here

No I didn't. Mystic makes mistakes that is what I'm saying. What you need to do is explain (with numbers) how LA is weaker than CD and DW in the current state of the game, seeings this has been your real concern. Seeings the Dev already stated they are equal now your argument is that all the numbers need reverted to how mythic had it...

so you want to tell me that in 18 years daoc la mechanic was always off because bards gain empathy? LOL
i am saying that la /dw mechanic does not matrch live here and i dont understand why the change was made... maybe the point is that it doesnt have to be equal because tbh 80% hit chance is nearly 100% and the dmg only equals out over time but if you have fights where one it hitting the other only 5-6 times till he is dead and as a dw user you always hit with offhand then the dmg is way off in favor for dw users. ofc you also can have the other way around and dont hit at all with offhand but thats very unlikely with 80% hit chance.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:25 PM by Cadebrennus

The problem here is that a lot of people would rather argue that their "feelings" are just as valid (or more valid) than analysis of actual data and calculations.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:26 PM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:24 PM
The numbers were the entire time and are still equal, which is what he for some reason disagrees with. And the fact that it is again equal is in his eyes somehow wrong as at some point the dw chance gain per dw spec point was tested to be .68, this was around the 1.65 time btw, the same time LA scaled with .34 on each hand, aka also .68 per spec point. And he is under the impression that this has never been changed and hence la should receive a 15% advantage over cd/dw.

i dont argue over .68 i argue over .86
and yes that is exactly the point la should have an advantag oder dw/cd as it was like that the whole time in daoc.... whats so hard to understand?

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:28 PM by Bradekes

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:24 PM
so you want to tell me that in 18 years daoc la mechanic was always off because bards gain empathy? LOL
i am saying that la /dw mechanic does not matrch live here and i dont understand why the change was made... maybe the point is that it doesnt have to be equal because tbh 80% hit chance is nearly 100% and the dmg only equals out over time but if you have fights where one it hitting the other only 5-6 times till he is dead and as a dw user you always hit with offhand then the dmg is way off in favor for dw users. ofc you also can have the other way around and dont hit at all with offhand but thats very unlikely with 80% hit chance.

80% chance to swing your offhand with 100% dmg and 100% chance to swing you offhand at 80% damage averages out to the same damage dude... How is this hard to understand?????

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:28 PM by Cadebrennus

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:26 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:24 PM
The numbers were the entire time and are still equal, which is what he for some reason disagrees with. And the fact that it is again equal is in his eyes somehow wrong as at some point the dw chance gain per dw spec point was tested to be .68, this was around the 1.65 time btw, the same time LA scaled with .34 on each hand, aka also .68 per spec point. And he is under the impression that this has never been changed and hence la should receive a 15% advantage over cd/dw.

i dont argue over .68 i argue over .86
and yes that is exactly the point la should have an advantag oder dw/cd as it was like that the whole time in daoc.... whats so hard to understand?

Wrong. They were designed to have parity over time.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:30 PM by

gruenesschaf

inoeth wrote: and yes that is exactly the point la should have an advantag oder dw/cd as it was like that the whole time in daoc.... whats so hard to understand?

Look at the numbers you posted yourself, the OLD LA column, that's .34 per hand, added together it's .68 which is what dw / cd had at the time. What is so hard to understand that LA, CD and DW scaled EXACTLY the same at that time.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:33 PM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:30 PM
inoeth wrote: and yes that is exactly the point la should have an advantag oder dw/cd as it was like that the whole time in daoc.... whats so hard to understand?
Look at the numbers you posted yourself, the OLD LA column, that's .34 per hand, added together it's .68 which is what dw / cd had at the time. What is so hard to understand that LA, CD and DW scaled EXACTLY the same at that time.

i know this!
but
you changed it .. omg
also we are not talking about old la

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:35 PM by

gruenesschaf

Yes with the last patch. Before it was still .68 per spec point. Now it's .86.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 6:37 PM by

gruenesschaf

I just noticed your post where you try to claim 80% hit chance is different to 80% damage for the offhand. I'm closing this thread now as with that point of view it's utterly pointless to argue cd / dw / la mechanic. Yes in actuality it makes a difference but that's is entirely unrelated from how the 2 different mechanics are balanced with each other mechanic wise.