Stealth assassin classes balance. Edited post v2

This entire post will base data on those specs: i'm comparing equivalent toys, i will ignore 44CS spec because that means lower CD or DW which would put mid in high position due to guaranteed swings on both hands.

35weapon decent ws
34cs for pa stun
composite 50venom to lifebane dot

shadowblade
35stealth 35venom 35weapon 34cs 40LA
or
35stealth 35venom 35weapon 15cs 50LA (you lose frontal pa stun so i will not discuss this spec)

nightshade
36stealth 36venom 36weapon 36cs 36CD

inf having 2.2 spec coef
35stealth 35venom 35weapon 34cs 50DW

----------------------------------------------------------------
1 anytimer style

inf 50 DW > ns 36CD ( 50cd - 36cd = 14 / 2 = 7% ) less offhand swings chance, lower styles +dmg because not specced 50skill
inf 50 DW = sb 40LA lower +dmg styles but guaranteed swings on both hands

I will assume swap poisoning spams using the highest available anytimers
alb 50DW 0.83gr +25bleed 40sec
mid 34LA 0.75gr both hands guaranteed swing
hib garrote 0.74gr 1.03gr (because it's a combo the 2nd style isnt guaranteed, on top of that less offhand chance swing than alb & mid)
This means swap poisoning is in favor of mid then alb then hib.
alb has 25bleed,
mid has guaranteed swings offhand,
alb & mid are quite even

inf = sb > ns

----------------------------------------------------------------
2 damage types

inf thrust neutral to hib leather
inf thrust resistant to mid leather

sb slash neutral to alb leather
sb slash resistant to hib leather

ns blade neutral to alb leather
ns blade strong to mid leather

ns > inf = sb

!!! BUT !!!

remember inf 50dw vs ns 36cd, thats 7% more offhand chance on alb side and +dmg style
sb has guaranteed swings on both hands
ns has the best dmg type if specced blade but lower offhand swing chance than alb & mid

inf > ns blade = sb

-----------------------------------------------------
3 evade stun

alb lv 15 thrust 6sec
hib lv 21 blade 4sec
mid lv 18-> 39 LA COMBO 7sec (the most unreliable because it's a chain, & racial low dex means less evades )

inf > ns > sb

-----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion
1 anytimer style
inf 50DW = sb > ns

2 damage type
inf 50dw vs ns 36cd, thats 7% more offhand chance on alb side and +dmg style
sb has guaranteed swings on both hands
ns has the best dmg type if specced blade but lower offhand swing chance than alb & mid
inf > ns blade = sb

3 evade stun
inf 6sec > ns 4sec > sb combo7sec

inf are the strongest
sb & ns are quite even

-------------------------------------------
How to fix it? Viper

viper on NS they have less offhand chance to swing
viper on SB, the combo evade stun is harder to land
Please nerf infiltrators, remove viper

Fri 1 Mar 2019 4:27 AM by defiasbandit

Nerf all assassins.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 5:26 AM by teiloh

ljorka wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Mar 2019 4:08 AM
Please nerf infiltrators, remove viper from albion.

Remove Vanish from Midgard and Hibernia.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 8:55 AM by Sepplord

delete everyone and everything, bring peace to the realms of camelot that have suffered under state of war for two decades now
It's time to settle down and give the population some peace of mind

I don't believe this suggestion is much more unreasonable than the other comments/arguments presented in this thread

Fri 1 Mar 2019 9:12 AM by jelzinga_EU

While the OP has some valid arguments, his conclusions are IMO wrong. Just because NS don't have "high dmg anytime" it doesn't mean it is at the bottom of the food-chain. It completely ignores way higher advantages the NS-class has on Phoenix.

In fact, because of favorable armour-tables the NS has, as a major advantage that speccing Blades means the other stealthers are at best neutral to it. Depending on your enemy that means a "free" 10-20% damage-advantage just because of that. This is far more important than "high dmg anytime". Furthermore, in the past the advantage of speccing Pierce was Dragonfang but Blades got an insta-off-evade stun too in Hibernia, giving even more benefit to NS. Last but not least the insta-DD is doing considerably more damage than it ever did on live during this era.

Every class has its pro's and con's, but in the current state on Phoenix it is hard to argue against the opinion that a Blades NS > both INF and SB.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 11:56 AM by inoeth

btw what are those high dmg anytime styles that sb and infi have? all i can think of is garotte+achilles heel , which the ns also has.

there is no anytime combo in la line with high growth rates only a high GR anytime (double frost) which has the same GR as garotte

imo the OP doesnt know how to play assassin so he wants to troll here

Fri 1 Mar 2019 12:11 PM by Durgrim

Howdy folks,

if you technically know that another class rock-paper-scissors you, then I suggest to go for different targets, what do you think?

Fri 1 Mar 2019 6:27 PM by Pirhana7

ljorka wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Mar 2019 4:08 AM
1 nightshade has no equal access to high dmg anytimers, infs can 50dw with low negatives due to coef spec 2.2, although it's a face = anytimer, sb has high growth rates on LA anytimer combo, with guaranteed swings on both hands. this means inf & SB > NS

2 the counter strategy for nightshades was viper, which is not valid on phoenix because all realms has it.

3 shadowblades are limited to slash dmg which is bad against hib leather, neutral to alb leather. my point is inf > NS equal SB.

4 infiltrators can poison their crossbows, has high DW anytimer * and bleed dmg on it, add their spec coeff of 2.2 which is higher than ns & sb, add viper to all that = infiltrators > ns & sb.

Please nerf infiltrators, remove viper from albion.

Most would argue the NS is currently the strongest assassin on Phoenix. Mainly because of armor resists and dex effecting DDs (I have played NS and SB and I will tell you my NS is far better) Also on Phoenix CS is the strongest spec / styles, all 3 realms have access to the same anytime Garrot chain. SBs here actually do less damage with LA spec compared to CS. The same goes for Inf using DW or thrust, but they sacrifice that for evade stun. To put it bluntly you should have 44 CS and be using Garrot.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 6:32 PM by phixion

Wait, you actually think NS is the weakest assassin?

Oh my...

Fri 1 Mar 2019 6:33 PM by chryso

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Mar 2019 8:55 AM
delete everyone and everything, bring peace to the realms of camelot that have suffered under state of war for two decades now
It's time to settle down and give the population some peace of mind

Yes, lets Gaheris this place up.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 6:37 PM by defiasbandit

NS is so overtuned here.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 6:51 PM by alusnova415

I'm all for removing Viper from Albion as long you remove vanish for Hib and Mid . Deal?

Fri 1 Mar 2019 7:08 PM by Roks

If you want to nerf mid/hib stealth. Lets remove minstrels ability to stealth with mos, or the ability line all together.

Sat 2 Mar 2019 2:29 AM by krisdtn

Most NS's i've seen are all using pierce weapons and Luri's.. so a Luri wouldn't be a wise race to use if you are going to use blade.

Sat 2 Mar 2019 2:54 AM by Victos

The fact that you mention 35/35/35/34/40 for SB (or any such skill for that matter) alone is quite funny. Going for 35 stealth/envenom indicates RR5 as only 50 composite is needed. This however puts weapon below 52 composite which is necessary to reduce variance.

Absolutely no one goes below 52 composite unless it's for a short period of time (like if the needed RR is reachable in a reasonable amount of time) and even then there would be no reason to have it at the same level as stealth/envenom.

And thinking NS is the weakest assassin is absolutely hilarious. If anything it's the strongest of them all followed by infil which makes SB the weakest of them by default.

Sat 2 Mar 2019 2:58 AM by Yint

krisdtn wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 2:29 AM
Most NS's i've seen are all using pierce weapons and Luri's.. so a Luri wouldn't be a wise race to use if you are going to use blade.

Nightshade can only choose elf or luri. Luri is +5dex/quick over elf and all other meaningful stats are equal. Theres no other option

Sat 2 Mar 2019 10:30 AM by jelzinga_EU

ljorka wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Mar 2019 4:08 AM
This entire post will base data on those specs: i'm comparing equivalent toys, i will ignore 44CS spec because that means lower CD or DW which would put mid in high position due to guaranteed swings on both hands.

35weapon decent ws
34cs for pa stun
composite 50venom to lifebane dot

shadowblade
35stealth 35venom 35weapon 34cs 40LA
or
35stealth 35venom 35weapon 15cs 50LA (you lose frontal pa stun so i will not discuss this spec)

nightshade
36stealth 36venom 36weapon 36cs 36CD

inf having 2.2 spec coef
35stealth 35venom 35weapon 34cs 50DW

----------------------------------------------------------------
1 anytimer style

inf 50 DW > ns 36CD ( 50cd - 36cd = 14 / 2 = 7% ) less offhand swings chance, lower styles +dmg because not specced 50skill
inf 50 DW = sb 40LA lower +dmg styles but guaranteed swings on both hands

inf = sb > ns

----------------------------------------------------------------
2 damage types

inf thrust neutral to hib leather
inf thrust resistant to mid leather

sb slash neutral to alb leather
sb slash resistant to hib leather

ns blade neutral to alb leather
ns blade strong to mid leather

ns > inf = sb

!!! BUT !!!

remember inf 50dw vs ns 36cd, thats 7% more offhand chance on alb side and +dmg style
sb has guaranteed swings on both hands
ns has the best dmg type if specced blade but lower offhand swing chance than alb & mid

inf > ns blade = sb

-----------------------------------------------------
3 evade stun

alb lv 15 thrust 6sec
hib lv 21 blade 4sec
mid lv 18-> 39 LA COMBO 7sec (the most unreliable because it's a chain, & racial low dex means less evades )

inf > ns > sb

-----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion
1 anytimer style
inf 50DW = sb > ns

2 damage type
inf 50dw vs ns 36cd, thats 7% more offhand chance on alb side and +dmg style
sb has guaranteed swings on both hands
ns has the best dmg type if specced blade but lower offhand swing chance than alb & mid
inf > ns blade = sb

3 evade stun
inf 6sec > ns 4sec > sb combo7sec

inf are the strongest
sb & ns are quite even

-------------------------------------------
How to fix it? Viper

viper on NS they have less offhand chance to swing
viper on SB, the combo evade stun is harder to land
Please nerf infiltrators, remove viper

I quite strongly disagree with a lot of your points:

1. Anytime. Best anytimers are in CS which is equal for all 3 realms. Garrote+AchillesHeel > everything you can spec as assassin for anytimers. So all 3 are the same.

2. Dmg-types. You ignore that both NS and INF can spec 2 dmg-types, where the SB can spec 1. If you add it up properly with the resist-bonus/males for each dmg-type against other assassins (leather) you end up with (sorted):
* Blade NS: 0 + 10 = +10
* Slash INF: -10 + 10 = 0
* Thrust INF: -10 + 0 = -10
* Slash SB : -10 + 0 = -10
* Pierce NS : -10 + -10 = -20

As you can see the NS has as best option -10 where BS and INF have +10 resp. 0. So NS > INF > SB

3. Off-evade stuns. NS have in their favourable dmg-types (Blades) an off-evade stun (Horizon Blade) . INF in their favourable dmg-type (Slash) have a 2nd in chain (Riposte/Befuddler). SB only have 2nd in chain. That would make them equal to INF, but INF obviously has in Thrust Beartooth/Dragonfang, so I would say NS >INF>SB

Adding them up on those 3 things means : NS > INF > SB

4. The specs are.. well something. Obviously it goes beyond doubt that INF has the best spec-options as they get more spec-points without being forced to go 50 Thrust anymore for the stun. So INF > all. Then with SB and NS it becomes a bit different. However, when you look at the stuns available for NS vs SB it becomes obvious that a SB is forced to spec either 39 Sword or 34 Axe to get an (inferior) off-evade stun while a NS gets it at 21 or 25 Weapon-spec. This means after RR3 (Sword) or RR8 (Axe) the NS has more spec-points available to keep those abilities. Furthermore, NS get a side-stun at low CD (18) .

Based on those, I would think INF >NS > SB in this stuff too.

All-in-all I would think NS (Blades) > INF (Slash) > INF (Thrust) > NS (Pierce) > SB but there might be some other variables which we haven't considered (e.g. Nightshade DD a lot stronger here compared to live). However, I do think the order NS > INF > SB is pretty much how it is.

With regard on how to fix it: I would, for starters, make the NS DD depend on Pierce-spec and give SB's access to Bludgeon. It is pretty obvious that nerfing Blade-NS and upping SB will put the pack closer together. Evaluate then, if SB is still lowest of the pack change their stun-styles to insta off-evade as their counterparts. It wouldn't be perfect, but right now the disparity between Blade-NS and Shadowblade is so big that it is obvious that gap needs to be smaller.

Sat 2 Mar 2019 1:33 PM by Victos

I want to add to the SB RR3/RR8 thing that SB also has a chain after evade stun at 39 in LA which means that after RR8 (so RR9+) you're able to drop weapon to 33- and LA to 39+ while keeping 44 CS.

As this is still only a chain stun this changes nothing about the position of SB, just wanted to mention it.

I for one wouldn't mind getting the SideStun for SB rather than a custom after evade stun. That same sidestun could also be useful to Zerks, even though it wouldn't help them much in 8v8.