What do you guys think of Archers getting Penetrate III (popping selfcasted bubbles) on 50 Archery? Would it be too overpowered? That would rise Archers from an add class to decent gank class. I mean Assassins can penetrate bubbles with CS, so why couldn't Archers do it?
Archer and Archery 50
Started 28 Feb 2019
by
matty33102
in
Suggestions
Thu 28 Feb 2019 11:25 AM
by
Bobbahunter
Believe me, WE archers need some help. But I think the only way for it to not be over powered would be if you Crit unstealthed. SO if you Crit shot while stealthed it would not penetrate personal Bubble but if your unstealthed then yes it should. I shot a cater yesterday and he /faced quick casted and nuked me down before I could get a second shot off.
Thu 28 Feb 2019 11:36 AM
by
Durgrim
Bobbahunter wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 11:25 AMBelieve me, WE archers need some help. But I think the only way for it to not be over powered would be if you Crit unstealthed. SO if you Crit shot while stealthed it would not penetrate personal Bubble but if your unstealthed then yes it should. I shot a cater yesterday and he /faced quick casted and nuked me down before I could get a second shot off.
wait for his quick cast, eat the first damage, rupt him once afterwards with DD clickie and then rapid shot 1.5s him down. if close enough during his initial dmg, send your pet.
Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:41 PM
by
Luluko
Bobbahunter wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 11:25 AMBelieve me, WE archers need some help. But I think the only way for it to not be over powered would be if you Crit unstealthed. SO if you Crit shot while stealthed it would not penetrate personal Bubble but if your unstealthed then yes it should. I shot a cater yesterday and he /faced quick casted and nuked me down before I could get a second shot off.
tried switching to a faster bow for second shot then? /switch command as a macro could help with that
Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:17 PM
by
Horus
I think help is needed...and Archers are under review but I don't think that bubble pierce is the answer.
To me, just a general tweak of WS / Dmg from archery spec is needed. Something happens at level 50 where bow dmg in general is just pretty crappy against another level 50 opponents..even if your composite bow spec is high. Not sure where/why in the dmg formula this is happening. At 58 bow spec with 300+ dex and 5.5 speed bow I regularly crit shot cloth casters for less than 500 and hit somewhere in the 250 range for damage. This is pretty awful against cloth...
The way archers are in Thid against equal level opponents seems about right to me. Something happens as you level and effectiveness really falls off.
Mind you I'm no newb Ranger. I may not be leet, but I know what I am doing and how traditional mechanics are supposed to work...
To me, just a general tweak of WS / Dmg from archery spec is needed. Something happens at level 50 where bow dmg in general is just pretty crappy against another level 50 opponents..even if your composite bow spec is high. Not sure where/why in the dmg formula this is happening. At 58 bow spec with 300+ dex and 5.5 speed bow I regularly crit shot cloth casters for less than 500 and hit somewhere in the 250 range for damage. This is pretty awful against cloth...
The way archers are in Thid against equal level opponents seems about right to me. Something happens as you level and effectiveness really falls off.
Mind you I'm no newb Ranger. I may not be leet, but I know what I am doing and how traditional mechanics are supposed to work...
Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:18 PM
by
Ceen
I see archers everywhere even in the top tier ranks. Yet still all they do is ask for more 
Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:22 PM
by
Durgrim
Ceen wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:18 PMI see archers everywhere even in the top tier ranks. Yet still all they do is ask for more
was this irony now?
Being top tier could also mean I pick my fight whenever I want or just have enough online time - but doesn't change anything to the argument above.
you have trolled me successfully now cuz I feel the urge to repeat myself:
No other class has lesser gain in skill based dmg from 35 to 50 like the archer.
Imagine a Savage getting the same quota in triple/quad hits or dmg increase with H2H skill like archers do with bow dmg from 35 to 50 in archery
Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:26 PM
by
Ceen
Imagine to play on a server where bow damage is calculated the same way as melee damage. Oh yeah thats how it is.Durgrim wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:22 PMCeen wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:18 PMI see archers everywhere even in the top tier ranks. Yet still all they do is ask for more
was this irony now?
Being top tier could also mean I pick my fight whenever I want or just have enough online time - but doesn't change anything to the argument above.
you have trolled me successfully now cuz I feel the urge to repeat myself:
No other class has lesser gain in skill based dmg from 35 to 50 like the archer.
Imagine a Savage getting the same quota in triple/quad hits or dmg increase with H2H skill like archers do with bow dmg from 35 to 50 in archery
Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:33 PM
by
Isavyr
Horus wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:17 PMI think help is needed...and Archers are under review but I don't think that bubble pierce is the answer.
To me, just a general tweak of WS / Dmg from archery spec is needed. Something happens at level 50 where bow dmg in general is just pretty crappy against another level 50 opponents..even if your composite bow spec is high. Not sure where/why in the dmg formula this is happening. At 58 bow spec with 300+ dex and 5.5 speed bow I regularly crit shot cloth casters for less than 500 and hit somewhere in the 250 range for damage. This is pretty awful against cloth...
The way archers are in Thid against equal level opponents seems about right to me. Something happens as you level and effectiveness really falls off.
Mind you I'm no newb Ranger. I may not be leet, but I know what I am doing and how traditional mechanics are supposed to work...
You should probably use buffs.
I'm opposed to more damage--it's not the answer, it only makes archers more gankers. They should have utility, imo, and this has already been discussed to death. Maybe you can read the other threads and if you think of something clever or inventive, suggest it.
My Ranger has hit leather wearer, with correct arrow type, for 702 damage--that's without D/Q charge, or max buffs. Here is picture of my caster getting hit by archer:
[attachment=2]hunter_critshot_on_caster.JPG[/attachment]
And my ranger getting hit by arrow:
[attachment=0]Scout_vs_reinf.JPG[/attachment]
Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:53 PM
by
waffel
They'll never let it fly giving archers the ability to gank at 2000 range. Early DAOC was like that which is why they put in self-casted bubble in the first place.
What might work would be letting crit shot damage spill over through the bubble. 40 bow = 15% crit shot damage spillover, 45 bow = 25% crit shot spill, 50 bow = 50% spillover.
What might work would be letting crit shot damage spill over through the bubble. 40 bow = 15% crit shot damage spillover, 45 bow = 25% crit shot spill, 50 bow = 50% spillover.
Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:56 PM
by
Isavyr
waffel wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:53 PMThey'll never let it fly giving archers the ability to gank at 2000 range. Early DAOC was like that which is why they put in self-casted bubble in the first place.
What might work would be letting crit shot damage spill over through the bubble. 40 bow = 15% crit shot damage spillover, 45 bow = 25% crit shot spill, 50 bow = 50% spillover.
I wouldn't be opposed to this, but with less damage @ 45 + 50, because it would please archers to get something, while actually giving them nothing. Archers should be using a normal/quick-shot for the BT pierce, then crit-shot. If they insist on wasting their crit-shot to get a fraction of the damage, so be it!
Thu 28 Feb 2019 4:55 PM
by
Zansobar
There are multiple problems with Archers, some with bow and others with melee/stealth.
For Bow:
1) Damage is low as a function of bow spec - probably on the order of 10% to 20%
2) Achievable dex level is not high enough. Archer damage was balanced on live back in the day around buffbots since they were so prevalent. Here without bots and without being in a group getting main buffer buffs an archer will be at least 50 dex points lower than back on live in 2003 period. Every target still has the same AF as back in the day but the ability to get through that AF has dropped.
3) Arrows do not have a proper travel time. Back in beta arrows had too slow of a travel speed thus benefiting the archers, but that was removed and now the arrows do not have a travel time. The travel time needs to be reinstated at about twice the arrow speed (half the delay from firing to hit of target) as was in beta.
For melee/stealth:
1) Giving MOS for free and baking in an assassin detect advantage eliminates any chance that an archer in stealth could hit an assassin in stealth with a bow show before being perf'd in the face.
2) Taking away Physical Defense RA (and on top of that reducing it to 20% form 30%) is a big hit to archers in melee.
3) All the buffs to assassins here (it is obvious that the devs played assassins A LOT by the custom changes to buff things that weren't even a problem with assassins) has made archers just more fodder for assassins, way more than it was back in the 1.65 days.
For Bow:
1) Damage is low as a function of bow spec - probably on the order of 10% to 20%
2) Achievable dex level is not high enough. Archer damage was balanced on live back in the day around buffbots since they were so prevalent. Here without bots and without being in a group getting main buffer buffs an archer will be at least 50 dex points lower than back on live in 2003 period. Every target still has the same AF as back in the day but the ability to get through that AF has dropped.
3) Arrows do not have a proper travel time. Back in beta arrows had too slow of a travel speed thus benefiting the archers, but that was removed and now the arrows do not have a travel time. The travel time needs to be reinstated at about twice the arrow speed (half the delay from firing to hit of target) as was in beta.
For melee/stealth:
1) Giving MOS for free and baking in an assassin detect advantage eliminates any chance that an archer in stealth could hit an assassin in stealth with a bow show before being perf'd in the face.
2) Taking away Physical Defense RA (and on top of that reducing it to 20% form 30%) is a big hit to archers in melee.
3) All the buffs to assassins here (it is obvious that the devs played assassins A LOT by the custom changes to buff things that weren't even a problem with assassins) has made archers just more fodder for assassins, way more than it was back in the 1.65 days.
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:55 PM
by
imamo
My main is scout.
I don't care about damage. I do well. All I need is stealth balance! I want to be part of stealth war, I want to have a chance to survive against stealther, avoid them if I can.
I have 20+ plat value gear, have all charges(even abla, hot,dd) playing 50 shiled with mob5. Why? I just want to stay alive long enough to get some help. Slam purged = I m dead. If not purged land a crit shot, rapid shot poffff! Vanish. I m sick of this. PA+stun I most likely dead.
Bring mos back pls!
If I put more ra on mos I must have upperhand. In this stealt system I have zero chance against assassin's. Absolutely no chance.
Where is my psychical defense?
Where is my camo?
Where is my true sight,( clip range stealth detection, I m wet now)
Again I personally don't care damage. This stealth system needs rework first.
To contribution to topic;
I have 40 in archery and it performs well. I find my damage satisfying. But going over 50 should improve damage significantly . In this case 35 skill is enough and you get good damage for 35 skill. We need a little adjustment here.
I don't care about damage. I do well. All I need is stealth balance! I want to be part of stealth war, I want to have a chance to survive against stealther, avoid them if I can.
I have 20+ plat value gear, have all charges(even abla, hot,dd) playing 50 shiled with mob5. Why? I just want to stay alive long enough to get some help. Slam purged = I m dead. If not purged land a crit shot, rapid shot poffff! Vanish. I m sick of this. PA+stun I most likely dead.
Bring mos back pls!
If I put more ra on mos I must have upperhand. In this stealt system I have zero chance against assassin's. Absolutely no chance.
Where is my psychical defense?
Where is my camo?
Where is my true sight,( clip range stealth detection, I m wet now)
Again I personally don't care damage. This stealth system needs rework first.
To contribution to topic;
I have 40 in archery and it performs well. I find my damage satisfying. But going over 50 should improve damage significantly . In this case 35 skill is enough and you get good damage for 35 skill. We need a little adjustment here.
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:56 PM
by
Isavyr
Zansobar wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 4:55 PMThere are multiple problems with Archers, some with bow and others with melee/stealth.
For Bow:
1) Damage is low as a function of bow spec - probably on the order of 10% to 20%
2) Achievable dex level is not high enough. Archer damage was balanced on live back in the day around buffbots since they were so prevalent. Here without bots and without being in a group getting main buffer buffs an archer will be at least 50 dex points lower than back on live in 2003 period. Every target still has the same AF as back in the day but the ability to get through that AF has dropped.
3) Arrows do not have a proper travel time. Back in beta arrows had too slow of a travel speed thus benefiting the archers, but that was removed and now the arrows do not have a travel time. The travel time needs to be reinstated at about twice the arrow speed (half the delay from firing to hit of target) as was in beta.
For melee/stealth:
1) Giving MOS for free and baking in an assassin detect advantage eliminates any chance that an archer in stealth could hit an assassin in stealth with a bow show before being perf'd in the face.
2) Taking away Physical Defense RA (and on top of that reducing it to 20% form 30%) is a big hit to archers in melee.
3) All the buffs to assassins here (it is obvious that the devs played assassins A LOT by the custom changes to buff things that weren't even a problem with assassins) has made archers just more fodder for assassins, way more than it was back in the 1.65 days.
I disagree with Bow #1,# 2, and #3 though it's very subjective. I also don't think archers should have slow (backloading ability) of damage. There's just no reason for it. Overall, it's actually useful that the bow line is so flat in damage, because it essentially keeps the archer always range-relevant. They don't need more damage, simply more utility 35-50, imo.
Melee#1: I think Archers shouldn't have penalty vs assassins in stealth--though my opinion on this is preliminary. I would like to see how that effects assassins vs melee archers.
Melee#2: PD just allows archers to edge themselves to be better in melee than assassins--again, this is sloppy in my opinion.
Melee#3: I'm not sure what buffs these are.
Thu 28 Feb 2019 6:24 PM
by
HtGeist
Damage goes down at 50 because most enemies will be runnign buffs spec shield buff etc and have temp,and you do physical dmg if not shooting the arrow with bonus to their armor class..what makes life easy for assasins is auto buble ignore with cs styles taking 1/4 of your hits with con debuffand if melee class debuff their ws so you will get good evades if they swing back.then for extra sauce the lifebane dot ticking on top of a formidable dps class dual wielding. no pseudo casting archery here with magic dmg and dex making you shoot faster...no special shots apart from RA and critshot rapid fire.
Thu 28 Feb 2019 6:35 PM
by
semadin
The damage does seem pretty fine (as a reference, 50 ranger, rr3, not temped). If you scale damage much more over 50 (or 51, whatever) composite bow, then we'll end up with a lot of issues.
The conceptual problem lies in that there's almost no reason to go over 35 or 40 base bow (depending on your RR).
(as a side note, for rangers, there's very little reason to go over 40 PF as well, and some would say with the charges and buff pots there's little reason to do any PF)
Which is really strange design for a class which is supposed to be all about these defining abilities.
There should be a great benefit to sacrificing your melee ability (or some other part of the class) in order to have that bow ability.
There should be always benefit to the sacrifice of secondary spec lines that happens when you go higher than 40 in a primary - otherwise if there's such an insignificant reason to spec higher than 40, you end up with homogenized hybrid spec setups, and mediocre play all around). If I go 50 bow, I should have a great benefit to my ranged ability at the sacrifice of any melee ability. 50 PF should justify losing completely on either bow or melee (and partially on the other).
Personally the things I've found most problematic currently:
- Bladeturn, a non spec ability, completely nullifying my class defining ability.
- Being blocked on crit shot from stealth...how does that make sense (for that matter, evading arrows..lol)? Shields in general are frustrating, but I suppose that's part of just picking your target (although with shields, self bubble, and pets, it seems like the 'targets' I get to chose from are pretty limited)
- The range. While yes, we get lots of range for our shots, you can just run away. This is where the damage vs utility often comes in. I often don't do enough damage to prevent you from just running away, and I certainly don't have any utility with the bow to do anything about that.
- The stealth war. I'm not sure I care about changing the dynamic (if I really wanted to be an assassin hunter, I'd play live). Though I think if we want assassins to be archer nullifiers, then archers need to be waaaay more dangerous than they are. If I spec high bow, making a fight against an assassin a lost cause, then I should be wrecking everyone else with my bow. I'll concede being free RPS to assassins or any visi who gets the drop on me while I'm not stealthed, but the choice to go high archery needs to justify that.
I think there are interesting ways to boost the class defining archery line for each of the archers in ways which are unique to those classes (tying in with PF and BC for rangers and hunters, and with scouts perhaps lining up something for a high stealth/archery combination).
The conceptual problem lies in that there's almost no reason to go over 35 or 40 base bow (depending on your RR).
(as a side note, for rangers, there's very little reason to go over 40 PF as well, and some would say with the charges and buff pots there's little reason to do any PF)
Which is really strange design for a class which is supposed to be all about these defining abilities.
There should be a great benefit to sacrificing your melee ability (or some other part of the class) in order to have that bow ability.
There should be always benefit to the sacrifice of secondary spec lines that happens when you go higher than 40 in a primary - otherwise if there's such an insignificant reason to spec higher than 40, you end up with homogenized hybrid spec setups, and mediocre play all around). If I go 50 bow, I should have a great benefit to my ranged ability at the sacrifice of any melee ability. 50 PF should justify losing completely on either bow or melee (and partially on the other).
Personally the things I've found most problematic currently:
- Bladeturn, a non spec ability, completely nullifying my class defining ability.
- Being blocked on crit shot from stealth...how does that make sense (for that matter, evading arrows..lol)? Shields in general are frustrating, but I suppose that's part of just picking your target (although with shields, self bubble, and pets, it seems like the 'targets' I get to chose from are pretty limited)
- The range. While yes, we get lots of range for our shots, you can just run away. This is where the damage vs utility often comes in. I often don't do enough damage to prevent you from just running away, and I certainly don't have any utility with the bow to do anything about that.
- The stealth war. I'm not sure I care about changing the dynamic (if I really wanted to be an assassin hunter, I'd play live). Though I think if we want assassins to be archer nullifiers, then archers need to be waaaay more dangerous than they are. If I spec high bow, making a fight against an assassin a lost cause, then I should be wrecking everyone else with my bow. I'll concede being free RPS to assassins or any visi who gets the drop on me while I'm not stealthed, but the choice to go high archery needs to justify that.
I think there are interesting ways to boost the class defining archery line for each of the archers in ways which are unique to those classes (tying in with PF and BC for rangers and hunters, and with scouts perhaps lining up something for a high stealth/archery combination).
Thu 28 Feb 2019 8:52 PM
by
Horus
Ceen wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:18 PMI see archers everywhere even in the top tier ranks. Yet still all they do is ask for more
In the top 100 there are 2 hunters and 1 Ranger...
More an aberration that a trend any statistician would say...
And the Ranger is from a known organized RVR guild...maybe they let him run with them..maybe the hunters as well (which most archers never experience).
Thu 28 Feb 2019 9:21 PM
by
Isavyr
Horus wrote: ↑Thu 28 Feb 2019 8:52 PMIn the top 100 there are 2 hunters and 1 Ranger... More an aberration that a trend any statistician would say...
And the Ranger is from a known organized RVR guild...maybe they let him run with them..maybe the hunters as well (which most archers never experience).
Yamyam doesn't typically group, and it doesn't matter anyway because RP earned is a very coarse measurement that doesn't capture the nuance that goes into each classes earnings. For example, assassins are opportunists, and thus cannot always rely on situations provided to them, therefore their RP earnings are often not top tier. Meanwhile, the animist can camp a gate and farm far more RP. That doesn't mean assassins are broken, it's just that their niche isn't always going to be predictable. Furthermore, some classes--again, assassins--attract people who exclusively play that class, which will mean they earn more overall, though not per hour.
In my opinion, many of the archers complaints are understandable but misplaced--especially regarding damage. Archers have huge range! Just use your skill set to your advantage and don't expect kills every time. Archers could use a few touch-ups, for sure, but the sky is not falling. Use your strengths, accept your downsides and play to minimize them, or group up with assassins to cover your melee handicap, or visibles in corridors where they can hide.
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