Facilitate Painworking - Phoenix Freeshard

Any chance someone can look into Facilitate Painworking? I think it needs to either have a shorter reuse timer, or an extended use timer. Right now, the only way I can see a painworking necro do anything in RvR is by using this skill. If your pet is engaged in combat or has a dot on him, it can't use any spells, so it's stuck doing a base melee till it dies. Facilitate Painworking allows you 2-3 casts (if you time it right in the hectic mess if you can even see your pet) that you can use uninterrupted. Playing in RvR the last few weeks, I can see why there's been a running joke about necros in RvR, because they can't really do anything. You either get snared/sleep and have to pop a purge, then it happens again and you're without it, or you're forced to do melee only fighting since your pet can't cast when taking any form of damage.

It wouldn't be so bad if you got RPs for debuffing or slowing enemies, but you don't, so your pet has to be in the middle of battle, meaning it can't cast anything without facilitate painworking, and when you can only cast 2, maybe 3 times before you're stuck waiting for your innevitable death, it doesn't seem to be worth continuing with.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:12 AM by Keelia

Then don’t play a necro. Pretty sure everyone has come to grips with the fact that they have no place in 8 man.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:18 AM by teiloh

Painworking took a huge nerf with the DoT interrupt change, which was by all evidence a feature rather than a bug - Mythic even designed the Enchanter RR5 and future Enchanter reworks off of this.

I'd say Painworking needs a touch-up after that nerf. Maybe higher tiers of FP and definitely some improvements to the DoTs.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:23 AM by Zansobar

Other spec lines get instant cast spells so you don't have to rely on FP.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:10 AM by jg777

Keelia wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:12 AM
Then don’t play a necro. Pretty sure everyone has come to grips with the fact that they have no place in 8 man.

This isn’t the way to solve an issue and Phoenix staff clearly have the attitude that all classes should be a viable option (hence the adjustments to many hybrid classes already). The “then don’t play it and accept it’s useless” attitude is really unacceptable here on Phoenix. We should be appealing and giving ideas to help make more/all classes reasonably playable in RvR. One of the hallmark traits of DAoC is the sheer amount of classes to be played- let’s try to promote that to its fullest.

I think Necro’s need to be adjusted, possibly reworked in their functionality if need be, so they have something positive to bring to groups.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 7:00 AM by Sepplord

jg777 wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:10 AM
Keelia wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:12 AM
Then don’t play a necro. Pretty sure everyone has come to grips with the fact that they have no place in 8 man.

This isn’t the way to solve an issue and Phoenix staff clearly have the attitude that all classes should be a viable option (hence the adjustments to many hybrid classes already). The “then don’t play it and accept it’s useless” attitude is really unacceptable here on Phoenix. We should be appealing and giving ideas to help make more/all classes reasonably playable in RvR. One of the hallmark traits of DAoC is the sheer amount of classes to be played- let’s try to promote that to its fullest.

I think Necro’s need to be adjusted, possibly reworked in their functionality if need be, so they have something positive to bring to groups.

I fully agree with the opening part, but i am not sure making necros stronger in groups is a good decision. The thing is, to change peoples minds about necros in groups you would have to make them MUCH stronger than needed. THat's sadly just the way peoples minds work. Necros being decent is not enough, because in everyones mind necros suck and are not fotm.

Additionally necros are already a powerhouse in PvE and a monster powerhouse in 1vs1 or smallmen VS melees. If they get buffed in groups, i think the class would become broken and would need to lose significant strength in other parts of the game (which will make everyone who made a necro for their current strength be dissapointed)

Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:49 PM by Kyosji

As a necro player, I have no problem with losing even up to half the damage as long as I can keep casting while being attacked. As it stands now, once the pet takes any damage, the whole painworking skill line, minus the self buff and the str/con debuff, becomes useless. Nearly everything in that line revolves around the pet casting, not your shade, so it honestly becomes a "What's the point" if you can't kill things within the 3 shots you get off with Facilitate Painworking. For PvE I guess it's fine, although you're limiting yourself to mainly blues and some yellows, but in PvP it amounts to near nothing when you consider clouds of anything doing something to your pet to interrupt it non stop.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:56 PM by Sepplord

Kyosji wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 12:49 PM
As a necro player, I have no problem with losing even up to half the damage as long as I can keep casting while being attacked. As it stands now, once the pet takes any damage, the whole painworking skill line, minus the self buff and the str/con debuff, becomes useless. Nearly everything in that line revolves around the pet casting, not your shade, so it honestly becomes a "What's the point" if you can't kill things within the 3 shots you get off with Facilitate Painworking. For PvE I guess it's fine, although you're limiting yourself to mainly blues and some yellows, but in PvP it amounts to near nothing when you consider clouds of anything doing something to your pet to interrupt it non stop.

for us non-necro players: is it different for a necro and a normal caster? a normal caster also can't cast while he is being attacked. They are also interuptted by anything sneezing in their general direction.
Or are you talking about something different from the usual interuppt that only happens to necros?

Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:01 PM by Kyosji

Necro pets have to be in the battle, not outside of it. Necros don't have the best range for spells, adn their useful ones need to be close. You also aren't your pet, so your pet in a RvR battle easily gets lost. You have 2 real options, set your pet to passive and do medium distance spells that don't do much besides debuff and slow, which don't give realm points, or you or your pet goes aggro/defensive and you get in the middle of the fight, hit FP, then get 3 nukes off before accepting your fate and dying. I've never been able to kill any player with 3 nukes with overcapped specs, so all you can really do is deal the damage and hope someone else finishes them off so you get credit.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:24 PM by Sepplord

ok, thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't aware that many necro spells have only shortrange from the pet.
If the interupt mechanics are the same as to other caster I guess it is the downside you get for being so tanky VS melee (or tanky in general for a caster) in combination with getting more spells per quickcast than other casters.

EDIT: i just checked the charplaner...am i missing something? What 3nukes are you doing onto an enemy after "going in"?

Deathsight has 1500range nukes, just like other casters
Painworking has short range, but works with DOTs...ofcourse three dots casted after another don't kill someone?
DeathServant is Bombspec, Bombs always have trouble going into a zerg without MOC

Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:41 PM by Kyosji

deathsight "nuke" is vacuum, which is nice, but it's literally a 1 trick pony you use for 2 main purposes, both involving PvE. It recharges your power so you use it for leveling up to 50 and being a battery.

The 3 nukes are only usable if you use Facilitate Painworking. It's a PBAoE attack called Infinate Death. The Charplan isn't 100% accurate. It states it's a 1500 range 350 radius. That's not true. I've tried to cast this spell at a distance many times, so if I'm not close enough to be in their agro range, it won't go off at all. Range feels to be around 350 with a 350 radius. Other things in the Charplan are incorrect as well, such as the Channeled Wrath spells. It's listed as a PBAoE, but it's a direct damage spell only.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:48 PM by kvothe

Only problem necros have is spending mana on nukes before the cast.
No further changes needed.

So just bump @gruenesschaf on this one.

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Feb 2019 6:18 PM
The mana consumption happens when it should but that's something that could be changed to something more friendly.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 2:09 PM by Zansobar

Kyosji wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:41 PM
deathsight "nuke" is vacuum, which is nice, but it's literally a 1 trick pony you use for 2 main purposes, both involving PvE. It recharges your power so you use it for leveling up to 50 and being a battery.

The 3 nukes are only usable if you use Facilitate Painworking. It's a PBAoE attack called Infinate Death. The Charplan isn't 100% accurate. It states it's a 1500 range 350 radius. That's not true. I've tried to cast this spell at a distance many times, so if I'm not close enough to be in their agro range, it won't go off at all. Range feels to be around 350 with a 350 radius. Other things in the Charplan are incorrect as well, such as the Channeled Wrath spells. It's listed as a PBAoE, but it's a direct damage spell only.

Most casters have spec lines that are nigh-on useless to primarily spec into especially in RvR. That is what you are running into. If you refuse to spec into Deathsight then this is what will happen in RvR. In Deathsight you have 2 1500 range DD spells cast by the pet and an instant cast lifetap that you cast and then gets cast through the pet while he is meleeing players. You could also off spec into Sight with your leftover points after maxing Painworking, but I assume you want those into the other line for the buffs....well you can't have everything. If you did off spec into Sight you would have instant nukes that would be half as powerful, so problem solved.

The Devs aren't going to go through every casting class and revamp each spec line so each one can be a primary spec and be viable in both PvE and RvR, it just won't happen. What they did is revamp some lines so the class is more viable.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 2:32 PM by Kyosji

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 2:09 PM
Kyosji wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 1:41 PM
deathsight "nuke" is vacuum, which is nice, but it's literally a 1 trick pony you use for 2 main purposes, both involving PvE. It recharges your power so you use it for leveling up to 50 and being a battery.

The 3 nukes are only usable if you use Facilitate Painworking. It's a PBAoE attack called Infinate Death. The Charplan isn't 100% accurate. It states it's a 1500 range 350 radius. That's not true. I've tried to cast this spell at a distance many times, so if I'm not close enough to be in their agro range, it won't go off at all. Range feels to be around 350 with a 350 radius. Other things in the Charplan are incorrect as well, such as the Channeled Wrath spells. It's listed as a PBAoE, but it's a direct damage spell only.

Most casters have spec lines that are nigh-on useless to primarily spec into especially in RvR. That is what you are running into. If you refuse to spec into Deathsight then this is what will happen in RvR. In Deathsight you have 2 1500 range DD spells cast by the pet and an instant cast lifetap that you cast and then gets cast through the pet while he is meleeing players. You could also off spec into Sight with your leftover points after maxing Painworking, but I assume you want those into the other line for the buffs....well you can't have everything. If you did off spec into Sight you would have instant nukes that would be half as powerful, so problem solved.

The Devs aren't going to go through every casting class and revamp each spec line so each one can be a primary spec and be viable in both PvE and RvR, it just won't happen. What they did is revamp some lines so the class is more viable.

lol, ok. I was max deathsight till about a few days ago when I swapped to a pw build. Why? Because it was more viable in PvP. It benefited the group more. You have the same exact problem on both ends, but now with Deathsight, your vaccume can only be cast twice instead of Painworkings pbaoe 3x through FP because they have a longer cast time. You're still running into the same issues. Your life tap is also not very good in RvR as you have to be rather close to your pet, and if it moves out of your range while casting, welp, spell cancelled and you have to move.

Now, I'm not saying the deathsight build isn't viable in RvR. It's just not group viable. Groups don't want you because you lack the debuffs that a pw build grants. You're also stuck with the same problems. Only difference now between casters and pets is that pets don't benefit from the concentration benefits you get from realm ranks. the two abilities you can build in to resist interruptions while fighting do not apply to pets. So again, you're now a caster with half the benefits of a player caster.

Painworking Necro: More useful in groups for debuffs and slows, but have next to no range for spell attacks and have to be in the fray to do the damage to gain realm points = needs facilitate painworking, which is only good for 3 attacks and that's it.

Deathsight Necro: Less useful in groups. Only has a single target AF debuff. Can deal some damage at 1500, but gains no benefit like other casters in RvR with MoC or Concentration.

Either way you look at it, in RvR, a necromancer is just a gimped caster with less benefits. If FP had either a shorter use delay or a longer use timer, it wouldn't be as bad.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 6:01 PM by lilrdmandy

Get the RA "Concentration", it resets the cooldown on Facilitate Painworking, giving you two, every 30s if you get the max level. This will net you 8 straight casts of spells whilst being hit at 100% dmg, which is far more than any other caster with MoC even at max level.

Enjoy.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 8:02 PM by joshisanonymous

I'm not gonna say that necros are great 8man classes, but dude, you're literally complaining about not having unlimited uninterruptable casts. Despite being a weird class, you're basically a caster, so you have to play like one, and that means living with interrupts.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 8:55 PM by FFpheonix

The toolkit for Painworking is pretty nice on paper but in RvR it is easily the least viable spec. I tested it briefly and found it to be very situational. Every spell that has a "cool" effect is limited and actually breaks the mechanics of competitive or end-game RvR.

Deathsight and Death Servant can fit in to groups or provide utility in other situations, where Painworking is generally bad in practice.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 2:05 AM by Kyosji

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 8:02 PM
I'm not gonna say that necros are great 8man classes, but dude, you're literally complaining about not having unlimited uninterruptable casts. Despite being a weird class, you're basically a caster, so you have to play like one, and that means living with interrupts.

And you're literally not reading the full issue. If your'e going to ignore everything said, don't bother posting.